Rogue PrE Costs need to be dropped

[jkm]

I was doing a comparison of melee PrE1s and was amazed at how much more Rogue PrE's cost than other melee classes.

Assassin 3 ends up costing 36 APs, the next closest is Frenzied Berserker at 30 (with 2 feats). Of the PrE's with no feat requirements, this is how they stack up.

Assassin 3 - 36 APs
HotD 3 - 27 APs
KotC 3 - 26 APs
Acrobat 2 - 22 APs
Mechanic 2 - 19 APs

note: this used to be much, much worse because neither of the pally PrE's had skill requirements. that change brought down assassin by 2, TA by 2, and Mechanic by 6.

The biggest problem child for Rogue PrE's is Tier 1. All 3 Rogue PrE's are higher than any of the other melee PrE's.

Assassin 1 -> 14
Acrobat 1 -> 14
Mechanic 1 -> 13

Kensai -> 11 + 2 feats
KotC -> 10
Ninja Spy -> 10 + 1 feat
FB -> 9 + 2 feats
HotD -> 7
Shintao -> 6 + 2 feats
Tempest -> 4 + 3 feats

Tier 2 generally sees a drop in AP requirements. however, once again assassin is tied for the high in AP requirements.

Assassin 2 -> 12
Shintao 2 -> 12
FB 2 -> 9

[Jaid314]

i would count the useless enhancements, personally, rather than total enhancements. you should be taking sneak attack enhancements and subtle backstabbing anyways. damage boost is fine because the prestige improves on it anyways. so you're left with the skill enhancements, which is only 4 points at tier 1, and you never have to invest useless AP again.

acrobat basically has 5 points (because faster sneaking is pretty garbage), but the rest of them are at least something you might consider (dex adds to saves and sneak attack, haste boost is amazingly awesome)

mechanic has at least 7; those who have gone the path of the mechanic most likely don't need silly things like +3 to disarm traps and open locks anyways. odds are good their numbers are already so high they're beating every trap they find on a 1, and opening locks on a 1 as well. and that they have more skill points than they know what to do with, so there's no point in putting fewer skill points into those skills either. skill boost is borderline as well, but it's probably useful for UMD if nothing else. improved trap sense is probably also overkill, but is borderline. 2 points of elemental resistance are just pathetic (even if it does stack), so i consider that wasted AP as well.

so overall, assassin is actually pretty good in terms of what it actually costs. the paladin prestiges i've never played, so don't know how worthwhile they actually are, but at a glance they look ok (KotC has some that look kinda crappy, but otherwise not bad)

[k1ngp1n]

Rogue enhancement requirements are hardly demanding, nor out of line with their purpose and capabilities.

[jkm]

Rogue enhancement requirements are hardly demanding, nor out of line with their purpose and capabilities.

so you really think that assassin 3 is worth a 20% premium over frenzied berzerker?
or how about a 50% premium over kensai which costs less APs then acrobat 2?
or how about a 180% premium over tempest 3 which costs 14 total action points?

this is worth 3d6 of sneak attack damage and a bunch of death attacks that don't work in 1/2 of the content above level 18?

ninja spy at 15 APs and 1 feat has the same sneak attack damage and its tier 1 ability actually works at high level.

[Thorzian]

try building a kensai 3 arcane archer. 36? pfft

[t0r012]

so you really think that assassin 3 is worth a 20% premium over frenzied berzerker?
or how about a 50% premium over kensai which costs less APs then acrobat 2?
or how about a 180% premium over tempest 3 which costs 14 total action points?

this is worth 3d6 of sneak attack damage and a bunch of death attacks that don't work in 1/2 of the content above level 18?

ninja spy at 15 APs and 1 feat has the same sneak attack damage and its tier 1 ability actually works at high level.

I'll trade you any 8 of those AP for Skill focus: haggle and diehard

how does that sound?

[Jaid314]

so you really think that assassin 3 is worth a 20% premium over frenzied berzerker?
or how about a 50% premium over kensai which costs less APs then acrobat 2?
or how about a 180% premium over tempest 3 which costs 14 total action points?

this is worth 3d6 of sneak attack damage and a bunch of death attacks that don't work in 1/2 of the content above level 18?

ninja spy at 15 APs and 1 feat has the same sneak attack damage and its tier 1 ability actually works at high level.

frenzied berserker requires feats, including the almost universally despised cleave feat that you should almost never use for any reason.
kensei costs feats as well.
tempest III costs 4 feats, including some rather poor choices. and in general, gives less than assassin anyways.

assassin is still widely regarded as the best choice for rogue dps. if there is a such a huge problem with it as you seem to think, it would not be the first choice for so many people.

[Draccus]

try building a kensai 3 arcane archer. 36? pfft

That's a horrible comparison as you're getting two PrEs in one charater.

Back to the OP's suggestion, as mentioned above, 20 of those 36 APs you are going to take regardless of your build so I wouldn't say 36 APs is out of line.

[jkm]

assassin is still widely regarded as the best choice for rogue dps. if there is a such a huge problem with it as you seem to think, it would not be the first choice for so many people.

this isn't about what is the best within a class. this is the about the cost of a rogue PrE's vs the cost of other PrE's. Rogue PrE's are 33% to 50% per tier more expensive than other melee classes without feat requirements.

as for the ones with feat requirements, its hard to price them because the class setup is so varied.

for example, kensai requires 2 feats for tier 1, 2 more for tier 2, 1 for tier 3. however, there is a ton of synergy here because the feats required are ones you would take with your main weapon anyway. (ie if you are going to use khopeshes, it makes sense to get the +2 to hit and +4 damage for slashing weapons). secondarily, fighters are given 7 bonus feats for 12 levels so it isn't like you are taking all 4 of your feats to become a kensai.

tempest is a different story. while rangers get a lot of free feats, forcing them to take 4 of their 7 is pretty harsh. however, even nerfed, tempest 1 remains the best splash of any of the melee 6's.

frenzied berzerker is probably the highest cost of all the PrEs. being forced to take cleave as one of your 7 feats limits severely the number of viable builds and splashes.

the monk PrE's are similar to tempest. they force you to use 1 of your 3 bonus feats for whatever. however, they are bonus feats so their cost isn't as much as the FB.

the pally ones are the key ones to look at. all of the rogue PrEs should be inline with the pally costs.

[TheDearLeader]

I'll add that Knight of the Chalice requires Aura of Courage II and Energy of the Templar II for Tier II. That's 6 AP right there of garbage that has nothing to do with what we actually want to do with our PrE. Also, the Tier II Faith Enhancement (Normally Unyielding Sovereignty) is nice, but many Paladins would skip out on it if given the choice between it and 4 more AP.

Didn't rogues just get back a buttload of AP from having the Skill-based Enhancements dropped to 1-1-1-1, instead of 1-2-3-4 AP apiece?

[jkm]

That's a horrible comparison as you're getting two PrEs in one charater.

Back to the OP's suggestion, as mentioned above, 20 of those 36 APs you are going to take regardless of your build so I wouldn't say 36 APs is out of line.

losing 25% of your APs isn't out of line?

KotC

Cost: 4 action points
Spent: 16 action points
Requires One of: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I, Paladin Divine Might I
Requires All of: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II, Paladin Energy of the Templar I, Paladin Courage of Good I

courage of good is horrible, energy of the templar is borderline (2 points out of 10)

Cost: 2 action points
Spent: 42 action points
Requires All of: Paladin Energy of the Templar II, Paladin Courage of Good II, Paladin Knight of the Chalice I

neither of these are particularly good so 4 out of 6

Cost: 2 action points
Spent: 66 action points
Requires One of: Unyielding Sovereignty, Silver Flame Exorcism, Undying Call, Bladesworn Transformation, Vulkoor's Avatar
Requires All of: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II

this one is dependent on race as some of these are pretty good.

so 6 (or 12) out of 26 are ones you wouldn't take. much less than the rogue ones because it is much much cheaper.

so saying this again, the cost of the rogue PrE's should be around 25-26 APs and are actually a lot higher than that.

