DPS>> the 'ultimate' measure?

[Mike1w]

I constantly see posts, seems, about DPS ( damage per second ). While I agree that killing mobs is probably the most important single task, I don't view the game as such a 'one number' arrangement. In a balanced party, the healing and specialist classes ( cleric, bard, rogue ), especially, should be considered for what they bring to the party as their skills allow, and not just dps. Granted, I haven't played high lvl yet. But if you are looking for more damge, why not just bring more arcane casters and more melee types. I guess I need to learn more, but really, the healers and specialists have specific roles, and DPS is secondary to them. That's my opinion anyway. if I play a rogue, or bard, or cleric, I want to play it the way its created. In these cases, its skills first, damage second.

[BlackSteel]

noone is going to compare a healers or bards DPS to other classes whose only role is damage. You might compare a bard to a bard, or a battlecleric to other battleclerics. But all the damage talk is mostly just about comparing one build or damage class to another.

[Mike1w]

noone is going to compare a healers or bards DPS to other classes whose only role is damage. You might compare a bard to a bard, or a battlecleric to other battleclerics. But all the damage talk is mostly just about comparing one build or damage class to another.


Perhaps I misunderstood. It just seemed like I heard alot of things like " my rogue needs to have 250K DPS at lvl 3 or I won't play it. " Sorry if my exaggerated ( 250K LOL ) numbers are silly. I am just trying to prove a point. A solo build is one thing. If you mean to quest in a balanced party, OTOH, you should focus mostly on your class skills, irrespective of a specific number, even DPS.

[eonfreon]

I constantly see posts, seems, about DPS ( damage per second ). While I agree that killing mobs is probably the most important single task, I don't view the game as such a 'one number' arrangement. In a balanced party, the healing and specialist classes ( cleric, bard, rogue ), especially, should be considered for what they bring to the party as their skills allow, and not just dps. Granted, I haven't played high lvl yet. But if you are looking for more damge, why not just bring more arcane casters and more melee types. I guess I need to learn more, but really, the healers and specialists have specific roles, and DPS is secondary to them. That's my opinion anyway. if I play a rogue, or bard, or cleric, I want to play it the way its created. In these cases, its skills first, damage second.

DPS is the measure of a DPS build. It's as simple as that.
And there are different types of DPS.
And no one is suggesting that Utility and Specialist Classes don't bring a lot to the group.
Plus who knows what you'll get in a PUG. It's not always possible to "bring more melee or casters" unless you're talking about bringing friends and guildmates along. In which case you know what they bring to the table.
When I PUG and lead PUGS I do it with the confidence that my melee's DPS is very good. Therefore I don't have to worry about the rest of the players so much. And of course I want good healers, support, and casters when I can get them.
However, I can get by with "mediocre" assistance because I know my capabilities, which include DPS, Survivability, and Utility.

Simply stated: DPS is a big measure for a DPS build. And the state of the game, especially in HIgh End ELite content, very good DPS generally makes the run smoother, then say good defense.
That's my overall experience. And matters can certainly differ. A good high AC Intimitank can also make the run smooth, but you need the decent-to-great DPS to reap the benefits of that great support.

[Whargoul]

Not sure if there was a question in there, but play however you want. :)

However, most veteran players view that rogue primary purpose is DPS, and skills are secondary. It is good to know what assumptions you are likely to face when you bring your skill rogue into a party that expects a DPS focused rogue.

I agree with you that other non melee DPS classes are overshadowed somewhat, probably due to kill count being the only measure of your contribution.

[eonfreon]

Perhaps I misunderstood. It just seemed like I heard alot of things like " my rogue needs to have 250K DPS at lvl 3 or I won't play it. " Sorry if my exaggerated ( 250K LOL ) numbers are silly. I am just trying to prove a point. A solo build is one thing. If you mean to quest in a balanced party, OTOH, you should focus mostly on your class skills, irrespective of a specific number, even DPS.

The problem is that the Rogue's Trap abilities are needed far less then his killing abilities in the majority of the quests.

If you have a static group of friends and thus a "balanced" party, then that may be less of a worry.
If you're doing PUGS, you won't always get that balanced party.
And built right, Rogues are one of the best DPS classes in quite alot of content.

[Crann]

Killing bad guys is the objective, either directly or indirectly of most every quest/Raid in this game.

