Fools Plat

[Doganpc]

or The Fallacy of a New Standard.

Anyone remember why we switched over to platinum instead of gold? I'm pretty sure it was an economic decision based on the going prices for items in the game. Since everyone was listing items at 150,000gp for that +3 Metalline Longsword of Pure Good and people were trading items in terms of Platinum instead of Gold. So turbine switched from Gold to Plat as the standard denomination and now...

Everyone is listing +3 Metalline Longsword of Pure Good's for 150,000pp.

Dogan
Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot?

[Jakarr]

Umm a +3 Met longsword of Pg is worth 150k Plat not 150k gold....

[Sirea]

Umm a +3 Met longsword of Pg is worth 150k Plat not 150k gold....

Eh, not really.

[HeavenlyCloud]

Eh, not really.

Maybe not a longsword but +3 metalline of pure good is good enough for 150k plat.

[Jakarr]

Eh, not really.

Since it is a longsword its not worth a full 150k(if I needed it for some reason I would pay that price) but its **** worth more then 150k gold

[Diyon]

The change makes sense. Just like I say "That costs 10 dollars" rather than "That costs 1000 cents."

However since we were indeed saying "That costs 1000 cents" before the change (at least in AH), this has had the unintended consequence of gp values being used as pp values instead.

[Frodo_Lives]

Without getting into the relative worth of a +3 MoPG I do agree with the OP. Prices have gone through the roof with the gold - plat conversion.

I especially notice it with farmable items such as dragon scales from Tor, Taps, Vale crafting mats, and the like.

I have also noticed a huge increase in the junk being posted for insane prices. Vendor trash weapons, clothing and jewelry are at an all time high, and even those items that are considered junk are being posted at a value that is way higher than they ever used to sell for.

Part of the problem is that there are a lot of new players who don't know what is valuable and what is garbage and an even bigger part of the problem is that there are no real plat sinks and money is so easy to get at high levels that dropping 30 or 40k plat on a twink moderately useful item isn't completely out of reason for some.

The DDO economy is completely pooched, plat is not worth a whole lot and is way to hard to get at the beggining of the game and way too easy to get at the later stages.

[TitoJ]

I like it when people use real world economics, as if they actually pertain to a video game.

The problem? No matter what your currency standard is...the actual value of every item, and every piece of currency in the game is always 0, and will always be 0.

If I give 0 for 0, I will always come out with nothing. Therefore, it doesn't matter to me how much 0 I give, or receive, because my end result will always be 0.

Lets say, I'm willing to sell said item for 135,000pp, with an actual worth of 0.

It's nothing for the another guy to say, hey, that just went for 135,000pp, I'm going to try to sell it for 150,000pp. What people do not understand, is he is actually selling the same item, for the exact same worth of 0.

Because our gains and losses will always equal the same amount, it will seem prices are actually inflated. But no matter what stage a game is in, everything is always being sold for the same basic value of 0.

What's not understood is that no matter what digit you see on your screen, every item in the game is actually sold for the same actual worth, and has the same actual worth. Nobody is actually out, anything.

Why people fail to understand this? Because they forget that you cannot escape the fact that we're in the real world, even while playing a game, and we view things the exact same as we would in the real world.

[Falith12]

I like it when people use real world economics, as if they actually pertain to a video game.

The problem? No matter what your currency standard is...the actual value of every item, and every piece of currency in the game is always 0, and will always be 0.

If I give 0 for 0, I will always come out with nothing. Therefore, it doesn't matter to me how much 0 I give, or receive, because my end result will always be 0.

Lets say, I'm willing to sell said item for 135,000kpp, with an actual worth of 0.

It's nothing for the another guy to say, hey, that just went for 135kpp, I'm going to try to sell it for 150kpp. What people do not understand, is he is actually selling the same item, for the exact same worth of 0.

Because our gains and losses will always equal the same amount, it will seem prices are actually inflated. But no matter what stage a game is in, everything is always being sold for the same basic value of 0.

What's not understood is that no matter what digit you see on your screen, every item in the game is actually sold for the same actual worth, and has the same actual worth. Nobody is actually out, anything.

Why people fail to understand this? Because they forget that you cannot escape the fact that we're in the real world, even while playing a game, and we view things the exact same as we would in the real world.
+1 thats awesome :)

[Doganpc]

I like it when people use real world economics, as if they actually pertain to a video game.

The problem? No matter what your currency standard is...the actual value of every item, and every piece of currency in the game is always 0, and will always be 0.

If I give 0 for 0, I will always come out with nothing. Therefore, it doesn't matter to me how much 0 I give, or receive, because my end result will always be 0.

Lets say, I'm willing to sell said item for 135,000kpp, with an actual worth of 0.

It's nothing for the another guy to say, hey, that just went for 135kpp, I'm going to try to sell it for 150kpp. What people do not understand, is he is actually selling the same item, for the exact same worth of 0.

Because our gains and losses will always equal the same amount, it will seem prices are actually inflated. But no matter what stage a game is in, everything is always being sold for the same basic value of 0.

What's not understood is that no matter what digit you see on your screen, every item in the game is actually sold for the same actual worth, and has the same actual worth. Nobody is actually out, anything.

Why people fail to understand this? Because they forget that you cannot escape the fact that we're in the real world, even while playing a game, and we view things the exact same as we would in the real world.Whoa there sparky... I don't give a hoot about economics, its the prices as they are related to what scale we are using. Back when we were using gold pieces I would see silly metalline of pure good items going for 150,000 gold pieces. What I'm seeing now is they're going for 150,000 platinum pieces. Thats a 10 times increase in value of the the same item and the ONLY thing that changed was our reference point.

It doesn't matter if they sell for 150,000. They're being listed, and thats what other people see when they pull one so they list theirs in approximation of what they've seen. Oh and you obviously havn't read any articles that do give value to electronic items since they take a persons time and effort. The following is a quick google selection of articles that are not wikipedia.

Dutch court imposes real punishment for virtual theft.
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2008/10/dutch-court-imposes-real-world-punishment-for-virtual-theft.ars

Addictive online games have real world value.
http://www.articlesbase.com/sports-and-fitness-articles/addictive-online-games-have-real-world-value-495919.html

A patent application for a "system and method for providing real world value in a virtual world environment"
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7824253.html

oh and cause everyone loves their wikipedia... see controversy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_economy

Dogan
From Gold to Plat.

[Thriand]

Lets say, I'm willing to sell said item for 135,000kpp, with an actual worth of 0.



135,000k pp?
135,000,000 pp is well over the plat cap

[Junts]

Without getting into the relative worth of a +3 MoPG I do agree with the OP. Prices have gone through the roof with the gold - plat conversion.

I especially notice it with farmable items such as dragon scales from Tor, Taps, Vale crafting mats, and the like.

I have also noticed a huge increase in the junk being posted for insane prices. Vendor trash weapons, clothing and jewelry are at an all time high, and even those items that are considered junk are being posted at a value that is way higher than they ever used to sell for.