[jkm]

I'll add that Knight of the Chalice requires Aura of Courage II and Energy of the Templar II for Tier II. That's 6 AP right there of garbage that has nothing to do with what we actually want to do with our PrE. Also, the Tier II Faith Enhancement (Normally Unyielding Sovereignty) is nice, but many Paladins would skip out on it if given the choice between it and 4 more AP.

Didn't rogues just get back a buttload of AP from having the Skill-based Enhancements dropped to 1-1-1-1, instead of 1-2-3-4 AP apiece?

as i stated above, assassins saved 2, acrobats saved 2, mechanics saved 6

the problem is that when you have a PrE that requires multiple tiers of a 1-2-3-4 it gets expensive in a hurry.

[TheDearLeader]

as i stated above, assassins saved 2, acrobats saved 2, mechanics saved 6

the problem is that when you have a PrE that requires multiple tiers of a 1-2-3-4 it gets expensive in a hurry.

As as I note in the quote you posted, the KotC prereqs don't reflect the class/build.

At least the rogue PrEs' prerequisites are more in line with what you'd expect to do with that class.

If a PrE costs 50 AP, but its all your toon wants or needs, you've still got 30 AP to play around with. If it costs 10 AP, but you still have 60 AP worth of stuff you actually need to be useful with that PrE, which one loses out?

[Jakarr]

OK while I may be wrong I am sure that Rogue PrE classes dont req feats like tempest of Frenzy.

Tempest req's 3 feats which are pretty worthless imo and frenzy you need cleave and greater cleave which I find usefull but useless again.

Feats are worth more imo then spending a few enhancements. Feats can make or break a build enhancements can but not in the same magnitude(though they are important to casters at times).

[Jaid314]

this isn't about what is the best within a class. this is the about the cost of a rogue PrE's vs the cost of other PrE's. Rogue PrE's are 33% to 50% per tier more expensive than other melee classes without feat requirements.

conveniently, assassin isn't just the best dps within the rogue class, it's just flat-out the best DPS. yes, it does require a certain optimal situation, but it's not a horribly rare one; there are far more enemies that can be sneak attacked than there are enemies that cannot be sneak attacked, with only undead being particularly common and completely immune (constructs, elementals, and oozes are also by default immune, but it's not nearly as crippling, since they are typically not as common, and many elementals rely on hitting your reflex save to do damage anyways, so it's more of a crappy offense vs crappy offense situation... constructs are still a bit of a problem, but tend not to be too hard to deal with, in my experience).

most of the AP costs are things that are useful anyways. the only real costs are the ones that are not useful, because the other stuff you were gonna take anyways (or at least, you should have been planning on it)

[Artos_Fabril]

OK while I may be wrong I am sure that Rogue PrE classes dont req feats like tempest of Frenzy.

Tempest req's 3 feats which are pretty worthless imo and frenzy you need cleave and greater cleave which I find usefull but useless again.

Feats are worth more imo then spending a few enhancements. Feats can make or break a build enhancements can but not in the same magnitude(though they are important to casters at times).
True, the tempest requirement for 3 feats is pretty harsh.
On the other hand, 6 levels of ranger gives back 2 tempest focused feats, 2 favored enemies, and the 3 free bow feats that, while not great due to the intentionally unexceptional implementation of ranged damage, still add some versatility and 20 seconds per 120 of decent damage potential.

BTW, why are we putting the damage boost required for assassin 1 in the "good" category? It actually lowers DPS when used in combat, and enable to use of the poisons, which are even worse than damage boost itself.

I don't know that I would say that Assassin is overpriced, when you look at the benefits in total. It is, however, a very front-loaded PrE. 11 AP for 1d6 SA, 2 more AP for the 2nd d6, and either 2 or 10 AP for assassin 3, depending on how you feel about the 4th tier of SAT/SAA.

If I were to propose an easy fix (as opposed to a difficult one like reworking poisons to be desirable, or at least worth using) It would be to change the damage boost requirement to Assassin 1 to Haste Boost II, which frees up 3 AP and brings it more in line with other melee PrEs.

[jkm]

conveniently, assassin isn't just the best dps within the rogue class, it's just flat-out the best DPS. yes, it does require a certain optimal situation, but it's not a horribly rare one; there are far more enemies that can be sneak attacked than there are enemies that cannot be sneak attacked, with only undead being particularly common and completely immune (constructs, elementals, and oozes are also by default immune, but it's not nearly as crippling, since they are typically not as common, and many elementals rely on hitting your reflex save to do damage anyways, so it's more of a crappy offense vs crappy offense situation... constructs are still a bit of a problem, but tend not to be too hard to deal with, in my experience).

most of the AP costs are things that are useful anyways. the only real costs are the ones that are not useful, because the other stuff you were gonna take anyways (or at least, you should have been planning on it)

ninja spy gets 3d6 of sneak attack damage for about 1/2 the APs.

the vorpal strike is pretty much irrelevant above level 18 since 90% of the available content has deathward. yes, until they come out with something different epic is >18 content.

[jkm]

True, the tempest requirement for 3 feats is pretty harsh.
On the other hand, 6 levels of ranger gives back 2 tempest focused feats, 2 favored enemies, and the 3 free bow feats that, while not great due to the intentionally unexceptional implementation of ranged damage, still add some versatility and 20 seconds per 120 of decent damage potential.

BTW, why are we putting the damage boost required for assassin 1 in the "good" category? It actually lowers DPS when used in combat, and enable to use of the poisons, which are even worse than damage boost itself.

I don't know that I would say that Assassin is overpriced, when you look at the benefits in total. It is, however, a very front-loaded PrE. 11 AP for 1d6 SA, 2 more AP for the 2nd d6, and either 2 or 10 AP for assassin 3, depending on how you feel about the 4th tier of SAT/SAA.

If I were to propose an easy fix (as opposed to a difficult one like reworking poisons to be desirable, or at least worth using) It would be to change the damage boost requirement to Assassin 1 to Haste Boost II, which frees up 3 AP and brings it more in line with other melee PrEs.

that would be the final death song of poisons.

poisons need to be salvaged and there are a myriad of ways they could do it -> better poisons, adding 2d6 elemental damage when the poison is active, adding the damage boost + to them while active (so +3 or 4 damage for 1 minute), adding extra sneak attack damage to it, etc.

[Jaid314]

why all the poison hate? it's 1 minute of +2 to hit and +20 to confirm criticals, even if the poison never even procs. loss of dps? maybe if you're an idiot and trigger it in the middle of the fight instead of triggering it while you're running to the fight (even then, if it's letting you hit/crit more often i bet it's a lot better ration than power boost since it lasts 1 minute instead of 20 seconds). heck, unless it's a raid boss or something, odds are good it will last two or three fights. and it can even be used at the same time as haste boost.

damage boost sucks, it is true. poisons? well, they could use some love, but really, they're not all that bad.

[Artos_Fabril]

why all the poison hate? it's 1 minute of +2 to hit and +20 to confirm criticals, even if the poison never even procs. loss of dps? maybe if you're an idiot and trigger it in the middle of the fight instead of triggering it while you're running to the fight (even then, if it's letting you hit/crit more often i bet it's a lot better ration than power boost since it lasts 1 minute instead of 20 seconds). heck, unless it's a raid boss or something, odds are good it will last two or three fights. and it can even be used at the same time as haste boost.

damage boost sucks, it is true. poisons? well, they could use some love, but really, they're not all that bad.
+2 to hit is situationally useful, and better the less well-geared you are. However, most damage calcs assume you're hitting on anything but a 1 already, and anyone who's intent on maximizing DPS has already made substantial effort to make sure that is the case. +20 to confirm crits, then, is even less useful, since you're already planning to hit on a 2, and you have more than 1 point of seeker, so you will confirm all your crits on a 1.

