Ammo bonuses should stack with bows

[Fnordian]

Ammo bonuses (the basic +1 through +5 bonus) should stack with bow bonuses to make the majority of basic magic arrows and bolts at least mildly useful instead of useless. Ammo that also does extra damage is already useful, of course, even if its base bonus isn't, but "vanilla" magic arrows and bolts rarely are.

Given that +1 bows are exceeding easy for even low level characters to get hold of, all the +1 arrows in the game may as well be normal arrows. And the same holds true for +2 and +3 in most cases. Even +4 and +5 are rarely of use. By the time you have access to the higher bonuses, you'll almost certainly have a better bow. And even if you sacrificed a couple of pluses for some other effect, the measly +1 or +2 addition you get from +4 and +5 arrows barely seems worth it.

Considering that most people seem to feel ranged combat is, if anything, a little underpowered, allowing totals up to +10 (+5 ammo, +5 bow) is hardly likely to upset the balance.

[Blank_Zero]

The only +10 weapon that I can think of is the Epic Sword of Shadow.
Making Ammo stack with Bows would OP, and I think I would have to play an AA all the time.

/not signed

[MrCow]

Secondary issues have to be considered if you allow weaponry enhancement bonuses to stack with one another, such as the ability to add a +7 Weapon Enhancement augmentation on epic weaponry. It may also pose interesting issues if spells came out such as Magic Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeaponGreater.htm), which bestow a Weapon Enhancement's bonus.

[Blank_Zero]

MrCow speaks truth again.

Hadn't even thought of the implications on that bit really =P

It's 4am though... I shouldn't expect much of myself now =D

[Lencrennis]

If anything, I feel that ranged is nicely buffed over the pencil and paper realities. Recall that in the content from which our addiction is derived, the weapon's enhancement is a to-hit modifier, while the ammunition is a damage modifier. Keywords on the bow affected the arrows and the arrows could themselves have keywords. This is why a high dex build with a +1 psychokinetic frost shock flaming composite longbow firing +5 arrows was awesome.

[Rasczak]

Sorry but I cannot agree with the OP. The implications of allowing things to stack will send everything to hell. There's a reason you only take the highest bonus. Next people will be asking for armour bonuses to stack. The arrow bonus is there in case you have a bow with only a +1. The fact that bows already stack abilities makes it useful.

[Scraap]

Both to-hit, and damage, or just the damage?

This also presumes that RoF is kept below melee attack/second, I'd presume?

As to magic weapon in particular, the +1-5 is already listed as enhancement on the weapon description, so presuming same-type stacking rules, that would likely still cap out at +5/+7 epiced.

[andbr22]

Well as AA i would like (every buff to DPS counts), but know that won't happen. Archery is long raned style of fight (of course after they eliminated sniping from out of range of mobs AI this is much less usefull), plus bonus with realy good burst dmg, and improved precise shoot.
They ocasionally work good with fast elimination of big groups of monsters (Sins) with low resources cost (well arrows are free to AA).

But still in raids where DPS only counts AA are much less usefull than this barbarian that swings with his great axe (or eSoS)...

[PopeJual]

Bow effects and Arrow effects already stack. Get a Holy Bow of Pure Good, craft Icy Burst on it and get some Arrows with an elemental effect on them and you get to do damage like a monk while you pew pew pew.

Alternately, you can grab that same Holy Bow of Pure Good and throw in some House D metal-type arrows and pew pew pew on the raid bosses to do full damage with a weapon that is significantly better than a Metalline of Pure Good weapon.

Archers are the only folks who can break devil boss DR with a LitII weapon (kind of like how Paladins are the only class that can break DR with the Sword of Shadow).


The problem isn't with bows. The problem is with the bow's rate of fire.

[Ganolyn]

Secondary issues have to be considered if you allow weaponry enhancement bonuses to stack with one another, such as the ability to add a +7 Weapon Enhancement augmentation on epic weaponry. It may also pose interesting issues if spells came out such as Magic Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicWeaponGreater.htm), which bestow a Weapon Enhancement's bonus.

Not to mention the Greater Bane bows that could reach +14. :eek:

[Scraap]

One thing I think folks might be overlooking to a degree at least, is stat effectiveness.

THF is backed up by (1.5 STR mod + (1.5*0.5 glancing) ) so 2.25% Str determining damage.
TWF takes a hit in Str for the 17 Dex requirement for to-hit and damage for double the effects alongside 1.5 Str (50% offhand iirc, at least) damage.