Part of the problem is that there are a lot of new players who don't know what is valuable and what is garbage and an even bigger part of the problem is that there are no real plat sinks and money is so easy to get at high levels that dropping 30 or 40k plat on a twink moderately useful item isn't completely out of reason for some.

The DDO economy is completely pooched, plat is not worth a whole lot and is way to hard to get at the beggining of the game and way too easy to get at the later stages.

A lot of the stuff you listed has increased in value for other reasons.

A lot more people are getting close to and/or making epic red dragonscale; therefore, they need more gianthold scales. I've made a couple sets since the conversion, and the prices of black/white scales on my server have nearly doubled since august. (which itself was 2 months after the conversion). The reason for this isn't the currency: its that there's way more people competing with me now than there was then to buy them.

The opposite is true with vale farming: only levelers are doing it and there's so much to do in DDO that I no longer have time to go farm funk/twigs with my caster, even at 8m runs of the quests. So the people who do have time or interest to farm can sell for a lot more, because a lot more players have no time or interest in getting them themselves. Greensteel blanks used to cost 100k plat; they now legitimately trade for a red dragonscale (about 7x that). That isn't the plat transition: its demand vs supply.

[TitoJ]

Whoa there sparky... I don't give a hoot about economics, its the prices as they are related to what scale we are using. Back when we were using gold pieces I would see silly metalline of pure good items going for 150,000 gold pieces. What I'm seeing now is they're going for 150,000 platinum pieces. Thats a 10 times increase in value of the the same item and the ONLY thing that changed was our reference point.

It doesn't matter if they sell for 150,000. They're being listed, and thats what other people see when they pull one so they list theirs in approximation of what they've seen. Oh and you obviously havn't read any articles that do give value to electronic items since they take a persons time and effort. The following is a quick google selection of articles that are not wikipedia.

Dutch court imposes real punishment for virtual theft.
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2008/10/dutch-court-imposes-real-world-punishment-for-virtual-theft.ars

Addictive online games have real world value.
http://www.articlesbase.com/sports-and-fitness-articles/addictive-online-games-have-real-world-value-495919.html

A patent application for a "system and method for providing real world value in a virtual world environment"
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7824253.html

oh and cause everyone loves their wikipedia... see controversy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_economy

Dogan
From Gold to Plat.

Unfortunately, you can't get away from economics just by saying, I'm not interested in economics.

If you're bringing up a money standard, you're bringing up economics in some form or another, even if you don't want to use that word.

I also know how difficult the concept is to explain, because you do pay real world money to play the game, and you can buy with real world money, items for the game, now you think all of a sudden pixels have real world value.

I'm just giving you the general layout here, that applies to masses. Not something that's fixed to every situation.

I'm just trying to say, it doesn't matter what you call it, or what standard it goes by...why do you think these conversations happen on absolutely every mmo? Because people don't understand the basic value of everything.

[TitoJ]

135,000k pp?
135,000,000 pp is well over the plat cap

Lol...thanks...terrible habit I have.

[Doganpc]

Unfortunately, you can't get away from economics just by saying, I'm not interested in economics.

If you're bringing up a money standard, you're bringing up economics in some form or another, even if you don't want to use that word.

I also know how difficult the concept is to explain, because you do pay real world money to play the game, and you can buy with real world money, items for the game, now you think all of a sudden pixels have real world value.

I'm just giving you the general layout here, that applies to masses. Not something that's fixed to every situation.

I'm just trying to say, it doesn't matter what you call it, or what standard it goes by...why do you think these conversations happen on absolutely every mmo? Because people don't understand the basic value of everything.Here I thought I had a healthy disconnect from a game I still enjoy playing on occasion...

Dogan
Topic derailed, please find alternative transportation.

[Teldurn]

or The Fallacy of a New Standard.

Anyone remember why we switched over to platinum instead of gold? Yes.

I'm pretty sure it was an economic decision based on the going prices for items in the game.
No, it was because the Auction House was using gold as its primary denomination, whilst everywhere else in the game, plat was the standard.

They changed it for consistency, and little else. All the talk about the economics and all that jazz is, frankly, just superfluous to the point at hand.

[Kabaon]

I haven't noticed a difference with the prices, what was 15k gp was actually only 1.5k pp, suddenly it doesn't sound like a lot.

Generally back before the change, a Metalline of Pure Good weapon was priced roughly about 1.5mil (depending on the weapon of course) but that really only came out to be 150k pp. Nothing has changed except your perception of the price differences.

Honestly, platnuim wasn't hard to get even at low levels really, the trick is keeping it as you go up and want to get better equip now rather than later. If you stockpile, make deals, avoid the AH and sell without taking a cut you can make more.

[Chai]

The change makes sense. Just like I say "That costs 10 dollars" rather than "That costs 1000 cents."

Right, you say that costs 10 dollars. When something cost 1000 dollars you dont go to the largest denomination and say that costs 10 one hundred dollars. You say one thousand dollars. So the change does NOT make sense.

GP has been the DnD standard since the 70s.


However since we were indeed saying "That costs 1000 cents" before the change (at least in AH), this has had the unintended consequence of gp values being used as pp values instead.

Naaa it was only subtracting a zero (or was supposed to be) Plat might be the largest single denominator, but its not the denominator that DnD players speak in - just like 100 dollars isnt the denominator we divide by in real life, just because its the largest single unit denominator.

[Kominalito]

people love to use armchair economics like they went to school for it, but they ignore things called factors. like the factor there was a HUGE influx on f2p players that are confused by plat/gold (i have no idea why, they can pay for a can of pop can't they?). when there are people that can't understand these things, and they just want to charge ridiculous amounts i totally realize that things like economics play a part -they just want more. i get that. but the problem is that a lot of people were around for the change and can't wrap their brains around it. thats a fact.

you can't apply real world economics so generally because this is a GAME. motivating factors in life include 1) not getting evicted. 2) feeding yourself. 3) feeding your kids. 4) healthcare, etc, etc, etc you get it.

[TitoJ]

people love to use armchair economics like they went to school for it, but they ignore things called factors. like the factor there was a HUGE influx on f2p players that are confused by plat/gold (i have no idea why, they can pay for a can of pop can't they?). when there are people that can't understand these things, and they just want to charge ridiculous amounts i totally realize that things like economics play a part -they just want more. i get that. but the problem is that a lot of people were around for the change and can't wrap their brains around it. thats a fact.

you can't apply real world economics so generally because this is a GAME. motivating factors in life include 1) not getting evicted. 2) feeding yourself. 3) feeding your kids. 4) healthcare, etc, etc, etc you get it.

I suppose some people also go to the movies and assume that's all applicable to real life also lol...

But you're absolutely right...there's no risk of failure....there's actually no possible way to fail prospering in DDO, because I don't believe there's a possible way to get negative plat lol. Not through game mechanics at least.

[Rumbaar]

I like it when people use real world economics, as if they actually pertain to a video game.