In less ideal circumstances, sure, you might get some use out of the bonuses to hit, but weren't we discussing things that were beneficial in the vast majority of content.

that would be the final death song of poisons.

poisons need to be salvaged and there are a myriad of ways they could do it -> better poisons, adding 2d6 elemental damage when the poison is active, adding the damage boost + to them while active (so +3 or 4 damage for 1 minute), adding extra sneak attack damage to it, etc.
I absolutely agree that poisons need to be improved, but until and unless Turbine decides to do this, (which is highly unlikely, given that a. Assassin is already considered a very good PrE and b. They just did a revision pass on it, and c. They haven't even completed the first pass on all PrEs) it would be more beneficial to us, as rogues, to have 3 fewer wasted APs than to have a nebulous promise to maybe consider possibly fixing poisons at some undetermined future date.

If I got to pick a fix for poisons, I think I'd go with ones that granted bonuses where rogues are weakest. Something like a "bonerot poison" for undead, "artificer's bane" for constructs, and "planar contaminant" for elementals

[AylinIsAwesome]

or how about a 180% premium over tempest 3 which costs 14 total action points?

Would you prefer Assassin 3 costed you this instead?

Rogue DEX 1
Rogue DEX 2
Hamstring Feat
Skill Focus: Hide
Skill Focus: Move Silently
Two-Weapon Defense


Because that's about what Tempest 3 costs.

[jkm]

Would you prefer Assassin 3 costed you this instead?

Rogue DEX 1
Rogue DEX 2
Hamstring Feat
Skill Focus: Hide
Skill Focus: Move Silently
Two-Weapon Defense


Because that's about what Tempest 3 costs.

literally? yes. in practice? no. if you'll notice, outside of FB (and radiant servant though unlike cleave empower healing is fairly common), feat requirements are only made to classes with a lot of bonus feats. rangers get a bazillion free feats so the loss of 4 feats isn't as catastrophic as it would be to a rogue.

heck i'd be okay if they dropped some of the AP requirements and made assassin 2 require opportunist and crippling strike.

[AylinIsAwesome]

literally? yes. in practice? no. if you'll notice, outside of FB (and radiant servant though unlike cleave empower healing is fairly common), feat requirements are only made to classes with a lot of bonus feats. rangers get a bazillion free feats so the loss of 4 feats isn't as catastrophic as it would be to a rogue.

Rangers get 3 free melee feats. Their PrE costs them 4 feats., all of which are pretty much entirely useless.

Rogue PrEs aren't that expensive, since most of the cost is things you'd already be taking. On the first page you say that it costs 36 APs. Well 10 of those we'd be getting anyway (Sneak Attack Training), 10 more is a maybe for some players (Sneak Attack Accuracy), we'd be taking Subtle Backstabbing anyway... Really the only useless requirements for it off the top of my head is Improved Hide 2, Improved Move Silently 2, and Damage Boost 3.


heck i'd be okay if they dropped some of the AP requirements and made assassin 2 require opportunist and crippling strike.

Every Rogue worth her or his salt would have those feats. Why should Assassin 2 cost nothing?

Plus that would delay getting Assassin 2 'till level 13...when the second Rogue feat was.

[jkm]

Rangers get 3 free melee feats. Their PrE costs them 4 feats., all of which are pretty much entirely useless.

Rogue PrEs aren't that expensive, since most of the cost is things you'd already be taking. On the first page you say that it costs 36 APs. Well 10 of those we'd be getting anyway (Sneak Attack Training), 10 more is a maybe for some players (Sneak Attack Accuracy), we'd be taking Subtle Backstabbing anyway... Really the only useless requirements for it off the top of my head is Improved Hide 2, Improved Move Silently 2, and Damage Boost 3.


well, technically it should cost them more than that as the prestige class its based off requires whirlwind attack. its part of the problem with porting a prestige class mainly taken by fighters to ranger. as i said before i'm not a fan of cookie cutter builds which is what the devs have made out of tempest. there is 10x the variety in how tempest's spell drizzt than there is in overall builds.

the value of the enhancements for a PrE is irrelevant as the value for those enhancements changes over time. there was a time when we got 2 points of sneak attack per enhancement and everyone skipped out on the 4th tier. subtle backstabbing is not nearly the enhancement now that it was pre-kensai/FB, because as their damage profile went up, so did our threshold for pulling aggro.

so therein lies the argument -> there is a significant difference between i WANT to take these enhancements and i HAVE to take them. thus the rogue costs need to be adjusted downward. however, i also understand the hesitancy to drop them. there is a high likelihood they just drop the high value requirements and keep the trash.

[jkm]

RaEvery Rogue worth her or his salt would have those feats. Why should Assassin 2 cost nothing?

Plus that would delay getting Assassin 2 'till level 13...when the second Rogue feat was.

really? because i see crippling strike as a "meh" anymore.

[AylinIsAwesome]

really? because i see crippling strike as a "meh" anymore.

These are the Rogue bonus feats:

Opportunist (Awesome)
Improved Evasion (Awesome)
Slippery Mind (Junk to most people)
Defensive Roll (Junk)
Skill Mastery (Ok)
Crippling Strike (Meh to Ok)


Pick 4.

[jkm]

These are the Rogue bonus feats:

Opportunist (Awesome)
Improved Evasion (Awesome)
Slippery Mind (Junk to most people)
Defensive Roll (Junk)
Skill Mastery (Ok)
Crippling Strike (Meh to Ok)


Pick 4.

what i'd rather they do is give us any feat in those slots like they do in PnP.

[dkyle]

literally? yes. in practice? no. if you'll notice, outside of FB (and radiant servant though unlike cleave empower healing is fairly common), feat requirements are only made to classes with a lot of bonus feats.

Warchanter's Weapon Focus requirement is also a pain. Not quite as junk as Cleave, but not good as Empower Healing.

I've always thought Rogue's PrEs were the most generous. Wasting 7 AP (skills and damage boost) is nothing. Fighters waste 14 (Attack boost, and Critical Accuracy). Warchanters waste 6 AP (Inspired Bravery III) and a valuable feat slot. KotC only wastes 6 AP, but Palis are very AP starved due to Sacrifice, Exalted Smite, and Divine Might.

[neclon]

Their PrE costs them 4 feats., all of which are pretty much entirely useless.

Comparing hamstring feat, and two weapon defense to what rangers have to take is a bit of an exageration: If I got TWF, ITWF, and GTWF for free, would I take the 4 that tempest requires if I only had to spend 6 AP on prereqs? Heck ya I would!!! But I'm a rogue so I'm feat starved, and they made assassin cost more AP instead of costing feats. Makes some sense.

OTWF isn't a worthless feat unless you're heavily geared. I have it and it's not a prereq for any PrE.

Honestly there's much better things to complain about in the rogue PrEs (in all of them really). In almost every class there's only 1 really viable PrE, which is silly. They've jacked with the D&D rules enough to make this game just about require max dps considerations. The only logical thing to do is make all PrEs (for dps chars) be capable of the same dps but have other flavor abilities.

for example: all rogue PrE's should give the 3d6 extra that assassin does... this would vary up the viable rogue enhacement paths quite a bit.
give mechanic II rapid reload and any other ranged feats that apply to xbow. it's still gona do relatively **** damage compared to TWF so it's not unbalancing.
give acrobat something like the monk/fvs jump =D

[jkm]

Warchanter's Weapon Focus requirement is also a pain. Not quite as junk as Cleave, but not good as Empower Healing.

I've always thought Rogue's PrEs were the most generous. Wasting 7 AP (skills and damage boost) is nothing. Fighters waste 14 (Attack boost, and Critical Accuracy). Warchanters waste 6 AP (Inspired Bravery III) and a valuable feat slot. KotC only wastes 6 AP, but Palis are very AP starved due to Sacrifice, Exalted Smite, and Divine Might.

warchanter/spellsinger suffer from the same problem the rogue PrEs do. IE that since they were the first 2 sets of PrE's they were a lot heavier on requirements than later PrEs.

fighters do not waste attack boost. they are trading 18.8 seconds of +4 to hit for 59.4 seconds of +4 to hit/+4 damage. that seems like a worthwhile exchange. (technically, they only trade +3 for this and then the last tier is to get +1 crit range).

critical accuracy then becomes the only "flavor" enhancement that kensai have. 7 action points of fluff. wow.

rogues trade +3 damage for...wait for it...1 minute of +2 to sneak attacks and +20 to confirm criticals.

