On Neverwinter, DDO's Future, and D&D Compliance

[Wren666]

In This Issue: Have Turbine painted themselves into a corner?

I mean, have they deviated from pen-and-paper rules so much, that introducing any more elements from D&D becomes increasingly awkward because they have to make them play nicely with a whole bunch of existing stuff that isn't D&D..

Prestige Classes, Multi-Classing, Spells, Feats, the combat system, Crafting, even the way Adventures are presented...



Now, I never played any MMO before DDO went Free-To-Play last year. And no; it was more because of Dungeons & Dragons than the lack of any payment needed, because there'd been other free MMOs out there since forever, but I just can't tolerate any extensive character-building system that isn't D&D - (Diablo works fine because character-building isn't the focus of pure hack-&-slash games like that, but I just couldn't get into Dragon Age's mechanics, and didn't even want to check out World of Warcraft, because IMO they just end up being pale imitations of the system they've been inspired by.)


and yeah I've never actually participated in an actual tabletop PnP session either, but I have been playing just about every D&D CRPG since Pool of Radiance on the Commodore 64 and the classic Gold Box games by good ol' SSI on the PC DOS :D

I really enjoyed Treasures of the Savage Frontier and Eye of the Beholder, and of course, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale and Planescape: Torment go without saying.

and I had a blast min-max'ing all sorts of builds in the original Neverwinter Nights and its expansions.



Anyways, a year later, I'm still tripping up on the little surprises that DDO keeps throwing at us, by way of how all sorts of things work differently when compared to D&D 3.5E. Most of those changes do make sense in a real-time 3D environment, but still more of those quirks are actually just locking the game further into that proverbial corner; for example:

Prestige Classes vs. Enhancements: I believe Prestige Enhancements were introduced at a time when the Level Cap was lower than 20 and there was no mechanism for Character Respecs in place, so it would have been very costly (and frustrating) for players to risk taking an irreversible Character Level in a different Class. But now that we have all sorts of Reincarnation and plenty of Leveling room to dabble in different classes, we're still stuck with the redheaded stepchild that is Enhancements, forever more. :rolleyes:


Greensteel: They tried to introduce a comprehensive system of Crafting, but instead ended up locking a large concentration of the playerbase and playtime into a very small subset of the game's overall content (just 4 or 5 Quests.) Nevermind the mindnumbingly-excessive repetitions (the "grind") involved.
(the purpose of this post is not to complain about these 2 specifics, I'm just trying to make a point, so lets not let this discussion get derailed by that) :p

and last but not least, the LORE. Yeah. If you've ever had any exposure to the Forgotten Realms and the world of Faerûn, there'll be little to relate to in Eberron Unlimited. Even if your only introduction to D&D's premier campaign setting was R.A. Salvatore's books, DDO's Drow alone will elicit an alienating "WT*?" response - There's very little to care about here if you're in it for the lore, even without all the redundant dialog and non-existent storytelling (which, as I understand, is one area WoW actually excels in.) This is another example of painting oneself into a corner: Turbine wanted a Setting that wasn't tied down by a TON of already-existing conventions, so they could have more creative room to work with in terms of an MMO, but now, any story-arcs they put out and any new NPCs they introduce, have about as much intrigue and charisma as a dull signboard.


Of course, none of this will matter if you were a DDO player before you were a D&D fan. ..


MEANWHILE, we have another D&D multilpayer game coming up on the horizon:
Neverwinter (http://www.playneverwinter.com)

..a psuedo-MMO (according to its developers, probably just as a legal defense against Turbine's exclusive rights to running a D&D MMO) based on D&D's 4th Edition rules and set in the familiar setting of the Forgotten Realms, supposedly with a strong emphasis on storytelling, to tie in with the new book trilogy (www.WizardsOfTheCoast-Digital.com/WizardsOfTheCoast/Neverwinter_Book1 (http://www.wizardsofthecoast-digital.com/wizardsofthecoast/neverwinter_book1)) by the author of the Drizzt series.


*ensuing cries of lament against 4E* ...Ah yes, come now; with the abomination (in regards to lore and rules-compliance) that DDO has evolved into, and the identity-crisis of Eberron (what is it; high-fantasy, steampunk, sci-fi - all of them?) the haters really don't have much call to rage on 4E.

Granted, it's being developed by a company that actually admitted to having done a not-too-good job on their previous games (in this interview with EuroGamer.net (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-08-24-cryptic-we-need-to-improve-for-neverwinter)) but you have to wonder if Turbine's own bug-ridden offerings would be as overlooked if not for the strong brand-names (LotR and D&D) backing them...


In any case, I for one am excited for this fresh chance to get a D&D multiplayer game right - that is, with better adherence to familiar rules and world-settings. Even if Neverwinter fails to live up to our expectations, it may, just may, push Turbine (or some other developer) enough to consider a DDO II, maybe even call it Faerun Forever ;)

because, as it is, Eberron Unlimited has moved too far from high-adventure and deep into high grind, with the addition of each new feature trying to make a Right from 2 (or more) Wrongs, and I don't see things improving without a substantial overhaul.

Thoughts of other D&D CRPG/PnP fans on this?

[Brannigan]

Any Faerun based D&D MMO that stays nearer the familiar rule set will have a very good chance of being succsessful, especially in an 'Open World' scenario.

I just hope they do not rush it out.

If it's done well it could swing alot of D&D fans over to it.

[katana_one]

As far as the lore goes, being a long-time PnP player, I've played in many home-brew campaigns in the last 20+ years, so I'm used to adapting to races and worlds that don't conform to the official materials. I think most PnP players would agree that this is a non-issue.

[EinarMal]

The biggest issue with this game is overpowered items and grind in my opinion. So, on that point I agree. In the old days you get could get named items as quest rewards that competed well with the best items in the game. This kept the divide between casual and non-casual players close.

Now with reincarnation, and huge disparity in grind items vs. easy to get items there is too large of a gap.

I liked the game better when player skill and build were the most important things, and the gear was secondary. I just find that more interesting personally. I do not like 36 point builds, past life feats, and all that stuff. The problem is this at the heart is a grouping game, and the disparity is so great between different players that they cannot really even group together in most cases with each contributing.

As far as Nevewinter Online I am skeptical. Cryptic games generally I have not liked, and if they stick to the same tired WOW style combat of two people standing in a spot smacking each other until one dies (with the occasional "special attack") meh.....

If they copied DDO combat, had fun interesting content, I would check it out for sure.

[Ulfgaar]

It is obvious that the games are going to be so different that Turbine has little to worry about. If nothing else having more Dungeons and Dragons games out there helps to bring the brand to more people.

As for the other game the biggest issue for any MMO is playability and few games have really nailed it down. They will also have limited races, classes, no Free to Play model, and far less content in relation to this game. Free to Play is one of the best things they have done to this game as it allows people to get a feel for a game before they decide if they want to keep it. A far better system then a "10 day trial". Also why they are making their decision if they want to puchase something they always have the option of putting a bit of money towards their experience.

The only other Dungeons and Dragons game I personally would want to play would be a turn based game like Temple of Elemental Evil. However that is a game that in my mind is more of a single player non MMO game and is in a entirely different ball park.

Also as far as crafting goes I don't know any game that has crafting that doesn't have you in a certain area working out ingredients. I love farming Green Steel ingredients and really once you are into the raid part of the issue you are usually in a easier run now so it becomes more of a loot run and a chance at +3 tomes or your cleansing shard every 20.

I don't see myself going anywhere and I don't even think I personally am going to look at that game as "legit" until a year after release if they are hanging in there with a strong player base. Obviously some will go try it as they love the setting and may enjoy their ideas. But I still think Turbine has little to worry about.

[Wren666]

The only other Dungeons and Dragons game I personally would want to play would be a turn based game like Temple of Elemental Evil. However that is a game that in my mind is more of a single player non MMO game and is in a entirely different ball park.Ohh I love that game - It's been a permanent fixture on all my primary HDDs on all my comps :)

+1 for you. ToEE really has the most-accurate D&D rules-engine ever in a computer game. I love the turn-based combat which can be more intense and thrilling than any real-time system because you have to make every move count during your turn and can't do anything but hope they don't roll a 20 while the monsters make their moves :)

That's what inspired me to wonder Can a MMO with Turn-Based Battles work, and be fun? (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=226559)

[Irinis]

Oh god not 4E!

I hadn't heard that not-so-tasty bit of bad news...

*cries in a corner*

[learst]

I'm not an avid D&D player, never played P&P before. My exposure to D&D lore came from CRPGs like Icewind Dale, Baldur's Gate, NWN and some occasional reading of the WOTC website and some novels. So Forgotten Realms is the setting I'm most familiar with.

I heard that there was a new campaign setting called Eberron, and DDO put me in quite a surprise for a while, especially the Drow. (Lol I remember this one time I was in a party (Elf) with another Elf and 2 Drows and we pretended we hate each other so much during the entire run of Gwylan's stand. The drows begrudgingly tolerate us cos they need to complete quest for gold, and we needed their aid because we need to protect our sacred ground and we had no one else to turn to. It was really fun a really fun RP session :P) But I have grown to learn more and like Eberron by reading NPC dialogues, and the Lorekeeper lounge. The Devs did invest quite a lot of effort and thought into injecting the lore into this game, it's a shame most folks just skip through them.

tl;dr aside, would another D&D based MMO interest me? Definitely, espcieally if it's based on Forgotten Realms. I have no experience with 4E or the developer, so I"m willing to give it a chance. However I still enjoy DDO very much, and I think it's a pretty great game and it'll be quite a feat to top that. On the other hand, another D&D CRPG in the likes of BG or IWD will definitely get my attention. Slap on Black Isle studios on the cover and "where do I sign for my credit card?" ;)

[Tumarek]

Ok wait hold on a sec...

Are you actually saying Forgottem Realms is a good campain?

Really?

Forgottem Reamls is IMHO one of the worst campains ever made in history of D&D (and RPG in general). It has no original ideas (just copy paste from LotR and other stuff) hardly any worthwhile politics and most characters are so boring and one sided i was shocked while reading the settings.

I wont get into detail, but most other campains (eg Darksun, Ravenloft and Ebberon) have so much more going on, so much more possibilities and so many more intresting concepts to build an intresting world.

Sure the first few Drizzt books were nice but after that i just got the feeling Salvator only wrote the other books to express his crush on drizzt and the gang.



As for moving away from core D&D system ... best thing turbine ever did (not insisting they did a great job at it). The core D&D system is only average at best. Highly imba but lots of options. This screams change in my ears. Multiclassing and feats are really great but at around level 16 anything that isnt either a Cleric or a Wizard is pretty much a gimp... no matter what they did. Turbine changed this, still far from a perfect balance but at least in DDO endgame every class is viable.


Now we have neverwinternight coming out... ah uhm ill give it a chance but neither the game studio nor Salvator (Drizzts creator) have had a good publishing in a while... so i dont think it will be too scary.

Things i think turbine has to do to keep ahead of any real competition is to work on the meta game much more... crafting, challenge and looks of the PC's is something DDO really suck at.


PS: If you actually want D&D lore you should better stick to the campains Blackmore or Greyhawk... just saying

[Ainimache]

Saying Ebberon isn't DnD lore because it's not Forgotten Realms is like saying Dragonlance isn't.

There are plenty of novels and sourcebooks based on Ebberon.

No, it's not "high fantasy." It's different. If the feel of Ebberon really could be incorporated into the game, it'd be great. As it is, all they can do is offer morally ambiguous quests like Church and Cult or the Sharn Syndicate, and let us be other than absolutely pure as far as alignments go. You know, more like real people than super-heroes.

Anyway, I like the setting. I've read a few of the novels and the Dungeon Master's sourcebook. It's a very interesting world, and there's plenty to it.

I will agree that DDO isn't DnD.

[katana_one]

Oh god not 4E!

So it begins ...

[Missing_Minds]

I just hope they do not rush it out.

It is Atari. (they own Cryptic) it WILL be shoved out the door before it is ready.

Cryptic is already lacking a solid development team. They never got CO correct before they started to eat that team to form up ST:O. And now before either are refinished (which I'm hoping the F2P streamlining they are doing to CO may actually make that game as fun as it was pre NERF/Screwover day 1 launch) They are trying to make a NWN setup.

I feel really bad for their developers, honestly, having to deal with an extremely hard to win setup like they have going.

[shores11]

Overall I love and appreciate what Turbine has brought to the table. A D&D based MMO is something that I can actually enjoy wrap my arms around. When I played other MMO's (Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, World of Warcraft) I enjoyed them to a certain degree by all the time I played them I would always tell my friends that one day I hoped there would be a D&D based MMO. As we all know most fantasy based games of any kind were inspired by D&D. So it is only logic that playing something based on the foundation of fantasy gaming would be desired.