The problem? No matter what your currency standard is...the actual value of every item, and every piece of currency in the game is always 0, and will always be 0.

If I give 0 for 0, I will always come out with nothing. Therefore, it doesn't matter to me how much 0 I give, or receive, because my end result will always be 0.

Lets say, I'm willing to sell said item for 135,000pp, with an actual worth of 0.

It's nothing for the another guy to say, hey, that just went for 135,000pp, I'm going to try to sell it for 150,000pp. What people do not understand, is he is actually selling the same item, for the exact same worth of 0.

Because our gains and losses will always equal the same amount, it will seem prices are actually inflated. But no matter what stage a game is in, everything is always being sold for the same basic value of 0.

What's not understood is that no matter what digit you see on your screen, every item in the game is actually sold for the same actual worth, and has the same actual worth. Nobody is actually out, anything.

Why people fail to understand this? Because they forget that you cannot escape the fact that we're in the real world, even while playing a game, and we view things the exact same as we would in the real world.Like the paper note or coin in your pocket, it only has the value you or society assign it. To say each value has a worth of 0 is a bit silly.

[lekkus]

Let's face it. Eberron should join the eurozone and accept the € to avoid inflation!

[TitoJ]

Like the paper note or coin in your pocket, it only has the value you or society assign it. To say each value has a worth of 0 is a bit silly.

I didn't ever say you can't put a value on real world items...I said ddo items all have a real world worth of 0. Mainly because they do not exist lol...go figure.

[melkor1702]

I think the biggest thing here is the value of any item in game or not is a compromise between how much someone is prepared to sell it for and how much someone else is prepared to pay for it.

It's why stamps, coins etc that have a nominal value of a few cents or dollars can sell to collectors for hundreds or thousands of dollars.

If you think it's too expensive don't buy it, if no one else buys it either it will likely be reposted eventually at a lower price. Alternatively you will eventually pull it from a chest yourself and wont have to buy it off the auction house.

[TitoJ]

I think the biggest thing here is the value of any item in game or not is a compromise between how much someone is prepared to sell it for and how much someone else is prepared to pay for it.

It's why stamps, coins etc that have a nominal value of a few cents or dollars can sell to collectors for hundreds or thousands of dollars.

If you think it's too expensive don't buy it, if no one else buys it either it will likely be reposted eventually at a lower price. Alternatively you will eventually pull it from a chest yourself and wont have to buy it off the auction house.

What stamp or coin is in current production and worth hundreds or thousands of dollars to a collector? I want to know, because I will buy up them and make a huge killing lol...

[Rumbaar]

I didn't ever say you can't put a value on real world items...I said ddo items all have a real world worth of 0. Mainly because they do not exist lol...go figure.But they do exist, just like the money in your bank account exists only in digital form.

If it had not real world worth, then Turbine Points would be free :)

[Adalita]

I didn't ever say you can't put a value on real world items...I said ddo items all have a real world worth of 0. Mainly because they do not exist lol...go figure.

1. Unless you work in a job where you are paid in gold bullion your salary is represented by a bunch of 1s and 0s on a computer at your bank. 1s and 0s that exist because your employer's computer told your bank's computer to credit your account. By your definition this money also does not exist. The same logic would say things like computer programs and music also do not exist. I think you would agree that this is an absurd conclusion, therefore you should examine your assumptions.

2. At a minimum there is a labor value inherit in every item, i.e. how much of my time do I have to invest in order to acquire said item.

[TitoJ]

But they do exist, just like the money in your bank account exists only in digital form.

If it had not real world worth, then Turbine Points would be free :)

Wowzee...I sure as hell work a lot for that money in my bank account lol, for it being worth no more than a mere ddo item, that isn't even an item, rather a representation of something on your screen.

You're problem here is...my money in my bank account does actually exist outside of digital form.

Purchasing Turbine Points is no different than paying for vip access. You're paying for video game access..not real world items lol...wow.

What do you think they use that money for? To restock all the items everyone bought lmao?

[TitoJ]

1. Unless you work in a job where you are paid in gold bullion your salary is represented by a bunch of 1s and 0s on a computer at your bank. 1s and 0s that exist because your employer's computer told your bank's computer to credit your account. By your definition this money also does not exist. The same logic would say things like computer programs and music also do not exist. I think you would agree that this is an absurd conclusion, therefore you should examine your assumptions.

2. At a minimum there is a labor value inherit in every item, i.e. how much of my time do I have to invest in order to acquire said item.

WOW! lol. So what does that say for people who do not have a bank account? They have no money? lol...

Life is not lived on a computer people...this is silly. Money exists outside a computer too...what the hell do you think they did before c0mputers? They used MONEY! lol. Not a representation of it on a computer. This is too funny.

[Adalita]

Wowzee...I sure as hell work a lot for that money in my bank account lol, for it being worth no more than a mere ddo item, that isn't even an item, rather a representation of something on your screen.

You're problem here is...my money in my bank account does actually exist outside of digital form.


Example: I work. My employer pays my salary directly into my account. I use my attached credit card to pay Turbine for a VIP subscription to DDO

Homework: Please explain either
1. Where in this transaction did my money exist outside of a digital form?
OR
2. Why Turbine Points aren't 'real'?

Note: no one is saying that money can't exist outside of a computer, that would be absurd. You are saying that things which only exist inside a computer CANNOT have value. We are saying you are wrong by showing that things inside a computer (like 'real money) clearly CAN have value.

[TitoJ]

If people actually don't realize that money is an actual item, that is represented by banks on a computer as a digit...

And that ddo items are actually representations of non-existent items....

I think the world is done for lol.

[TitoJ]

Example: I work. My employer pays my salary directly into my account. I use my attached credit card to pay Turbine for a VIP subscription to DDO

Homework: Please explain either
1. Where in this transaction did my money exist outside of a digital form?
OR
2. Why Turbine Points aren't 'real'?

Note: no one is saying that money can't exist outside of a computer, that would be absurd. You are saying that things which only exist inside a computer CANNOT have value. We are saying you are wrong by showing that things inside a computer (like 'real money) clearly CAN have value.

But you're not paying for the items...like I asked...do you think they restock the items after you supposedly buy them? NO! It goes to server upkeep and the such lol...that's what you're paying for.

[TitoJ]

Too silly...good night...I"m done for.

[Adalita]

Too silly...good night...I"m done for.

Thank you for engaging in an ad hominem attack rather than discussing the point at hand.

[dragonmane]

Thank you for engaging in an ad hominem attack rather than discussing the point at hand.

Did you have to bring Latin in on the argument?

[Adalita]

Did you have to bring Latin in on the argument?

Yes, because it makes me feel better about having studied it at school. I suffered then, and now its your turn ;)

[Wrendd]

Ttioj, you are correct in that the gold/silver/copper/plat in DDO has virtually no real world value. You can not purchase plat directly with US dollars (or other currecy), nor can you trade in plat for US dollars (that would be nice, and DDO could be my full time job, lol).

