Why PVP is important

[DDO_User1]

After playing for a year now, my interest in the game has changed. Now PVP has become much more interesting, because the items that I get for my PVP character have a real tangible effect on my gameplay. Sure, being able to do quests faster is nice, but there is much more interaction with other players when PVP'ing. Facing the same dumbed down mobs in the same quests gets boring, whereas PVP is always exciting and constantly changes based on who you are up against. The interactions within PVP build upon each other and create a whole different type of gameplay that really opened my eyes up to a part of the game that I originally ignored.

I think that having a healthy balance of PVP and PVE is important to an MMO and I hope that the dev's see the need to spend a bit of time improving PVP for the segment of the community that is interested in it.

[flynnjsw]

Yeah...no. Read the "Update 8 No-NO" thread to know why.

[RequiemVampie]

Yeah...no. Read the "Update 8 No-NO" thread to know why.

Yeah, no kidding. Just read that thread. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=285797

I don't need to go into detail here, but h4x might have a new fwiend.

[DDO_User1]

Could you elaborate? I read that thread and still have the same opinion.

[Cernunan]

I think that having a healthy balance of PVP and PVE is important to an MMO and I hope that the dev's see the need to spend a bit of time improving PVP for the segment of the community that is interested in it.

You had my passing dissintrest until here. As a player of 4 years with 2 accounts, who finds the PvE environment one of the best I have ever played of any MMO, I truly hope that the Devs do not considre ANY shape or form of balace for the game between PvE and PvP.
If you enjoy the token PvP system, by all means have fun. The game and its original design was based for group support, that your character is designed to fit a role to support your team against the environment.

That is why there is no balance between clases, it was not meant for such things, and such a thing is inherently impossible with this system.

And that is why people who have supported this game for 4 years like it so much.

If you want a different PvP experience, do not look for it here, do not look to change a game not designed for such things to change from the ground up.
Simply go play a game which was is and will be balanced and designed for such things.

[Carelicoa]

After playing for a year now, my interest in the game has changed. Now PVP has become much more interesting, because the items that I get for my PVP character have a real tangible effect on my gameplay. Sure, being able to do quests faster is nice but there is much more interaction with other players when PVP'ing. Facing the same dumbed down mobs in the same quests gets boring, whereas PVP is always exciting and constantly changes based on who you are up against.The interactions within PVP build upon each other and create a whole different type of gameplay that really opened my eyes up to a part of the game that I originally ignored.

I think that having a healthy balance of PVP and PVE is important to an MMO and I hope that the dev's see the need to spend a bit of time improving PVP for the segment of the community that is interested in it.


Wait, interaction similar to that which one has when grouping with people to beat said mobs, trying new tactics and strategies different from what one uses when soloing?

[DDO_User1]

PVP and PVE are not mutually exclusive, and both areas can be improved without creating balance issues in a PVE environment. I'm not sure why you think that the game would be changed "from the ground up". Is that what you think it requires in order for PVP to be improved upon? I saw someone suggest level-specific PVP arenas - that is a great idea that would not impact PVE whatsoever. There are other examples as well.

[Carelicoa]

There is the argument that any time spent on PvP takes away from the time devs spend on PvE, but it is an old and tired argument.

Instead I look at it like this, a similarly older argument, but a very valid one. I do NOT want this game to turn into a cesspool like WoW. When I check the fora, I see that most of the people supporting PvP are generally guys like h4x and such, who seem to only want to "balance" the characters, and would through that affect PvE play. You run the risk of upsetting a huge player base as well as the entire game when you decide to even change a part of your focus from "having characters that do best when working together" to "having characters whose purpose is to kill each other".
Not only that, but an emphasis on PvP would likely introduce an unsavory element to our game which has so far been limited- the ueber1337 kids who want to do nothing more than be the king of the mountain, with no regards to the actual game. All they want to do is spout flaming, usually misspelled nonsense and be the biggest kid with the best gear so they can brag about it and smack down on lvl 4s who wander into the arena. The same player will then get bored and go questing, only to get completely owned in, let's say, Shan-To-Kor, and then go on a raging rampage because his chara and game knowledge were lacking to perform the duties needed. There is no value to the game added, and a lot of that which I play this game for taken away. I enjoy having a mostly intelligent, erudite, and knowledgeable player base, as well as one that is mature and helpful. I played WoW for a month and it was really horrible. I've been here since the start of this year, and I don't see myself leaving because it is so different from WoW, and because the players are such a better lot.

[justhavinfun]

Still don't see how PvP is important. What do you get from it other than bragging rights for winning, or a reason to cry and scream in the forums for another class to be nerfed because they beat you.

You still have to spend the bulk of your time either soloing or grouping(much better player interaction) to obtain the gear, or the plat to buy the gear so that you can PvP

[protokon]

WHY do people care about pvp so- wait, you almost had me... ;)

[Fishcatch22]

There is the argument that any time spent on PvP takes away from the time devs spend on PvE, but it is an old and tired argument.

Instead I look at it like this, a similarly older argument, but a very valid one. I do NOT want this game to turn into a cesspool like WoW. When I check the fora, I see that most of the people supporting PvP are generally guys like h4x and such, who seem to only want to "balance" the characters, and would through that affect PvE play. You run the risk of upsetting a huge player base as well as the entire game when you decide to even change a part of your focus from "having characters that do best when working together" to "having characters whose purpose is to kill each other".
Not only that, but an emphasis on PvP would likely introduce an unsavory element to our game which has so far been limited- the ueber1337 kids who want to do nothing more than be the king of the mountain, with no regards to the actual game. All they want to do is spout flaming, usually misspelled nonsense and be the biggest kid with the best gear so they can brag about it and smack down on lvl 4s who wander into the arena. The same player will then get bored and go questing, only to get completely owned in, let's say, Shan-To-Kor, and then go on a raging rampage because his chara and game knowledge were lacking to perform the duties needed. There is no value to the game added, and a lot of that which I play this game for taken away. I enjoy having a mostly intelligent, erudite, and knowledgeable player base, as well as one that is mature and helpful. I played WoW for a month and it was really horrible. I've been here since the start of this year, and I don't see myself leaving because it is so different from WoW, and because the players are such a better lot.This. And WoW can be fun if you never interact with anyone but a few close friends you trust... but we all know that's not going to happen. DDO is a refreshing change from WoW-style gameplay. I don;t want to see it become this.

[DMCain]

PvP just needs to be tossed out on it's ear.

Since PvP was introduced to DDO, there has been an unusually high number of class balances (read 'nerf) to appease the minority PvP'ers. D&D, and by extension, DDO is not designed for PvP. The classes and their associated skills/abilities are designed around mutual support and group play.

