expectations of a rogue for epics

[neclon]

Hey all. Before I get to 20 and go clicking join on any epic pugs (I'm 19 holding back a lvl til my friend catches up), I want to make sure I have the expectations covered. I had my experience failing traps at lvl 10 because I assumed I wouldnt need to shop for gear since I was a rogue and had my skill maxed, and don't feel like doing that on epics.

Aside from the people who just don't want a rogue in the group at all (please don't hijack the thread, if you dont want rogues in your LFM I'll see that if you remove them from the grp list... usually... sometimes I see grps cuz of my 1 fighter): what are your expectations of a rogue joining a epic LFM? I have mostly gear that can be bought other than dragontouched (no greensteel yet).

I have the more obvious things I'm working with: keeping my HP up (at just over 300 now), good DD, Search, Spot, heavy fort, subtle stabbing, carrying scrolls to UMD such as raise dead if the healer bites it and I'm still up. Pit/devil beaters (metalline of pure good).

[PopeJual]

The best advice that I can give is to follow directions once you get into a quest and try not to die too often.

It's okay if you don't contribute very much to the party since you're new to Epics as long as the people in the group knew that going in and as long as you don't actively drag the party down.

If there's a big swarm of bad guys, don't stand in the middle of it.

When you see blue rings around something or stars spinning around something's head, beat on it.

The biggest change from normal quests to Epic is just knowing that the monsters hit harder, have a gajillion HP and are immune to instant-kill effects. That requires a change in tactics more than an upgrade in gear (although the upgrade in gear is also worthwhile).

[Royalties]

Looks like you have everything you need to be a solid rogue, the only thing I would suggest is working on your HP a bit but seeing as you're a rogue that's sort of a challenge unless you nerfed some of your other stats for con. I usually love rogues in my parties though, they're awesome dps and usually a well played rogue doesn't need more than 300ish hit points if they're hitting diplomacy and utilizing their sneak attacks. Why don't you just try joining an epic run and see what the expectations are? Partycrashers is a good one for you, or even Big Top and The Snitch.

[bendover]

Biggest thing is to stay with the other melees. Follow around the one that is putting any mobs in auto-crit. Examples would be a monk stunning everything. A fighter stunning stuff. Someone using TWF triple earth weapons. The more mobs you are critting the more often the more dps you're going to do the quickier and easier it makes the quest.

Also 100% fort and 400+ hp for your rogue please!

[AMDarkwolf]

400 hp on rog with no greensteel is a BIG thing to ask.

350 hp on rog is plenty for the most part. hes not tanking and hes not eating spells first hand.

[bendover]

400 hp on rog with no greensteel is a BIG thing to ask.

350 hp on rog is plenty for the most part. hes not tanking and hes not eating spells first hand.

Every extra HP he can get is better. When you've got mobs hitting for 50-80 points of damage per hit that leaves him at about 6 hits (at 350) and he's done. In epics with someone stunning a STR based rogue is going to out dps the rest of the field and if that mob gets free he's turning on the rogue.

[AMDarkwolf]

yes, true, but myself playing one of those str based rogs, when the mob turns on you, you learn to put that mob on the other side of a melee, find a way to avoid the dmg, and put your tools to use elsewhere.

low hp is a rog's setback, we live with that, learn to work around it, even in epics.

Having 800 hp but not much else will die just the same, maybe in 10 hits instead of 5, but u still die. Its a group effort(more so with epics than any other diff setting) and you learn when to apply your skills and when to rely on another.

[bendover]

yes, true, but myself playing one of those str based rogs, when the mob turns on you, you learn to put that mob on the other side of a melee, find a way to avoid the dmg, and put your tools to use elsewhere.

low hp is a rog's setback, we live with that, learn to work around it, even in epics.

Having 800 hp but not much else will die just the same, maybe in 10 hits instead of 5, but u still die. Its a group effort(more so with epics than any other diff setting) and you learn when to apply your skills and when to rely on another.

I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that my 477 hp Rogue will die more then that 850 hp Barbarian :(.

[Royalties]

I agree, but that doesn't change the fact that my 477 hp Rogue will die more then that 850 hp Barbarian :(.

Don't suck and you won't die. You're not suppose to be hit as a rogue. Diplomacy + radience and aggro management, learn to use it. The only reason you should die is because you have no crowd control or you're not a good rogue.

[Consumer]

Every extra HP he can get is better. When you've got mobs hitting for 50-80 points of damage per hit that leaves him at about 6 hits (at 350) and he's done. In epics with someone stunning a STR based rogue is going to out dps the rest of the field and if that mob gets free he's turning on the rogue.

Incorrect, due to the fact that SA is not multiplied on a crit, in a group with stunning blow or hold monster the Rogue will in fact be doing the least DPS out of the melee toons. The Rogue also has lower to hit with picks (no proficiency and only +4 max (Halfling) from enhancements)further reducing his advantage when a mob isn't auto crit.

[bendover]

Don't suck and you won't die. You're not suppose to be hit as a rogue. Diplomacy + radience and aggro management, learn to use it. The only reason you should die is because you have no crowd control or you're not a good rogue.

Wow, I run alot of epic devils assault with my rogue. And all it takes is a couple of devils not being controlled with a couple of cleaves and t hey take people out. And for your information my rogue has radiance, and earth grab guards. Don't come here insulting someone you have no idea who you're talking too.

[bendover]

Incorrect, due to the fact that SA is not multiplied on a crit, in a group with stunning blow or hold monster the Rogue will in fact be doing the least DPS out of the melee toons. The Rogue also has lower to hit with picks (no proficiency and only +4 max (Halfling) from enhancements)further reducing his advantage when a mob isn't auto crit.

Disagree. It really depends on your group and your rogue. A str based rogue with heavy picks on an auto-crit mob will probably only be behind a Frenzied Beserker.

[Royalties]

Wow, I run alot of epic devils assault with my rogue. And all it takes is a couple of devils not being controlled with a couple of cleaves and t hey take people out. And for your information my rogue has radiance, and earth grab guards. Don't come here insulting someone you have no idea who you're talking too.

Learn to use diplomacy?

[bendover]

Learn to use diplomacy?

Absolutely not. Agro management in end game is the most important you can possibly have. I'm not going to diplo cleaving devils onto the rest of the party that's stupid. I invested into intimidate for moments when someone else cannot provide agro management. Again before you come in here insulting people you should know who and what you're talking about.

[Royalties]

Absolutely not. Agro management in end game is the most important you can possibly have. I'm not going to diplo cleaving devils onto the rest of the party that's stupid. I invested into intimidate for moments when someone else cannot provide agro management. Again before you come in here insulting people you should know who and what you're talking about.

Oh i get it, so the two seconds that you have aggro is really going to save the party. Gosh why didn't I think of that. *Smacks forehead*

[Consumer]

Disagree. It really depends on your group and your rogue. A str based rogue with heavy picks on an auto-crit mob will probably only be behind a Frenzied Beserker.

It's not a matter of disagree, it's a matter of fact.

Autocrit DPS is determined by 3 main things.

Your attack speed, your crit multiplier and your damage that is multipliable on a crit.

Of course you naively picked out the FB as being the best even with its low attack speed and limited source of multipliable damage.

