100,000 Turbine Point Sweepstakes! [Archive] - Page 2

joneb1999

12-01-2010, 07:05 PM

While I agree that it would be nice to open this to all countries, I think the motivating factor was the obscure rules that individual countries place on what is required for a sweepstakes to be legal in those countries.

After doing some quick reseach it seems that in Canada they require a skill question, usually a math problem. Brazil requires a cultural contest. Some European countries also requires skill questions.

Thus its probably easier for them to limit this to what their lawyers can lock up, considering they are based in the US and know the US laws better.

What I do not think is that Turbine just arbitrarily decided that they were ungrateful of their non-US customers. Sometimes getting the legal ramifications down pat are more important than possibly annoying your customer base.

I respect your polite and understanding approach but the fact is there will be ways around getting it done in other countries. There is no reason they cant figure it out even if they have to tailor it to various geographic markets and it means in the end instead of just one 100k turbine points the first prize would be 10k to each segment of that market which is still considerable. Since TP isn't cash and non transferable there is no reason I can see it couldnt be 100k to each geographic segment.

Its bad news and will be noted.

Zigiban

12-01-2010, 07:11 PM

joneb1999

12-01-2010, 07:18 PM

I'm going to make these my last statements and it's something I have repeated to my children over and over again.

"Nobody is entitled to everything".

"Life isn't fair".

"All rules do not apply to everyone".

These are simple and basic facts of life.
I leave you to your continued ridiculous outrage. I hope you never run into anything that ACTUALLY matters because you would probably completely lose control.

We have the right to free speech at least in my country. Anyone who has paid for this game has every right to be outraged when a competition with an outrageous reward in regards to the product they have payed for is withheld from them because of where they live. Where we live doesnt stop Turbine taking our money.

Life isnt fair but it could be if everyone played fair. Just because they do not does not make that fact justified. All rules do not apply to everyone but everyone has the right to be unhappy when there is bias or apathy against them.

As for something that matters to someone that is often open to various relevance to different people for different reasons.

Theres just too much ignorance, selfishness and greed in this world that people try to justify. People are not entitled to everything but we have certain given rights even if in this case its only free speech and walking with our money elsewhere.

joneb1999

12-01-2010, 07:24 PM

Ok so im living outside the US,

I want to enter, so i click on the Trail link rather than existing, it takes me to the Turbine page (which btw says 1000's of players from ALL OVER THE WORLD, so theres that global arguement again. )

I sign up for a new account, it doesnt ask for a location, just an email addy and it just creates me a turbine account to play the game. I dont have to buy anything. So they dont have my location details. I enter the contest. Wee im in.. Not only that.. but i'm given 250 free tp's to play around with? Now, im not saying im going to.. but 5xastral diamonds for my guild for my free 200 tp? sold!

So effectively they havent asked for my location details, i'm in the game with a working account, i can create as many accounts as i have email address's and i get effectively unlimited astral diamonds? hokay... im spotting a slight flaw with this... And yes i know its illegal to do, but how do they monitor this if they are only asking for an Email address?. Are you tracking IP's and not telling us Turbine?

Can anyone point out where it says that DDO/Turbine/Warner Bro's have the right to ask for your address details AFTER you win the prize? Cuz it isnt a requirment for sign up. (it might be in ToC/EULA but TL: DR)

might be completely off base here, but im happy to be shot down if someone spots a flaw...

<edit : spelling sucks>

The flaw is your ip address unless you are going through some kind of proxy hiding this. The flaw will be in the fact they havent bothered to lock out ip addresses for other countries or csuch proxy servers but they wil be able to detect them. The flaw is you just told Turbine what you are trying to do like a villain in a movie explaining everything thinking he has won just before his plan gets thwarted. Muhahahaha ;) LoL By the way there is no law against blocking out ip addresses. It happens all the time when trying to access a lot of video and tv content through websites that is not released to different countries.

PopeJual

12-01-2010, 07:28 PM

I respect your polite and understanding approach but the fact is there will be ways around getting it done in other countries. There is no reason they cant figure it out even if they have to tailor it to various geographic markets and it means in the end instead of just one 100k turbine points the first prize would be 10k to each segment of that market which is still considerable. Since TP isn't cash and non transferable there is no reason I can see it couldnt be 100k to each geographic segment.

Its bad news and will be noted.

How many countries would they have had to include in order to satisfy you?

I keep hearing people talk about the "majority" of players, so would a majority of countries be sufficient? Since there are over 200 countries by my count, that would be more than 100 different giveaways for Turbine to create and that would have just been unfair in a different way because any given person in Luxembourg would have a vastly greater chance of winning than some person in the United States and the District of Columbia (not including Puerto Rico, the US Virgin Islands, Guam or any overseas military base, territory or posession).

In addition to the differently-unfair nature of those giveaways, it would also be a research and logistics nightmare for Turbine/Warner Brothers. They certainly *could* do all of that legal and accounting research, but I think you underestimate what would be involved in that long, expensive, and labor-intensive process.

joneb1999

12-01-2010, 07:33 PM

How many countries would they have had to include in order to satisfy you?

I keep hearing people talk about the "majority" of players, so would a majority of countries be sufficient? Since there are over 200 countries by my count, that would be more than 100 different giveaways for Turbine to create and that would have just been unfair in a different way because any given person in Luxembourg would have a vastly greater chance of winning than some person in the United States and the District of Columbia (not including Puerto Rico, the US Virgin Islands, Guam or any overseas military base, territory or posession).

In addition to the differently-unfair nature of those giveaways, it would also be a research and logistics nightmare for Turbine/Warner Brothers. They certainly *could* do all of that legal and accounting research, but I think you underestimate what would be involved in that long, expensive, and labor-intensive process.

So itsfair to pick out the United States is it from all other countries? By the way NCSoft has made quite a lot of it Guild Wars competitions international. How did they manage that? No offense but Turbine can do wha they wantin this case. It just means its really upset a large part of its market unless you think before the europe severs joined that the new players enticed by the new f2p format, who helped give the game a new lease of life, were just US based.

PopeJual

12-01-2010, 07:34 PM

Can anyone point out where it says that DDO/Turbine/Warner Bro's have the right to ask for your address details AFTER you win the prize? Cuz it isnt a requirment for sign up. (it might be in ToC/EULA but TL: DR)

You do not win the prize when your name gets pulled out of the virtual hat.

You win the prize after you you fulfil all of your prize-related notifications and affidavits of eligibility, etc.

It isn't a requirement for the sign up, but it is listed in the rules of the giveaway.
Full Rules: http://www.ddo.com/news/1243-sweepstakes

POTENTIAL WINNER SELECTION AND NOTIFICATION: Potential winners will be selected in a random drawing on or about January 15, 2011, by Sponsor or its designee, the judge of the Sweepstakes, whose decisions are final and binding on all matters relating to the Sweepstakes (“Potential Winners”). Entrants need not be present to win. Each Potential Winner will be notified by e-mail ("Prize Notification") and (or their parents or legal guardians if Potential Winners are an eligible minor) must provide by e-mail within five (5) days of the date of the Prize Notification (the "Deadline"), his/her full name and a mailing address ("Mailing Information") where Sponsor can send the Prizes. The mailing address must be a street address (no P.O. boxes). If a Potential Winner does not provide the Mailing Information in response to the Prize Notification by the Deadline, he/she will be disqualified and an alternate Potential Winner will be selected from all eligible entries received for the original drawing. Potential Winners may be required to complete, sign, and return to Sponsor, an Affidavit of Eligibility and Liability/Publicity Release (or their parents or legal guardians if Potential Winners are an eligible minor). Once Sponsor receives a Potential Winner's Mailing Information and if required by Sponsor, a completed and signed Affidavit of Eligibility and Liability/Publicity Release, Sponsor shall declare that Potential Winner is a winner (“Winner”). Return of any Prize Notification or Prizes will result in disqualification, an alternate Potential Winner will be selected from all eligible entries received for the original drawing, and Sponsor shall repeat the winner selection and notification procedures set forth in this Section 6 until a qualified Winner has been selected.

Xanthain

12-01-2010, 07:35 PM

First let me say I am canadian and i really dont care if i can enter this contest or not. If I could I would but I cant.. meh.

Secondly, before i read about this contest i was thinking about the festivault (its that time of year again). After reading this contest and seeing all the disapointed customers i got to thinking... why wasnt this contest handled through the festivault Jester ? Also is the jester even coming back this year :eek: or has the new "lottery System" replaced the old promotional event ?

PopeJual

12-01-2010, 07:36 PM

So itsfair to pick out the United States is it from all other countries? Bythe way NCSoft has made quite a lot of it Guild Wars competitions international. How did they manage that?

I'm not saying that it's fair. Where did you see me write that this contest is fair?

I'm merely saying that it is a nice thing for Turbine to do and that it is unreasonable to expect them to include a large number of different countries and that even including a large number of different countries would *still* be unfair - it would just be unfair in a different way or to a different number of people.

Zigiban

12-01-2010, 07:37 PM

The flaw is your ip address unless you are going through some kind of proxy hiding this. The flaw will be in the fact they havent bothered to lock out ip addresses for other countries or csuch proxy servers but they wil be able to detect them. The flaw is you just told Turbine what you are trying to do like a villain in a movie explaining everything thinking he has won just before his plan gets thwarted. Muhahahaha ;) LoL By the way there is no law against blocking out ip addresses. It happens all the time when trying to access a lot of video and tv content through websites that is not released to different countries.

Exactly, i dont plan on exploiting it myself, i was just stating for those people whom are gnashing teeth that there is always a way around it. If i *do* happen to run a US based Proxy, how do the "overlords" know where im based? and once you win it, where in the rules does it say i have to provide my details?

My point was more that the signup could be a lil more secure to stop things like this happening, and that maybe if enough non-us based users exploited this, it would get the Overlords thinkning about different ways of delivering prizes to its player base. 100,000 Tps sure sounds nice, but instead of offering something to a part of the community, keep it like the in game Lotto and only offer prizes that are delivered ingame. Maybe 1 off unique items like a Potion of Unlimited Cure Critical Wounds, + some other stuff, maybe offering a premade guild at lvl 80 you could name and all the buffs you can think of. I dont know exactly what you could create ingame that would have the same effect as 100,000 tp but if they'd thought about their prize a lil better... would have been nice.

If someone said you had the chance to win a set of complete GS raid gear and a Unlimited potion of heals instead of 100k tp's people would still be entering and we wouldnt have this us vs everyone else problem. Now the cats outa the bag though... so everyone will say. :"thats not worth 100k tps!" True, im being hypo-"pathetical" and saying if you never had the shot at 100k you wouldnt even be comparing it.

I still would have prefered an In game lotto based prize to a bigger prize only available to a select few.

joneb1999

12-01-2010, 07:43 PM

I'm not saying that it's fair. Where did you see me write that this contest is fair?

I'm merely saying that it is a nice thing for Turbine to do and that it is unreasonable to expect them to include a large number of different countries and that even including a large number of different countries would *still* be unfair - it would just be unfair in a different way or to a different number of people.

Like I said it just means its really upset a large part of its market unless you think before the europe severs joined that the new players enticed by the new f2p format, who helped give the game a new lease of life, were just US based.

Maybe they think thats irrelevant. Oh and what about getting sponsors in other countrie to run the competition. There are other avenues they could go down. Its their business and my business to get my ass out of dodge when GW2 comes out or maybe for Rifts. I play just one mmo and Turbine need to win my loyalty as I pay them and not them me. Same for everyone else vip or buying points. Bottom line.

Rumbaar

12-01-2010, 07:46 PM

How many countries would Turbine have to include to satisfy you?The exact same amount that can access the current myDDO lottery system.

I agree with you that the game points have no monetary value, but the IRS (or the bureau of taxation or revenue service of your country) may disagree with that understanding.How is this not an issue with the current myDDO lottery system? What is 100 Major SP Elixir pots, that were given away in the past. Amongst many other prizes.

I dont understand why this isnt available for everyone anyway, and just dealt with the same as any other in-game lottery (not that Ive seen one in months).

Sure the 100k TP has a monatary value *IF* you were purchasing TP, but your not. Your given 100k TP, which cant be traded for a cash equivilent (and is also no different to any other lottery on DDO (ie virtual goods).

If the US tax laws forbid people outside the US doing this lottery..does this mean we can no longer enter any other lottery in DDO? (same system just lesser value).I've been trying to make this point myself.

+1

Boromirs

12-01-2010, 07:50 PM

Cheaters: What if someone signs up a 1000 different new accounts on both games and then registers 2000 times?!!

Is there a way to stop these people?

Kindoki

12-01-2010, 07:50 PM

This could have been a quote prior to 1776

Yeah equal rights for all

Ooh! Ooh! Compare them to Hitler now! I love it when people do that! It's so original, and clearly the comparison is apt! :rolleyes:

Slugnutty

12-01-2010, 07:51 PM

Mockduck.......................................... ....................

T_T *tears of joy*

I'm in the contest.

Edit: I love you................

Dude - Really - Jerry is NOT giving you the points - Turbine is - Jerry now works for the MAN he is now them and has been assimilated - and the last time they tried something like this (or have we forgotten the offer wall soooo quickly?) personal information was freely given to less-than-reputable 3rd parties - the first thing I thought of when I read this was who's getting the list this time?

What would I do with the points cordovan? Go Premium in a femtosecond, pocket my subscription money and laugh!

PopeJual

12-01-2010, 07:51 PM

We have the right to free speech at least in my country. Anyone who has paid for this game has every right to be outraged when a competition with an outrageous reward in regards to the product they have payed for is withheld from them because of where they live. Where we live doesnt stop Turbine taking our money.

You have a right to be outraged, but I would like to point out that you do *NOT* have a right to free speech on a private forum that is entirely owned and operated by Turbine. No country in the world guarantees free speech in a private forum. Many countries guarantee free speech in a PUBLIC forum, but none do so on a private forum.

Life isnt fair but it could be if everyone played fair.

This is not only unrealistic, but also just plain incorrect. It's actually a similar paradox to Kurt Goedel's proof that any Algebra must be either incomplete or inconsistant*. There are different understandings of fair and any effort at increasing the fairness of one aspect of a sufficiently complex system will eventually reach a limit where it will have a negative impact on the fairness of another aspect of the system. Just like PvP cannot be perfectly balanced while PvE is perfectly balanced (and vice versa), no working societal system can ever be perfectly fair.

Just because they do not does not make that fact justified. All rules do not apply to everyone but everyone has the right to be unhappy when there is bias or apathy against them.

If all rules do not apply to all people, then that is obviously not fair.

If all rules do apply to all people, then that is also not fair because not all people are able to follow all rules in the same way because of various disabilities, etc.

Theres just too much ignorance, selfishness and greed in this world that people try to justify.

I agree and I am glad that you are now taking a stand against the people who are bringing their torches and pitchforks to Turbine's moat with their ignorance, selfishness and greed.

People are not entitled to everything but we have certain given rights even if in this case its only free speech and walking with our money elsewhere.

I agree. No one is entitled to eligibility in this giveaway. It's a giveaway. Turbine is giving people free stuff. No one is entitled to free stuff. Stop being outraged that someone is giving someone else free stuff and not giving it to you.

If you want to take your money elsewhere in some hissy fit, that's your business, but don't try to pretend that you're taking the moral high ground while you bite your nose off to spite your face.

If Turbine decides to put their loot up for /roll to legal residents of the United States and the District of Columbia because it would be too much work for their legal/accounting departments to do otherwise, that's their business. Stop complaining that you weren't given an opportunity to /roll on free loot.

*I know that some people would disagree with Goedel's proof because of a disagreement on set theory and their argument that the definition of a set should include a limitation that prevents self-reference, but I obviously disagree with those people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_G%C3%B6del

joneb1999

12-01-2010, 07:53 PM

Ooh! Ooh! Compare them to Hitler now! I love it when people do that! It's so original, and clearly the comparison is apt! :rolleyes:
Its the basic principle thats obviously lost on you.

mudfud

12-01-2010, 07:55 PM

Two 2nd place winners get lifetime subscriptions to either game

With the lifetime subsciption will the 2 winners still get the 500 turbine points a month?

PopeJual

12-01-2010, 07:55 PM

The exact same amount that can access the current myDDO lottery system.

You want Turbine to figure out the laws on this issue for every single country in the world. Awesome. I'm sure that their legal department has nothing better to do with their time.

How is this not an issue with the current myDDO lottery system? What is 100 Major SP Elixir pots, that were given away in the past. Amongst many other prizes.

Giving away a virtual item is different than giving away a great big chunk of virtual currency. The IRS is not going to prosecute me for failing to report a bracelet of friends. The IRS would very likely call me in if I failed to report winnings valued at $1000 and they were notified of that fact.

PopeJual

12-01-2010, 07:58 PM

Its their business and my business to get my ass out of dodge when GW2 comes out or maybe for Rifts.

There's a Rifts MMORPG coming?

I no longer care about this discussion on Turbine's point giveaway and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter on Rifts online information.

