Over Raided

[Keybreaker]

EDITED

This thread was hijacked by rogues... :)

In any case, MyDDO guild rosters have not been updated in many months (more than 6 months?), and do not accurately reflect our guild roster/officers. Since MyDDO character info is now being updated in fits and starts, perhaps we can look forward to other aspects of MyDDO and the guild leaderboard working at some point in the future.

[hyenaboy]

well, congrats on being promoted to officer Key. Now as far as a congrats on seeming to be given the task of recruitment, well that I don't know if I can say congrats or not.

[Qezuzu]

Your guild only has two lvl20 pure Rogues, one is archived and the other doesn't appear to be very epic.

Wwwhhhyyyy

[Vengeance777]

We have several multiclasses that get the traps in Epic Chains of Flames. Other than that quest most epic traps are avoidable or survivable if you have over 500hp.

We currently have a few people building level 20 rogues for fun. At least one assassin build and an acrobat.

[unscythe]

Your guild only has two lvl20 pure Rogues, one is archived and the other doesn't appear to be very epic.

Wwwhhhyyyy

Because rogues are very bad versus high fort mobs(raid bosses), even with the new feat. The Goggles of Insight are very epic for a toon I made for fun.

Wonder how many pure rogues on Orien have 440 hp at 20 with just gear.

[Consumer]

Because rogues are very bad versus high fort mobs(raid bosses), even with the new feat. The Goggles of Insight are very epic for a toon I made for fun.

I have some numbers in front of me that say you're wrong.

Of course not everyone will run properly built toons but that's not my problem.

[unscythe]

I have some numbers in front of me that say you're wrong.

Of course not everyone will run properly built toons but that's not my problem.

Please enlighten me with your numbers or you are wrong.

I was not clear on how high the fortification of the mob was, since the meaning of high is affected by a persons personal definition. So in the end your saying my opinion is wrong, yet you did not prove why.

Heres a list of what you need and use to compare.

-Fortification of all the bosses at all difficulties
-a time frame for how long said rogue is attacking
-number of atatcks in the time fram (counting boosts, haste when possible- looks at ToD)
-avg sneak damage-fully geared,not fully geared, and semi geared
-different builds of pure rogue-to find a strong pure rogue dpscontender
-other builds/classes and their respective dps, boosts, time frames
-proper calculation of the effect boosts have on dps, counting their cooldown timers as well
-calculations of different weapons- to find the best average damage

So you say you have a "few numbers" that say I am wrong, I am gonna say you have too few numbers to prove anything.

[silvertrit]

Please enlighten me with your numbers or you are wrong.

I was not clear on how high the fortification of the mob was, since the meaning of high is affected by a persons personal definition. So in the end your saying my opinion is wrong, yet you did not prove why.

Heres a list of what you need and use to compare.

-Fortification of all the bosses at all difficulties
-a time frame for how long said rogue is attacking
-number of atatcks in the time fram (counting boosts, haste when possible- looks at ToD)
-avg sneak damage-fully geared,not fully geared, and semi geared
-different builds of pure rogue-to find a strong pure rogue dpscontender
-other builds/classes and their respective dps, boosts, time frames
-proper calculation of the effect boosts have on dps, counting their cooldown timers as well
-calculations of different weapons- to find the best average damage

So you say you have a "few numbers" that say I am wrong, I am gonna say you have too few numbers to prove anything.


You aint Legion so chill out buddy, my numbers say I need to call my g/f and remember I have funner things to do then crunch numbers :P

[Consumer]

-Fortification of all the bosses at all difficulties
-a time frame for how long said rogue is attacking
-number of atatcks in the time fram (counting boosts, haste when possible- looks at ToD)
-avg sneak damage-fully geared,not fully geared, and semi geared

You realise I can do all this in about 30 seconds lol, the community is nice enough to provide DPS calcs to use. The magic that is open office, excel e.c.t. makes changing values and gear very easy and fast.


-different builds of pure rogue-to find a strong pure rogue dpscontender

I have 2/3 max DPS Rogue builds posted on the forums atm lol.


