Invisible as my big butt!

[joneb1999]

Ok we have blur, camouflage and displacement where a toon has semi visibility but that gives a heck of a good chance to miss and then we have complete invisibility that seems to have no benefit what so ever as soon as footsteps are heard. Even more so monsters with a good hide score that are standing in front of you can be more invisible than an invisible toon.

This is my experience. Correct me if your experience is different but so many times when invisible and trying to avoid an enemy I have been as easily atacked and hit as I have been when I was standing naked, jumping up and down, completely visible, in a **** Orthons face laughing at its bloody ugliness.

Whats the score? Shouldnt invisibility mean something these days?

[Kabaon]

Yes, if you have move silently as a class skill it works wonders. Invisibility does not make you sound proof, but it does up the chances you can move about undetected.

[joneb1999]

Yes, if you have move silently as a class skill it works wonders. Invisibility does not make you sound proof, but it does up the chances you can move about undetected.

Erm blur doesnt make you invisible at all as you and neither does displacement but they give 20% and 50% chance to be missed repectively and your footsteps are still as loud or as quiet as at any other time. When you are completely invisible it would be reasonable to me that there would be a high chance of being missed. Say 30%.

Ths barely changes the mechanics of the game much at all as blur is already available at he same level for the same time limit but that actually allows you to enter physical combat and use objects which under invisibility makes you visible again. If an extra balance was to be made necessary the time limit for invisibilty could be reduced by half to 30 seconds per level which makes it more costly to use for a spellcaster and needs them to have to remember to recast.

In regards to clickies they are more useful for what invisibility should be a good chance to not be seen when trying to sneak and to evade attacks when not fighting or running away with the caveat if they do hit out or have to open a door they become visible. The balance for this added usefulness is the reduced time limit.

[Varrek]

In pen and paper invisibility gives you a 50% miss chance but not sure if thats the same in ddo. I agree with you OP that they do seem to have an uncanny knack of hitting me while invisible but I've found that jumping helps since you aren't making noise while floating through the air so just keep jumping while you invis past

[Notajedi]

The monster aggro is unreal.

Yes, I am sure invisibility is being used by players(the uber rogue types use it fantastically), but the average player has to try and use it real hard. I find spending the feats and enhancements to be better on other things.

Maybe one day I will go for a character that can be stealthy, but with them nerfing aggro every update, I do not anticipate it happening.

[Kabaon]

I never said blur or displacement made you invisible.... I said Invisibility doesn't make you sound proof. You know, invisibility the spell.

What I had said that becuase it doesn't make you sound proof, and becuase of that it's easier to find you. Not as easy as say seeing you, but becuase you are making noise as you run, mobs hear you and chase after you, my guess is after some time and distance, if you went into sneak with a high move silently, you could outwit enemies that were chasing you.

If that's not the case, then yeah, the system is broken

[Asketes]

In pen and paper invisibility gives you a 50% miss chance but not sure if thats the same in ddo. I agree with you OP that they do seem to have an uncanny knack of hitting me while invisible but I've found that jumping helps since you aren't making noise while floating through the air so just keep jumping while you invis past

not true for ddo, the mobs are swinging wildly if they havent fully detected you. if you've been detected or *seen* then there is no bonus/penalty... unless you have blur/displace.


camo does nothing but helps your hide skill iirc

[joneb1999]

I never said blur or displacement made you invisible.... I said Invisibility doesn't make you sound proof. You know, invisibility the spell.

What I had said that becuase it doesn't make you sound proof, and becuase of that it's easier to find you. Not as easy as say seeing you, but becuase you are making noise as you run, mobs hear you and chase after you, my guess is after some time and distance, if you went into sneak with a high move silently, you could outwit enemies that were chasing you.

If that's not the case, then yeah, the system is broken

I know what you are saying but it seems you haven't caught on to the fact that spells that still make you visible and audible make it so much more harder to be hit than a spell that makes you completely invisible though audible.

Its not that its just easier for the monster AI to find you when you are heard but that they react as if they have full clear sight of you. Thats mad.

[joneb1999]

not true for ddo, the mobs are swinging wildly if they havent fully detected you. if you've been detected or *seen* then there is no bonus/penalty... unless you have blur/displace.


camo does nothing but helps your hide skill iirc

In DDO my experience is they all react as soon as they hear you like they clearly see you when close enough by with no more difficulty but a spell that still keeps you visible though disorients them a little does give them much difficulty even in close range combat.

[Ratnix]

I know what you are saying but it seems you haven't caught on to the fact that spells that still make you visible and audible make it so much more harder to be hit than a spell that makes you completely invisible though audible.

Its not that its just easier for the monster AI to find you when you are heard but that they react as if they have full clear sight of you. Thats mad.


Look at it like this.

Invisibility just makes you clear(see through). So if a monster hears you and swings wildly where it hears you, it has a good chance to actually hit you.

Blur makes you, well blurry. Kind of like looking at somebody through a sheet of water or say you aren't wearing glasses and you need to. You can see where the person is at, but not really.

Displacement, displaces you. So when the mobs look at you, it looks like you are farther or nearer than you actually are. So if you are standing 6 feet away from them, it makes it look like you are 2 foot away from them.

[joneb1999]

Look at it like this.

Invisibility just makes you clear(see through). So if a monster hears you and swings wildly where it hears you, it has a good chance to actually hit you.

Blur makes you, well blurry. Kind of like looking at somebody through a sheet of water or say you aren't wearing glasses and you need to. You can see where the person is at, but not really.

Displacement, displaces you. So when the mobs look at you, it looks like you are farther or nearer than you actually are. So if you are standing 6 feet away from them, it makes it look like you are 2 foot away from them.