PopeJual

12-01-2010, 08:01 PM

Yeah equal rights for all

Chatuycsha wins the internets, because it is entirely obvious that "no taxation without representation" and "representative government" == "gimme free loot outside the US"

Tumani

12-01-2010, 08:02 PM

This did not work for me, but by searching for more info around ddo.com I found this

http://my.ddo.com/contest

which works

I tried that same exact link.....my.ddo.com/contest and got nothing but a window with "Error"

pSINNa

12-01-2010, 08:02 PM

So itsfair to pick out the United States is it from all other countries? By the way NCSoft has made quite a lot of it Guild Wars competitions international. How did they manage that? No offense but Turbine can do wha they wantin this case. It just means its really upset a large part of its market unless you think before the europe severs joined that the new players enticed by the new f2p format, who helped give the game a new lease of life, were just US based.

The reasons would be legal, no doubt about it, a previous post has mentioned 'how many countries could you include to make everyone happy, this so called 'majority''.

Imagine the massive legal tangle to be unwound to even include a handfull of non-usa countries, which would of course double the indignation of any player from a country that wasn't included in the end.

I am Australian myself, and can't enter this competition, but i'm not up for bashing Turbine about it.

The increasing legal tangle surrounding every aspect of our lives is more to be blamed then anything else, and it's just a part of modern life, these things happen, really, i perceive no intended injustice here, just a 'that's how it is, get used to it' situation, they are a common part of daily life. It's a little side affect of the majority's need to be protected by legal cotton wool in all situations, and everything has an oppurtunity cost.

Injustice should be fought, wrongs righted, but things that can't be changed should just be accepted.

My two cents.

Coit out~

Garseya

12-01-2010, 08:05 PM

You are now registered in the 100,000 point sweepstakes

/signed

joneb1999

12-01-2010, 08:12 PM

You have a right to be outraged, but I would like to point out that you do *NOT* have a right to free speech on a private forum that is entirely owned and operated by Turbine. No country in the world guarantees free speech in a private forum. Many countries guarantee free speech in a PUBLIC forum, but none do so on a private forum.

This is not only unrealistic, but also just plain incorrect. It's actually a similar paradox to Kurt Goedel's proof that any Algebra must be either incomplete or inconsistant*. There are different understandings of fair and any effort at increasing the fairness of one aspect of a sufficiently complex system will eventually reach a limit where it will have a negative impact on the fairness of another aspect of the system. Just like PvP cannot be perfectly balanced while PvE is perfectly balanced (and vice versa), no working societal system can ever be perfectly fair.

If all rules do not apply to all people, then that is obviously not fair.

If all rules do apply to all people, then that is also not fair because not all people are able to follow all rules in the same way because of various disabilities, etc.

I agree and I am glad that you are now taking a stand against the people who are bringing their torches and pitchforks to Turbine's moat with their ignorance, selfishness and greed.

I agree. No one is entitled to eligibility in this giveaway. It's a giveaway. Turbine is giving people free stuff. No one is entitled to free stuff. Stop being outraged that someone is giving someone else free stuff and not giving it to you.

If you want to take your money elsewhere in some hissy fit, that's your business, but don't try to pretend that you're taking the moral high ground while you bite your nose off to spite your face.

If Turbine decides to put their loot up for /roll to legal residents of the United States and the District of Columbia because it would be too much work for their legal/accounting departments to do otherwise, that's their business. Stop complaining that you weren't given an opportunity to /roll on free loot.

*I know that some people would disagree with Goedel's proof because of a disagreement on set theory and their argument that the definition of a set should include a limitation that prevents self-reference, but I obviously disagree with those people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_G%C3%B6del

I live in the real world and the last thing I beleive is that these theorists, philosophers, scientists and whatever you call them have any more insight than me to make statements such as those they make.

Also if this is a "free giveaway" then shouldnt their be less of a problem.

Let me quote one very famous philosophical term. "Im alright Jack". That seems to to be the bottom line of many arguments here.

joneb1999

12-01-2010, 08:13 PM

The reasons would be legal, no doubt about it, a previous post has mentioned 'how many countries could you include to make everyone happy, this so called 'majority''.

Imagine the massive legal tangle to be unwound to even include a handfull of non-usa countries, which would of course double the indignation of any player from a country that wasn't included in the end.

I am Australian myself, and can't enter this competition, but i'm not up for bashing Turbine about it.

The increasing legal tangle surrounding every aspect of our lives is more to be blamed then anything else, and it's just a part of modern life, these things happen, really, i perceive no intended injustice here, just a 'that's how it is, get used to it' situation, they are a common part of daily life. It's a little side affect of the majority's need to be protected by legal cotton wool in all situations, and everything has an oppurtunity cost.

Injustice should be fought, wrongs righted, but things that can't be changed should just be accepted.

My two cents.

Coit out~

So how can ncsoft do international competitions for Guildwars?

Rumbaar

12-01-2010, 08:16 PM

You want Turbine to figure out the laws on this issue for every single country in the world. Awesome. I'm sure that their legal department has nothing better to do with their time.No, there isn't a need. The current myDDO Lottery system doesn't. Then a lottery based on that same premise will not require any more effort on their behalf.

Giving away a virtual item is different than giving away a great big chunk of virtual currency. The IRS is not going to prosecute me for failing to report a bracelet of friends. The IRS would very likely call me in if I failed to report winnings valued at $1000 and they were notified of that fact.TP have no value out of game, this is repeated on ad nauseum from Turbine themselves. So that's not valid.

The only issue is 2nd prize, and if it's the only reason it's not international. Then a smart person would have excluded it.

100 x Concentrated Elixir of Major Mnemonic Enhancement = 1495 TP

GreenDragonStalker

12-01-2010, 08:18 PM

Well since the only requirement is a US adress IM guessing this will be good enough

http://bongous.com/?gclid=CI-02K3AzKUCFQN7gwodMxUsmQ

Twitchster

12-01-2010, 08:18 PM

So how can ncsoft do international competitions for Guildwars?

In-game competitions are not the same animal as out of game contests.

Most everybody complaining should take a moment.. google about international contest rules and problems.. count to 10.. and realize there are bigger things in life to worry about than a stupid give-a-way.

holfrar

12-01-2010, 08:19 PM

Just post this before i go to bed.

Best thing Turbine can do is to scrap the whole thing, that way EVERYBODY is happy...

.....Right?

joneb1999

12-01-2010, 08:23 PM

In-game competitions are not the same animal as out of game contests.

Most everybody complaining should take a moment.. google about international contest rules and problems.. count to 10.. and realize there are bigger things in life to worry about than a stupid give-a-way.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=202861
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=279412
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=182884

Ever seen this in Turbine conditions.... "Void where prohibited by law. No purchase necessary to enter or win." I just did.

Why couldnt the competition be done similar to these so everyone can join in?

Stupid giveaway? Think this. I am unemployed. Struggling for cash. I wouldnt ever need another DDO subscription with those points! I play the game as real life sucks and doing much anything else is even more expensive in the long run. Any chance to save money is a bonus. This is why the game I pay to play is so relevant to me.

pSINNa

12-01-2010, 08:23 PM

So how can ncsoft do international competitions for Guildwars?

You'd have to ask them yourself.

If the reasons behind it are really something that you want to find out, then please do, and let us all know, as the best that has been managed so far is intelligent (mostly) conjecture at this point.

The corporate structure of the parent company, and it's registered nation of operation, the laws of which apply to it's products and the agreeements under which it's distribution network operate online would probably have a lot to do with it though.

joneb1999

12-01-2010, 08:27 PM

You'd have to ask them yourself.

If the reasons behind it are really something that you want to find out, then please do, and let us all know, as the best that has been managed so far is intelligent (mostly) conjecture at this point.

The corporate structure of the parent company, and it's registered nation of operation, the laws of which apply to it's products and the agreeements under which it's distribution network operate online would probably have a lot to do with it though.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=202861
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=279412
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=182884

Ever seen this in Turbine conditions.... "Void where prohibited by law. No purchase necessary to enter or win." I just did.

Thriand

12-01-2010, 08:35 PM

Just post this before i go to bed.

Best thing Turbine can do is to scrap the whole thing, that way EVERYBODY is happy...

.....Right?

Really so you want to go the "I can't have it, so neither can you" route. Scraping the whole thing wouldn't make anyone happy, those unable to participate might be slightly more appeased, but I doubt they'd be happy given the whole situation in the first place, unless they really just like to see others being punished because they couldn't participate. And those who can participate definitely aren't going to be happy, meaning all in all canceling would probably just make the incessant whining worse.

joneb1999

12-01-2010, 08:38 PM

Turbine even adjusted out the us resident rules in this competition..
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=182884

frznvimes

12-01-2010, 08:39 PM

TP have no value out of game, this is repeated on ad nauseum from Turbine themselves. So that's not valid.
I have no particular insight into the tax system, but I think you may be correct based on what irs.gov says

When you win a prize, you report its fair market value as misc income:
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=175963,00.html
Fair market value is the amount that the property would sell for on the open market between an informed buyer and seller:
http://www.irs.gov/publications/p561/ar02.html
It is specifically mentioned that fair market value must also reflect any usage restrictions placed on the property in question.
Turbine does not allow tp to be sold by anyone apart from turbine itself, therefore I would think they have no fair market value to any party apart from turbine.

If I won I'd definitely check with my accountant before accepting the prize though. You can't be taxed on any prizes you don't accept, and entering doesn't obligate you to accept a prize if you do win.

Talimannn

12-01-2010, 08:41 PM

Don't forget about Asia and South America.
There is total about 9.000.000.000 people in the world, 310.000.000 lives in US. Of course, Africans and people from poor countries don't play this game, but still I won't bellive that there is more players in US than in the rest of world.

And why exactly wouldnt people in Africa or poor countries play a game? Your presuming a lot there and since I DID live in Africa and play online games for alot of years and also know quiet a few people on the various servers who live in africa I would think that blatant statement is due an appology to them.

Your presuming here that they are living in slums with no hot water / electric?

That post is bordering on blatant racism there.

KoboldKiller

12-01-2010, 08:42 PM

nvm

joneb1999

12-01-2010, 08:51 PM

[
nvm
Fair enough I edited my post too

Pigmy

12-01-2010, 08:54 PM

How cosmopolitan ;)

lazylaz

12-01-2010, 09:10 PM

I am Australian myself, and can't enter this competition, but i'm not up for bashing Turbine about it.

Coit out~

We can enter, I have. We just can't win it. And I'm not bashing Turbine about it either since its just one of those things. Though a little forethought in the advertising would have saved a bit of grief.

And I can't believe I read through all this garbage.

whitehawk74

12-01-2010, 09:18 PM

this is an ace contest IF you are in the us. if you are european or from somewhere else in the planet they say "screw you, you cant play or win."

yep, another case of the USA being 'the whole world'...

As they say here in Australia to arseholes, "Get a dog up ya!".. So Turbine, please do that.
There arnt many Aussies playing the game but there is a sh*tload of NON US citizens - I hope you have turned people away from P2P because of this act of ignorance and rudeness.

joneb1999

12-01-2010, 09:23 PM

yep, another case of the USA being 'the whole world'...

As they say here in Australia to arseholes, "Get a dog up ya!".. So Turbine, please do that.
There arnt many Aussies playing the game but there is a sh*tload of NON US citizens - I hope you have turned people away from P2P because of this act of ignorance and rudeness.

Phew before you came on I was thinking after reading the last two aussies posts that you guys just accepted people walking all over you like most of us brits. ;) :p

Talimannn

12-01-2010, 09:25 PM

This is what you agreed to when you started playing the game:

[CENTER]TURBINE, INC.
DUNGEONS & DRAGONS ONLINE®
TERMS OF SERVICE

(snipped out the entire eula

6. Turbine Points. You may obtain “Turbine Points” from Turbine (or a third party authorized by Turbine) for use in connection with the Account. Turbine Points are a virtual currency which you may, at Turbine’s discretion, exchange for virtual goods, services and attributes that can only be used in the Game. Turbine Points have no monetary value, and are not personal property.

So if the t&c state quite clearly that TP have no monetary value. How can it remotely incur any taxes on a prize of Virtual currency.

If its then none taxable as being virtual currency, it would then be subject to the gambling laws at all.

Another point.

If turbine / WB wanted to do this, why then didnt they simply make a kick a## armour / gear set and offer that as a virtual prize ingame.

Another option would be to have given the winner a choice of a certain number of epic items of their choice.

To make that attractice to new incoming players as its supposedly intended to be. give them unique item sets that are not available to anyone else. ie. an armour set that auto upgrades itself to your character lvl. Bound to account.

There are so many way they could have done this and got the new player base they wanted, instead of alienating a lot of their existing players.

Very badly thought out on their part, and nothing at all to do with gambling laws outside the US. They could just as easily made this an ingame prize and get around that, exactly as they did with the ingame lotteries.

Turbine subscription = cancelled
I will not pay VIP (and international payment bank charges) for a game that treats their none US players like trash.

lazylaz

12-01-2010, 09:31 PM

Phew before you came on I was thinking after reading the last two aussies posts that you guys just accepted people walking all over you like most of us brits. ;) :p

LOL mate, I'm not happy about it either. There's just not much I can do about it.

People walking on me hurts, unless they have massage-worthy toes and heels.

whitehawk74

12-01-2010, 09:32 PM

Isnt it then just better for them not to do this kind of contests?
Sure people like contests but now they are cutting alot of people out of it now due to laws and taxes in other countries etc..
+1
I think the negative rep they receive from this is going to massively out weigh the positive. Not posting it in the first place would have been wiser.

PopeJual

12-01-2010, 09:32 PM

So if the t&c state quite clearly that TP have no monetary value. How can it remotely incur any taxes on a prize of Virtual currency.

The fact that Turbine says something does not men that the IRS agrees with them.

If its then none taxable as being virtual currency, it would then be subject to the gambling laws at all.

Gambling is when you pay for a chance at a prize with a monetary value. You do not have to (and do not even have an opportunity to) pay for a chance at this prize.

Turbine subscription = cancelled
I will not pay VIP (and international payment bank charges) for a game that treats their none US players like trash.

Have you also stopped drinking soda, wearing name brand sneakers, buying any name brand blue jeans or shopping at chain stores? Because they all have contests with the exact same rules as Turbine's giveaway.

joneb1999

12-01-2010, 09:33 PM

LOL mate, I'm not happy about it either. There's just not much I can do about it.

People walking on me hurts, unless they have massage-worthy toes and heels.

lol

PopeJual

12-01-2010, 09:36 PM

Well since the only requirement is a US adress IM guessing this will be good enough

http://bongous.com/?gclid=CI-02K3AzKUCFQN7gwodMxUsmQ

As long as you're willing to lie on an affidavit stating that you are a legal resident of the United States or the District of Columbia and not Puerto Rico, the US Virgin Islands, any overseas military base, territory or posession, etc., then yes, that probably would be good enough.

pSINNa

12-01-2010, 09:37 PM

Phew before you came on I was thinking after reading the last two aussies posts that you guys just accepted people walking all over you like most of us brits. ;) :p

Really?? No acceptable comment i can come up with to that other then, i'll stop feeding the trolls now.

Coit out~

Lorien_the_First_One

12-01-2010, 09:41 PM

Have you also stopped drinking soda, wearing name brand sneakers, buying any name brand blue jeans or shopping at chain stores? Because they all have contests with the exact same rules as Turbine's giveaway.

In those cases its because they run alternate promotions and contests in different countries.

The McD's monopoly in the US may not be open to Canadians, but the is a Canadian version of the game that runs as well. Coke US runs an NFL promotion, meanwhile Coke Canada runs an NHL one. They basically don't want to step on each other as related, but often seperately incorporated and seperately owned compaines. And all of their customers in all countries get opportunties so no one is really disadvantaged or snubbed.

See how that's different than Turbine, the only provider, is only serving part of their customer base?

The above territorial thing may even be the reason for the standard WB boiler plate. WB US sells the rights movie/tv rights to their product in other countries and can't compete against whoever is marketting WB products in those other countries. Promotional contests for that WB content thus must be limited to where they maintain the rights. This may have accidentally carried over to Turbine in the takeover due to laziness or negligance or just lack of thinking about it.

arjiwan

12-01-2010, 09:41 PM

I am a non-US player.

Complain to your govt comment
I understand that there are legalities so that they could not add non-US players, but adding in the argument "complain to your government" does not help. Maybe being reasonable will lift some of the negative feelings this thread already have.

Life is not fair argument
Am I angry 'coz I can't join? No, but I am disappointed. "Too bad I can't join" said myself, and some will say, "Life is not fair live with it." Again, it doesn't help. It's not about life being fair or not, that's not the argument here. We already know life is not fair, that's is why there are only 1st, 2nd and 3rd prize winners. If life is fair, DDO will "do an Oprah" and give everybody Turbine points without us doing anything. "Look under your keyboards, you got ddo points, you got ddo points!"

Advertising
If you read the announcement, the first part is, create a new account. For me, IMO, Warner wants new accounts, meaning new players, so it is more of an investment for them. So business is business. I understand that. Maybe the situation will also lighten up if they say in the advertisement that it is only for US only, not just in the Terms in Conditions, or just one guy / gal from turbine reply to this thread saying, "Sorry guys, legal issues", instead of nothing. Others will still say hateful comments, well, haters will hate.