Overall I think Turbine has done a good job but there has been some mis-steps in my opinion.
1) Going free to play (f2p) - I understand that based on what was happening with Turbine at the time that going f2p was the best marketing and business decision. I enjoy the large influx of players overall. One of the consequences though is that it has brought in a large population of players that kow nothing about D&D and players that expect uber equipment at lower levels. (i.e. winter games, new House D, P & K content, etc...) This is not good as now more and more the game is moving to a loot only system taking away from any story lines, group questin, etc...
2) Eberron vs Forgotten Realms - This has been brought up before so I will be light on this one. Most D&D players play D&D based games because of Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Ravenloft, etc... The one thing allof those worlds have in common is that they are not some hybrid of fantasy/sci-fi or cyber punk as Eberron is with warforge, steam pipes, etc...
3) Difficulty Settings - This just flat out needs to be revisited. The reason we have difficulty levels is for various levels of player based preferences and I applaud this. But the nerfing or dumbing down of quests ran on elite or epic is just flat out ridiculous. When epic first came out it was nearly perfect in my opinion. Then came the nerfing of traps, saves, etc... for monsters. HELLO this is suppose to be epic. I feel elite should be the harder than it is as well.

I will play DDO Unlimited for some time to come as I enjoy it very much overall. However if a solid MMO based on FR ever comes out I would have to seriously consider it as this is what I had hoped DDO would have chosen.

+1 rep for OP for bringing this topic up.

[Lundivar]

Been playing DDO for years on & off, and DND 15 years (YIKES!) before that, and Ebberon is just that, a different world setup. There is some background lore, but a lot more work should be put into it from a writing standpoint.

Unfortunately I'd be very surprised for the new Neverwinter to be any good with the Dev team behind that one, or at least it probably will be even more unfinished when it comes out than DDO was when it first came out, and that was pretty bad... actually it was REALLY bad...

An lot of stuff is still broken in DDO, but it's actually fun to play, or at least talk with people while grinding if nothing else.

I want NW to be good, but I don't see it happening....


L.

[Yshkabibble]

1) Going free to play (f2p) - I understand that based on what was happening with Turbine at the time that going f2p was the best marketing and business decision. I enjoy the large influx of players overall. One of the consequences though is that it has brought in a large population of players that kow nothing about D&D and players that expect uber equipment at lower levels. (i.e. winter games, new House D, P & K content, etc...) This is not good as now more and more the game is moving to a loot only system taking away from any story lines, group questin, etc...[/U]
2.


Going free to play saved this game. You would have had a tiny fraction of the updates that we have gotten if there was no free to play. I could care less if someone plays the game that knows nothing about D&D. This is a game based on D&D.

[grodon9999]

The game mechanics changes were all responses to the stupid AI. If Neverwinter has smarter AI who knows . . .

[Schwarzie]

My biggest Contra for Neverwinter would be the 4.0 Ruleset. I dont like it. But well, my biggest gripe is the nonexistant multiclassing, and since DDO has a nonexistant multiclassing (at least in a 3.5 sense which still is THE reference for doing multiclassing right [in my optionion of course]) that wont be a matter.

Next point could be the active combat. If this Neverwinter employs the same combat System Neverwinder Nights does it wont be a suitable substitute.

[IronClan]

I never understood the fascination with Forgotten Realms...

Greyhawk came first and included many if not almost EVERY medieval fantasy convention and did it before FR, and in a more interesting more intriguing way less generic way.

Because D&D had it's own built in mini campaign setting that started to evolve in the boxed sets (and the magazine); there were literally TWO "generic" medieval fantasy settings ALREADY before FR came out, as yet another generic medieval fantasy setting. Then Dragonlance came out, medieval HIGH fantasy with some Dragon Riders of Pern mixed in. Darksun was original and highly inspired as was Eberron...

To me FR is just the most generic euro-medieval centric campaign setting...

Now that wouldn't stop me from calling NWN the best adaptation of D&D to a computer ever. It was so despite the highly generic setting.

[yawumpus]

As far as Nevewinter Online I am skeptical. Cryptic games generally I have not liked, and if they stick to the same tired WOW style combat of two people standing in a spot smacking each other until one dies (with the occasional "special attack") meh.....

If they copied DDO combat, had fun interesting content, I would check it out for sure.

Hint, they are based on 4e. Where do you think Hasbro got that system?

[Robi3.0]

The Neverwinter Nights game is not going to be an MMO. It will be a Multi-player co-op game. So say good bye to a persistent world pick up group and the ability to play with people regardless of the time of day.

On top of that they are thinking about charging a month fee to use the service on top of what you payed for the game. So your going to have premium MMO fees with almost no MMO benefits.

Cryptic is also developing it so it is anyone guess if they are going to screw it up. It is highly likely that the will since that has been their MO lately.

If what you dislike about DDO is how they restrict you ability to multi class and take PrCs your going to have even less love for 4e as you can't do true multi-classing, and there is is no such thing as PrCs in 4e. Instead you get paragon and epic paths. How DDO handles PrE would be consider extremely flexible compared to 4e paths.

I am interested in Neverwinter Nights don't get me wrong, and I actually love 4e. I seriously doubt that there is a snowball's chance in hell that it will kill DDO.

EDIT: On further thinking I suppose it could have an online lobby like fsp game or Diablo, so some of my point in the not an MMO section may be invalid.

[ToKu]

The biggest issue with this game is overpowered items and grind in my opinion. So, on that point I agree. In the old days you get could get named items as quest rewards that competed well with the best items in the game. This kept the divide between casual and non-casual players close.

Now with reincarnation, and huge disparity in grind items vs. easy to get items there is too large of a gap.

I liked the game better when player skill and build were the most important things, and the gear was secondary. I just find that more interesting personally. I do not like 36 point builds, past life feats, and all that stuff. The problem is this at the heart is a grouping game, and the disparity is so great between different players that they cannot really even group together in most cases with each contributing.

As far as Nevewinter Online I am skeptical. Cryptic games generally I have not liked, and if they stick to the same tired WOW style combat of two people standing in a spot smacking each other until one dies (with the occasional "special attack") meh.....

If they copied DDO combat, had fun interesting content, I would check it out for sure.

Without an open ended end game that relies heavily on the community to support, "the grind" is the only way to keep players playing an MMO. Hell even those with open ended community driven content have the grind still. Eve Online, Ultima Online? You bet there was still the grind.

The Grid and MMO's go hand in hand. Without the never attainable carrot on the stick MMO's become a game with a set lifespan.

I would like to see a Forgotten Realms MMO mainly because I know the world well, I would be horrified to see it done poorly though which is almost assured. I think Ravenloft would actually make a fun MMO, even funner if it was catered to the smaller nice hardcore crowd and kept challenging and dark.

[Missing_Minds]

The Neverwinter Nights game is not going to be an MMO. It will be a Multi-player co-op game. So say good bye to a persistent world pick up group and the ability to play with people regardless of the time of day.

I was going to say, compare an MMO to DDO, and DDO really is a Multi player co-op with a pretty good party creation system.

[Robi3.0]

I was going to say, compare an MMO to DDO, and DDO really is a Multi player co-op with a pretty good party creation system.

Well, that is true to a point. I have never played the new Neverwinter Night game, but in order for it to be less MMOy then DDO you would have to take everything that wasn't a dungeon instance out of the game. Then add a menu base game lobby were you would Then find a group or meet up thing your friend, and load directly into the beginning of the dungeon. Pure speculation I know, but what would have to be different in order to warrant Cryptic going out of there way to make sure people knew it wasn't an MMO.

[Jakarr]

Oh gah The Neverwinter Nights MMO will be 4E...

*goes to cry in a corner*

*Jakarr walks back and wipes away the tears*

*cries again....*

On another note Forgotten Realms vs Eberron

I find it very refreshing to play in Eberron instead of Forgotten Realms for once, Hi-fantasy, steampunk, Sci-fi(dont know where ya got this from but Warforge are more like sentinel golems) I'v always played in Forgotten Realms pnp and the other video games and I am enjoying the differences Eberron has.

The other thing is imo its hard enough to do a little balancing act between classes when it comes to Dnd without a real DM. Think of all those overpowered prestige classes and ablities that Turbine has had to turn into some more accommodating for a MMO. So far I think Turbine has done fine for turing Dnd into a MMO sure they could tun the op loot down a little but as for the grinding for GS i'm sry but you really dont need 2 GS weapons and 2 gs Items all T3 to be effective, its a system brought in meant to give some more life into the game.

[Fomori]

2) Eberron vs Forgotten Realms - This has been brought up before so I will be light on this one. Most D&D players play D&D based games because of Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Ravenloft, etc... The one thing allof those worlds have in common is that they are not some hybrid of fantasy/sci-fi or cyber punk as Eberron is with warforge, steam pipes, etc...[/COLOR]
I highly disagree that this was a misstep.

First off those campaign worlds are licensed and I'm sure Turbine couldn't, or wouldn't, get the license to Forgotten Realms. Its the most popular setting amongst casual DnD players because of Drizzt and that it. The more dedicated PnP players preferred a unique setting created by their DM or the more interesting settings of Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Dragonlance, or even the orginal setting Greyhawk. Forgotten Realms is the 'fallback' setting for poor DM's.

Second Ebberon is a newer campaign setting and is stull mutable in the eyes of the DnD community. Thus if you went Forgotten Realms you better stick 100% to the existing lore or their will be outcries of ruining it. Ebberon doesnt have that DnD community issue. Sure their might be some that do but for the most part Turbine might even be able to influence campaign material with their MMO content.

That is why Eberron is much better choice than Forgotten Realms.

[dkyle]

But well, my biggest gripe is the nonexistant multiclassing, and since DDO has a nonexistant multiclassing (at least in a 3.5 sense which still is THE reference for doing multiclassing right [in my optionion of course]) that wont be a matter.

3.5's multi-classing had tremendous flexibility, but was horribly imbalanced. In a PnP campaign, the DM can adapt with banning material or house-ruling it, or otherwise drop a hammer on ridiculous builds. In an MMO, a balanced system is much more important, as any "DM adjustments" are going to be game-wide nerfs, which anger the players and engender an environment of uncertainty.

DDO's been a bit nerf-happy lately as it is. It would be far worse with a faithful rendition of 3.5's multi-classing.

[Nebless]

and last but not least, the LORE. Yeah. If you've ever had any exposure to the Forgotten Realms and the world of Faerûn, there'll be little to relate to in Eberron Unlimited....Turbine wanted a Setting that wasn't tied down by a TON of already-existing conventions, so they could have more creative room to work with in terms of an MMO, but now, any story-arcs they put out and any new NPCs they introduce, have about as much intrigue and charisma as a dull signboard.


- Atari owns D&D (or atleast a part of it). WotC owns Eberron. Going with Eberron had nothing to do with Turbine not wanting to be tied to existing conventions. WotC was hyping their new campaign and Turbine bought the rights to use it. That's why this is Eberron and not something else.


MEANWHILE, we have another D&D multilpayer game coming up on the horizon:
Neverwinter (http://www.playneverwinter.com)

..a psuedo-MMO (according to its developers, probably just as a legal defense against Turbine's exclusive rights to running a D&D MMO)

- As stated above; Turbine doesn't have exclusive rights to D&D.

[flynnjsw]

My 2ep (how many people remember THAT denomination of coin?)

I am tired of FR. It has been done into the ground. I like the fact that DDO went with Ebberon because it was NOT Faerun. Yes, the original NWN is installed on my computer, and I actually play it taking breaks from DDO, but I tend to play user created mods based on worlds other than FR like Ravenloft or Greyhawk. As several others have said, if they were to release a MMO based on either of those worlds with the same combat as DDO has, then they would have REAL competition. Even if Paizo would work with a good developer to do a Pathfinder MMO, then it would be real competition.

If all you know and love is the Realms, then maybe the new Neverwinter game is going to be for you. If you prefer things that are not FR though, DDO is still going to be better.

[IronClan]

If I play DDO with the acceptance (willing suspension of disbelief) that it has to feel like a D&D amusment park, so casual players will spend money on it to keep the game populated; that helps a lot but I still hold the perhaps irrational hope that a better D&D multiplayer game will come out. I agree with the OP. DDO gets some things so wrong that they pretty much constantly "rub" on my sense of what made D&D fun. Such as exploring dungeons with a sense of fear and anticipation of what may be around the corner, trying to work out WHAT TO DO and piece together what is going on (because it matters).

In DDO they've replaced the "Dungeon Crawl" with the "Dungeon cast and blast" that is blast through it at break neck speed. Don't have time to read the quest text? That's okay the quest entrance is right next to him and nothing inside will require reading the text...

DDO quest givers are like ticket takers at an amusement park...

DDO also got a lot really right too. Grouping and Quest design is wonderful (if I willingly suspend my dislike of "Signal Crystals" in every quest.... But rules adherence is so sloppy in some areas that NWN got perfectly that it falls short.