If you want PvP, go play warcrap, Eve or any of the F2P games that were actually BUILT and designed for PvP.

Just be happy you got your basic tavern brawl in DDO and leave it at that.

[BossOfEarth]

I think several posters have raised an interesting point, that PvP attracts the wrong kind of crowd. Perhaps someone would like to defend the contrary by pointing out an example of a PvP MMO with the right kind of crowd?

[Fishcatch22]

I think several posters have raised an interesting point, that PvP attracts the wrong kind of crowd. Perhaps someone would like to defend the contrary by pointing out an example of a PvP MMO with the right kind of crowd?DFO had some of the most balanced PvP I've seen in any MMO. They didn't exactly have an awesome crowd, but they made the game with PvP and made it with every attempt to balance it. Damage was scaled so that everyone did the same amount of damage with their abilities for the most part (though of course someone who was of a higher level would have access to better skills) and was made lower all-around to prolong the battles, and only a few class specs could heal at all, so people abusing heals to stay alive was rare. Of Course DDO is far from being like that game...

[Spisey]

Welcome to the red box club OP. ;)

[Carelicoa]

I think several posters have raised an interesting point, that PvP attracts the wrong kind of crowd. Perhaps someone would like to defend the contrary by pointing out an example of a PvP MMO with the right kind of crowd?


It would be very hard to, and that is from experience. I have watched my fiance play and have played a number of games whose primary focus was PvP or which had a huge element of PvP. Typically, PvP players are one-uppers. Even in a really bad tank mod of some game my fiance played, the PvP element was always one of one-upmanship. These people always had to do better than everyone else, and not in the healthy sense of just wanting to be better- it often became an obsessive and angry thing where these people seemed to put the value of their lives on how well their toon could kill other toons. If they perchance did NOT kill the other toon, all heck broke loose as a result. My assumption after a few years is that a lot of people- not all, but a lot- who put a lot of emphasis on PvP are typically very emotionally/socially immature, and it makes them feel a lot better about themselves to be able to outdo someone, somewhere, even if it's on an online game.

The problem with that is simply that these people are immature, and their immaturity takes away from the game for the rest of us. Yes, I have wandered into the brawling rooms. Yes, I have met a few PvP players who were civilized and fun, but their emphasis was on the game itself and on PvP as a side diversion when they couldn't find an LFG they liked. The real issue lies with those who play PvP almost exclusively, and who have the aforementioned attitude.

[Devonian]

As others have said PvP should not be important, not due to dev time competition with PvE, but the kind of players it attracts. You inevitably get the ganking lowlife 'not interested in competition, just wants to win' type, and they are inevitably vocal. Very few people want, in any way, the impact on the games community that that kind of person has. Right now, its all basicly friendly, and cooperative, but with more pvp focus, more competition and sour feelings of loss, we loose that.

Frankly things like expected healer duties, and raid loot distribution are acrimonious enough without life or death competition, or some ganking twink picking off lowbies to feel big.

[D-molisher]

I wish they totally erase pvp in DDo:
Remove tavern bravl areas,
that way threads like this would stop appearing.
DDo isn´t about pvp, never will be about pvp > and basicly its there by mistake.

[Tsuarok]

I would assume that devs would (and should) look at the percentage of the player base that PVPs, and allocate a similar percentage of resources at improving that area.

The pits are not fun, iMo, but I'd probably play some pvp version of capture the flag.

Appealing to more players and providing more variety brings more players in and keeps them playing longer. Sounds like a good thing to me.

As a note, PVP and PVE are very different in this game. The balancing of one should have utterly no effect on the other. Different areas can just have different rules.

[Carelicoa]

The pits are not fun, iMo, but I'd probably play some pvp version of capture the flag.

Doesn't DDO already have a thing for that? I am sure at one point in time I was leading a group and saw an option to add party members to team red or team blue, but I never looked into it past that.


Also, please don't just assume all PvP is bad. For DDO, it isn't workable because of the game style. but saying all PvP is evil makes it into something it isn't. PvP itself is neutral, it is the players who make it a bad experience.

[HumanRogue]

I don't PvP very much at all anymore (Haven't even been in the pit for several months) but can say that there are times when I have gone into the pit and had a lot of fun. I even built one of my characters so that he would excel in PvP (And wasn't too shabby at PvE either). I've seen some people here vehemently against PvP because they don't enjoy it and 'don't want any dev time used' on it. It's just for fun and some people enjoy it. If you don't find it fun, you don't have to do it. You don't get any loot, any experience, etc.

However, you can ask yourself, why do you do PvE? It's just for fun too. What do you really get out of gearing out your character? It's just for fun too. Why do people care about cosmetic changes to character's appearances? It's just for fun too. I, for one, don't care what my characters look like (In fact I attempt to make them as ugly as I can), so using the attitude of people that 'don't want any dev time used' on something would apply to cosmetic changes for me, but honestly, if even a small amout of the population likes it, I have no problem with it.

My 2cp.

[HumanRogue]

I wish they totally erase pvp in DDo:
Remove tavern bravl areas,
that way threads like this would stop appearing.
DDo isn´t about pvp, never will be about pvp > and basicly its there by mistake.

I'm glad you know what DDO is all about. And here I thought DDO was about having fun...

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Could you elaborate? I read that thread and still have the same opinion.

PvP attracts the type of player who, according to self admissions made in that thread, have been suspended twice recently for in game misconduct.

That thread was one of many where he suggested changing things, in ways that would be harmful to the PvE game, and which basically amounted to "nerf anything that hurts me in PvP". He demonstrates well that you can't adjust the game for PvP without damaging PvE because just about every suggestion he has would damage PvE.

[Rodasch]

I personally don't care about PvP as long as nothing in the PvE game is "balanced" around PvP whining about x class pwns their face unfairly because of ability y...If you can't beat a certain class, don't pvp them, or build that class to go pvp with if you think they're that awesomesauce. Don't nerf a class in PvE just because you can't beat them.

[loki_3369]

ZOMGZOR HOW DARE YOU SPEAK OF PVP1!1!!!!11!!!!1! PVP SHOULDN'T EXIST1!!!1!!!11!!!!!!1! I SUCK AT PVP SO I'M GOING TO GET ANGRY!!!!111! RAWRZOR!1!!!!11

In all seriousness though, PvP is usually more interesting than grinding the same repetitive quests over and over, imo anyway. Though pvp is broken in DDO, it's still relatively fun for many people and some changes to it can be done without any gigantic impacts on pve.