Why not in-game so that others can join?
Again, it is for WB, new customers, new possible income.

TL/DR
Just be reasonable guys. =)

Talimannn

12-01-2010, 09:45 PM

Have you also stopped drinking soda, wearing name brand sneakers, buying any name brand blue jeans or shopping at chain stores? Because they all have contests with the exact same rules as Turbine's giveaway.

I dont drink soda, I drink no name brand from a locally private owned shop. I dont wear designer / named clothes either, I'd rather buy better none commercialised locally hand made gear. I also cant think of a chain store near me lol. Possibly the post office, but rarely do they ever have contests that I know of.

I also dont pay them a monthly fee to go shopping there.

Your point was?

My point was that I will not contribute my cash to a company that deliberatly excludes those that are supposedly part of their global community of players from a contest. My cash is contributing to their salary but they can not be bothered to work out a globally compatible contest for their players.

I'm not contributing to their salary until they actually start considering me part of that community of players with the same rights / perks as the rest of them.

I think this lack of forsight on their part will have a big impact on their overseas player base, I already know of one game magazine over here that will be running a story on this and again questioning Turbines commitment to their 'global' player base, and before you ask, no I have nothing to do with the magazine and its not a small local one either, it is in fact one of the large national magazines. You'll probably see it soon enough when it comes out.

Turbine have shot themselves in the foot with this by excluding a large part of their players instead of thinking this through properly and making it available to all.

whitehawk74

12-01-2010, 10:01 PM

Dear Turbine / WB,

I have given you money to play this game just like many non US citizens, and through the use of these profits you have been able to run this sweepstakes, yet you exclude many of those same paying users.
What a disgraceful disrespectful backhand slapping you have just handed out. This exclusion is discriminatory. Do non US citizens get a discount when buying Turbine Points? no? I'm so glad that you have made it so that you do not miss out.

Honestly, how did you think the rest of the world was going to react?
Please think before you post.

Signed, An angry paying customer.

mudfud

12-01-2010, 10:02 PM

frznvimes

12-01-2010, 10:07 PM

See how that's different than Turbine, the only provider, is only serving part of their customer base?
Because Coke and McDonalds are HUUUUUUUGE (and they make people HUUUUUUUGE)! They're also in a different industry, and you're talking about different kinds of contests. They're not really a good comparison.

Talimannn

12-01-2010, 10:10 PM

Am I reading this all right? People are complaining because this contest is only open to US residents and so forth?
I didn't see much complaining when the europeans got free TP for moving here.
I'm sure that Turbine will have a contest later that's open to Europeans only and not US residents.

They got the TP to keep them from moving to other games while they waited months for their accounts to move over, it was also for them to move their characters onto the servers their usa based accounts were on. This happened because they closed the servers that many had already spent a fortune on (none f2p servers btw) buying all the packs and paying VIP subs for.

hmmm incidentally, it was to move them to a GLOBAL server, the same one they are now excluding them from the community on.

whitehawk74

12-01-2010, 10:12 PM

Am I reading this all right? People are complaining because this contest is only open to US residents and so forth?
I didn't see much complaining when the europeans got free TP for moving here.
I'm sure that Turbine will have a contest later that's open to Europeans only and not US residents.
You are sure they will do that?
I highly doubt that they could even if they felt that they could make a profit out of it. The details would be a nightmare. Do people know how many countries are considered 'European'? Even if it was limited to those countries who only use the Euro as currency there would still be massive problems.
The best course of action would to have either never made the sweepstakes, or been more upfront about it being only for US citizens (eg: on the front page) before people gave away their details.

mudfud

12-01-2010, 10:21 PM

You are sure they will do that?
I highly doubt that they could even if they felt that they could make a profit out of it. The details would be a nightmare. Do people know how many countries are considered 'European'? Even if it was limited to those countries who only use the Euro as currency there would still be massive problems.
The best course of action would to have either never made the sweepstakes, or been more upfront about it being only for US citizens (eg: on the front page) before people gave away their details.

Well yeah Im just saying I'm certain that turbine isn't purposely leaving out european players. It's either a gross oversight only including the US part or they are planning another for 'non-US residents'.

Thanks for clearing up the TP part Talimannn.

donfilibuster

12-01-2010, 10:40 PM

Open to legal residents in the 50 United States and the District of Columbia

Market fail.

/rant on
Do you know why d&d failed sales in latin america? because the translation was awful and the distrubution was worse.
But hobbie shops just keep making a living off other products and d&d fans simply bought english versions via mail.
For generations, but naturally sales off the official channels never count toward market studies.

And lets not go into saying it's the money figures that counts, coz dirty strategies are all over the place.
From hollywood banding against japanese series to chain stores barring the distribution of games like with, say, yu-gi-oh vs. magic.
We end buyers never get the true facts of course, just the gossip, but sometimes it is too obvious, hidden in plain sight.

At least these days companies like disney put a little more effort in translations.
If you think, for example, that a show like hannah montana was bad, think of having a really bad translation on top of it.
But somewhere on earth it'd show up on some sales report, and consumer preferences should crawl up no matter how distorted the figures get.
/rant off

TechNoFear

12-01-2010, 10:53 PM

Warner Brothers has offices all round the world.
These offices run contests and so know the local laws.

Why could Turbine not use this library of legal advice/boilerplate? (ie make it a condition of entry that we comply with the local WB contest regulations.)

The reasons would be legal, no doubt about it, a previous post has mentioned 'how many countries could you include to make everyone happy, this so called 'majority''.

I think this list would make most customers 'happy';

UNITED STATES,
CANADA,
MEXICO,
BRAZIL,
ARGENTINA,
CHILE,
COLUMBIA,
PERU,
PANAMA,
ECUADOR,
AUSTRALIA,
NEW ZEALAND,
INDONESIA,
THE PHILIPPINES,
MALAYSIA,
SINGAPORE,
SOUTH KOREA,
TAIWAN,
FRANCE,
BELGIUM,
THE UNITED KINGDOM,
LUXEMBOURG,
GERMANY,
AUSTRIA,
SWITZERLAND,
SWEDEN,
FINLAND,
DENMARK,
NORWAY,
SPAIN,
IRELAND,
RUSSIA,
THE NETHERLANDS,
THE CZECH REPUBLIC,
CROATIA,
THE UKRAINE,
POLAND,
BULGARIA,
AND HUNGARY

It's the list of countries the current Blizzard contests are running in.

Zenako

12-01-2010, 11:02 PM

So based on that list it appears that Blizzard "hates/has no use" for its customers in countries like China, Greece, Italy, Israel, Egypt, etc....

So why do they discriminate against those countries....

See the whole arguement about including everyone fall short unless it truely includes everyone, and just like Blizzard drew a line in the sand, so to WB/Turbine drew a line in the sand. Keep in mind that the "cost" estimate of this whole sweepstakes is listed as under $1500 - TOTAL. So it is small potatoes in the big picture.

pSINNa

12-01-2010, 11:17 PM

Really?? No acceptable comment i can come up with to that other then, i'll stop feeding the trolls now.

Coit out~

Thank you for the negative rep on this post, it shows the quality of the person responsible, you know who you are :).

mudfud

12-01-2010, 11:23 PM

Thank you for the negative rep on this post, it shows the quality of the person responsible, you know who you are :).

+1 I really hate when that happens also. :p

frznvimes

12-01-2010, 11:32 PM

+1 I really hate when that happens also. :p
ditto
(hmmm, a bit like being a cleric in a forum-based ddo)

ningyi97

12-01-2010, 11:40 PM

Though we can't change anything, here's our response.

As paying customers of this INTERNET games since 2006, this is not a happy experience being excluded from the contest.

Angry Asian paying customers

SteeK

12-01-2010, 11:49 PM

Having been meaning to register for a while, I finally did so I could enter... I mean read "(1) open to legal residents in the United States and the District of Columbia who are 13 years of age or older and have Internet access"

So now I've basically registered to moan, so my voice wont be heard, like the many pages of disgrutled people I too didn't read, which wasn't really the plan.

Woe is me!

QQ

RequiemVampie

12-01-2010, 11:52 PM

/sarcasm on

http://scoople.co.nz/images/gifs/joker-clap.gif

Way to go Turbine/Warner Brothers.
Good job on excluding a HUGE number of players. Well thought out wasn't it?

/sarcasm off

To any and all U.S. players that enter the contest, Good Luck.

Personally, there should have been different methods thought through or researched before doing is. People play this game from all over the world. There has been no further update nor comment from a Turbine staff member since a few pages in from the get go. Which means that they are aware that a nerve has been struck somewhere.

Yes, different countries have different laws regarding these kinds of things and all of this could have been averted if:

1) Some form of research taken place to explore how to include the player base as a whole rather than just have it exclusive to one area.

or

2) Have no contest at all.

What it all boils down to is:
- You can't please everyone.
- There will be a few lucky winners.
- Hopefully in the future, more thought will go into this sort of thing.

I'd say more, but there is no point.

Again, Good Luck to all legible entrants.:cool:

Chatuyscha

12-01-2010, 11:54 PM

Ooh! Ooh! Compare them to Hitler now! I love it when people do that! It's so original, and clearly the comparison is apt! :rolleyes:

I didnt have Hitler in mind at all. What i had in mind was that around that time (1776) somebody paid their taxes but were still not seen as equal citizens. The reaction then was dumping tea into the Boston harbor. We cant do that with TP though it was tempting. But yes the situation could be seen as what happened south of my border many years later than 1776.

donfilibuster

12-02-2010, 12:01 AM

blackdoguk

12-02-2010, 12:03 AM

Nice to hear from you Jerry - wishing you well in your new endeavours.
Just a couple of questions about this generous offer from Turbine/WB.

From the terms and conditions

"Sponsor and its agents" shall mean WBADS, its advertising/promotional and/or fulfillment agencies and their respective parent companies, affiliates, subsidiaries and their respective employees, officers, directors and agents."

"USE OF PERSONAL INFORMATION: In order to participate in this Sweepstakes, participants will be required to supply certain information about themselves on the Sweepstakes entry pages. WBADS has specified which information is mandatory in order to participate in the Sweepstakes"
From my reading of the document in the general context of the competition this appears to be a method by which WB can come by our personal information in return for a potential lifetime subscription/cosmetic change/ infinite mana etc. A few question arises from this:

If WB acquired Turbine I would presume from the existence of the competition that they do not currently "own" or have access to, our user details - do they?
If not they could just have asked - if you ask Jerry you can have it:p

I took the time to read the terms and conditions as I think in these times private user information is a commodity that we disregard at our peril. I love DDO, and the prospect of store goodies is more than enough to wet my appetite, however I would imagine most DDO users would click the rather large green button for free TP without reading the (rather more subtly linked) terms and conditions and fully appreciating the significance/ value of the information they have just signed over to one of the largest companies in the world.

I do not wish to appear negative towards Turbine or you Cordovan, my only vested interest is the community at large, however following in your wake I think it important that we strive for objective criticism without you at the helm of DDOcast

Best Wishes

Bunker

12-02-2010, 12:06 AM

What would you do with 100,000 Turbine Points? Would you buy every item in the DDO Store?

I would buy every trap, trap part, and rogue hireling in game, and take over the Marketplace for good! Long live the Mechanic!

/signed up

-Bunk

Hakushi

12-02-2010, 12:43 AM

I'm here since the beginning (over 4 years and half now) and this is what I get because I do not live in US. To be honest, this is pure BS. I'm idiot enough to pay for 2 subscriptions and when there's a contest, it's only available for US residents. It seems that a subscription from a US resident is more important and better than a subscription from anyone outside US. HELLO, you have subscribers from other places, and guess what, they pay the SAME PRICE for their subscriptions, or guess what, they pay the SAME PRICE when they buy stuff from the DDO store.

If you're gonna have contests, open them for everyone or don't have any. Things like this are just an insult for your loyal customers outside US who feel as they are second class players compared to the others. If the problem is purely legal, you guys should be smart enough to find something.

Wizard_Zero

12-02-2010, 02:05 AM

I would buy guest passes for random people. Play DDO until the very last day when DDO goes off-line forever. And finally, I would probably be part of a real guild instead of me being in one by myself.

Heck, to be honest, I'll even be happy with a 1000 points.

TheDearLeader

12-02-2010, 02:11 AM

Amazing how many people can find reasons to whine about free stuff.

Great way to make sure that Turbine has a bad taste in their mouth about offering contest prizes to anyone anywhere.

Smitey

12-02-2010, 02:20 AM

The restriction of the prize is down to US laws and boils down to the government not wanting to see a significant amount of cash go abroad where it cannot be partially recovered through taxation.

An alternative way that WB could have run this:

2 lifetimes subs as the main prize
20 runner up prizes of 5000 TP
5 third place prizes of 1000 TP

From what I can tell these lesser amounts would not fall foul of the US tax restrictions.

.. for next time a free prize draw is run by the way, I realise it's too late for this marketing excerise that seems more about gleaning email addresses than encouraging new players from any country.

An in-game event would not be able to credit turbine points themselves - items yes so I would suggest a prize whereby the winners all receive equipment/healing/shrine/tomes/xp and loot boosts commensurate to the value of 20,000 TP
This would be attractive both to a new player, and also to a new character rolled up by an existing player.

I feel sorry for Cordovan that the response has been the way it has - this is a Warner Brothers sweepstake, but that doesn't stop Turbine from running their own competitions that are inclusive of all.

Razcar

12-02-2010, 03:34 AM

Honestly after several threads like this I wish they had quietly let codemasters delete their characters.
Wow, that was about the most stupid, insensitive, rampantly selfish and cruel thing I have seen on these boards ever - regardless of the details of this competition. So you wish that all our characters had been deleted because a couple of us write things on these forums that you disagree with. Congratulations on being a tiny, tiny person. Oh, and a big fat -1, wish I could give you -100,000.

SirTeo

12-02-2010, 03:35 AM

I'm too lazy to read thorugh eveything. But seems like europeans can't enter the contest, ye? Well I'm from Sweden and had no problem at all to enter. Just saying.

holfrar

12-02-2010, 03:39 AM

Amazing how many people can find reasons to whine about free stuff.

Great way to make sure that Turbine has a bad taste in their mouth about offering contest prizes to Only Americans.

Fixed that for you

frznvimes

12-02-2010, 03:39 AM

I'm too lazy to read thorugh eveything. But seems like europeans can't enter the contest, ye? Well I'm from Sweden and had no problem at all to enter. Just saying.
if you win, you can't claim the prize.

Razcar

12-02-2010, 03:44 AM

I'm going to make these my last statements and it's something I have repeated to my children over and over again.

"Nobody is entitled to everything".

"Life isn't fair".

"All rules do not apply to everyone".

These are simple and basic facts of life.

Seem to me that you should add a point when you are educating your children:

"If someone tries to walk over you, just lie down and let them. See these muddy boot-prints daddy has all over his back? You can have those too!"

Dulcimerist

12-02-2010, 03:52 AM

if you win, you can't claim the prize.

What would happen if all of the winners were ineligible to claim their prizes?

frznvimes

12-02-2010, 03:55 AM

What would happen if all of the winners were ineligible to claim their prizes?
I'm not certain, but I expect that any unclaimed/ineligible prizes would just be redrawn.

SirTeo

12-02-2010, 04:06 AM

if you win, you can't claim the prize.

lol, that sounds fair. gl us

lekkus

12-02-2010, 04:10 AM

No panic! I bet we can buy an entry into the sweepstakes from the store soon™ !

Chatuyscha

12-02-2010, 04:39 AM

WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE STILL COMPLAINING? It wont make a bit of difference. Turbine CANT and there for WONT do anything about it and all your gonna do is screw those of us that live in the U.S. (and there for ARE eligible) out of future contests, you cant have one so none of us can? Its not America's fault your country sucks so move or quit your *****ing.

/done

First to the quote above. If your countrymen had followed your advice back then around 1776, we wouldnt have had this discussion today, and your country would probably still be under the british throne today.

Back to main topic for this post. Currently 18 pages on this topic, sadly with a lot of mud being thrown at each others. (and im aware that my comment above can be seen as mud, though its not intended to be) For me this is not a discussion on any legal possibilities or not for making this a limited or global contest. Nor is it a discussion on who has the most sucking country, thats just more mud being thrown.

For me its a question on what is a acceptable attitude against the playerbase. Should we include or is it ok to exclude segments of the playerbase. I find exclusion to be a bad thing. It creates a community where its acceptable to have a us (not U.S.) and them attitude. Nothing good comes from that, i´ve seen it happen here in my country over the last 10 years. And it have been seen through history with some horrible consequenses.

Im not complaining because i want to screw it for those that are included. Im complaining because this whole inclusion/exclusion thing was launched.

Lets imagine that this contest was a LFM post for a shroudrun, with a text excluding certain groups of players. I bet that would bring a storm of reporting for breaking the rules.