Irrational hope or not I will check out Neverwinter in the hopes that they follow that mold enough to capture and improve on what made NWN's the best P&P simulation ever. I say irrational because I too know the parties that will develop it are not Bioware, and in fact are the polar opposite of Bioware... Even NWN2 largely failed due to the use of a third party developer.

[grodon9999]

Over the past year I've grown to tolerate Eberon, it still doesn't feel like "home." The combat system is what keeps me here.

[Robi3.0]

- As stated above; Turbine doesn't have exclusive rights to D&D.

Atari owns a license to exclusively produce DnD video game on the behalf of WotC. WotC own DnD exclusive since the late 80 earlier 90 when TSR folded and WotC brought them for their IPs.

Atari has no claim to DnD other them the right to make video games base on the IP till
something like 2024.

Edit to add more ****.
Atari sub-licensed DnD to Turbine at one point giving them exclusive right to produce DnD based MMOs till 2016. At some point during the development Turbine made a second agreement with Atari that forfeited their exclusive rights to DnD based MMOs. then last year Turbine sued Atari for a bunch of reasons. I have to wonder if an agreement has been made yet if it also included giving Turbine their exclusive right to DnD MMOs. That would be a good reason why the new Neverwinter nights game is not an MMO.

[Wren666]

- As stated above; Turbine doesn't have exclusive rights to D&D.Not D&D, but an "MMO" based on D&D, which I thought was something decided between Atari & Turbine, and is the reason why Cryptic seem to be going out of their way to insist that Neverwinter will not be an "MMO," whatever that means.

[MrkGrismer]

As another person that has been playing D&D since the beginning I have to agree with others that the Forgotten Realms is my least favorite setting. Eberron is not my favorite either, but the setting isn't going to make an MMO (or quasi-MMO), it is the story and the gameplay. The first NWN did great with both, whether the Cryptic one will or will not remains to be seen. All people can do right now is speculate.

[Missing_Minds]

Well, that is true to a point. I have never played the new Neverwinter Night game, but in order for it to be less MMOy then DDO you would have to take everything that wasn't a dungeon instance out of the game. Then add a menu base game lobby were you would Then find a group or meet up thing your friend, and load directly into the beginning of the dungeon. Pure speculation I know, but what would have to be different in order to warrant Cryptic going out of there way to make sure people knew it wasn't an MMO.

It could be they are trying that rhetoric to avoid lawsuits? I don't know. If Cryptic sticks in any mass instance like DDO has marketplaces, it is an MMO as last I heard DDO was classified as an MMO as well.


My 2ep (how many people remember THAT denomination of coin?)

electrum wasn't it? ... 5 silver, half a gold or some such?
I like Faerun honestly.... back in the day of 2.0. Then they started to throw in spell jamming, psionics, and all this other junk right before 3.0 hit the fan(tasy) books. I stopped caring about the place at that point.

[MrkGrismer]

Atari sub-licensed DnD to Turbine at one point giving them exclusive right to produce DnD based MMOs till 2016. At some point during the development Turbine made a second agreement with Atari that forfeited their exclusive rights to DnD based MMOs. then last year Turbine sued Atari for a bunch of reasons. I have to wonder if an agreement has been made yet if it also included giving Turbine their exclusive right to DnD MMOs. That would be a good reason why the new Neverwinter nights game is not an MMO.

The last thing I read on this was that there was an out-of-court settlement with Atari when WB bought Turbine. I don't know if any details where ever released. Probably not since typically out-of-court means 'hush-hush'.

[Alavatar]

I would love a Darksun (can anyone say "inspired by Conan"?) MMO that is similar to DDO. :D Age of Conan was interesting, but lacked the game-play that I have come to love in DDO, so a Darksun version of DDO would make my day!

[flynnjsw]

I would love a Darksun (can anyone say "inspired by Conan"?) MMO that is similar to DDO. :D Age of Conan was interesting, but lacked the game-play that I have come to love in DDO, so a Darksun version of DDO would make my day!

While I would not mind a Dark Sun game, I would imagine that psionics would be tough in a video game unless they did it like the illithids in DDO where it just looks like a spell.

[IronClan]

I was going to say, compare an MMO to DDO, and DDO really is a Multi player co-op with a pretty good party creation system.

No doubt, the fact that i might run past someone i grouped with last week in the marketplace does not really make DDO a true MMO... In fact the game feels like a FPS shooter or Diablo with a lobby that can be run around inside. Hell DDO doesn't so much as make it easy to tell what people are chatting about (no chat text above the character) so there's not even a reason to "hang out" near the bank as with so many other MMO's (UO's brit bank)

NWN had perssitent worlds, the best and most long lasting of which were more far more MMORPG than DDO... with emphasis on the "RPG" part. Exploration, crawling through dungeons, role playing characters...

In fact if you take the ORIGINAL intent of MMORPG games or the "spirit" of what they were trying to do. Which was multiplayer role playing adventures in a setting where you got to interact with and know everyone and everyone knew you. Where your characters could be "legendary" or "famous"or "infamous" (could be known and have a reputation or heroic status earned within the context of the game) NWN was perhaps more of a TRUE MMORPG than any of the subscription based MMO's.

If your definition of MMORPG is "1000 or more players grinding memorized quests for items that make it easier to grind the next quest, for items that make it easier to grind the next quest, for items that make it easier to grind the last quest in the game, for items that make it trivial to grind a previous quest.... Yawn... sorry....

[Chai]

Neverwinter being based on 4e rules is perfect, since 4e rules are reverse engineered MMOs anyhow, attempting to market DnD to people whose first expusure to fantasy gaming was MMOs in the first place. I think that ruleset works better in a real time video game than it does in turn based PnP for this very reason.

That being said, when the server building kits are released, I want one. I set up a PW in NWN 1 and it was one of the funnest video game experiences I had to date.

I am thinking a permadeath server might be in order here with a lower magic item level campaign. I was not fond of the NWN 1 servers where everyone was walking around with 2d6 of every type of elemental and alignment burst on the same +10 weapon.

I am also thinking of a zombie survival server, or maybe even a zombie surival zone on the PD server. Dont get bit, heh.

[Mr_Ed7]

I would have preferred a more traditional D&D setting, that being said; I do enjoy the different "steam-punk" atmosphere that was created.

D&D needs to return to its roots, 4E will never be D&D to many people.

I believe the true Dungeons & Dragons EXPERIENCE that many of us felt in the 70's & 80's will come someday. It would have to include "choose your own adventure" aspects where the character's actions and ALIGNMENT actually affect the outcome of the quest...and random MAPS, TRAPS, & ENCOUNTERS.

ORKING out for a quarter of a century!

[IronClan]

My 2ep (how many people remember THAT denomination of coin?)

I am tired of FR. It has been done into the ground. I like the fact that DDO went with Ebberon because it was NOT Faerun. Yes, the original NWN is installed on my computer, and I actually play it taking breaks from DDO.

Electrum, and I agree FR is done to death, however the user created potential in a new Neverwinter game is enough to let me ignore that aspect... Again it;'s being made by a company with a terrible track record so unless they improve greatly Neverwinter will be just another footnote... Like Decent to Undermountain, or Ruins of Myth Drannor.

I also feel the Eberron setting is helping keep my interest in DDO... not knowing the lore makes things fresh... The whole ancient Giants versus Dragons thing and the jungle setting instead of snowy eastern european germanic house filled medieval *snore* <wakes up> wha? oh um what was I saying? Oh yeah Eberron is refreshing.

[Wren666]

Over the past year I've grown to tolerate Eberon, it still doesn't feel like "home."Verily, this. The point where I began to like Eberron was during the Necropolis arc, with the whole Lady Vol (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Lady_Vol) backstory to it. Here's hoping they're explore it further in some future high-level undead-bashing Adventure Pack :p


I would love a Darksun (can anyone say "inspired by Conan"?) MMO that is similar to DDO. :D Age of Conan was interesting, but lacked the game-play that I have come to love in DDO, so a Darksun version of DDO would make my day!+1. I loved Dark Sun :) and hopefully the Spellplague'd world of the 4th Edition will evoke a similar atmosphere of post-apocalyptic high-fantasy in the Neverwinter game as well. Hopefully.


My 2ep (how many people remember THAT denomination of coin?)What was EP? :D I can't think of any material starting with E right now..... :(

EDIT: AHHHHH Electrum :D didn't see IronClan's post above ^^

[Natashaelle]

In This Issue: Have Turbine painted themselves into a corner?

Woh ... Short answer to that question IMHO = "Nope" :D

But there's a fair amount in your post that I disagree with, which I'll handle point by point.


I mean, have they deviated from "pen and paper" rules so much, that introducing any more elements from D&D becomes increasingly awkward because they have it to make them play nicely with a whole bunch of existing stuff that isn't D&D..

Prestige Classes, Multi-Classing, Spells, Feats, the combat system, Crafting, even the way Adventures are presented...

As far as I can tell, you're posting from a position of relative inexperience, which I wouldn't normally say, but you've practically admitted so much yourself later on in your post.

Nobody runs D&D completely by the book, and nobody ever has, at *least* since the publication of the original 1st Edition AD&D Unearthed Arcana. It was *possible* to play D&D completely by the book, when there was only the 1st edition PH, DMG, and MM that you could use (plus Deities & Demigods, Fiend Folio, blablabla) ; but that was a *VERY* long time ago...

As things stand today, every GM and anyone publishing or organising any D&D game needs to make some design choices, even if it's just going to be deciding which sections of rules not to use.

It's unfair to take Turbine to task for doing exactly that. Also, IMO, DDO is the closest in *spirit* to D&D of any D&D-based computer game I've seen so far (but then again, I haven't seen them all).

Turbine has successfully used the D&D rules, with a certain number of house rules, to present a setting where a certain type of game, with a certain style, can be played collaboratively online.

Regarding your concerns that there has been too much deviation, I respectfully disagree -- the core games system elements are untouched, even though some of them have certainly been heavily tweaked for MMO purposes. I think that you have exaggerated the actual importance of some fairly superficial system differences between D&D and DDO.

Prestige Classes were shoehorned into D&D by, I believe, Peter Adkison (from his own house rules), and they are IMHO quite flawed as a game system. I *far* prefer the DDO variant of Action Points and Enhancements, including PrE, as providing MUCH more robust game balance than the original versions.

I don't understand your issues with multi-classing -- DDO has taken the same simple approach to it that I'd guess about 70% of fleshy GMs would take -- to completely ignore the overly complex aspects of multiclassing rules in D&D 3E as a waste of time and energy.

Spells ? Very hard to balance completely in any non-GM-moderated game, very hard to do the coding for, and IMO Turbine are doing a good job with them.

Feats. Ditto.

The combat system -- the D&D combat system starts breaking down at about 18th level or so, because disparity between player characters can become game breaking in some circumstances, if you just play by the book. There are various different ways to solve this issue, and I have no problems whatsoever with the way that Turbine has chosen to do so.

Crafting -- the D&D 3E crafting rules are not very good, are they -- yes, they could be successfully adapted into a system for a non-MMO computer game, but I do not believe any such adaptation would be successful in DDO. Mainly for style reasons I think. Strong focus on crafting just *isn't* a feature of D&D, nor should it be in DDO, IMO. It's true that DDO crafting has been a little hit or miss ; but OTOH, the systems that they *have* decided to implement do appear to be moving incrementally closer to a certain level of maturity.


Now, I never played any MMO before DDO went Free-To-Play last year. ...

and yeah I've never actually participated in an actual tabletop PnP session either,

You see, this is what I mean when I mention lack of experience ...

Every competent GM makes exactly the same *kinds* of decisions about what he wants in his game, both rules-wise and style-wise, as Turbine. They're not necessarily the *same* decisions ; but they're decisions about the same range of choices.

Now clearly, there will always be people who disagree with some decisions ; fundamentally though, the existence of such decisions is a non-problem, IMO.


Anyways, a year later, I'm still tripping up on the little surprises that DDO keeps throwing at us, by way of how all sorts of things work differently when compared to D&D 3.5E. Most of those changes do make sense in a real-time 3D environment, but still more of those quirks are actually just locking the game further into that proverbial corner;

What corner ?

I'm sorry but this just doesn't make sense to me...

If all that you're saying is that you personally disagree with some design choices made by Turbine, well, fair enough, you most certainly have that entitlement -- but if you're suggesting that Turbine is heading up some kind of blind alley, then I would emphatically disagree with you. I think that Turbine has a clear path ahead to keep on developing the game towards some reasonably open-ended design goals.


for example:

Prestige Classes vs. Enhancements: I believe Prestige Enhancements were introduced at a time when the Level Cap was lower than 20 and there was no mechanism for Character Respecs in place, so it would have been very costly (and frustrating) for players to risk taking an irreversible Character Level in a different Class. But now that we have all sorts of Reincarnation and plenty of Leveling room to dabble in different classes, we're still stuck with the redheaded stepchild that is Enhancements, forever more. :rolleyes:


The Enhancements system constitutes some very elegant game design in my opinion, and I personally view it as being perhaps THE most successful innovation of DDO.