I don't agree with all the posts screaming "NERF THIS!!!!" or "NERF THAT!!1!" but i also dont support the posts that people make in the forums that make it seem like hell just froze over because someone mentioned a pvp related incident. I don't understand why people opposed to pvp make the posts in the pvp section about how they hate reading threads like this. Pretty sure you don't HAVE to read them (except maybe the recent thread list...) And yes i realize it takes away from the devs focus on pve to work on pvp, but has their focus been that great the past several updates? From the amount of bugs left unfixed and the introduction of many new bugs I'd think not.
While you dont gain anything (virtually?) material from pvp it isn't exactly worthless to many people. You can learn to fight better in pve from pvp in some instances, you can test things, you can pass time in between timers, and many other things my gimped mind is forgetting >.<

Most of the pvpers I've come into contact with haven't been the sort that go on flame wars, and I think it's the immature kids who do go on 5 hour rant sessions that give the pvp community such a bad name. (And there is a very easy solution for flamers.... /squelch add <Insert troll here>)
Profiling ftw? ;)

Just doesn't seem logical to be completely submissive of the pvp community in fear of distracting the devs. Not saying i want DDO to turn into a pvp based game at all because I don't. Personally, I'd rather they mostly keep it the way it is, since they'd most likely find a way to introduce some new bugs ;) Some level seperated instances might be a nice addition though, as would a pvp chat so the people in general dont have to read the crybabies of pvp. Also don't see how additions such as this would be a make or break factor for the immature pvp addicts to choose DDO over wow or eve. There's going to be Bad's everywhere. While pvp may attract more epeen measurer's, it can also attract nonBads. Unlimited squelch lists may be a nice addition too....

I don't know just a thought.
Anyway, each to his own.

[toughguyjoe]

I really do enjoy the idea that some people said this: "You could go and grind repetitive dungeons all day, but at least in PVP the game CHANGES based on fighting different people all the time!"


So here's the major differences:

Monsters: In PvE the monsters have bad AI and run amok and have inflated hit points. In PvP the monsters are all fighters and barbs and the like and the player characters are Arcane archers wizards and sorcerers. PvP has the added bonus that very few people will have more than 1k HP.

Benefits: In PvE you gain gear for your character, platinum to buy supplies guild renown to build up your guild and turbine points through favor, along with the regular benefits of various favor. In PvP you get a swift fireball to the face, a smack on the noggin from a random melee, danced by someone who thinks they're Uber or a slayer arrow up your kiester.

Wait, that sounds like the only difference is that in PvE you actually GAIN something for your toon( and more broadly for your account) Interesting. Why is PvP important again? I mean if its just a group of powered up goons (all players in PvE, Certain classes(specs) in PvP) wiping out another group of less cool goons only with no in game benefit minus a milimeter on your epeen then really, tell me WHY is it important?

[loki_3369]

@Toughguyjoe....

A) There's only so much grinding one can take.

B) Many people participate in pvp to have fun, same reason people participate in pve.

C) After you get all those rewards, what do you plan on doing with them? Grind some more?

We all know how grindtastic DDO is. I don't see why you care if pvp offers any rewards to those who do it. If you don't like doing something, don't do it. It's really that simple. And btw, not all pvpers are the epeen measuring trolls you seem to think they are. Pvp isn't always negative as you make it out to be.

[dogonovo]

Simply put, if the direction of the game goes towards PvP or balance towards it, I will not subscribe to it anymore. For the same money one spends in DDO one can play one of the many PvP-centered games around the market.

As for the balance that people talk about, go look at the already mentioned games that focus on it, and their forums. Some have been around for way longer than DDO, and are still working towards the so-called balance.

There is already PvP in DDO, I dont mind it. Make it a significant part of the game, and I move out.

/not signed

[hecate355]

I have my theory, about all these pvp threads.

Until now and hopefully in near future as well, DDO has been unique, not directly because of lack of pvp. what made DDO unique was its depth of pve, same depth would NOT been there without heavy emphasis on it at development.

After it went f2p, yes Turbine bought quite some years longer life for DDO due to increasing popularity. However nothing comes without a price, as in the past DDO had players who were interested in online game with d&d mechanics and setup.

Dont take my statement wrong, but being more popular also means all these new players who came from other mmo-s intentionally or not intentionally are trying to change ddo into one of those. Mark my words, pvp will not be the only things people ask for. Im quite sure soon we will have whole bucket, including mounts, player housing yada yada, where is my lion to ride in cerulean hills??? yawn what for?

There is nothing wrong in game to be a niche product.

[hecate355]

I am NOT against pvp, i just dont see it happening in ddo, if i wanna pvp for some, i find another game for it.

[Uska]

Pvp is only important to some and not all games need pvp to be viable there are plenty of games that offer it already.

[toughguyjoe]

@Toughguyjoe....

A) There's only so much grinding one can take.

B) Many people participate in pvp to have fun, same reason people participate in pve.

C) After you get all those rewards, what do you plan on doing with them? Grind some more?

We all know how grindtastic DDO is. I don't see why you care if pvp offers any rewards to those who do it. If you don't like doing something, don't do it. It's really that simple. And btw, not all pvpers are the epeen measuring trolls you seem to think they are. Pvp isn't always negative as you make it out to be.

A) Theres only so much jump in, run about shooting fireballs at each other that one can take.

B) Many people participate in PvE for the Fun, AND the People! In PvP Its all about "The Fun!" Which is fine until you realize that in PvP especially, the thousand rotten apples do spoil all the bunches, no matter how many bunches you keep buying, spoil spoil spoil...

C) After you get all those rewards, I dunno I guess instead of use them to run new content you TR! Which admittedly is like going from Grey to Gray.

One problem is that I only made biased comparisons and then asked why PvP is important, and I don't think anyone has answered that question, though if you wanted to ask "Why is PvP not important" this thread becomes informative and well written :)

[Wrendd]

Welcome to the red box club OP. ;)

I sincerley hope that the OP does not get a lot of neg rep for his post. He was polite, open to discussion, and asking a genuine question that he was curious about. IMO, that does NOT deserve neg rep.

I know that it is a loaded topic, and I agree with the majority of posters here, that DDO is not really about PvP and that an increased focus on PvP would be a poor choice for the devs. I am not, have not, and presumeably never will be, a fan of PvP. I have no problem with PvP being included in an MMO, but I think that attempting to balance a primarily PvE game to a PvP standard is a recipe for disaster.

I used to play City of Heroes/Villians. When CoH first came out it was much like DDO, no PvP, everything was cooperative. When they announced that they were working on the expansion "City of Villians" and that CoV would allow PvP between heroes and villians in specific zones made specifically for PvP, a lot of people were very happy. They also added arenas in many zones of CoH to allow heroes to fight each other and adjust many parameters of the fights. It was quite popular for quite a while. When CoV finally came out, PvP was also very popular for a while, but there were many balance issues.