So I conclude from what you said that invisibility and blur should have the same chance to be missed. With blur there is a general perception of where the character is as there is with invisibility so swinging wildly in both cases would hit more easily. The difference with displacement is the depth of space which makes it so much harder.

Well I agree with this but this isnt how it works. Its not like monster AI swings wildly at invisible opponents as right now they swing accurately targeting invisible opponents.

Now in this whole thread I have repeated the same thing to every argument given and it obviously makes sense but as usual it just seems its pulling people who just want to make a fair alternative argument where there isnt one as of yet and I cant see there being one.

[tunabomber]

Ok we have blur, camouflage and displacement where a toon has semi visibility but that gives a heck of a good chance to miss and then we have complete invisibility that seems to have no benefit what so ever as soon as footsteps are heard. Even more so monsters with a good hide score that are standing in front of you can be more invisible than an invisible toon.

This is my experience. Correct me if your experience is different but so many times when invisible and trying to avoid an enemy I have been as easily atacked and hit as I have been when I was standing naked, jumping up and down, completely visible, in a **** Orthons face laughing at its bloody ugliness.

Whats the score? Shouldnt invisibility mean something these days?


get some dustless boots for those times you need to be invis such as those times runnin to adq 1 and such.

[Hambo]

Ok we have blur, camouflage and displacement where a toon has semi visibility but that gives a heck of a good chance to miss and then we have complete invisibility that seems to have no benefit what so ever as soon as footsteps are heard. Even more so monsters with a good hide score that are standing in front of you can be more invisible than an invisible toon.

This is my experience. Correct me if your experience is different but so many times when invisible and trying to avoid an enemy I have been as easily atacked and hit as I have been when I was standing naked, jumping up and down, completely visible, in a **** Orthons face laughing at its bloody ugliness.

Whats the score? Shouldnt invisibility mean something these days?

My Rogues never have a problem staying hidden, except from mobs that make stealth useless anyway, such as spiders and oozes. Come to think of it, neither do my other Alts, but that's probably because I solo a lot and tend to build/play all of them as if they were Rogues.

[Edit] A decent spot skill and/or goggles enable you to see invisible mobs as shadows... That is, if you take the time to look for them as opposed to trying to zerg past. :D

Someone also mentioned going invisible and jumping past mobs. To me, 'logically', this should not work (I know, logic doesn't apply to a fantasy game :))... Stealth, in part, relies on careful placement of ones feet, avoiding gravel/loose rock that can make noise, or even sand or water that can show footprints and ripples. If you jump, you aren't going to have much control of where you land and when you do land you might hit hard enough to give away your presence.

[Ratnix]

So I conclude from what you said that invisibility and blur should have the same chance to be missed. With blur there is a general perception of where the character is as there is with invisibility so swinging wildly in both cases would hit more easily. The difference with displacement is the depth of space which makes it so much harder.

Well I agree with this but this isnt how it works. Its not like monster AI swings wildly at invisible opponents as right now they swing accurately targeting invisible opponents.

Now in this whole thread I have repeated the same thing to every argument given and it obviously makes sense but as usual it just seems its pulling people who just want to make a fair alternative argument where there isnt one as of yet and I cant see there being one.


Do you have a rogue or a character with high spot skill and/or listen skills?

I will assume you don't or you might understand the difference.

Invisibility isn't a combat skill. Once you attack it ends.
And yes, they are attacking you and hitting you.
If you have ever Heard a mob in the game, you can see where they are at, even if you can't actually "see" them.
If you have a high spot skill, you can kind of "see" them, as they just look like shadows.

So if you are invisible and aren't sneaking to stop the mobs from hearing you, they know exactly where you are at, the same as if the mobs were invisible and you heard them.
Mobs have the same skills as the players do. The only difference is that players actually have to pay attention with their own eyes watching their monitor to actually spot the listen graphic.

Blur and Displacement are ment to be combat buffs. They are ment to do 1 thing and that is to make it harder to be hit during combat.

Invisibility is a "don't get detected in the first place" buff. It is ment to be cast and used to avoid detection from the mobs. Once you are detected the spell has no general affect.

It just seems to me that you believe that Invisibility is a combat use skill and if you cast it, you shouldn't be able to be hit. That isn't the way the spell is supposed to work.


Spell Descriptions

Invisibility:
An ally becomes invisible, vanishing from sight, even from darkvision. If he or she attacks a target, the effect is removed.

Blur:
An ally's outline becomes slightly blurred, giving enemies a 20% miss chance when attacking.

Displacement:
An ally's appearance becomes extremely blurred, giving enemies a 50% miss chance when attacking.

As you can see, there is nothing said about invisibility giving you a chance to be missed.
That isn't how the spell is supposed to work. You might want it to work that way. It might have even worked that way in other games, I don't know. But this is DDO, Invisibility works as it is intended to work in D&D.


The spell you are actually looking for, which isn't in DDO, is
Improved Invisibility:
The target creature becomes invisible and impossible to detect using normal vision. After attacking or casting spells the target creature will become partially visible and detectable by enemies, but still retain a 50% cover bonus.

[Phidius]

get an invisibilty clickie for those times you need to be invis such as those times runnin to adq 1 and such.

Probably be easier to get a clicky than the dustless...

Invisibility is great for not aggroing (dungeon alert) while you zerg.

[tunabomber]

Probably be easier to get a clicky than the dustless...

Invisibility is great for not aggroing (dungeon alert) while you zerg.


True,but if he is so worried about being seen the combo is nice,Also i dunno if ive just been lucky but ive been findin invis clickies like crazy lately.