But plat and gold DO have value within the framework of the game. DDO has a virtual economy. A virtual economy must function in order to establish and maintain the value of virtual goods, within the framework of the game that it serves. A virtual economy in a game like DDO is vastly different from a real world economy, but that does not make it "imaginary".

The biggest difference that I can see with an economy like DDOs is that everything is a luxury, there are no true necessities. ie. if your character has no gold/plat then he will not starve to death, he does not need to pay for a roof over his head, does not support loved ones back in the village, etc. With the abscence of things that you MUST buy then everything becomes something you WANT to buy. Couple that with an unlimited income, lots of time, and the fact that we have very few "money sinks" in this game and you get inflated prices.

Remember, "everything is what it's purchaser will pay for it". If someone is asking 150k plat for an item, do not pay it, unless the item is worth 150k plat to YOU. If no one buys it then it is likely that the seller will then drop the price. But, unfortunately, in a virtual economy such as ours, there is no gaurntee that the seller will, in fact, drop his price. If the item does not sell at the price he is asking, the seller does not really have any major drawbacks. He is still (presumably) making plenty of cash by questing and selling other items, he is not going to be evicted from his home if the item does not sell. The only incentive that the seller has is to make more virtual money to fund his next extravagant purchase.

It is reasonable (if annoying) for that seller to place his item at 150k plat for several 3 day auctions in order to expose the most people to his item.

The seller probably thinks something like this:
"Hmm, I have 3 GS weapons, 4 epic items and over 1,000,000 plat. I know that I am not RICH by DDO standards, merely well off. I know many people are TRing and have a large amount of cash to fall back on. This item I have is nice, but hardly the most powerful thing around, but I wonder if I can sell this for 150k plat. If I can't then I can always drop the price later with no repercussions, and if it does sell for 150k plat then I win."

or

"I am poor, I only have 10k plat, but I already have another item that serves the same purpose as the one I want to sell. I want to sell this thing for the absolute most that I possibly can. I will put it up for 150k plat, surely some idiot out there will pay it, most of the people I see running around in this game have soo much cool stuff that they MUST be rich."

When an economy has strong positive incentives to the sale of an item, and no strong negatives to the lack of a sale, then you will get hyper-inflated prices.

As to the change from gold to plat being the base currency of the AH... I am torn. It makes for a slightly easier comparison to your own cash, but it is easy for many people to just keep the same number (ie 150,000) and use that numer in plat as opposed to gold. As pointed out above, that is an actual price increase of 10. But, if they did price it at 15,000 plat..... 15,000 sure looks a lot smaller than 150,000. I think it is just that some people do not think about the switch from gold to plat and fall back on old habits. And others (read: new players, with little experience in selling desired items) might see a comparable item up for a large amount and not realize why the item they saw is worth more than the item they are selling.

I was browsing the AH a few months ago (before coming to Iraq and not having the ability to play DDO), and I looked at the gems section of the AH. I saw 3 "bloodstones" priced for 500k plat. Obviously this person was either clueless as to what a real Bloodstone was, where to get it, or why it was so valuable, OR the person selling them knew perfectly well what a "real" Bloodstone was and was hoping to cash in on the ignorance of others. At least I got a good laugh out of it :)

[redgod]

Right, you say that costs 10 dollars. When something cost 1000 dollars you dont go to the largest denomination and say that costs 10 one hundred dollars. You say one thousand dollars. So the change does NOT make sense.

GP has been the DnD standard since the 70s.



Naaa it was only subtracting a zero (or was supposed to be) Plat might be the largest single denominator, but its not the denominator that DnD players speak in - just like 100 dollars isnt the denominator we divide by in real life, just because its the largest single unit denominator.

everybody has made a point similar to this or at least the same lines. but the fact is by switching to plat the ah prices changed they went up by a factor of ten. so did the plat removed from game via ah fees.

amounts of coin drops haven't changed, tha base price a vender pays for trash hasent changed but the price we pay has changed and as the ah filters out more and more plat you'll see some ballance brought to the market.

[Cholera]

I like it when people use real world economics, as if they actually pertain to a video game.

The problem with your formula is that you're forgetting one very salient fact - worth is, in itself, a construct. It is never a property inherent in any object. It is a belief, regardless of circumstance. Value, be it projected onto a virtual or a physical item, only comes about as a result of a willingness to apply the belief.

[Towrn]

I like it when people use real world economics, as if they actually pertain to a video game.

The problem? No matter what your currency standard is...the actual value of every item, and every piece of currency in the game is always 0, and will always be 0.

If I give 0 for 0, I will always come out with nothing. Therefore, it doesn't matter to me how much 0 I give, or receive, because my end result will always be 0.

Lets say, I'm willing to sell said item for 135,000pp, with an actual worth of 0.

It's nothing for the another guy to say, hey, that just went for 135,000pp, I'm going to try to sell it for 150,000pp. What people do not understand, is he is actually selling the same item, for the exact same worth of 0.

Because our gains and losses will always equal the same amount, it will seem prices are actually inflated. But no matter what stage a game is in, everything is always being sold for the same basic value of 0.

What's not understood is that no matter what digit you see on your screen, every item in the game is actually sold for the same actual worth, and has the same actual worth. Nobody is actually out, anything.

Why people fail to understand this? Because they forget that you cannot escape the fact that we're in the real world, even while playing a game, and we view things the exact same as we would in the real world.


I'm bored and picked the first thread on the general forums to read.

This post was great......

because it says so much without saying a **** thing.

More posts should read like this....clean, plain and having no point. The forums would be a much more enjoyable place to learn about the number 0.

[Helsdot]

Wowzee...I sure as hell work a lot for that money in my bank account lol, for it being worth no more than a mere ddo item, that isn't even an item, rather a representation of something on your screen.

You're problem here is...my money in my bank account does actually exist outside of digital form.

Purchasing Turbine Points is no different than paying for vip access. You're paying for video game access..not real world items lol...wow.

What do you think they use that money for? To restock all the items everyone bought lmao?


Calm down. I don't think anyone ever said that the currency conversion resulted or in some way was affected by real world inflation. You're mixing your metaphors.

The only way to judge the worth of an item in the game is to judge it with ingame currency and value perceptions - anything else is unfounded. Let's say you buy a car for $20,000 and you have a job that pays $15.50 an hour. You can realize the worth of the vehicle (at purchase time) as ~1290 hours of work (just over 7 and a half weeks of continual work). Value can be determined as a ratio of saved upkeep on an older vehicle (or form of transportation) vs the expected depreciation and repair schedule.

However... what is the worth of your car in DDO platinum pieces? I'd say approximately 0.

What is the worth of that metalline +3 sword in dollars? Right about 0. While you could transform dollars into points into platinum to buy the sword, that is only the item's price in dollars, not its worth. The two systems are disconnected. While there is a one-way path from one currency into the other, the in-game market is in no way tethered to the actual world.