[jkm]

Honestly there's much better things to complain about in the rogue PrEs (in all of them really). In almost every class there's only 1 really viable PrE, which is silly. They've jacked with the D&D rules enough to make this game just about require max dps considerations. The only logical thing to do is make all PrEs (for dps chars) be capable of the same dps but have other flavor abilities.

if there were ever a post a dev needed to read, it would be this one.

[dkyle]

warchanter/spellsinger suffer from the same problem the rogue PrEs do. IE that since they were the first 2 sets of PrE's they were a lot heavier on requirements than later PrEs.

I wouldn't say Warchanter is any more heavy than Tempest or FB. Tempest costs 4 feats, but Ranger gives 3 (melee) feats, meaning a net 1 feat loss. FB costs 2, but one (PA) would be taken by any sane Barbarian anyway. Warchanter costs 2, but most melee Bards want PA anyway.


fighters do not waste attack boost. they are trading 18.8 seconds of +4 to hit for 59.4 seconds of +4 to hit/+4 damage.

So they spend 6 AP on an ability they never actually use? Sounds like a waste. That "expend attack boost" part is meaningless fluff. The Devs could've just given Power Surge its own pool of charges. As it is, it's just a weak justification for requiring a lousy enhancement line.


rogues trade +3 damage for...wait for it...1 minute of +2 to sneak attacks and +20 to confirm criticals.

Wait... are you saying Rogues have to spend too many AP on Enhancements, or that they're "forced" to spend their action boosts on lousy things? Nobody uses those poisons. They're junk. Damage boost is also basically junk. You want haste boost.

[Draccus]

Ranger feats are a major advantage, not a disadvantage to the PrE, and another poor example in this discussion.

You get three feats for free that you were going to take anyway: TWF, ITWF, GTWF. The fact that they remove the dex requirement actually make them BETTER than the regular feats barbarians, fighters, and rogues take.

So the net effect is that you get Spring Attack, Mobility, and Dodge for free. Oh, on top of that, you get Manyshot, Bow Strength, Precise Shot, and Improved Precise shot for free even if you're not ranged focused.

Finally, the PrE prerequisites costs ZERO APs. Tempest Rangers have the LEAST to complain about.

[dkyle]

So the net effect is that you get Spring Attack, Mobility, and Dodge for free.

I would classify OTWF as junk for most Tempest Rangers.


Finally, the PrE prerequisites costs ZERO APs. Tempest Rangers have the LEAST to complain about.

There is a Dexterity II requirement for Tempest II. That's borderline for Tempest Rangers, leaning towards waste. Mostly just an overpriced point of Reflex save.

But overall, I'd agree that Tempest is a pretty generous PrE.

[Wraithkin]

No, it's fine as is. We don't pay a feat cost like other PrEs. Most of the AP we use up to get our PrE is points you would spend anyway.

[jkm]

So they spend 6 AP on an ability they never actually use? Sounds like a waste. That "expend attack boost" part is meaningless fluff. The Devs could've just given Power Surge its own pool of charges. As it is, it's just a weak justification for requiring a lousy enhancement line.

if you look at most of the PrE's the devs have taken the route of making an action boost better. the lone exception is barbarian who since their first boost with crit rage have always been excluded from any balance discussions (i mean, heck, if i had a choice between power surge or haste boost on the limited counter or expend 10 hit points for it i'd take the 10 hit point option every time).

[jkm]

No, it's fine as is. We don't pay a feat cost like other PrEs. Most of the AP we use up to get our PrE is points you would spend anyway.

you want to expalin why kotc and hotd don't have a feat cost either but cost 33% less?

9 action points is a lot of versatility in builds that rogue PrE's lack because they are forced to take the pre-reqs. my suggestion is that they remove a lot of the extra items so that people have a choice on what they spend their APs on.

[Wraithkin]

you want to expalin why kotc and hotd don't have a feat cost either but cost 33% less?

9 action points is a lot of versatility in builds that rogue PrE's lack because they are forced to take the pre-reqs. my suggestion is that they remove a lot of the extra items so that people have a choice on what they spend their APs on.

If you want those points back, stop taking 5 points of Dex from Enhancements. It's what I've done on my build. So far, no negative impact. It gave me the versatility I wanted/needed. Can't speak to mechanic, but I've had no AP issues on my Assassin or on my Acrobat so far.

And so far it seems you are reaching for things to cry out injustice. We are insanely versatile, we have some kick butt PrE's. We can do some of the highest damage in the game and have a skill set that is unparalleled if you build your character correctly. So a few classes have to spend less AP than we do for PrE's that I hear most of those classes complain about anyway. We don't have to spend feats for our PrE's. We are using a large chunk of those AP on things that most of us would take anyway. I don't think it's something that should take resources away from other things that could improved or fixed. I don't even think it's that "broken".

I used to even complain about poisons and the Damage clickie but read another persons post in another thread and use it all the time now. Preventing a caster from casting when he rolls a one? +2 to hit? +20 to confirm critical? I can use my poisons at the same time as my haste boost? Yeah, I'm fine with that one. Yes, I'd like more AP to get more haste boost, but I don't think it's broken and we should be rubbing ash in our hair and walk around wearing burlap while followed by professional mourners. You are forced to balance points to get what you want out of your character. It's part of building a character, sacrificing one area for another.

What do you want them to make you *not* take?

[dkyle]

if you look at most of the PrE's the devs have taken the route of making an action boost better.

Making an action boost "better" by replacing its effect doesn't make the action boost requirement not a waste. It still makes it fluff, the same as the Improved Move Silently enhancements you waste AP on.


the lone exception is barbarian who since their first boost with crit rage have always been excluded from any balance discussions

Rogues are max DPS, not Barbarians.


you want to expalin why kotc and hotd don't have a feat cost either but cost 33% less?

KotC has 6 APs of junk, compared to Rogues' 7 APs of junk. In fact, if I could drop Unyielding Sovereignty on my KotC I would; so that's another 6 points of arguable junk.


my suggestion is that they remove a lot of the extra items so that people have a choice on what they spend their APs on.

If you're referring to the enhancements that every Rogue should take (Sneak Attack Training/Accuracy, Subtle Backstabbing), then you're proposing a false choice. There's no real "versatility" from dropping those. Just pointless self-gimpage.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Comparing hamstring feat, and two weapon defense to what rangers have to take is a bit of an exageration: If I got TWF, ITWF, and GTWF for free, would I take the 4 that tempest requires if I only had to spend 6 AP on prereqs? Heck ya I would!!! But I'm a rogue so I'm feat starved, and they made assassin cost more AP instead of costing feats. Makes some sense.

OTWF isn't a worthless feat unless you're heavily geared. I have it and it's not a prereq for any PrE.

Try fitting in Khopesh on a non-Human Pure Ranger. Can't be done.

Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Toughness
Improved Critical
OTWF
Power Attack
Khopesh

That's 8 feats. Sure you could drop Improved Critical, but then you have the problem of not being able to use Lightning Strike effectively.

Let's do it on a Rogue.

TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Toughness
Improved Critical
Power Attack
Khopesh

7 feats. Add Quickdraw for a Human.


I don't see how Rogues are feat-starved.


for example: all rogue PrE's should give the 3d6 extra that assassin does... this would vary up the viable rogue enhacement paths quite a bit.

In current end game, the only reason to be an Assassin is for that extra 3d6 SA. Giving it to the other PrEs too would be a bad idea.


you want to expalin why kotc and hotd don't have a feat cost either but cost 33% less?