-other builds/classes and their respective dps, boosts, time frames


-proper calculation of the effect boosts have on dps, counting their cooldown timers as well
-calculations of different weapons- to find the best average damage

Rogue activates 2 haste boosts per minute. With quick draw this is 0.6 seconds per boost or 1.2 seconds spent activating per minute, this leaves 19.4 seconds per boost swinging and 10 unboosted. This results in just over a 17% DPS increase while haste boosts can be used back to back. A HO Rogue can can take 10 boosts total, 5 base, 2 Rogue and 3 HO, this gives 5 minutes of constant boosting.


So you say you have a "few numbers" that say I am wrong, I am gonna say you have too few numbers to prove anything.



The max sustainable numbers and average over 0/50/100 fort from A-O's/Ax's newest calc are:

Rogue - 726 for 5 minutes and 460
Archon - 661 for 5.5 minutes and 463
THF Fighter - 657 for 6.5 minutes and 451
18/1/1 Barb - 642 for 4 minutes and 446
Fighter TWF - 617 for 6.5 minutes 413
Blitz - 613 for 5.5 minutes and 427
Pally - 604 for 5 mins and 496.3

Trying to overwhelm me with multiple calculations will have no effect. Hows that for a start. As you can see HO Rogues have the highest DPS against 0% fort and the second highest average DPS against 0/50/100% fort.

Note the Rogue is a build I posted, the 18/1/1 is a build I posted, the fighter is a build I have posted and the Blitz was adapted to HO by me before Nick changed his.

The Rogue does 453 DPS against pit fiends on normal (50% fort or 40 with opportunist), 276 DPS against portals (100% fort or 90 with opportunist).

Anything else you want lol.

[Qezuzu]

Okay, this stops, now.

There is a Rogue forum, go there. Rogues have insanely high DPS, on raid bosses it's still pretty darn high and absolutely not "very bad". I've done a VoD run with 6 (?) pure rogues, took 15 mins and only one of the two healers died.

And on 440 HP, yes I agree there are not many good rogues on Orien (or most any other server). There are countless well geared and well played Barbs/Fighters/Monks. But you could probably count the number of rogues worth partying with on a given server without much difficulty.

It's a far more advanced class than fighter/Barbarian, and it's extremely harsh and noticeable if you've gimped it.

And Epic Rogues are not defined by making love to traps. Anyone can do that without much trouble.

[unscythe]

You realise I can do all this in about 30 seconds lol, the community is nice enough to provide DPS calcs to use. The magic that is open office, excel e.c.t. makes changing values and gear very easy and fast.
So your assuming that the community is always 100% correct.

Trying to overwhelm me with multiple calculations will have no effect. Hows that for a start. As you can see HO Rogues have the highest DPS against 0% fort and the second highest average DPS against 0/50/100% fort.
I never said anything about 0% fort.

The Rogue does 453 DPS against pit fiends on normal (50% fort or 40 with opportunist), 276 DPS against portals (100% fort or 90 with opportunist).
Don't pit fiends have random aggro? So wouldn't that number drop significantly whenever it turns your way? Plus your saying the dps remains the same even when fortification is reduced "453 DPS against pit fiends on normal (50% fort or 40 with opportunist) ".

Again your arguing against an opinion that can have different meanings. Such as "very bad" can mean inconsistent because their damage relies heavily on sneak attacks, so their damage is inconsistent. Assuming your numbers are close to the perfect potential dps, your numbers back up how inconsistent a rogue is.

Thanks for trolling my opinion when you are not 100% correct.
There is a difference between practice and potential.

Only positive thing here is that you can research a little. But do not speak as though what you know is absolute truth or absolutely right, there can be many things "not as intended" or things gone "unnoticed" in these calculations.


You aint Legion so chill out buddy, my numbers say I need to call my g/f and remember I have funner things to do then crunch numbers :P

Never said I wanted to be anything like Legion. If you have better things to do, then don't post.

Sorry for the thread derail Key. Unless more attention good attention.
My last post(food) for the trolls here.

[clkpacker]

Okay, this stops, now.You started it ;D

OP, I've done a couple of raids with OR and they've all been really fun--good luck recruiting.

[Consumer]

There is a difference between practice and potential.