Therilith

12-02-2010, 04:52 AM

ubidat

12-02-2010, 04:54 AM

Don't forget about Asia and South America.
There is total about 9.000.000.000 people in the world, 310.000.000 lives in US. Of course, Africans and people from poor countries don't play this game, but still I won't bellive that there is more players in US than in the rest of world.

Haha... Sorry but that made me laugh...
Africa isn't "one" country, I think you should polish up on your geography there, dude.
I'm from South Africa, and I play DDO, so yeah.
"People from Africa" Do play this game :P

-ubi

Lorien_the_First_One

12-02-2010, 04:56 AM

Lorien_the_First_One

12-02-2010, 04:59 AM

Because Coke and McDonalds are HUUUUUUUGE (and they make people HUUUUUUUGE)! They're also in a different industry, and you're talking about different kinds of contests. They're not really a good comparison.

The poster I was quoting made that comparision, I was showing them the error of their comparision.

Razcar

12-02-2010, 05:04 AM

The claim that this is an issue of international law is utterly ridiculous.

Turbine points have no monetary value!

If I sell someone an ordinary rock for $2, that won't magically make all other rocks on the planet worth something.

As long as no actual money is changing hands, the transfer of TP from the aether to our accounts is no more taxable or restricted than the transfer of in-game gold from chests to our greedy paws.

Observe:
You can buy Therilith Points from me. 50TP for $5.
Whoever posted above me just won a contest I just invented and will be credited 500TP in a database on my computer.

Who's that at the door? Is it a TAX NINJA?
Nope.
Could you please stop making sense? Some random backwater pig farmers with imaginary PhDs in international tax law have previously said here that this is all other countries' fault, not Turbines. And that all other countries suck because Turbine likes to arrange excluding contests for its customers, instead of seeking inclusive alternatives. So there.

I'll take 100 Therilith Points by the way. Do you accept Razcar Points as payment? :)

Kamenecki

12-02-2010, 05:07 AM

SiliconShadow

12-02-2010, 05:13 AM

I entered regardless :D *moves to America* honest guvna!

Nospheratus

12-02-2010, 05:21 AM

I just have one thing to say, and that is:

Good way to have a "Global service" Turdine!

Zero_Tolerance

12-02-2010, 05:50 AM

Way to go. Those terms look a bit like a copy-pasta to me. I'm euro player but I never played on Codemasters' servers. Excluding euros does not seem to have any good reason, it's only 'cos someone was too lazy to look into it. Prizes have no monetary value, since you can't sell them. And they could've been sorted out in a different manner, like in-game lottery or whatever else, 100k TP token to turn in to NPC etc.

A pity that no official input is seen here on this matter, but there are few official posts about website problems...

ninjaeli

12-02-2010, 06:09 AM

What will I do with my 100,000 points WHEN I win?

Easy answer: Purchase 5200 mana pots and solo Shroud on elite with my bard using only Greater Shout.

good luck seperating the 4 named bosses.
;)

PopeJual

12-02-2010, 06:23 AM

Seem to me that you should add a point when you are educating your children:

"If someone tries to walk over you, just lie down and let them. See these muddy boot-prints daddy has all over his back? You can have those too!"

"And if someone gives something free to someone that isn't you, that's exactly equivalent to someone trying to walk all over you."

frznvimes

12-02-2010, 07:06 AM

If anyone ever had any doubts about Sayre's law...

Anzanel

12-02-2010, 07:16 AM

US only? Wow, what a crock of shyt.

donfilibuster

12-02-2010, 07:38 AM

Shares of TWX are about $30 today, those who buy points frecuently might want to consider it.

Razcar

12-02-2010, 07:38 AM

"And if someone gives something free to someone that isn't you, that's exactly equivalent to someone trying to walk all over you."
Fine, but then non-US players could get, say, a 10% discount on VIP subs and TP, seeing that we are excluded from competitions - which are arranged by staff paid by us as well. A lesser product should entail a lesser price.

Edit: Or they could arrange competitions that all their customers can compete in. With in-game rewards only, instead of life-time subs.

PopeJual

12-02-2010, 07:48 AM

In those cases its because they run alternate promotions and contests in different countries.

The McD's monopoly in the US may not be open to Canadians, but the is a Canadian version of the game that runs as well. Coke US runs an NFL promotion, meanwhile Coke Canada runs an NHL one. They basically don't want to step on each other as related, but often seperately incorporated and seperately owned compaines. And all of their customers in all countries get opportunties so no one is really disadvantaged or snubbed.

See how that's different than Turbine, the only provider, is only serving part of their customer base?

The above territorial thing may even be the reason for the standard WB boiler plate. WB US sells the rights movie/tv rights to their product in other countries and can't compete against whoever is marketting WB products in those other countries. Promotional contests for that WB content thus must be limited to where they maintain the rights. This may have accidentally carried over to Turbine in the takeover due to laziness or negligance or just lack of thinking about it.

Rumbarr did say
The exact same amount that can access the current myDDO lottery system. and I'll point out that not even McDonalds has giveaways in every country that can access the current myDDO lottery system.

I'd expect that an overwhelming majority of North Korea cannot access the current myDDO lottery system, but I really can't think of any other country's citizens that can't get their hands on DDO if they want it (although internet access and a computer that can run DDO might be more expensive than most of the citizens of some countries can afford).

NO company currently holds contests/lotteries/giveaways for all of the countries that can access the current myDDO lottery system. It would have been nice if Turbine could have offered this to more countries, but (unlike McDonalds, et al) they don't have a physical presence in any country aside from the US and they are not familiar with the laws of any country aside from the United States.

If you were running a company, would you offer something like this in countries outside your own without knowing what legal liabilities you could be exposing yourself to?

Tarnoc

12-02-2010, 07:51 AM

What would you do with 100,000 Turbine Points? Would you buy every item in the DDO Store? Purchase matching armor for your entire Guild? Upgrade to the biggest Airship in the game? Change your hair color to match every dungeon? The possibilities are endless. You could be the richest player in Eberron! Simply enter today for a chance to win 100,000 Turbine Points!

What Can I win?

One 1st place winner for each game gets 100,000 Turbine Points
Two 2nd place winners get lifetime subscriptions to either game
Five 3rd place winners get 1000 Turbine Points

Do I have to purchase anything to enter?

No, the contest is free to enter, no purchase necessary.

Ok great, how do I enter?

To enter, go to www.ddo.com (http://www.ddo.com/) between Dec 1 to Dec 31 2010 and register for a free account to become entered in contest.

But I already play DDO, can I still enter?

Absolutely! If you already have a DDO account prior to Dec 1, entrants need to go to my.ddo.com/contest (http://my.ddo.com/contest) Dec 1 to Dec 31 2010 to become entered in contest

If I enter to win for DDO, do I need to enter separately for LOTRO?

Yes. Each game will have individual drawings. You may enter to win for each game, but you must sign up separately.

More information, including the full rules, can be found by clicking here (http://www.ddo.com/news/1259-what-would-you-do-with-100000-turbine-points)!

NOTHING.....excluding canada will result in your hydro and water being CUTOFF

PopeJual

12-02-2010, 07:52 AM

Fine, but then non-US players could get, say, a 10% discount on VIP subs and TP, seeing that we are excluded from competitions - which are arranged by staff paid by us as well. A lesser product should entail a lesser price.

$1000 divided up between umpteen thousand US residents is not in any way equivalent to a 10% discount on VIP subs and TP. If you want an equivalent reduction in price for your "lesser product" you would have to reduce the price of non-US residents (and residents of Puerto Rico, the US Virgin Islands, all overseas military bases, territories and posessions, etc) by less than $0.01.

If you really want that discount, send me a PM with your mailing address and I'll send you the penny myself.

Edit: Also, you Euros and Aussies and all the rest CAN participate in this contest if you want to. This is not for US Citizens only. You just have to move to the US for the month of January if you do happen to win. Go ahead and enter the contest. That way, when you don't win the prize, you can feel good about knowing that you got the same exact prize that I'm going to get even though I live in the US.

donfilibuster

12-02-2010, 08:01 AM

But the problem isn't in having a targeted campaign or about the laws, it's about the promotion showing up prominently in the frontpage, the announcements and the mail as if it's an official event for ddo players only while a part of the playerbase won't be able to participate.
Upon reading it it becomes apparent it is aimed to getting new players, which is right by itself, but by then the dissapointing is done.

p.s. and no, even if you have an u.s. address to provide you are still not elegible because WB will require you of some other infos to prove you are a resident, etc. it says so on the smaller small fine print.

testing1234

12-02-2010, 08:05 AM

if turbine had a reputation you could disapprove of how much neg/pos do you think think this contest would give?

Razcar

12-02-2010, 08:09 AM

$1000 divided up between umpteen thousand US residents is not in any way equivalent to a 10% discount on VIP subs and TP. If you want an equivalent reduction in price for your "lesser product" you would have to reduce the price of non-US residents (and residents of Puerto Rico, the US Virgin Islands, all overseas military bases, territories and posessions, etc) by less than $0.01.
You cannot apply a monetary division like that in this case, since the non-US players are loosing the chance at one of the eight nice prices - and some fun - not loosing 1 penny each. There is a difference.

A crushing majority of all the US participants won't get zilch either (except some spam emails from Turbine I suppose), but they can participate, hope and have a little fun with this event. We cannot, through no fault of our own. So we are buying a lesser product for the full price.

You also have to consider future events like this. And if Turbine doesn't change their policy we might get excluded from them as well. So here we are telling Turbine to please change their policy and let all their customers participate.

If you really want that discount, send me a PM with your mailing address and I'll send you the penny myself.

Edit: Also, you Euros and Aussies and all the rest CAN participate in this contest if you want to. This is not for US Citizens only. You just have to move to the US for the month of January if you do happen to win. Go ahead and enter the contest. That way, when you don't win the prize, you can feel good about knowing that you got the same exact prize that I'm going to get even though I live in the US.
Sure, but then I think you'll have to send me a Green Card instead ;)

PopeJual

12-02-2010, 08:17 AM

A crushing majority of all the US participants won't get zilch either (except some spam emails from Turbine I suppose), but they can participate, hope and have a little fun with this event. We cannot, through no fault of our own. So we are buying a lesser product for the full price.

Since F2P players can enter this contest, no one is *paying* anything for the contest, though. No player is paying for the contest in any way since that actually would be illegal in most US states.

Should we give some % of the subscripion money back to all the F2P players who live outside the US?

ilhares

12-02-2010, 08:17 AM

They don't *have* to do these giveaways. You, the end user/player, are not 'losing out' on anything if you live outside the area. What, you can't officially join the lotto to win? FINE. You still haven't lost anything. Turbine does not owe you anything just for being a player of one of their games that you didn't pay for.

I'm speaking in generalities, of course, I'm sure there's a handful of premium players who'd still like their account to survive an update intact. I'm just surprised at the amount of whining over something as simple as a limited-area giveaway.

Just out of curiosity, have any of you non-US people tried to enter anyway? What happens? Unless they (Turbine) plan to send a photographer to your home to take a winner's snapshot pic, I'm willing to bet they don't even care all that much, but the terms keep their collective butts covered in the event anyone tries to raise an international legal stink later.

rabrams99

12-02-2010, 08:28 AM

I still am getting the error page. anyone have a link that works?

quintuss

12-02-2010, 08:33 AM

Razcar

12-02-2010, 08:34 AM

Since F2P players can enter this contest, no one is *paying* anything for the contest, though. No player is paying for the contest in any way since that actually would be illegal in most US states.

Should we give some % of the subscripion money back to all the F2P players who live outside the US?
Of course we are paying for this contest - all us that do pay for DDO. You think Tolero, Jerry et. al. came in on a weekend to arrange this?

As for F2P players, no they are not paying anything... yet. Turbine wants them to, and many have (thus becoming Premium) and many of them will eventually. And if we stretch it slightly, you could say than an eventual F2P player that wins is paying through his participation in Turbine marketing.

Regardless of that, I pay for DDO, and I pay for this competition. And I am not allowed to participate in it. And what's worst is that I know I would win:
(Forums) Forums: Razcar rolls 1 000 000 (1d1000000)

Seriously, it is not that a big deal for me, but I would like Turbine to change their policy and their prizes accordingly next time, so all players can participate.

It would also be cool if they, after this one, could arrange another competition where non-US residents only could compete. I'm sure it would generate nice publicity for the non-US markets. Maybe publish it in French, German, Spanish and English. And chose the prizes so that the IRS wont feel cheated of any US tax dollars.

mudfud

12-02-2010, 09:03 AM

Fixed that for you

Your fix for that post is misleading. You put Americans only, when it's not Americans only. It's US residents. I'm not American but I am a US resident so I'd still be able to enter.

But back on the original topic. I wouldnt really want the 100,000 turbine points. I would however like to be 1 of the 2 2nd place winners for the lifetime sub if it also includes the 500 turbine points each month.

Lorien_the_First_One

12-02-2010, 09:08 AM

NO company currently holds contests/lotteries/giveaways for all of the countries that can access the current myDDO lottery system. It would have been nice if Turbine could have offered this to more countries, but (unlike McDonalds, et al) they don't have a physical presence in any country aside from the US and they are not familiar with the laws of any country aside from the United States.

If you were running a company, would you offer something like this in countries outside your own without knowing what legal liabilities you could be exposing yourself to?

No, I'd research it and allow as many participants as possible in. It has been pointed out for example the Blizzard allows in something like 20 countries into their contest, and 20 countries that I suspect cover the vast majority of customers.

Also as previously pointed out, Turbine previously researched it and found it was fine in Canada (exluding Quebec) and allowed Canadian's to enter. They seem to have forgotten that - no excuse there.

It's lazy lack of research and thought. That's it.

Nospheratus

12-02-2010, 09:11 AM

Guys, I don't get paid to suckle the Turbine teat, but you are really something. They don't *have* to do these giveaways. You, the end user/player, are not 'losing out' on anything if you live outside the area. What, you can't officially join the lotto to win? FINE. You still haven't lost anything. Turbine does not owe you anything just for being a player of one of their games that you didn't pay for.

I'm speaking in generalities, of course, I'm sure there's a handful of premium players who'd still like their account to survive an update intact. I'm just surprised at the amount of whining over something as simple as a limited-area giveaway.

Just out of curiosity, have any of you non-US people tried to enter anyway? What happens? Unless they (Turbine) plan to send a photographer to your home to take a winner's snapshot pic, I'm willing to bet they don't even care all that much, but the terms keep their collective butts covered in the event anyone tries to raise an international legal stink later.

It's not about losing anything. It's about the attitude!!

Turbine claims they have a "global service" and yet they localize a contest like this!?..

Surely Turbine realises that the "global" means "the whole GLOBE" - ie planet earth.

I'll help those that can't understand the concept. See here (http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=global):

involving the entire earth; not limited or provincial in scope

I'm sure someone else pointed all this before, I just didn't read the thread, but wanted to show my dissatisfaction!

Thriand

12-02-2010, 09:25 AM

Fine, but then non-US players could get, say, a 10% discount on VIP subs and TP, seeing that we are excluded from competitions - which are arranged by staff paid by us as well. A lesser product should entail a lesser price.

Wait so you want the non-US players to get an actual better deal than the US players? I'd much rather get a 10% discount that have a very small chance of winning a bigger prize.

Grecan

12-02-2010, 09:26 AM

It's not about losing anything. It's about the attitude!!

Turbine claims they have a "global service" and yet they localize a contest like this!?..

Surely Turbine realises that the "global" means "the whole GLOBE" - ie planet earth.

I'll help those that can't understand the concept. See here (http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=global):

Could it be that they meant ball-shaped?... :D (from the link you provided)

I'm sure someone else pointed all this before, I just didn't read the thread, but wanted to show my dissatisfaction!
I said something similar here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3445885&postcount=186), and guess what... i got a neg rep! :p

mrpipo

12-02-2010, 09:33 AM

Well, i'll just pretend that i could claim the prize and take part.

When the event is over and i'm not the winner, i'll just pretend it's because i just didn't win.

I never win anything be it in the lottery or whaterver - I just wont notice the difference.

See? Was that so hard? :D

+1 to the only post that make sense to me.

I'm not US resident and I seriously doubt I could win even if I could participate.

If I had to ask something to Santa Turbine, it would be a slightly better chance to get a bloodstone (let's say a 0.9% drop rate) for the holiday season.

Some guildies have come up with some nice holidays contests that are open to all guild members from around the world which I find a ton more fun to participate in :)

My advice:
Xmas spirit, seek Xmas spirit

MrPipo

Thriand

12-02-2010, 09:35 AM

No, I'd research it and allow as many participants as possible in. It has been pointed out for example the Blizzard allows in something like 20 countries into their contest, and 20 countries that I suspect cover the vast majority of customers.

This is not true while there have been lots of blizzard contests that involve multiple countries, it still depends on whose sponsering the event, and what the prizes are.

For example this one sponsered by blizzard alone back in march of this year was limited to the US, canada, and new zealand.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/contests/10-01-printwar/contest-rules.html

If blizzard with its vast resources and top notch lawyers still has to struggle with laws for contests, what makes you think it would be so easy for Turbine (or actually in this case WB).