It was quite common for the devs to change an ability/power to be more balanced in PvP and that caused an unexpected "nerf" to be applied to PvE, and if they made a (mostly) positive change to a PvE power then the PvP crowd would complain that the change imbalanced PvP... it was a never ending cycle. Eventually the PvP craze lessend to the point that most of the PvP zones sit unused, with maybe 2-3 people total in the PvP zones.

They even went so far to make changes to classes, gear and powers that ONLY changed when you were in a PvP zone. So "fire blast" might do x+ lvl+ modifiers damage to a mob, but only did x+1/2lvl +2/3modifiers to a player. (that was a gross generalization, but serves to demonstrate my point). They also changed many crowd control durations and effectiveness in PvP. It was a tacit admission that PvP and PvE are vastly different aspects of an MMO that could not be effectively balanced unless it was built into the game from the ground up. And even then it is difficult and not necessarily desired.

More recently, CoX (the combined version) has introduced co-op zones, where the heroes and villians set aside their differences to comabt a common foe. Co-op zones are VERY popular. So popular that the devs have added more and expanded the game to allow "side switching" for the heroes to become villians and vice versa. They realized that the best part of their MMO was working together, not fighting each other.

DDO is in much the same situation as CoH was. The needs of a PvP game are vastly different from the needs of a PvE game. As another poster above me has said, the classes of D&D (and DDO) are NOT balanced against each other, nor should they be (talking "broad strokes" here). A party should be balanced against the expected dangers to be found within a quest or adventure. The PvE game is about a group of people facing monsters and challenges that they must work together to overcome. The PvP game is (mostly) about one character defeating one other character, usually as quickly as possible. A rogue with 400 hp and horrible saves and AC, that could do 1000 points of damage in one sneak attack, every time, with no chance to miss (but could only do that attack once every 2 minutes), would win almost every fight in PvP. That same rogue would probably find himself at a serious disadvantage in a quest that featured 100 low hp mobs that swarmed him.


tl;dr:

Again, I do not mind that PvP is available in the taverns in DDO, but I am opposed to increasing the PvP experience in DDO because I am afraid that it would cause a backlash into the PvE game. DDO has never been billed as a PvP game and I think it should stay that way.

[Vellrad]

I don't think PvP should be really expanded very much, but I also don't think it should be removed from game.
Its fun if you know when, how and how much use it. For me it was always only a time filler if group taken years to fill, or way to check something in my build, or how debuffs stacks. I remember having 2 or 3 fun games at PvP, but it was with my friends 1vs1 deathmatch, not this * tavern brawling.
(Putting party member to sleep in PvP was quite fun IMO :))

[dougnugget]

Personally, I'm happy with the PVP element is as - in other words, restricted to opt-in areas in the tavern only. I don't feel any urge to play PVP at all (if I wanted to do that, I'd break out the xbox and play Virtua Fighter or something) - but I'm happy for those that do, and I can imagine it as a fun way to let off steam now and again.

I am wholeheartedly against anything that lessens the PVE experience in order to improve PVP balance - and I agree with Wrendd and others who say it can lead to a "never-ending cycle". "Balance" is hard to define and even harded to get right, even for PVE-only play (where each class should at least be able to make a meaningful contribution, which is different from making an equal contribution which is what a lot of PVP players demand.)

My previous MMO of note was Guild Wars, which was designed to support PVE and PVP from the beginning, and even they ended up splitting the abillities (a lot of the newer ones are PVE only)

The only place where I see interesting design space for player-against-player interaction is in the realm of "competitive PVE". This already happens informally (for example, best raid completion times or - less constructively -kill count boasting). I wonder if there is any value to having a "competitive raid" where two or more teams start in different corners of the map, and the first to get to the centre wins? I'd find that far more interesting (and in the spirit of old-school "tournament" modules) than just beating up on other characters. Still not sure it would be good idea even then, but I'd at least be willing to give it a try.

Cheers,

- doug

[RequiemVampie]

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww216/MexicanTyrant89/HoverSnail.gif

Nerf that snail!!!:p

[Deaths_ward]

After playing for a year now, my interest in the game has changed. Now PVP has become much more interesting, because the items that I get for my PVP character have a real tangible effect on my gameplay. Sure, being able to do quests faster is nice, but there is much more interaction with other players when PVP'ing. Facing the same dumbed down mobs in the same quests gets boring, whereas PVP is always exciting and constantly changes based on who you are up against. The interactions within PVP build upon each other and create a whole different type of gameplay that really opened my eyes up to a part of the game that I originally ignored.

I think that having a healthy balance of PVP and PVE is important to an MMO and I hope that the dev's see the need to spend a bit of time improving PVP for the segment of the community that is interested in it.

Obviously it's so important you had to make a mule account just to avoid the massive neg rep you knew you'd acquire posting about it, and avoid anyone associating your actual UN with this post. Kudos for not metaphorically having a pair.
I mean, really User1.....how much more obvious could you get with that.

[DDO_User1]

Instead I look at it like this, a similarly older argument, but a very valid one. I do NOT want this game to turn into a cesspool like WoW. When I check the fora, I see that most of the people supporting PvP are generally guys like h4x and such, who seem to only want to "balance" the characters, and would through that affect PvE play.
I see your point, but it may be inaccurate. We simply don't know how much of the playerbase fits into that category. There could very well be an outspoken minority who are like that, with a larger group of people who enjoy PVP but are not as vocal about it. The rest of your argument stems from this potentially faulty assumption.

I scanned through the rest of the thread, but the central argument against improving PVP (adding in a PVP ranking system, splitting out tavern brawling rooms into level-specific areas with opt-in/out, etc) is that it would attract the wrong crowd.

What is ironic about this discussion is that many of the people arguing against PVP in this thread are the ones being rude and obnoxious, not the other way around. There is an "unsavory element" in both groups of people, and it has nothing to do with the content of the game.

[Carelicoa]

I see your point, but it may be inaccurate. We simply don't know how much of the playerbase fits into that category. There could very well be an outspoken minority who are like that, with a larger group of people who enjoy PVP but are not as vocal about it. The rest of your argument stems from this potentially faulty assumption.

I scanned through the rest of the thread, but the central argument against improving PVP (adding in a PVP ranking system, splitting out tavern brawling rooms into level-specific areas with opt-in/out, etc) is that it would attract the wrong crowd.

What is ironic about this discussion is that many of the people arguing against PVP in this thread are the ones being rude and obnoxious, not the other way around. There is an "unsavory element" in both groups of people, and it has nothing to do with the content of the game.