A Rogue attack speed although good with haste boost IV is still only equal to that of a 12/6/2. However because almost all of a Rogues damage is coming from sneak attacks not much damage is multiplied by the *4 multiplier.

Take a str based Halfling Rogue (1375.5 DPS):

4.5 GS Heavy Pick
5 weapon modifier
15 str (40 str)
5 PA
2 hobgoblin
2 Shintao
9 Bard
1 Prayer
= 43.5 damage

Compare this to the Blitz (also has 4 extra haste boosts) (1552.01 DPS):

4.5 GS Heavy Pick
5 weapon modifier
28 str (66 str)
10 PA
2 hobgoblin
2 Shintao
4 claw set
9 Bard
1 Prayer
1 mastery
2 kensei
4 specialization
= 72.5 damage



However once you start including the max DPS Half Orc Rogue things do get closer as the Rogue now has 3 PA, 6 more str and extra haste boosts. Going HO just compounds the to hit problem with picks though as there is no more Halfling to hit bonuses and -3 from HO PA.

[bendover]

It's not a matter of disagree, it's a matter of fact.

Autocrit DPS is determined by 3 main things.

Your attack speed, your crit multiplier and your damage that is multipliable on a crit.

Of course you naively picked out the FB as being the best even with its low attack speed and limited source of multipliable damage.

A Rogue attack speed although good with haste boost IV is still only equal to that of a 12/6/2. However because almost all of a Rogues damage is coming from sneak attacks not much damage is multiplied by the *4 multiplier.

Take a str based Halfling Rogue (1375.5 DPS):

4.5 GS Heavy Pick
5 weapon modifier
15 str (40 str)
5 PA
2 hobgoblin
2 Shintao
9 Bard
1 Prayer
= 43.5 damage

Compare this to the Blitz (also has 4 extra haste boosts) (1552.01 DPS):

4.5 GS Heavy Pick
5 weapon modifier
28 str (66 str)
10 PA
2 hobgoblin
2 Shintao
4 claw set
9 Bard
1 Prayer
1 mastery
2 kensei
4 specialization
= 72.5 damage



However once you start including the max DPS Half Orc Rogue things do get closer as the Rogue now has 3 PA, 6 more str and extra haste boosts. Going HO just compounds the to hit problem with picks though as there is no more Halfling to hit bonuses and -3 from HO PA.

Good job on the numbers breakdown. Thank you.

[Royalties]

477 hp is not good enough for any front line melee.

I have tanked on epics with my fvs with 452 hit points in ToD, VoD, Epic Chronoscope and I've never wished I had more HP. As a matter of fact the Valiance build has 322 hit points and he solo'ed VoD, there's absolutely no reason you should -require- more HP.

[BossOfEarth]

Hey all. Before I get to 20 and go clicking join on any epic pugs (I'm 19 holding back a lvl til my friend catches up), I want to make sure I have the expectations covered. I had my experience failing traps at lvl 10 because I assumed I wouldnt need to shop for gear since I was a rogue and had my skill maxed, and don't feel like doing that on epics. I dunno what the DCs are, but rogues are welcome in Epic! VoN1 because *someone* has to get the password and the key, and hey, why not let the stealthy rogue do it and save everyone else the trouble. The fights are nothing to worry about. Idealy you'll be auto-critting helpless foes but even on a bare bones run the mobs will be aggroed exclusively on your firewaller, unless you *intentionaly* try to showboat by stealing aggro.

Lock pickers are desireable for Epic! VoN2 because they can sneak past the giant and unlock the chest which skips a long dull fight. Disarming the traps is just a luxury for groups that want to run the gauntlet for extra chests. There are a couple of times where you'll need a battleworthy rogue for VoN2. I dunno what the threshold is for rogues but I do ok with 400 HP and evasion. I think the most I've ever been hit for in VoN2 is 320 hp from a trap (excluding the 1499 I took from standing on the Ramp of Dooooom, but everyone will tell you not to stand there, so you don't have to worry about it.)

That said, I'd also like to know what DCs to expect on Epic!.

Edit: Oh, and bring a few raise dead clickies / scrolls. Usualy everything goes fine, but every once in a while everyone dies except for the dude with evasion. At that moment, it's cool to have some raises.

[neclon]

So HP can always improve. I'm planning a +45 gs item and I've got more hp coming from my next level. That comes after a radiance weap. I also plan on having a ToD ring be +9con if I understand how those work correctly.

I won't expect my dps to be better than a geared char designed purely for dps in autocrit situations but hopefully it's enough of a help on bosses and non-autocrit situations to be a good addition and my other skills can at least weigh me in for 1 slot in a group =). I'll start epics when I get 20 but like I said I dont want any xp hits on guildy who is still lvling up and has limited time.


4.5 GS Heavy Pick
5 weapon modifier
15 str (40 str)
5 PA
2 hobgoblin
2 Shintao
9 Bard
1 Prayer
= 43.5 damage

Compare this to the Blitz (also has 4 extra haste boosts) (1552.01 DPS):

4.5 GS Heavy Pick
5 weapon modifier
28 str (66 str)
10 PA
2 hobgoblin
2 Shintao
4 claw set
9 Bard
1 Prayer
1 mastery
2 kensei
4 specialization
= 72.5 damage

That's before multipliers right? Do fighters generally go kensei in heavy picks? I would think they were khopesh specced. Anyway both these chars are way out of my league. I don't have anything but a GS blank right now. To add my 2 cents to rogue dps - in ideal situations I'm not surprised if fighters and barbs have way more potential dps. I think the appeal to rogue dps is that even with non-optimal weapons and gear they get a lot of their damage handed to them for free as long as they don't have aggro and they can do some utility stuff in addition to being a not-to-distant 2nd in dps (like some wands, scrolls, lockpicking, sneaking).

[Quikster]

I have tanked on epics with my fvs with 452 hit points in ToD, VoD, Epic Chronoscope and I've never wished I had more HP. As a matter of fact the Valiance build has 322 hit points and he solo'ed VoD, there's absolutely no reason you should -require- more HP.

sorry but you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about and its very evident from this post

[neclon]

Incorrect, due to the fact that SA is not multiplied on a crit, in a group with stunning blow or hold monster the Rogue will in fact be doing the least DPS out of the melee toons.

Your numbers support a big gap with a build optimized for dps (blitz?). But what about exploiter builds, paladins? Pure rangers? Is the rogue really doing less than all of those non-dps optimized builds?

[Quikster]

Your numbers support a big gap with a build optimized for dps (blitz?). But what about exploiter builds, paladins? Pure rangers? Is the rogue really doing less than all of those non-dps optimized builds?

Any melee built for dps can contribute. Epics are not so hard that they need to have optimized builds only. The more dps that they can contribute the smoother the run will likely be all other factors being equal.

[karnokvolrath]

sorry but you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about and its very evident from this post

This. +1

Consumer great post nice breakkdown +1

Ben your beating a dead horse, or at least an ignorant one (least its entertaining). +1

This whole thread made me smile, thought id show some love.

OH and Royals, keep posting, you amaze me.

My battle caster has just barely under 450 and ill tell you right now hands down he has no place meleeing in epic...period.

[nivarch]

On a different note from all the previous messages.

You're talking of epic ... you should do a lot of raids before you can start epic. Be ready to spend around 1 Month farming VoD/Shroud/Reaver's whenever they are off from cooldown. In epic, a tier 3 GS weapon (and maybe a GS hp item) are almost mandatory.