Greensteel: They tried to introduce a comprehensive system of Crafting, but instead ended up locking a large concentration of the playerbase and playtime into a very small subset of the game's overall content (just 4 or 5 Quests.) Nevermind the mindnumbingly-excessive repetitions (the "grind") involved.

I think everyone knows that crafting could be improved, but then again it's still a work in progress -- I can't really see how work in progress = painting yourself into a corner. (?)


and last but not least, the LORE. Yeah. If you've ever had any exposure to the Forgotten Realms and the world of Faerûn, there'll be little to relate to in Eberron Unlimited. Even if your only introduction to D&D's premier campaign setting was R.A. Salvatore's books, DDO's Drow alone will elicit an alienating "WT*?" response - There's very little to care about here if you're in it for the lore, even without all the redundant dialog and non-existent storytelling (which, as I understand, is one area WoW actually excels in.) This is another example of painting oneself into a corner: Turbine wanted a Setting that wasn't tied down by a TON of already-existing conventions, so they could have more creative room to work with in terms of an MMO, but now, any story-arcs they put out and any new NPCs they introduce, have about as much intrigue and charisma as a dull signboard.

?????

I'll quote someone else's response, that I quite agree with : "As far as the lore goes, being a long-time PnP player, I've played in many home-brew campaigns in the last 20+ years, so I'm used to adapting to races and worlds that don't conform to the official materials. I think most PnP players would agree that this is a non-issue."

Yepsie, most RPG gamers would consider this to be a complete non-issue.

Quite apart from the fact that there are quite a few of us more veteran gamers that utterly despise the Forgotten Realms setting... and "premier campaign setting" ?? seriously ??? Never heard of Blackmoor or Greyhawk have you ??

Eberron is far closer in tone to those original D&D/AD&D game settings than FR will ever be, and I think it was a wise choice on Turbine & WotC's part to use it as the setting for DDO, *whatever* the rights imperatives may have been...


MEANWHILE, we have another D&D multilpayer game coming up on the horizon:
Neverwinter (http://www.playneverwinter.com)

... which I, personally, will studiously avoid. The Forgotten Realms/Atari combination just makes me feel ... queasy ... :p


*ensuing cries of lament against 4E* ...Ah yes, come now; with the abomination (in regards to lore and rules-compliance) that DDO has evolved into, and the identity-crisis of Eberron (what is it; high-fantasy, steampunk, sci-fi - all of them?) the haters really don't have much call to rage on 4E.

rage ? you exaggerate -- 4E is a well-designed game ; the problem with it is that it's not the same game as D&D, it just happens to have been released under that brand name.

It's a miniatures game with some RPG elements, rather than being an actual RPG, as 1st-3rd editions were.


In any case, I for one am excited for this fresh chance to get a D&D multiplayer game right - that is, with better adherence to familiar rules and world-settings.

4E, familiar rules ??? Forgotten Realms, familiar settings ??? YD&DMV ... :D

I've never, and will never, use either of them myself...


Even if Neverwinter fails to live up to our expectations, it may, just may, push Turbine (or some other developer) enough to consider a DDO II, maybe even call it Faerun Forever ;)

urghhh !!! they do that, they lose me as a customer.

[Natashaelle]

3.5's multi-classing had tremendous flexibility, but was horribly imbalanced.

It was imbalanced mainly due to the Prestige Classes, and some poorly imagined character classes that were officially published outside of the core rules -- and because the rules meant to be used as a limitation to multiclassing were very shoddy and weak, so that players and GMs were left with a strong temptation to just completely ignore them. As Turbine has, btw...

[Chai]

If your definition of MMORPG is "1000 or more players grinding memorized quests for items that make it easier to grind the next quest, for items that make it easier to grind the next quest, for items that make it easier to grind the last quest in the game, for items that make it trivial to grind a previous quest.... Yawn... sorry....

Yeap exactly.

Our PW in NWN1 had as many as 15 random maps for each zone in point. Each random map had random trap points where traps might be located.

Example:

You roll up a bunch of newbies and walk into the goblin cave. You clear out the cave, loot their treasure, then leave. Later on you walk back into the same cave - expecting to see the same thing. Woah, theres a bunch of blast points and holes in the cave wall, and the kobolds and goblins are now at war. Your rogue starts picking up traps (kobolds are the better trap making species, and they trapped the hallways to make sure they arent followed) - now the kobolds are trying to fight you off as well as the goblins. You are overwhelmed so you leave after running out of comsumables. A few hours later you walk into the same cave. Now the kobolds have taken hold, but not driven the goblins completely out. There are level 2 orcs bossing the level .5 and level 1 kobolds around. Some of the blasted hallways are blocked completely, and some are trapped.

The orcs have wolves as pets who can smell your approach. You wont be able to stealth out like you did last time. There is no recall button. If you get in there arse deep in trouble and want to exit, you have to make it to the exit. Mobs in NWN could zone through the exit points and continue to follow you. Train to zone? This aint EQ. The zone point isnt salvation. Just when you turn to flee, the corpses of the kobolds rise as .5 level zombies behind you. Gimme some sugar baby!! Only you dont have a shotgun with endless rounds. Did you remember to buy a slashing weapon before venturing into the cave?

Each time you walk into this zone point, which map will you get? Which traps will you get? Which races will you encounter? It took me longer than a year to develope this server, but when it was done, we had over 700 accounts, over 100 zone in points, with anywhere between 5 to 15 random maps with random traps and random same level races and NPCs that could load for each. The low level zones were just as interesting as the high level zones.

Metagaming through the same sheist over and over again? Not on my watch, heh. You could play the same zone point for weeks and not encounter the same combinations twice over.

[Natashaelle]

- Atari owns D&D (or atleast a part of it). WotC owns Eberron.

Atari does not own any part of D&D, they simply have a currently ongoing license from WotC for D&D computer games.

Atari has on occasion claimed, rather arrogantly, that D&D is an Atari "property" -- in fact, D&D is a Hasbro/WotC property.

[Teldurn]

Neverwinter being based on 4e rules is perfect, since 4e rules are reverse engineered MMOs anyhow, attempting to market DnD to people whose first expusure to fantasy gaming was MMOs in the first place. I think that ruleset works better in a real time video game than it does in turn based PnP for this very reason.

That being said, when the server building kits are released, I want one. I set up a PW in NWN 1 and it was one of the funnest video game experiences I had to date.

I am thinking a permadeath server might be in order here with a lower magic item level campaign. I was not fond of the NWN 1 servers where everyone was walking around with 2d6 of every type of elemental and alignment burst on the same +10 weapon.

I am also thinking of a zombie survival server, or maybe even a zombie surival zone on the PD server. Dont get bit, heh.
I hope they release server kits. I played on a NWN2 PW for a bit, and it definitely scratched that roleplaying itch. My particular PW was concentrating on recreating all the different areas in Faerun (the setting of which I don't particularly mind, but also feel it's overdone), with each area being a different interconnected server (Western Heartlands, The Silver Marches, Cormyr, Amn, etc.)

There was no randomness to the maps, unfortunately, but it was still lots of fun.

Yeap exactly.

Our PW in NWN1 had as many as 15 random maps for each zone in point. Each random map had random trap points where traps might be located.

Example:

You roll up a bunch of newbies and walk into the goblin cave. You clear out the cave, loot their treasure, then leave. Later on you walk back into the same cave - expecting to see the same thing. Woah, theres a bunch of blast points and holes in the cave wall, and the kobolds and goblins are now at war. Your rogue starts picking up traps (kobolds are the better trap making species, and they trapped the hallways to make sure they arent followed) - now the kobolds are trying to fight you off as well as the goblins. You are overwhelmed so you leave after running out of comsumables. A few hours later you walk into the same cave. Now the kobolds have taken hold, but not driven the goblins completely out. There are level 2 orcs bossing the level .5 and level 1 kobolds around. Some of the blasted hallways are blocked completely, and some are trapped.

The orcs have wolves as pets who can smell your approach. You wont be able to stealth out like you did last time. There is no recall button. If you get in there arse deep in trouble and want to exit, you have to make it to the exit. Mobs in NWN could zone through the exit points and continue to follow you. Train to zone? This aint EQ. The zone point isnt salvation. Just when you turn to flee, the corpses of the kobolds rise as .5 level zombies behind you. Gimme some sugar baby!! Only you dont have a shotgun with endless rounds. Did you remember to buy a slashing weapon before venturing into the cave?

Each time you walk into this zone point, which map will you get? Which traps will you get? Which races will you encounter? It took me longer than a year to develope this server, but when it was done, we had over 700 accounts, over 100 zone in points, with anywhere between 5 to 15 random maps with random traps and random same level races and NPCs that could load for each. The low level zones were just as interesting as the high level zones.

Metagaming through the same sheist over and over again? Not on my watch, heh. You could play the same zone point for weeks and not encounter the same combinations twice over.

I AM SO PLAYING ON YOUR PW!! <3 :D

[flynnjsw]

Electrum, and I agree FR is done to death, however the user created potential in a new Neverwinter game is enough to let me ignore that aspect... Again it;'s being made by a company with a terrible track record so unless they improve greatly Neverwinter will be just another footnote... Like Decent to Undermountain, or Ruins of Myth Drannor.

I also feel the Eberron setting is helping keep my interest in DDO... not knowing the lore makes things fresh... The whole ancient Giants versus Dragons thing and the jungle setting instead of snowy eastern european germanic house filled medieval *snore* <wakes up> wha? oh um what was I saying? Oh yeah Eberron is refreshing.

You bring up, and then its repeated a couple times, a fair point. The user created content IS what made NWN. I have not seen any evidence however that the new game is going to do the same thing. If it does, then maybe it can be redeemed. If it does not, then it's just "another" FR game.

[Schmoe]

I'll play Turbine-perverted 3.5 before I play 4th ed.

[Dakotahorn]

I'm not really trying to be a jerk here or troll.... but just sayng honestly I couldn't get through your post.... I guess I'm just too OCD.

Less gray please

[Madgg66]

I would love a Darksun (can anyone say "inspired by Conan"?) MMO that is similar to DDO. :D Age of Conan was interesting, but lacked the game-play that I have come to love in DDO, so a Darksun version of DDO would make my day!

While it may be tough to implement Darksun would offer a refreshing change to the D&D Crpg genre.
(I still have the Floppy Disks for Wake of the Ravager lying around some where)

[Lyria]

Neverwinter is being developed by Cryptic, the god-awful dev team that birthed CO and ST:O onto the world. Both games were rushed out at least 6 months too early, had massive gameplay/balance changes literally up to the moment of launch (CO in particular took a massive, massive nerf to exp and income the day of launch, which resulted in players literally having to do every single quest in the game plus do a ton of grinding in order to reach the level cap, due to the lack of content).

I wouldn't trust Cryptic to make a freaking SCREENSAVER program, let alone something like a D&D game.

It's going to be horrible, and I'm not touching it.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

IMO, DDO is fantastic. The changes from P&P were necessary to make a dynamic and thrilling MMO senario.

Just how much fun would it be to play a Sorc who could only cast one Fire Wall a day and would get yelled at if he used it cause of friendly fire?

Just how much fun would it be to pull a plain jane +5 wep at lvl 20?

the Devs have done a great job.

Now, I do not like everything about it. But it has been way more fun to me than any D&D game before.

Neverwinter Nights was fun. But DDO has been a lot more fun.

(And 4E is horrible....and tailors to a group of players, and a money hungry company, that I do not like.)

[Thornton]

Yeap exactly.

Our PW in NWN1 had as many as 15 random maps for each zone in point. Each random map had random trap points where traps might be located.

Example:

You roll up a bunch of newbies and walk into the goblin cave. You clear out the cave, loot their treasure, then leave. Later on you walk back into the same cave - expecting to see the same thing. Woah, theres a bunch of blast points and holes in the cave wall, and the kobolds and goblins are now at war. Your rogue starts picking up traps (kobolds are the better trap making species, and they trapped the hallways to make sure they arent followed) - now the kobolds are trying to fight you off as well as the goblins. You are overwhelmed so you leave after running out of comsumables. A few hours later you walk into the same cave. Now the kobolds have taken hold, but not driven the goblins completely out. There are level 2 orcs bossing the level .5 and level 1 kobolds around. Some of the blasted hallways are blocked completely, and some are trapped.

