Can a guard break fascinate?

[RoelHeeswijk]

I've run with people who insist on everyone taking off their guard items in VON6 to prevent breaking the fascinate.

Theoretically it shouldn't be possible, because the moment fascinate hits this should prevent an enemy from attacking, and if he's not attack, he can't proc your guard.


But I can see how it could be implemented in a way that something like this could happen:
-enemy starts his attack swing
-song ends, that enemy becomes fascinated
-he still finishes his attack swing because it started already
-guard procs, fascination is broken
this would all happen with one second.

Or even :
-enemy starts his attack swing, deals damage. damage message is sent to client
-song ends, client sends a fascinate notification
-damage message is received by client
-guard proc is send by client, breaking the fascination

(note that I have no clue what happens clientside, just an illustration of why it is imaginable something like this could be going on)

Does anyone have any idea if this is just superstition, or a known and tested fact, or does one of the devs have enough insight in the code to know if this could happen?

I've tried testing it for myself by being beat on by a horde of low level mobs with an (always proccing) guard on.
Occasionally one troll wouldn't get fascinated (DC80), but it's still hard to tell whether this is because of presumed guard timing or becuase he saved with a 20 roll (which I assumed gives them an autosave)

[augie]

I believe that would be more of a concern if it's a DoT guard like Magma Surge as that would break the fascinate.

[RoelHeeswijk]

I believe that would be more of a concern if it's a DoT guard like Magma Surge as that would break the fascinate.

ah yeah, i can see magma surge and corrosive salt being a problem. but are you (almost) sure the rest is not?

[transtemporal]

I've run with people who insist on everyone taking off their guard items in VON6 to prevent breaking the fascinate.

I don't think its necessary. It would break the fascinate but its what, a 2-3% proc?

You've got more chance of them breaking from stray glancing blows. I've seen that happen a lot more than guards breaking the fascinate.

[RoelHeeswijk]

I don't think its necessary. It would break the fascinate but its what, a 2-3% proc?

You've got more chance of them breaking from stray glancing blows. I've seen that happen a lot more than guards breaking the fascinate.

The force damage on my cloak of night seems to proc a lot more than that.
And since i'm the bard i'm getting hit when the song ends.
Just not sure if the proc rate times the chance that a timing error occurs is still relevant, but failing 1% of the VON6s because of that is enough reason for me to not wear it.

[augie]

Well, I suppose there may be the possibility that a djinni could be prepped extremely close to death such that an inadvertent guard may proc the killing blow. That could potentially botch up a run. Although I can't see that happening very often for a number of reasons.

But as far as your example of songs ending at virtually the same time damage is dealt... well... I suppose anything is possible (and weirder things have happened in DDO) but the chances of that happening are very, very slim.

[RoelHeeswijk]

Well, I suppose there may be the possibility that a djinni could be prepped extremely close to death such that an inadvertent guard may proc the killing blow. That could potentially botch up a run. Although I can't see that happening very often for a number of reasons.

But as far as your example of songs ending at virtually the same time damage is dealt... well... I suppose anything is possible (and weirder things have happened in DDO) but the chances of that happening are very, very slim.

Good, i like my DR 5

[transtemporal]

The force damage on my cloak of night seems to proc a lot more than that.
And since i'm the bard i'm getting hit when the song ends.

Oh right, fair enough then.

[TheDearLeader]

Yes, Guards break Fascinate.

The problem is how DDO handles resolving enemy mob's attacks.

Example : Hold Monster on an Epic Melee Mob, such as the Bugbear Pirates in Epic Tide Turns (They have two swing attacks, both Double-Strikes, slow attack animation). The order of the mobs actions goes as such:

Attempt to Save.
Fail to Save.
Gain Blue Rings of "Hold".
Slide to a stop.
Resolve last action, while still appearing completely held. (Normally this is the one-two swing combo I described)
Fully stop moving and attacking.

So... this isn't a problem for Hold Effects, because them inflicting damage on you after the fact of the matter isn't a big deal. It hurts, yeah, but your various guards proccing won't cause a change in this pattern of events.

Fascinate, however, is a different story. Attempt to Fascinate same mob:
Attempt to Save.
Fail to Save.
Gain "Notes" of Fascination.
Slide to a stop.
Resolve last action, while still appearing completely fascinated.
If any one of those 4x melee attacks resolves in a "Hit", and a *single* guard goes off (from low procs like Lightning Strike, all the way down to the new Stormsinger Cloak's 1d6 Sonic Guard), mob instantly becomes un-fascinated, will continue normal combat actions.

Only Virtuosos can Entrall, meaning create a Fascinate Effect that is somewhat resistant to damage. For either Spellsingers or Warchanters, a single point off of damage off of a guard can, and likely will, break the Fascinate effect.

Hope this helps clarify things.

[Samadhi]

Well, I suppose there may be the possibility that a djinni could be prepped extremely close to death such that an inadvertent guard may proc the killing blow. That could potentially botch up a run. Although I can't see that happening very often for a number of reasons.

Heh it happened several times on my barbarian, to the point I pull out much earlier now (giggity).


But yes OP, guards most definitely can and do break fascinate, and DeadLeader's post is an excellent breakdown
of how it can be problematic.

[blitzschlag]

Well, I suppose there may be the possibility that a djinni could be prepped extremely close to death such that an inadvertent guard may proc the killing blow. That could potentially botch up a run. Although I can't see that happening very often for a number of reasons.

But as far as your example of songs ending at virtually the same time damage is dealt... well... I suppose anything is possible (and weirder things have happened in DDO) but the chances of that happening are very, very slim.

those things are prone to happen then. same with lightning 2 doublestrike proc on djinn.

[fuzzy1guy]

Monsters get 2-3 moves after a stop effect takes over. (hypno, dance, stun, hold, stone, facintate, ect ect ect)

If one of those moves was a hit on someone with a guard. And they were actually near enough for the 'hit'. And it procc'd the guard.

Yep. It will break if it was breakable.

Monster actions are queued up like 2-3 moves before what we're actually seeing.

Laggier people might see more moves. But even with the best connections most people see 2-3 moves after a effect hits the mob.

How you can sometimes end up dead at the feet of a statue in epics.

[sirgog]

Well, I suppose there may be the possibility that a djinni could be prepped extremely close to death such that an inadvertent guard may proc the killing blow. That could potentially botch up a run. Although I can't see that happening very often for a number of reasons.


I've had that happen a lot in Shroud part 2, although it's usually easy to recover there. My main wears three high-damage guards (Lightning Strike, Disintegration and Incineration), and if two of them go off in short succession, they'll kill a Lieutenant from 10% on Normal.

When leading eVON6, I usually request that people keep the Djinnis at 15-25% (not 5% as many groups do) so that you can avoid those little accidents.


As for trash - Dearleader described it perfectly. Fascinate prevents mobs starting new actions - it doesn't interrupt already commenced ones. I don't ask people to take guards off, however - I just have the bard fascinate each base twice if needed. Alternately, a Wizard (or some bards and some sorcs) can just hit the target with Irresistable Dance (to hold it for a few seconds) then Resistable Dance or Hypnotism until it fails a save (to hold it until the cows come home).