The important difference is not that DDO is virtual, but that its market is fundamentally different from most markets and economies, just like most MMOs. Items do not naturally decay or gain in value due to currency inflation and there is no cap on how much of an item there is since they are virtual. Opportunity cost can be measured entirely in time. For instance in order to sell oil in the real world, I'd first have to obtain it. I'd have to spend some amount in order to buy the equipment, manpower and research to locate and obtain oil which would dictate a lowest level price. There are also not unlimited amounts of oil, so it is reasonable to assume that as it is consumed its price will increase. In DDO there are as many +3 metalline swords as we want, we just need to find them. There is no essential cost other than time (and possible platinum for gear repair).

I would say that time is the true currency of DDO, which is related to platinum, however time becomes much more valuable the higher a level you are (due to how much easier platinum is to obtain at high level). Platinum however can't be traded for time, so the entire system is one of optimization on minimal time spent to acquire the least platinum possible to buy items to grant you the greatest likelihood of gaining the maximal amount of XP/plat (and thereby reducing your total time spent), although the act of spending time is actually part of the benefit. Platinum/time conversion based on opportunity cost also exists within only a given window. If you're too low a level to use an item, you can't realize a benefit from it - same with the case if you are too high a level for the item, so that it is worse than anything else you have. It can be realized as an asset though if you can trade it for platinum that allows you to optimize your gameplay at the current level by buying some other item. However ... I'd say that the item has far from 0 worth with respect to DDO.



On the question from the OP; I'm an F2P player so I don't recall how things had been. I'd say though that I wouldn't expect people to dynamically decide that a given number represents the best price of an item, no matter what the denomination is. I would say though that it is likely that there are lots more players at a high level, that more content has been added to the game, making accumulation of currency easier, and that a high percentage of the players that are in the game now weren't around when there was no platinum - so they don't have the same perceptions of value of platinum that you might have. It may be that the going price has increased by a few orders of magnitude due to the number of alternate characters and the ease of obtaining platinum at high levels.

[IronClan]

Too silly...good night...I"m done for.

Yes and you did yourself in with naive assumptions.

MMO economys go by the exact same prinicples and behavour as real world. Just because RL money is more important and MMO money less so. does not mean virtual items don't have value.

I'll prove it to you:
Post your main account user ID and password... (obviously don't really do that) What?! you wont do that? I don't blame you you've probably invested lots of time and energy in your characters, farmed lots of items. Why would you want to throw them away by posting access to them... they have value to you... And even have value to other people.

I sold two different Ultima Online accounts in 8 years of playing that game... I got over $1000 real dollars for them (had a Keep on one account and a Large 20x20 house on the other with GM and elder characters).

Like every item or idea on the face of the planet, the main things that really matter are A) how desirable something is, and B) how many people want it...

[Rumbaar]

If people actually don't realize that money is an actual item, that is represented by banks on a computer as a digit...

And that ddo items are actually representations of non-existent items....

I think the world is done for lol.Yes I just purchased a song off iTunes. Does it exist? Does it have value? Has it got worth? It too just exists on my computer. I guess that is a non-existent item too.

[Postumus]

I like it when people use real world economics, as if they actually pertain to a video game.

The problem? No matter what your currency standard is...the actual value of every item, and every piece of currency in the game is always 0, and will always be 0.

What's not understood is that no matter what digit you see on your screen, every item in the game is actually sold for the same actual worth, and has the same actual worth. Nobody is actually out, anything.

Why people fail to understand this? Because they forget that you cannot escape the fact that we're in the real world, even while playing a game, and we view things the exact same as we would in the real world.


Tell this to all those Chinese gold farmers.

[Gremmlynn]

Back on topic:

The only conclusion I can make, if things actually did go up in price by an order of magnitude with the change, is that items are either not selling now or were selling for less than they could have been before.

[Noctus]

The problem? No matter what your currency standard is...the actual value of every item, and every piece of currency in the game is always 0, and will always be 0.

.....
(some more failure understanding of what effects happen when one person has something another person might also like to posses and under which concession they would part with it)





Nope. You fail Economics.This has been covered before:


"Everything is worth what a purchaser will pay for."
Publilius Syrus (http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Publilius_Syrus/)
(~100 BC)If you are better off with a thing than without it, then it has a worth.
It has zero relevance what it is made of. A 100 dollar bill is also just a strip of colored paper, yet it is clearly worth something. Same with ingame-stuff made out of digital information.

For example, most patents are just "the right to use an idea" - nothing material at all, yet can easily be worth millions of dollars to have the right to use this idea.

[Aaxeyu]

I like it when people use real world economics, as if they actually pertain to a video game.

The problem? No matter what your currency standard is...the actual value of every item, and every piece of currency in the game is always 0, and will always be 0.

If I give 0 for 0, I will always come out with nothing. Therefore, it doesn't matter to me how much 0 I give, or receive, because my end result will always be 0.

Lets say, I'm willing to sell said item for 135,000pp, with an actual worth of 0.

It's nothing for the another guy to say, hey, that just went for 135,000pp, I'm going to try to sell it for 150,000pp. What people do not understand, is he is actually selling the same item, for the exact same worth of 0.

Because our gains and losses will always equal the same amount, it will seem prices are actually inflated. But no matter what stage a game is in, everything is always being sold for the same basic value of 0.

What's not understood is that no matter what digit you see on your screen, every item in the game is actually sold for the same actual worth, and has the same actual worth. Nobody is actually out, anything.

Why people fail to understand this? Because they forget that you cannot escape the fact that we're in the real world, even while playing a game, and we view things the exact same as we would in the real world.



You're problem here is...my money in my bank account does actually exist outside of digital form.



You fail.
You have absolutely no idea of what value is, nor do you know anything about money.

Basic economic principles apply well to virtual economies because there is still DEMAND and SUPPLY.
Saying that everything in game has the same value of 0 is folly.

And no, the money in your bank account will most likely not exist outside of digital form. Not all of it anyways. There are alot more money than bills and coins.

[Pallol_One-Eye]

Tito,

You do realize, as pathetic as it is, that there are still Plat farmers in this game, correct?

These people and their corresponding websites chage a fee, in real life currency, to sell plat/items/etc to people who are too lazy to farm items themselves or buy/trade via Forums/AH, etc.

They exist in almost every MMO out there. You can go to their sites and see the amount of games they will allow transactions in, it is truly mind-boggling.

Some people use them or they would have ceased operations. By that statement, apparently some people in this game DO attach a real world dollar figure to virtual items. For them at least, this game now has more that a "0" value on items.

I obviously don't condone this practice, but it is still ongoing or the sites would simply shut down.

What is your argument to this "known and undisputed fact"?

[Frebby]

Comparing this to real life is unnecessary. DDO items/plat can be valued against each other in terms of supply and demand.

Not only do items have a supply and demand but so does platinum, in a perfect scenario every item would be perfectly priced to be equal to how much time it takes to farm the item(or to get a lucky randomly generated item) versus how long it would take to get said platinum.

