18/2 how is this in epics

[Xoan]

I have played a rogue a lot, and I am about to TR for my 2nd time. I was looking hard at a 18/2 wizard/rogue combo. I have all the gear from a rogue perspective that I will need, and I gained a few wizard items over this toon's lives like a +4 Int tome.


The quest I am daring to ask is do I not go pure, when I have a +4 tome, or do I go pure and reach for the maximum possible Int... and loose all this rogue gear I have gained?

[stille_nacht]

id advise going pure, the capstone, along with the two extra levels, amount to +3 dcs (not to mention that the capstones makes all metamagics cost 1sp less, heighten one less/level), which from my view is more valuable in epics than evasion. however it all boils down to preference, evasion or higher dcss

also, rogue gear isnt gonna do a lv18/2 wizard much good unless it boosts int, that tome will do wonders though

[Zilta]

personally I would suggest going pure wiz, but thats just me because if I ever got something like a +4 int tome I would definitely give it to my pure wiz. thats not to say that an 18/2 wont work, just that I would rather use a +4 int tome on someone pure

[Srozbun]

id advise going pure, the capstone, along with the two extra levels, amount to +3 dcs (not to mention that the capstones makes all metamagics cost 1sp less, heighten one less/level), which from my view is more valuable in epics than evasion. however it all boils down to preference, evasion or higher dcss

also, rogue gear isnt gonna do a lv18/2 wizard much good unless it boosts int, that tome will do wonders though

Caster levels do not determine DC. A 18/2 will have 1 less DC than a pure wizard because of the loss of the capstone. He will however have 2 less spell pen.

[karnokvolrath]

I have played a rogue a lot, and I am about to TR for my 2nd time. I was looking hard at a 18/2 wizard/rogue combo. I have all the gear from a rogue perspective that I will need, and I gained a few wizard items over this toon's lives like a +4 Int tome.


The quest I am daring to ask is do I not go pure, when I have a +4 tome, or do I go pure and reach for the maximum possible Int... and loose all this rogue gear I have gained?

I love the 18/2 combo for epic, sure your not 100% awsomesause hold master flash, but you also take the rogue spot in the party. So that opens a spot for another CCer.

[Srozbun]

I love the 18/2 combo for epic, sure your not 100% awsomesause hold master flash, but you also take the rogue spot in the party. So that opens a spot for another CCer.

Which epic requires a rogue?

[andbr22]

3DC? How?
Your last lv of spells yopu got at 17 (and DC of spells only scales with int after)...
You gona have max spell DC - 2 Int for Capstone this is 1 DC.

But You gona loose Spell Penetration it hurts against enemeis that have Spell Resistances (devils, deamons, drows, deugars, maybe other)
Also last 2 Lv give you 195 SP. And Capstone is Nice (all metamagic cheaper Highten (-1 per lv)).

[stille_nacht]

Caster levels do not determine DC. A 18/2 will have 1 less DC than a pure wizard because of the loss of the capstone. He will however have 2 less spell pen.

oh, i always sort of assumed that you get additional dc for each wiz level :/, my bad

i still stand by pure wiz though, capstone is yummy :], and you get the extra level 9 spell slots/spells

[karnokvolrath]

Which epic requires a rogue?

Well nothing ever requires a rogue, but it can make things alot faster.

Your logic is flawed.....What epics need a caster? What epics need a healer?

The answer is always none, but thats not the best situation to be in.

On a side note, Wizking, The one in Searing hieghts, PHarlain Chapter house.

Again its not NEEDED, in fact i dont really even recomend it because rogues are so/so in epics, but with a 18/2 and a second caster it can make things alot smoother. These are just my expierences with it.

[Jaid314]

Well nothing ever requires a rogue, but it can make things alot faster.

Your logic is flawed.....What epics need a caster? What epics need a healer?

The answer is always none, but thats not the best situation to be in.

On a side note, Wizking, The one in Searing hieghts, PHarlain Chapter house.

Again its not NEEDED, in fact i dont really even recomend it because rogues are so/so in epics, but with a 18/2 and a second caster it can make things alot smoother. These are just my expierences with it.

rogues are great in most epics. autocrit situations are also auto sneak attack situations. but it certainly isn't because of their trap skills (note: you can just go around the traps in wiz king, the phiarlan chapter house you don't even need to go anywhere near any of the traps, and i'm pretty sure every trap in "the one in searing heights" can be avoided and/or ran through with good timing.

rogues are great in epics because they are great dps. the traps are more of a nice side benefit than anything else, and even then in many quests you don't really need to bother disarming the traps at all and it barely even has an effect.

if you're gonna roll wiz 18/rog 2, do it for evasion (and take insightful reflexes). well, evasion and UMD. 2 rogue levels can bring plenty to the table, including quite probably being excellent at disarming traps. the thing is, most of the time you don't really need to disarm traps anyways, so it's not a big deal.