[joneb1999]

Guys I know exactly how spot and listen works and I know the spell descriptions. I read them all before I posted this thread to make sure. Its not about the game mechanics and how they balance its about how nonsence it is.

Ok its a fantasy game but that doesnt mean we dont have some physics rules from the real world to anchor it otherwise we may just as well have everyone able to run through solid object or jump in and out of deep water as if its solid ground they are leaping from.

Ohh. we do have jumping in and out of deep water. :rolleyes: Get where Im coming from?:rolleyes:

And remember PnP DnD does use the miss chance rule and it is a fantasy game too. There is no reason for it to be so different in ddo as opposed to the good reasons for other diffferences to PnP.

[Tirkan]

Once they notice you, they will follow you everywhere. Around corners. through doors. Over cliffs, in some cases. Even if you break line of sight entirely -and- have a high enough Move silent and hide score to walk in front of their nose without them knowing, if they see you -even once- they will always follow behind you, swinging at where they think you are. Even if you're completely invisible and as quiet as the grave. And no, there is no miss chance for attacking invisible players.

It should be the same miss chance monsters and players get if they're attacking while blind, with the addition that players should also get sneak attacks while invisible.

[Ratnix]

Guys I know exactly how spot and listen works and I know the spell descriptions. I read them all before I posted this thread to make sure. Its not about the game mechanics and how they balance its about how nonsence it is.

Ok its a fantasy game but that doesnt mean we dont have some physics rules from the real world to anchor it otherwise we may just as well have everyone able to run through solid object or jump in and out of deep water as if its solid ground they are leaping from.

Ohh. we do have jumping in and out of deep water. :rolleyes: Get where Im coming from?:rolleyes:

And remember PnP does use he miss chance rule and it is a fantasy game too. There is no reason for it to be so different in ddo as opposed to the good reasons for other diffferences to PnP.


At this point you are just trolling. But I will feed it as I am just walking out the door to go to work.

What part of once they detect you while you are invisible you are completely detected by that mob don't you understand.

There is no bonus to not get hit while invisible. That isn't how the spell works. It isn't even remotely ment to work that way. It is a spell that is used to go undetected in the first place. It is an illusion spell and as soon as the illusion is disbelieved, it no longer works.
That's how illusions work, thus that is how invisibility works.

If you want to go undetected while invisible, learn to sneak.

[joneb1999]

At this point you are just trolling. But I will feed it as I am just walking out the door to go to work.

What part of once they detect you while you are invisible you are completely detected by that mob don't you understand.

There is no bonus to not get hit while invisible. That isn't how the spell works. It isn't even remotely ment to work that way. It is a spell that is used to go undetected in the first place. It is an illusion spell and as soon as the illusion is disbelieved, it no longer works.
That's how illusions work, thus that is how invisibility works.

If you want to go undetected while invisible, learn to sneak.

I take offense from you. Im not trolling. There is nothing about trolling in my comment even with the sarcasm. Your argument against mine seems to be saying this is working as intended and my argument is its nonsence as it is as it makes no sense really even in game balance that invisibility is actually the same as complete visibility when detected and something that keeps you visible and within depth of space..ie blur is better than complete invisibility. I can go for displacement being not part of the argument. I give people that.

If its an illusion that gets dispelled why doesnt a toon become fully visible as soon as they are detected. If it supposed to work as an illusion that gets dispelled there is absolutely no reference to this and in the games vague descriptions just being of the illusion school isnt clarification enough.

EDIT: Blur is also of the illusion school of magic and like invisibility there is no will save to see through it. To see invisible you need to use the spell of that name or have true seeing. So even within game mechanics the way invisible works doesnt make sense as the spell see invisible is only of use to us then as we cant just easily hit invisible creatures but monsters get to see invisible automatically? Im sure this isn't w.a.i.

[testing1234]

first time i rolled up a dark monk with its "shadow fade" move which grants invisibility i was very surprised by how different enemy's behaved if going invisible midfight.

gotten the impression there is no one way monsters behave nor a single way the behave when they start to hear you, a large amount of enemies will do a michael jackson moon walk in weird directions if you invisi yourself after gotten their agro this is not true if you would have gotten their agro while still invisible.

[Ganolyn]

...Now in this whole thread I have repeated the same thing to every argument given and it obviously makes sense but as usual it just seems its pulling people who just want to make a fair alternative argument where there isnt one as of yet and I cant see there being one.

They can smell you.

[joneb1999]

They can smell you.

Ok I admit the B.O. It gets warm in heavy armor and I sweat badly. :p

[Kabaon]

Quick question, what mobs are you trying to sneak by, as in higher levels, they have see invis or true seeing.....(level 12 and above).

Secondly, they can still hear you move, so yeah if you are invis, your still being heard, naturally they will attack in the direction they last heard a noise. I have been invis when the monsters would attack the last known area I was in after being detected. Becuase I moved into sneak they only attacked my last known location... albiet it was undead in the sands, it was still funny.

[joneb1999]

Quick question, what mobs are you trying to sneak by, as in higher levels, they have see invis or true seeing.....(level 12 and above).

Secondly, they can still hear you move, so yeah if you are invis, your still being heard, naturally they will attack in the direction they last heard a noise. I have been invis when the monsters would attack the last known area I was in after being detected. Becuase I moved into sneak they only attacked my last known location... albiet it was undead in the sands, it was still funny.

I have used invisibility to get through a lot of the vale and things dont detect me even within range of sight as long as I am far enough not to be heard. The problem is when they hear me they go right for me and can hit me without a chance to miss, except for the usual ac Im sure. I can run far from them still invisible using haste, or on my barb with his sprint and they still continue to head straight for me where I go and how far off I get until they rubber band back, if its a wilderness area.