Not saying you can't run epic without those, but they will make you feel less of a burden.

I'd suggest raising another toon when raids are on cooldown, so you can increase the speed you'll get larges for your GS items.
You should also start the tedious acquisition process of boots for ToD and work on a good DT armor.

[Royalties]

sorry but you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about and its very evident from this post

Well care to explain rather than making a blanket statement?

[Lifespawn]

I have tanked on epics with my fvs with 452 hit points in ToD, VoD, Epic Chronoscope and I've never wished I had more HP. As a matter of fact the Valiance build has 322 hit points and he solo'ed VoD, there's absolutely no reason you should -require- more HP.

maybe the fact that there is no epic vod or tod could have something to do with the fact none of us think you know what your talking about.

As for tanking Tod even on normal 477 is a 1 shot with a failed disintegrate so we know

U=clueless

[Quikster]

Well care to explain rather than making a blanket statement?

There is a ton of reasons, but most you will learn by playing more, so let me just say these few things.

A. A self healing fvs or cleric is not any front line melee. Are there builds and players that can get away playing at end game with < 500 hp? Sure. But when you (understood you) are talking about most players/endgame/frontline melee many dont have evasion, superior saves in all three categories, and the ability to hit one button and heal to full. The difference between a typical front line melee and a melee spec'd fvs, or a BB specd fvs or cleric are night and day in terms of survivability. Night and day.


B. Tanking in tod with <550 hitpoints is basically a no no, unless there is absolutely nobody better to do the job. Its been done plenty, it will be done again. Heck I did it at lvl 18 with no boots when the raid was new. But to do it on a consistent basis is simply asking for trouble.

C. Meleeing against epic liliat with that few hitpoints, and with no evasion or with evasion and a poor reflex save, is such a burden on the healers.

D. A failed save in Epic choro on several of the aoe attacks can land for more than 500 points easily.

E. Failed saves on several of the bases in von 6 can get you dead quick with that few hitpoints, not near as important against the dragon however.

F. Wiz king used to disintegrate and horrid wilting, failing either of those saves is an invitation to death with that few hitpoints.

G. Traps in elite ToD part 1 can be really nasty to non reflex based builds. Getting caught in the wrong position when a boss decides to toss you across the room may force 3 or more saves to be made. Even at 1/2 damage there is a good chance most melee with <500 hitpoints, and many with >500 hitpoints, are going to end up dead.

You quoted a build with super ac, super self healing, soloing a raid thats been out for years. None of the damage on normal in that raid is near as devastating as some of the attacks ive mentioned here.

The whole horoth thing is really a non issue because front line melee dont have to be tanks. However if he turns on someone that doesnt have a decent hitpoint pool, or the tank dies and he takes the next on the agro list, then that factor comes into play. On elite his dots tick for more, his melee attacks hit harder, and he gets an extra swing in his animation. Couple taht with his spell damage, blashphemy stun chance, and teh ever present disintegrate that can do plenty more than 500 points of damage on a 1, and you have a recipe for disaster.

As someone who has tanked/off tanked/barded/healed/castered/dps'd/and piked a ton of raids at end game on all difficulties, if you dont want to find yourself as a stone in someones pocket as a front line melee, most builds would be well served to get more than 500 hitpoints.

So Ill repeat, having less than 500 hitpoints is not ok at endgame for any front line melee. Note that this statement doesnt mean that all front line melee have to have more than 500 hitpoints, but that it isnt ok for all front line melee to have less than 500 hitpoints.

[pharky]

hp is never enough, i have 511 hp on my rogue and i find that little too. the more hp you have, the less times healers have to heal you because their mass heals will probably hit everyone for 500-600. this helps cut down resources in raids, especially for edq.

but anyway using diplomacy and turning aggro onto yr caster or healer is not really a good method of avoiding damage, its better to have radiance/grab guards and take the damage yourself, if your hp is high, the healer will be able to react and heal you if you are taking too much damage. of course the ideal situation is that the rogue doesn't get any aggro, but that doesn't always happen.

[bendover]

hp is never enough, i have 511 hp on my rogue and i find that little too. the more hp you have, the less times healers have to heal you because their mass heals will probably hit everyone for 500-600. this helps cut down resources in raids, especially for edq.

but anyway using diplomacy and turning aggro onto yr caster or healer is not really a good method of avoiding damage, its better to have radiance/grab guards and take the damage yourself, if your hp is high, the healer will be able to react and heal you if you are taking too much damage. of course the ideal situation is that the rogue doesn't get any aggro, but that doesn't always happen.

This is it. I'd +1 if I could, but regardless that's gonna fall onto deaf ears on the one that has decided to argue with a handful of vets on here.

[sirgog]

I have tanked on epics with my fvs with 452 hit points in ToD, VoD, Epic Chronoscope and I've never wished I had more HP. As a matter of fact the Valiance build has 322 hit points and he solo'ed VoD, there's absolutely no reason you should -require- more HP.

Uh - that's VoD. Out of every raid in the game, it's the one where AC is best and HP are least important, and the one where the boss doesn't have a single attack that can do 150 damage, even without fortification his melee crits do only 120 (plus curse) on Normal.

Anyone with under 400hp isn't suited for Epics yet, just as anyone without 100% fortification isn't suited for running Dueragar quests at level. There's too much unpredictable melee damage, too many spells like Horrid Wilting that almost one-shot you, and too many spells like Disintegrate and Meteor Swarm that actually will one-shot you.

Melees in Epics need to be able to survive the time that the healer's Heal spell is on cooldown. And Displacement, while helpful, isn't reliable enough to stay alive.


I expect the following from a rogue in Epics:

1) 400+ hp, preferably 450. These aren't easy benchmarks for the class to hit, unfortunately, especially for the races with a Con penalty.

2) 53 Search (with all available buffs) if the quest has nasty traps. That gets Chains of Flame, and IIRC it gets most other important traps.

3) Mid-range boss DPS and very high trash DPS (or the other way around, depending upon build and spec). Boss DPS suffers if rogues don't have Tharne's Goggles or some replacement - the class has quite low To-Hit.

4) The ability to use Heal and Raise Dead scrolls (preferably no-fail, but 32+ UMD is OK)



Some rogues bring other things to the table too - extremely high burst AC with intimidate, sustained AC and DR in some WF builds, Radiance or Earthgrab, and more.

[AMDarkwolf]

Little confused here.

How am I doing it so 'right' and I don't meet anyone's 'benchmark' ?

my rog (mnk/rog split) has 390. I do epics. Just fine. usually never die. Hes str build, pulls agro quite often. I do fine.

Monk has 417 total(WITH greensteel HP). Again, no issues. Yes I HAVE been one shot by a disint now and again, it happens, but not enough to classify either of my toons 'a horrible fail that will fail your run'

I think, really, that your a little too 'pro' with your 'must haves' A smart player is always better than a decked out 3 yr old 'has everything in game' toon.

[Quikster]

Little confused here.

How am I doing it so 'right' and I don't meet anyone's 'benchmark' ?

my rog (mnk/rog split) has 390. I do epics. Just fine. usually never die. Hes str build, pulls agro quite often. I do fine.