[shagath]

On a side note, Wizking, The one in Searing hieghts, PHarlain Chapter house.I'll add chains of flame on that list too. :)

On subject, at least leveling is a lot of easier if you can do traps. I wouldn't go anything but pure but it's just matter of preference.

[Xoan]

To answer which "need" a rogue; Party Crashers is pretty hard with those wind gusts, and the spike trap on the 3rd step. The Tide Turns is pretty hard without it, sure you can work your way across the traps, but you might lose some a long the way and ship buffs too. If someone hits the wrong leaver in BoB most wont make it through. hehe The Gnoll one in the desert has that one room which you'll have to have the monk maybe make it through with everyone else's stone mid way though the dungeon.

There are some "wants" like Epic Big Top, Snitch, and etc that make it nice to have them cleared.



What I gather though it seems there is little difference other than 1 point of DC, and 2 points of Pen... what if I took another past life with the bonus to Pen? Is there a water mark for Spell Pen that people like to aim for, and can I reach that still? Also if my Int is 1 to 2 points higher, it probably will keep it the same as a pure without a +4 Int Tome. So it looks like the main reason is maybe the spell pen, to me anyways... maybe a few SP. without a sorc past life the builder I was looking at said about 2500 SP with the 18/2 build... is that enough, I believe it to be enough, but I am wondering. I also already have Bauble, and several ToD caster belts, so that will help greatly.




The other question is which presitege class to go with that, or what would be benefits of them... a friend in game thinks I should go the necro route... but they do not do many epics or end game stuff I am not really sure. I am not looking to build a solo style caster if you know what I mean. To me being able to regenerate is nice, until creatures are hitting you for 1 to 200 points of damage. hehe


Thanks for all the input so far!

[Jaid314]

all traps in party crashers can be avoided, if you know how. i've solo'd up to the giant on my caster with no ability to disarm traps. now that i can potentially use ice storm (as of U8) to dps the giant down without spending every last bit of mana that i have, i imagine it will be even easier.

in the tide turns, i'll allow that a rogue is really desirable. but a ranger/rogue isn't giving up nearly as much as a wizard/rogue. and besides, you'll quite possibly wish you had improved evasion for those anyways; 2 levels of rogue may not be enough (also, with well-timed heals and sufficient HP it should be possible). chains of flame, i could see wanting a rogue. but i think those traps can be timed.

snitch, all traps can be timed or avoided iirc... might be wrong on one of them. but i'm pretty sure the flame trap can be timed.

[Xoan]

ok the way you make it work is like this, from first level you can start adding points to search because it is a basic skill, but they only count as half a rank. If you did that for levels you would have a max rank of 10, or 5 for out of class skills like search for a wizard. You want to take the Int stat as your stat increase every 4 levels, and at 7th you want to eat a +2 int Tome. That means before you spend skills at 8th level you will have +2 Int from a Tome, and +2 Int from level increases, giving you a total of +4 from your starting point. All these bonuses count toward your extra skills you have.

So a Drow starting with a 20 int, would have a 24 int base at 8th level. That would give him/her a Class +7 bonus, so a total of 9 per level as a wizard or +15 for a Rogue.

Even though it is not supposed to work this way in the pnp version of the game, it does in DDO, once I take my 8th level as Rogue, I can spend 1 point of skills to raise my search up, and since my max rank at 8th level is 11, I can spend 6 of those points to max my search at 8th level. That leaves me 9 more points to put into DD for that one level of rogue.

The water mark for any Epic or end game dungeon you might want to do, and I do not count the DC 65 trap from the hobgoblin lair in GH as a end game dungeon is a 58. So the question is how many ranks do I need to get there keeping in mind I will reach a 40 int with this build...

Item bonus +15, Int Bonus +15, GH +4, Drow race bonus +2, (Race) enhance bonus +2, (rogue) enhance bonus +1, GS skill bonuses +6, bless +1. This gives me a total bonus of +46, my water mark is a 58 so 58-46 = 12.