[DocBenway]

I've never had a mob b-line it to me when invis. Slow movement at walk pace toward sound I make with a head looking back and forth animation.

[QuantumFX]

I would like to clear up something for the OP. Camouflage (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Camouflage) does not give any defensive benefits at all. It gives a +10 circumstance bonus to the hide skill. You should read up on the spells that you claim to support your idea.

Now, if you wanted something that actually supports your claim that invisibility should impart some defensive benefits you should take a look at the d20 SRD

LINK (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility)


Invisibility

Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). (Invisibility has no effect against blinded or otherwise nonsighted creatures.) An invisible creature's location cannot be pinpointed by visual means, including darkvision. It has total concealment; even if an attacker correctly guesses the invisible creature's location, the attacker has a 50% miss chance in combat.

Invisibility does not, by itself, make a creature immune to critical hits, but it does make the creature immune to extra damage from being a ranger’s favored enemy and from sneak attacks.

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Spot check. The observer gains a hunch that “something’s there” but can’t see it or target it accurately with an attack. A creature who is holding still is very hard to notice (DC 30). An inanimate object, an unliving creature holding still, or a completely immobile creature is even harder to spot (DC 40). It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance).
Listen Check DCs to Detect Invisible Creatures Invisible Creature Is… DC
In combat or speaking 0
Moving at half speed Move Silently check result
Moving at full speed Move Silently check result -5
Running or charging Move Silently check result -20
Some distance away +1 per 10 feet
Behind an obstacle (door) +5
Behind an obstacle (stone wall) +15

A creature can use hearing to find an invisible creature. A character can make a Listen check for this purpose as a free action each round. A Listen check result at least equal to the invisible creature’s Move Silently check result reveals its presence. (A creature with no ranks in Move Silently makes a Move Silently check as a Dexterity check to which an armor check penalty applies.) A successful check lets a character hear an invisible creature “over there somewhere.” It’s practically impossible to pinpoint the location of an invisible creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 pinpoints the invisible creature’s location.

A creature can grope about to find an invisible creature. A character can make a touch attack with his hands or a weapon into two adjacent 5-foot squares using a standard action. If an invisible target is in the designated area, there is a 50% miss chance on the touch attack. If successful, the groping character deals no damage but has successfully pinpointed the invisible creature’s current location. (If the invisible creature moves, its location, obviously, is once again unknown.)

If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck still knows the location of the creature that struck him (until, of course, the invisible creature moves). The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance). A particularly large and slow creature might get a smaller miss chance.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has not pinpointed, have the player choose the space where the character will direct the attack. If the invisible creature is there, conduct the attack normally. If the enemy’s not there, roll the miss chance as if it were there, don’t let the player see the result, and tell him that the character has missed. That way the player doesn’t know whether the attack missed because the enemy’s not there or because you successfully rolled the miss chance.

If an invisible character picks up a visible object, the object remains visible. One could coat an invisible object with flour to at least keep track of its position (until the flour fell off or blew away). An invisible creature can pick up a small visible item and hide it on his person (tucked in a pocket or behind a cloak) and render it effectively invisible.

Invisible creatures leave tracks. They can be tracked normally. Footprints in sand, mud, or other soft surfaces can give enemies clues to an invisible creature’s location.

An invisible creature in the water displaces water, revealing its location. The invisible creature, however, is still hard to see and benefits from concealment.

A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one.

A creature with the Blind-Fight feat has a better chance to hit an invisible creature. Roll the miss chance twice, and he misses only if both rolls indicate a miss. (Alternatively, make one 25% miss chance roll rather than two 50% miss chance rolls.)

A creature with blindsight can attack (and otherwise interact with) creatures regardless of invisibility.

An invisible burning torch still gives off light, as does an invisible object with a light spell (or similar spell) cast upon it.

Ethereal creatures are invisible. Since ethereal creatures are not materially present, Spot checks, Listen checks, Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don’t help locate them. Incorporeal creatures are often invisible. Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don’t help creatures find or attack invisible, incorporeal creatures, but Spot checks and possibly Listen checks can help.

Invisible creatures cannot use gaze attacks.

Invisibility does not thwart detect spells.

Since some creatures can detect or even see invisible creatures, it is helpful to be able to hide even when invisible.

Buffs in Deep Sky Blue.

[joneb1999]

I would like to clear up something for the OP. Camouflage (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Spell:Camouflage) does not give any defensive benefits at all. It gives a +10 circumstance bonus to the hide skill. You should read up on the spells that you claim to support your idea.
Now, if you wanted something that actually supports your claim that invisibility should impart some defensive benefits you should take a look at the d20 SRD

LINK (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility)

Buffs in Deep Sky Blue.

Im quite happy to admit I made a mistake with camouflage but the principle as it stands in comparison to blur is no different.

Thanks for the link as it does actually make sense of invisibility and yes as you suggested supports my argument for a more useful invisibility in DDO


I've never had a mob b-line it to me when invis. Slow movement at walk pace toward sound I make with a head looking back and forth animation.

The mobs dont rush when they hear sound (I never said they did) but as you said move in your direction slowly but surely. You must have noticed they continue until they either get close enough that they pinpoint you exactly like they see you or you move again and then they beeline for you. The closer you are the faster they react though and pinpoint you.

[Kabaon]

They passed their listen check, we as players do the same, how is that any different.

[DocBenway]

The mobs dont rush when they hear sound (I never said they did) but as you said move in your direction slowly but surely. You must have noticed they continue until they either get close enough that they pinpoint you exactly like they see you or you move again and then they beeline for you. The closer you are the faster they react though and pinpoint you.

