Take Cover!

[Gorbadoc]

You enter a long gallery. You see hobgoblin soldiers at the far end, and some of them are casters! It's too risky to charge down the length of the gallery to engage them in melee, so you pull out your bow and start shooting, using the door frame for cover. At this point, PnP and DDO diverge.
In PnP, the hobgoblins set up some cover of their own and maybe leave a fighter or two to guard their casters. Their remaining fighters try to reach your position WITHOUT getting killed, perhaps by sneaking or by taking a route that offered some cover.
In DDO, the casters stand their ground, letting you perforate them with arrows. The fighters rush straight toward your position, creating a nice opportunity for Improved Precise Shot.

DDO ranged combat is safe and easy. The only disadvantage is that the numbers stink. It requires a huge investment of feats to be any good at it. Even then, the DPS is amazing for only twenty seconds out of every two minutes. This bizarre timer system guarantees that melees have a chance to shine during the other hundred seconds.

I'd like to see archery DPS numbers improve, but to keep ranged combat from becoming too powerful, I'd also like to see monsters who are better at not being slaughtered by arrows. I have a couple ideas for how to make this happen, and I'd love to see additional ideas.



1.
Create a Shield-type monster. Treat part of their model as a solid barrier- capable of blocking Precise Shot and Improved Precise Shot arrows. Give them various AI versions, including a version to stand between casters and players, and a version to lead charges (thereby giving some protection to both the melee and caster hobgoblins in my opening example). Visually, such monsters should have especially heavy armor and/or a large tower shield.

These would make ranged tactics more interesting. The bow-user can try to outflank the shield monster, or she can get the party caster to Finger of Death the shield monsters for her.

2.
Give some monsters the spell Protection from Arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromArrows.htm). Modify it to grant DR 10/-, 25/-, and 40/- (according to dungeon difficulty) instead of its piddly 10/magic. Have casters in a room start casting it on themselves as soon as any one of them loses 50% of his hit points to ranged weapons. This would give even melee-specced characters an incentive to unload a little ranged damage; do enough damage with that throwing axe to get them to cast the spell, then while they're casting, charge to melee range.

3.
Code Wall of Fire to have a percentage chance to burn away a projectile passing through it, and code monster casters to set up Wall of Fire in front of them.

4.
Give some archer and caster mobs Whack-A-Mole AI. Code them to randomly pop out from behind a wall or door and randomly pop back. Better yet, code them to be sensitive to whether they're being rushed by a melee (in which case the thing to do is repeatedly shoot the charging warrior) and to whether they're being shot at (in which case the thing to do is to pop out as briefly as possible to take pot shots).

[Thornton]

The only thing your suggestions would accomplish would be to make ranged characters completely useless instead of just kind of useless.

/notsigned.

[Gorbadoc]

The only thing your suggestions would accomplish would be to make ranged characters completely useless instead of just kind of useless.

/notsigned.

Excellent point, and completely wrong! Currently, ranged characters are useful or useless* according to a timer (the Manyshot cooldown). My suggestions are all situational; they would make ranged characters useful or useless* according to the situation.

*: 'Useless' is the wrong word. A ranged character is not actually useless when Manyshot is cooling down; he just has limited damage output, so he needs to focus on key targets. A ranged character thwarted by my suggestions would either be inconvenienced (he would need to move to get a clear shot-- just like melee characters already have to do), or he would have his DPS lowered against certain targets.

[sirdanile]

I'm all for tactical AI improvement, especially in higher level dungeons.
Giving certain aoe effects the chance to stop arrows of a certain degree is OK if ranged was good, Say wall of fire has a 20% chance to stop any arrow of +2 or lower value.
Protect from arrows = a no no.
As for shield monsters... it depends, are they actually wearing shields? Implement a catch type ability for shield users and not just monks.

In any case, improve ranged to be balanced but good at most times, then implement things like this.

[Thornton]

Excellent point, and completely wrong! Currently, ranged characters are useful or useless* according to a timer (the Manyshot cooldown). My suggestions are all situational; they would make ranged characters useful or useless* according to the situation.

*: 'Useless' is the wrong word. A ranged character is not actually useless when Manyshot is cooling down; he just has limited damage output, so he needs to focus on key targets. A ranged character thwarted by my suggestions would either be inconvenienced (he would need to move to get a clear shot-- just like melee characters already have to do), or he would have his DPS lowered against certain targets.

Read what I wrote again. I did not say that a ranged character was useless now. All of the suggestions that you made would further decrease the effectiveness of ranged combat in the game. Now if you had actually made some type of suggestion to INCREASE the effectivenesss of ranged DPS to counteract your other suggestions, maybe the post would not have been so one-sided; but alas, you did not.

[Gorbadoc]

In any case, improve ranged to be balanced but good at most times, then implement things like this.

Yeah, I might have breezed over that in my original post, but I want there to be a correlation-- improve the numbers for ranged combat AND make it more challenging to use ranged combat in the same update.

[Gorbadoc]

I'd like to see archery DPS numbers improve, but to keep ranged combat from becoming too powerful, I'd also like to see monsters who are better at not being slaughtered by arrows. I have a couple ideas for how to make this happen, and I'd love to see additional ideas.


Now if you had actually made some type of suggestion to INCREASE the effectivenesss of ranged DPS to counteract your other suggestions, maybe the post would not have been so one-sided; but alas, you did not.
Um. Okay. I'll edit the original post so that it's harder to miss. No sense creating needless confusion, after all. Keep the ideas coming!

[Thornton]

Um. Okay. I'll edit the original post so that it's harder to miss. No sense creating needless confusion, after all. Keep the ideas coming!

Saying that someone MISSED something implies that there was actually something there TO miss. There are still no suggestions for improving ranged effectiveness. That's why the post is one-sided.