Any of the ranged weapons requiring ammunition take Dex to hit the broad side of a barn, and either Str or Int to deal damage.

Folks have argued for a long, long time now that twf needs to be a hairsbreath better dps wise than THF due to the feat, stat, and item investment. Ranged takes more feats (quite a few of which are granted automatically to rangers, admittedly), casting (If AA) or purchasing (if anything else) half the pair of items constantly, and double the stat investment, while still doing half the rate of attack.

I'd hardly call an extra 5 damage game-breakingly OP.

[Ravoc-DDO]

Just make power attack work for ranged as long as the toon has bow strength as well.

[Fnordian]

Everyone has made some good points here, and admittedly you can get some decent ranged damage with the right skills and equipment, but as Scraap points out, an extra +5 still isn't really overpowered. However, if bonuses above +5 would worry people, I'd even go for a +5 total cap. And even if it only applied to damage that would still be something.

@Rasczak: Re: Stacking: Shields add to AC. It seems that the ammo bonus, being separate from a bow, should add to the total. If you have a +1 bow, plain vanilla +1 arrows are useless. By the time you find +2 and +3 arrows, you'll have found at least a +2 or +3 bow to use.

So my main point is that the base bonus of +1 through +3 ammo is about 99% useless in the game. This just seems sad considering how much of it is found while questing, as it could easily be made to be useful. :) When I was new to the game, I ended up accumulating hundreds and hundreds of +1 arrows without even trying, and then realized they were totally worthless.

In any event, I'm sure the chance of Turbine changing this rule is even lower than the chance of a L1 character killing a devil with a +1 arrow, so all those who like the status quo can rest easy tonight. ;)

[Nite_Prowler]

DnD has never allowed the same kind of buffs to stack.
If you have full plate armor that gives you an AC of 30
adding bracers of AC 4 won't stack with your full plate armor to give an AC of 34.

Same goes for any kind of buff, natural AC wont stack with natural AC. Deflection wont stack with deflection.

Same goes for weapons.
A +1 Bow wont stack with a +1 arrow.
If you have a named bow then the +1-5 arrows are beneficial.

If someone is getting tons of +1 arrows that they don't want.
They sell real well in the AH ;)

[flynnjsw]

so all those who like the status quo can rest easy tonight. ;)

Actually, most people that argue against it, do it because it would be a further departure from the rules that the game is supposed to be based on, not some "status quo".

[Emili]

First: AA make thier own arrows...

Second: House D and silver flame favor produce the bulk of useful general and specific ammo for everyone else. To be blunt every character I ever built who ranged even a little I gotten full house D ammo access at level 6. Also of note if you TR and stocked up arrow - house D's have no ml.

Seriously am going to grab some cold iron for DQ, silver for Harry or else use the 75% +3 sturdies for general mob... If I mount up 500 +5 frost or something I may bank it along with the 100's of greater slaying arrows in the bank but then they too rarely see the light of day... one burst of many shot and 90 arrows are gone in that 20 seconds period... so go figure. I've four quivers on my archer and two on each of my tempests.

Chest reward arrows do not drop in enough bulk to warrent such... not when I could go thru 500+ arrows in a short quest, the economics and time required to accumulate enough are totally unwarented...

The arrows at other vendors are nothing more akin to a +1 sword from the same type vendors... cannot imagine anyone using either... yet you wish to poise some reason why they may? What about the +1 short sword from the same shop care to place some meaning behind that?

I understand your intent but just comes down to - changing the rule of DnD in this case - for simply putting some kind of meaning to some mundane ammo (when there are a ton of mudane items in game because this is a HIGH magic campaign) is just not feasible.

[Devonian]

To be honest, I'd rather they fix the other problem, that of being handed better than +1 items just for getting though the tutorial. Make magic rare again, and you return ammunition to one of its niches. Enchanted ammo gets found typically before enchanted weapons, making it useful in tough fights.

The other niche, is still present. Its cheaper to lug around a wide range of ammunition for varying foes than a wide range of launchers for the same.

[grodon9999]

The problem isn't with bows. The problem is with the bow's rate of fire.

Excatly.

[Fnordian]

DnD has never allowed the same kind of buffs to stack.
If you have full plate armor that gives you an AC of 30
adding bracers of AC 4 won't stack with your full plate armor to give an AC of 34.

Same goes for any kind of buff, natural AC wont stack with natural AC. Deflection wont stack with deflection.