Monk has 417 total(WITH greensteel HP). Again, no issues. Yes I HAVE been one shot by a disint now and again, it happens, but not enough to classify either of my toons 'a horrible fail that will fail your run'

I think, really, that your a little too 'pro' with your 'must haves' A smart player is always better than a decked out 3 yr old 'has everything in game' toon.

2 alts with imp evasion, and right at the numbers everyone's talking about, yeah not sure your argument applies, thx for playing though.

[Freeman]

Little confused here.

How am I doing it so 'right' and I don't meet anyone's 'benchmark' ?

my rog (mnk/rog split) has 390. I do epics. Just fine. usually never die. Hes str build, pulls agro quite often. I do fine.

Monk has 417 total(WITH greensteel HP). Again, no issues. Yes I HAVE been one shot by a disint now and again, it happens, but not enough to classify either of my toons 'a horrible fail that will fail your run'

I think, really, that your a little too 'pro' with your 'must haves' A smart player is always better than a decked out 3 yr old 'has everything in game' toon.

I think the confusion comes from the definition of "front-line" melee. To me, at least, that means a melee character that can take and hold aggro when needed. Then there are the secondary melee characters, that can contribute a significant amount of DPS, but really aren't designed to hold aggro because of lower hitpoints. In general, the front line melee characters are your fighters, barbs, and paladins, while rangers, monks, rogues, and bards are the secondary. Yes, you can build a front-line melee out of any class, but the lower the hit die, the harder it gets.(I'd trust an unknown barbarian to tank a raid boss a lot faster than I'd trust an unknown rogue) This really only matters against mobs with high damage output, not your typical trash mob. At end-game, I would say 400hp is the minimum to have if you plan on meleeing nearly anything. If you plan on having much aggro, that number goes up. Your hp totals are fine for a secondary melee character.(And high AC can mitigate SOME hitpoints, although that gets much more difficult in epic) I just wouldn't plan on tanking Horoth like that.

[bendover]

Don't suck and you won't die. You're not suppose to be hit as a rogue. Diplomacy + radience and aggro management, learn to use it. The only reason you should die is because you have no crowd control or you're not a good rogue.

Forgot your -1 for being rude.

[AMDarkwolf]

2 alts with imp evasion, and right at the numbers everyone's talking about, yeah not sure your argument applies, thx for playing though.

Ok... doesn't clear things up much....



I think the confusion comes from the definition of "front-line" melee. To me, at least, that means a melee character that can take and hold aggro when needed. Then there are the secondary melee characters, that can contribute a significant amount of DPS, but really aren't designed to hold aggro because of lower hitpoints. In general, the front line melee characters are your fighters, barbs, and paladins, while rangers, monks, rogues, and bards are the secondary. Yes, you can build a front-line melee out of any class, but the lower the hit die, the harder it gets.(I'd trust an unknown barbarian to tank a raid boss a lot faster than I'd trust an unknown rogue) This really only matters against mobs with high damage output, not your typical trash mob. At end-game, I would say 400hp is the minimum to have if you plan on meleeing nearly anything. If you plan on having much aggro, that number goes up. Your hp totals are fine for a secondary melee character.(And high AC can mitigate SOME hitpoints, although that gets much more difficult in epic) I just wouldn't plan on tanking Horoth like that.

But this does. Thank you. +1 for a decent way of explaining it WITHOUT sounding like a pro-elite douchbag ****.

[Quikster]

Ok... doesn't clear things up much....




But this does. Thank you. +1 for a decent way of explaining it WITHOUT sounding like a pro-elite douchbag ****.


After reading the thread again sounds like youre referring to me.

I would also love to know what epics you are so successful at, because many of the epics would tear up <400 hitpoints unless you are staying out of the fight.

[AMDarkwolf]

lol why would you ask, you have gone with me many times.

DQ, AtDQ, OOB, Wizking, chains. Mostly, at this point, demonsands. Can count devils assault aswell, although I find that much easier than chains/wizking.

In each instance, Im right there, in the front lines, taking licks, but the point is you do not 'stand toe to toe' with something unless your built for it. You find other ways. Example being in wizking, you use the casters firewalls to build hate, or halt undead scrolls, and in every epic cc is heavily used. Frontline fighter is NOT 'tank' - Thats something else. Frontline fighter si the guys out in front who deal the damage as fast as possible to bring the threats down quick.

Also, idk how u managed to completely derail the thread, but 'rogue' is not frontline fighter. They are (IMO) the top dpsers but not the ones taking the licks.(Even though mine does pull agro often enough)

[Quikster]

lol why would you ask, you have gone with me many times.

DQ, AtDQ, OOB, Wizking, chains. Mostly, at this point, demonsands. Can count devils assault aswell, although I find that much easier than chains/wizking.

In each instance, Im right there, in the front lines, taking licks, but the point is you do not 'stand toe to toe' with something unless your built for it. You find other ways. Example being in wizking, you use the casters firewalls to build hate, or halt undead scrolls, and in every epic cc is heavily used. Frontline fighter is NOT 'tank' - Thats something else. Frontline fighter si the guys out in front who deal the damage as fast as possible to bring the threats down quick.

Also, idk how u managed to completely derail the thread, but 'rogue' is not frontline fighter. They are (IMO) the top dpsers but not the ones taking the licks.(Even though mine does pull agro often enough)

If you read the thread you will see that I didnt completely derail it. I had a couple posts referring to a specific poster, whom I was trying to discredit.

No I havent run a bunch of epics with you, which is why I ask. Matter of fact, im not sure Ive ever run even a single epic with you. After you made a whole group recall out of the sub so Gramoul would spawn as an easier mob, I started avoiding groups with you.

I dont believe you are meleeing liliat or epic Raiyum without dying at 390 hp, unless the group is using an intimitank.

I never, ever stated that a rog was a frontline melee, though it could be if build for it.

[AMDarkwolf]

If you read the thread you will see that I didnt completely derail it. I had a couple posts referring to a specific poster, whom I was trying to discredit.

No I havent run a bunch of epics with you, which is why I ask. Matter of fact, im not sure Ive ever run even a single epic with you. After you made a whole group recall out of the sub so Gramoul would spawn as an easier mob, I started avoiding groups with you.

I dont believe you are meleeing liliat or epic Raiyum without dying at 390 hp, unless the group is using an intimitank.

I never, ever stated that a rog was a frontline melee, though it could be if build for it.

LMAO what? Recalled out of sub(which is raid area, which doesn't scale mobs hp depending on group size...) to make it an easier mob? Really? LOL

Why do you pro-elite fools keep mistaken me for some other person. I am Malicai or Atmadarkwolf. NOBODY else. That(The above) Did not happen, and if it did, it was not me. STOP MISTAKING me for someone else. (Yes this keeps happening, people claiming i do some random silly thing ages ago which I never did...lol)

[CaptainCameo]

Hey all. Before I get to 20 and go clicking join on any epic pugs (I'm 19 holding back a lvl til my friend catches up), I want to make sure I have the expectations covered. I had my experience failing traps at lvl 10 because I assumed I wouldnt need to shop for gear since I was a rogue and had my skill maxed, and don't feel like doing that on epics.