DPS is what drives DDO.

Support builds have a role in supporting DPS output, where it be by making others do more DPS, or by keeping them alive, so they can, you guessed it, do more DPS :)

Not saying thats the way I would have it in a perfect gaming world, but throw an entire group or DPS apes together with a healer, and there isn't too much you can't get done very quickly in this game.

[BlackSteel]

Perhaps I misunderstood. It just seemed like I heard alot of things like " my rogue needs to have 250K DPS at lvl 3 or I won't play it. " Sorry if my exaggerated ( 250K LOL ) numbers are silly. I am just trying to prove a point. A solo build is one thing. If you mean to quest in a balanced party, OTOH, you should focus mostly on your class skills, irrespective of a specific number, even DPS.

if you're not a healer or an arcane your role is DPS. (and the arcane one can be arguable, as they have very nice damage as well when they go nuklear)

rogue's trapsmithing? secondary to their damage as their one of the highest in game

all the other classes are there simply to hit stuff. theres no way around that.

a ranger, a paladin, fighter, barb. everyone is there to do damage. A monk can be great support, but is also there ultimately to kill stuff.

a bard is there to help everyone kill stuff more efficiently. If they do decent damage as well thats gravy.

the only class 'skills' that supercede damage are healing and cc focused casters.

[Mike1w]

I guess i'll need to find groups that will allow me to play the way I want, or else learn to solo. We'll see what happens. I play a variety of characters, so hopefully, with rotation, I can get my fix of all the different styles of play, whether by DPS or function.

[EyeRekon]

DPS is the only measure people generally care about outside of HP and Saves..
AC? Becomes irrelevant in this game
DR? Helps you survive but is not as important to success
SP? Comes in a pot if necessary, not as important as the yield of spells through gear and enhancements
Attack Bonus? It is not difficult to only miss upon rolling a 1

As content levels rise mob HP leaps. No other measure leads as directly to threat removal as DPS does.

DPS is calculable, measurable, and its effect is very uniform across content. It serves as a single, concrete way to compare warrior classes with each other. It may not be the only factor in comparing builds but it is a major one. Builds can justifiably trade some DPS for other features, sure. Still you can at least weigh that. -10 DPS for +3 Saves & 2 AC.

[Vanshilar]

Damage per second (DPS) is like miles per gallon (MPG) for a car. It's a pretty important quantity, and worth knowing, but not the only one that you should consider. It doesn't capture for example survivability, which is more to do with HP and DR (i.e. barb), evasion (rogue or monk or ranger), and so forth.

Nukers can do a fair amount of damage, but the problem is that their SP pool is limited. DPS Melees doing damage and taking damage in return, and a healer using his SP to heal those melees, is more efficient SP-wise (more damage done to target per point of SP), hence the most common arrangement for parties is melees in front and healers etc. backing them up. In some circumstances casters will do a lot of damage though, or can augment melee damage pretty well (such as with firewall).

Like MPG, the DPS figures that are commonly used on the forums are basically under "laboratory" assumed conditions, so they should be taken with a grain of salt. Hence..."your mileage may vary".

[BlackSteel]

I guess i'll need to find groups that will allow me to play the way I want, or else learn to solo. We'll see what happens. I play a variety of characters, so hopefully, with rotation, I can get my fix of all the different styles of play, whether by DPS or function.

i'm not sure how you're playing that somehow isnt a function of DPS anyway. (unless you're a stealth player, and like to sneak thru content, which is great n doable, but dont expect a party to sit idle)

I wouldnt worry about what most groups think of your playstyle, while leveling up its very easy to stay relatively anonymous. Everyone is too stoked about their own damage to really notice others. Unless 1) you're really really good 2) you're really really bad.

so if you beat everyone else 80 kills to 1, you'll stick out like a sore thumb. If you repeatedly grief and/or die in stupid situations you'll stick out

[ArloOne]

It can also be argued...

A cleric/fvs adds to DPS by : Buffs and keeping the melee type characters focused on continual damage and not worrying about have to kite around drinking pots to get back into the fray, by keeping them healed this class increases DPS.

A caster bard/sorc/wiz: Buffs ( stoneskin/blurr/displacement etc etc) keep melee types up and alive a longer not to mention the sacred attack increase with haste. Crowd control spells such as solid fog , web, hold monter all increase DPS.