Same goes for weapons.
A +1 Bow wont stack with a +1 arrow.
If you have a named bow then the +1-5 arrows are beneficial.

Yes, this is the way it has been generally defined in DDO, and I'm not suggesting that bonuses of the same type should stack. I'm actually suggesting that ammo be defined as a separate type of bonus from bows. (Okay, I hadn't put that into writing previously, but that's what I was thinking.) This would be perfectly consistent with the way other bonuses work as there are many types of bonuses to the same thing in DDO, but they're defined as different types. You give the example of armor bonuses--there's regular AC, natural AC, deflection AC, dodge AC, shield AC, size AC, sacred AC, luck AC, insight AC, and misc. AC. All of them add to AC but they've all been defined as different so they stack.

Actually, come to think of it, most dodge AC bonuses DO stack, so already there's at least one exception to the stacking rule. But the point is, it would be just as logical as the way it is now to have an "ammo bonus" that's defined as a separate type of bonus from the "bow" bonus. It makes just as much internal sense.

[FluffyCalico]

(kind of like how Paladins are the only class that can break DR with the Sword of Shadow).

.

Red augument from devil assult on epic is a (silver and good) put this in an esos and you have silver adamantine good DR breaker

[Fnordian]

Actually, most people that argue against it, do it because it would be a further departure from the rules that the game is supposed to be based on, not some "status quo".

I'm not so sure that's the reason most people argue against it although I could be wrong. The existing changes between DnD and DDO are quite major compared to this little suggestion, so it's a pretty insignificant departure by comparison, and would still be internally consistent with the same stacking logic used in both games (if ammo was simply changed into a separate type of bonus). Anyway, "status quo" just means the way things currently are.

[Antheal]

Yes, this is the way it has been generally defined in DDO, and I'm not suggesting that bonuses of the same type should stack. I'm actually suggesting that ammo be defined as a separate type of bonus from bows. (Okay, I hadn't put that into writing previously, but that's what I was thinking.) This would be perfectly consistent with the way other bonuses work as there are many types of bonuses to the same thing in DDO, but they're defined as different types. You give the example of armor bonuses--there's regular AC, natural AC, deflection AC, dodge AC, shield AC, size AC, sacred AC, luck AC, insight AC, and misc. AC. All of them add to AC but they've all been defined as different so they stack.

Actually, come to think of it, most dodge AC bonuses DO stack, so already there's at least one exception to the stacking rule. But the point is, it would be just as logical as the way it is now to have an "ammo bonus" that's defined as a separate type of bonus from the "bow" bonus. It makes just as much internal sense.

/signed and +1.

[Fnordian]

To be honest, I'd rather they fix the other problem, that of being handed better than +1 items just for getting though the tutorial. Make magic rare again, and you return ammunition to one of its niches. Enchanted ammo gets found typically before enchanted weapons, making it useful in tough fights.

An interesting point but one that seems to run counter to the way DDO has been set up. Back in the day (first edition AD&D and even earlier), I recall how magic items were supposed to made available relatively sparingly and we ended up accumulating them at a much faster rate than the rules suggested. Even so, compared to their availability in DDO, our campaign looks exceedingly frugal!

The whole DDO economy, quest difficulties, and much of the gaming experience once you hit level 20 is based on the wide availability of magic items. I certainly don't recall playing in any DnD games with wand vendors in the local marketplace, never mind pawn shops and an auction house chock full of the things.

As far as being handed better than +1 items from the tutorial, at least you only get to select one such item...and it's not a lot better than +1. But you do have a point.

The other niche, is still present. Its cheaper to lug around a wide range of ammunition for varying foes than a wide range of launchers for the same.[/QUOTE]

Is it really cheaper in the long run? It takes up less inventory space, for sure, and that's priceless, but since you use up the ammo, over the long run, the actual monetary expense is probably higher, unless it's for types of foes you only encounter very rarely.

[Fnordian]

The arrows at other vendors are nothing more akin to a +1 sword from the same type vendors... cannot imagine anyone using either... yet you wish to poise some reason why they may? What about the +1 short sword from the same shop care to place some meaning behind that?

The +1 swords found in quests are actually useful for starting characters, at least for a little while and swords can break if you run into slimes, rust monsters, etc. But the sheer quantity of +1 generic ammo (whether from quests or collectors) is just incredible when it's so worthless..but doesn't have to be if a minor mechanics change were made to the game. (Okay, I say minor, but whether or not it's minor or major in coding terms and a million related issues, I really can't say.)