Aside from the people who just don't want a rogue in the group at all (please don't hijack the thread, if you dont want rogues in your LFM I'll see that if you remove them from the grp list... usually... sometimes I see grps cuz of my 1 fighter): what are your expectations of a rogue joining a epic LFM? I have mostly gear that can be bought other than dragontouched (no greensteel yet).

I have the more obvious things I'm working with: keeping my HP up (at just over 300 now), good DD, Search, Spot, heavy fort, subtle stabbing, carrying scrolls to UMD such as raise dead if the healer bites it and I'm still up. Pit/devil beaters (metalline of pure good).

I was worried about my first epic but it went smoothly. There are lots of shortcuts people use in epics. Some you would never think of. So you have to pay attention.

I was worried about the traps because I was told you'd need a search dc of 60. You do not. I get by easily with 50 or around there. Just keep some +15 search goggles and make sure the caster or yourself has GH for those difficult ones.

A disable device skill of 60 can take care of most any trap easily. Keep in mind that the bonus from tools and the bonus from disable device items stack. If you're not an int based rogue, you might have trouble with some traps. Again, GH is a life saver.

I've been surviving easily with 350hp. You just have to position yourself and think about where to stand while fighting. Know when to run too. There's a spot in the tide turns quest that my groups almost wipe at every time. Someone usually has to grab a stone or two then run to the shrine.

There are some areas in the game where you can use traps to your advantage. Do not be afraid to use them. Luring enemies through epic traps is surprisingly effective.

If you have the UMD for it, don't be afraid of using summon monster in epics either. Summoned monsters get epic warded so it can be a useful distraction, especially when you need the enemies to stand in the traps a bit longer.

[AMDarkwolf]

I was worried about my first epic but it went smoothly. There are lots of shortcuts people use in epics. Some you would never think of. So you have to pay attention.

I was worried about the traps because I was told you'd need a search dc of 60. You do not. I get by easily with 50 or around there. Just keep some +15 search goggles and make sure the caster or yourself has GH for those difficult ones.

A disable device skill of 60 can take care of most any trap easily. Keep in mind that the bonus from tools and the bonus from disable device items stack. If you're not an int based rogue, you might have trouble with some traps. Again, GH is a life saver.

I've been surviving easily with 350hp. You just have to position yourself and think about where to stand while fighting. Know when to run too. There's a spot in the tide turns quest that my groups almost wipe at every time. Someone usually has to grab a stone or two then run to the shrine.

There are some areas in the game where you can use traps to your advantage. Do not be afraid to use them. Luring enemies through epic traps is surprisingly effective.

If you have the UMD for it, don't be afraid of using summon monster in epics either. Summoned monsters get epic warded so it can be a useful distraction, especially when you need the enemies to stand in the traps a bit longer.


Now this is a helpful post and what was needed. I think you deserve a +1 rep for a 'helpful' post to those just starting epics. (IE Not someone whos fully decked out in epic/gs gear who refuses to accept anyone BUT someone whos TR'ed 9 times and has all the gear ingame for their runs)

[Quikster]

LMAO what? Recalled out of sub(which is raid area, which doesn't scale mobs hp depending on group size...) to make it an easier mob? Really? LOL

Why do you pro-elite fools keep mistaken me for some other person. I am Malicai or Atmadarkwolf. NOBODY else. That(The above) Did not happen, and if it did, it was not me. STOP MISTAKING me for someone else. (Yes this keeps happening, people claiming i do some random silly thing ages ago which I never did...lol)

It absolutely did happen. You were on your monk Malicai I know exactly who you are. Even after I typed in party chat you insisted that everyone recall out because you were going to solo the skelly and then pass an IR if you pulled it.

You died, we went to the hound, and wiped. I stopped joining your groups after that NOT because you insisted on something that was wrong (which coincidentally you did in the hound raid as well) but because you wasted a lot of my time being the last guy to join a full Hound group, which was advertised for Hound, then proceed to mess with the skelly chest.

You can continue to call me all the names you want, but the facts remain.

You can also continue to say that I contribute nothing here, but the fact also remains I did. If you would get off your self righteous holier than thou high horse you would see what I contributed.

Until then go back to playing with the bubblegummers.

[AMDarkwolf]

It absolutely did happen. You were on your monk Malicai I know exactly who you are. Even after I typed in party chat you insisted that everyone recall out because you were going to solo the skelly and then pass an IR if you pulled it.

You died, we went to the hound, and wiped. I stopped joining your groups after that NOT because you insisted on something that was wrong (which coincidentally you did in the hound raid as well) but because you wasted a lot of my time being the last guy to join a full Hound group, which was advertised for Hound, then proceed to mess with the skelly chest.

You can continue to call me all the names you want, but the facts remain.

You can also continue to say that I contribute nothing here, but the fact also remains I did. If you would get off your self righteous holier than thou high horse you would see what I contributed.

Until then go back to playing with the bubblegummers.


Lol well if makin up stories helps u get by....


Anyways, the thread had nothing to do with non rogs, and your "memories"

[pharky]

I fully agree with sirgog's expectations of a rogue for epics. After all, it is just an expectation. Most of the rogues are unable to fulfill those criteria unless they have gear grinded for 1 or 2 months to be fully epic ready. At the same time, achieving as many of those criteria as possible will help the party have a very very smooth run with the least amount of resources used and in the shortest amount of time.

A new group of lv 20s can complete epic Bargain of Blood even if all of them only have 200 hp, but they may die several times in the quest, face the danger of being wiped etc.

A group of vets that are epic ready with 1-2 tier 3 GS and good raid gear can breeze through epic Bargain of Blood without using a shrine, the caster and healer have 3/4 of their mana left at the end and they finish in 1/3 the time.

What do you choose to be?

[neclon]

Cool, this gives me some benchmarks to hit. The fact is I'm sitting on a toon that was not built right. I kept him because he had alot of favor built up and was somewhat salvagable and I want to unlock fvs. I hope to get into enough epics to get 20 tokens for a TR. Then he'll go away. With my current gear + a GS hp item I'll be at 360 hps at lvl 20.

That is with minos, geater false life and a +6 con item. Are there any other non-epic sources of hp I can look for in the mean time (other than TOD ring which I plan on making con+9 for another +20 hps)?

I can hit the search req with GH and DD/lockpick should be good.

Thanks for all the feedback. There was significantly less derailing than I had anticipated, actually ;). That's just a feature of server boards.

[Quikster]

Cool, this gives me some benchmarks to hit. The fact is I'm sitting on a toon that was not built right. I kept him because he had alot of favor built up and was somewhat salvagable and I want to unlock fvs. I hope to get into enough epics to get 20 tokens for a TR. Then he'll go away. With my current gear + a GS hp item I'll be at 360 hps at lvl 20.

That is with minos, geater false life and a +6 con item. Are there any other non-epic sources of hp I can look for in the mean time (other than TOD ring which I plan on making con+9 for another +20 hps)?

I can hit the search req with GH and DD/lockpick should be good.

Thanks for all the feedback. There was significantly less derailing than I had anticipated, actually ;). That's just a feature of server boards.

If youre going to tr, I wouldnt invest much into more hitpoints. But if you must you can use a +2 con tome, for 20 more, and yugo favor pot for another 40.

[Geodude07]

Ok... doesn't clear things up much....




But this does. Thank you. +1 for a decent way of explaining it WITHOUT sounding like a pro-elite douchbag ****.