So for me to hit that water mark I would only need 12 ranks. That seems pretty easy considering I would take my 20th level as Rogue adding another 15 points to the rogue skills.




Ok looking at DD now...
For that a 62 keeps you safe, so that you will not fall below the critical 5 below the DC for the traps. This is slightly harder because I will not have many points of dex as I will Int, but I will be fine because of the nature of things.

The Epic Utility Vest which can have a 0% chance of miscast after update 8 will have a +20 to DD, I will have a +5 from dex, +1 from rogue enhance, +7 from tools, +4 from GH, +1 from Bless gives me a total of +38, my water mark is 62 so 62-38 = 24.

So the most I could hope for with my current build of only have a 12 dex and eating a +2 tome, and using just a +6 stat item is a 61, making it possible for the rare trap to explode on a 1, but for one enhancement point I can get +2 to all my skills for a short burst. To make sure I that I reached my 23 points in DD by taking my last level as a rogue.


If I get lucky between now and then I can maybe get another +4 tome, or at least a +3, and if I am supper lucky it might be in dex. I am currently on a torrent pace for completions, I have 9 different dungeons at 7 or more, I am hoping that one or two +3 tomes will drop between the 20th completions.


My other GS btw is the classic HP, Stone Skin, Heavy Fort Helm... heh

So imo it is very possible to reach all of my rogue goals, through either skills, or scrolls like knock or find trap (which is another +9 to search btw). hehe

[Xoan]

so I guess the next thing to look at is the water marks for a wizard. I have not played a caster in the end game stuff, but I have been listening to the roles they play, and what some of their DCs they have and what not. I believe there are three basic groups of water marks that are important for a wizard in the end game stuff.

Spell Points, Spell Pen, your DCs for (Enchant Sphere and Evocation Sphere spells). Maybe there is another school I am missing... I have not honestly looked deeply into this knowing that I had a lot to learn before it really matter. heh I also know that Arch Mages have level SP, but it goes farther than a Necro.

Are there other areas I need to focus on too other than HP and what not, and what are these numbers if anyone can point me in the right direction that would be awesome. I would also be very interested in what spells are very important in Epics, and in end game content. I know that single target banish and mass banish make certain dungeons totally different, and that the higher level dance spell and mass hold is standard in epics, but what else out there is truly needed.

Thanks again for any input you might have :)

[Therigar]

rogues are so/so in epics

If the standard epic strategy is to mass hold so that everything is in autocrit....

Wouldn't that mean that rogues, especially pure class rogues, are the preferred melee class due to the mass of sneak attack damage they get?

Just saying.... :D

[Therigar]

Ok looking at DD now...
For that a 62 keeps you safe, so that you will not fall below the critical 5 below the DC for the traps. This is slightly harder because I will not have many points of dex as I will Int, but I will be fine because of the nature of things.

All well and good except that DD, like Search, is an INT skill not a DEX skill. :D

[Therigar]

so I guess the next thing to look at is the water marks for a wizard.

This is your only concern.

INT is the key stat for both Search AND Disable Device (in spite of what others posted). Assuming you will have ~40 INT by L20 neither of these will be a matter of concern. Assuming you will take Insightful Reflexes as a feat you won't have any DEX requirement whatsoever. If you desire DEX can be a dump stat.

DC is based on casting stat so your DC won't suffer significantly. The probability is that it will be as good as that of most other wizards running epics because they will have lower INT. Your +4 tome is significant.

You will lose out on the capstone but that is only a 1 DC difference even for wizards that would otherwise have the same INT.

Spell penetration will be lower because it is based on the number of caster levels for that class. There is nothing you can do about that piece since anything you do with feats or gear the other wizards will also be doing.

In fact, you may be behind other wizards if they have TR'd because wizard TR adds +2 to spell penetration. Getting the benchmark for spell penetration is what you need to be looking for.

[KillEveryone]

I miss that spell pen with my 18/2. Typically it is in Epic Chronoscope. Haven't had too much trouble in Epic Vons. Did one in Sentinals...can't rember which...but I didn't have much trouble landing things in there either. Haven't ran other epics.

My DC was 39...I did a LR to be pure. Jonsen to try out the ride now in Chronoscope. I didn't have much trouble landing before but critters did save. I noticed that my spell pen was lacking more often than them saving.

Often though it seemed that some days I could pass spell pen and owned everything, others days I couldn't. Kind of like when I melee with my vorpals...some days I can roll that 20, others I can't roll one to save my life. Some days I can get through their spell pen, other days I can't get past it to save my life.