Junk enhancements I took on my Rogue:

2 Improved Move Silently 2
2 Improved Hide 2
3 Damage Boost 2

Total: 7

Junk enhancements I took on my KotC Paladin:

3 Energy of the Templar 2
2 Faith
4 Advanced Faith
3 Courage of Good

Total: 12


A big chunk of the AP requirements for Assassin are the Sneak Attack Training and Accuracy lines, accounting for a full 20 of the total APs. Another AP is spent on Subtle Backstabbing 1. Why a Rogue wouldn't take these anyway is beyond me.

[testing1234]

think people can make whatever point they want in a big balance questions like this, there is always some aspect you can bring up that support basically any claim.

not saying you should copy past the whole compendium then say see im right that would be idiocy on the highest scale but this small excerpts that compare only 1 small aspect while very easy to understand and read need to based on a firm understand off how most classes are currently.
and not many people are interested in playing all classes they have their favorits and as such have limited common sense when it comes to comparing classes.

myself for some reason the one class cant stand is fighter had lest 1 of all other but never a fighter, so the numbers is all i know about fighter. would never make a balance post about fighter class but i might make a balance post about another class even though thats based on the assumption its compared to among others fighter.
have a point to this will come back to it.

think the OP makes a good case for his statement in showing just the right information but possible he might not actually play couple of the other melee classes and so have no common sense to ground it in.
perfectly understandable conclusion to draw but cant help feeling like OP had the opinion then went searching for the right info the support it not the other way around, and the opinion was formed mostly from playing a rogue.
"grass is always greener on the other side", common saying

[neclon]

Try fitting in Khopesh on a non-Human Pure Ranger. Can't be done.

So you go from one exageration to another. Why does a tempest melee ranger need to be pure ranger other than to overexagerate your point? There's actually a valid reason for rogues to stay pure which is why they have fewer options for feats.


In current end game, the only reason to be an Assassin is for that extra 3d6 SA. Giving it to the other PrEs too would be a bad idea.

why is it a bad idea?

[Wraithkin]

I would say don't give all three PrE's 3d6 sneak attack. Those 3D6 are what define the difference between assassins and any other rogue PrE in end game. An Acrobat can very easily have higher base sneak attack and end up with much greater sneak attack without the use of those extra 3d6. Mechanics *also* get an opportunity for increased damage due to the addition of Int to ranged weapons. These are the balances between the PrE's.

Even from a role playing perspective, Assassin get more damage when exploiting weakness, Acrobats know how to effectively leverage their innate dexterity to effectively do more damage attacks and a mechanic can coolly step back, asses the situation and do additional damage with a level head.

[neclon]

I would say don't give all three PrE's 3d6 sneak attack. Those 3D6 are what define the difference between assassins and any other rogue PrE in end game. An Acrobat can very easily have higher base sneak attack and end up with much greater sneak attack without the use of those extra 3d6. Mechanics *also* get an opportunity for increased damage due to the addition of Int to ranged weapons. These are the balances between the PrE's.

If Quarterstaff wielding on an acrobat, or repeater could hold a candle to TWF dps then this argument would hold some water. My point was to equalize the dps potential while spreading out flavor abilities. If you can show that repeater mechanics and acrobat staff wielders can compete with assassin for dps then I'll support keeping it as is.

[AylinIsAwesome]

So you go from one exageration to another. Why does a tempest melee ranger need to be pure ranger other than to overexagerate your point? There's actually a valid reason for rogues to stay pure which is why they have fewer options for feats.

Overexagerate my point? You mean my point that a pure Rogue isn't nearly as "feat starved" as a pure Ranger?

FACT: Ranger gets 3 free melee feats. Tempest costs 4. Net loss = 1. It doesn't matter how you try to spin it, a Ranger is still short 1 feat than a Rogue.

Now sure, many Rangers will multiclass to get around this, but Rogues can multiclass as well. And doing so is a DPS loss in many cases for both classes (-2 FE damage and -1 FE for the Ranger, -4d6 SA for the Rogue).


why is it a bad idea?

If I really have to explain this to you, then you have no idea how game balance works.

Acrobat gets:
Knockdown immunity
Showtime
Faster movement
Quarterstaff boosts

Mechanic gets:
Tons of crossbow stuff

Assassin gets:
3d6 Sneak Attack
Vorpal stuff that doesn't work at end game


PrEs should be different from each other right? That's why all the PrEs aren't carbon copies of each other. Assassin gets some perks, Acrobat and Mechanic get other perks. To take Assassin's perks and give them to the other PrEs makes Assassin weaker by comparison when it doesn't need to be. There would be no reason to roll an Assassin if they gave the 3d6 Sneak Attack to all Rogue PrEs.

[LordPiglet]

eh, others pointed it out

[Wraithkin]

It goes right back to balance. You chose as an acrobat to go with a big stick build for higher base damage and critical damage against all mobs, trading out your insane sneak attack damage and the speed with two weapon fighting. It is not up to the Devs to make all classes or even PrE's equal. It is up to you as a player to figure out a build that you like and improve it in ways that suit your play style. Otherwise, why have classes at all?

[tgun]

literally? yes. in practice? no. if you'll notice, outside of FB (and radiant servant though unlike cleave empower healing is fairly common), feat requirements are only made to classes with a lot of bonus feats. rangers get a bazillion free feats so the loss of 4 feats isn't as catastrophic as it would be to a rogue.

heck i'd be okay if they dropped some of the AP requirements and made assassin 2 require opportunist and crippling strike.

You keep saying rangers get free feats so the cost isnt as high for them but what you seem to not realize is all (melee) classes get free feats. Those free feats are what is used to define the class from other classes. Rogues get free feats as well. They get evasion, improved evasion, 4feats they can choose, plus sneak attack(10feats? since you get a 1d6 every odd lvl).

SO Rangers have to use 4 of the 7 feats that everyone gets to qualify for Tempest3. A Rogue has to use 0 of their 7 feats to qualify for one of their pre. Thats a much higher cost for tempest. ITs also probably a good thing and working as intended because a ranger still has enough feats left over to finish getting the dps feats it doesnt have and a rogue needs all his feats, as you point out, to get those same dps feats. A rogue just has to spend more AP over the ranger to cover the ranger's cost in feats. Seems about right to me.

[neclon]

You keep saying rangers get free feats so the cost isnt as high for them but what you seem to not realize is all (melee) classes get free feats. Those free feats are what is used to define the class from other classes. Rogues get free feats as well. They get evasion, improved evasion, 4feats they can choose, plus sneak attack(10feats? since you get a 1d6 every odd lvl).

^^ this is how you form a feat-based argument regarding this topic. +1

Ranger: I'll trade you 3 1d6 sneak dmg feats for the TWF line and a solid PrE that costs no feats
Rogue: Pffffft, no way!!!!!!

I'm full assassin build and I don't really have trouble with my APs. Would I like to take some of the ones I don't have? Yes. But why have them cost anything at all if you are gona make it so we can take every good one?


It goes right back to balance.

Exactly... and the way it is now is not balanced. If you think otherwise, prove it with some actual figures with equvilent gear where the acro II or mech II can compete with the assassin in dps. Everything else you post other than proof is just sophistry and illusion (just finished philosophy 1301 and I have no idea what sophistry means other than what you can draw from the context here :-D)

[AylinIsAwesome]

Exactly... and the way it is now is not balanced. If you think otherwise, prove it with some actual figures with equvilent gear where the acro II or mech II can compete with the assassin in dps. Everything else you post other than proof is just sophistry and illusion (just finished philosophy 1301 and I have no idea what sophistry means other than what you can draw from the context here :-D)

The question isn't whether or not the three Rogue PrEs are balanced. We know they aren't; there's no discussion about that.

The question is however...should they be balanced by making them all exactly the same in DPS? And the answer to that question is no. Mechanic is for flavour builds...people that like using ranged weapons and/or have a particular affinity to crossbows. It's to make that style more viable. And quite honestly...it does a pretty good job at that. It's also supposed to help newer players disable traps and whatnot when they don't have the proper gear to do it. Acrobat is meant to simultaneously be defensive and give offensive bonuses to quarterstaves. The quarterstave thing is along the same vein as Mechanic; it's meant to improve the viability of that build. The defensive bonuses shouldn't be ignored either; many Rogue AC builds use Acrobat instead of Assassin. Plus, the knockdown immunity can lead to being more DPS against the Demon Queen if the Assassin gets knocked down even once.