The only one who sounds like a "douchbag" here is you, his statement made sense in context and bringing that kind of attitude to the table in uncalled for...

You essentially said (paraphrasing) "Hey guys I have a char(who is essentially at benchmark) that does fine, everyone saying gear and having more hp is dead wrong and only 3 year old lamers who think they are "pro" need to use that stuff, as long as you are smart like me you can get by"

basically that is a pretty big insult to someone trying to help others out, you sounded arrogant and talked big, while also sounding sour about people wanting you to have "pro" gear or meet a certain requirement. Which at its heart is just a way to keep newer players out of too much trouble and give them a number to shoot for based on what can and will happen in epics.

Which is why he told you (paraphrasing) "look you have two characters at the limit people are talking about, so your statements about having the wrong numbers do not make sense. Thanks for insulting everyone trying to help out too"

clearly you have something against people who are "a little too 'pro'" and thats fine, but running rampant insulting people for just suggesting a benchmark is wrong, and your statements made you sound like the elitist. Go ahead and revise them and you'll see what I mean. I dont mean to inflame your rage or insult you but it is hypocritical to insult everyone for being too elite for asking for minimal reqs while you state you are so amazing that with a little smarts you can break all limits and denounce the need for good gear. Yes you didn't say exactly that, but it was heavily implied.

i do however agree it is better to have a "smart player" than a decked out literal 3 year old, but a smart player WILL have decent gear and WILL listen to people who have run epic quests tons of times.

feel free to neg rep me too if you so desire, but I just hope you apologize to the other guy

PS ive never TR'ed and I havent got insane equips so im not a "pro elite fool" or whatever else, im not sitting on tons of gear either. I experiment, listen and just enjoy my game with my friends. I just hate bad attitudes and insults towards members of the community who are trying to help out.

[RS-Makk]

I was wondering - how are some of you guys getting 475-500hp on a rogue?

[Tanka]

I was wondering - how are some of you guys getting 475-500hp on a rogue?
High Con (14-16 base, depending on other stats), +6 con item, +2 Exceptional Con from various gear, +2 Con tome, GFL (or Superior False Life, in some cases), +45 HP Shroud item, Rage spell, Madstone Rage (x2), +2 Con Yugoloth pot (provides additional 20 HP on top of that for total of 40 HP), Toughness + Enhancements (generally +42-62 HP, depending on race).

It's not too difficult if you dedicate yourself to it, and once you get there, you realize how bad off you had it before.

[RS-Makk]

Thanks.

So do you find that the extra 40hp is worth the 5% melee speed hit (and thus DPS loss) you get from the Yugo pot? (or is there a way to not get that hit?)

[Tanka]

Thanks.

So do you find that the extra 40hp is worth the 5% melee speed hit (and thus DPS loss) you get from the Yugo pot? (or is there a way to not get that hit?)
Depends on what you're fighting, really.

If you find yourself getting notoriously low on HP in ToDs, it's worth it if only so the healers aren't having heart attacks every time you snatch aggro. If not, then they aren't worth it.

[ColsonJade]

Want to be affective in epics. Get a dreamspitter and hit the same mob everyone else is hitting. Doesn't matter what class, if you see blue cirlces, earth graps or stunned stars you help you party out.

[unscythe]

Started 15 con on a human rogue.
+1 con from human versatility enhancement
+2 con tome
+6 con item
So normally around 24 con = +140 hp at 20
+2 con from rage = +20 hp at 20

+45 hp Shroud item
+20 hp herioc Durability
+120 Base Hit Points
+22 hp Toughness
+30 hp Human enhancements
+30 Greater False life
+20 Minos helm- toughness on an item

Total = 447 hit points

I think the hardest piece is the GS item, but you can have 380 hp without rage. So 400 hitpoints with a rage spell.

My pure rogue doesn't have exceptional con of any kind, litany of the dead, Yugo pots, madstone boots ,or Argo favor.

So potentially I can have my rogue have well over 500 hit points, but that 10 hit points would be nice from Argo favor when I get around to it.

I am not counting in the +2 con ship buff either. So in a raid, I normally see around 470 hit points.

I run earthgrab guard on my hp GS item, and wear the epic Mabar cloak for the 5/good dr and the chance to go invis when hit,and freeze guard on my DT. Auto-crit mobs are a rogues best friend,and second best is a hate-tank that can hold aggro.

I would never want to be a frontline with a rogue, 450+ hp is not enough, it is only enough hp for you to make it out of the fray(WHICH is not always the best idea when the healers throw down masses and your not the target).

For epics, I expect to be able to find traps, disable them, and lay down the dps on auto crit mobs.
If you have the assassin 3 Prestige, and the assissin set from Tod, you can be extremely useful. You can sometimes throw down negative levels.

There is also a really funny side note, but Assassin 3 can vorpal epic mobs sometimes. Maybe that has been fixed, but I have seen a few epic mobs vorped(maybe they didnt get the epic ward or something, idk thought it was cool). Super low chance, but the combat log doesnt lie, or seeing an epic mob at 80% hp drop dead.

[BlackPlague]

Quik +1 for being right and pwning as usual.

Ben +1 for pwning as usual.

AM... If that story is true, I find it hard to not believe it, then -1

Query. Noticed something about attack speed vs the blitz a while back, would madstone bringing the (BAB) up to par, simultaniously bring the Attack Speed up to par? Also is there anything (aside from UMD scrolling) that a rogue would not do while madstoned? + more hp for the charts.

[unscythe]

Query. Noticed something about attack speed vs the blitz a while back, would madstone bringing the (BAB) up to par, simultaniously bring the Attack Speed up to par? Also is there anything (aside from UMD scrolling) that a rogue would not do while madstoned? + more hp for the charts.

If it works like barb rage, then you may not be able to search/disable device.

[RS-Makk]

Thanks for the breakdown, that was helpful.


I run earthgrab guard on my hp GS item, and wear the epic Mabar cloak for the 5/good dr and the chance to go invis when hit,and freeze guard on my DT. Auto-crit mobs are a rogues best friend,and second best is a hate-tank that can hold aggro.
.


If I may, what's your hp item with the mabar cloak setup? I myself struggle with where to put the HP item (if not cloak) and would welcome recommendations. My current HP item is the cloak, and I would like to be able to throw on the mabar cloak on epics for the same reasons you said (really the DR and the invis, the always blur'ed is also a bonus in case for some odd reason I dont have blur but I usually UMD a 10th level blur wand and I am good). I want to craft a 2nd hp item now that I have the cloak - but not sure where to put it since most spots taken:

Head - minos, Rings/Belt/Neck - shintao set, ravager set, Boots - Madstone, Gloves - Spectral (for the to hit and as a dex item), Goggles - tharnes (or +6 Cha skills item if I am UMD'ing).

That really only leaves Bracers in a DPS focus situation (on non-epics and where I want to be on AC mode - bracers are the +8 bracers), although I have been using the Tharnes there for threat reduction and also just got the Levik's and was thinking that healing amp will be nice. That said, I'm grinding for the DT healing amp tempest rune and when I get that it frees that up.

Thanks!

[Quikster]

Thanks for the breakdown, that was helpful.