A past life as a wizard will make up for that missing spell pen on a 18/2 but you would have to do another TR.

If you archmage enchant you will be able to get your DC at 40 with gear, capstone and +2 tome and if you are fleshy. If you are human you can get +1 DC more than WF with epic gear and a Litany. Drow only needs either a epic INT item or a Litany. A warforged will be down 1 DC behind a human or drow even if you have epic gear and a Litany.

Warforged are really nice to play as a wizard though. It is a real tough call. If you can get your UMD high enough, you can use heal scrolls as a fleshy if you are concerned with maximum DC. If you can tolerate being down one then WF is a better choice. Just easier to build and keep healed.

Make sure you work in all spell pen feats and enhancements. See about getting a spell pen IX of some kind. I have a eardweller but it is a minor spell pen. The single target hold monster is a level 5 spell and you can get a greater spell pen item for that spell which will add +3 for the spell pen when casting that spell.

You're trap disable DC shouldn't have trouble getting all the traps. Just keep your skills up. It is going to be quite high with gear and buffs and that INT. I have never worried about a trap fail.

Don't worry about open lock too much. There are not many locks that need to be picked and knock will do the trick for most of your leveling needs.

Since you can typically bypass or time traps, you don't need a rogue but getting those traps is really handy.

Evasion is really, really, really nice. Your reflex save will be nice and high with gear, spells, and insightful reflexes.

If you want to eek every last skill point, get a +1 and +2 INT tome. Eat the +1 at lvl 3, and at lvl 7 eat that +2. At the level after you eat the tome, you gain another stat level up. At level 4 your base stat INT will be 19. That tome will bump it to 20 which will give you another skill point. Similar scenario at level 7 and 8.

Eeking out those skill points is only helpful if you are going to try and up your UMD. It is tricky to keep all the very helpful and the necessary skills up. Warforged don't have to worry about their UMD since they can just use a reconstruct scroll and reapir themselves with their SP. You'll get enough skill points to keep up the necessary skills if you go warforged.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Stay pure IMO.

[shagath]

Make sure you work in all spell pen feats and enhancements. See about getting a spell pen IX of some kind. I have a eardweller but it is a minor spell pen. The single target hold monster is a level 5 spell and you can get a greater spell pen item for that spell which will add +3 for the spell pen when casting that spell.If you are compare mass hold monster vs hold monster, mass hold monster doesn't have sr check.

[k1ngp1n]

If the standard epic strategy is to mass hold so that everything is in autocrit....

Wouldn't that mean that rogues, especially pure class rogues, are the preferred melee class due to the mass of sneak attack damage they get?

Just saying.... :D

No. Rogue damage (even STR based) in autocrit is quite a bit behind a barb going nuts.

[vVAnjilaVv]

If you are compare mass hold monster vs hold monster, mass hold monster doesn't have sr check.

Seriously...is that a bug or working WAI...because if it's WAI and not going to be "fixed" :D....I'm gonna hve to retake that on my Sorc!

Speaking of Mass Hold btw

[EatSmart]

Be very, very careful with how you spend your feats, you'll have one fewer than pure, and many more start to look attractive. This is a build to put through a character planner, work out your final spell DCs and spell penetration, then to do a reality check with friends.

I ran wizzy rogue for a while when i was f2p. She was very fun, and had some reasonable achievements under her belt like soloing elite enter the kobold without pots way before the nerf. She was awful as an epic crowd controller.

Wizzy rogue is viable in epic as a CC caster, if you build with the mindset that you're a DC caster first, and rogue second.

[Trillea]

Which epic requires a rogue?

Gianthold...






Eventually..


Update 9 pls? :D

[KillEveryone]

If you are compare mass hold monster vs hold monster, mass hold monster doesn't have sr check.

I've casted it and saw the spell resistance shield.

I also haven't seen the blue hex above critters heads when it doesn't land.

Either spell resistance is being applied when it shouldn't or there is a problem when I'm casting. I know I'm casting mass hold monster and I don't see the blue hex but I'll also see the spell resistance shield sometimes.

Could be the description is wrong. That wouldn't be the first time.