[Goldeneye]

Here's my idea:
Treat Many Shot like Power Attack.
make it a toggle-able stance, but have it give some serious penalty such as -10 to hit.

[Aeolwind]

The only problem I think here is the fact that mobs are probably more stupid in melee range than they are at long range.

"I'm going to keep chasing this guy, doing 0 damage, while the rogue behind me SA's me for 150+ a swing!"
"Oh, Look, a Wall of Fire/Blade Barrier. I'm gonna chase this guy in and out of it repeatedly!"
"Gha! This fighter is swinging at me, I'm going to continually jump backwards into this corner, never cast or attack until I die!"
"Man, that guy over there keeps healing this fighter to full every time I get him beat down. I wish he'd stop!"

[ormsbygore]

I think the idea is going in the right direction.

#1 - Ranged combat needs to be improved. From what I understand, the best rate of fire you can get(with a bow) is with a geared out lvl20 Arcane Archer with Ranger Capstone, Quiver of Alacrity, and the Gilvaenor's Set from ToD. That takes quite a while to be good at ranged DPS.

#2 - Tactical AI would be awesome, forcing us to think more, instead of rush/kill(even though if this were implimented most would still rush/kill).

#3 - Need more ways to improve cover, for both AI and Players. Be it Tank type monsters that take the lead vs. the players and provide cover for the other monsters behind them, or actual obstructions that you can stand/crouch behind that provides a percentage of concealment(like in PnP).

~Nim

*edit*
Well done Aeo...spot on.

[Vellrad]

Give some monsters the spell Protection from Arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromArrows.htm). Modify it to grant DR 10/-, 25/-, and 40/- (according to dungeon difficulty) instead of its piddly 10/magic. Have casters in a room start casting it on themselves as soon as any one of them loses 50% of his hit points to ranged weapons. This would give even melee-specced characters an incentive to unload a little ranged damage; do enough damage with that throwing axe to get them to cast the spell, then while they're casting, charge to melee range.


Only after players get it.
(Of course not so overpowered)

[Hokiewa]

No

[Templarion]

I think the idea is going in the right direction.

Well said and I agree in all three points you said.

[Memnir]

No.

[Aeolwind]

The issue isn't with ranged combat. Ranged combat is fairly close to PNP. The problem is, none of the rest of the game is close enough to PNP to allow ranged to be as effective as it should be.

But, I preface with this:

Tactics should be a large part of D&D:

Mobs need to use LOS better, both for their detriment & benefit.
Lone barb or fighter runs in the room, if no mobs have escaped the party, then they think he is solo & all jump him, but if one got away, 2 dive in, 4 hold back.
Mobs need a vicious, evil, demonic, sadistic driving force when it comes to trying to kill a party;
"Look, a Pelor Holy Symbol on that one, HIM FIRST!"
"The Robes! THE ROBES! THEM FIRST!"
Mobs & traps should actively try to punish players in every way possible. Forgot to have someone "near the rear"? Well, your wizard just got double SA'd and is now spurting blood like a water fountain.

Make dungeons & mobs hard by tactics & using the system, not by munchkin mechanics:

-Allowing any mob to hit a 65ac, much less require a 65ac.
-You shouldn't have to borrow virtual dice to roll damage. Ever.
-If anything lives through 2 Meteor Swarms & isn't a native to the Plane of Fire, or immune to fire, then it is broken.
-"That arcane had how many HP?"
-If the Terrasque stats look "weak" by comparison, then it is broken. (Already fulfilled)
-If the Terrasque stats look similar to your players stats, then THEY are broken. (Already fulfilled)
-If Black Balls or Draydens look like a "reasonable" challenge for your party, your game is broken. (Next Level cap increase, if there is one)

DDO boils down to a lot (NOT ALL!) of well written, well thought out quests that are plagued with terrible, terrible gameplay balance decisions, knee jerk reaction adjustments & mobs that could benefit from about 2 dozen +4 int & wis tomes.

I've DM'd for many years, the only truths in the game are players cheat, don't pull any punches, players cheat, ALWAYS be trying to kill them, players cheat, stick to the party CR (add 1 to frighten them, 2 to cripple them, and 6 to start a new game), & players cheat. Make us worry about protecting the healers & casters. Make the casters not have more AC than fighters in full plate. Randomize traps, make rogues "rogue" rather than remember. Don't care if you kill me with tactics, good battle plan or overwhelming numbers (Yes, sometimes you SHOULD run). But, munchkin mechanics that are used to make up for the serious design flaws are kinda sad.

[ormsbygore]

Well said Aeo...

[quickgrif]

The only problem I think here is the fact that mobs are probably more stupid in melee range than they are at long range.

"I'm going to keep chasing this guy, doing 0 damage, while the rogue behind me SA's me for 150+ a swing!"
"Oh, Look, a Wall of Fire/Blade Barrier. I'm gonna chase this guy in and out of it repeatedly!"
"Gha! This fighter is swinging at me, I'm going to continually jump backwards into this corner, never cast or attack until I die!"
"Man, that guy over there keeps healing this fighter to full every time I get him beat down. I wish he'd stop!"

Sounds like what happens with players in pugs I have run. :D

[Aeolwind]

Sounds like what happens with players in pugs I have run. :D

You've seen me play, haven't you? =P

[helicalius]

Artificial intelligence programmer
An AI programmer develops the logic of the game to simulate intelligence in enemies and opponents.[6] It has recently evolved into a specialized discipline, as these tasks used to be implemented by programmers who specialized in other areas. An AI programmer may program pathfinding, strategy and enemy tactic systems. This is one of the most challenging aspects of game programming and its sophistication is developing rapidly. Contemporary games dedicate approximately 10 to 20 percent of their programming staff to AI