Don't pit fiends have random aggro?

Maybe you should practice some raids and quests other than shroud part 5 lol.

No I wasn't saying DPS is the same when fort is reduced. Pit fiends have 50% fort which is lowered to 40% with opportunist.


Only positive thing here is that you can research a little. But do not speak as though what you know is absolute truth or absolutely right, there can be many things "not as intended" or things gone "unnoticed" in these calculations.

Name the situation, being Vague just shows how weak your posts are. Calling us trolls just makes you look even worse when I back up everything I say with facts and you provide nothing.

[Vanshilar]

Name the situation, being Vague just shows how weak your posts are. Calling us trolls just makes you look even worse when I back up everything I say with facts and you provide nothing.

I think unscythe's point is that using spreadsheets is only as useful as the assumptions that were built into them (i.e. how accurately they model what occurs in the actual situation). Although rogues are fairly gimpy in Abbot, fortunately Abbot isn't really about DPS. Other places they're generally fine.

How many rogues (or barbarians or paladins etc.) there are in a guild is more a reflection of what's interesting to the members at the moment than anything else. Not to mention that in a small guild, you don't exactly have a big statistical sample so there's some randomness in what people will want to play. Rogues may be nice DPS when the situation works out right on paper but they're support and more specialized, compared with say barbarians which have pretty good DPS in almost all situations. I think the guild had a lot of barbarians early on because they're so easy to equip and get started on farming with in the early days of the server, but as it matures there'll probably be more rogue-based builds (and other investment-intensive builds) which are somewhat harder to equip but have somewhat more potential.

[Consumer]

I think unscythe's point is that using spreadsheets is only as useful as the assumptions that were built into them (i.e. how accurately they model what occurs in the actual situation). Although rogues are fairly gimpy in Abbot, fortunately Abbot isn't really about DPS. Other places they're generally fine.

How many rogues (or barbarians or paladins etc.) there are in a guild is more a reflection of what's interesting to the members at the moment than anything else. Not to mention that in a small guild, you don't exactly have a big statistical sample so there's some randomness in what people will want to play. Rogues may be nice DPS when the situation works out right on paper but they're support and more specialized, compared with say barbarians which have pretty good DPS in almost all situations. I think the guild had a lot of barbarians early on because they're so easy to equip and get started on farming with in the early days of the server, but as it matures there'll probably be more rogue-based builds (and other investment-intensive builds) which are somewhat harder to equip but have somewhat more potential.

I was with a number of your guild back when Epic Fail was still the best guild on my Barb lol, your point is Valid but Unscythe specifically asked questions he thought would be hard for me to answer. They were not and I have done these things multiple times before.

If someone wants the inclusion of a specific situation such as a certain mob or situation it does not take long to include it. Trudh asked about the inclusion of stunning blow a couple weeks ago and I provided him with a solution pretty quickly.

People love to target small gaps and to refuse the large amount of evidence that occupies the rest of a space.





Anyway even after you once declined me from VoD because I had a RA tag, I'm happy to say you were and are clearly the best group of players on the server.

[Grundus]

It's a far more advanced class than fighter/Barbarian, and it's extremely harsh and noticeable if you've gimped it.

No. There's nothing particularly advanced or difficult about rogues. You want to see a melee class that requires both advanced building and playing skills to excel and not be gimped, look at paladins.

The problem with rogue isn't that it's inordinately difficult, it's that it's a niche class when it comes to raiding.


Your guild only has two lvl20 pure Rogues, one is archived and the other doesn't appear to be very epic.

Wwwhhhyyyy

Over Raided is a very small guild (fewer than two dozen players, with maybe 2-3 capped raiding characters apiece) with a extremely busy and high-end raiding schedule that is heavily constrained by attendance and raid timers. There is a lot of pressure to complete all the endgame elite/epic raids (3-4 total raids daily) on their schedule with whichever 8-12 people they happen to have online and off-timer. This means there is a large natural selection bias in favor of multi-role characters: this is why you'll find a number of builds like intimitank fvs, kensai intimitank, arcane archer fvs, etc in the guild. That means there's also a premium on DPS characters that can simply equip some incite gear and become main tank: because you'll never know what other melees might show up or be off-timer, and you might be the group's best shot. Which means bringing a rogue instead of a barb could mean the raid doesn't get done.