So how to balance them? Really the third tier of Acrobat and Mechanic need to be released before anything else. Then some tweaks here and there and we should be set.

[Artos_Fabril]

The question isn't whether or not the three Rogue PrEs are balanced. We know they aren't; there's no discussion about that...
There's a pretty serious problem when you say "This PrE if you want to be good and contribute to your party, these other 2 are for flavor only." Don't get me wrong, I like flavor, and I don't think the 3 PrEs should be identical, but this situation is plainly indefensible.

...Really the third tier of Acrobat and Mechanic need to be released before anything else. Then some tweaks here and there and we should be set.
This is also true. Let's not get all up in arms about pushing for changes before the tier 3s come out. When you compare tiers individually, it doesn't look so bad... no wait, it actually does

Assassin 1: 7 wasted AP, +3.5 avg damage per swing (+ approx 3.5-6.3 per attack), situational 5 min of +2 to hit/shrine
Acrobat 1: 7 wasted AP, +0 to +6 avg damage per swing (2hf), +10% q-staff alacrity, 2 uncanny dodges, showtime (at the cost of haste boost is... dubious)
Mechanic 1: 6 or 8 wasted AP, LRC prof, int bonus to LRC damage +2 search/disable

So Assassin 1 usually wins, except when you are doing quests above your level and need the mechanic bonuses, or new players with insufficient gear. (or in the case of a high-dex low str q-staff wielder :P )

Assassin 2: 0-3 wasted AP, +3.5 avg damage per swing (+ approx 3.5-6.3 per attack), Assassinate
Acrobat 2: 6-10 wasted AP, knockdown immunity, 10% q-staff alacrity, 2 uncanny dodges, +10% move speed
Mechanic 2: 3-4 wasted AP, HRC prof, +4 save vs traps, +2 search and disable, 2 points energy resist all

Assassin 2 also wins, mostly. Knockdown immunity is really nice in some places, but not useful is most. Mechanic is possibly good at this level as well, except that by level 12 you're seeing fewer traps on the most commonly run quests and you generally also have sufficient +skill items (especially TRs with greensteel) that the bonuses it offers are minimal at best.

Assassin 3: 0-4 wasted AP, +3.5 avg damage per swing (+ approx 3.5-6.3 per attack), auto-vorp in non-epic content

No basis for comparison here, but mech and acro have a lot to make up for if there's any chance for them to be viable outside of niche/flavor builds. To be fair though, does any class have more than one "good" PrE. It's not as if this is a rogue-only problem.

[AylinIsAwesome]

There's a pretty serious problem when you say "This PrE if you want to be good and contribute to your party, these other 2 are for flavor only." Don't get me wrong, I like flavor, and I don't think the 3 PrEs should be identical, but this situation is plainly indefensible.

Acrobat should probably have some AC bonuses. It would really fit since many Acrobats splash in Monk anyway.

But Assassin should remain the best in DPS, because that's where it's goal is. That's why it really only have to bring a little to the table; just 3d6 Sneak Attack. The other PrEs need to being non-DPS stuff, but more of it to make them appealing. Assassin will probably remain the most popular though because DPS is queen/king in this game.

The two non-Assassin PrEs are good enough though so that there are actually justifiable reasons to take them. This isn't true of other classes; Hunter of the Dead and Deepwood Sniper come immediately to mind.

[Artos_Fabril]

The two non-Assassin PrEs are good enough though so that there are actually justifiable reasons to take them. This isn't true of other classes; Hunter of the Dead and Deepwood Sniper come immediately to mind.
Hunter of the dead is actually the better PrE for tier 1, and possibly tier 2, vastly more so if they ever get around to "fixing" the "bug" that has KotC damage working on undead. In which case HotD would become the PrE of choice up to about 14.

Deepwood sniper is in a triply bad position: first it's a ranged PrE, which is already an issue; second, only the first tier is out; and third, it's got to compete with both tempest and AA.


Each class should theoretically have 3 PrEs, and offensive (assassin), defensive (acrobat?) and utility (mech?) The problem for rogues may be that we already have so much utility, how to you give more to the mechanic? with defense in DDO being what it is, a defensive PrE needs to grant really exceptional bonuses to defense to make a difference, and then how do you balance a pure 20 acrobat against a 13rog/7 mnk, or even a 19rog/1mnk

[neclon]

The question is however...should they be balanced by making them all exactly the same in DPS?

But Assassin should remain the best in DPS, because that's where it's goal is.

Comparable to equal, yes. Let assassin keep 1d6 over the other 2, maybe, since in epics all the assassin flavor is meaningless. The min-maxers still have a maximum path to take, but if an acrobat rogue or mech rogue tries to join an epic they still can because the dps loss is not huge. Is this the only solution? No. But they're a lot less likely to take up a more creative idea (like letting a full blown mech rogue have useful traps such as mass hold monster with meaningful DCs, or an acrobat be able to boost DR or something defensive that might actually be useful in end game).


And the answer to that question is no. Mechanic is for flavour builds...

Why is it no? Saying it's for flavor builds is not an argument.

Flavor is another word for people who want a different play style so badly they're willing to have a gimpy character. PrEs should provide alternate *viable* builds, not alternate flavor (aka gimpy) builds.

Flavor builds is for those who want to build a char that just doesn't fit DDO as it's created (such as wizard fighters). A mechanic that the devs introduced themselves shouldn't be inherently gimpy (flavor). It should be a viable end game path so that variety is an option.


because DPS is queen/king in this game.

This is the problem. It makes me sad.



EDIT: Random thought -- acro II woo-woo stick 20 rogue with haste boost IV against auto-crit mobs... mayhem

[karl_k0ch]

Hunter of the dead is actually the better PrE for tier 1, and possibly tier 2, vastly more so if they ever get around to "fixing" the "bug" that has KotC damage working on undead. In which case HotD would become the PrE of choice up to about 14.


FYI: KotC does not apply its damage to Undead as of Update 7.

Random answer: Hitting held mobs with a Soulspitter on haste boost is one of the hobbies of my 13 rog/6 ran/1 mnk acrobat. :D

[jkm]

Acrobat should probably have some AC bonuses. It would really fit since many Acrobats splash in Monk anyway.

But Assassin should remain the best in DPS, because that's where it's goal is. That's why it really only have to bring a little to the table; just 3d6 Sneak Attack. The other PrEs need to being non-DPS stuff, but more of it to make them appealing. Assassin will probably remain the most popular though because DPS is queen/king in this game.

The two non-Assassin PrEs are good enough though so that there are actually justifiable reasons to take them. This isn't true of other classes; Hunter of the Dead and Deepwood Sniper come immediately to mind.

i guess i'm missing your logic here.

in PnP, an assassin does exactly as much sneak attack damage as an acrobat/mechanic. where they diverge is in special abilities ie poisons/death attack/spells vs extra uncanny dodges, etc.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Hunter of the dead is actually the better PrE for tier 1, and possibly tier 2, vastly more so if they ever get around to "fixing" the "bug" that has KotC damage working on undead. In which case HotD would become the PrE of choice up to about 14.

This is already "fixed", and KotC now suffers the problem of being too narrow.


Deepwood sniper is in a triply bad position: first it's a ranged PrE, which is already an issue; second, only the first tier is out; and third, it's got to compete with both tempest and AA.

While true, this just explains why this particular Ranger PrE is never trained.


Each class should theoretically have 3 PrEs, and offensive (assassin), defensive (acrobat?) and utility (mech?) The problem for rogues may be that we already have so much utility, how to you give more to the mechanic? with defense in DDO being what it is, a defensive PrE needs to grant really exceptional bonuses to defense to make a difference, and then how do you balance a pure 20 acrobat against a 13rog/7 mnk, or even a 19rog/1mnk

Well, eventually, all classes will have 3 PrEs. They aren't nessecarily offensive, defensive and utility though; the Ranger ones are melee, ranged, ranged. I'm betting all the Barb ones will be some sort of DPS increase.