Basically the way I look at it: The actual melee characters are my pawns..keep them alive and make them swing fast..I am the one who can increase DPS..

Just my perspective.

Happy Holidays!

[Phidius]

As long as Turbine believes that increasing the game's challenge is as simple as pouring in more HP and applying more blanket immunities, DPS will remain the ultimate measure of a build. Either you are pumping out the DPS, or supporting those who do.

Attempting to remain at the top of the pile means playing the game the way they want you to. Bucking the system can be fun, but is also very exhausting.

[krud]

Build to suit your playstyle, just realize that end game and raiding tend to favor the narrowly specialized builds (especially in the dps department). Raid groups don't always adjust to your playstyle, so you may have to adjust to theirs. It's usually the newer players that wish to explore all the possibilities available to their build, and therefore focus less on one particular aspect (dps in this case). That's perfectly understandable. After playing a while you'll come to realize the importance of dps; maybe not to make a min/max dps build, but at least to reach max dps potential for your particular build. Also, you'll see that sometimes you don't need to be great at everything else you do, when simply being good enough is all you need. Keep playing your characters, and with experience you'll be able to tweak them in all the right places to squeeze more dps than you thought possible, without having to give up on the other stuff you like to do. Just be open to advice and suggestions.

[grodon9999]

I play a rogue, or bard, or cleric, I want to play it the way its created. In these cases, its skills first, damage second.

Rogue = damage first. You'll still have enough skills to do any rogue thing if you maximize damage.

I'll agree with you that a lot of the talk in the forums is extremley one-dimensional about DPS being 100% the named of the game. It's much closer to 99% :)

And NOT ONE QUEST IN THE GAME requires everyone to be a "max-dps" build. Honestly I'd be shocked if "max-DPS" builds accounted for more than 1/10 of 1% of the players.

[DaSawks]

DPS is a measure of a toons ability to deal damage. WOW what a revelation. What are we really talking about here? Does the quest require toons to be the focus of the mobs anger. Can a group of 12 casters run through the Shroud? Maybe. Can a group of 12 barb/fighters do the same? Maybe. All groups need balance. If the damage dealing ability (DPS) is gimped or the casting prowess of the casters is gimped then the party is in trouble.

[Cyr]

Perhaps I misunderstood. It just seemed like I heard alot of things like " my rogue needs to have 250K DPS at lvl 3 or I won't play it. " Sorry if my exaggerated ( 250K LOL ) numbers are silly. I am just trying to prove a point. A solo build is one thing. If you mean to quest in a balanced party, OTOH, you should focus mostly on your class skills, irrespective of a specific number, even DPS.

Rogues are a dps class. They are not a support class such as bards or a spell casting class such as arcanes and divines. As such yes one of their primary build points is their dps.

Rogues can easily obtain very serviceable numbers in trapping and umd. Generally the problem comes from new players not realizing how much you can boost your trapping skill through buffs and items making them incorrectly believe that to do traps in the game you have to gimp your physical stats on your rogue. Another less common pitfall is the belief that most of the skills in the game have any significant value when in practice most range from completly useless to mostly useless.

[DaSawks]

DPS is a measure of a toons ability to deal damage. WOW what a revelation. What are we really talking about here? Does the quest require melee toons to be the focus of the mobs anger so the casters can cast with being attacked. Can a group of 12 casters run through the Shroud? Maybe. Can a group of 12 barb/fighters do the same? Maybe. All groups need balance. If the damage dealing ability (DPS) is gimped or the casting prowess of the casters is gimped then the party is in trouble.

[eonfreon]

I guess i'll need to find groups that will allow me to play the way I want, or else learn to solo. We'll see what happens. I play a variety of characters, so hopefully, with rotation, I can get my fix of all the different styles of play, whether by DPS or function.