In raids, rogues are selfish in that they always rely on someone else when it comes to their DPS, and there are a lot of limitations to how you can use their mix of improved evasion and non-aggro DPS. For instance, though they have improved evasion they're far worse candidates for soloing fire base on EVoN6 than monks. Likewise improved evasion is useful for blades in EDQ but the anti-knockdown strength of barbs and fighters results in higher DPS overall. In a melee pack situation like EVoN6 and EDQ, rogues lose a lot of their sneak attacks if the aggro is spread out among only 3-4 melees, rather than 10. And in the case of a poor melee turnout night you also can't assign a rogue to tank elite ToD or EChrono. And rogues can't even fly in tiles or waterwalk through ice like monks can in Abbot. And so on. When these raiding issues are on the table on a daily basis and each player in the guild probably only has 1-2 melee characters to work with (since it takes time to gear each character out), rogues start to look a lot less practical.

And you specifically mention pure rogues, but that only exacerbates their niche situation as merely fillers for a generic kill pack in raids. For example, a pure rogue can't help manyshot Lailat at the start of EDQ but a tempest rogue can. You may play a pure rogue but you have to realize that at the current endgame, being pure rogue makes you even less raid-versatile in an already niche class.

This is not to say that rogues aren't useful in raids -- they most definitely can be great raid DPS. But while rogues excel under ideal conditions, they often fare very poorly in less-than-ideal groups, and Over Raided raids daily in a somewhat insane way: rain-or-shine, ideal-or-not-ideal, let's-check-whoever's-online-and-just-go. Rogues are better suited to larger guilds (say, 60 accounts with 6-10 raiding characters apiece) with a less ambitious per-capita raiding schedule and guaranteed balanced groups on every run, rather than a "hmph, well we'll figure out a way to run it on elite/epic regardless" guild like Over Raided. If you have only 8 people to bring to an endgame raid and your only 3 melees are all rogues, you're screwed; if your only 3 melees are all barbarians, you'd still have a shot at the completion.

There's also the gear issue. Damage calculators assume optimal gear, but less-equipped rogues fare very poorly against fort than well-equipped rogues do, since their sneak attacks represent a much higher percentage of their overall DPS without gear. Classes like barbarians and fighters have innate damage bonuses (like barbarian rage/frenzy and kensai specialization/surge) that are fort-agnostic, which makes them more reliable as practical raid DPS when you consider the mix of equipment levels that you'll invariably have when your guild's raiding strategy includes "let's grab whomever is off-timer, even if they're not mains." And less-equipped rogues are at an extreme survivability disadvantage compared to comparable fighters and barbarians as well, because a much higher percentage of their hp comes from gear.

And there's no need to single out Over Raided out on the rogue issue. There aren't any epic rogues on the Orien server right now, period. There are a (fairly limited) number of melees on Orien with red armor or marilith, red helm, litany, epic claw set, Kyosho's and Ravager's, etc -- but none of them are rogues, and if anyone would like to link a MyDDO to show otherwise I'm sure we'd all be interested to see. It doesn't help for rogues that at the present moment, nobody on the server has been running Epics for as long, as frequently, or as efficiently as Over Raided has been, and their guild setup tends to not favor rogues. But it's hard to fault Over Raided for what is essentially a serverwide issue when it comes to rogues on Orien. Nevertheless Over Raided is not the only game in town these days for endgame (though they used to be for a long time), and as the server continues to mature, as more players/guilds begins to run Epics, and as Turbine continues to nerf the challenge out of the content (nerfed Epic DC/AC/traps, WoE on Horoth, etc) to accelerate gear inflation, that rogues on Orien will start to get geared out as well and you'll start seeing more of them in elite guilds on this server.

They're just not there, yet.

And to rerail the thread back on the original topic: even though it's a difficult guild for rogues, Over Raided's trial period is still, bar none, the fastest and most thorough way to learn and immediately get involved in endgame raiding on this server.

[Qezuzu]

Okay really, stop.