Though its definitely not perfect, there's no way to determine supply and demand. Inflation throws everything out of wack, sellers not knowing prices before the pp standard, and something else and I bet theres many more variables of why.

[sacredtheory]

Perhaps it's because it's still early in the morning for me, I have a headache, and haven't had enough coffee...but the only thing crossing my mind right now is...who cares?!

[Chai]

What stamp or coin is in current production and worth hundreds or thousands of dollars to a collector? I want to know, because I will buy up them and make a huge killing lol...

I believe its the indian head penny they forgot to mint the shield on the upper back for - on the run of the first few hundred of them.

Theres also a wheat penny where the wheat got minted upside down for the first few hundred.

If you get one of these, you will never have to work again. If you get more than one, please give me one so that I may retire as well.

[TitoJ]

Look. this has been beat like a dead horse.

Maybe we can just jump to the ddo health care topic, that seems to be falling apart every time I jump on my barb.

[Frebby]

And that ddo items are actually representations of non-existent items....

I think the world is done for lol.


They are very real, I use them all the time in DDO for killing stuff. They exist on turbine's servers as 1's and 0's. Just like platinum, that exists in the same way. The two(items/plat) can be some what easily valued against each other.

[painindaguild]

the problem is the garbage method of filtering money out of the system and the crappy loot system. minimum level 4 weapons do not drop until lvl 12 except named (wich of course are bound) so either u farm on a high level or u auction. farming costs time and isnt avaible to new players.. in that same time u could work. with that money u could just buy that item while having more fun at work (at least i do)

after a certain amount of time there is no need anymore to auction (and i mean buying not selling). only a few named, bound items left that can help u. So money keeps adding up until u have more then u could ever spend. wat do u do with that money? right, get a talk going with the guy that gave u the plat first.

with evryone having more plat nowadays (f2p has also played long enuf to start farming shroud) prices will also go up. I would pay 500k plat for that longsword of pg if i needed it for the simple reason i have it and cant spend it better ways. and i keep getting more... and more.

if they wanted platfarmers gone loot would drop at the appropiate level and plat would decrease over time. but they don't. U might wanna notice most platfarmers are related to the GM's. It's just extra income.

note that i never used a platfarmer myself just imagining why some others do. As a new player definitly worth it for plat/time.

[TitoJ]

They are very real, I use them all the time in DDO for killing stuff. They exist on turbine's servers as 1's and 0's. Just like platinum, that exists in the same way. The two(items/plat) can be some what easily valued against each other.

I can really see how what you said, fits with that quote. Love the idea, love the talent of misconstruing, sorta like a political journalist with a heavy bias.

+1 to you

[Frebby]

I know right, I'm getting pretty good at that.

If you read your first post you can clearly see how I'm deceiving and yet completely serious-like.

[Cholera]

If you are better off with a thing than without it, then it has a worth.

Incorrect, sir. You are missing a step in your process. Belief. If one does not know one has cancer then the notion of cancer treatment will not manifest value as far as that individual is concerned. It is only once the knowledge of need or use enters the picture will that individual apply value.

Of course, they may believe cancer treatment valuable for others and out of compassion value it for others - but for them it remains valueless without the pivotal knowledge of their own condition (it would also be a mistake to believe the third person omniscient narrative here has revealed objective value). In short, value is a form of meaning and all meaning is socially or otherwise constructed. We, as human beings, project value on to things not the other way around.

[Frebby]

If you believe you are better off with a thing than without it, then it has a worth.


Fixed as per previous post.

[Teldurn]

I'm bored and picked the first thread on the general forums to read.

This post was great......

because it says so much without saying a **** thing.

More posts should read like this....clean, plain and having no point. The forums would be a much more enjoyable place to learn about the number 0.

<Elmo voice> This thread brought to you by the number 0, and the letters W, T, and F. </Elmo voice>

[Inkblack]

I love forum debates about value. Hint: there is a reason it is called a demand curve.

Ink

[IronClan]

Also back on topic: On Thelanis Holy Burst of Pure good all sell for about what they did under the GP standard, Metalline Of Pure good, same, Portable black holes ditto (though right when the standard changed someone tried to buy them all up and relist them for 200-250kp I suspect they lost a lot of plat in so doing, as those portable holes sat unsold for over a month) Now CPH actualy sell for LESS then they did before the standard changed...

Now when search was added is a different matter.. I've seen plus stat items sky rocket, and I've seen lots of prices normalize upwards (increase and drift to around the same buyout/ending bid prices) I believe this is the effect of veteran players with lots of plat suddenly willing to look for a lowbie + state item where before they would have had to wade through hundreds of other junk items...

Before to find a + strength random drop item they had to:
Search in rings filter by minimum level the item they want will likely have (such as level 11 for a +5 stat item) then browse all the rings.
Then do the exact same search and browse through necklaces.
Then the exact same thing through bracers
Then the exact same thing through gloves
All the while sifting through all the unrelated items.

Now:
Click all items, put level 11 in the range box and type "ogre" in the search box and hit enter... BAM every single ML11 Ogre Power +5 strength item on the AH (and a few race restricted +6 items), easy peazy... Hit buy on the cheapest one...

The next person who lists one does a quick search and sees the more expensive ones left, lists for slightly less than those but more than the ones that were just purchased; and the price creeps upwards until players are no longer willing to pay the price and the market price normalizes. The bargains also disapear faster and the AH probably has more users due to search... All of which drives prices.

[stille_nacht]

i think the best example of this are the +2 wis helms i saw up for 15k pp >.>, like anybody who actually wants one is going to buy it for that much.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

If it costs too much, I just don't buy it.

Wish everyone else thought that way. :cool:

[bryanmeerkat]

Theres money in game now , item inflation has more to do with Rich Twinkers than the change in currency

[cupajoe]

I would disagree with your take on this. Before the change we used gold as the basis of currency. That, to me, means a gold piece was a dollar. That makes a platinum piece worth ten dollars. So now, to me, we are saying that X costs 10 $10 bills instead of saying it costs $100! To further illustrate my point, we used to have $10 coins (plat), $1 coins (gold), 10 cent coins (silver) and 1 cent coins (copper). Now, if plat is a dollar, we have $1 coins = plat. This means that copper is $0.001 or a tenth of a penny! I feel my currency has been devalued! You want to increase the plat cap? Make the currency based on copper!!!

Also it is very much a flavor thing. Very much like the dice notation being changed (although maybe not as misleading) I want this game to remind me of DnD. I know its not an exact copy but I would like it to remain true where it can. The currency did not need to change. Please change it back.



The change makes sense. Just like I say "That costs 10 dollars" rather than "That costs 1000 cents."

However since we were indeed saying "That costs 1000 cents" before the change (at least in AH), this has had the unintended consequence of gp values being used as pp values instead.

[Doganpc]

I will concede this... My experience is based on one of the newer servers. Perhaps 1yr is too soon for players to have developed a solid sense of value.