[Trillea]

Post number 21 and 23 please remove yourselves before the Devs find out and fix it.. ;)

[Gratch]

I like wiz18/rogue2 warforged archmage. The int synergy with traps and insightful reflexes makes evasion worthwhile. I think there's a really really long thread about this somewhere. My wizard doesn't die much and has run everything epic. 500HP's + useful evasion + self-reconstruct + 10sp FtoS'es at crazy dc's = EASY BUTTON WIN. About to TR him again for 2 more spell pen and 36-pt build. Still deciding whether I should keep the tier5 transmutation tree... does make chrono/von/fens scroll farming simplistic.

18/2 Losses:
-2 spell pen - can be made up by 1 wizard past life or epic staff of archmagi and spell pen is less important now that most debuffs don't affect (or won't affect once the devs find them) boss monsters (who have the highest SR's). Though in theory U9 will have a spell "pass" done on it that may make debuffs (and landing them) worthwhile again.
-Few hundred SP's. Get a bauble, abbot glove(s), spell storing ring, twisted talisman to make these up. Use archmage bonus SP PRE's for more Sp's. you'll still be less than a pure wizard doing the same thing, but it's only ~10% of a fully geared wizard's mana pool.
-capstone +2 Int and sp savings. Probably the toughest loss especially the heighten sp savings. There are a number of other spell saving devices. Static ones like glacier bracers and dynamic ones like litany and noxious embers.

18/2 Gains:
-high reflex save (there's no question whether you should take insightful reflexes) contributes to successful evasion (monestary elite and epic chains/von5 may still get you).
-trap skills capable of hitting epics
-40's umd for heal/rez/divine type scrolls
-1d6+3 SA damage on mobs... shrug

[Faent]

in the tide turns, i'll allow that a rogue is really desirable.

Nope. There's only one trap in Epic Tide that is slightly tricky. If your party doesn't know how to get past it, let them go first. If they die, rez them. Then go yourself and do something like Death Pact up if you can't manage it yourself.

[shagath]

I've casted it and saw the spell resistance shield.

I also haven't seen the blue hex above critters heads when it doesn't land.

Either spell resistance is being applied when it shouldn't or there is a problem when I'm casting. I know I'm casting mass hold monster and I don't see the blue hex but I'll also see the spell resistance shield sometimes.

Could be the description is wrong. That wouldn't be the first time.I've been casting mass holds a lot. Spell description says there's no resistance and I see no spell penetration check with it. If I try hold monster, I see it. I haven't noticed blue shield at least often and when I do, I just assume it was my death aura trying to hit them. :)

[Jaid314]

Nope. There's only one trap in Epic Tide that is slightly tricky. If your party doesn't know how to get past it, let them go first. If they die, rez them. Then go yourself and do something like Death Pact up if you can't manage it yourself.

given the option of either re-applying buffs to everyone and possibly waiting for touch of dolurrh to wear off, or bringing a rogue... i'd "desire" to bring a rogue, hence making it "desirable" ;)

necessary? essential? required? no, not really. but desirable? i'd have to say yes.

[shagath]

given the option of either re-applying buffs to everyone and possibly waiting for touch of dolurrh to wear off, or bringing a rogue... i'd "desire" to bring a rogue, hence making it "desirable" ;)

necessary? essential? required? no, not really. but desirable? i'd have to say yes.This can be handled by one with evasion with no problems. Not all of the party need to go through traps. ;)

[Jaid314]

This can be handled by one with evasion with no problems. Not all of the party need to go through traps. ;)

and yet, nevertheless, it remains desirable to bring a rogue in order to avoid anyone going through the trap (even if that "rogue" is really just a rogue splash that can handle traps)

[vorpel]

Op,

I know you wrote that you have all the rogue gear on this toon, but something to consider if you don't go pure Wizard is a 18 Wiz/2 Monk WF Archmage build.

You would lose the trap skills, but I don't think that is too much of a hit. The big gain is that you will have 2 extra feats. Combine this with taking 1 extra TR as a Wizard and you can make up the -2 spell pen from not going pure.

On this type of build, here's how I'd do the feats:

Toughness
Insightful Reflexes
Spell Focus: Enchantment
Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
Extend
Maximize
Empower
Heighten
Quicken
Mental Toughness
Spell Pen
Greater Spell Pen
1 extra feat - could be Imp Mental Toughness, Power Attack, etc.


This is just something to consider.

[ddoer]

I hv a wiz18/mnk2 as well. For the 2nd monk feat, i would suggest to take one more toughness. +22hp is better than the other options.

In compare to a pure, Evasion is the main benefit for this build. 2 monk level give 2 toughness feats that is not as useful as a metamagic feat. Evasion isnt really so critical esp for wiz with high reflex save. If i have only 1 caster, i would definitely stay pure.