I'm not really understanding your issue too much. You sound like you might've had a bad experience with some pain in the butt elitist or something.
Skills are very important. UMD for scrolls is a very strong trait for Rogues and Bards (and whoever else can afford to push it up). Trap finding and disabling can be very useful.
And in the endyou have to kill the enemies. Yes, much can be stealthed. But a balanced party will generally have those that can't stealth.
What's the use of you avoiding enemies that the Barbarian can't sneak past? Sneak past them to get an advantage, then let the Barbarian run up and anger everything, then you can help with sneak attack, and watch the dps skyrocket.
A Bard's utility comes with his spells and songs. Incapacitating a Mob is a form of "DPS".
And while healing Clerics and FvS are great. Ones who can assist with their spells to take out the enemies even before you take any damage are even greater.
In a static group it's easy to know everyone's role. In a PUG people have to feel it out better, and being built for multiple roles mean you can take up some slack. After all, if a Wiz/Rog multiclass can already disable the traps, they won't need a Rogue just for that.

[EKKM]

Excluding healers and arcanes, there are very few roles in DDO that cannot be accomplished while also bringing DPS (although healers can also do DPS). Consequently, if your specialist neglects DPS to focus on their primary role it is likely suboptimal. Obviously certain builds like tanks and bards won't have the DPS that a barb or kensei fighter does, but they can still be built to accomplish their primary role (tanking/buffing) AND contribute meaningful DPS.

You used rogues as an example, a trap rogue is almost useless in most of the content in DDO. For the investment of 3 feats and some build points in STR, you can still do all the traps in the game and contribute significant DPS.

Yes there are exceptions, spellsinger bards come to mind, but in those cases it is pretty clear that the benfits they provide by neglecting DPS are significant.

[Chai]

I see a formula here that either many do not see, or many disregard when they do see....

There are people who play this game like its a cookie cutter MMO where DPS means everything and they will sacrifice anything to get more of it on a build. They will justify every decision made by calculating the DPS for the situation they are building for. Raid boss max DPS, Epic auto crit max DPS, etc. The issue here is that once the "flavors of this update" have been determined, the max DPS crowd will crank them out by the hundreds, and then start showing off thier speed record completions....

Enter the nerf bat. BLAM!!!

At this point, its the max DPS crowd that moans the loudest and longest on the boards because their awesome build just got nerfed into mediocrity, as far as how they measure it anyhow. Remember when everything had a 6 ranger splash? Yeap.

Meanwhile, in other news, the rest of us who understand the differences between DDO and cookie cutter MMOs build for concept. That concept gets the job it was built for done before AND after the nerf. No messy LR or TR needed after every nerf in order to rebuild the toon for the new flavor of the month max DPS build. No need to bust out the spread sheet and calculation matrix to justify the new baby. No need to turn a situational video game into work, while putting all eggs into one basket.

[Mike1w]

I guess what I am really saying is that a character that isn't primarily DPS better be able to bring something in addition to just DPS to the table. A rogue or cleric can't generally compete with a melee or arcane caster for DPS. So they need something different to justify a party role. This would be whereever else they put there energy. Of course all other things being equal, support characters with the most dps win. But its those special skills, for non dps'ers, that set them apart.

[grodon9999]

I see a formula here that either many do not see, or many disregard when they do see....

There are people who play this game like its a cookie cutter MMO where DPS means everything and they will sacrifice anything to get more of it on a build. They will justify every decision made by calculating the DPS for the situation they are building for. Raid boss max DPS, Epic auto crit max DPS, etc. The issue here is that once the "flavors of this update" have been determined, the max DPS crowd will crank them out by the hundreds, and then start showing off thier speed record completions....

Enter the nerf bat. BLAM!!!

At this point, its the max DPS crowd that moans the loudest and longest on the boards because their awesome build just got nerfed into mediocrity, as far as how they measure it anyhow. Remember when everything had a 6 ranger splash? Yeap.

Meanwhile, in other news, the rest of us who understand the differences between DDO and cookie cutter MMOs build for concept. That concept gets the job it was built for done before AND after the nerf. No messy LR or TR needed after every nerf in order to rebuild the toon for the new flavor of the month max DPS build. No need to bust out the spread sheet and calculation matrix to justify the new baby. No need to turn a situational video game into work, while putting all eggs into one basket.


So true, I expect the next big nerf is to require Kensais to have a Lawful Alignment.

[krud]

I guess what I am really saying is that a character that isn't primarily DPS better be able to bring something in addition to just DPS to the table. A rogue or cleric can't generally compete with a melee or arcane caster for DPS. So they need something different to justify a party role. This would be whereever else they put there energy. Of course all other things being equal, support characters with the most dps win. But its those special skills, for non dps'ers, that set them apart.
what most here are trying to tell you is that a rogue is a great dps class. There are lot's of ways to get great dps out of a rogue, without sacrificing any of those other special skills you talk about. It just requires the right adjustments, either in build, but mostly in playstyle.