The orcs have wolves as pets who can smell your approach. You wont be able to stealth out like you did last time. There is no recall button. If you get in there arse deep in trouble and want to exit, you have to make it to the exit. Mobs in NWN could zone through the exit points and continue to follow you. Train to zone? This aint EQ. The zone point isnt salvation. Just when you turn to flee, the corpses of the kobolds rise as .5 level zombies behind you. Gimme some sugar baby!! Only you dont have a shotgun with endless rounds. Did you remember to buy a slashing weapon before venturing into the cave?

Each time you walk into this zone point, which map will you get? Which traps will you get? Which races will you encounter? It took me longer than a year to develope this server, but when it was done, we had over 700 accounts, over 100 zone in points, with anywhere between 5 to 15 random maps with random traps and random same level races and NPCs that could load for each. The low level zones were just as interesting as the high level zones.

Metagaming through the same sheist over and over again? Not on my watch, heh. You could play the same zone point for weeks and not encounter the same combinations twice over.

OMG please post if you make something similar (if it is possible) when the game releases. :)

[Chai]

Quite apart from the fact that there are quite a few of us more veteran gamers that utterly despise the Forgotten Realms setting... and "premier campaign setting" ?? seriously ??? Never heard of Blackmoor or Greyhawk have you ??

Eberron is far closer in tone to those original D&D/AD&D game settings than FR will ever be, and I think it was a wise choice on Turbine & WotC's part to use it as the setting for DDO, *whatever* the rights imperatives may have been... .

I think eberron is in the same boat FR was in in the late 80s early 90s. FR is currently an OLD universe that alot of novel authors gravitated to in the hayday of fantasy novel authoring during that time, due to the fact that the authors could create their own little nook in that universe as well as develope the characters and surrounding plot, in an uninterrupted fashion. The end result of that in MMOs of course, is all the the drizzt and entreri wanna bes, and TWF being the style of choice for the majority - which was not the case previous to FR and all the drow novels.

I really do like FR, but not the same FR that many of the kids who read the novels when they were 12 enjoy. I am more of a jarlaxle fan than a drizzt / entreri fan. The Salvatore books where the villians were the protagonists showed Salvatore maturing as an author. The last series where you think the "good guys" will prevail, goes south quickly - they get their backsides handed to them on a silver platter. People die.

The many good features FR has, are overshadowed by the fantasys of authors where supermodels fight evil in the abyss in bikini like armor and dont gain so much as a scratch for their efforts, then fall in love with crusty old Wizards old enough to be their grandfathers and live happily ever after. Due to this, many people overlook the more evil harpers, Szazz Tam, Cale - who is very Ridd-ick like, the Entreri back story, which was awesome, the Pirate King, and other well written material.

The issue with an FR video game is there is too much Canon to adhere to, and too many critics of it. If they make a drizzt every level 15 THF fighter can smack down like a fat kid on a school bus, the fan base will snicker. If they make an elminster who can be owned in three rounds of combat by the optimizers, while using khelban arunsun himself as a club to beat him with, hilarity will ensue on those types of issues. I can hear the critics shouts already.




rage ? you exaggerate -- 4E is a well-designed game ; the problem with it is that it's not the same game as D&D, it just happens to have been released under that brand name.

It's a miniatures game with some RPG elements, rather than being an actual RPG, as 1st-3rd editions were.


This is why I think 4e makes a better real time video game than it does a turn based PnP ruleset. It was designed in a reverse engineered fashion from MMOs themselves to market DnD to that crowd. Had they marketed this as Magic Sword instead of DnD I think people would develope their own opinions on it without having to hold it up to DnD as a comparison, because it doesnt compare to the previous 3 editions. The older crowd sees it for what it is - a marketing tool to attract the newer generation of RPGers whose first exposure to fantasy gaming is MMO cool down based game mechanics - which I feel are better experienced in real time and not as a turn based game on paper.

[diamabel]

...

Thoughts of other D&D CRPG/PnP fans on this?
[/COLOR]


I don't mind deviations from the rules (the rulebooks ain't no bible and unlike the ten commandments aren't set into stone ;) ). One of the strengths of D&D are the different campaign settings. If you're bored with one, switch to another. Dark Sun and Ravenloft CRPGs were my first contact with D&D. So my personal preference lies with these two Settings. Only later I came into contact with Forgotten Reals, Dragonlance, Greyhawk, Birthright, Planescape and finally Eberron.


What I am missing a little bit with DDO is stumbling onto books with little pieces of lore. You'll know what I mean if you played Baldur's Gate (and the other Inifinity Engine games) and Neverwinter Nights. In MMOs I sooner rather than later lose track of the lore. :(

Another thing that I had to adapt to when playing MMOs was that unlike in CRPGs spells with an area of effect will only work on opponents. You don't need to be careful when placing a fireball, web, cloud spell or lighning bolt. I understand that's because of the possibility of players griefing other players, but it's always refreshing to replay an older CRPG with this feature.



I wouldn't get too excited over the next D&D game from Atari/Cryptic. Companies are out to make money. Probably the game is going to inherit some MMO concepts (even if it may not be qualified as a 'true MMO'). That means gear progression will be part of the game play. Static content due to limited development time and to ensure a certain "quality" of the content. No consequences (besides the choice of gear or which guild to join) to your in-game actions/quest progression.

What I'd like to see in a future CRPG / MMORPG would be some kind of non-static content with NPCs enhancing the immersion and credibility of the campaign setting/world. And most of all a little bit more randomness (if you played civilization you'll know what I mean).

[KristovK]

Turbine painting themselves into a corner with DDO? Eh..maybe kinda sorta..if you consider being a fantasy based MMO using rules based on a pen and paper game that's mutable to fit the desires of whoever is in charge a corner.

You never played other MMOs and never played PnP, so your view on how things work in DDO are rather...off. As already stated, PnP rules were never set in stone, matter of fact, you are TOLD by Mr Gygax himself in the DMGs that the rules are a suggestion, not the LAW, and you should feel free to alter them or ignore them at will.

Eberron was actually given to Turbine to use by WoTC, that wasn't an option on Turbine's part, but it turned out good for Turbine. It was a new game setting when Turbine started, there's not a lot of preset **** to deal with like a FR setting. LOTS of big blank spots on the maps of Eberron that simply don't have stories and characters and history to have to work with/around. WoTC has worked with Turbine on the storyline, as there IS some history and lore to be aware of, and it's actually good stuff, well written and well concieved. Just as there are actually some rather excellent stories in DDO...if people could be assed to READ them. The Duality story for the Catacombs quest for example..great stuff, people should take the time to read it all but they don't. Delera's..another great story, usually ignored. And so on..there's lots of great writing taking place in DDO, people just can't be assed to spend time on READING stuff...shesh..you'd think it was a thinking man's game or something, come on already, lets KILL STUFF!

Atari and Cryptic are making NWN..again. Cryptics last few MMOs..which is a term I use with some...trepidation..aren't exactly gleaming examples of top notch work. I beta's STO, even played it a few months after it went live because of the EFFORT I saw Cryptic putting into STO during beta. Silly me huh? CO isn't any better..sadly. Cryptic has developed a wonderful game engine that can be altered to suit ANY world setting they want. It's a very good engine, and it's capable of producing some beautiful worlds. Sadly, that's where Cryptic seems to stop..they make a great looking world, they just can't figure out how to make things fun and put enough fun things in to keep you occupied for longer then a month. After that..well..it's pretty boring because you've hit cap multiple times in that month and see it all and done it all and well..that's IT. And that's for a CASUAL player..hardcore gamers hit that wall after a week. It's too bad really, because Cryptic HAS the people to do more, they just don't USE them.

Oh..and about NWN being tied into those new novels...STO was tied into a new novel as well. I actually got more out of the novel then the game, enjoyment-wise, as re-reading the novel a couple of times isn't boring.

Chai..what NWN PW did you run? I heard rumors of a PW doing what you describe, but could never find it.

[Junts]

Not only do the 4th edition rules blow, but the 4th edition Forgotten Realms campaign setting is a travesty, one that has discarded a lot of the lore and characters that made it most interesting and compelling as a continuous location. I would rather play the (relatively) flavorless Eberron setting (which, btw, wizards -mandated- ddo to use), which gives the DDO developers freedom to do anything they want storywise (as, in Eberron, adventures, and even novels, are not part of the setting's canon), than play a washed-out, 100 years in the future Toril with no Khelben, no Helm, and no Mystra.

Really, forgotten realms with no Mystra?

I can't think of a more iconically important character line in the entirety of the Forgotten Realms than Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight. The entire setting is built on the actions of that divinity.


Apparently you've never played MMOs: honestly, DDO does a fantastic job of adapting the ruleset to create a playable MMO. It's not gonig to follow the rules precisely. Those rules would create a terrible MMO game. If you want to play them, I suggest NWN/NWN2 and Baldur's gate I/II depending on your preference of 2nd or 3rd editon rules. Those games observe the rules faithfully and are able to do so in a way that works even in small-scale multiplayer.

[Missing_Minds]

Really, forgotten realms with no Mystra?

I can't think of a more iconically important character line in the entirety of the Forgotten Realms than Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight. The entire setting is built on the actions of that divinity.

Ah nuts, and here I was going to tease you about Ariel but you got the edit in there in time.

But the "lack" of her does make me wonder what happened with Shar and her shadow weave.

But beyond that with 4.0....

http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/ffn/index.php?date=2010-10-12
http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/ffn/strips/2010-10-12.jpg

and

http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/ffn/index.php?date=2010-10-14
http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/ffn/strips/2010-10-14.jpg


Can you imagine if cryptic worked with hasbro to make those cards usable in game?

[Junts]

Ah nuts, and here I was going to tease you about Ariel but you got the edit in there in time.

But the "lack" of her does make me wonder what happened with Shar and her shadow weave.

But beyond that with 4.0....

http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/ffn/index.php?date=2010-10-12
http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/ffn/strips/2010-10-12.jpg

and

http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/ffn/index.php?date=2010-10-14
http://nodwick.humor.gamespy.com/ffn/strips/2010-10-14.jpg

There's no more Weave; Shar still has significant control over some kinds of magic. Cyric killed Mystra off-screen and we didn't even get a novel about it. I mean its not like that was a 10 year storyline or anything!

Really disappointed in what they did with FR in 4th.

[Chai]

Chai..what NWN PW did you run? I heard rumors of a PW doing what you describe, but could never find it.

PD Myth Drannor.

It was based in old Cormanthor in the era of the first war with the Fey-Ri, previous to the mass exodus of elves that would eventually lead to the evolution of the Drow.

This is a FR time period many players dont know much about, which is one of the reasons I chose it for the setting. At this point in time in the FR universe, elves were the numerically and magically dominant race. Humans were around in barbaric and druidic settlements. Dwarves were just starting to dig their lairs which would eventually become their kingdoms. All kinds of wandering monsters roamed the lands in tribes between elven cities, and almost none of them considered eachother friends or allies.

I had alot of creative control here. Also: None of the players knew my toons were being played by the creator of the server. I was just another player to them. Some of them know nowdays though.

[KristovK]

PD Myth Drannor.

It was based in old Cormanthor in the era of the first war with the Fey-Ri, previous to the mass exodus of elves that would eventually lead to the evolution of the Drow.

This is a FR time period many players dont know much about, which is one of the reasons I chose it for the setting. At this point in time in the FR universe, elves were the numerically and magically dominant race. Humans were around in barbaric and druidic settlements. Dwarves were just starting to dig their lairs which would eventually become their kingdoms. All kinds of wandering monsters roamed the lands in tribes between elven cities, and almost none of them considered eachother friends or allies.

I had alot of creative control here. Also: None of the players knew my toons were being played by the creator of the server. I was just another player to them. Some of them know nowdays though.

I know I've seen that PW, but I never realized it was the magical rumored one...****! And yeah, that was a great time to use for FR, we did similiar in our PnP group.

[Uska]

You couldnt pay me to play a FR mmo only two things would tempt me to leave here right now one is the old republic but I dont think it will be good enough to make me leave. the other is fictional so I wont leave for it either and thats the world of hackcraft some might know what I am talking about there if it was real I would be gone in a skinny minute.

[LordPiglet]

Granted, it's being developed by a company that actually admitted to having done a not-too-good job on their previous games (in this interview with EuroGamer.net (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-08-24-cryptic-we-need-to-improve-for-neverwinter)) but you have to wonder if Turbine's own bug-ridden offerings would be as overlooked if not for the strong brand-names (LotR and D&D) backing them...


In any case, I for one am excited for this fresh chance to get a D&D multiplayer game right - that is, with better adherence to familiar rules and world-settings. Even if Neverwinter fails to live up to our expectations, it may, just may, push Turbine (or some other developer) enough to consider a DDO II, maybe even call it Faerun Forever ;)


Personally, I'll never plan to buy a Cryptic product again, especially if Jack has anything to do with it. You think Turbine is bad? I've never seen a company with a bigger disdain for their player base.