[COLOR="Plum"]
I understand your intent but just comes down to - changing the rule of DnD in this case - for simply putting some kind of meaning to some mundane ammo (when there are a ton of mudane items in game because this is a HIGH magic campaign) is just not feasible.

Granted, there are a lot of mundane items in the game. But this is, in my opinion, a case of a mechanic that's almost guaranteed, in the context of this game (being high magic and all), to make this type of item virtually worthless. If the arrows given out were all normal arrows, or special arrows, fine, but why have +1 and +2 bonuses on them when you can pretty much guarantee they'll never make the slightest bit of difference? It just seems like a huge waste when it *could* be made into something useful.

[Ranmaru2]

So you're proposing that I could get my hands on a RR +5 X of Greater Y Bane Bow and then use +5 Arcane Archer arrows or +5 Z arrows to make a weapon a +14 weapon against whatever mob I want to hit?

Are you going to complain if this change went through that they'd have to, thus, increase the AC of mobs as a result of this change? That's the only way you could balance for a bunch of people running around with +14 weapons with slaying arrows, or give every mob in the game Deflect Arrow.

[Antheal]

So you're proposing that I could get my hands on a RR +5 X of Greater Y Bane Bow and then use +5 Arcane Archer arrows or +5 Z arrows to make a weapon a +14 weapon against whatever mob I want to hit?

Are you going to complain if this change went through that they'd have to, thus, increase the AC of mobs as a result of this change? That's the only way you could balance for a bunch of people running around with +14 weapons with slaying arrows, or give every mob in the game Deflect Arrow.

Yes, because a simple +5 to hit and damage on top of what you'd already have now, would be completely gamebreaking for Ranged gimpbat. Did I say gimpbat? I meant combat.

[Ranmaru2]

Yes, because a simple +5 to hit and damage on top of what you'd already have now, would be completely gamebreaking for Ranged gimpbat. Did I say gimpbat? I meant combat.

I suppose all those AAs soloing epics don't mean a thing eh?

This doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement in ranged, but its certainly not a PoS anymore for Bow users.

Crossbow users are still shafted, hard.

[danielost]

perhaps stack to hit. but no bonus to damage, after all it is just a pointy stick.

[katana_one]

But the sheer quantity of +1 generic ammo (whether from quests or collectors) is just incredible when it's so worthless..

+1 generic ammo isn't worthless: I sell mine to vendors and use the money to buy 2 or 3 times as many normal arrows. I do this with all generic ammo that isn't greater than my bow's to-hit bonus. ;)

[Ganolyn]

Until they do something to improve access to stored ammo, all this is just pointless. You'll never have time to get at it unless you solo or have a very patient group (unlesss you want to waste 50% or more backpack space to put them on hotbar).

[Fnordian]

So you're proposing that I could get my hands on a RR +5 X of Greater Y Bane Bow and then use +5 Arcane Archer arrows or +5 Z arrows to make a weapon a +14 weapon against whatever mob I want to hit?

Are you going to complain if this change went through that they'd have to, thus, increase the AC of mobs as a result of this change? That's the only way you could balance for a bunch of people running around with +14 weapons with slaying arrows, or give every mob in the game Deflect Arrow.


From what I've experienced when fighting with and without various bonuses, the extra +5 would certainly be helpful and you'd get extra kills, but it really wouldn't result in a total massacre compared to without the +5 bonus.

However, I also said I wasn't opposed to a maximum total cap on the bonus if necessary.

[Fnordian]

Until they do something to improve access to stored ammo, all this is just pointless. You'll never have time to get at it unless you solo or have a very patient group (unlesss you want to waste 50% or more backpack space to put them on hotbar).

You have a good point there...rendering this no longer "pointless".. ;)

[Fnordian]

perhaps stack to hit. but no bonus to damage, after all it is just a pointy stick.

Perhaps. Many a battle has been won with a sufficient number of sufficiently pointy sticks.

[Fnordian]

+1 generic ammo isn't worthless: I sell mine to vendors and use the money to buy 2 or 3 times as many normal arrows. I do this with all generic ammo that isn't greater than my bow's to-hit bonus. ;)

You're right. It hadn't occurred to me to stop thinking of them as +1 arrows or +1 bolts when I really should have been thinking of them as magical arrow-shaped money tokens. :)