If I may, what's your hp item with the mabar cloak setup? I myself struggle with where to put the HP item (if not cloak) and would welcome recommendations. My current HP item is the cloak, and I would like to be able to throw on the mabar cloak on epics for the same reasons you said (really the DR and the invis, the always blur'ed is also a bonus in case for some odd reason I dont have blur but I usually UMD a 10th level blur wand and I am good). I want to craft a 2nd hp item now that I have the cloak - but not sure where to put it since most spots taken:

Head - minos, Rings/Belt/Neck - shintao set, ravager set, Boots - Madstone, Gloves - Spectral (for the to hit and as a dex item), Goggles - tharnes (or +6 Cha skills item if I am UMD'ing).

That really only leaves Bracers in a DPS focus situation (on non-epics and where I want to be on AC mode - bracers are the +8 bracers), although I have been using the Tharnes there for threat reduction and also just got the Levik's and was thinking that healing amp will be nice. That said, I'm grinding for the DT healing amp tempest rune and when I get that it frees that up.

Thanks!

You could throw it on the boots, and just use the boots as a clickie and/or till proc, then swap back.

[Spoprockel]

Won't he miss those extra hp in ToD?

I know this is about epic, but i wouldn't want to take off my GS hp item on my rogue, in any content

[Quikster]

Won't he miss those extra hp in ToD?

I know this is about epic, but i wouldn't want to take off my GS hp item on my rogue, in any content

No because he already has a hp item on his cloak. So he'll miss his cloak in tod.

Besides, its not really that important. 1 part of 1 raid he wont have either the cloak or a hitpoint item. Also that raid is prolly not a huge priority to him as he seems to have two sets from there already, so really he would only be running it for +4 tomes. Add all that up, and the fact that having hitpoints in a raid where a tank should be holding agro, really doesnt convince me that the boots arent viable. Its not like hes going to be able to handle the agro from horoth if he got it with or without the hitpoint item, that leaves sully and the orthons to worry about. Unless hes running on elite, it really shouldnt be an issue.

[RS-Makk]

You could throw it on the boots, and just use the boots as a clickie and/or till proc, then swap back.

You know, I was seriously considering that also - my only concern was that (if I understand correctly - not at my game computer now so cannot check) when I take off the HP boots and put them back on, the max HP goes up but the actual HP doesnt and would thus need a heal to get those 45hp back.. and wasnt sure if that extra drain on healing resources every 2 minutes or so was worth it. Then again, it may be lost in the noise of all the other healing that will be going on.

[Tanka]

Then again, it may be lost in the noise of all the other healing that will be going on.
In fact, it will be lost in the noise of most raiding parties. A mediocre healer's Mass Cure spell will land on everyone for more than 45HP.

[RS-Makk]

No because he already has a hp item on his cloak. So he'll miss his cloak in tod.

Besides, its not really that important. 1 part of 1 raid he wont have either the cloak or a hitpoint item. Also that raid is prolly not a huge priority to him as he seems to have two sets from there already, so really he would only be running it for +4 tomes. Add all that up, and the fact that having hitpoints in a raid where a tank should be holding agro, really doesnt convince me that the boots arent viable. Its not like hes going to be able to handle the agro from horoth if he got it with or without the hitpoint item, that leaves sully and the orthons to worry about. Unless hes running on elite, it really shouldnt be an issue.

Yes - for non-epics I already do have the HP item on my cloak so I was planning on keeping my cloak as my HP item for non-epics. That said - the nice thing about putting the HP item on boots is that if I am doing the 'AC mode' thing (my build is actually a variation of an exploiter with more rogue levels and not a pure rogue), it does allow me to also take advantage of the +2 dodge AC from the cloak. The only bummer is my HP cloak is a conc-opp and I thus trade that off, but frankly I dont really think I get that much on the 'exploiter-ish' build from conc-opp, especially when I am on AC mode.

Regarding TOD - the ravager set is still something I am working towards, but I am nearing my 40th completion and hope to get either ravager or encrusted ring - and after that yes, will continue to run for +4 tomes for a future TR. But as Quik said - I am not as worried on HP on that one raid given my AC is significant enough to reduce the HP need AND there's a tank holding aggro (since my AC wont be high enough to be a main tank).

[platonicx]

Absolutely not. Agro management in end game is the most important you can possibly have. I'm not going to diplo cleaving devils onto the rest of the party that's stupid. I invested into intimidate for moments when someone else cannot provide agro management. Again before you come in here insulting people you should know who and what you're talking about.

Whatever it is a kobold or an epic godzilla your supposed to use diplomacy ... do you even know how it works? it dumbs aggro on the nearest target u know ... not on the healers or anything but on the other pll in melee ... which is usually the said barb with Twice your hp and a ton of DR ... If you dont use diplomacy on your rogue u fail. And no i dont care who you are :)

more hp is always nice but you cant tank with a rogue with 30 ac and think the extra 100 hp will do the trick ...

[bendover]

Whatever it is a kobold or an epic godzilla your supposed to use diplomacy ... do you even know how it works? it dumbs aggro on the nearest target u know ... not on the healers or anything but on the other pll in melee ... which is usually the said barb with Twice your hp and a ton of DR ... If you dont use diplomacy on your rogue u fail. And no i dont care who you are :)

more hp is always nice but you cant tank with a rogue with 30 ac and think the extra 100 hp will do the trick ...

NO. Using diplo is dumb. If you built a rogue the right away you'll be able to shed agro with gear. It's stupid to diplo epic mobs onto your healer or caster. The other melees will take agro off you quick enough. Like I said I take intimidate on my rogue for those situations when things go south and there is no agro management. I don't think I can count more then a couple times I've seen a rogue diplo things in a raid or epics. When you get out of waterworks come talk to us.

[unscythe]

NO. Using diplo is dumb. If you built a rogue the right away you'll be able to shed agro with gear. It's stupid to diplo epic mobs onto your healer or caster. The other melees will take agro off you quick enough. Like I said I take intimidate on my rogue for those situations when things go south and there is no agro management. I don't think I can count more then a couple times I've seen a rogue diplo things in a raid or epics. When you get out of waterworks come talk to us.

YEAH your such a noob, get Diplo!!!! J/k

Looking pretty rough for you Bendover, all the players are calling you out. :P

My rogue is just like yours, I have intim ready for when the healer , kiter, or caster get into a little bit of knockdown trouble, intimidate will save their toons life. Intim is for those silly kiters......saves me the pain of chase and then telling the healer to stop healing the silly kiter.

Diplo is not good because it is random! Any good player will have the common sense to only pull aggro that they can handle. So diplo is not nessecary unless your griefing, or getting that easy 2k+ Crucible experience in GH.

Unless you guys have capped a few toons, done alot of end game content EASILY. Please keep it down because we know your not speaking from your mouth.

[bendover]

YEAH your such a noob, get Diplo!!!! J/k

Looking pretty rough for you Bendover, all the players are calling you out. :P

My rogue is just like yours, I have intim ready for when the healer , kiter, or caster get into a little bit of knockdown trouble, intimidate will save their toons life. Intim is for those silly kiters......saves me the pain of chase and then telling the healer to stop healing the silly kiter.

Diplo is not good because it is random! Any good player will have the common sense to only pull aggro that they can handle. So diplo is not nessecary unless your griefing, or getting that easy 2k+ Crucible experience in GH.