[IronClan]

DDO does a fantastic job of adapting the ruleset to create a playable MMO. It's not gonig to follow the rules precisely. Those rules would create a terrible MMO game. If you want to play them, I suggest NWN/NWN2 and Baldur's gate I/II depending on your preference of 2nd or 3rd editon rules. Those games observe the rules faithfully and are able to do so in a way that works even in small-scale multiplayer.

Really there isn't any game play or game theory based reason that an MMO can't do as good a job at rules adapting as NWN... Unless of course you mean they can't do as good a job because they would get less casual players and need to keep the rules somewhat "light weight" to apeal more to the masses? Maybe that would create a terrible MMO in that sense (i.e. a theoretically less financially successful MMO)...

Truth is DDO is arguably the same scale multiplayer as NWN in most every respect that matters... In NWN you could have over 12 players anywhere in the game, I don't recall max player capacity but I recall marching like 16 or 18 players against an army of undead in a Ravenloft persistent world the was actively DM'ed .

In fact this is my all time favorite "massively multiplayer" game experience: the DM tried to keep ahead of us placing mobs to impede our progress (we were all capped and marching on Ravenloft to destroy Strahd (however it was spelled) once and for all, in a big "character retirement" adventure. It may have been more players... Nothing in DDO compares to a huge group of role played characters fighting a real bada$$ Vampire that was being played by a real DM... Epic battle doesn't begin to describe it.

Effectively DDO is a six player multiplayer pickup game with 12 player raiding and a large semi interactive "lobby" you can run around inside... Effectively NWN was pretty much the same thing with in some cases more players than DDO but less people in the lobby.

I can't agree that NWN could be faithful to the rules and do a great job of translating some rules (that DDO doesn't even attempt) whereas DDO couldn't because it's an MMO... again unless we're talking about money motivated dumbing down for mass appeal...

Hell even the mass appeal thing is arguable, NWN was a smash hit compared to DDO.

[Missing_Minds]

Personally, I'll never plan to buy a Cryptic product again, especially if Jack has anything to do with it. You think Turbine is bad? I've never seen a company with a bigger disdain for their player base.

Jack is gone. Left or kicked out some months back.

[Robi3.0]

Granted, it's being developed by a company that actually admitted to having done a not-too-good job on their previous games (in this interview with EuroGamer.net (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-08-24-cryptic-we-need-to-improve-for-neverwinter)) but you have to wonder if Turbine's own bug-ridden offerings would be as overlooked if not for the strong brand-names (LotR and D&D) backing them......

Can't believe I missed this little tid-bit, but feel obligated to point out that Star Trek is an IP every bit as huge as DnD and LotR and Cryptic couldn't make it work, so I doubt Turbine's faults are getting over looked because brand-name IPs.

[Junts]

Really there isn't any game play or game theory based reason that an MMO can't do as good a job at rules adapting as NWN... Unless of course you mean they can't do as good a job because they would get less casual players and need to keep the rules somewhat "light weight" to apeal more to the masses? Maybe that would create a terrible MMO in that sense (i.e. a theoretically less financially successful MMO)...

Truth is DDO is arguably the same scale multiplayer as NWN in most every respect that matters... In NWN you could have over 12 players anywhere in the game, I don't recall max player capacity but I recall marching like 16 or 18 players against an army of undead in a Ravenloft persistent world the was actively DM'ed .

In fact this is my all time favorite "massively multiplayer" game experience: the DM tried to keep ahead of us placing mobs to impede our progress (we were all capped and marching on Ravenloft to destroy Strahd (however it was spelled) once and for all, in a big "character retirement" adventure. It may have been more players... Nothing in DDO compares to a huge group of role played characters fighting a real bada$$ Vampire that was being played by a real DM... Epic battle doesn't begin to describe it.

Effectively DDO is a six player multiplayer pickup game with 12 player raiding and a large semi interactive "lobby" you can run around inside... Effectively NWN was pretty much the same thing with in some cases more players than DDO but less people in the lobby.

I can't agree that NWN could be faithful to the rules and do a great job of translating some rules (that DDO doesn't even attempt) whereas DDO couldn't because it's an MMO... again unless we're talking about money motivated dumbing down for mass appeal...

Hell even the mass appeal thing is arguable, NWN was a smash hit compared to DDO.

NWN is a smash hit as a single player game. It's tremendous for 1-2-3 person play. However, it doesn't work in the ongoing, play your characters for 3-5 years kind of model that an MMO has to. NWN models many game features that DDO doesn't because its really a turn based game with a pause feature. Stuff like Cleave and AoO are different or not present here because their implementation doesn't work in the realtime combat system of a modern MMO.

Further, there are gigantic (much worse than DDO's!) balance problems in NWN classes and prestige classes, as there are fundamentally in dnd 3.5.

[Natashaelle]

This is why I think 4e makes a better real time video game than it does a turn based PnP ruleset. It was designed in a reverse engineered fashion from MMOs themselves to market DnD to that crowd. Had they marketed this as Magic Sword instead of DnD I think people would develope their own opinions on it without having to hold it up to DnD as a comparison, because it doesnt compare to the previous 3 editions. The older crowd sees it for what it is - a marketing tool to attract the newer generation of RPGers whose first exposure to fantasy gaming is MMO cool down based game mechanics - which I feel are better experienced in real time and not as a turn based game on paper.

erm, well I actually think that D&D 4E was written with the expectations of the younger generation of tabletop gamers in mind, who play a lot of Warhammer and similar miniatures games.

Sure it was also designed with a view towards computer gaming, but it's main focus is quite clearly on the miniatures. In my opinion.

[KristovK]

erm, well I actually think that D&D 4E was written with the expectations of the younger generation of tabletop gamers in mind, who play a lot of Warhammer and similar miniatures games.

Sure it was also designed with a view towards computer gaming, but it's main focus is quite clearly on the miniatures. In my opinion.

Long before WoTC finalized 4th Ed, it was already being referred to as WoW for PnP, and there's a simple reason for that..that's what it is. An MMO put into pen and paper format, everything being balanced so no one is more capable/powerful then anyone else and it's solo friendly. D&D prior to 4th..only solo friendly if the GM wanted it to be, and that took work, I know, I've done it and had it done for me.

Miniatures are just another way for WoTC to make more money off the product, and that was happening long before WoTC existed, TSR did the same thing, as did Steve Jackson Games, White Wolf, etc, etc, etc. The rules weren't designed around them, they are an extra source of money.

[IronClan]

NWN is a smash hit as a single player game. It's tremendous for 1-2-3 person play. However, it doesn't work in the ongoing, play your characters for 3-5 years kind of model that an MMO has to. NWN models many game features that DDO doesn't because its really a turn based game with a pause feature. Stuff like Cleave and AoO are different or not present here because their implementation doesn't work in the realtime combat system of a modern MMO.

Further, there are gigantic (much worse than DDO's!) balance problems in NWN classes and prestige classes, as there are fundamentally in dnd 3.5.

Hi this is just not accurate man :) No other way to say it.

Balance between classes in D&D has never been a focus and was never even addressed for most of 3 versions of D&D and 2 of AD&D... variety of characters and roles was considered far more important... no one wanted 20th Wizards to be less epic so that 20th fighters wouldn't feel left out... We knew we'd eventually play a Wizard too... And we knew wizards paid for it early on... Anyone who plays a D&D game expecing balance between their favorite class and all others is being silly. If you want that go play a game where it;'s impossible to make a poor character building choice... In other words play a game where character customization is not possible, or not significant.

By my reckoning I had a 4 year old character on a PW at the time that DDO came out in 2006... and I'd guess I stopped playing that world around 07 or so (Not that I played the character all that often)... making that character older than any current character in all of DDO (unless someone was allowed to keep Characters from the beta?). The fact is; had the PW not folded I could have theoretically played another couple years. In fact that character is still on my old Comp's hard drive along with my install of NWN.

Leveling in NWN in a decent PW was basically very similar to DDO because the XP was less plentiful in NWN in general (in non monty haul severs) both games level rather quickly so saying DDO has longer lineage or character life isn't really true... In fact "end game" could be really massive (or completely neglected) in a NWN PW compared to what DDO has. End game on one very good Hard core rules Ravenloft server that I played for years consisted of a real actual DM and an epic last quest that many characters died in (permanently). Way more compelling than anything in DDO IMO.

NWN was a smash hit as a multiplayer game, the SP while popular enough is not what kept it going for um... well it's still going last I heard so...

No PW had pause enabled (at least not on any self respecting server). NWN was real time it simply used point and click movement instead of FPS like controls. Both are 3rd person perspective, both do all combat in real time 3d, oh and Cleave while not a min/maxer feat in DDO is in fact in DDO and works kinda similar. There's absolutely no mechanical reason DDO can't do movement rules better, there's no reason it can't do cleave the same way NWN did it (and that might improve cleave IMO)... There's no reason not to have fatigue, and stamina and AoO, and so on...

Well except that some attention deficit casual non D&D players probably would hate it... On the positive side DDO could keep more of the D&D players who leave due to the watered down D&D experience, which in itself would improve DDO IMO.

I've heard people say DDO can't have better D&D rules implementation like NWN does dozens of times because it's this or because it's that. Anyway suffice to say I disagree. The games aren't all that dissimilar, the main differences are in pace, and more clicky based interactions or attacks.

[Junts]

Hi this is just not accurate man :) No other way to say it.

Balance between classes in D&D has never been a focus and was never even addressed for most of 3 versions of D&D and 2 of AD&D... variety of characters and roles was considered far more important... no one wanted 20th Wizards to be less epic so that 20th fighters wouldn't feel left out... We knew we'd eventually play a Wizard too... And we knew wizards paid for it early on... Anyone who plays a D&D game expecing balance between their favorite class and all others is being silly. If you want that go play a game where it;'s impossible to make a poor character building choice... In other words play a game where character customization is not possible, or not significant.

By my reckoning I had a 4 year old character on a PW at the time that DDO came out in 2006... and I'd guess I stopped playing that world around 07 or so (Not that I played the character all that often)... making that character older than any current character in all of DDO (unless someone was allowed to keep Characters from the beta?). The fact is; had the PW not folded I could have theoretically played another couple years. In fact that character is still on my old Comp's hard drive along with my install of NWN.

Leveling in NWN in a decent PW was basically very similar to DDO because the XP was less plentiful in NWN in general (in non monty haul severs) both games level rather quickly so saying DDO has longer lineage or character life isn't really true... In fact "end game" could be really massive (or completely neglected) in a NWN PW compared to what DDO has. End game on one very good Hard core rules Ravenloft server that I played for years consisted of a real actual DM and an epic last quest that many characters died in (permanently). Way more compelling than anything in DDO IMO.

NWN was a smash hit as a multiplayer game, the SP while popular enough is not what kept it going for um... well it's still going last I heard so...

No PW had pause enabled (at least not on any self respecting server). NWN was real time it simply used point and click movement instead of FPS like controls. Both are 3rd person perspective, both do all combat in real time 3d, oh and Cleave while not a min/maxer feat in DDO is in fact in DDO and works kinda similar. There's absolutely no mechanical reason DDO can't do movement rules better, there's no reason it can't do cleave the same way NWN did it (and that might improve cleave IMO)... There's no reason not to have fatigue, and stamina and AoO, and so on...

Well except that some attention deficit casual non D&D players probably would hate it... On the positive side DDO could keep more of the D&D players who leave due to the watered down D&D experience, which in itself would improve DDO IMO.

I've heard people say DDO can't have better D&D rules implementation like NWN does dozens of times because it's this or because it's that. Anyway suffice to say I disagree. The games aren't all that dissimilar, the main differences are in pace, and more clicky based interactions or attacks.


What you describe isn't a successful MMO, in fact, it involves many of the reasons DDO was not initially a successful MMO.

NWN was a smash hit as a low-number multiplayer game. On DDO, there are hundreds of thousands of people per server. NWN would not have worked in that environment, and didn't. It worked with 60 people per server.

[Chai]

You couldnt pay me to play a FR mmo only two things would tempt me to leave here right now one is the old republic but I dont think it will be good enough to make me leave. the other is fictional so I wont leave for it either and thats the world of hackcraft some might know what I am talking about there if it was real I would be gone in a skinny minute.

Star Wars. TOR, The Overpopulated w/Jedi Republic. I dont like the idea of every wookies cousin running around with two light sabers. I liked how it was in SWG in the beginning before all the nerfs happened. Jedi had to be earned through alot of guesswork and grinding, with the understanding that my posse was on its way to kill you the minute the BH terminal listed you as a jedi, heh.

Forget farming resources, I get 500k cred each jedi, daily.

[Chai]

What you describe isn't a successful MMO, in fact, it involves many of the reasons DDO was not initially a successful MMO.

NWN was a smash hit as a low-number multiplayer game. On DDO, there are hundreds of thousands of people per server. NWN would not have worked in that environment, and didn't. It worked with 60 people per server.