I wasn't looking for any answer.

And having made a thread for this on the Rogue forums because I just know many people are itching to discuss it, nearly everything you said is short-sighted. Rogues are far more versatile than you are making them out to be.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3466861#post3466861

[Consumer]

And there's no need to single out Over Raided out on the rogue issue. There aren't any epic rogues on the Orien server right now, period. There are a (fairly limited) number of melees on Orien with red armor or marilith, red helm, litany, epic claw set, Kyosho's and Ravager's, etc -- but none of them are rogues, and if anyone would like to link a MyDDO to show otherwise I'm sure we'd all be interested to see. It doesn't help for rogues that at the present moment, nobody on the server has been running Epics for as long, as frequently, or as efficiently as Over Raided has been, and their guild setup tends to not favor rogues. But it's hard to fault Over Raided for what is essentially a serverwide issue when it comes to rogues on Orien. Nevertheless Over Raided is not the only game in town these days for endgame (though they used to be for a long time), and as the server continues to mature, as more players/guilds begins to run Epics, and as Turbine continues to nerf the challenge out of the content (nerfed Epic DC/AC/traps, WoE on Horoth, etc) to accelerate gear inflation, that rogues on Orien will start to get geared out as well and you'll start seeing more of them in elite guilds on this server.

Data was equipped with ToD sets and so on but his characters been archived.

Can someone explain why I was neg repped for correcting misinformation and answering all questions posed to me?

[Carpone]

Data is no longer archived. He logged in yesterday.

[Qezuzu]

Data is no longer archived. He logged in yesterday.

I never cared.

But, sorry if I offended anyone with the Rogue thread. That was an **exceptionally** bad day for me. The remark was never serious, I never expected a response, but I got one and I didn't like how I had accidentally derailed a thread. My distracted mind blew a logic subroutine and I wrote dumb things.

And by exceptionally bad day, I mean a "Thousands of people have died and you could have stopped it" day.

And by distracted mind I mean "temporary insanity due to crushing despair".

Which is a shame because that got me my first ever neg rep.

[wax_on_wax_off]

You realise I can do all this in about 30 seconds lol, the community is nice enough to provide DPS calcs to use. The magic that is open office, excel e.c.t. makes changing values and gear very easy and fast.



I have 2/3 max DPS Rogue builds posted on the forums atm lol.



Rogue activates 2 haste boosts per minute. With quick draw this is 0.6 seconds per boost or 1.2 seconds spent activating per minute, this leaves 19.4 seconds per boost swinging and 10 unboosted. This results in just over a 17% DPS increase while haste boosts can be used back to back. A HO Rogue can can take 10 boosts total, 5 base, 2 Rogue and 3 HO, this gives 5 minutes of constant boosting.






Trying to overwhelm me with multiple calculations will have no effect. Hows that for a start. As you can see HO Rogues have the highest DPS against 0% fort and the second highest average DPS against 0/50/100% fort.

Note the Rogue is a build I posted, the 18/1/1 is a build I posted, the fighter is a build I have posted and the Blitz was adapted to HO by me before Nick changed his.

The Rogue does 453 DPS against pit fiends on normal (50% fort or 40 with opportunist), 276 DPS against portals (100% fort or 90 with opportunist).

Anything else you want lol.

+1 Very nicely put.

I think that practice vs potential is a useless, inflammatory argument. No build in a regular raid is going to meet its potential DPS over the course of the raid but we all try to optimise our time to maximise our DPS. DPS is about playstyle, player skill and build.

Sure, rogues lose DPS when they gain aggro from a mob that they are attacking but any rogue worth their weight knows to spread their DPS around to avoid taking aggro and maximise their DPS.

[Keybreaker]

Rogue activates 2 haste boosts per minute. With quick draw this is 0.6 seconds per boost or 1.2 seconds spent activating per minute, this leaves 19.4 seconds per boost swinging and 10 unboosted. This results in just over a 17% DPS increase while haste boosts can be used back to back. A HO Rogue can can take 10 boosts total, 5 base, 2 Rogue and 3 HO, this gives 5 minutes of constant boosting.