Also, not all aspects of a PrE need to be utilized in every build that takes said PrE. AC bonuses to Acrobat would illustrate how dexterous they are, but only some will go for AC. Similarly, there are several Acrobat builds out there that don't even use a Quarterstaff at all.


Comparable to equal, yes. Let assassin keep 1d6 over the other 2, maybe, since in epics all the assassin flavor is meaningless. The min-maxers still have a maximum path to take, but if an acrobat rogue or mech rogue tries to join an epic they still can because the dps loss is not huge. Is this the only solution? No. But they're a lot less likely to take up a more creative idea (like letting a full blown mech rogue have useful traps such as mass hold monster with meaningful DCs, or an acrobat be able to boost DR or something defensive that might actually be useful in end game).

No, the other Rogue PrEs should not] get get 3d6 or 2d6 Sneak Attack.

Mechanic already gets INT to damage with crossbows, and Acrobat already gets DEX bonus to Sneak Attack with Quarterstaves. There's no reason for them to get 2d6 SA on top of that and the other benefits they already have.

Acrobat and Mechanic are geared more towards niche builds. While in general it doesn't means those two don't stack up as well in DPS terms to an Assassin, it also means that certain flavour builds are now possible. While you in particular might not like that the focus of those two PrEs is that...other people do. Your fun is not more important than their fun. Now granted, they do need to be buffed up, and a big part of that will probably come from the 3rd tier of each.



Why is it no? Saying it's for flavor builds is not an argument.

Flavor is another word for people who want a different play style so badly they're willing to have a gimpy character. PrEs should provide alternate *viable* builds, not alternate flavor (aka gimpy) builds.

Flavor builds is for those who want to build a char that just doesn't fit DDO as it's created (such as wizard fighters). A mechanic that the devs introduced themselves shouldn't be inherently gimpy (flavor). It should be a viable end game path so that variety is an option.

It's funny you bring up Wizard-Fighters.

I know of one player in particular who runs melee arcanes all the time. His builds aren't anything I'd call "gimp".

But of course saying it's for flavour builds isn't an argument, since it's a statement of fact. They are for flavour builds, both because some people enjoy the benefits those PrEs give. All the Rogue Q-staff users are Acrobats and all the Rogue xbow users are Mechanic for a reason...Turbine made those PrEs to heavily favour those.

While I can't speak for Turbine's intentions in doing this, they probably won't change these unless either PrE was heavily unpopular...which they're not.


This is the problem. It makes me sad.

Not really much I can say about that.

With the way Epic is now, it's not gonna change. I heard they were doing a reboot of it, though I have no idea if it'll make AC builds more important in Epic or not.


EDIT: Random thought -- acro II woo-woo stick 20 rogue with haste boost IV against auto-crit mobs... mayhem

Isn't that an example of where Acrobat is better than Assassin? ;)

[AylinIsAwesome]

i guess i'm missing your logic here.

in PnP, an assassin does exactly as much sneak attack damage as an acrobat/mechanic. where they diverge is in special abilities ie poisons/death attack/spells vs extra uncanny dodges, etc.

In DDO, Assassins don't have spells, the death attack doesn't work at end game, and the poisons are useless.

The devs gave Assassin +3d6 SA to make up for that.

[jkm]

Junk enhancements I took on my Rogue:

2 Improved Move Silently 2
2 Improved Hide 2
3 Damage Boost 2

Total: 7

Junk enhancements I took on my KotC Paladin:

3 Energy of the Templar 2
2 Faith
4 Advanced Faith
3 Courage of Good

Total: 12


A big chunk of the AP requirements for Assassin are the Sneak Attack Training and Accuracy lines, accounting for a full 20 of the total APs. Another AP is spent on Subtle Backstabbing 1. Why a Rogue wouldn't take these anyway is beyond me.

sneak attack accuracy 4 is just as junky as the faith tenants. subtle backstabbing is mainly useful in bad pugs.

and i want to point out this -> i made a classification of ALL of the rogue PrE's not just assassin. and i also pointed out that the biggest issue with these PrE's was that they were front loaded, not balanced throughout the tiers.

[jkm]

In DDO, Assassins don't have spells, the death attack doesn't work at end game, and the poisons are useless.

The devs gave Assassin +3d6 SA to make up for that.

and once again, i wasn't debating the validity of the PrE. i think the general design of them is horrible. they've done a much better job with archmage and pale master in creating a ton of options within a PrE. why you would ever code a single path for a PrE is beyond me. it takes someone 8 hours to whip up a prestige class and publish it in PnP. it may take 4-6 months of design/dev/testing to code one into DDO. you have to think outside the box to make multiple variants within it so that you aren't continually doing rework on it.

[AylinIsAwesome]

and once again, i wasn't debating the validity of the PrE. i think the general design of them is horrible. they've done a much better job with archmage and pale master in creating a ton of options within a PrE. why you would ever code a single path for a PrE is beyond me. it takes someone 8 hours to whip up a prestige class and publish it in PnP. it may take 4-6 months of design/dev/testing to code one into DDO. you have to think outside the box to make multiple variants within it so that you aren't continually doing rework on it.

What other direction would you have the current PrEs go?

Turbine won't delete them and come up with new ones...too much work for them.

So how would you change them so that they aren't horrible, but also aren't just different levels of Sneak Attack bonuses?

[justagame]

as i stated above, assassins saved 2, acrobats saved 2, mechanics saved 6

the problem is that when you have a PrE that requires multiple tiers of a 1-2-3-4 it gets expensive in a hurry.

The point is the true "cost" of a PRE isn't the total AP's required. It's the so-called "garbage" AP's spent -- not the AP's you would have (or should have) normally taken on that build.

[Wraithkin]

So, I pulled out some of my old gaming books this weekend because my DM and I both play DDO. We also play in a sit down. I play rogues in both cause I love me some rogue and have since I was 7. He asked if I wanted to make a big stick in our sit down game and I told him hell no, I'm a finesse rogue. However, it made me go back and read the rules for Quarterstaff cause he thought it was a finessable weapon and I said that was only in the Oriental Adventures. Subsequently, it isn't finessable. However, it did call out that the Quarterstaff is actually able to be wielded in two separate configurations.

For the acrobat line... Would you want the devs to actually add in the double weapon class? Currently in the in game mechanics, you use the Quarterstaff the same way you use an axe technically. You are grabbing it by one end and whomping the stuffing out of a mob. Using the double weapon, you use it so each end is an independent weapon and strike the opponent with either end for less damage. For attack rolls it is the same as wielding one medium and one light weapon. That would increase the strikes per round. You'd still get the two handed power attack line, you'd still have to use two handed fighting feats. This means you get fewer hits than a true two weapon fighter. However, you'd be able to strike the opponent quite a bit more and still have a Strength build.

Reflecting, that actually might be a valid way to round out the final tier of Acrobat. Tier III would grant the ability to wield Quarterstaff's as a double weapon, with all the bonuses and negatives that applies (Not many negatives for the uninitiated, go pick up anything since DnD 2.0 or Pathfinder and you can read up on it.)

Further, to enhance the Tier III Mechanic lines, there is actually a prestige class that might apply. The Duelist. This class gets 1d6 per every other level of PRECISION die and get to add their Int into their AC.

Canny Defense (Ex)

When not wearing armor or using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level to her Dexterity bonus to modify Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.

Precise Strike (Ex)

At 5th level, a duelist gains the ability to strike precisely with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, gaining an extra 1d6 damage added to her normal damage roll.

When making a precise strike, a duelist cannot attack with a weapon in her other hand or use a shield. A duelist’s precise strike only works against living creatures with discernible anatomies. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to a precise strike, and any item or ability that protects a creature from critical hits also protects a creature from a precise strike. At 10th level, the extra damage on a precise strike increases to +2d6.