I outline a couple of blizzard contests and how they have to handle them in this post here
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3445953&postcount=41.

Even for WoW contests, its not so simple as "WoW did it so can we"

Smitey

12-02-2010, 09:44 AM

There is a difference between a contest and a free draw and the prize on offer is internal to the game we play...

Razcar

12-02-2010, 09:53 AM

Wait so you want the non-US players to get an actual better deal than the US players? I'd much rather get a 10% discount that have a very small chance of winning a bigger prize.Well, that suggestion was more of a vehicle used to present my point than a realistic request. If Turbine did this the US would suffer a massive brain-drain :eek: :p

PopeJual

12-02-2010, 10:00 AM

Of course we are paying for this contest - all us that do pay for DDO. You think Tolero, Jerry et. al. came in on a weekend to arrange this?

As for F2P players, no they are not paying anything... yet. Turbine wants them to, and many have (thus becoming Premium) and many of them will eventually. And if we stretch it slightly, you could say than an eventual F2P player that wins is paying through his participation in Turbine marketing.

Regardless of that, I pay for DDO, and I pay for this competition. And I am not allowed to participate in it. And what's worst is that I know I would win:
(Forums) Forums: Razcar rolls 1 000 000 (1d1000000)

Seriously, it is not that a big deal for me, but I would like Turbine to change their policy and their prizes accordingly next time, so all players can participate.

It would also be cool if they, after this one, could arrange another competition where non-US residents only could compete. I'm sure it would generate nice publicity for the non-US markets. Maybe publish it in French, German, Spanish and English. And chose the prizes so that the IRS wont feel cheated of any US tax dollars.

/reported for being reasonable and having workable solutions instead of sticking with puffed up accusations and xenophobia.

Your kind of post in not acceptable in this thread!

...actually, I think that having an "everyone else" contest in the near future would be a nice solution to all of the rage that we're seeing from a few people in this thread.

Ratso33

12-02-2010, 10:21 AM

Razcar

12-02-2010, 10:29 AM

I am from the UK and i'm not that bothered that i don't have a one in gods know how may chance of winning this
but what this about weekly lotteries ?? I am new to the game ( online version anyway have been playing d&d since 1979 ) and didn't know about this have searched myDDO and no matches for lottery or lotteries
Can someone point me in the right directionThere are lotteries in MyDDO. Just go to your page and you'll see it there on your left ("Enter here to win"). Then again, I've never won anything in the MyDDO lottery... and I'm Swedish... hey, wait a minute! ;)

Ratso33

12-02-2010, 10:31 AM

There are lotteries in MyDDO. Just go to your page and you'll see it there on your left ("Enter here to win"). Then again, I've never won anything in the MyDDO lottery... and I'm Swedish... hey, wait a minute! ;)

Thanks will take a look

Stitch78

12-02-2010, 10:42 AM

20 Pages of posts. ~10 pages of angry complaints, 10 pages of explanations (with various levels of anger) aimed at the complaints.

A total of ONE prior genuine thanks to Turbine in those 20 pages. I +'d that guy, and add my own thanks. Sorry this has blown up so much but I appreciate the concept and the effort. Maybe the execution could have been better, but live and learn.

Personally, I hope this doesn't mean the end of all contests/lotteries.

Kale_Gresh

12-02-2010, 11:01 AM

Just wanted to say that I have no opinion on whether Turbine (or actually WB) should or should not have had this contest-it certainly is creating a stir so I would guess the negative publicity might very well hurt them more than the marketing folks hoped to gain with new US subscribers. But I will repeat that to expect this sweepstakes to be available in all countries is unrealistic from a cost/benefit perspective.

The claim that this is an issue of international law is utterly ridiculous.

Turbine points have no monetary value!

If I sell someone an ordinary rock for $2, that won't magically make all other rocks on the planet worth something.

As long as no actual money is changing hands, the transfer of TP from the aether to our accounts is no more taxable or restricted than the transfer of in-game gold from chests to our greedy paws.

Observe:
You can buy Therilith Points from me. 50TP for $5.
Whoever posted above me just won a contest I just invented and will be credited 500TP in a database on my computer.

Who's that at the door? Is it a TAX NINJA?
Nope.

First-the determiner of whether something has a monetary value for tax purposes in the US is the IRS-not WB, despite what they say. They explicitly recognize this by disclosing in the contest disclaimers the fair value of $1,000. They also mention the issuing of a 1099 to the winner. This would force the winner to include that $1,000 as income on their tax form and pay all federal, state, and local taxes due. If you did not that would be tax evasion. Another reason for them to do it this way (with a real value attached) is that they can then claim the giveaway amount as an expense and pay taxes on $1,000 less in revenue (plus getting to deduct all the other expenses associated with the contest).

Second-the reason that this is considered to have real world value is that it one step from actual currency. You can buy TP with actual cash-just like you can buy say a car. You cannot however buy a bracelet of friends for cash-that is a 2 step process, 2 steps from a real world currency. That is the distinction line as it is currently drawn. I will point out that the IRS has not said that that line is ok, but they have not said otherwise either. There have been several cases that the IRS has won on 'virtual' property having a real world value.

Third, if you sell a rock to another person for $2, then you very well may have a taxable event depending on your countries laws. In the county, state, country I sit in I would actually owe sales tax to my county on selling that rock. I very well could have to claim that $2 as revenue and pay income taxes on it, less any legitamate expenses incurred in the sale of that rock, unless their is a de minimis exclusion where I live. Now in practice there would be no consequences-noone is going to know and no tax authorities would care for something this small. They however very much care as transactions grow in size. WB has audited financial statements and is scrutinized both internally and by external auditors. They have great incentive to get this right.

Fourth- Your sale of Therilith points is a taxable event :)

And finally, while the legal ramifications have been discussed there has been only limited discussion of the tax issues involved cross country. Does WB really want to have to file a VAT tax form in a country that it does no regular business in? The lawyers/accountants could be quite expensive for such a small amount. Tax treaties will mostly exempt their regular business revenue (subs, direct sales of TP) from having to file tax forms in many/most countries where they have customers, but noone to my knowledge in this thread has had the expertise to answer the tax implications of a sweepstakes.

I am in the US so can register. I also would be disappointed if i was not eligible. I am all for pushing WB to handle it differently next time. But I believe the 'expectation' that it should have been done differently - by including all current customers - is unrealistic.

Lairde

Nospheratus

12-02-2010, 11:03 AM

Could it be that they meant ball-shaped?... :D (from the link you provided)
ahahah! Maybe!!! :D

I said something similar here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3445885&postcount=186), and guess what... i got a neg rep! :p
Yeah, me too... But I don't really care. Some people never learned letters and words in school and they use "the button" to disagree.

Lorien_the_First_One

12-02-2010, 11:08 AM

First-the determiner of whether something has a monetary value for tax purposes in the US is the IRS-not WB, despite what they say. They explicitly recognize this by disclosing in the contest disclaimers the fair value of $1,000. They also mention the issuing of a 1099 to the winner. This would force the winner to include that $1,000 as income on their tax form and pay all federal, state, and local taxes due. If you did not that would be tax evasion. Another reason for them to do it this way (with a real value attached) is that they can then claim the giveaway amount as an expense and pay taxes on $1,000 less in revenue (plus getting to deduct all the other expenses associated with the contest).

Second-the reason that this is considered to have real world value is that it one step from actual currency. You can buy TP with actual cash-just like you can buy say a car. You cannot however buy a bracelet of friends for cash-that is a 2 step process, 2 steps from a real world currency. That is the distinction line as it is currently drawn. I will point out that the IRS has not said that that line is ok, but they have not said otherwise either. There have been several cases that the IRS has won on 'virtual' property having a real world value.

The IRS lost the case, as I understand it, making airline miles taxable because while they can be bought for cash, or earned for buying/using company products, they can't be sold. That's a pretty good parallel to TP.

Grimgore

12-02-2010, 11:11 AM

what Will I Do With My 100,000 Points When I Win?

Easy Answer: Purchase 5200 Mana Pots And Solo Shroud On Elite With My Bard Using Only Greater Shout.

Lmao +1

Neehla

12-02-2010, 11:13 AM

Therilith

12-02-2010, 11:20 AM

You can buy TP with actual cash-just like you can buy say a car. You cannot however buy a bracelet of friends for cash-that is a 2 step process, 2 steps from a real world currency.
See my earlier post:

"Then have the contest give someone a "Rock of 100.000 TP" in-game item that can be redeemed for 100.000 TP."

There you go. 2 step process.

Third, if you sell a rock to another person for $2, then you very well may have a taxable event depending on your countries laws.
Not my point.
My point is that just because someone, somewhere is willing to pay $500 for a rock (turbine points) that doesn't mean that all other rocks (turbine points) are suddenly considered to be worth $500 for taxation purposes.

Fourth- Your sale of Therilith points is a taxable event
Yes, but my free Therilith Point™ giveaway is not because Therilith Points™ have absolutely no monetary value.

How about a different analogy:
If someone pays you $5 to smile at them (bear with me here), that doesn't make every free smile you give away to random people on the street a taxable transaction.

And finally, while the legal ramifications have been discussed there has been only limited discussion of the tax issues involved cross country.
What tax issues?
There is nothing to tax.

rayflo

12-02-2010, 11:22 AM

So the Second Place winners get a lifetime subscription to DDO worth $200. Where can I buy that?

/signed

i cant get in bad links everywhere

Martdon

12-02-2010, 12:01 PM

I lived most of my life in the states. So do I count =D

I entered before reading the rage, and my thought was, oh well, I wasn't going to win anyways.

If I do get my name drawn, I wonder if they'll not hand out the TP or give it the first, second place winner.

Hmmm makes me wonder.

I can answer a skill testing question to make it legit in Canada, if that would help you!

GreenDragonStalker

12-02-2010, 02:45 PM

due to laws and regulations my cleric will be unable to heal anyone in the USA as i would not want to getting in trouble for the practice of healing with out the proper concents permits or religious endorsements... and im just to lazy to go through the effort of looking up any and all possible laws i might run afoul of in the USA

so if you happen to die in game and are from the USA please be understanding if your cleric is from out of the country and is just protecting them self from any possible legal ramifications of providing said healing all be it real or virtual due to not being able to full research all the possible laws codes and faith requirements to preform said healing in a manor that insures the protection of said healer from a violation of these said possible rules laws or regs all be it real or virtual

yours truly

cleric that just following turbines example

PopeJual

12-02-2010, 02:52 PM

yep 20 pages and not a word from turbine what so ever dont i feel like a valued customer

There's an easy solution to that. If you increase your posts-per-page to 50, then there would only be 8 pages without a followup post from Turbine.

Problem solved!

Shanadeus

12-02-2010, 02:56 PM

Jaren99

12-02-2010, 03:11 PM

What would you do with 100,000 Turbine Points? Would you buy every item in the DDO Store? Purchase matching armor for your entire Guild? Upgrade to the biggest Airship in the game? Change your hair color to match every dungeon? The possibilities are endless. You could be the richest player in Eberron! Simply enter today for a chance to win 100,000 Turbine Points!

What Can I win?

One 1st place winner for each game gets 100,000 Turbine Points
Two 2nd place winners get lifetime subscriptions to either game
Five 3rd place winners get 1000 Turbine Points

Do I have to purchase anything to enter?

No, the contest is free to enter, no purchase necessary.

Ok great, how do I enter?

To enter, go to www.ddo.com (http://www.ddo.com/) between Dec 1 to Dec 31 2010 and register for a free account to become entered in contest.

But I already play DDO, can I still enter?

Absolutely! If you already have a DDO account prior to Dec 1, entrants need to go to my.ddo.com/contest (http://my.ddo.com/contest) Dec 1 to Dec 31 2010 to become entered in contest

If I enter to win for DDO, do I need to enter separately for LOTRO?

Yes. Each game will have individual drawings. You may enter to win for each game, but you must sign up separately.

More information, including the full rules, can be found by clicking here (http://www.ddo.com/news/1259-what-would-you-do-with-100000-turbine-points)!

Even with this new link you gave mine wont work for some reason i just get sent to a Non-DDO-related site, i get sent to a redirector and while it loads it says that ddo.com is currently unavailable etc.... can you help?? p.s. i am an american resident i live in east coast USA so idk why im having these darn problems.....

GreenDragonStalker

12-02-2010, 03:14 PM

So... if you can earn turbine points in-game then you should be taxed on them as they have monetary value due to them being purchasable?

Or am I misunderstanding the arguments thrown around here?

Also, weren't the halloween contests open for non-US players as well?

the tax argument doesn't work and here is why

1000 dollars in a year even if it was counted as an income and it cant cause there is no way to sell them to someone else once you have them for cash is still well below any minimum tax level so you would still be exempt from any for of taxes if you were a none US person living outside the USA

what i do find funny is not only have they screwed over everyone not a US resident they have screwed over US citizens living outside the USA as well even though if we make over a certain level of income we are still libal for taxes still have to file a tax form every year and are still able to die in the service of our country wile being deployed overseas wile serving in the US military... yet we cant win a contest because we just so happen to not be in the USA or its territories

You starting to get the kick in the teeth yet?

Turbine didnt just kick a bunch of none US citizens who support them with there hard earned cash they kicked EVERYONE outside these designated areas in the teeth.. including those serving the USA wile in other countries

Land of the free home of the brave and screw over everyone you cant be bothered to consider when you do something under the guise of giving back to your loyal customers

Dulcimerist

12-02-2010, 03:17 PM

This contest falls under sweepstakes laws, rather than tax laws:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweepstakes

PopeJual

12-02-2010, 03:47 PM

You starting to get the kick in the teeth yet?

Somehow I don't think someone understands what a kick in the teeth actually is.

It's not as if they're taking something away from you. They're just not giving you something for free.

Something that you weren't going to win anyway, I should add.

MalkavianX

12-02-2010, 03:53 PM

I'm sure it's been said dozens of times already in this post, but I think it warrants being said again. It's a big, steaming pile of horse droppings that people from Canada can't enter the contenst. I understand that in Canada they can't give anything away for "free", that there must be a sort of skill testing question. Would it have been that hard for them to add a drop down menu saying "What country are you from?" Then when you select Canada, another line of text appears stating that you must solve a skill testing question in order to claim the prize. Make it something that even a monkey could answer, something like "What's 3+3 divided by 2?" It can be that simple, I've claimed many a prize from chips, pop, random draws, etc that have had skill testing questions simpler than that. Hell, most times when you go to claim the prize (note, you don't have to answer the skill testing question until you claim the prize) the guy will even tell you the answer. I pay good money to play this game on a monthly basis, I'm beginning to ask myself "Why?"

GreenDragonStalker

12-02-2010, 04:03 PM

This contest falls under sweepstakes laws, rather than tax laws:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweepstakes

that doesnt work either cause they left out US military bases over seas and it would have been easy enough to have included some simple skill based questions based or where you live for none us citizens with a minimum of research and lawyers WB already has in many other counties..

Again it only goes to show a **** poor job by a US based company that claims to be a global provider to take any considerations for ALL the people that help keep the game alive including those who are US citizens who happen to be outside the USA for what ever reason

And it makes those of us that are from the USA look bad yet again because of the poor practices of the companies that represent to USA at home and abroad

Its laziness on there part and many other "global" companies based in the USA and supported by customers form all over the world that leaves a bad taste in peoples mouth when they think of the USA and TB/WB just helped to enforces that stereo typical mentality the USA has become known for world wide...

thanks really cause its just more stereo typical BS i have to put up with being a USA National living abroad from other people that see USA companies being a representation of the general mentality of all Americans

GreenDragonStalker

12-02-2010, 04:17 PM

Somehow I don't think someone understands what a kick in the teeth actually is.

It's not as if they're taking something away from you. They're just not giving you something for free.

Something that you weren't going to win anyway, I should add.

no its that they didnt even give me or anyone else outside a very limited area even a chance to feel that we could win and in turn really could not give a second thought to us even though in most cases it costs us more to buy turbine points and vip due to exchange rates and international trans fees to be part of the player base that helps to keep turbine alive

its that as of yet there hasnt even been an apology by TB or WB for the obvious over site on there part to have inadvertently make a large segment of there player base feel unappreciated..

Its that by TB/WB have taken a sick our heads in the sand and pretend we dont see it and it will blow over stance to this.... Not a dam word has been said by TB/WB even acknowledging that they has seen the complaints are are at the very lest pretending to deal with it...

so you tell me when turbine screws you over on some other issue and then does the exact same thing on your issue how well treated you going to feel cause right now there are allot of people who feel very under respected for there time energy and money they have given turbine and one day it might be your turn

sativathered6977

12-02-2010, 04:23 PM

so what are we supposed to do when we can't enter because the page cannot be found?

Missing_Minds

12-02-2010, 04:27 PM

so you tell me when turbine screws you over on some other issue and then does the exact same thing on your issue how well treated you going to feel cause right now there are allot of people who feel very under respected for there time energy and money they have given turbine and one day it might be your turn

Been there, survived that. For my one night ban, I got 100 tp and a generic apology email. The tp conversion was probably about the same cost as the cups of coffee I had that morning.