I only ever use invis to get past things anyway, I never stop moving, especially when they've heard me.

On the Listen skill, my cleric can autotarget things he cannot even see the 'shadow' that come with high Spot of, but as they move I see a bursting red bubble come from where their feet would be. This is a visual aspect of the listen skill.

This gives my cleric the exact same ability vs. invisible foes as you're describing.

[joneb1999]

I only ever use invis to get past things anyway, I never stop moving, especially when they've heard me.

On the Listen skill, my cleric can autotarget things he cannot even see the 'shadow' that come with high Spot of, but as they move I see a bursting red bubble come from where their feet would be. This is a visual aspect of the listen skill.

This gives my cleric the exact same ability vs. invisible foes as you're describing.

Ill explain for the last time for the last two posters because the same argument repeated over is annoying. Yes we get the visible signal of sound but that doesnt give us an automatic image of the creature and they can move around us disorienting us where as the creatures act exactly like they see us though invisible, not hiding, when they get within a certain distance. They are not human controlled remember, they are computer AI programmed.

And of course once again I give the blur argument of a spell which allows for sight with a little disorientation giving monsters a 20% miss chance but the disorientation of invisibility gives no miss chance.

Ok thats my last time answering this particular argument.

Also one last question of my own. Why are people throwing up an argument against me? Its not as if its pvp and offers some an unfair advantage or screws up the pve game as blur is a variation of the same idea which instead of making you invisible makes you hard to target but allows you to fight and operate as normal unlike invisibility. if you want to balance invisibility against blur more the time limit of invisibility could be cut.

But the suggestion is of use to everyone and not game breaking.

[squirrl811]

I see what the original poster is saying about Invisibility -- it seems to break down contrary to what makes sense about being invisible. To my mind, when I am invisible I should be visibly undetectable. If I make sound or otherwise get too close to a foe that they sense me, they should be able to take action against me with a chance to miss because they still can not see me. Once I take action to break the invisibility, then they should have no extra change to miss me as I become fully visible. On the other hand, if I move away from the area I was detected silently or quickly enough and not break my invisibility, the enemy should lose track of me.

Obviously, this is not the case in DDO. What seems to happen is that Invisibility is less about making me physically unseen, and more about manipulating the minds of the foes I approach to ignore my visible presence. They may see me, but simply disregard having seen me making me "Invisible" to their minds. Perhaps "Forgettable" would be a better spell name in this case! When I make a sound or otherwise draw their attention, the mind-altering aspect of the Invisibility spell is broken and I become noticed. My enemy quickly points me out to his friends, essentially breaking the spell for everyone.

The only thing I have trouble with is that you can get the attention of an enemy (while invisible or otherwise), flee the scene and hide in a corner using stealth or another Invisibility spell, yet the enemy still has an uncanny knowledge of exactly where you are when you have long since left their line of sight and are using all of your skills to hide. To my mind, this is broken as the enemy should be able to lose you if you expend enough effort to make that reasonably possible. I could understand them following me down the path and perhaps having a bonus to listen and spot as they know I am around somewhere, but their ability to see you 100% of the time once they have seen you once anywhere in a dungeon is flawed.

[Frodo_Lives]

Blur and Displacement offer a concealment bonus that affects the monsters ability to hit you. They do absolutely nothing to hinder their ability to detect you. The bonuses and purposes of those spells are completely different from the invisibility spell.

I do agree that monster AI is a bit screwed up when it comes to being able to detect hidden or invisible PCs. It seems that they can spot you and follow you far too easily even when invisible.

However as others have pointed out they can still hear you and attack your general area until they hit you and know where you are. I can’t imagine that it would be all that hard to pinpoint a general direction of someone running around in armor and all that equipment that isn’t even trying to be stealthy, it’s like closing your eyes you’d still know when a monster truck is driving by :)

[Kinerd]

Invisibility is a "don't get detected in the first place" buff. It is ment to be cast and used to avoid detection from the mobs. Once you are detected the spell has no general affect.This is true, but it is also a very silly way to implement the property of invisibility. If an archer detects me, I run around a corner, go invisible, have an excellent hiding spot, and am perfectly still, it is very very silly for said archer to run around the corner and immediately shoot directly at me.

What Would Daredevil Be Incapable of Doing? That is a motto I think should be kept in mind when designing AI interactions with invisibility.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Invisibility works perfectly in DDO, if you wanna go undetected walk past mobs invisie'd with a decent MS score or simply put points into and get stealth items.

As it is now invisibility is one of the best meal tickets in the game.......now I wouldn't mind them putting a new spell like the wraith form where you float above ground, that way you can be invisible and not make noise...that would be cool :)

[Ratnix]

This is true, but it is also a very silly way to implement the property of invisibility. If an archer detects me, I run around a corner, go invisible, have an excellent hiding spot, and am perfectly still, it is very very silly for said archer to run around the corner and immediately shoot directly at me.

What Would Daredevil Be Incapable of Doing? That is a motto I think should be kept in mind when designing AI interactions with invisibility.


I would say that has to do with invisibility being in Illusion.

Once somebody disbelieves an illusion, they always disbelieve it. So while his buddies who didn't detect you still don't see you, the dude who detected you always will.
He follows your footprints and other signs that are used for tracking to follow you to the corner you hid in and still can see you because you didn't re-cast invisibility.

Now, if he detects you and you SNEAK away from him and go around a corner and then hid, I would say that is a different story. But I still wouldn't have a problem with it not working like that.

If you sneak your character is making every possible effort to not make any noise or leave any type of trail. So unless you are walking on grass and the mobs can see where you place each foot by the bending of the grass, sneaking away from a mob who detected you should help a bit.