Monk splash hv 7+4 wiz+2 monk feats. For the 4 metamagic feats, i take max, emp, quicken and ext. For the normal feats, i take sp pen, greater spell pen, IMT, SF:enhantment, GSF:Enchantment, wiz past life and insightful reflex. Heighten is very useful but missing from my list. In general, i would suggest an AM enchanter to take heighten rather than emp.

pure > monk splash > rog splash in term of feats

[AdriaHedgehog]

I suggest to go pure. What you need the most in epics is Spell Pen.
DCs are not a big deal, anyway you can hit 40ish for enchantment with right gears and feats
(and archmage enhancements), which is enough imo.
And, Wizard capstone really rocks.
However, speaking about Spell Pen, you can TR as (a former) Wizard to get a wizard pastlife to compensate it.
This coud be another choice.

[sephiroth1084]

If the standard epic strategy is to mass hold so that everything is in autocrit....

Wouldn't that mean that rogues, especially pure class rogues, are the preferred melee class due to the mass of sneak attack damage they get?

Just saying.... :D
No. Simply because rogues tend to benefit the least from mobs going auto-crit, as the majority of their damage (SA) isn't multiplied on crits. If you're a Str-based rogue then this shifts back a little bit, but not nearly as much as it does for everyone else. Plus, as a rogue, you'd need to take a feat, splash a martial class, or eat a non-proficiency penalty to get a weapon with better than a x2 multiplier, further compounding this issue.

That said, a DPS rogue is likely doing more damage than anyone else in the party vs. anything not held, and isn't that far behind anything but a barbarian vs. held stuff, so it's not a huge deal.


On the pure vs. 18/2, I say try out the latter, but hold off on the +4 Int tome until after you've run some epics and made up your mind as to whether you miss the extra spell pen, DC, feat, slots and SP discount, and whether the rogue skills and Evasion are valuable to you.

Also, I'd recommend taking the second rogue level earlier on than level 20. When the cap was 16 I read a bunch of builds that did this, holding off on Rogue 2 until their last level, and I always wondered why they'd want to run basically the entire game without Evasion. I find it incredibly useful while leveling, especially if you're going to be dealing with traps. On my Wiz/Rog 2 split, I grabbed the second level just after obtaining firewall. Others do so after gaining access to Haste and Fireball.

[Jaid314]

who cares if you're suffering from a non-proficiency penalty when you're killing a held target? you could have a net to-hit of -50 and you'd still hit on a 2+ anyways. grab a couple of bursting picks of maiming (or greensteel) and go to town just like everyone else.

not to mention a lot of rogues use khopesh anyways (which is x3), and rogues that use quarterstaff (mostly acrobats) will tend to use life-draining ones, which has it's own special bonus. those who don't, well, rahl's might is easy to get, and has a x3 multiplier.

even repeater rogues can potentially deal decent damage, because they can use improved precise shot to hit 2 or more targets at a time. they won't have the sheer strength of the other classes, but adding large amounts of sneak attack dice can be pretty big too.

[Chai]

Which epic requires a rogue?

Not one that people run alot, that for sure, because it isnt required to run it to get the epic item ingredients you want.

[morticianjohn]

Being a trapper makes the process of leveling to 20 better. I just don't know if that benefit outweighs the loss of a capstone. It comes down to preference and since I never seem to be able to find rogues my preference is to take that rogue splash so I'm not waiting around to run certain quests looking for a rogue.

[Hihiirokane]

Note that it is subpar taking a WF Archmage with 2 rog levels. As you will gain UMD, it becomes easier to run a Drow who can then self heal rather easily and early through the level up process.

The choice for 2 rog is most useful because of
1. Evasion
2. UMD

Being the trapmonkey is really, really far off in the distance somewhere, in terms of usefulness. It's a nice bonus but should never, ever be your motivation.

[Jaid314]

Note that it is subpar taking a WF Archmage with 2 rog levels. As you will gain UMD, it becomes easier to run a Drow who can then self heal rather easily and early through the level up process.

The choice for 2 rog is most useful because of
1. Evasion
2. UMD

Being the trapmonkey is really, really far off in the distance somewhere, in terms of usefulness. It's a nice bonus but should never, ever be your motivation.

it may be a distant third, but let's face it... as a max int wizard, you have way more skill points than you need anyways. the simple fact is that even though trap skills aren't all that useful, they *are* less useless than most of the other skills you could pick.