No PrE...All is lost??

[DigitalNikos]

Hey guys, semi-casual DDO player here, who just returned to DDO after a good 9-10 month break to find that "we" now have descent PrE's. Unfortunately, since wizard PrE's of the past were utterly worthless, my main wizard doesn't have half the needed pre-req's (feat wise) to grab up either. My question is simple, have PrE wizzy's become the norm now and if so, how hard will it be for me to group without one? If they aren't needed, the one other question I would have is, do non-PrE'ed wizzy's offer up anything of more value than PrE'ed wizzys in most group situations?

Thanks for the answers in advance!

[Spiderwight]

Hey guys, semi-casual DDO player here, who just returned to DDO after a good 9-10 month break to find that "we" now have descent PrE's. Unfortunately, since wizard PrE's of the past were utterly worthless, my main wizard doesn't have half the needed pre-req's (feat wise) to grab up either. My question is simple, have PrE wizzy's become the norm now and if so, how hard will it be for me to group without one? If they aren't needed, the one other question I would have is, do non-PrE'ed wizzy's offer up anything of more value than PrE'ed wizzys in most group situations?

Thanks for the answers in advance!

I've never had anybody even ask if I had a PrE or not. In my opinion, both the available PrE's walk a nice line between being pretty good without being so overpowered that you'd be a fool not to take one. Having no PrE is a perfectly valid choice.

[MateCarefor]

Well, unless you are in an undead form, it does not really broadcast that you have one PrE or the other.
Actually, being in undead form would be more likely to get you shunned depending on the group, for what that is worth.

That aside, I would say 'yes' PrEs are pretty common and somewhat expected, to one degree or other.
I do not see how it would be required to the point of exclusion, however, or if anyone would notice.
To be honest, arcanes at this point serve some pretty regimented group rolls in most situations, so as long as you can fill that niche, you will be fine.

It might be a good idea to see if you still have a free feat exchange available from Lockania to swap into at least a rudimentary tier of ArchMage if for nothing else the bonus spell points.
In running Epic content, you may be expected to have some decent dc's on your cc spells, so, again, some AM focus can help or be sure to item up to enhance your dc's and Int score as much as you can to compensate.

Hope it helps! :D

[dkyle]

All you need for Archmage is Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, and Mental Toughness. Mental Toughness is junk, so I wouldn't be surprised if you don't have it, but I'd think you'd have SF and GSF in something, on a Wizard. What are you spending your feats on?

If you're a DC-based caster, Archmage is great, and should represent a minimal change to your play-style. You can just take the SP and DCs and be done with it, or you can also take some of the "cast-for-nearly-free" abilities.

[DigitalNikos]

To add to all this - I just read that Meta-magic's boost an archmages spells (or whatever you guys are calling the 1sp spells they can cast) for free (aka no additional sp's)...is this true?

[bl4uwe]

Both Pre's for wizard are actually rather good, but have some important notes that are attached to them

- Pale Master: Very strong solo AND raid/quest Pre, it gives all immunities that undead gets when in lich (min level 12, Pale Master2) Combining that with Dead Aura, you pretty much get healed every 2 or 3 seconds. Negative part is that ya arent able to be healed anymore by positive spells and cant really expect clerics or fvs or scroll casters to carry harm in the spell list, so ya are totally responsable for your own health in every situation. In Epics and raids this sometimes can give you a scare once in a while lol.

- Arch Mage: With this Pre ya can pretty much boost your own spell school selections DCs higher then any regular (or even PM) wizard, ya also get a load of extra spellpoints when choosing this path which is obviously a huge advantage for wizards in general coz they always seem to run out very fast out of SP. Negative point in my opinion is to make is somewhat usefull, ya have to sacrifice again a lot of those extra SP for extra anhancements and that therefor makes it also rather pricey with enhancement points, knowing ya only have 80 available at level 20.

Cant really tell ya which one is better, IMO Pale Master is the way to go, but I know a lot of wizards who dont really like that path and go Arch Mage, and that is definately not a bad one eather. So in the end it will all come down to what ever suites ya best, and what you consider to be the most usefull for your gaming style of playing.

[DigitalNikos]

All you need for Archmage is Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, and Mental Toughness. Mental Toughness is junk, so I wouldn't be surprised if you don't have it, but I'd think you'd have SF and GSF in something, on a Wizard. What are you spending your feats on?

If you're a DC-based caster, Archmage is great, and should represent a minimal change to your play-style. You can just take the SP and DCs and be done with it, or you can also take some of the "cast-for-nearly-free" abilities.

Unfortunately I didnt take any form of spell focus. Im at work at the moment so I can't pull him up to take a quick look, but from what I remember a number of his feats were spent on meta-magic's. As for DC, he's a drow with max'ed Int, so I imagine that helps my cause a little bit, and I never had an issue while grouped in the past - however that was prior to AM PrE's so....

[MateCarefor]

To add to all this - I just read that Meta-magic's boost an archmages spells (or whatever you guys are calling the 1sp spells they can cast) for free (aka no additional sp's)...is this true?

SLA's or Spell Like Abilities
and yes, Metas are in effect at the moment, but Turbine is holding the option to change that at their discretion.


Unfortunately I didnt take any form of spell focus. Im at work at the moment so I can't pull him up to take a quick look, but from what I remember a number of his feats were spent on meta-magic's. As for DC, he's a drow with max'ed Int, so I imagine that helps my cause a little bit, and I never had an issue while grouped in the past - however that was prior to AM PrE's so....

Might want to check on that one - even the path characters started with a SF in something (typically Evocation, if I recall), so might have it afterall.
Call also just hit the Enhancements tab in your character sheet, and 'Show Unavailable' and see what it shows missing.
(worth double-checking anyway)

[DigitalNikos]

Well heres to hoping then...