I admit that some of the anti-PvP crowd can be downright rude and mean-spirited, as can the PvP crowd. That does nothing to foster civil discussion, so I try to avoid it. Yes, PvP would attract the wrong crowd, one which is not so easily avoidable as is on the fora. Here one can simply ignore the threads that annoy them, but it is very annoying to be questing around in the harbor and have a bunch of PvP kids squawking at each other in the Lobster. If PvP became a big part of the game and brought in more of those, it would really make questing there at certain times untenable and the ruckus would be hard to avoid. On top of that, it would make actual questing very difficult because of how the game itself would be altered. I grouped once with a guy whose toon was build to level just for PvP. We did a Shan-To-Kor run and he got wiped hard against an ogre. The rest of the quest he was complaining and whining about how hard things were, how ueber1337 he was in the taverns, and how this game was so stupid for making the monsters so powerful. This was against an ogre in STK on hard, not exactly a powerhouse of a monster. It continued for nearly fifteen minutes until the star-holder booted him for being a pain. I know not every person who finds their joy in PvP is like that, but there are enough of them to make me take pause when adding a larger element of PvP is considered. I do think divvying it up by levels would be helpful to some, but I cannot support actually expanding PvP anymore than I could adding mounts, etc.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I sincerley hope that the OP does not get a lot of neg rep for his post. He was polite, open to discussion, and asking a genuine question that he was curious about. IMO, that does NOT deserve neg rep.

I agree. I don't share his opinion but the OP was clear and polite and he opened reasoned discussion. I gave him pos rep myself for his approach. You will be happy to know at this point he has 2 green dots so people didn't react badly.

[Rubiconn]

I have read this thread from start to end a couple of times. I fall into the category of not wanting any pvp period but the impression I get is that pvp is a distraction from the "grind" some folks complain about. Maybe instead of devoting time to doing anything with pvp, which only benefits a very small % of the player base, the devs should work diligently on new different content. Not so much the slack and hack chain quests that we already have, but perhaps a gladiatorial arena quest that drops the players into a pit and they make a choice as a party, last man standing or cooperative strategy to escape. Or an adventure that drops all the players in a different spot and they have to work towards each other and something happens, I dont know. Maybe make a PVP wilderness area, like irestone where players can hunt each other down but make it so that when you enter you are put into a level specific area(kind of like the mabar event), 1-4,5-8,9-12,13-17,18-20. Im not a game developer Im a game player.

My personal feeling is, I came to DDO because there was no emphasis on PVP, it got added, I was ok, I am tired of seeing all the threads by a few different users wanting to change the game to help them in the pits.

[justhavinfun]

Granted I do not PvP and am not even remotely interested in at this time. So, why respond to the PvP threads you may ask.
Silence is the same as acceptance. When threads are posted about PvP the majority of them I have seen involve player classes and abilities being changed because someone cannot seem to win a fight in the PvP arenas. If the non-PvP crowd were to sit back and say nothing there is a very good chance that the devs would see these ideas and respond by implementing them if no opposition is voiced. I enjoy my characters the way they are and the only changes I would like to see made to them are ones that improve them.
The abilities in DnD were created with the idea of groups of players using their abilities in unison to overcome their foes not to destroy each other. I agree with all the post that if your goal in your gaming life is to be the most dominate character in the game and able to destroy everyone else there are other games out there that cater to this mentality. If you enjoy grouping and achieving the goals set forth in the game then DDO is for you.

[nanobot1994]

PvP attracts the type of player who, according to self admissions made in that thread, have been suspended twice recently for in game misconduct.

That thread was one of many where he suggested changing things, in ways that would be harmful to the PvE game, and which basically amounted to "nerf anything that hurts me in PvP". He demonstrates well that you can't adjust the game for PvP without damaging PvE because just about every suggestion he has would damage PvE.

Are you saying every PvPer is like that? Im sure Ive met quite a bit of idiots while questing too. Doesnt mean everyone who quests is an idiot does it?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Are you saying every PvPer is like that? Im sure Ive met quite a bit of idiots while questing too. Doesnt mean everyone who quests is an idiot does it?

I never said that.

Everything is based on averages, and on average I've seen more of that from PvPers and in PvP focussed games.


Oh god....

Just so no one gets me confused for this guy. Hes Dispel I'm Arecane. Saying this because his lv and spell are exactly mine, cept I don't make a fail thread a day...

Seriously, H4X. Just quit talking about pvp, if its removed, you killed it for everyone whos perfectly fine with pvp as it is.

See that's the issue... I had never seen such anti-PvP hate until he came around spewing his "suggestions" that are you put them are daily fail threads and talking his "game" that made me pretty confident he wasn't in highschool yet. We don't need more of this, we don't want more of this, its bad for the game community and the gameplay.

[flynnjsw]

Are you saying every PvPer is like that? Im sure Ive met quite a bit of idiots while questing too. Doesnt mean everyone who quests is an idiot does it?

You create more PvP, you create more H4X/Dispel. One is enough.

[Stormanne]

I have a few ideas. Some are poached and regurgitated from other posters.

Break the brawling pits up based on level. It would take minimal programming as opposed to some of the other suggestions. The only people this negatively affects are those that get a kick out of ganking player characters that are five or more levels lower (ie, the wrong kind of players).

Even though I do not PvP, it is a rather bland feature in DDO, even if it is an afterthought. In the PvP arena matches (does anyone actually use these?) make all the spells and skills work appropriately. Also, add more environments for the arenas.

And, finally. Make PvP a VIP only perk. Not available in the DDO store. Make it so that if players actually want to challenge and fight other players and have Turbine make and maintain PvP related changes to the game, they have to be willing to pay for that privilege in a sustaining manner. These changes would be long term and if the players want them, they should be willing to pay for them long term.

[Khanyth]

I've never Pvp'd, but I've always seen it as:

1. high level chars beating up on low lvl chars
2. something that fulfills a niche market
3. something that certain people do and if you want to do it, fine.

I agree with the segregation by level idea similar to the Mabar event.

other than that, devs really shouldn't waste their time on it

[Devonian]

And, finally. Make PvP a VIP only perk. Not available in the DDO store. Make it so that if players actually want to challenge and fight other players and have Turbine make and maintain PvP related changes to the game, they have to be willing to pay for that privilege in a sustaining manner. These changes would be long term and if the players want them, they should be willing to pay for them long term.

Bad idea. Baaaaad idea. We explicitly do not want Hax and his phylum gaining the sense of entitlement that would arise from this.

That said, I do think that if it was done right, it may have something to offer. If you based it on the Team Fortress dynanic of teamed, class based pvp there could be something there. Was it a direction the Devs wished to explore.