We had 700 accounts in the heyday. PD Ravenloft had over 1k. The alpha crew were rockin 500 per server at times. Those arent MMO numbers, but they dont need to be. The major difference is that in NWN, I could cater to a niche group of people if I chose to. There was no motivation to please the masses. I didnt have to dumb the game down for that either.

NWN1 was ALOT closer to PnP rules. Casters had a spell chart instead of a mana pool. Movement included attacks of opportunity. One could not min max and be able to cover up all weaknesses through metagaming in someone elses PW. AC mattered all the way up to endgame. If you gained a +1 AC that meant you got hit 5% less of the time by similar level mobs. Being able to build to hit everything on a 2 with power attack on was unrealistic. Everything was pretty well contained in the d20 system. The only time this failed was on the monte haul servers where people had +10 armor in all bonus types and +20 weapons.

I was also able to implement many things that didnt exist in NWN, or expand on things that did exist, through scripting. Armor dye, different types of traps, a full on crafting system, different types of vendors, etc.

I see the comparison as apples to oranges. For every downfall people can list due to not being an MMO, I can list at least one upside to counter it.


Further, there are gigantic (much worse than DDO's!) balance problems in NWN classes and prestige classes, as there are fundamentally in dnd 3.5.

Youre right, but as the server master I had 100% complete control to address those issues. One of the main reasons I love DnD is because it is -NOT- a balanced game. I addressed this by making it as forced cooperation oriented as it could be made. Venturing out alone was almost suicide, even for an advanced player, regardless of class / race / build combo. Players didnt have the huge gear level access to overpower the system and limit PUGs to brute force tactics. The game actually had to be played with tactics in mind around every corner. There were no HP grace handouts. A level 1 wizard has 4+con mod hp and has to roll their hp every level afterward. A level 3 player could easily be killed by the dice on a crit by a level 1 mob with a 2 handed weapon. You either were on your -A- game, or you were back on the character creation screen. Mobs got to loot your stuff. The next team who wanders into the same module before next reset has to deal with the fact that the mobs are using your haste scrolls to buff themselves, and are swinging your old magic weapons at them. To say this experience is different than an MMO is an understatement to be sure, heh.

[Ashurr]

If the Neverwinter MMO is based on 3.5 ed I'll give it a shot, but in no way am I leaving DDO - I initially fell in love with the Eberron setting for this reason: No epic characters like Elminster, or the Seven Sisters exists to save the world time and time again ( only thing I have against the FR setting, you're either the pawns of the major mover and shakers, or you're left with the feeling that why aren't the movers and shakers taking care of whatever world shattering event that's currently taking place)


The PC's are of prime importance in Eberron, this fact alone will always hold my loyalty to the setting.

[Junts]

We had 700 accounts in the heyday. PD Ravenloft had over 1k. The alpha crew were rockin 500 per server at times. Those arent MMO numbers, but they dont need to be. The major difference is that in NWN, I could cater to a niche group of people if I chose to. There was no motivation to please the masses. I didnt have to dumb the game down for that either.

NWN1 was ALOT closer to PnP rules. Casters had a spell chart instead of a mana pool. Movement included attacks of opportunity. One could not min max and be able to cover up all weaknesses through metagaming in someone elses PW. AC mattered all the way up to endgame. If you gained a +1 AC that meant you got hit 5% less of the time by similar level mobs. Being able to build to hit everything on a 2 with power attack on was unrealistic. Everything was pretty well contained in the d20 system. The only time this failed was on the monte haul servers where people had +10 armor in all bonus types and +20 weapons.

I was also able to implement many things that didnt exist in NWN, or expand on things that did exist, through scripting. Armor dye, different types of traps, a full on crafting system, different types of vendors, etc.

I see the comparison as apples to oranges. For every downfall people can list due to not being an MMO, I can list at least one upside to counter it.



Youre right, but as the server master I had 100% complete control to address those issues. One of the main reasons I love DnD is because it is -NOT- a balanced game. I addressed this by making it as forced cooperation oriented as it could be made. Venturing out alone was almost suicide, even for an advanced player, regardless of class / race / build combo. Players didnt have the huge gear level access to overpower the system and limit PUGs to brute force tactics. The game actually had to be played with tactics in mind around every corner. There were no HP grace handouts. A level 1 wizard has 4+con mod hp and has to roll their hp every level afterward. A level 3 player could easily be killed by the dice on a crit by a level 1 mob with a 2 handed weapon. You either were on your -A- game, or you were back on the character creation screen. Mobs got to loot your stuff. The next team who wanders into the same module before next reset has to deal with the fact that the mobs are using your haste scrolls to buff themselves, and are swinging your old magic weapons at them. To say this experience is different than an MMO is an understatement to be sure, heh.

Congrats. I once played a DIKU-based MUD with more total players than that. I suspect that wouldn't be a good model for an MMO either.

[IronClan]

What you describe isn't a successful MMO, in fact, it involves many of the reasons DDO was not initially a successful MMO.

First off you keep saying this, do you mean financially successful? or successful as a great gameplay experience? I guess I haven't asked yet because I clearly disagree with you in either case. NWN was probably more successful than DDO while not a "true MMO" neither is DDO in many ways. Having thousands of people in a lobby while we all split off to 6 or 12 player multiplayer games is not really an MMO in anything but name and monthly subscription paradigm. And by that measure the only thing keeping NWN from being an MMO is the town only had 32 players milling around looking for a group instead of a couple hundred.


I don't begrudge anyone liking DDO more than I do. or more than NWN or even disliking many of the things that would make DDO a better D&D game in my mind. To each their own. But I take issue with the idea that implementing a few more rules that might make the experience more D&D-like would make a "unsuccessful" MMO... From either a monetary or game play standpoint.



NWN was a smash hit as a low-number multiplayer game. On DDO, there are hundreds of thousands of people per server. NWN would not have worked in that environment, and didn't. It worked with 60 people per server.

You keep saying this like we can't all tell that DDO is a 6 to 12 player game with a "thousand player" grouping/chore lobby...

The major functional social/multiplayer distinctions between NWN and DDO are that DDO has a better grouping system and a bigger "town" (AKA where everyone hangs out while doing chores)... That's it. There's not a lot more to it... On the other hand NWN didn't use strictly instanced dungeons, two parties could enter the same dungeon... and even compete against each other. Try that in "massively multiplayer" DDO

Sorry but I don't see the simple fact of having thousands more players logged in; almost none of whom you're actually interacting with in any way -- as a functional or useful distinction between how the games need to impliment D&D rules.

[Natashaelle]

Long before WoTC finalized 4th Ed, it was already being referred to as WoW for PnP,

I do understand that this is a widespread view of it, but it's one that I happen to disagree with, for the reasons I've provided. If that's OK with you ? :)


Miniatures are just another way for WoTC to make more money off the product, and that was happening long before WoTC existed, TSR did the same thing, as did Steve Jackson Games, White Wolf, etc, etc, etc. The rules weren't designed around them, they are an extra source of money.

erm ... the entirety of 4E, though I haven't seen the D&D Essentials version, is designed around miniatures gaming -- most of the abilities and powers descriptions involve placement and movement of miniatures, even if people just use chess pieces or corks or bottle tops or whatever, on a battle map.

The use of miniatures is integral to the game design.

[KristovK]

I do understand that this is a widespread view of it, but it's one that I happen to disagree with, for the reasons I've provided. If that's OK with you ? :)



erm ... the entirety of 4E, though I haven't seen the D&D Essentials version, is designed around miniatures gaming -- most of the abilities and powers descriptions involve placement and movement of miniatures, even if people just use chess pieces or corks or bottle tops or whatever, on a battle map.

The use of miniatures is integral to the game design.

You are perfectly free to disagree with that view, you aren't alone in that.

And as to 4th being designed around miniatures..yes and no, as in that's NOT a new thing, movement, facing, and all that, it's been in the game since it was called Chainmail, which makes sense since it was derived from miniature military games. Figures didn't come into play until 1st Ed AD&D, when people realized there was a market for them and starting making money off it. TSR was quick to jump on that gravy train too! But you don't need em to play the game, never have, we used dice to show players and mobs, layed down on graph paper or a hexmap, with pencils to show walls, more dice for doors/windows/furnishings. We HAD every **** monster in the MM, MM2 and FF that were put out, along with a few hundred characters, along with walls, doors, furniture, all sorts of pieces for building the world..but we never used em, took too much time to find what you wanted, easier to just plop down some dice and go. I haven't used a miniature in over 20 years now, we don't need em, can't be bothered with em, our imaginations work well enough for us.

[Chai]

There's no more Weave; Shar still has significant control over some kinds of magic. Cyric killed Mystra off-screen and we didn't even get a novel about it. I mean its not like that was a 10 year storyline or anything!

Really disappointed in what they did with FR in 4th.

Thats because alot of the old hat authors dont like their avatars they took 15 years to develope being killed off without them being the one to tell the story. Especially the ones who created the universe.

This is also my working theory on why Salvatore is killing some of his off already.

[Chai]

You are perfectly free to disagree with that view, you aren't alone in that.

And as to 4th being designed around miniatures..yes and no, as in that's NOT a new thing, movement, facing, and all that, it's been in the game since it was called Chainmail, which makes sense since it was derived from miniature military games. Figures didn't come into play until 1st Ed AD&D, when people realized there was a market for them and starting making money off it. TSR was quick to jump on that gravy train too! But you don't need em to play the game, never have, we used dice to show players and mobs, layed down on graph paper or a hexmap, with pencils to show walls, more dice for doors/windows/furnishings. We HAD every **** monster in the MM, MM2 and FF that were put out, along with a few hundred characters, along with walls, doors, furniture, all sorts of pieces for building the world..but we never used em, took too much time to find what you wanted, easier to just plop down some dice and go. I haven't used a miniature in over 20 years now, we don't need em, can't be bothered with em, our imaginations work well enough for us.

Yeap I used either a hex map or a graph map, depending on edition, which already smacks of effort. I cant imagine the time needed to wall and door it all out, while keeping encounter mini handy for placement on the board when needed.

4th can be played like fantasy risk with minis, or it can be played on hex maps like we use.

[infamous43]

I've been waiting 20+ years for a Dragonlance game. Weis & Hickman need to do something to save the franchise after that horrendous flop of a cartoon a few years ago. How bout it?

[Docrailgun]

You do, of course know that the drow in Eberron have nothing to do with the drow of Faerun? What about the lore of Eberron?
Of course, I have to admit that I never did like the Forgotten Realms, and I very much liked the setting of Eberron long before there was an DDO.

LORE.[/b] Yeah. If you've ever had any exposure to the Forgotten Realms and the world of Faerûn, there'll be little to relate to in Eberron Unlimited. Even if your only introduction to D&D's premier campaign setting was R.A. Salvatore's books, DDO's Drow alone will elicit an alienating "WT*?" response - There's very little to care about here if you're in it for the lore, even without all the redundant dialog and non-existent storytelling (which, as I understand, is one area WoW actually excels in.) This is another example of painting oneself into a corner: Turbine wanted a Setting that wasn't tied down by a TON of already-existing conventions, so they could have more creative room to work with in terms of an MMO, but now, any story-arcs they put out and any new NPCs they introduce, have about as much intrigue and charisma as a dull signboard.
[/COLOR]

[IronClan]

I've been waiting 20+ years for a Dragonlance game. Weis & Hickman need to do something to save the franchise after that horrendous flop of a cartoon a few years ago. How bout it?

Can't imagine anyones coming out with one at this point. Did they even do a 4ed version of Dragonlance setting?

[Chai]

I've been waiting 20+ years for a Dragonlance game. Weis & Hickman need to do something to save the franchise after that horrendous flop of a cartoon a few years ago. How bout it?

Weis and Hickman are worth more than can be paid to them right now, heh. So would Douglas Niles or Elaine Cunningham for that matter.

That cartoon looked like it was made inthe 70s LOL.

[Xenus_Paradox]

Let me just sum up the 4E debate right now.

A complete history of D&D:

2010: 4E players scream "Waah, Essentials isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
2008: 3.5 players scream "Waah, 4E isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
2003: 3.0 players scream "Waah, 3.5 isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
2000: AD&D 2E (Player's Options) players scream "Waah, 3E isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1995: AD&D 2E players scream "Waah, Player's Options isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1989: AD&D 1E players scream "Waah, 2E isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1986: D&D Master players scream "Waah, Immortals isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1985: D&D Companion players scream "Waah, Master isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1983: D&D Expert players scream "Waah, Companion isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1981: D&D Basic players scream "Waah, Expert isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1978: D&D Boxed Set players scream "Waah, AD&D isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1977: D&D players scream "Waah, Boxed Set isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1974: Wargamers scream "Waah, D&D isn't a REAL wargame, it's an abomination!"