GreenDragonStalker

12-02-2010, 04:30 PM

so what are we supposed to do when we can't enter because the page cannot be found?

my gues would be file a bug report and hope they fix it

GreenDragonStalker

12-02-2010, 04:34 PM

Been there, survived that. For my one night ban, I got 100 tp and a generic apology email. The tp conversion was probably about the same cost as the cups of coffee I had that morning.

+1 rep just for the tag line freaking great..

yeah im expecting a ban any time now love the neg rep to.. never had so much neg rep in my life lol

Grecan

12-02-2010, 04:35 PM

<snip> you weren't going to win anyway, I should add.
Oh, rly? Do you mean this contest is set-up? Since you know who will win and who won't... Or can you tell the future? :rolleyes:

Rumbaar

12-02-2010, 04:41 PM

Just out of curiosity, have any of you non-US people tried to enter anyway? What happens? Unless they (Turbine) plan to send a photographer to your home to take a winner's snapshot pic, I'm willing to bet they don't even care all that much, but the terms keep their collective butts covered in the event anyone tries to raise an international legal stink later.You weaken your case when you don't even read the rules for the 'lottery'. You have to have a US postal address and sign legal documents posted to that address that you are in fact at the address and a US citizen. Seems they care a lot.

As for the 400+ posts, I find it once again with even an increase in the 'community' 'specialist' team no-one from marketing or PR care to post in this thread.

But like the Maban event, they've learnt to let the community talk itself out of caring. Then just move onto the next PR failure.

EDIT: I see my first post in this thread was deleted. I guess I hit a nerve with the incompetent Turbine team.

Cordovan

12-02-2010, 04:42 PM

Even with this new link you gave mine wont work for some reason i just get sent to a Non-DDO-related site, i get sent to a redirector and while it loads it says that ddo.com is currently unavailable etc.... can you help??

The link is correct, make sure you are logged into my.ddo.com or you will get an error message. The link should take you to a my.ddo.com page.

PopeJual

12-02-2010, 04:44 PM

Oh, rly? Do you mean this contest is set-up? Since you know who will win and who won't... Or can you tell the future? :rolleyes:

I don't believe that this is a set-up, but I can predict the future with amazingly accurate results.

For instance, I predict that my wife will not win the powerball lottery jackpot when she buys her weekly ticket. I have only a 1 in 195 million chance of being wrong on that prediction.

Let's put my prognostication to the test. You enter the DDO 100,000 TP sweepstakes and if you are the chosen potential winner of the 100,000 TP prize or either of the lifetime subscriptions, I will make a website that is entirely dedicated to apologizing to you and I will pay to maintain that website for no less than 5 years.

Ganak

12-02-2010, 04:48 PM

The link is correct, make sure you are logged into my.ddo.com or you will get an error message. The link should take you to a my.ddo.com page.

I still get a page cannot be displayed. I can get to myddo (with the usual long loading time) and I am logged into myddo. I've made many attempts yesterday and today.

Root cause? MyDDO stinks IMO. It's always been slow and is just a clumsy site in many ways.

Anyways I'll keep trying. Thanks!

mudfud

12-02-2010, 04:53 PM

For the Canadians here and the skill testing thing. Do you have to actually get the skill question right to claim your prize?
I can ask guildies tonight but didn't feel like waiting to know this.

Grecan

12-02-2010, 04:56 PM

I don't believe that this is a set-up, but I can predict the future with amazingly accurate results.

For instance, I predict that my wife will not win the powerball lottery jackpot when she buys her weekly ticket. I have only a 1 in 195 million chance of being wrong on that prediction.

Let's put my prognostication to the test. You enter the DDO 100,000 TP sweepstakes and if you are the chosen potential winner of the 100,000 TP prize or either of the lifetime subscriptions, I will make a website that is entirely dedicated to apologizing to you and I will pay to maintain that website for no less than 5 years.

Ha ha :D

I have a better test for your skills... Why don't you predict the 1st winner of this contest? ;)

If you win, i'll ...i'll do nothing! You said you can can predict the future with amazingly accurate results, so go on :)

PopeJual

12-02-2010, 04:57 PM

Cordovan

12-02-2010, 04:57 PM

I still get a page cannot be displayed. I can get to myddo (with the usual long loading time) and I am logged into myddo. I've made many attempts yesterday and today.

Root cause? MyDDO stinks IMO. It's always been slow and is just a clumsy site in many ways.

Anyways I'll keep trying. Thanks!

Another thing to try is to refresh the my.ddo.com contest web page.

PopeJual

12-02-2010, 04:58 PM

Ha ha :D

I have a better test for your skills... Why don't you predict the 1st winner of this contest? ;)

If you win, i'll ...i'll do nothing! You said you can can predict the future with amazingly accurate results, so go on :)

I said that I can provde amazingly accurate predictions. You may note that I did not claim to provide amazingly *useful* predictions.

Stitch78

12-02-2010, 04:59 PM

It seems to me that a group that considers themselves international shouldn't run a major campaign that benefits a small part of it. Yes, I'm in Canada and I'm wondering how much more effort it would have taken to try to accomodate some of the other countries. If you can't do it right, don't do it at all.

I wonder... if the contest was open to everyone EXCEPT residents of the U.S., would you feel that way? Would there be so many pages to this post?

Grecan

12-02-2010, 05:00 PM

I said that I can provde amazingly accurate predictions. You may note that I did not claim to provide amazingly *useful* predictions.

Yeah, yeah, whatever... :D

frznvimes

12-02-2010, 05:07 PM

I said that I can provde amazingly accurate predictions. You may note that I did not claim to provide amazingly *useful* predictions.
"I don't know where, I don't know when, but something awful's gonna happen! And definitely don't marry that fat man, he only wants you for your money, girl!"

Dozen_Black_Roses

12-02-2010, 05:43 PM

I still get a page cannot be displayed. I can get to myddo (with the usual long loading time) and I am logged into myddo. I've made many attempts yesterday and today.

Root cause? MyDDO stinks IMO. It's always been slow and is just a clumsy site in many ways.

Anyways I'll keep trying. Thanks!
Try logging out of ddo.com then logging back in, that should fix it. (Not just closing the page, actually log out and then re enter your log in name and password).

Sretsam

12-02-2010, 05:51 PM

Still looking for an answer for a household with multiple players that each have their own account

Tarnoc

12-02-2010, 06:00 PM

i wonder if turbine has been taking everyones money illegally....

have you paid the canadian government its taxes for supplyign a service to me that takes my canadian money to pay for?

Dark_Helmet

12-02-2010, 07:42 PM

Yes it is very depressing. Virgin Rail has to be the worse way to travel, got on a train and pretty much stood up all the way to London.

Better to me standing on a fast train than walking on the rail. ;)

Missing_Minds

12-02-2010, 08:02 PM

I wonder... if the contest was open to everyone EXCEPT residents of the U.S., would you feel that way? Would there be so many pages to this post?

While I can't speak for that person I will speak for myself.

My response. "oh poo." and continue on with my life as if I did try and lost. The typical outcome of these events for most all people.

mudfud

12-02-2010, 08:07 PM

The question is usually one that is SNL-style Celebrity Jeopardy easy, but I'm sure some people can get even those wrong too. :)

But if they get it wrong do they still get there prize? Or ...?

BlackCloud

12-02-2010, 08:47 PM

I have also tried several times to sign up for the contest. Page not found every time.

DragonLander

12-02-2010, 08:56 PM

if i win? get a nice airship for my small guild and save the rest for whenever druid shapechangers or just a full Dragon race comes out, sure it will be a lifetime away but being a dragon and flying around the sky, that would be awesome

Lorien_the_First_One

12-02-2010, 08:58 PM

For the Canadians here and the skill testing thing. Do you have to actually get the skill question right to claim your prize?
I can ask guildies tonight but didn't feel like waiting to know this.

That does not apply in a contest hosted outside the country.

But yes, for contests in all provinces except Quebec, for games of chance not run by the government they must be "games of skill" not "games of chance" even if chance qualifies you so technically you win for adding: 10 + 40 -5, or something like that, and not for being selected to win.

Lorien_the_First_One

12-02-2010, 08:59 PM

The link is correct, make sure you are logged into my.ddo.com or you will get an error message. The link should take you to a my.ddo.com page.

neg rep for replying to this but not answering in any way the many concerns raised by non americana.

PopeJual

12-02-2010, 09:21 PM

neg rep for replying to this but not answering in any way the many concerns raised by non americana.

I'm willing to give even odds on a Large Devil Scale that Cordovan/Jerry does not have permission to answer the many concerns raised by people who live outside the United States and the District of Columbia (excluding Puerto Rico, the US Virgin Islands and all overseas territories, posessions, military instalations, etc).

(and remember, this contest is NOT open to Americans only. It is open to current legal residents of [legal locations inserted here], whether they are a US citizen or a resident alien and it is not open to ex-pats and anyone currently serving overseas.)

Lorien_the_First_One

12-02-2010, 09:25 PM

I'm willing to give even odds on a Large Devil Scale that Cordovan/Jerry does not have permission to answer the many concerns raised by people who live outside the United States and the District of Columbia (excluding Puerto Rico, the US Virgin Islands and all overseas territories, posessions, military instalations, etc).

(and remember, this contest is NOT open to Americans only. It is open to current legal residents of [legal locations inserted here], whether they are a US citizen or a resident alien and it is not open to ex-pats and anyone currently serving overseas.)

Yes, I said Americans, not American residents. My defintion was only 99% correct. :rolleyes:

And I'm sure they are under orders...but you see you express your displeasure to the CS staff because its their job to communicate and they can express that back to their bosses since I'm pretty sure the President of the WB won't read my email or take my call.

Rumbaar

12-02-2010, 10:50 PM

RequiemVampie

12-02-2010, 11:23 PM

For the Canadians here and the skill testing thing. Do you have to actually get the skill question right to claim your prize?
I can ask guildies tonight but didn't feel like waiting to know this.

In certain cases, yes. There was a local man that had won a flat panel 27" LCD TV from the Tim Horton's "Roll Up The Rim to Win" contest. He got the skill testing question wrong when he went to claim it.

He was allowed to use a calculator.
He was even allowed to take the form home and bring it back if he wanted.
But he didn't do either.
The friend he had brought with him just laughed his a$$ off.:D

LrdSlvrhnd

12-02-2010, 11:28 PM

whitehawk74

12-03-2010, 01:30 AM

that's the stupidest reply I've read.

those companies are localized to their country and area.
i dont expect McDonald's in the USA to include me in their competitions because the McDonald's in Australia runs the same or similar competition for us.
these prizes can also be swapped for money. if you win a car you can sell it.
you cant do anything with TP's except use them in the game. The chance of a gold farmer winning and somehow making a real money profit is extremely slim.

think before you post.

**APPEND:
Many people cant register or log in to enter this competition - if Turbine thinks that a web page that fails that much is acceptable then they should think again before they attempt something as big as a lottery.
I wonder how many people win first place? I bet it's not 1. I cant wait for that thread.

MalkavianX

12-03-2010, 01:30 AM

Y'know, I'm often seeing various contests and whatnot run by other companies, such as Dr Pepper or Subway or McDonald's, where the rules clearly state they're open to US residents only. Wonder if THEY get as much grief about it from non-US residents as Turbine is... 'cause I'm pretty sure McD's is a hell of a lot more international than Turbine is.

Problem with this is that McDonalds is generous enough (and gods know, rich enough) to have the same, but seperate contest in Canada. Take their Monopoly game for instance. Same thing as in the states, just with slightly different rules. Oh, and a "celebrity Jeopardy easy" skill testing question. Same thing goes for Subway and Dr Pepper for that matter. But your point is moot anyways. I, being from Canada, don't pay McDonalds, Subway, or Dr Pepper a monthly fee to enjoy their services. I do however, pay Turbine a monthly fee to pay their game. The way it should've been worded was:

Contest is open to anyone who supports our company and keeps it going. Because without paying customers we would've gone under a long time ago....

P.S. I received neg rep for my last post asking why Canadians weren't allowed to enter? LOL. Good for you. Here's a cookie.

Chatuyscha

12-03-2010, 03:27 AM

neg rep for replying to this but not answering in any way the many concerns raised by non americana.

Im waiting too, for signs of life.

D-molisher

12-03-2010, 03:31 AM

PPPPPPPPPPPPPPFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
Its only for USA peops ....
Doooooooooooooooh.
But typical, usually Turbine think only US peops play DDO.

Aussieee

12-03-2010, 03:34 AM

Oh the things I could buy. Pretty armors for everyone......new haircut.......fancy ship....... now I just need to win..... :p

Aesop

12-03-2010, 06:16 AM

I'm having problems with getting the page to come up... not sure why.

The initial submit page comes up but when I click submit the confirmation page doesn't say something silly like page annot be displayed

Aesop

Aesop

12-03-2010, 06:20 AM

OK now it says I'm already registered... alright... I can deal with that
;)

TechNoFear

12-03-2010, 06:27 AM

This is not true while there have been lots of blizzard contests that involve multiple countries, it still depends on whose sponsering the event, and what the prizes are.

For example this one sponsered by blizzard alone back in march of this year was limited to the US, canada, and new zealand.

And Australia, you edited out Australia.

Four times the number of countries Turbine included.

All the current contests include over 20 countries, as do most of the ones in the past.

Comic Contest http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/comic/rules.html
Holiday Card http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/holidaycard2010/rules.html
Dessert http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/holidaydessert2010/rules.html
Catacysm Advert http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/cataclysm-print/rules.html
BlizzCon2010 Dance http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/blizzcon10-dance/rules.html
BlizzCon Costume http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/blizzcon10-costume/rules.html
StarCraft 2 Maps http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/sc2maps/rules.html
Writting Contest http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/writing2010/rules.html
StarCraft 2 Poster http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/dominion/rules.html

Want me to go on?

I outline a couple of blizzard contests and how they have to handle them in this post here
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3445953&postcount=41.

In that post you link to the card contest, saying it was a separate contest for each country.

That is incorrect.

It was a list of winners per country, but the entire contest had one set of rules covering all the countries (see link to rules above).

Even for WoW contests, its not so simple as "WoW did it so can we"

Warner Brothers has offices all around the world, including offices in Sydney (Warner Bros Entertainment Australia Pty Ltd) who run contests in Australia.

Why couldn't Turbine contact the legal team at WB Australia and get the boilerplate contest rules they use?

That would have taken less time than reading the responses in this thread....

joneb1999

12-03-2010, 06:56 AM

Does anyone think maybe Turbine are trying to drive away international players now as kind of crowd control because maybe their servers are too full and they dont want to put on any new ones? I did notice Ghallanda was so busy even vips had problems getting on the servers recently and thats not long after the europeans came over from Codemasters. Maybe Turbine have realised they cant cope.

They dont even feel they need to make any comment to the people they have upset despite increasing the size of their community team so they must think we are irrelevant.

What can you do but sail the boat to the next port then get off.

SiliconShadow

12-03-2010, 07:13 AM

$1000 divided up between umpteen thousand US residents is not in any way equivalent to a 10% discount on VIP subs and TP. If you want an equivalent reduction in price for your "lesser product" you would have to reduce the price of non-US residents (and residents of Puerto Rico, the US Virgin Islands, all overseas military bases, territories and posessions, etc) by less than $0.01.

If you really want that discount, send me a PM with your mailing address and I'll send you the penny myself.

Edit: Also, you Euros and Aussies and all the rest CAN participate in this contest if you want to. This is not for US Citizens only. You just have to move to the US for the month of January if you do happen to win. Go ahead and enter the contest. That way, when you don't win the prize, you can feel good about knowing that you got the same exact prize that I'm going to get even though I live in the US.

Some of our European payment methods are so expensive you can end up paying 3x for the same amount of TP.

^-^ So we pay more AND we don't get competitions, at least we can take part in events like mabar, risia etc.

Being in England my VIP works out cheaper about 30min work for a plebling for a month, however my Eastern european friends cannot even pay money to turbine, and some who can come from countries that are THAT poor I earn what they earn in a month in a day and get hiked vip/premium prices due to bad exchange rates and payment methods. :(

Europeans get the s*tty end of the stick here but at least my customer service has been flawless when I have had an issue, longest contact time was 30 minutes. :D

They are a good company who do a lot, I am a supporter they can't get everything right especially being in a lawsuit driven country like Amercia, who can blame them, they are too used to if they cause someone else to trip they will get sued!! OMG :eek:

At the end of the day I run and support 3 accounts as well as buying a few TP every month, in total I spend a days wages with turbine a month, and for that I gain maybe up to 200 hours a month playtime, I have it easy, but I know there are some for example in Finland, Serbia. Hungary etc whos Economy isn't as strong and who don't get paid as much and get beaten down from the exchange rates.

Competitions like this for those guys just worsen the situation and put them down, they are my friends, my compadre.

Ebuddy

12-03-2010, 07:42 AM

I have also tried several times to sign up for the contest. Page not found every time.

Same problem here....even on different computers in different locations with different ISPs....