But only if any pvp centric balance changes were fixed to have no pve impact. though as this would basicly amunt to 2 paralell games, its too huge an endevor to try.

[flynnjsw]

IMO, if you are going to separate it by level, instead of trying to do it per instance per tavern, just make it so only certain levels can PvP in certain Taverns. For example;

Wayward Lobster 1-5
Phoenix 6-10
Drowning Sorrows 11-15
Bogwater Tavern 16-20

[Stormanne]

Bad idea. Baaaaad idea. We explicitly do not want Hax and his phylum gaining the sense of entitlement that would arise from this.

I don't think they would develop any more of a sense of entitlement than what the other VIP's have. Bad ideas are still going to be bad ideas and will be judged as such by the community at large.

As it is, and h4x is my primary example and should not be mistaken for the PvP community as a whole, the players that are like h4x are trying to get the most out of the game for the least amount of money possible and are not usually willing to subscribe. If the driving focus of the game for them is PvP, whereas the community at large focuses on PvE, and that focus were to be made into a VIP only perk; they would either have to pay for the service or leave. In other words, they want the game changed in their favor, but do not wish to pay for it. My idea makes them put their money where their mouth is. And it makes them do so in a sustaining manner that would at least coincide with the longevity of the changes they wish made.

[loki_3369]

Frankly, pvp isn't important. However, it is found enjoyable to some. As I've said before I don't want ddo to become a pvp based game, but I still find it ridiculous that everyone starts whining the second anything about pvp is discussed. There's much more posts of loot "ninja's" that are worse than alot of the pvp threads. All those "ninja looter" posts have caused change, but directly affects pve.

The pvp threads may have a small impact on some nerfs, but i think it's quite naive to blame them for all, or even most, of the recent nerfs. I seriously doubt the ToD "nerf" was directly caused from pvp. It's not as if it was only unbalanced in pvp. 500 points of pierce damage, unaffected by dr, every 15 seconds seems very balanced for pve doesn't it? (Sarcasm.) People will whine to not balance <debated subject here> all the time, usually because they have a character that uses said subject all the time and their builds use it as a crutch. I'd hate to turn this into another one of those ToD nerf threads, but it seems to be a good example to me.

While there may be more trolls in pvp, I've personally come across the same amount, if not more, in pve. There is only two or three pvpers that I can't stand, whereas the pve list goes well beyond that.

Bads are everywhere. Pvp isn't all negative. It isn't always higher levels picking on lower levels, it isn't always cheap tactics, it isn't always ub3r 1337 people trash talking all the time. I don't deny that those things take place, but I've seen the same attitude in pve. High levels telling lower levels they're noobs because they don't know something, anyone who is highly geared declining someone based off of myddo, telling people they're an idiot because they don't know how to run something on their first try. Should I start classifying all that participate in pve as Bads based on the many I've encountered? Stereotyping a group of people based off of the minority of them you've come into contact with doesn't get you anywhere, and is the path of ignorance.

And yes, some people do pve for the people, but there are also people in pvp (Yes, I said there ARE nonBads in pvp) :)

It's the Bads of pvp that keep posting the "nerf this" or "nerf that" threads that are going to ruin pvp for those who enjoy it as it is. I wouldn't say pvp is important, but I also wouldn't classify it as completely unimportant. Sure, it isn't a pvp based game, and it's better off that way. But if people find pvp enjoyable, why ***** and moan about it. You don't have to participate in pvp. You don't have to listen to people troll. /squelch add ____ is your friend.

[AyumiAmakusa]

It's not important in this game specifically.

Other games, yes.

This game, no.

[Zonefire]

I never found PvP to be important but some people do enjoy it. However, real pain comes from when people complain that you used a good move to kill me. Some friends of mine who like to pvp would use the monk ToD before it was nerfed. An entire guild tried to blacklist there guild cause they said they were beating up lowbies. Its PvP arena. If you step in and are a low level, be prepared to get ganked.

Now ToD got nerfed and now I have to listen to so many darkside monks complain about it, saying it ruined it for them in PvE.

It is impossible to balance PvP and PvE so really they shouldn't even try. Instead if people want to PvP, make a char designed to PvP. Its not that hard.

[Pape_27]

Though pvp is broken in DDO, it's still relatively fun for many people and some changes to it can be done without any gigantic impacts on pve.



See, here's the thing though. PvP in DDO isnt broken. It's WAI.

PvP at best is a momentary distraction. People use the pvp pits for many different reasons. Some want to see how their new gear works. Some want to test new spells, some want to test saves and tolerances, some want to see if they are better than other players in the game.

I would say, in DDO, more that any other game, PvP is truely a challenge of skill, strategy and tactics. Why? because in the other games, the playing field is leveled. Its a race for gear, thats about it. Get Item A to stop Item B's effects. In DDO, you know that there are strengths and weakenesses to each class. Its up to you to figure out how to exploit them.

Instead, what happens? People who aren't used to such a system cry foul, saying its broken and needs to be fixed. So instead of focusing on becoming better, they become the Boys Who Cry Wolf. Change this, nerf that, why? because thats how they did it in WoW etc.

So, No, pvp in ddo isnt broken. Its working as intended.


_

[wax_on_wax_off]

You had my passing dissintrest until here. As a player of 4 years with 2 accounts, who finds the PvE environment one of the best I have ever played of any MMO, I truly hope that the Devs do not considre ANY shape or form of balace for the game between PvE and PvP.
If you enjoy the token PvP system, by all means have fun. The game and its original design was based for group support, that your character is designed to fit a role to support your team against the environment.

That is why there is no balance between clases, it was not meant for such things, and such a thing is inherently impossible with this system.

And that is why people who have supported this game for 4 years like it so much.

If you want a different PvP experience, do not look for it here, do not look to change a game not designed for such things to change from the ground up.
Simply go play a game which was is and will be balanced and designed for such things.

I love group play, why can't some PVP arenas that are designed for group play be implemented? I think having a king of the hill or capture the flag map available would be awesome fun to get a bunch of guildies to play. It would be PVP but it would be what is described here as the original intent of the game: "group support".

[gurgar78]

Why PVP is Important:

It allows us to quickly and accurately add names to our DNG list? =P

[Chai]

Sure, being able to do quests faster is nice, but there is much more interaction with other players when PVP'ing.

If by "more interaction" you mean it takes less than 10 seconds to die, then it takes upwards of 45 minutes to argue about how cheap the kill was in general area wide chat, complete with insults and fingerpointing, then yes, PVP is by far more interactive than PVE.

