Spell Casters Preposterous

[ddobard1]

Following each Update many Casters whine the loss of efficacy, and how they are declined in Raids, etc.
Correct me if I am wrong but aren't the Spellcasters the more capable at endgame. Some even post their solo Raid achievements. (Thank Deity its in Normal!)
Crazes!

[KillEveryone]

I actually play melee and caster types. I haven't found a class that I don't like to play because I like all the strengths and weaknesses of each class.

I just care about how some spells become useless to have.

I can handle firewall change. It is better for leveling stuff anyway. I don't mind the crit change overall.

I can understand having a spell work as it is technically supposed to but my issue with waves of exhaustion is what is in the name......exhaustion....part of the name and to me that means the spell should exhaust. The way the spell works is to actually weaken. It should be named "Waves of Weakening" because that is what it really technically does. Exhaustion means that person is very tired and isn't going to move at their top speed.

I wish there was more to do against bosses besides mostly dumping SP on damage. As far as I know, Waves of Exhaustion and Fatigue are the only two spells that actually debuff a boss and even then, Waves of Fatigue isn't going to be used since it doesn't actually...isn't supposed...to stack with Exhaustion. A wizard has all these spells, some I have used against trash but that is very rare and only when I'm soloing, usually energy drain and I only used it for Amarath and Eye of Titan and a few times in epic stuff when I'm trying to CC. In a group, you nuke, CC, and buff but you don't really debuff the boss.

I can understand immunities to a certain extent but I feel that the boss should have a really high SR and Saves so that for a caster to penetrate and land that spell they have to grind out all the TRs that give spell pen and DC. They should have all the necessary gear to get that DC up. Until they are twinked like that then they can go the SP dump for damage route.

I think a boss should have equipment so that I have a reason to memorize Mordjinkens<sp?> Disjunction and break the bosses gear so that the boss doesn't have as much DR/Resistance/STR...whatever is on the gear.

Give me a reason to use all these spells that I have because right now there just isn't much reason to have anything other than my archmage spec'ed and any elemental damage line of spells.

Make it difficult for me to choose my spells to load because since there are not many that really are useful, it is quite simple.

[testing1234]

Following each Update many Casters whine the loss of efficacy, and how they are declined in Raids, etc.
Correct me if I am wrong but aren't the Spellcasters the more capable at endgame. Some even post their solo Raid achievements. (Thank Deity its in Normal!)
Crazes!

and melee cant solo raids?
many melees can solo raids also.
being able to solo a raid in 2h+ instead of 20min is a pointless ability its just a 1time deal for bragging/sense of accomplishment.
the only exception is queen raid were caster/divines can solo it as fast as a party almost up to elite but since these days its possible to do epic were you reverse want mostly melees its infact a point against casters being allowed into a party.

you've never read a complaint from a melee?
dont think your correct in that casters complain more then melees infact you get lot more complaints from melees simply because there so many more of them the caster posts drown in a sea of melee.
look back to the 2weapon nerf awhile back on a whine scale of 1 to 10 think it was a 11, wasnt the main thread over 1k posts

[ddobard1]

A Caster gets many paths: nuker, CC, slayer, buff, debuff, ranged, even melee!

Exhaustion is useful in many occasions against thrash. The Community call them trash but they are thick nutshells usually, and duty is very nice! Come on! But He's no Trash... He's a Boss!

[ddobard1]

The Druids say: DO NOT, I REPEAT DO NOT MISTIFY!

Which builds are more capable at end game? The Casters, particularly Arcane Casters and fleshies FvS!

[kernal42]

The problem is that arcanes are perceived as less than useful in raids.

2 arcanes in an epic quest? Awesome!
2 arcanes in a raid? Mmmm, kind of a lot.

So while arcanes often have no problem finding groups to quest in, fitting into a raid can be much more difficult. This is why they're annoyed.

Cheers,
Kernal

[yawumpus]

and melee cant solo raids?

you've never read a complaint from a melee?
dont think your correct in that casters complain more then melees infact you get lot more complaints from melees simply because there so many more of them the caster posts drown in a sea of melee.
look back to the 2weapon nerf awhile back on a whine scale of 1 to 10 think it was a 11, wasnt the main thread over 1k posts

If not, the Touch of Death nerf was easily that long. I'm guessing the WOP-nerf whinefest had to be removed for space on the servers (I wasn't around for that one).

[KillEveryone]

Exhaustion is useful in many occasions against thrash. The Community call them trash but they are thick nutshells usually, and duty is very nice! Come on! But He's no Trash... He's a Boss!

I would say the groups you are running with are taking too long if you have to use this against trash.

Any group I have ran with has killed fast enough that tossing this on trash is pointless.

I stand by my statement that waves and debuff spells are useless agsinst trash. It is just a waste of SP.

[kernal42]

I would say the groups you are running with are taking too long if you have to use this against trash.

Any group I have ran with has killed fast enough that tossing this on trash is pointless.

I stand by my statement that waves and debuff spells are useless agsinst trash. It is just a waste of SP.

I pretty much agree.

Waves was useful for three things:
1) Slowing boss attack speeds (not WAI)
2) Lowering boss AC (WAI)
3) Slowing down the f'n kobold lieutenant, hoppy little jerk... (WAI)

The appropriate action would be to remove (1), because that was obviously a bug. The blanket immunity also removed (2) and (3), which makes the spell useless because there is no (4) Use on thrash.

Cheers,
Kernal

[kernal42]

K, suppose you are level 9 and questing Tangleroot elite. You must deliver the poison to the assassin Lhor-tragu. But 1 well armed army comes to fight you with a Hobgoblin Avenger leading, and now? No useful Exhaustion?