But I still go with, Once a mob/character disbelieves the illusion of invisibility, they will always disbelieve it until it is recast.

[Chai]

Invisibility isnt a cure all of stealth. If it was, why would we need hide and move silent skills?

Even in PnP, invis can be countered easily by magical and non magical means. Invis plus good stealth skills is pretty reliable in DDO, but running right past the mob invisible without attempting to conceal yourself or be stealthy will in many cases fail.

With invis + decent hide / move silent skills, Beholders can be sneak humped. Ghoste put up a good video a long time ago about playing a "shodow mage" that outlines how good stealth really is in this game. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UqSHCIJ1jo

[MrkGrismer]

This is my experience. Correct me if your experience is different but so many times when invisible and trying to avoid an enemy I have been as easily atacked and hit as I have been when I was standing naked, jumping up and down, completely visible, in a **** Orthons face laughing at its bloody ugliness.

Whats the score? Shouldnt invisibility mean something these days?

Most devils can see invisible. In fact, a lot of things over 12th level can see invisible. I am almost certain Orthons can see invisible. So yes, against things that can see invisible it is fairly useless to cast invisibility.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Most devils can see invisible. In fact, a lot of things over 12th level can see invisible. I am almost certain Orthons can see invisible. So yes, against things that can see invisible it is fairly useless to cast invisibility.

Nope, this is way off....Orthons and in fact MOST enemies in the game CANNOT see invisibility.

For the most part, if u know how to use it in an intelligent way instead of thinking it should make you some kind of phantom demi-god...invisibility is a godsend and works beautifully.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Invisibility should grant a 50% miss chance.....I see no evidence that it is doing that. (although didn't think about it till recently)

Other than that it seems to work ok in DDO.

But monster AI, and the fact that they can just attack the air and get a sonar fix on your current location is really screwed up IMO.

Anyway, I use Invisibility all the time to great effect in this game.

[joneb1999]

Most devils can see invisible. In fact, a lot of things over 12th level can see invisible. I am almost certain Orthons can see invisible. So yes, against things that can see invisible it is fairly useless to cast invisibility.

:rolleyes: That was a joke.

Im not saying invisibility should be a be all and end all of stealth so that hiding and move silently are pointless. Yes moving quietly makes it better and Im not saying that your invisibility make you silent Im just saying when your presence is detected it shouldnt be equally as accurate to hit you as it is when you are completely visible.

Blur also is an illusion spell and that cant be broken either by noticing the illusion as there is no save for it, as there is no save for invisibility. With invisibility you remain invisible until you make an action that breaks it or if glitterdust is cast or the creature has true seeing or I think if its dispelled magically.

So when you are detected you remain invisible, you dont suddenly become visible as if the illusion is broken. Its just that the AI act like they see you clearly. Where as we only get the sound graphic and we can still easily miss the thing completely whether it has a low or high ac.

If you can be concealed by blur which still lets you be visible then invisible should also offer concealment. Anything else is total nonsence in the context of this spell that doesnt allow anyone to save whether they can detect you or not and doesnt make you visible when you are detected.

[krud]

it’s like closing your eyes you’d still know when a monster truck is driving by :)
but closing one's eyes (blindness) gives a 50% miss chance. All other effects that cause a mob to swing blindly or wildly offer a miss chance or penalty, except invisibility.

However, if invisibility did give a miss chance, then it would make shadow walk even more useless.

Maybe do like blur/displacement and make invis 20%, and SW 50%

[Archer001]

He follows your footprints and other signs that are used for tracking to follow you to the corner you hid in and still can see you because you didn't re-cast invisibility.

If you don't recast it that is fair, unfortunately I can testify that recasting the spell doesn't help in DDO. Aggression from monsters in DDO seems like marriage, till death do you part...

[cptcruch]

What are you trying to get around?

Devils and deamons can see invis!


Shadow walk might be best?

[danielhrobbins]

Im not saying invisibility should be a be all and end all of stealth so that hiding and move silently are pointless. Yes moving quietly makes it better and Im not saying that your invisibility make you silent Im just saying when your presence is detected it shouldnt be equally as accurate to hit you as it is when you are completely visible.

So when you are detected you remain invisible, you dont suddenly become visible as if the illusion is broken.

You're applying invisibility the wrong way ... invisibility is meant to keep mobs from detecting your presence, to keep them from entering that "I know someone is here" phase - in fact, if you play a rogue, you'll notice that most mobs have a "I suspect someone is here" phase before they move on to knowing you are there. Once they are aware of your presence, it offers no benefits, nor should it ...

If you want to be able to walk right past anything and not be detected, play a rogue; hide and move silently are essential rogue skills and I'd be greatly insulted if they were made useless by too much clamoring over invisibility ... and remember, an invisible dwarf running in full plate wielding a big axe isn't being stealthy, its being noticeable.

[joneb1999]

You're applying invisibility the wrong way ... invisibility is meant to keep mobs from detecting your presence, to keep them from entering that "I know someone is here" phase - in fact, if you play a rogue, you'll notice that most mobs have a "I suspect someone is here" phase before they move on to knowing you are there. Once they are aware of your presence, it offers no benefits, nor should it ...

If you want to be able to walk right past anything and not be detected, play a rogue; hide and move silently are essential rogue skills and I'd be greatly insulted if they were made useless by too much clamoring over invisibility ... and remember, an invisible dwarf running in full plate wielding a big axe isn't being stealthy, its being noticeable.