Meanwhile, in other news, general chat in the harbor is worse than reality TV. Those of us trying to post a few auctions before work can browse it for a few minutes and have a very clear understanding why most experienced players in this game could care less if PVP just shriveled up and disappeared.

Its not the PVP itself we dont like, its this "interaction" thing you speak of, which is better defined as a dingus waving contest.

Tavern brawls on boats FTW. :D

[Notajedi]

Pvppffffffffffftttttttttttttttttttttt.

But if you enjoy it, more power to you.

You gain no favor.
You gain no loot.
You gain no guild reputation.
You gain no EXP.

You do gain notoriety of a sort.

PVP is not what I am interested in.

[Chai]

I love group play, why can't some PVP arenas that are designed for group play be implemented? I think having a king of the hill or capture the flag map available would be awesome fun to get a bunch of guildies to play. It would be PVP but it would be what is described here as the original intent of the game: "group support".

If we can have capture the flag like it is in WOW, where you can only talk to your team but not the other team, then its a deal. I like cap the flag too, but one session of cap the flag followed by 2 hours of crying about the other teams tactics isnt my style. PVP needs its own channel system where players are only allowed to talk to their team only, and this needs to be separate from general chat.

[PopeJual]

If we can have capture the flag like it is in WOW, where you can only talk to your team but not the other team, then its a deal. I like cap the flag too, but one session of cap the flag followed by 2 hours of crying about the other teams tactics isnt my style.

But but but... you used tactics and strategies! That's cheating! You're not supposed to engage in effective actions while playing a game! You just run at each other and yell PEW PEW PEW.

Anything else is just exploiting.

[Ainimache]

Granted I do not PvP and am not even remotely interested in at this time. So, why respond to the PvP threads you may ask.
Silence is the same as acceptance. When threads are posted about PvP the majority of them I have seen involve player classes and abilities being changed because someone cannot seem to win a fight in the PvP arenas. If the non-PvP crowd were to sit back and say nothing there is a very good chance that the devs would see these ideas and respond by implementing them if no opposition is voiced. I enjoy my characters the way they are and the only changes I would like to see made to them are ones that improve them.
The abilities in DnD were created with the idea of groups of players using their abilities in unison to overcome their foes not to destroy each other. I agree with all the post that if your goal in your gaming life is to be the most dominate character in the game and able to destroy everyone else there are other games out there that cater to this mentality. If you enjoy grouping and achieving the goals set forth in the game then DDO is for you.


Personally, I'm happy with the PVP element is as - in other words, restricted to opt-in areas in the tavern only. I don't feel any urge to play PVP at all (if I wanted to do that, I'd break out the xbox and play Virtua Fighter or something) - but I'm happy for those that do, and I can imagine it as a fun way to let off steam now and again.

I am wholeheartedly against anything that lessens the PVE experience in order to improve PVP balance - and I agree with Wrendd and others who say it can lead to a "never-ending cycle". "Balance" is hard to define and even harded to get right, even for PVE-only play (where each class should at least be able to make a meaningful contribution, which is different from making an equal contribution which is what a lot of PVP players demand.)

My previous MMO of note was Guild Wars, which was designed to support PVE and PVP from the beginning, and even they ended up splitting the abillities (a lot of the newer ones are PVE only)

The only place where I see interesting design space for player-against-player interaction is in the realm of "competitive PVE". This already happens informally (for example, best raid completion times or - less constructively -kill count boasting). I wonder if there is any value to having a "competitive raid" where two or more teams start in different corners of the map, and the first to get to the centre wins? I'd find that far more interesting (and in the spirit of old-school "tournament" modules) than just beating up on other characters. Still not sure it would be good idea even then, but I'd at least be willing to give it a try.

Cheers,

- doug


See, here's the thing though. PvP in DDO isnt broken. It's WAI.

PvP at best is a momentary distraction. People use the pvp pits for many different reasons. Some want to see how their new gear works. Some want to test new spells, some want to test saves and tolerances, some want to see if they are better than other players in the game.

I would say, in DDO, more that any other game, PvP is truely a challenge of skill, strategy and tactics. Why? because in the other games, the playing field is leveled. Its a race for gear, thats about it. Get Item A to stop Item B's effects. In DDO, you know that there are strengths and weakenesses to each class. Its up to you to figure out how to exploit them.

Instead, what happens? People who aren't used to such a system cry foul, saying its broken and needs to be fixed. So instead of focusing on becoming better, they become the Boys Who Cry Wolf. Change this, nerf that, why? because thats how they did it in WoW etc.

So, No, pvp in ddo isnt broken. Its working as intended.


All three quoted for basically saying how I feel. I don't care about PvP. I sure don't want any developer time "wasted" (from my selfish point of view) on it.

I respond to this thread (and some others like it) because I don't want my silence to be mistaken for agreement. I don't want the devs/mods to read threads like this and, because no one objects to the suggestions, assume that the playerbase in general wants more PvP.

It's DDO, which is based on DnD, which is not and never was intended to be player versus player. That's why the games melee and wizard came out. They were for people who wanted to fight one another. DnD was for people who wanted to work together toward a common goal.

So, any changes that can be made that won't affect PvE AT ALL, sure, go ahead. But anything that would "improve" PvP but would change the PvE game - NO, absolutely not. Please no.

[loki_3369]

I give up. I'm apparently too dumb to make my point and this thread will continue to be naive con PvP people saying how horrible PvP is for the game while the also naive pro PvP people saying it is good for the game. I pvp. i enjoy it usually. But it is unimportant in this game. It is not an area of focus the devs should be concentrated on. I fail to remember the person who suggested this, but maybe instead of working on pvp they should release new content, maybe some new content above level 10. New raids above level 10. A lowbie pack with epic difficulty doesn't exactly cut it.

[hityawithastick]

Don't throw out PvP. Don't change it. Ignore it. PvP is fun just the way it is, and there's a certain charm and realism to it. In a real gladiatorial arena, things would work exactly the same way--magicians would dominate sword-wielders, and archers would dominate magicians, and the incredibly powerful, epically geared wizards would walk in and mop up the entire crowd.

[Vellrad]

I love group play, why can't some PVP arenas that are designed for group play be implemented? I think having a king of the hill or capture the flag map available would be awesome fun to get a bunch of guildies to play. It would be PVP but it would be what is described here as the original intent of the game: "group support".

Why people want added team vs team and CTF to game, where it is present already?

[shortdevils]

I don't think pvp should be removed but I don't think pvp should be Improved upon either. If it becomes worth doing then balancing issues become involved but then again sometimes I need something to do at the side. Slayers are incredibly boring and this game doesn't real have anything to keep u busy other than questing.
When I hit the level cap., questing becomes more of a grind. I am doing either for favor, the challenge or loot I don't actually need. So sometimes I just need to pull out and do something casual.
Pvp allows me to do that.
What i do think is that this game needs more "side attractions" like the events but one that's always running. Something to do when not questing.