Sure, rogues lose DPS when they gain aggro from a mob that they are attacking but any rogue worth their weight knows to spread their DPS around to avoid taking aggro and maximise their DPS.

It's much easier for a fighter or barbarian to hit and maintain maximum potential DPS than it is for a rogue. Just hit all clickies and balls to the walls melee frenzy...

However, rogue max DPS is far more difficult to maintain because of aggro. The only time you can maintain optimum DPS is when someone else is hate/intimi-tanking or the mob is stunned/held. Consumer assumes max/optimum clickie rotation... Wax, on the other hand, suggests "spread[ing] their DPS around" but that kind of aggro-micromanaging is not possible with either mobs or bosses.

In most mob situations and random aggro bosses (either by design or because no tank), rogue DPS is unreliable compared to more direct melee. No matter how weighty or salty a rogue is, either (1) he's doing such uber-DPS he's pulling aggro hence losing SA, the majority of his DPS, or (2) he's not pulling aggro because, for whatever reason (self-restraint?) he's not doing as much hate-generating DPS as someone else.

In any case, bottom line is that rogue DPS, being highly dependent on SA, flanking, and enemy fort, is simply not consistent, and max DPS will not be achieved and cannot be maintained under many circumstances. I'm not a rogue-hater (no matter what Data may say), but these are the combat mechanics as they are currently implemented.

[WestportStan]

Key's disdain for both rogues and halflings is well documented :P

[Qezuzu]

Take it to the rogue forums already.



In most mob situations and random aggro bosses (either by design or because no tank), rogue DPS is unreliable compared to more direct melee. No matter how weighty or salty a rogue is, either (1) he's doing such uber-DPS he's pulling aggro hence losing SA, the majority of his DPS, or (2) he's not pulling aggro because, for whatever reason (self-restraint?) he's not doing as much hate-generating DPS as someone else.

In any case, bottom line is that rogue DPS, being highly dependent on SA, flanking, and enemy fort, is simply not consistent, and max DPS will not be achieved and cannot be maintained under many circumstances. I'm not a rogue-hater (no matter what Data may say), but these are the combat mechanics as they are currently implemented.

Hence threat reduction. (Flanking does not play a role in SA's by the way).

As long as there's another competent melee in the group, I rarely ever lose SA's. -40% subtle backstabbing line, -20% epic Venom set, and I hardly ever pull aggro off of something that some FB barbarian has beat on for a few seconds. If it's trash, I can blind it anyway, and if it's a redname/raid boss, someone is probably beating on it. Fortified bosses, like the Pit Fiends, noticeably reduce DPS but it is still an appreciable amount of damage. Those are practically the only SA-vulnerable monsters with fort. The types of mobs that have 100% fort, like undead (disrupters, casters do huge amounts of damage to them), elementals (hard on everyone, casters do a lot of damage on them too), constructs (smiters, none are particularly important), oozes (lol), and plants (loool), are not an extremely major problem for rogues.

Most rogue misconceptions, or misconceptions of any class in DDO, result from just reading how the class works, and not knowing how they should be played. You can look at the numbers, but you're not going to know how a good player of that class augments the numbers.

[Crann]

(Flanking does not play a role in SA's by the way).

It helps you to hit, and apply that sneak attack damage. Situationally usefull to a 3/4 BAB class.

[Qezuzu]

It helps you to hit, and apply that sneak attack damage. Situationally usefull to a 3/4 BAB class.

Divine Power.

Flanking is a minor part in a Rogue's combat style.





Having had the leader of OR make the party leader of an OR-hosted elite shroud dismiss me from the party, I'll elaborate on that day: between my first post on this thread and the creation of the rogue thread, an old friend of mine in real-life was hospitalized. He was in a car accident while driving home from college. He's stabilized now, fortunately.

[Crann]

Flanking is a minor part in a Rogue's combat style.

Well, that is a small improvement over no role whatsoever :)

I live on DP clickies on most of my "less than 100% BAB builds."

They run out.

On paper its great to say that you will be madstoned or DP'ed 24/7....but you won't be.



You may wish to take to follow your own advice though...and take it to the rogue forums.