I have a 16th lvl rogue. Argument is moot because the subject and the people that are arguing have too many sides like a persons level of perception vs common sense vs game mechanics vs personal agendas (dont mess with my rogue skills)vs just not reading through the whole argument being made or interpreting it wrongly (which could be that Im not making myself clear enough though I have tried hard).

So I have made my side of the argument clear. :)

[Ghoste]

Its not that its just easier for the monster AI to find you when you are heard but that they react as if they have full clear sight of you. Thats mad.
This is false. There is a clear and significant delay. I have painstakingly demonstrated this fact in videos. Invisibility can be very useful, but as with any tool you need to know which end to hold before you begin using it. ;)

[joneb1999]

This is false. There is a clear and significant delay. I have painstakingly demonstrated this fact in videos. Invisibility can be very useful, but as with any tool you need to know which end to hold before you begin using it. ;)

I know if you are outside a certain range and they hear you and you stop then they look around. I dont dispute that. AT that point if you don't move or if you sneak away from them they generally they will eventually go back to normal as if they didnt notice you.

There are plenty times you cant give them a wide berth and so get close enough that they pinpoint you but unlike blur there is no miss chance. Show me the video via youtube that reveals there is a percentage chance to miss when they attack you when you are invisible or that after they are certain of your presence that it isnt accurate and that they dont then react from then on as if they can see you exactly.

Im not saying after monsters do there look around and detect you or if you get too close they shouldnt swing about blindly to attack you but they shouldnt do so accurately or be able to follow you at a distance. Its s not about how to use the tool. If you accept thats how the tool should work and are happy thats fine but tips of knives arent made for turning screws or handles of screwdrivers for hammering things. ;)

As for people who say they see your footprints. If monsters are looking at your footprints when they attack they certainly will have a chance to miss.

[Thriand]

Invisibility used to be way overpowered back at the beginning of the game, then they nerfed it. However with the introduction of dungeon alert invisibility has become one of the best spells in the game again, to the point that I think everyone should have clickies of it.

[joneb1999]

Invisibility used to be way overpowered back at the beginning of the game, then they nerfed it. However with the introduction of dungeon alert invisibility has become one of the best spells in the game again, to the point that I think everyone should have clickies of it.

I dont know the game from way back but what I read from you they have done the old over reaction thing and over nerfed it. I dont think I have ever tried it with dungeon alert before being detected but what I remember from that harbor quest where players have to not kill the prophets and get the gem or crystal at the end is that once detected and DA is up invisible is useless.

[Hafeal]

I find invisibility working and useful, especially when soloing or running in explorer areas in a rush. Couple points which may be repeating:

1. Many creatures have a "See invisibility" trait - target a creature and hit the 'z' key or whatever else you have programmed to see their 'buffs'.

2. The creatures, as has been mentioned, can hear you. When YOU hear a creature - even if it is invisible - you will see the red marks at its feet, thus allowing you to "bee line" to attack. Creatures can do the same even if they do not "see" you.

3. Many creatures use spells players tend not to - such as Glitterdust and See Invisibility. If you are near casters and they hear you, you will often see them cast several spells before they try damaging ones.

I find that Invisibility works great for healing (healing spells do not break invisibility) and for skipping encounters and DA (also mentioned previously). You must be in stealth to max its effect though. It is useful to use items with a bonus like Move Silently to improve your chance of success. Many players, I find, do not have the patience or desire to swap equipment though. At higher levels, just like you, creatures have much better skills, the bonuses from items come in handy.

:)

[joneb1999]

I find invisibility working and useful, especially when soloing or running in explorer areas in a rush. Couple points which may be repeating:

1. Many creatures have a "See invisibility" trait - target a creature and hit the 'z' key or whatever else you have programmed to see the creature buffs.

2. The creatures, as has been mentioned, can hear you. When YOU hear a creature - even if it is invisible - you will see the red marks at its feet, thus allowing you to "bee line" to attack. Creatures can do the same even if they do not "see" you.

3. Many creatures use spells players tend not to - such as Glitterdust and See Invisibility. If you are near casters and they hear you, you will often see them cast several spells before they try damaging ones.

I find that Invisibility works great for healing (healing spells do not break invisibility) and for skipping encounters and DA (also mentioned previously). You must be in stealth to max its effect though. It is useful to use items with a bonus like Move Silently to improve your chance of success. Many players, I find, do not have the patience or desire to swap equipment though. At higher levels, just like you, creatures have much better skills, the bonuses from items come in handy.

:)

Sneaking helps but its not appropriate to be sneaking toa quest in a wlderness area as a party doesnt want to be waiting on you a lot of the time. But yeh I understand how creatures see invisibility whether inherent of through spells.

Creatures move and and so do we in relative close combat so we are not in a situation where we can always take time to look down at feet. At close range a creature can manouvre to your offside and as you cant see that when you swing you miss. Creatures within such range turn though act exactly the same as if they can see me as I manouvre. But saying that if a creatue chooses to stand in front of me hidden and I swing my weapon in that direction it generally is taken as a normal attack on a visible creature it seems.

I understand that its a game and invisibility operates in its particular defined context within this environment.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Most monsters, including Devils CANNOT see invisibility. But many can. Most giants for instance. Drow and Duergor(sp). Then there are those who have other senses. Tremorsense and Blindsense, and Lifesense. That may not function differently in game. Not sure.

But slimes, spiders, Tharack(sp) Hounds, bats. High lvl Wraiths. That's what I can think of right now.

Also purple named bosses. Maybe some rednamed ones, but most can be hid from.

And then there is the auto-detect range.....approx three ft in front of their noses, at maybe a 30 degree arc.

This auto detect range also seems to vary a little from what I have seen.