[lazyninja81]

Don't throw out PvP. Don't change it. Ignore it. PvP is fun just the way it is, and there's a certain charm and realism to it. In a real gladiatorial arena, things would work exactly the same way--magicians would dominate sword-wielders, and archers would dominate magicians, and the incredibly powerful, epically geared wizards would walk in and mop up the entire crowd.

I like the logic.

+1

[Geodude07]

As much as I love the concept of pvp and everything that comes with it, this game would be harmed greatly by a more intensive application of it.

Forum posts like "X spell is way too powerful!" would spam the threads in fact it would be like this "X item/effect/spell/weapon/class/epic item is too good nerf bat it!" and we would lose sight of what a lot of people play DDO for...Yes people do like PVP and yes PVP can be great in many games and will add to the experience provided there are rewards and goodies to be had for it as well as rational reasons and set ups for it.

A game like Warhammer online is well suited for pvp and there are maps and objectives and goodies for battle. Here people want to quest with one another, work together to take down dungeons and so forth. Many players love that aspect of the game, they love new adventures, gear and classes and races to explore.The game was designed for those players and that idea.

The classes are balanced against all the baddies outside, but not against each other. We do not have crazy saves and hp like monsters in harder quests, and that is why you will get fried by casters etc. To balance it would be to have to re-write an entire game and to hear constant cries of OP! OP! OP! from the masses

This is not the game for someone looking for a pvp heavy or even a competent pvp system for this reason


People also fear PVP as it can attract some of the more annoying users, such as those that only make nerfing threads (remember/still play WoW?) and probably many other flavors of people that wouldnt fit into the rest of the picture that is DDO. I personally dont mind those threads (simply ignore them or read them for a chuckle) but a lot of people dont want to see that. A lot of people dont want to see the hotheaded 14 year old who curses you out for beating them, chases you around and spams you with tells or sends annoying mail to you and tarnishes your name ( or even guild) on the forums or reports you out of spite

As it stands PVP is what it should be, a simple little area where you can hit each other and goof around knowing it does not reflect your skill, knowing that it gives nothing and knowing that it is there just for that side purpose.

[sgtcatfish]

As someone who reads these pvp posts simply for entertainment value I have come to a realization let me share.

I figure that threads similar to this by H4x and a few others are an attempt to fulfill their need for pvp since they cant find it in game (without cries for NERFS cause I lost) they come to the forums and start pvp related threads to fulfill their pvp needs. THEY ARE PVP'ING YOU ON THE FORUMS SINCE THEY CANT DO IT IN GAME. People like H4x make posts like these to get a reaction from others its the same reason they camp the arenas to kill lowbies it gives them self satisfaction, stop feeding into it post your opposition or your support and move on.

Along with most of the DDO community i came here for the lack of pvp its true, now i have seen a few good system of pvp implemented such as in Star War Galaxies witch I played for 3+years (before CU of course), I also like like the pvp system here in DDO as others have said its WAI, its an after thought, the game alone stands on it own merit without pandering to the e-peen waver crowd and I never want it to change.

So while I agree that pvp can be fun at times if those times are based on the players want and not forced upon the player as in so many MMO's out there. I feel DDO has done it in the best way possible for the way the game is meant to be witch is and has always been (since based off table top D@D) PLAYER VS ENVIRONMENT.

[BitkaCK2]

Y'know... I was just saying to myself, "Self, there aren't enough threads about improving PvP in DDO."

oi

On another note, this:

Don't throw out PvP. Don't change it. Ignore it. PvP is fun just the way it is, and there's a certain charm and realism to it. In a real gladiatorial arena, things would work exactly the same way--magicians would dominate sword-wielders, and archers would dominate magicians, and the incredibly powerful, epically geared wizards would walk in and mop up the entire crowd.
pretty much describes the rock, scissors, paper that is PvP.

Rock will always brag about destroying scissors while screaming to nerf paper. Scissors will always brag about destroying paper while screaming to nerf rock. Paper will always brag about destroying rock while screaming to nerf scissors. See? It's already perfectly balanced. Everyone gets someone to destroy and someone to complain about. Perfect already, working as intended, nothing to see... move along.

bitkaCK2

[JollySwagMan]

PVP is not important in DDO.

As others have mentioned, the classes are not designed with PVP in mind.

H4X's threads have helped to promote a stereotype of PVP players who whine incessantly.

The presumption seems to be that if threads such as 'Nerf Slayer Arrows'/'Nerf Drow SR' etc. did not meet vehement opposition, that the developers would implement these adjustments, to the detriment of the PVE game.

That's fair enough in my books - I don't want my PVE experience to suffer for the sake of PVP balancing.


However, that does not rule out competitive PVE/PVP developments entirely. I noticed one suggestion in particular that I think would be beneficial to PVP in DDO:


IMO, if you are going to separate it by level, instead of trying to do it per instance per tavern, just make it so only certain levels can PvP in certain Taverns. For example;

Wayward Lobster 1-5
Phoenix 6-10
Drowning Sorrows 11-15
Bogwater Tavern 16-20

This would be of no impact to the PVE game, and would help to eliminate the "Oh this guy has so many buffs I can't see what level they are" element of PVP that exists currently.

I believe another poster suggested quests where two groups of players would compete towards a common goal. (I would guess with some sort of loot/xp incentive for the group that wins.) That sounds interesting.

I'd also be interested to see some PVP maps where traps could be deployed, pockets can be picked, golems could be controlled via remote stations, battles aboard ships/airships, explosive barrels/cows/halflings being flung by catapults etc. But that's a bit much really, and I would much prefer bugfixes to the development of such content.

So, the only suggestion to PVP that I'd really stick with would be that of splitting up the level groups (doing this by Tavern seems like a good way). This doesn't account for gear/buffs/other advantages that some players may have even with a level restriction, and it's no guarantee of good sportsmanship. But it would help a little, and would be a minimal adjustment.

[Devonian]

On the thread of cooperative, sided pvp, I posted a suggestion on that very matter a ways back.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=251018

For the consideration of those interested.

[hityawithastick]

Rock will always brag about destroying scissors while screaming to nerf paper. Scissors will always brag about destroying paper while screaming to nerf rock. Paper will always brag about destroying rock while screaming to nerf scissors. See? It's already perfectly balanced. Everyone gets someone to destroy and someone to complain about. Perfect already, working as intended, nothing to see... move along.




This. This times infinity. LISTEN TO THIS POST DEVS. :D