*Crossing my fingers that I took one*

[Jaid314]

it is also theoretically possible that you will loot a lesser heart of wood and be able to lesser reincarnate.

[William_the_Bat]

Having played both undead form regenerating (with death aura up) pale master and magic missile and hypno-spamming evo/enchanter archmage, I can say both are a blast, and both add considerably to your staying power between shrines.

I know darn good and well the "free" max+emp+magic missile does not scale up much, but at level 12 with chain missile added to the mix (ow! my spell point total!) I'm hypnoing everything (free heighten) and picking them all off fairly effectively.. to the point of running vale slayers without a hireling or spamming firewall. If I am really in trouble, I can bust out the big guns, as I have plenty of SP left over from taking out the trash with the spell-like-abilities.

For late game, there's a lot of pint behind going lich pale master for the DCs to fingers and wails. Added bonus, the self-healing is pretty sweet for non-warforged. Some quests I just go wraith and displace myself and stand in my firewall/acid fog/death aura and let them (attempt to) beat on me while they cook.... good times!

For epics, there's a lot of shouting about going full enchanter archmage for the DCs for mass hold... added bonus, the "free" hypno.. even at late game a heightened hypno can keep the crowds controlled until you are good and ready for them.

But none of this makes plain old vanilla wizard suck... There's cool things you can do, but that does not mean the stuff that pwned before doesn't still pwn.

[gurgar78]

I went Archmage for approximately 3 days. Blech. Palemaster is for me.

If you're looking to make the most effective wizard you can, then it's silly not to take a PrE.

If you've already chosen all your feats, I guess you're stuck unless you LR or TR. I'm still not sure how you would have spent 12 feats without picking up a single spell focus.

You don't even need Greater Spell Focus for the first two tiers of Archmage. Even a single spell focus will let you take a little bit of the PrE - enough to improve your character.

[Spiderwight]

If you've already chosen all your feats, I guess you're stuck unless you LR or TR.

Fred's always an option, if you're not too high a level. Grab a handful of plat and Siberys fragments and wander over to House J. (OP: If you're on Argonessen and level 12 or below, I don't mind posting you a Dragonshard if you decide you want to swap into a PrE.)

[MrLarone]

just incase you're not aware (and i've not seen anyone else mention it alread) there's now a Mindflayer in House J (his name is fred and hangs out next to the deap predators entrance) who'll swap feats for you... should you decided you may need to. a LOT cheaper than reincarnating.

there's also a quest in the mark (near the auctioneer) that will give you one free feat change as the end reward.

[Eladiun]

Hey guys, semi-casual DDO player here, who just returned to DDO after a good 9-10 month break to find that "we" now have descent PrE's. Unfortunately, since wizard PrE's of the past were utterly worthless, my main wizard doesn't have half the needed pre-req's (feat wise) to grab up either. My question is simple, have PrE wizzy's become the norm now and if so, how hard will it be for me to group without one? If they aren't needed, the one other question I would have is, do non-PrE'ed wizzy's offer up anything of more value than PrE'ed wizzys in most group situations?

Thanks for the answers in advance!


I'm Archmage 5 (Enchantment/Conjuration) on my Wizzy and it is awesome in high end content and Epics. The web (3SP)/hypno(1SP)/mass hold with DC's in the low 40's. I just hypno the group and if no one stuns it I mass hold the one the party is fighting...autocrit FTW. Web is awesome especially on the pesky Clerics type MoB's who always make their will save.

That being said... leveling to 20 I had no Pre and it is mostly about FW/Finger/Wail so get to 20 and respec.

I strongly suggest not going Fail Master.

[Bogenbroom]

Once again, I have 11 Wizards running at the moment, in a variety of shapes and forms. Here is what I can tell you...

I have a Pale Master/Monk (currently 15/2) that I absolutely *love.* It is my only Multi-classed wizard, but he is a ton of fun to play. That said, he is very niche. He has to focus on either necro spells or spells that don't have saves (or for which saves aren't too important.) He needs special gear, since he generally needs his hands free... but melee-ing in lich form is surprisingly effective. One tip... maladroit. Yay maladroit!

I've got one 20 straight Pale Master. Nothing to complain about with him. Didn't have to make any significant sacrifices to get him PM, and he is very effective.

I've got two Archmages, one Transmutation and one Evocation, both are 17. I will make others as they level. Both are effective at what they do. My Transmutation guy is remarkably effective at Flesh to Stone. I surprised myself with how little enervation I needed to get those to stick in things like Prey on the Hunter. My Evocation guy is a WF, specced to Force damage. Between the SLAs for Magic Missile and Chain Missile, and Arcane Bolt, I can blast the **** out of a lot of stuff with a low SP cost. So they both have their uses.

However, I do find that several of the SLAs are just awful, and the cost of the upper level ones is disappointing at this time. For example, I can't see my Transmuter taking the Stone to Flesh SLA, despite how much he uses that spell. I'd still be dropping a fair amount of SP per cast and it would cost a LOT of SP to just get the SLA, esp as the level 4 is the least useful spell in the game.

Lastly, I have a couple of 20 no PrE Wizards, and I can say that I don't feel that they are hurt by not having a PrE. The Wizard PrEs add flavor and diversity to teh Wizard class, but are not a requirement.

JMHO

[gurgar78]

I strongly suggest not going Fail Master.

With the demonstrations that have been made showing how Pale Masters can get their DCs just as high as an Archmage and have considerably more survivability, would you care to explain why you would suggest that someone avoid this PrE?