Stitch78

12-03-2010, 08:17 AM

I am in love with this thread! It is like a law school exam question. Figure out why....

And Australia, you edited out Australia.

Four times the number of countries Turbine included.

All the current contests include over 20 countries, as do most of the ones in the past.

Comic Contest http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/comic/rules.html
Holiday Card http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/holidaycard2010/rules.html
Dessert http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/holidaydessert2010/rules.html
Catacysm Advert http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/cataclysm-print/rules.html
BlizzCon2010 Dance http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/blizzcon10-dance/rules.html
BlizzCon Costume http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/blizzcon10-costume/rules.html
StarCraft 2 Maps http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/sc2maps/rules.html
Writting Contest http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/writing2010/rules.html
StarCraft 2 Poster http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/dominion/rules.html

Want me to go on?

You do need to go on because none of those links are for a sweepstakes. Those are all contests in which an applicant must submit original material to be judged and selected as a winner. Therefore, they all (i) have an element of skill involved, and (ii) are not open to everyone - only to those who produce a piece of intelectual property to be judged. These are not sweepstakes, as is the current promotion.

/sarcasm on
However, feel free to flame the above referenced contests because, for all of them: "If you reside in the States of North Dakota, Vermont, Connecticut or Maryland in the United States, the Province of Quebec in Canada, or Queensland, Victoria or the Australian Capital Territory in Australia, you are not eligible to participate in this Contest." HOW UNFAIR IS THAT?? What does blizzard have against Maryland and Quebec???
/sarcasm off

Zenako

12-03-2010, 08:30 AM

I am in love with this thread! It is like a law school exam question. Figure out why....

You do need to go on because none of those links are for a sweepstakes. Those are all contests in which an applicant must submit original material to be judged and selected as a winner. Therefore, they all (i) have an element of skill involved, and (ii) are not open to everyone - only to those who produce a piece of intelectual property to be judged. These are not sweepstakes, as is the current promotion.

/sarcasm on
However, feel free to flame the above referenced contests because, for all of them: "If you reside in the States of North Dakota, Vermont, Connecticut or Maryland in the United States, the Province of Quebec in Canada, or Queensland, Victoria or the Australian Capital Territory in Australia, you are not eligible to participate in this Contest." HOW UNFAIR IS THAT?? What does blizzard have against Maryland and Quebec???
/sarcasm off

bada bing..bada boom... do I hear Check or checkmate coming soon?

Hey Lorien, were those other times you mentioned that Turbine was able to include Canada, random sweepstakes or submission contests? Might be the same deal as the ones from blizzard then and fall into another whole class of event.

joneb1999

12-03-2010, 08:40 AM

bada bing..bada boom... do I hear Check or checkmate coming soon?

Hey Lorien, were those other times you mentioned that Turbine was able to include Canada, random sweepstakes or submission contests? Might be the same deal as the ones from blizzard then and fall into another whole class of event.

Ok the point is making a contest that is open to everyone. If a sweepstake is not open to everyone then you avoid that and do a submission competiton. Simples. In the UK they often make a competition so easy it may as well be a sweepstake or a lottery.

Blackbird

12-03-2010, 08:43 AM

I've been scanning these forums and there is a lot of tax truths and misconceptions being tossed around. I really haven't had time to read them all and respond to each. However, I am a CPA and a tax attorney and if you have any questions about the tax-ability of the prize, should you win it, I would be happy to answer them. Just don't get into a string of hypotheticals since it is finals time for me.

I will say the following:

1. Prizes and awards are taxable, regardless of dollar value, in almost all cases (the few exceptions do not apply here). 26 U.S.C. section 74.

2. The amount included in income is the fair market value of the good or services.

3. It is irrelevant if the prize is transferable or not. For example, in some states (I believe Texas is one), lottery winnings are not transferable.

4. The fact that Turbine normally states the points have no value is irrelevant.

5. It is the taxpayer's burden to establish the fair market value. The fact that Turbine would issue a 1099 is going to be presumptive evidence of value. If you claimed something other than that on your taxes and were examined, I have to imagine you would lose or at least have a very high burden to meet.

6. I saw something about airline miles in a post -- the IRS has a policy not to tax those. It doesn't mean it can't, it just means it is not pursuing that at this point because it hasn't really figured out how yet. I also saw mention of what I believe is the Second Life cases. I haven't read those cases, I thought they were state sales tax cases.

7. For most people, the inclusion of $1,000 of other income on their taxes will have no real effect. The income is included as "other income" on the line immediately before the "above the line deductions". That means, it is before things such as your standard/itemized deductions and personal exemptions. If you are already in a situation where you pay no income tax because your income does not exceed your deductions, you will likely still be in that situation. The tax on the prize is determined based on your marginal tax rate, which is the rate of tax on $1 of additional income. It will vary by person. For example, mine (in 2010 rates, who knows what 2011 rates will be) is 25% plus a state rate of 5.75% for a total of 30.75%.

8. With Turbine issuing a 1099, as they are required to do, the IRS will be able to match it to your return and if you don't include it, they will know.

9. I saw one mention about casino winnings. Do not confuse the casinos' reporting requirements with what the taxpayer must include in income. The casino is not required to issue a W-2G (gambling equivalent of a 1099) unless the winnings exceed a certain amount. That is not the same as what is taxable.

10. I saw some mention of Turbine potentially running the contest in other jurisdictions to get around the taxing issue. This probably wouldn't work. Turbine is a US company. Therefore, if it pays something out, you have US-source income. This can trigger tax or withholding of tax on a international individual even if they have never set foot in the US. This is an entire area of law I won't get into here but suffice to say it could potentially have tax implications. I'm not sure whether a prize is considered FDAP for tax purposes or not. I would have to look it up but since it's not relevant, I should really study for finals instead.

Hope this helps.

Kale_Gresh

12-03-2010, 09:47 AM

I am going to try this one last time. And I will start by again repeating that I do not know whether this contest was a good or bad idea. Based on the negative feelings my opinion would be it was a bad sweepstakes to have. But the tax implications of this have not been fully understood.

All of those claiming that this sweepstakes would be a non-taxable event for the winner are wrong. Any winning of any sort is a taxable event, with the fair market value being the amount added to taxable income. The taxpayer is responsible for determining "fair market value" and there are various rules about this. In this particular case WB has stated in the contest rules that the established fair market value is $1,000. They have said a 1099 can be issued. While the winner may claim the fair market value is $0 and not put it on the tax form, if a 1099 is issued the IRS will catch it. 1099s for large companies are electronically submitted to the IRS, and it is a quick check on all tax returns. The IRS could either correct your form for you or "audit" you, probably by a simple letter requesting justification. If the company giving the prize says its worth $1,000 you are going to have a very hard sale to convince the IRS otherwise. In my marginal tax bracket I would expect to pay 35%, or $350, in additional taxes. I would not accept this prize as I would never spend that much on this game.

It is possible you could appeal this with the IRS, even taking them to court and though likely years of court battle and appeals establish the tax law precedents that virtual giveaways should not be taxed. That, however, is not a very likely outcome-nor would it seem to be worth the expense/time in this case.

In addition, noone has addressed the internal accounting/tax issues for Turbine. I would expect the $1,000 "fair market value" they have determined is fully deductible to them as a marketing expense. I am unclear how/if this changes for a virtual transaction given to someone in a foreign country-I would not expect it to be different but noone has answered that. In addition, in countries that do not have an income tax but rely on a VAT type tax structure the producer of a "good" generally pays the applicable taxes not the individual. If this prize was awarded to someone in Sweden (as a completely random example) does Turbine/WB owe tax to the Swedish government on this? When would it be due? What forms would need to be filled out? How many hours of consultant Swedish tax attorneys/accountants would we need?

It is quite possible WB could do a better job at this, and I hope this thread gets someones attention. I am simply stating that while I have a good deal of tax and accounting knowledge I don't know all the answers to these questions by a long shot. And there is not likely to be anyone on this thread that can give definitive answers to all the nuances, risks, and cost/benefit tradeoffs in something worldwide.

Lairde

xavyre99

12-03-2010, 09:50 AM

Keep trying to go to the myddo contest link and I still get this:

Error!
The page you were looking for was not found.

Missing_Minds

12-03-2010, 09:55 AM

Keep trying to go to the myddo contest link and I still get this:

Error!
The page you were looking for was not found.

This is interesting.

I have zero issue getting to that page from home. Works EVERY time.

But at work I'm getting page not found and I know I'm behind various walls and filters here. I've got... 3 fails out of 20 tries.

Blackbird

12-03-2010, 10:02 AM

In addition, noone has addressed the internal accounting/tax issues for Turbine. I would expect the $1,000 "fair market value" they have determined is fully deductible to them as a marketing expense.

Turbine would not be entitled to deduct anything for the points given out. To deduct an expense, you must actually pay it. In this case, Turbine is giving away something that it does not have a specific cost in (cost of developer salaries, etc are already deducted). For example, if Company A makes widgets and gives 100 widgets away to charity, it will not receive a charitable deduction for the 100 widgets. This is because it is already receiving a deduction on its taxes for the costs associated with the widgets (raw materials, labor, utilities, etc). To allow a deduction for the costs of production and for the fair value of the item would be a double deduction. In this case, Turbine already receives a deduction for its cost of producing the game. If it incurred additional costs for the promotion, those would be deductible as marketing but the points themselves would not be.

As an additional example, if Starbucks gave away free cups of coffee for an hour as a promotion, it would still receive a deduction for the coffee beans, rent, utilities, and employee wages that it normally would receive but it could not deduct the price it would have sold the coffee at. The rationale for this is -- if Starbucks had sold the coffee at its regular price, it would pick up that in income and deduct its costs associated with it. Thus, it would pay tax on its net profit. To allow a deduction for the fair market value of the coffee plus the costs would be double-dipping.

I don't really see how Turbine's tax accounting for the contest has any bearing on the contest though.

frznvimes

12-03-2010, 10:16 AM

The taxpayer is responsible for determining "fair market value" and there are various rules about this. In this particular case WB has stated in the contest rules that the established fair market value is $1,000.
They said it was the approximate retail value. The irs website gave me this impression this is something different (not necessarily that they would be different values in this case, but that they could be different)?

Blackbird

12-03-2010, 10:25 AM

They said it was the approximate retail value. The irs website gave me this impression this is something different (not necessarily that they would be different values in this case, but that they could be different)?

As I stated above, the taxpayer has the burden of determining fair market value. Let me give you an example:

Oprah gives away 2010 Toyota Priuses to everyone in her studio audience.
The sticker price on the car is $31,000.
I'm in the audience and I get my new 2010 Prius. I have the following options:
1. Report the $31,000 in income on my taxes.
2. Go around to a few dealers and get quotes on how much they would buy the car from me (in new condition). I can then average those quotes as the fair market value and include that amount on my tax return. For purposes of the example, say this averages out to $27,000.

Now, Oprah will likely issue me a 1099 for $31,000 (and I will actually have to pay income taxes on the car before I take possession but that's only for prizes over a certain value and not at issue here). I include the $27,000 on my taxes and the IRS sends me a notice. I send in copies of my offers from the dealers as proof of fair market value.

The problem in this case is you cannot do option #2 because the points are non-transferable. Turbine is valuing the points at $1,000. If you say the points are worth an amount less than the $1,000, you have the burden of proving it. That is the law. Since the points are non-transferable, in challenging your valuation, the IRS would likely look at replacement cost of the points on the date you got them. Since the normal price of the points is $50 for 5,000, that comes out to $1,000 for 100,000 points. If they were on sale on the date you got them, you might could make an argument for the discounted value. I personally would not think it would be worth the hassle though.

frznvimes

12-03-2010, 10:54 AM

ah, that makes sense, thank you. +1

xavyre99

12-03-2010, 11:03 AM

Okay, I've looked into this and you are correct about the proper link. Thanks! I've updated the copy to reflect that.

Just a note that you do need to be logged into your my.ddo.com account to be able to enter the contest. If you aren't logged in, you may experience an error message until you do log into your my.ddo.com account.

How do you know if your logged into your myddo account? At the top of the web page it says I'm 'logged in' but is that the forum log in or the my ddo log in? Are they different?

Grecan

12-03-2010, 11:12 AM

(*tax/laws analysis*)

I have a question (everyone else ofc is free to answer, as well):

Do you think this Sweepstake could be handled in another way (a contest maybe?) so that no-one would be excluded from a chance at the greatest prizes in the history of DDO just because of where s/he resides?

(and i remind you, even Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands, U.S. Military installations in foreign countries, blah blah are not eligible)

Bilger

12-03-2010, 11:21 AM

Cordovan

12-03-2010, 11:23 AM

How do you know if your logged into your myddo account? At the top of the web page it says I'm 'logged in' but is that the forum log in or the my ddo log in? Are they different?

They should be the same, and you are correct that it will state that you are logged in when you look at the top right of my.ddo.com.

Blackbird

12-03-2010, 11:23 AM

I have a question (everyone else ofc is free to answer, as well):

Do you think this Sweepstake could be handled in another way (a contest maybe?) so that no-one would be excluded from a chance at the greatest prizes in the history of DDO just because of where s/he resides?

(and i remind you, even Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands, U.S. Military installations in foreign countries, blah blah are not eligible)

I don't have the ability to answer that question. It really goes beyond the tax law. I know, for example, even in some US states, there are specific laws governing contests/sweepstakes. I couldn't even imagine what those laws would be in foreign countries. It would probably be extremely burdensome to know and account for all the laws of all foreign countries in which DDO players reside. You would have to know virtually all countries' laws pertaining to taxes (including tax treaties with the US), US international tax law (i.e. whether a prize award is subject to withholding if paid to a foreign person (FDAP)), and all foreign and local laws pertaining to contests. I will say that, even if you were only considering the tax law, it would be a little bit of a nightmare.

While I can't say all the reasons why Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands are excluded, I can tell you their residents are not subject to federal tax in the US. They are often treated as foreign countries in the tax code. Military installations are a little more odd since all US citizens/residents are taxed on their worldwide income. It may have nothing to do with taxes. Those of us in tax often think everything has to do with taxes, although this is not true :) It just makes us feel important and maybe a little less nerdy. :D

Zenako

12-03-2010, 11:25 AM

The problem might stem from the second place prizes. We know that they can "gift" TP to players, they did it last year on the BETA server and occasionally on Lamannia in order to test things. So those "could" be considered entirely within game it they were done in that manner.

Not sure there is ANY in game method that would award lifetime subs. (although to be honest there is also no out of game method either for DDO.) That means that it now borders on needing to be a "real world" transaction, as opposed to a strictly pixel world event.

Blackbird

12-03-2010, 11:28 AM

I doubt this will apply but here in Vegas if you win anything over $1200 you have to pay taxes $1199 or less don't have to report or pay anything on.

Have no clue if would apply to this discussion though.

This is not true from a Federal tax perspective (Nevada has no income tax). That number is the amount you have to win in order for the casino to have to report that income to the IRS on Form W-2G (and that's for only slot machines, the number is higher for table games and keno). If you win less and the casino does not have to report it, it does not mean it not taxable (i.e. not reported to the IRS does not equal not taxable).

See this page -- http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc419.html I don't know the applicable code section off the top of my head.

Xenna

12-03-2010, 11:31 AM

Thriand

12-03-2010, 11:43 AM

And Australia, you edited out Australia.

Four times the number of countries Turbine included.

To be fair Australia was only listed in one of those examples (one I added in much later), initially my post only included their 5-year sweepstakes, since as a sweepstakes its the only one that can really be compared to the one turbine is currently running.

All the current contests include over 20 countries, as do most of the ones in the past.

Comic Contest http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/comic/rules.html
Holiday Card http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/holidaycard2010/rules.html
Dessert http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/holidaydessert2010/rules.html
Catacysm Advert http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/cataclysm-print/rules.html
BlizzCon2010 Dance http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/blizzcon10-dance/rules.html
BlizzCon Costume http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/blizzcon10-costume/rules.html
StarCraft 2 Maps http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/sc2maps/rules.html
Writting Contest http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/writing2010/rules.html
StarCraft 2 Poster http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/community/contests/dominion/rules.html

Want me to go on?

So what exactly was your point? I never said that Blizzard doesn't sponser multi-national contests, I just said its not always so cut and dry. Its fairly obvious with some quick searching that even this "infallible global MMO" that people are quoting runs into the same legal issues, even with their large diffence in revenue.

In that post you link to the card contest, saying it was a separate contest for each country.

That is incorrect.

It was a list of winners per country, but the entire contest had one set of rules covering all the countries (see link to rules above).

Those rules above are for this years card contest and don't necessarily have any bearing on the one I posted. But do you honestly think they split up the winners that way just for fun, I think its far more likely that it was to avoid legal issues.

Warner Brothers has offices all around the world, including offices in Sydney (Warner Bros Entertainment Australia Pty Ltd) who run contests in Australia.

Why couldn't Turbine contact the legal team at WB Australia and get the boilerplate contest rules they use?

That would have taken less time than reading the responses in this thread....