Especially now that you have declared a motive for trolling in a recruitment thread. Nothing personal against you or for the OP, but it looks bad.

[Qezuzu]

Well, that is a small improvement over no role whatsoever :)

I live on DP clickies on most of my "less than 100% BAB builds."

They run out.

On paper its great to say that you will be madstoned or DP'ed 24/7....but you won't be.



You may wish to take to follow your own advice though...and take it to the rogue forums.

Especially now that you have declared a motive for trolling in a recruitment thread. Nothing personal against you or for the OP, but it looks bad.

DP is not required all the time. Only wish mobs you are missing on. I have about 15 minutes of it in clickie form on my rogue, but I hardly ever have to use them (epic fighting leathers help, as does the ability to UMD your own GH, and rogues get a +4 bonus to attack with SA's from the enhancment line). Rogues can get pretty overkill to-hit (+13, Tharne's, SA training, Yugo pot).

And I never trolled this thread. I made a random remark, Consumer and Unscythe derailed it and Grundus made an essay on it. I was giving an reason why I was being irrational, when I am usually more rational than your average person.

I already made a thread on the rogue forums to re-rail the thread, but it was largely ignored and Keybreaker made a different recruitment thread. Now go to that one and let this thread die.

[Clayness]

I agree, this thread could be use much more usefully by bashing paladins instead.

[Crann]

I have about 15 minutes of it in clickie form on my rogue, but I hardly ever have to use them


Too many clickies? Prepostorous, I only have Draconic Necklace, a DP ring and the Philarian Pendant.

A 15 minute DP ring? Please post a screen shot of this one.

[Qezuzu]

I never said I have such a ring. I said I have 15 minutes in clickies but in the thread you quoted me from I simply did not list anything but the ring.

The ring itself has 5 charges, which is pretty good.

I have a few other items that have 3-5 charges each which account for the 15 minute figure I noted. I have never depleted all of them, but they are there when I might need more than 5 uses, like in Epic Chains of Flame.

[Havik_Stormcrow]

I run with a few members of over raided and asked them how I ask to join. They told me to come here. I have been a steady play for awhile and was in a guild since it was lvl 2 and now its level 43. I was an officer in it and am a team player. I am leaving my main toon in the previous guild (she's a level 20 cleric named Illiayana) it just seems right to do. The reason I left I'd rather keep private but if asked that during my recruitment I will tell. It has nothing to do with guild politics or the such. I truely do respect and still keep several guildies there as friends. I am just seeing what it takes to get recruited.

[Keybreaker]

I run with a few members of over raided and asked them how I ask to join. They told me to come here. I have been a steady play for awhile and was in a guild since it was lvl 2 and now its level 43. I was an officer in it and am a team player. I am leaving my main toon in the previous guild (she's a level 20 cleric named Illiayana) it just seems right to do. The reason I left I'd rather keep private but if asked that during my recruitment I will tell. It has nothing to do with guild politics or the such. I truely do respect and still keep several guildies there as friends. I am just seeing what it takes to get recruited.

Havik, please look here for a response: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=290847

Sorry about the extra step, but this thread got hijacked a while back.

[Carpone]

I run with a few members of over raided and asked them how I ask to join. They told me to come here. I have been a steady play for awhile and was in a guild since it was lvl 2 and now its level 43. I was an officer in it and am a team player. I am leaving my main toon in the previous guild (she's a level 20 cleric named Illiayana) it just seems right to do. The reason I left I'd rather keep private but if asked that during my recruitment I will tell. It has nothing to do with guild politics or the such. I truely do respect and still keep several guildies there as friends. I am just seeing what it takes to get recruited.
Key or I will be happy to talk to you in game about the details. The essentials:

1. Be flagged for ToD (including boots), Abbot, Shroud, VON and DQ. Those are the five raids we run. We run VON and DQ on epic, so your character has to be level 20.

2. Join us for our nightly elite Shroud. This gives you a chance to meet guild members, and vice versa. If there's mutual interest, then we start a one-month trial period where you join us for other raids.

You don't need to have a savant-level of knowledge about the game, just a willingness to learn. We all started as new-to-the-game players, even Titanticus. :)