BTW the original complaint was that before the switch to plat, I would see items listed at AmountA and after the switch I see similar items listed at AmountA. AmountA is the same # (see I used algebra there) but it means different things because of the scale its referencing. Essentially what i'm saying is on my noob server it sucks that people are entering the same number in their auction house listings.

Dogan
I should have put this on the appropriate server subforum.

[pMagic]

I like it when people use real world economics, as if they actually pertain to a video game.

The problem? No matter what your currency standard is...the actual value of every item, and every piece of currency in the game is always 0, and will always be 0.

If I give 0 for 0, I will always come out with nothing. Therefore, it doesn't matter to me how much 0 I give, or receive, because my end result will always be 0.

Lets say, I'm willing to sell said item for 135,000pp, with an actual worth of 0.

It's nothing for the another guy to say, hey, that just went for 135,000pp, I'm going to try to sell it for 150,000pp. What people do not understand, is he is actually selling the same item, for the exact same worth of 0.

Because our gains and losses will always equal the same amount, it will seem prices are actually inflated. But no matter what stage a game is in, everything is always being sold for the same basic value of 0.

What's not understood is that no matter what digit you see on your screen, every item in the game is actually sold for the same actual worth, and has the same actual worth. Nobody is actually out, anything.

Why people fail to understand this? Because they forget that you cannot escape the fact that we're in the real world, even while playing a game, and we view things the exact same as we would in the real world.

In some cases real world economy does pertain to video games as some have pointed out. What we're seeing in-game is inflation due to the lack of fiscal restraint i.e. the control of the money supply in this case plats and items in general.

The actual value of things in game is not 0. The actual value of in-game items is TIME. The more time you spend playing or farming for some item is the inherent value of that item.

Thus the more time you spend the more plats you'll accumulate and eventually you'll get all the items you want. And hopefully while online your time should be a fun one and that is worth something but not 0.

[Doganpc]

In some cases real world economy does pertain to video games as some have pointed out. What we're seeing in-game is inflation due to the lack of fiscal restraint i.e. the control of the money supply in this case plats and items in general.

The actual value of things in game is not 0. The actual value of in-game items is TIME. The more time you spend playing or farming for some item is the inherent value of that item.

Thus the more time you spend the more plats you'll accumulate and eventually you'll get all the items you want. And hopefully while online your time should be a fun one and that is worth something but not 0.I think the time invested sets the price more than any other factor. Whats the difference between a Sun Blade and a +2 Holy Short Sword of Righteousness? Some DPS, but mostly rarity. You see Sun Blades on the market because few people specialize in short swords and there are better DPS options for those that do. Its really a twink item, being fairly low level but yet its outrageously priced on AH. Supply & Demand is some of that, but I think the rarity causes a perceived time invested for one to drop has more to do with its pricing. *shrug*

Dogan
Hard to think when you're still helf asleep.

[Frodo_Lives]

A lot of the stuff you listed has increased in value for other reasons.

A lot more people are getting close to and/or making epic red dragonscale; therefore, they need more gianthold scales. I've made a couple sets since the conversion, and the prices of black/white scales on my server have nearly doubled since august. (which itself was 2 months after the conversion). The reason for this isn't the currency: its that there's way more people competing with me now than there was then to buy them.

The opposite is true with vale farming: only levelers are doing it and there's so much to do in DDO that I no longer have time to go farm funk/twigs with my caster, even at 8m runs of the quests. So the people who do have time or interest to farm can sell for a lot more, because a lot more players have no time or interest in getting them themselves. Greensteel blanks used to cost 100k plat; they now legitimately trade for a red dragonscale (about 7x that). That isn't the plat transition: its demand vs supply.

Absolutely that some of the price increases are due to supply vs. demand, GS items and dragon scales are just two of the items that have legitimately gone up in price and there is an explaination as to why.

I have noticed that other items have ballooned in price as well, for no apparent reason. I have noticed that there is a lot more vendor trash on the AH for outrageous pricing as well.

There are reasons why specific items have increased in value, and reasons why plat is devalued. But on a whole most things have gotten more expensive, even the junk that no one will buy since the gold to plat conversion.

[Thelmallen]

Don't get distracted by the derails, OP. In my opinion, you are absolutely correct in your original statement. I noticed that occurring the day after the change took place and it still seems to be the case now, many months later. While I agree that there are new things going on in the game that have adjusted the supply/demand dynamics, I think the bottom line prices on some of the old standards simply have not altered in their digit asking price, and thus have become 10x as expensive.

There's no fixing this, the economy of the game simply has adjusted. Annoying for us old-timers, however.

[ProdigalGuru]

I think that ASKING prices have risen, but SELLING prices have remained nearly the same.

The poor notice these changes more than the rich, also.

[suitepotato]

The point everyone seems to be missing is this: the plat piece has replaced the gold piece as the basic unit of measurement of money, but the treasure drops (copper, silver, gold, plat, and vendor-sold loot) are still predicated on the previous gold standard which was 1/10 of the plat.

As a result, more grinding for loot. While I used to be able to reach millions of gold easily, millions of plat, not so much. I still earn at the rate before, which is based on gold, not plat.

1 million plat has become the new 1 million gold, but at loop drop rates, it's 10 million gold. That's all that it is. Multiply any plat price times ten, and you get what you really need to accomplish.

[Doganpc]

Now that i've regained some cognitive ability... Here is my issue with the supply and demand as it applies to DDO. None of the items in DDO are in limited supply. Its not like there is only one forest or one mine that all these things come from. Its a % drop rate. The trick with a % drop rate is that when more people are playing there is more chances for someone to get that drop. I'm not so good with statistics but i'm gonna try to illustrate.

Item drops 1 in 1000, there are 100 people per day playing for this item.. So 100 times that 1:1000 drop rate triggers.
Now, 1,000 people are playing per day for this item. Thats 1000 times the 1:1000 chance happens. At best thats 10x the amount of items available and 10x the amount of people wanting it. Supply & Demand remains the same.

Dogan
Turbine says Sun Blade is worth 3,266 plat. ;)

[donfilibuster]

Um just read the other thread ranting on economy so skipped this one.
Will only say the change was a good convenience, surely more about the simplification than the inflation.
The 10x was really bad when u5 come up but now two updates later it has lessened, yet the damage is done.

[lobode]

I like it when people use real world economics, as if they actually pertain to a video game.

The problem? No matter what your currency standard is...the actual value of every item, and every piece of currency in the game is always 0, and will always be 0.

If I give 0 for 0, I will always come out with nothing. Therefore, it doesn't matter to me how much 0 I give, or receive, because my end result will always be 0.

Lets say, I'm willing to sell said item for 135,000pp, with an actual worth of 0.

It's nothing for the another guy to say, hey, that just went for 135,000pp, I'm going to try to sell it for 150,000pp. What people do not understand, is he is actually selling the same item, for the exact same worth of 0.

Because our gains and losses will always equal the same amount, it will seem prices are actually inflated. But no matter what stage a game is in, everything is always being sold for the same basic value of 0.