You are working under the assumption that its as simple as making a phone call and making it happen, just in my normal everyday life I've found that legal issues are rarely that simple. However I don't really see how adding Australia would of made things any better, only the wording of the arguement would become "Well, you added austrailia, why not me"

Ultimately you'll find that almost every sweepstakes you find regardless of the company is going to be very limited in eligibility by regions.

ceiswyn

12-03-2010, 12:03 PM

You know what annoys me? It's not that I can't enter (well, actually that does irritate me a little, but stick with it).

If Turbine had put up a big ad saying 'Win 100,000 Turbine Points! (Offer available to US residents only)' I'd've been a bit disappointed with them, and probably said so, but yeah, legal things, I get it.

It's that I read the ad, got all excited about the chance of winning, mentally planned out my TP spend (Best. Airship. Evar), clicked the link to enter, and then found out I couldn't enter. It's not the disappointment of not having something, it's the disappointment of having it and then having it taken away.

And you know what? That IS Turbine's fault.

So why, we ask ourselves, do they not have the disclaimer on the front page and avoid all this confusion and disappointment? I'll tell you why. It's so that people all over the world will get excited by the sweepstake and sign up for free accounts without realising that they can't win.

That's unethical, plain and simple. And it's indefensible.

holodeck3

12-03-2010, 01:40 PM

how can you enter the contest if the links do not work,i've been trying for over an hour and no matter what i do i can't get to the contest page.

Rumbaar

12-03-2010, 03:21 PM

It's that I read the ad, got all excited about the chance of winning, mentally planned out my TP spend (Best. Airship. Evar), clicked the link to enter, and then found out I couldn't enter. It's not the disappointment of not having something, it's the disappointment of having it and then having it taken away.Yes and in this instance this is where Turbine have been the lesser of good intentions.

The whole point is to trick more people, internationally, to sign up and then read the fine print. This is zero cost for them to have the number of 'player accounts' increased due to this [for the most part] great competition.

I wonder how many non-eligible new accounts will be created with the sole intention of entering the competition.

One trade off is, when the next PR failure takes place they can claim an even less of a percentage of accounts were affected. Due to the increase in the number of total inactive accounts created due to this marketing ploy.

Therilith

12-03-2010, 04:49 PM

A few questions for the l33t taxXors who posted in the last few pages:

How is this any different from the various DDO store items they give away on a daily basis through MyDDO lotteries?
Doesn't the fact that TP can be obtained in-game without paying change anything?

What tax problems might arise if they gave everyone 4,294,967,295 TP for free?

Rumbaar

12-03-2010, 05:00 PM

How is this any different from the various DDO store items they give away on a daily basis through MyDDO lotteries?
Doesn't the fact that TP can be obtained in-game without paying change anything?This is the question I've asked myself and posted. I even created a thread about an alternate option via the lottery for international players.

Cordovan

12-03-2010, 05:01 PM

We have investigated the issue where some people were getting an error message when trying to access the contest page on my.ddo.com. The issue should be subsiding now, let us know if you see any further errors. Just a note that you do need to be logged into your my.ddo.com account, or you may receive an error message.

icekinslayer

12-03-2010, 05:17 PM

Turbine is very happy to take our money from outside the USA with out having any tax restrictions , so why is there such a big problem allowing us into the competition as the server we are all playing on is based in the USA?

Please re-read this before asking more questions about eligibility:

*snip* ELIGIBILITY: This Sweepstakes is (1) open to legal residents in the United States */snip*

it is pretty clear....

GreenDragonStalker

12-03-2010, 05:30 PM

http://www.wadenapj.com/media/full/jpg/2009/08/26/itow-duck-and-cover-drill.jpg

Dragon_Lady76

12-03-2010, 07:37 PM

This did not work for me, but by searching for more info around ddo.com I found this

http://my.ddo.com/contest

which works

It only works until you click the big green button, and then you get a page from a search engine that tells you the page could not be found!!!

Dragon_Lady76

12-03-2010, 07:46 PM

i Am Canadian - I Have Been Playing Ddo Since It Went Ftp. I Have Purchased A Fair Amount Of Turbine Points Although I Have Not Taken A Subscription. This Game Is Online World Wide And Therefore The Contest Should Be Open World Wide. I Feel It Is Terrifically Unfair To Have A Contest Of This Nature That Is Limited To A Select Few.

I Totally And Terrifically Agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!

KreepyKritter

12-03-2010, 08:03 PM

Twenty four pages of proof that no good deed goes unpunished.

No one in the US has reason to whine about this, and yet... here we are. At least when the forumites come out to band together against bugs and poorly put together updates, they have a reason.

All you Euro's?

Yeah, this does kinda blow for you guys. Sympathies.

To show my compassion, if I win, I'll wait a whole day before I start spending my riches.

PopeJual

12-03-2010, 08:03 PM

I am Canadian - I have been playing DDO since it went FTP. I have purchased a fair amount of Turbine Points although I have not taken a subscription. This game is OnLine World Wide and therefore the contest should be open World Wide. I feel it is terrifically UNFAIR to have a contest of this nature that is limited to a select few.

I agree with the statement above. It is unfair to offer a contest to some people and not to others.

I would still rather have a contest that offers a nice prize to a select few than have no contest at all. Yes, I would still feel this way if I were excluded. If you search my posting history, I have never posted a whine about raid loot that I didn't get to roll on (although I have made fun of the Fighter that took the Greenblade that dropped in his name because he wanted the Force Burst that was on it).

Blackbird

12-03-2010, 08:11 PM

A few questions for the l33t taxXors who posted in the last few pages:

How is this any different from the various DDO store items they give away on a daily basis through MyDDO lotteries?

Scale. The lottery items are so small as to be de minimus. I don't think they've given away more than 100 TP worth of stuff. That's what? $1 at best? Also, it's probably more like a free sample.

Doesn't the fact that TP can be obtained in-game without paying change anything?

A little. TP earned in game isn't taxable. Again, it's more like a free sample.

What tax problems might arise if they gave everyone 4,294,967,295 TP for free?

It's a bit of an unrealistic hypothetical. If they gave everyone that many, it would be pointless to sell the points since no one would ever need to buy them.

sativathered6977

12-03-2010, 08:21 PM

Krysta_Shadowvol

12-03-2010, 09:02 PM

I am also still getting the error message is so frustrating.

Kaish

12-03-2010, 09:34 PM

My friend has a free account and never bother to set up Myddo. When he tried from within the game, he got a strange message saying that the Username he will choose will be seen by all LOTRO members... I mean.. he was logged in DDO.. and surprisingly enough, the account creation failed for unknown reason, telling him to try later.

Rumbaar

12-03-2010, 11:05 PM

Phoenix2k

12-04-2010, 12:23 AM

Hey. I too, as many, many others, was deeply disappointed in the way this contest was put together. Open only to US residents? Why? As already pointed out a system already exists that allows a random reward to ALL players not just those that happen to live in a small percentage of the world designated the US. That is the lottery, why not use this system AND open it to everyone. You are punishing people for not being in a specific country, and that really does push the discrimination barrier a fair way, if people want to cover legals. But not that I am threatening anything, but I think if you are going to have US only comps, then why not make it fair and have non-US comps too.

On the other hand, if there are (valid) legal reasons, or technical reasons, or even a "sorry, we messed up!" situation. At least address the gaming public. That way regardless of the fact that we will still be MAJORLY bummed about missing the (in reality, VERY small) chance of winning 100k points, you will still have our respect.

Just a thought. I understand that there are sometimes reasons that things like this are not possible. I (and I think a large percentage of players) are not unreasonable. But please address our concerns and issues, again realise this is a big job, but most of us are paying customers in some way, and we may or may not be in the future. A good relationship with Turbine will influence this positively, I guarantee it!

Thats my piece. Thank you.

TechNoFear

12-04-2010, 02:18 AM

However I don't really see how adding Australia would of made things any better, only the wording of the arguement would become "Well, you added austrailia, why not me"

WB has offices all around the world, Australia was an example.

All those WB offices have already developed the 'legalese' required to run a contest in their locality.

It is not like Turbine has to pay for a lawyer to develop the rules from scratch, they already have a huge knowledge base to draw from.

Ultimately you'll find that almost every sweepstakes you find regardless of the company is going to be very limited in eligibility by regions.

Then shouldn't a company selling a product world wide consider an alternative promotional method that can include all their customers? (or at least make fewer feel excluded?)

Rizzia

12-04-2010, 08:28 AM

Uska

12-04-2010, 08:56 AM

Blackbird

12-04-2010, 09:10 AM

So let me get this straight, if you win a free prize draw (sweepstake) in the US you have to pay tax on it. Yet if you were to win the same prize in a competition here in England you dont...Why on earth isnt this competition just run through say Warner Brothers UK...Then it gets around all these frankly stupid US tax laws.

Yes, prizes and awards are generally taxable in the US (except in some limited situations not applicable here). It wouldn't matter at all if it was run through Warner Brothers UK. US citizens/resident aliens are taxed on their worldwide income based on US law regardless of where there are located. For example, I could be living in Tokyo working for a Japanese company and I would still be subject to, and have to file, US taxes. I suspect that is actually true in the UK as well although I am less familiar with their laws. I know the US-UK tax treaty has provisions in it that would allow the UK to tax its citizens located in the US. How and if they do it I don't know but it is in the treaty.

One thing I think a lot of people are missing is that, generally, almost all contests in a country are limited to the citizens/residents of that country for legal reasons. Even if it has nothing to do with taxes (which it is probably a combination of tax and non-tax issues), if a company runs a contest in a foreign country it is potentially exposing itself to their laws. That could result in unforeseen liabilities and problems and it's probably just not worth it. I suspect if, for example, a Japanese company had a sweepstakes where you could win a prize, it would be open to Japanese residents only (I deliberately did not pick an EU country for this example, I know there are a lot of inter-country EU laws about discrimination, etc similar to the US privileges and immunities clause). I can't say for sure since I don't know Japanese law but I doubt the US is alone in this. Yes, many multi-national companies are subject to multi-national laws because of their operations in those countries but that is a foreseen managed risk and often it is done through wholly-owned subsidiaries.

I am about 98% sure the reason why the contest is limited to US citizens/residents physically located in the US is for legal reasons. I have never seen a company explain the legal reasons to customers. For example, warranties on products contain a lot of legal restrictions and disclaimers without a detailed legal brief as to why those restrictions and disclaimers exist. Even if the legal reasons were posted, they would likely not make sense to anyone who did not specialize in international law.

AZgreentea

12-04-2010, 09:22 AM

I love all of the barracks lawyers that are posting in this thread. It seems that DDO is played by a worldwide army of experts in international law. :D

Blackbird

12-04-2010, 09:31 AM

I love all of the barracks lawyers that are posting in this thread. It seems that DDO is played by a worldwide army of experts in international law. :D

Not me, I'm not an expert in any area of law :) My specialty may be tax but few people are experts in anything but a specific area of tax law. I know some about other areas of law but am by no means an expert. But I am actually a lawyer.

PopeJual

12-04-2010, 10:38 AM

I love all of the barracks lawyers that are posting in this thread. It seems that DDO is played by a worldwide army of experts in international law. :D

This.

Also, and a followup of amusement at all of the "I can't think of a reason why they can't do it for my country too, so it must be easy to do it for my country and Turbine is just lazy/unethical/xenophobic."

Impaqt

12-04-2010, 11:54 AM

my.ddo.com/contest

page not found.

:(

Blackbird

12-04-2010, 12:20 PM

my.ddo.com/contest

page not found.

:(

It worked for me from the beginning but I know many have had problems.

Bakfyre

12-04-2010, 12:29 PM

That one didn't work for me either. The one they sent me in email did though:

http://my.ddo.com/100k

Hope it works for you.

Lukien1951

12-04-2010, 12:50 PM

So, Turbine can steal the New Zealand Haka and put it as the half orc dance, but can't include New Zealand in their competition!! Innately unfair that these competitions are not as universal as the game itself. Boo, Turbine.

icekinslayer

12-04-2010, 01:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by icekinslayer:
If you are a legal resident in the US, you can enter the sweepstakes. If you are NOT a legal resident in the US, quit your b**ching. Problem solved, thank you. As you were...

Quote:
Originally Posted by icekinslayer:
Some pretty rediculous responses in this thread.

You can spin this how you like. I stated the facts, and facts win. You lose.

Dandonk

12-04-2010, 01:19 PM

You can spin this how you like. I stated the facts, and facts win. You lose.

Ummm.... right then.... or something...

ceiswyn

12-04-2010, 01:51 PM

One thing I think a lot of people are missing is that, generally, almost all contests in a country are limited to the citizens/residents of that country for legal reasons.

One thing I think almost everyone else is missing is that the contest not being available isn't even half the issue. The main problem is that Turbine misled its international players by not making that fact clear up-front. And the only reasons most of us can think of for not making that fact clear up-front involve actual intent to deceive.

ceiswyn

12-04-2010, 01:55 PM

(And in fact, I didn't notice the restriction until I'd successfully entered. Oops.)

Blackbird

12-04-2010, 02:00 PM

One thing I think almost everyone else is missing is that the contest not being available isn't even half the issue. The main problem is that Turbine misled its international players by not making that fact clear up-front. And the only reasons most of us can think of for not making that fact clear up-front involve actual intent to deceive.

I agree that they should have disclosed in the announcement, rather than the fine print, that it was only available to US residents/citizens. But, I don't see how failure to do so was intent to deceive. If there was an intent to deceive, what would the purpose of the deception be? It would only be worth intentionally deceiving someone if it somehow induces or discourages behavior. There was no action required other than having an account (which is free) and clicking a button. You didn't have to buy anything, they aren't attempting to sell you something if you enter, you didn't have to sign up for a mailing list or subscription, etc. So, what would be the purpose of intentional deception?

I'm not international so I have no idea -- does it let you enter? I guess it really doesn't have a way of knowing where you are located unless it associates it with a billing address (which I don't even remember if it required) or an IP address.

Was it poor implementation? Yes, probably. Intentional deception? I think that goes a little too far.

PopeJual

12-04-2010, 02:02 PM

And the only reasons most of us can think of for not making that fact clear up-front involve actual intent to deceive.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
-Hanlon's Razor

Shacker

12-04-2010, 02:03 PM

That one didn't work for me either. The one they sent me in email did though:

http://my.ddo.com/100k

Hope it works for you.

None of the links work for me for some reason.....can't register. Does anyone have another link to try?

Dandonk

12-04-2010, 02:05 PM

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
-Hanlon's Razor

After having slept on it, I find myself in agreement with this. Still, I hope they'll learn something and do better next time.

ceiswyn

12-04-2010, 02:08 PM

If there was an intent to deceive, what would the purpose of the deception be? It would only be worth intentionally deceiving someone if it somehow induces or discourages behavior.

I covered that in my previous post.

What is the purpose of this entire sweepstake to start with? To get new people to create free accounts and get a-spendin' on the premium content.

If you say up-front that it's only open to US people, you only get US people signing up for the upselling. If you don't, you get people to do it all over the world. And hey, by the time they work it out they've given you all their details, and so maybe you can upsell to 'em anyway.

The purpose of giveaways and lotteries is never just to be nice; there's always marketing motive behind it. And if you can achieve that marketing internationally for the price of only doing it in the US by concealing the relevant information, then why not? Well, other than the sheer unethical nature of it, anyway.

ceiswyn

12-04-2010, 02:11 PM

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

It had crossed my mind.

But when I considered that 'Oops! Forgot to mention the restriction in the advertising. Better fix that' would be a five-minute job but they haven't a) responded to any of the international people's complaints or b) made the fix, I figured that my initial cynicism was probably right after all.

Also, I have worked with marketing and salespeople. I know the evils they are willing to perpetrate in the name of bums on seats :)

Freeman

12-04-2010, 02:25 PM

PopeJual

12-04-2010, 02:37 PM

It had crossed my mind.

But when I considered that 'Oops! Forgot to mention the restriction in the advertising. Better fix that' would be a five-minute job but they haven't a) responded to any of the international people's complaints or b) made the fix, I figured that my initial cynicism was probably right after all.

Also, I have worked with marketing and salespeople. I know the evils they are willing to perpetrate in the name of bums on seats :)

If you are going to reply to a complaint, then you need to make sure that you give an appropriate complaint.

I am disappointed that there hasn't even been something like "we have heard your complaints and would like you to know that we are crafting a response to those complaints. Please know that our lack of response does not mean that we are ignoring you - we're just slow to respond to complaints."

That said, this thread is not some kind of xenophobic conspiracy on the part of Turbine. It's just yet another example of exactly how Turbine responds to EVERY issue that comes up. Someone complains and Turbine doesn't respond. Then more people complain and Turbine continues to not respond. People start to think that there is some deep meaning in the lack of response and begin to complain even more loudly. Turbine continues to not respond.

Finally, Turbine does end up responding in some way and usually the response is reasonable even if it isn't very satisfying. They could avoid a whole lot of the wailing and gnashing of teeth if they could come up with some sort of canned response that lets people know that Turbine is aware of the [issue/complaint] and that [they are trying to research the issue before responding so that their response will actually be correct / they are waving something shiny in front of a senior manager to get his attention].