[grodon9999]

I guess what I am really saying is that a character that isn't primarily DPS better be able to bring something in addition to just DPS to the table. A rogue or cleric can't generally compete with a melee or arcane caster for DPS. So they need something different to justify a party role. This would be whereever else they put there energy. Of course all other things being equal, support characters with the most dps win. But its those special skills, for non dps'ers, that set them apart.

Don't believe what you read in the forums. There are some people here who are absolutely obsessive when it comes to one-dimensional DPS toons. There's other things that can be brought to the table that can be a benefit to the party. Self healing is huge. If your rogue can scroll-heal you'll save a wipe when something goes bad. I'll never forget an EVoN1 were were in where the Cleric DC'd in the middle of the arena fight. The monk, bard, and ranger survived and finished the fight while the barbarian was left dead after a while because we were tired of ressing him.

That said . . . your purpose of ANY melee class is to do damage and have enough survivability to live while doing damage. Rogues should be build for DPS as a primary concern. Will you be gimped if you don't go full-****** Half-orc with no versatility? Not at all. But the 8 STR 8 CON Mechanic (yes, they exist) is simply a joke as there isn't a trap in the game that requires you to be that focussed. "Tank" builds need to be able to hurt something. See that thread about the guys who wants to build an 8 STR pally-tank with 100+ AC. That toon will be useless in 99% of the game.

[Mercureal]

I guess what I am really saying is that a character that isn't primarily DPS better be able to bring something in addition to just DPS to the table. A rogue or cleric can't generally compete with a melee or arcane caster for DPS. So they need something different to justify a party role. This would be whereever else they put there energy. Of course all other things being equal, support characters with the most dps win. But its those special skills, for non dps'ers, that set them apart.

I think you're right in general, but a bit off on the specifics re: rogues. A rogue is a DPS class and doesn't need anything else to justify themselves. Granted, they're not suited to running and slamming headfirst into big groups of enemies, but they most certainly are DPS. The secondary skills they bring are just that: useful to very useful in situations, but not a main focus. And rogue specialist skills aren't on par to what a cleric, arcane or bard brings with them.

[Aaxeyu]

I see a formula here that either many do not see, or many disregard when they do see....

There are people who play this game like its a cookie cutter MMO where DPS means everything and they will sacrifice anything to get more of it on a build. They will justify every decision made by calculating the DPS for the situation they are building for. Raid boss max DPS, Epic auto crit max DPS, etc. The issue here is that once the "flavors of this update" have been determined, the max DPS crowd will crank them out by the hundreds, and then start showing off thier speed record completions....

Enter the nerf bat. BLAM!!!

At this point, its the max DPS crowd that moans the loudest and longest on the boards because their awesome build just got nerfed into mediocrity, as far as how they measure it anyhow. Remember when everything had a 6 ranger splash? Yeap.

Meanwhile, in other news, the rest of us who understand the differences between DDO and cookie cutter MMOs build for concept. That concept gets the job it was built for done before AND after the nerf. No messy LR or TR needed after every nerf in order to rebuild the toon for the new flavor of the month max DPS build. No need to bust out the spread sheet and calculation matrix to justify the new baby. No need to turn a situational video game into work, while putting all eggs into one basket.

Telling others what they should and shouldn't do again, are we?

[eonfreon]

I see a formula here that either many do not see, or many disregard when they do see....

There are people who play this game like its a cookie cutter MMO where DPS means everything and they will sacrifice anything to get more of it on a build. They will justify every decision made by calculating the DPS for the situation they are building for. Raid boss max DPS, Epic auto crit max DPS, etc. The issue here is that once the "flavors of this update" have been determined, the max DPS crowd will crank them out by the hundreds, and then start showing off thier speed record completions....

Enter the nerf bat. BLAM!!!

At this point, its the max DPS crowd that moans the loudest and longest on the boards because their awesome build just got nerfed into mediocrity, as far as how they measure it anyhow. Remember when everything had a 6 ranger splash? Yeap.