What's not understood is that no matter what digit you see on your screen, every item in the game is actually sold for the same actual worth, and has the same actual worth. Nobody is actually out, anything.

Why people fail to understand this? Because they forget that you cannot escape the fact that we're in the real world, even while playing a game, and we view things the exact same as we would in the real world.

Thats a load of **** since people can and do use real money for things in game like the DDO store and buying from plat/item farmers. So get over your its not real B S as it is all part of the real world economy. Plus your argument is like saying that using euros to buy something in a different country isn't real and everything there and all the other money in the world has no actual worth because you live in America and use dollars. Jack A S S


Now back to on topic, it is very lame that they ever changed the AH as overnight every items worth got multiplied by 10. They should have never done that as now the economy is jacked and new people have a hard time getting stuff like metaline of pure good weapons that are trash going for way to much.

[Kominalito]

factors people. in game factors that dont exist in your daily life. they exist and effect pricing. an MMO is an MMO. the stock exchange is a stock exchange. lets not paint them with the same brush anymore. because you cant. they are both barely calculable and mostly random anyway.

[LordPiglet]

Umm a +3 Met longsword of Pg is worth 150k Plat not 150k gold....

I paid less then that for my silver anarchic of pure good and my +4 met of pure good, infact I'm pretty sure I paid less then 150k gold for each of them.

I paid less then 300k each for 2 mopg kopeshes.

The only thing I haven't seen a massive upswing in price in, is green steel crafting ingredients. However, the items are worth, what the market will pay.

[IronClan]

Now that i've regained some cognitive ability... Here is my issue with the supply and demand as it applies to DDO. None of the items in DDO are in limited supply.

I didn't get much past this part... :D

Most items in DDO especially rare ones regardless of how popular or not they are have some availability restriction to some degree which gives them a market value that's more than zero. If 1000 people want to buy those 1 in 1000 items then the demand is outsripping supply and the price goes up to what the highest bidder out of those 1000 people will pay for that 1 item that those 1000 people were able to find. period... full stop.

It matters not at all that the next day 1000 of the player base will find another 1 of them. That one will sell to the next highest bidder out of 999 and any new players who learn of the item (pardon the extreme simplification but the point is there). Eventually the item will stabilize at a point determined by how many people want it, and how many of them are found...

So pure supply and demand.

[ProdigalGuru]

If you do not like the prices, go farm for it yourself...

[IronClan]

factors people. in game factors that dont exist in your daily life. they exist and effect pricing. an MMO is an MMO. the stock exchange is a stock exchange. lets not paint them with the same brush anymore. because you cant. they are both barely calculable and mostly random anyway.

Nothing in DDO is particularly like the stock market... We're talking about economies not speculative trading.

Nothing magical and mystical about economies... they boil down to supply and demand no matter how real or simulated they are.

Now obviously real world economies are far more important, and have far more serious consequences in our lives... but this doesn't mean the vitual ones don't abide by the same exact laws of supply and demand that drive real ones. It just means they don't go bad due to consumer confidence and such, because no one in DDO needs to worry about having enough plat to pay for food if things go bad :)

[samthedagger]

I applauded moving to the plat standard and still believe it was the correct thing to do. I don't think it had anything to do with in-game economics. Rather it had to do with clarity.

In Dungeons & Dragons the standard is gold pieces. Everything has a value stated in gp. When you find a large hoard of money the majority of it is usually gp. Platinum is generally rare and on some occasions even exchanged for gold (at least it has been in some of my campaigns). This makes things clear and concise.

However in DDO, there was for many years a disparity in the way money was presented. Items had their vendor base prices listed in gp. Auctions had their going prices and buy-it-now prices listed in gp. But in contrast, whenever you received a huge lump sum payment for selling to a vendor, all that money was paid to you first in pp. Now sure, the math is simple. Multiply pp by 10 to get the gp price or divide gp by 10 to get the pp price. But everyone who was playing during the era of the "gold standard" has a story about how they lost money on the AH or put something up for sale on the trade channel only to have a buyer offer one tenth the asking price. It wasn't sufficient to say "/trade WTS +1 sword of awesome 10k;" you had to say "/trade WTS +1 sword of awesome 10k pp" or risk being misunderstood by overenthusiastic new players who didn't yet grasp the rules of DDO economics. So the devs did the only reasonable thing. They consolidated everything into the platinum standard. And bravo, devs!

If you don't think an item is worth X pp on the AH, no one ever said you had to buy it. It isn't the fault of the platinum standard for people listing ridiculous prices. In fact I see a rather pleasant stability in prices on Khyber of late, and we Khyberians overprice everything.

[Doganpc]

I didn't get much past this part... :D

Most items in DDO especially rare ones regardless of how popular or not they are have some availability restriction to some degree which gives them a market value that's more than zero. If 1000 people want to buy those 1 in 1000 items then the demand is outsripping supply and the price goes up to what the highest bidder out of those 1000 people will pay for that 1 item that those 1000 people were able to find. period... full stop.

It matters not at all that the next day 1000 of the player base will find another 1 of them. That one will sell to the next highest bidder out of 999 and any new players who learn of the item (pardon the extreme simplification but the point is there). Eventually the item will stabilize at a point determined by how many people want it, and how many of them are found...

So pure supply and demand.Well there's several parts.

A. Its all the new players that drive up demand thus driving up prices...
-- But there are more players generating these items thus driving up supply too. According to supply and demand if the supply increases with the demand the price remains the same, this isn't what I have noticed.

B. None of these virtual things are worth real things...
-- And we're not paying real things for these virtual things, thus its purely a virtual economy.

C. Generic Troll Statement...
-- Yes you exist, nobody really cares and i'm throwing you a bone here.

D. You don't like the price you don't have to pay it...
-- I was wondering more on why the prices are where they are more then why I can't afford them.

E. Economics
-- Are heavily skewed by perception. 2 Economists can look at the same data and draw two different conclusions even opposite ones. To use a real world example, you could look at the down American economy and say that its 1. Stalling out after riding an unsustainable bubble 2. Adjusting to a changing world economy 3. A great time to invest for the eventual recovery... and so on.

Dogan
In short, none of you are wrong, we just all see it different. Viva Conversation!

[Kominalito]

^^this is my point exactly. albeit way, way better than i verbalized. or...textualized.

[Lleren]

I paid less then that for my silver anarchic of pure good and my +4 met of pure good, infact I'm pretty sure I paid less then 150k gold for each of them.

I paid less then 300k each for 2 mopg kopeshes.

The only thing I haven't seen a massive upswing in price in, is green steel crafting ingredients. However, the items are worth, what the market will pay.

I see your first prices are in gold, is your price listing for the khopesh's also in gold? Either way the first set was definately a price I would call a "steal"

How much would you of paid for them? How much would you sell them for? I think those questions are better to figure out the value of an item, and not "I ran into this great sale" price examples. I once bought a Planar gird for 25k Gold... I certainly won't be reselling it for that, if I resell it at all.