Nope, because Waves of Exhaustion is a level 7 spell that you don't have as a level 9 adventurer. Web would be the appropriate spell to use if you intend to slow them down.

[ddobard1]

K, suppose you are level 9 and questing Tangleroot elite. You must deliver the poison to the assassin Lhor-tragu. But 1 well armed army comes to fight you with a Hobgoblin Avenger leading, and now? No useful Exhaustion?

[Kaldair]

K, suppose you are level 9 and questing Tangleroot elite. You must deliver the poison to the assassin Lhor-tragu. But 1 well armed army comes to fight you with a Hobgoblin Avenger leading, and now? No useful Exhaustion?

Useful invisibility/haste... no useful exhaustion

I would like to point out one place where exhaustion is VERY useful.

Vs. players.

And i'm not talking about PvP, i'm talking about the mob casters who throw it at us. A big part of 3.5 PnP is that almost anything can be done by anyone who works at it. Anyone can grab rogue levels to learn sneak attack, anyone can grab cleric levels to learn to turn undead, and anyone can grab wizard levels to learn wizard spells, including the monsters.

If monster casters can learn waves of exhaustion, so can player wizards. So what if it's more useful to them than to you? Most debuffs are. It's how the game works.

Personally i'm waiting for the monster monk AI to improve to the point of them using finishers.

[ddobard1]

Invisibility what for?
You must defeat the Army, a super melee Avenger, Hobgoblin Champions crit at 60, and Hobgoblin Cleric who cast Hold and Flame Strike at-will 60 fire damage! All elite!

[Kaldair]

Invisibility what for?
You must defeat the Army, a super melee Avenger, Hobgoblin Champions crit at 60, and Hobgoblin Cleric who cast Hold and Flame Strike at-will 60 fire damage! All elite!

Who said you have to defeat them? run by, kill the three hobs around the chest with the key, run to the end, get the discrete bonus.

[muffinlad]

I actually play melee and caster types. I haven't found a class that I don't like to play because I like all the strengths and weaknesses of each class.

I just care about how some spells become useless to have.

I can handle firewall change. It is better for leveling stuff anyway. I don't mind the crit change overall.

I can understand having a spell work as it is technically supposed to but my issue with waves of exhaustion is what is in the name......exhaustion....part of the name and to me that means the spell should exhaust. The way the spell works is to actually weaken. It should be named "Waves of Weakening" because that is what it really technically does. Exhaustion means that person is very tired and isn't going to move at their top speed.

I wish there was more to do against bosses besides mostly dumping SP on damage. As far as I know, Waves of Exhaustion and Fatigue are the only two spells that actually debuff a boss and even then, Waves of Fatigue isn't going to be used since it doesn't actually...isn't supposed...to stack with Exhaustion. A wizard has all these spells, some I have used against trash but that is very rare and only when I'm soloing, usually energy drain and I only used it for Amarath and Eye of Titan and a few times in epic stuff when I'm trying to CC. In a group, you nuke, CC, and buff but you don't really debuff the boss.

I can understand immunities to a certain extent but I feel that the boss should have a really high SR and Saves so that for a caster to penetrate and land that spell they have to grind out all the TRs that give spell pen and DC. They should have all the necessary gear to get that DC up. Until they are twinked like that then they can go the SP dump for damage route.

I think a boss should have equipment so that I have a reason to memorize Mordjinkens<sp?> Disjunction and break the bosses gear so that the boss doesn't have as much DR/Resistance/STR...whatever is on the gear.

Give me a reason to use all these spells that I have because right now there just isn't much reason to have anything other than my archmage spec'ed and any elemental damage line of spells.

Make it difficult for me to choose my spells to load because since there are not many that really are useful, it is quite simple.

This summed up my feeling quite well. Being able to exhaust/wave end bosses was part of the CC of a Wizard/Sorc. Reducing that, and make the end bosses basically subjected to "Beat down" with Force/Cold Sauce or "Beat down" with no sauce....is very unsatisfying.

muffinsauce.

[MrCow]

Invisibility what for?

To avoid the need to fight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37sPKP9CZBE) said beasties.

[ddobard1]

No, you can't pass through the Hobgoblins wall, they are many! This army is about 10 Elite Hobgoblins led by the Avenger!

[Kaldair]

No, you can't pass through the Hobgoblins wall, they are many! This army is about 10 Elite Hobgoblins led by the Avenger!

Did you watch the video MrCow posted? cuz it showed a wiz invis and haste through the quest without killing a single thing... Ingenious Cunning bonus FTW.

[KillEveryone]

Here is an example of one reason why I don't like blanket immunities. A bit extreme but it demonstrates my point and why I feel blanket immunities are silly.

Farming Irestone Inlet for coins with my lvl 20 wiz. Banshee everything and finger what rolled a 20. Everything except one can be fingered or banshee'ed. The Boss, Yaryar, can't be fingered or banshee'ed because of blanket immunities for red nameds.

It isn't that I want to own everything in low level quests with those two spells. I easily dispatch Yaryar with my meteor swarm and have a host of other spells that can kill him in one shot and do the same in other quests that I farm.

It is silly that a boss in a lvl 4 quest is immune to those spells that I gained at lvl 13 and lvl 17 which are well above that bosses level. That boss, even if they had saves and spell resistance ramped up, should be able to be fingered and banshee'ed.

This is a low level quest example but it demonstrates my point of why I find blanket immunities silly.

Anything the game can do to me, I should also be able to do to everything else in the game. I wouldn't mind having the bosses in high level content incredibly difficult to land something but I should still be able to land it. I should have to be twinked to do it but I should still be able to land it.