Now, for the sake of balance, I'd propose we change the Precise Strike Feat to be better suited to this game. Make the Precise Strike work on Undead, Construct and Elementals. Also, make it apply every time you'd gain sneak attack dice, this means you'd be able to end up with 14d6 untyped damage against all mobs. To offset this, use the same feat pre-reqs that the duelist prestige actually has:

Feats

Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse

This might require a bit of tweaking obviously. Maybe have the Mechanic chose a favored enemy type to "Deconstruct", or have it work against only Undead and Constructs. I know it takes the focus away from being a "repeater rogue" but you can also look at it like this, the mechanic has learned the ebb and flow of battle through observation, this allows them to strike at the precise moment to cause the most amount of damage. This also lends to the understanding of how and where opponents aim, giving them the foresight to not be there.


With some of these changes, it would assist in balancing out the three PrE's and take the flavor classes a little further into the realm of as desirable as any other. These are obviously rough ideas, but I agree with above poster, it might take some time to balance out the three PrE's but we can't even begin to judge until such a time as they have released exactly what they are.

[jkm]

What other direction would you have the current PrEs go?

Turbine won't delete them and come up with new ones...too much work for them.

So how would you change them so that they aren't horrible, but also aren't just different levels of Sneak Attack bonuses?

you don't have to delete them you extend them.

right now there is only one type of assassin. all of us have the exact same abilities, etc.

however, lets say we split the special abilities out of each tier and lowered the main enhancement by 1

assassin 1
3 AP

assassin 2
1 AP

assassin 3
1 AP

now add 4 special abilities per tier for 1+ AP

now you've just introduced 125 different variants of assassin for minimal code. of course, 1/2 will be suboptimal but with that many variants 90% of the people who play the game will be satisfied.

[neclon]

Mechanic already gets INT to damage with crossbows, and Acrobat already gets DEX bonus to Sneak Attack with Quarterstaves. There's no reason for them to get 2d6 SA on top of that and the other benefits they already have.

Yes there is. And you've listed the reason yourself. Because with the boosts they have, their dps is still very inferior to assassin build. And dps is king. Logic follows that if dps is king and you want balance that each branch should have equal opportunity at the same level of dps. adding the tiers of sneak was an abstract suggestion. It can be implemented in different ways. You fail horribly at actually providing any logical support for why their damage potential should not be on par. All you keep saying is "it shouldn't be" which implies the only reason is because you say so. That is a valid reason in itself, but it's purely opinion. And I guess that's where the argument stands -- in regards to dps (which you state yourself is the most important thing in end game), you think the game should be imbalanced and I think it should be balanced (since if you balance the most important aspect you begin to open up many different avenues for variety among builds).

[AylinIsAwesome]

Yes there is. And you've listed the reason yourself. Because with the boosts they have, their dps is still very inferior to assassin build. And dps is king. Logic follows that if dps is king and you want balance that each branch should have equal opportunity at the same level of dps. adding the tiers of sneak was an abstract suggestion. It can be implemented in different ways. You fail horribly at actually providing any logical support for why their damage potential should not be on par. All you keep saying is "it shouldn't be" which implies the only reason is because you say so. That is a valid reason in itself, but it's purely opinion. And I guess that's where the argument stands -- in regards to dps (which you state yourself is the most important thing in end game), you think the game should be imbalanced and I think it should be balanced (since if you balance the most important aspect you begin to open up many different avenues for variety among builds).

But there is a valid reason.

Assassin is meant by the devs to be the biggest DPS PrE for a Rogue.

If you gave the other PrEs the +3d6 that Assassin gets...what would be the incentive to take Assassin when you could get the same damage and knockdown immunity from Acrobat?

Plus, the other PrEs do increase DPS, just not for TWF. Acrobat gives speed and damage boosts to quarterstaves, and Mechanic gives free prof in repeating xbows and INT to damage on all of them. Just because they don't benefit TWF the same as Assassin doesn't mean that they're "unbalanced".

They are unbalanced, but for a different reason; no 3rd tier of their PrEs. But just because they aren't the exact same doesn't mean they're unbalanced.

[Red_Knight]

But there is a valid reason.

Assassin is meant by the devs to be the biggest DPS PrE for a Rogue.

If you gave the other PrEs the +3d6 that Assassin gets...what would be the incentive to take Assassin when you could get the same damage and knockdown immunity from Acrobat?

Plus, the other PrEs do increase DPS, just not for TWF. Acrobat gives speed and damage boosts to quarterstaves, and Mechanic gives free prof in repeating xbows and INT to damage on all of them. Just because they don't benefit TWF the same as Assassin doesn't mean that they're "unbalanced".

They are unbalanced, but for a different reason; no 3rd tier of their PrEs. But just because they aren't the exact same doesn't mean they're unbalanced.

Sadly, I think you'll find others do think 'balanced' means 'all are the same'. Ranged damage is considered 'gimp' because it's not thousands of damage in ten seconds. And the fact it's typically safer is ignored. Any one hander that's not a kopesh is 'gimp' because it's not a 19-20 x3 crit. Path of harmony monks are 'gimp' because they don't get sneak attack damage and a 500 damage attack. Of course, I think that line of thinking is hogwash.

Still, it's out there. That line of thinking is what power gamers do. They look for the absolute peak performance under optimal conditions, and anything else is a waste of time.

[Razcar]

Overexagerate my point? You mean my point that a pure Rogue isn't nearly as "feat starved" as a pure Ranger?

FACT: Ranger gets 3 free melee feats. Tempest costs 4. Net loss = 1. It doesn't matter how you try to spin it, a Ranger is still short 1 feat than a Rogue.

Now sure, many Rangers will multiclass to get around this, but Rogues can multiclass as well. And doing so is a DPS loss in many cases for both classes (-2 FE damage and -1 FE for the Ranger, -4d6 SA for the Rogue).
You are making theoretical examples instead of practical ones. There is much less incentive for a melee ranger to stay pure than it is for a rogue in the current game. Melee rangers - in practice - have 2 free levels, since level 19 and 20 of the class are not very useful. So you can go monk or fighter and gain two feats. A rogue doing this - in practice - looses too much.

So let go of the rink and see the difference in real game terms instead of in theory. Then you might find that the main reasons for a ranger to not multiclass two levels are style/roleplaying ones, and then we we might as well talk about the rogue "being forced" to pick Skill Focus: Swim because "his daddy was a fisherman" or something in that vein.

[AylinIsAwesome]

You are making theoretical examples instead of practical ones. There is much less incentive for a melee ranger to stay pure than it is for a rogue in the current game. Melee rangers - in practice - have 2 free levels, since level 19 and 20 of the class are not very useful. So you can go monk or fighter and gain two feats. A rogue doing this - in practice - looses too much.

No, I understand that there isn't as much incentive for Rangers to take their last two levels in Ranger.

However, what should I just arbitrarily decide to replace it with? 2 Fighter? 2 Rogue? 2 Monk? Some combination of those? Barbarian perhaps?

There are too many options available to just pick one.


My point wasn't so much to say that "all Rangers are pure", or anything like that. Instead, it was against the claims that "it's ok for the Ranger PrE to cost 4 feats since they get so many free ones" (which is false because their PrE costs more feats than they get) and "Pure Rogues are feat-starved" (which isn't really the case either as all the important feats can be fit in).

[Rodasch]

there is 10x the variety in how tempest's spell drizzt than there is in overall builds.


ROFL, +1 for this line, you made my night.

[Razcar]

My point wasn't so much to say that "all Rangers are pure", or anything like that. Instead, it was against the claims that "it's ok for the Ranger PrE to cost 4 feats since they get so many free ones" (which is false because their PrE costs more feats than they get) and "Pure Rogues are feat-starved" (which isn't really the case either as all the important feats can be fit in).Well, IMO after the mad nerfs to Tempest it should cost exactly 0 feats. The DDO devs like to nerf without any compensation though, since it earns Turbine money.