Meanwhile, in other news, the rest of us who understand the differences between DDO and cookie cutter MMOs build for concept. That concept gets the job it was built for done before AND after the nerf. No messy LR or TR needed after every nerf in order to rebuild the toon for the new flavor of the month max DPS build. No need to bust out the spread sheet and calculation matrix to justify the new baby. No need to turn a situational video game into work, while putting all eggs into one basket.

Who's talking about cookie cutter builds? The fact is for most people it's fun and practical to optimize as many aspects of a build as possible. DPS happens to be one of those aspects. Creating a pure Rogue whose only purpose is traps is as much a cookie cutter build as a max dps build.
The fact is so much discussion on the forums center around DPS because someone is generally asking about some aspect of DPS. Whether it be build, gear, or buffs.
Turbine is the one who has moved us closer to cookie cutter builds with Capstones and PRE's.
There used to be a lot more wiggle room before.
You don't get much more cookie cutter then having to stay Pure and following Turbine's PRE requirements.
The fact of the matter is "concept" builds have been hit a lot harder by Turbine then "cookie cutter" builds.

[grodon9999]

The fact is so much discussion on the forums center around DPS because someone is generally asking about some aspect of DPS. Whether it be build, gear, or buffs.

Also DPS, unlike many other aspects of the game, can be quantitatively measured with a reasonable amount of accuracy. You can measure utility in a spreadsheet.

[eonfreon]

Also DPS, unlike many other aspects of the game, can be quantitatively measured with a reasonable amount of accuracy. You can measure utility in a spreadsheet.

True.
Plus, while there are those who want to achieve "max DPS over everything and everyone else", there are those of us who simply want the max DPS we can achieve.
Because DPS is just another utility.
I also want to max out my UMD, my AC, and my HP, etc.
Since I don't have the time to research every aspect of it, it's nice that others have both the time and desire to do so.
I don't need spreadsheets to tell me how to play the game and measure my performance. But it's nice that it's available and the accuracy can be gauged should I want it.
It's just another tool in our arsenal.

[andbr22]

DPS is feroushisly important in DDO that is sad truth.
Raids are about DPS (VoD, Shroud, ToD), or abilities that you learn as player but not class specified (shroud puzzles, ravers puzzle, Necro4 raid, Titan).
Epics are all about DPS - sorry but my Dex speced AA have sometimes problems with hitting in epics (not like i have 100 diffrent ways to improve my dextrinity, like meles have with Str, i can only afford to destruct, and improved destruct enemies at begining), and as long as epics are easy and short, can contribute a little when I grab my holyburst maiming, and holy burst Pikes (this is funny especially in epic chronoscope when i laguht as one with the most of kills - this shows that many people don't even think about grabing 2 normal pikes for epics).

[Mike1w]

I will need to play each character so that I can balance individual DPS, with using other skills to boost others' DPS, or solve specific problems ( rogue traps ). Its a tightrope. I'll try to ignore those that fall hard in the forums onto the DPS,DPS,DPS,DPS,.... side of things.
And no, I don't play only rogues. I like to experience a variety, so I have every class, that f2p allows.( I might not have a ranger, think I'll start one.)

[Chette]

That's my opinion anyway. if I play a rogue, or bard, or cleric, I want to play it the way its created. In these cases, its skills first, damage second.


You should absolutely play your build the way you want to play it. But for most people this will almost always be damage first, because damage is what gets quests done. You can run past traps and knock doors, you can't diplomacy a monster to death.

The way that I see it is in terms of completion time. A high DPS rogue who can also open some doors and disable traps will help you complete a quest smoother and faster. A bard who can add +9 to the damage of every party member more than makes up for the difference between their own personal DPS and that of the barbarian next to them. A party member that can effectively keep the party healed and buffed saves the fighters from having to constantly stop swinging to drink potions. Balance is needed and leads to smooth fun completions, but DPS will always be important, and is the main contributor to completing most quests.

[yawumpus]

The reason for all this foolishness is that D&D is about the party. You kill mobs as a party, you loot as a party, you attempt to pike as a party, you wipe as a party, and you rise tomorrow as ghouls as a party.

So the question is not which build is the most uber, but who can bring the most to the party.

High DPS* can take at least half the slots of a full party. Other, more balanced toons, can take the rest. Note the "full party" emphasis. A short manned party will still need all the roles covered, but a pure DPS beast can only cover one.