Unless you guys have capped a few toons, done alot of end game content EASILY. Please keep it down because we know your not speaking from your mouth.

It makes me happy to see other rogues actually taking intimidate. Glad others are seeing the benefit :).

[neclon]

Hi... why is the assumption when you use diplo that the mobs are going to attack caster/healer?

I figured diplo would dump the mob to the next highest on aggro list (and if you simply grabbed aggro from a fighter/barb that would be the goal, right?)

[s1pinup]

My friend plays a rogue and his role in the epics besides traps since he doesn't contribute as much DPS as say a fighter class he uses a dreamspitter on held mobs which is a huge help.

[Tanka]

My friend plays a rogue and his role in the epics besides traps since he doesn't contribute as much DPS as say a fighter class he uses a dreamspitter on held mobs which is a huge help.
If a rogue isn't doing more DPS than a Fighter against a held mob, they're doing it wrong. (Fortification notwithstanding.)

[Kominalito]

i feel bad for the OP asking a serious question and getting nothing but ego posts.

[neclon]

i feel bad for the OP asking a serious question and getting nothing but ego posts.

I got my answers. aim for 400hp, 350 will suffice in a good group on a not-too-hard epic dungeon. 53+ search/dd. Don't be a Leeroy Jenkins. I have played MMOs enough to expect a certain amount of personality clash in any server board on just about every thread (especially a rather open-ended question about end game).

[gott_ist_tot]

If youre going to tr, I wouldnt invest much into more hitpoints. But if you must you can use a +2 con tome, for 20 more, and yugo favor pot for another 40.

IMO hoarding on yugo pots is exactly the thing one should do when planning to TR.

P.S. This thread is a deeply sarisfying read on several levels.

[Quikster]

IMO hoarding on yugo pots is exactly the thing one should do when planning to TR.

P.S. This thread is a deeply sarisfying read on several levels.

Meh

Yugo pots are nice but not needed in the slightest to tr.

If I had the favor I might make sure my stacks are in double digits, but that's about it.

I'd much rather have greensteels (several) raid loot, tomes etc then yugo pots.

[Quikster]

i feel bad for the OP asking a serious question and getting nothing but ego posts.


Pffft. He got answers. If he can't handle a few ego posts, he aint ready for epic....

(he/she if/where appropriate)

[PopeJual]

Meh

Yugo pots are nice but not needed in the slightest to tr.

If I had the favor I might make sure my stacks are in double digits, but that's about it.

I'd much rather have greensteels (several) raid loot, tomes etc then yugo pots.

But please don't actually eat any of those tomes if you are going to just TR a second time. Maybe just a +2 Dex tome if you're going to TWF, but don't spend any real resources and don't flag for the Beaver or the Abbot on that life if you're going to TR again.

Just say no to grind that you can conveniently skip.

[Lifespawn]

But please don't actually eat any of those tomes if you are going to just TR a second time. Maybe just a +2 Dex tome if you're going to TWF, but don't spend any real resources and don't flag for the Beaver or the Abbot on that life if you're going to TR again.

Just say no to grind that you can conveniently skip.

abbot is hard to skip litany is such good xp

[maestro973]

abbot is hard to skip litany is such good xp

True, gotta love the litany XP. I never actually flagged for Abbot while leveling though and instead just answered the dragon's riddle ,(I always used Mentau for some reason) got my xp and chest, and rinse/repeat.

Humorously enough, after capping I decided to finally flag at lightspeed levels of zerging, completely forgot DW or a deathblock item and the gate to kai teng opens and instantly click clack went the vorpal blade. Nice little lesson in humility.

[Quikster]

abbot is hard to skip litany is such good xp

Meh

People have told me not to waste a sigil or relics flagging for raids on a tr. But you get lots of xp gathering a new sigil and reilics. Besides, after 1 flagging you can usually get most of the second sigil while trying to get that last piece you need.

[LordPiglet]

Meh

People have told me not to waste a sigil or relics flagging for raids on a tr. But you get lots of xp gathering a new sigil and reilics. Besides, after 1 flagging you can usually get most of the second sigil while trying to get that last piece you need.

That's what I found, I actually was running reaver during my second life, and I have at least 10 of left over.

[Hokonoso]

lot a good stuff in this thread, got a good laugh or two!


Meh

People have told me not to waste a sigil or relics flagging for raids on a tr. But you get lots of xp gathering a new sigil and reilics. Besides, after 1 flagging you can usually get most of the second sigil while trying to get that last piece you need.

never skip litany flagging on a tr or any toon. those quests give such good xp that you can do them to gain the sigil piece and not get any extra pieces and turn them in and still be fine next life as you do it again! i always have a completed sigil while STILL farming those quests for xp on all my trs, i used to bank pieces but find it completely unnecessary as the xp is too good, you can skip gh and vale on single trs with necro 4 farming (double trs still need to hit the boring quests tho).

with that said, playstyle is a huge factor to the OP, 350hp is fine if you are amazing and keeping yourself alive. you wont get 1 shot with 350hp (base, not buffed) so as long as you run away when you are hit with a big spell and umd heal up, you will die less than the 800hp barbarian every time cause he has no evasion and cant umd heal scrolls.

also monks are front line melee, mine can reach 721hp and tank everything in the game as a human (not wf or dorf) so potential is much higher for those races. highest hp goes barb > fighter > monk simply cause fighters and monks get so many extra feats and those 22hp toughnesses add up. paladins can never reach monk hp so id def put monk at front line melee if built right. /endderail

also to the OP, your caster is more important than your healer. a good caster makes sure the cleric ends each shrining sessions with 80% or more sp (if healbot of course) cause a good caster cc's EVERYTHING! before the melee even gets near it or can get hit from it. so make good friends with good casters and your epic life will be a breeze. Also, a great healer will keep you alive with 250hp as well cause there are some good healers out there that can keep any squishy rogue up! so make some friends and epic with them.

[neclon]

4.5 GS Heavy Pick
5 weapon modifier
15 str (40 str)
5 PA
2 hobgoblin
2 Shintao
9 Bard
1 Prayer
= 43.5 damage

Compare this to the Blitz (also has 4 extra haste boosts) (1552.01 DPS):

4.5 GS Heavy Pick
5 weapon modifier
28 str (66 str)
10 PA
2 hobgoblin
2 Shintao
4 claw set
9 Bard
1 Prayer
1 mastery
2 kensei
4 specialization
= 72.5 damage

I'd like to see this fleshed out more, but I don't know enough about game math to do it correctly. What your numbers show is on main hand attacks after adding full sneak attack the rogue is behind by about ~36.5 pts per hit? Why isnt the rogue able to use the claw set, too?

How does it work out with off hand attacks, full sneak, and tempest and any other things that are a part of the blitz build (does it have any fighter flanking dmg or something like that to balance out rogue +12 to flanking and halfling +8). You can cary a lot of things with 5 charges of DP and rogue can UMD them so when it counts the rogue can have the same BAB most of the time (minus the time to actually click it during long fights).

And the question remains: is this blitz build the top dps build? Or an average dps build? If rogue is not too far behind blitz it seems like they're far from being way behind every other melee... in non-autocrit am I at least probably in the top tier dps?

P.s. and is dpsing trash that can be held really the important part of the fight? Isn't dps on the boss generally just as, or more important?