Some monsters who are inactive, actually are for all intents and purposes asleep and will not see you no matter how close you are to them.

Monsters have a very high Listen skill. And will move toward you when they hear you. When close enough they will see you.

But may or not not continue to see you after you move out of their auto detect range.

But once thay agro on you they will stay agroed on you for......a very long time.

Invisibility can help you lose agro....sometimes. But only if you get far away from them.

I have seen evidence that they will go attack a friend of yours instead though. And sen some evidence that so-called random agro mobs might even forget about you when they switch their agro to someone else.

But monster AI is tricky and doesn't always react the same way...especially with agro and invisibility.

IMO, and from what I remember of the rules, Invisibility should grant a 50% miss chance. I see no evidence that it currently does this. And I think that needs to change.


There is also a complaint I have about Hide and Invis.

This is a fantasy game. Based on books, movies, and other fantasy stories. We should be able to to the same types of heroic deeds we see other fantasy heroes perform.

A common trick is to agro a bad guy, run around a corner and jump inside a barrel and have them run right on past.....

Something similar should be possible in DDO.

Breaking line of sight and hiding, should break agro, or at least the sonar attack the air, now I know exactly where you are thingy they do.

The sonar thing is probably appropriate (although not perfect) for them finding a hiding opponent who is in the same room as them.

But once line of sight is broken I think they should lose that omnisense.

But to be fair, they should have some method of searching for you.....for a limited time.

And hiding from an agroed mob should be difficult........but possible.

Anyway, Invisibiloty works in this game.
It may be broken.
But it can still be used....well, by those who know how.

[Hafeal]

Sneaking helps but its not appropriate to be sneaking toa quest in a wlderness area as a party doesnt want to be waiting on you a lot of the time.

I understand, that is why I mentioned many a players lack of patience. But usually if a group is waiting for you, haven't they cleared the instance? If they have left the instance, then they have no way of knowing what you are doing - take your time and preserve your resources. Play smart.


At close range a creature can manouvre to your offside and as you cant see that when you swing you miss. Creatures within such range turn though act exactly the same as if they can see me as I manouvre.Are you playing in 1st person mode?


But saying that if a creatue chooses to stand in front of me hidden and I swing my weapon in that direction it generally is taken as a normal attack on a visible creature it seems.
While there has been a good conversation as to whether or not DDO processes a negative to hit, I do not have the definitive answer to the question. That being said, if a creature is randomly swinging it's weapon, at some point it may hit you no matter what if you stay close to the creature - unless you are actively moving to avoid the swing. Simply sitting still is just inviting random chance to catch you.

[Uska]

YOu still make noise and they are following pnp rules fairly well with these spells

[spear67]

Actually, any undead should be able to sense you, as they don't 'see' in the normal sense, part of being undead.

And the question here might better be said "why are there so many creatures in the game with high detect skills?"

Invisibility is just one tool for stealth, and if you haven't invested into your "move silent" skill, things will find you, especially at higher levels.

Might be better to ask for some sort of 'sound level' gauge so we have some way to tell how much sound we're making, and how 'detectable' we are. Results could explain what you're seeing, just not getting any information on right now.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Actually, any undead should be able to sense you, as they don't 'see' in the normal sense, part of being undead.

And the question here might better be said "why are there so many creatures in the game with high detect skills?"

Invisibility is just one tool for stealth, and if you haven't invested into your "move silent" skill, things will find you, especially at higher levels.

Might be better to ask for some sort of 'sound level' gauge so we have some way to tell how much sound we're making, and how 'detectable' we are. Results could explain what you're seeing, just not getting any information on right now.

One of the beauties of 3.0/3.5 D&D was that it (usually) cleared up any debate on what monsters can and cannot do. Most undead do not have "lifesense" and cannot see invisibilty. Some do. And it said in the Monster Manual description which did have it.

In DDO I have only noticed it for sure on high lvl Wraiths. (Dread Wraiths?) Like those near Ghosts of Pardition in the Orchard.

But some undead spawn basically right on top of you and agro on you because you are in their auto-detect zone...and in some cases it is unavoidable.
(and in some cases you need to spawn them to contunue on in the quest...by letting them hear you on purpose....very annoying.)

[Hafeal]

And the question here might better be said "why are there so many creatures in the game with high detect skills?"

Invisibility is just one tool for stealth, and if you haven't invested into your "move silent" skill, things will find you, especially at higher levels.

Might be better to ask for some sort of 'sound level' gauge so we have some way to tell how much sound we're making, and how 'detectable' we are. Results could explain what you're seeing, just not getting any information on right now.

You could sense an invisible intruder with other senses besides sight and sound. Here we run into pnp and on-line limitations which are 'compensated' for in other ways. Since in pnp and DDO you cannot smell, touch, or taste, I view the other abilities compensated through higher skills and more innate abilities.

[spear67]

One of the beauties of 3.0/3.5 D&D was that it (usually) cleared up any debate on what monsters can and cannot do. Most undead do not have "lifesense" and cannot see invisibilty. Some do. And it said in the Monster Manual description which did have it.

In DDO I have only noticed it for sure on high lvl Wraiths. (Dread Wraiths?) Like those near Ghosts of Pardition in the Orchard.

But some undead spawn basically right on top of you and agro on you because you are in their auto-detect zone...and in some cases it is unavoidable.
(and in some cases you need to spawn them to contunue on in the quest...by letting them hear you on purpose....very annoying.)

Ah! Can you tell I'm an old 2.0 vet? hehe. I still have my old blue rule book from the late 70's, never did get into 3.5. I do have the 4.0 rulebooks, but we've only tried gaming under those rules once, and then the gaming group broke up due to other reasons...