Finally, DPS can mean one simple thing. A fast, clean run. Add up all the mobs hp (at least the ones you need to kill) and divide by the total party DPS (calculating the arcane's contribution will be difficult). That is the minimum amount of time you will spend in combat. Add that to the time it takes to run through the quest, open doors, remove traps, and loot treasure. Remember, the mobs have a certain dps to, and killing them faster means less damage taken.

[ddoer]

IMHO, any class except healer should concern about DPS. It's a matter of how you maximize your contribution to the party. Take arcane caster as an example, you could put CC as your first priority, maximize your enchantment DC, but there are many scenarios, such as most boss fight, that there is no need for CC. You can't just say I'm a CC caster and standing there to watch the melees fighting. Similar idea apply to a bard or even a 2nd healer. For rog, to me, they are simply a DPS class with trap skills.

[Dendrix]

if I play a rogue, or bard, or cleric, I want to play it the way its created. In these cases, its skills first, damage second.

In the vast majority of quests:
There are more than 50 monsters to kill and less than 3 traps to disarm.
If you are great at disarming traps and useless at killing monsters overall you are pretty much useless.

You have to play the way the game is meant to be played - online, with other people. not as if you were sitting around a gaming table.

[thx.janus]

I don't think its all about DPS. I think, its all about "getting things done" which means complete the quests as enjoyable as possible.
For most people this means: Completing as fast as possible without any deaths (which CAN be fun, shure, but there are many more aspects, at least for me).

I once spend like 3h in a quest (i don't even remember which one) with a full pug of people not knowing the quest. So we had to figure it out ourselfs, reading the dialogs and listening to the DM (which i generally dont have time for in new quests, because there is always someone who went through hundreds of times and who gives a newbie just as much information to not cause a wipe.) and we all had some great fun.

I also consider a quest run as a good run when i get some respect for my play style (e.g. some caster thanking me for constantly keeping up Alignment of Heavens) or when I save the party from a wipe due to the great survivability of my light monk or the greataxe-swinging barb who just loves to get insane dps due to my stunning fist, kukan-do, jadetomb, etc...

Shure, i can hand out reasonable amounts of dps with my monk when i can auto-crit. But there is no way to measure the whole damage which was handed out to the mobs because of my monk or to measure the damage not dealt by the mobs because of my monk.

So, as i said in the beginning, i think its about "getting things done". And while i dont think of my monk as a top dps toon, i think that he is an awesome gtdps (getting things done per second ;-) ) toon, which makes me AND others enjoy the time spend together. And thats what a game is all about, IMHO.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Even if you think killing monsters is the number one most important thing in the game, DPS is not the be all end all that people make it out to be.

For one thing, DPS fails to take into consideration many things. Like how often your weapons actually get on target. What kind of mob you are fighting...etc.

It really only is accurate against a critable mob who is sationary and does not fight back.

The not fighting back part is important, because you do zero DPS when you are dead. Or forced to take actions to prevent yourself from dying.

Crits are usually cited in DPS calculations.....but not all mobs can be critted effectively.

AC is sometimes a consideration.

People usually quote buffed DPS numers as well.....which fall apart as soon as the buffs are gone.

They quote rare raid loot....as if they are guaranteed to have it.

And of course they assume the mob will just stand there and let them beat on it....which I find is seldom the truth.



But for me....well I play for fun. And although feeling powerful and killing things is fun too, I need something more.

I need survivability first. Cause dying ain't fun at all.

I need versitility, cause for me the ability to do a lot of different things, a lot of different ways in a lot of different situations is very, very fun.

And I even need a little role playing in my build as well. Even though this is not really a role playing game, nor do I group with RPers....it's still an important D&D element to me. Maybe just in appearance, or bio.... but I usualy incorporate something into weapon selection and stats as well.
:cool:

[Broldin]

You'll see DPS arguments in every MMO for the simple reason that most classes are DPS and most party/raid members are DPS. It creates a huge competition for anyone who doesn't want to be tank/healer/support as they constitute a large percentage of the player population competing for party slots.

[AMDarkwolf]

I think this thread needs to die.


This is I believe, someone who sees a rog icon and thinks 'shroud has no traps to disarm' so clicks 'reject' on party join requests.

Move on. More to see elsewhere.