This concludes the history of D&D.

[flynnjsw]

Let me just sum up the 4E debate right now.

A complete history of D&D:

2010: 4E players scream "Waah, Essentials isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
2008: 3.5 players scream "Waah, 4E isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
2003: 3.0 players scream "Waah, 3.5 isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
2000: AD&D 2E (Player's Options) players scream "Waah, 3E isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1995: AD&D 2E players scream "Waah, Player's Options isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1989: AD&D 1E players scream "Waah, 2E isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1986: D&D Master players scream "Waah, Immortals isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1985: D&D Companion players scream "Waah, Master isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1983: D&D Expert players scream "Waah, Companion isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1981: D&D Basic players scream "Waah, Expert isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1978: D&D Boxed Set players scream "Waah, AD&D isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1977: D&D players scream "Waah, Boxed Set isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1974: Wargamers scream "Waah, D&D isn't a REAL wargame, it's an abomination!"

This concludes the history of D&D.

Thats actually not always true. Yes you have some that do that out of pure nerd rage, but not the majority. I started with the Red Box, and until 4E, everything was just an evolution. I even gave 4E a chance, I just did not like it.

[Chai]

Let me just sum up the 4E debate right now.

A complete history of D&D:

2010: 4E players scream "Waah, Essentials isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
2008: 3.5 players scream "Waah, 4E isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
2003: 3.0 players scream "Waah, 3.5 isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
2000: AD&D 2E (Player's Options) players scream "Waah, 3E isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1995: AD&D 2E players scream "Waah, Player's Options isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1989: AD&D 1E players scream "Waah, 2E isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1986: D&D Master players scream "Waah, Immortals isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1985: D&D Companion players scream "Waah, Master isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1983: D&D Expert players scream "Waah, Companion isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1981: D&D Basic players scream "Waah, Expert isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1978: D&D Boxed Set players scream "Waah, AD&D isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1977: D&D players scream "Waah, Boxed Set isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1974: Wargamers scream "Waah, D&D isn't a REAL wargame, it's an abomination!"

This concludes the history of D&D.

So dragonlance, oriental adventures, spelljammer, dark sun, FR, ADnD, Ravenloft, D20, Planescape, and pathfinder were all never screamed about as an abomination?

The only one I ever really REALLY LOL'd at was Spell Jammer. Riding dragons in space with a little bubble around you just got hilarious real quick.

[Cam_Neely]

Let me just sum up the 4E debate right now.

A complete history of D&D:

2010: 4E players scream "Waah, Essentials isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
2008: 3.5 players scream "Waah, 4E isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
2003: 3.0 players scream "Waah, 3.5 isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
2000: AD&D 2E (Player's Options) players scream "Waah, 3E isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1995: AD&D 2E players scream "Waah, Player's Options isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1989: AD&D 1E players scream "Waah, 2E isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1986: D&D Master players scream "Waah, Immortals isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1985: D&D Companion players scream "Waah, Master isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1983: D&D Expert players scream "Waah, Companion isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1981: D&D Basic players scream "Waah, Expert isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1978: D&D Boxed Set players scream "Waah, AD&D isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1977: D&D players scream "Waah, Boxed Set isn't REAL D&D, it's an abomination!"
1974: Wargamers scream "Waah, D&D isn't a REAL wargame, it's an abomination!"

This concludes the history of D&D.

haha

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/8/23/

[flynnjsw]

So dragonlance, oriental adventures, spelljammer, dark sun, FR, ADnD, Ravenloft, D20, Planescape, and pathfinder were all never screamed about as an abomination?

The only one I ever really REALLY LOL'd at was Spell Jammer. Riding dragons in space with a little bubble around you just got hilarious real quick.

Space Hamsters


That is all...

[IronClan]

So dragonlance, oriental adventures, spelljammer, dark sun, FR, ADnD, Ravenloft, D20, Planescape, and pathfinder were all never screamed about as an abomination?

The only one I ever really REALLY LOL'd at was Spell Jammer. Riding dragons in space with a little bubble around you just got hilarious real quick.

Most of us rode ships, they were remarkably similar (nearly identical) to Eberron Airships... In fact I think they reused some Spelljammer art for them.

Spelljammer was a remarkably interesting and fresh way to play, the ship to ship combat was great. Some of my players liked it so much that I would transition high level groups over to it as a alternative to the rather stale "invade the planes of existence and kill demi-gods" D&D character retirement catchall. I admit not a lot of players liked the setting. But I did everything I could to keep high level AD&D players guessing and intrigued...

Of course I loved Expedition to the Barrier Peaks too... so I guess I was a little off the wall as a DM. [edit] oh yeah and City of the Gods almost forgot it.

[Aloro]

I can't think of a more iconically important character line in the entirety of the Forgotten Realms than Mystryl/Mystra/Midnight. The entire setting is built on the actions of that divinity.

Come on, Ed Greenwood's author surrogate is even more iconic, or would be if he weren't such an obvious Gandalf clone. 3/4 of the reason Mystra was in the novels so much was her connection to Elminster (and not the other way around). :D

[Aloro]

Jack is gone. Left or kicked out some months back.

Are you sure about that? He's still listed on Cryptic's web page as being their COO.

http://crypticstudios.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=84&Itemid=35

[Natashaelle]

Yeap I used either a hex map or a graph map, depending on edition, which already smacks of effort. I cant imagine the time needed to wall and door it all out, while keeping encounter mini handy for placement on the board when needed.

4th can be played like fantasy risk with minis, or it can be played on hex maps like we use.

My *actual* point was that 1st-3rd edition could be played almost entirely without maps, or miniatures or substitutes for miniatures. This would be extremely difficult to do with 4E.

All that these subsequent posts are doing is to prove my point about 4E being a miniatures game. You do NOT have to use miniatures actually purchased with $$$ to play such a game btw. ;)

[Wren666]

Thanks to everyone with detailed replies (too lazy to reply to Natashaelle's, for now :D though.) I really enjoy reading the take of other fans on where DDO and D&D may be going.

Two recurring points come to attention;

One, Neverwinter Nights, was and still is a great game, but it's still far from being the "perfect" implementation of P&P rules in a computer game (as far as the OC/Expansion goes.) For that, The Temple of Elemental Evil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Temple_of_Elemental_Evil_(video_game)) will forever hold the crown (with the "Circle of Eight" fan-fixes pack implied as mandatory, of course.) If only because of the turn-based combat, and the different kinds of poison and their varying effects. :)


Secondly, Natashaelle and others have pointed out how certain P&P rules would not work in an MMO: err..why? DDO is PvE after all, and PvP is almost non-existent, so it's still very similar to the single-player or co-operative multiplayer D&D CRPGs that came before it, like IWD and NWN, so why worry about "balance" so much? The core of DDO's actual gameplay is still single-player after all - you just happen to play together with other people doing their own single-player thing near your character (i.e. no one needs to worry about an accurately-implemented Monk/Shadowdancer hybrid making pure Rogues in the party miserable, or anything like that.)

EDIT: I might as well throw in a quicky reply to Natashaelle regarding her question about "painting into a corner" - I meant that DDO, the more it deviates from "standard" D&D (as seen in other CRPGs) the more work the devs have to put into introducing other D&D stuff, and everything just keeps getting more and more delayed, because the devs have to make it work with all the other "house rules," like new races or classes who have to get their Enhancements pool carefully balanced out, and even then get released without all the PrE's (Bard Virtuoso etc.) which would not be the case if they had stayed true to P&P from the beginning, then adding new stuff would've been essentially a matter of copy/paste, so to speak.

[Junts]

Thanks to everyone with detailed replies (too lazy to reply to Natashaelle's, for now :D though.) I really enjoy reading the take of other fans on where DDO and D&D may be going.

Two recurring points come to attention;

One, Neverwinter Nights, was and still is a great game, but it's still far from being the "perfect" implementation of P&P rules in a computer (as for as the OC/Expansion goes.) For that, Temple of Elemental Evil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Temple_of_Elemental_Evil_(video_game)) will forever hold the crown (with the "Circle of Eight" fan-fixes pack implied as mandatory, of course.) If only because of the turn-based combat, and the different kinds of poison and their varying effects. :)


Secondly, Natashaelle and others have pointed out how certain P&P rules would not work in an MMO: err..why? DDO is PvE after all, and PvP is almost non-existent, so it's still very similar to the single-player or co-operative multiplayer D&D CRPGs that came before it, like IWD and NWN, so why worry about "balance" so much? The core of DDO's actual gameplay is still single-player after all - you just happen to play together with other people doing their own single-player thing near your character (i.e. no one needs to worry about an accurately-implemented Monk/Shadowdancer hybrid making pure Rogues in the party miserable, or anything like that.)

EDIT: I might as well throw in a quicky reply to Natashaelle regarding her question about "painting into a corner" - I meant that DDO, the more it deviates from "standard" D&D (as seen in other CRPGs) the more work the devs have to put into introducing other D&D stuff, and everything just keeps getting more and more delayed, because the devs have to make it work with all the other "house rules," like new races or classes who have to get their Enhancements pool carefully balanced out, and even then get released without all the PrE's (Bard Virtuoso etc.) which would not be the case if they had stayed true to P&P from the beginning, then adding new stuff would've been essentially a matter of copy/paste, so to speak.

because an MMo plays poorly when 2/3 the classes aren't welcome for endgame content because the easiest/fastest way to do them is to take all casters and clerics.

See: Module 5.

Balance matters so that people can play any class they wish and be equally helpful and successful overall. So that people aren't told "dont make ap aladin, you'll regret it"

its ok if you dont want that in a game; play another game.

[Wren666]

because an MMo plays poorly when 2/3 the classes aren't welcome for endgame content because the easiest/fastest way to do them is to take all casters and clerics.

See: Module 5.

Balance matters so that people can play any class they wish and be equally helpful and successful overall. So that people aren't told "dont make ap aladin, you'll regret it""Endgame content" of what? DDO's interpretation of the rules, or a world sticking true to P&P throughout? I doubt the original imbalances would have been so bad as to get players of those apparently underpowered classes thrown out of actual tabletop sessions. Do any of the core classes really offer that little value to an otherwise "balanced" party in P&P?

I honestly don't remember anyone being chastised for playing any class in other D&D CRPGs, so it must be D&D's own escalation of bending the rules that result in even more rules being twisted, until the oft-thrown defense of "based on 3.5" hardly applies, and is another example of painting themselves into a corner.


its ok if you dont want that in a game; play another game.Really, now? You actually had to ninja-edit that line in? Impressive. :rolleyes:

[Vengeance777]

Space Hamsters


That is all...

Spell Jammer and its Space Hamsters have made their way into Eberron now. Check out the level 3 guild navigator's reason for working on your ship.

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj230/nsvengence/Spelljammerddo.jpg

[Junts]

"Endgame content" of what? DDO's interpretation of the rules, or a world sticking true to P&P throughout? I doubt the original imbalances would have been so bad as to get players of those apparently underpowered classes thrown out of actual tabletop sessions. Do any of the core classes really offer that little value to an otherwise "balanced" party in P&P?

I honestly don't remember anyone being chastised for playing any class in other D&D CRPGs, so it must be D&D's own escalation of bending the rules that result in even more rules being twisted, until the oft-thrown defense of "based on 3.5" hardly applies, and is another example of painting themselves into a corner.

Really, now? You actually had to ninja-edit that line in? Impressive. :rolleyes:

Yeah, I think you're just making up arguments at this point; we're not even talking about the same topic.

Listen, Dungeons and Dragons and DDO are about different things. Dungeons and Dragons is a roleplaying game. It doesn't matter if the fighter or paladin is actually pretty worthless after level 7, they contribute significant other stuff to the party int erms of their RP, behavior, use of skills, etc. While powergaming tabletop players can and do avoid many of those classes, the DM is free to improvise, alter encounters (specifically creating stuff that the melees are better at, or challenging them in a way that doesn't challenge the wizard and encourages him to let them take care of it, etc). and he can generally aim his game at whatever classes and characters hes got. Its already an understood problem for a DM to deal with situations where one character is very powerful or well-made, and another is particularly poor.

This stuff is completely, utterly different from computer gaming. They are not the same thing. They don't have the same objectives. Let's start with NWN2, just because most readers are probably familiar with it.

Again, NWN2 has a great rendition of the rules and creation system and a nice story. Its on my HD, I played it, I liked it. But I only played it through twice. And it didn't strain me, even on very hard rule settings, to play through it even with a pretty bad class or with the game's pre-made, fairly poor characters.

As a multiplayer game, NWN2 did very well (as did NWN1). Persistent worlds served hundreds of people at a time, taking advantage of the internet to bring plpayers with similar interests together. This let people play in environments where, again, things could be tailored to those interests (like Chai's server, as described). People who aren't interested in that kind of play or campaign play on another server.

An MMO doesn't work like that, and DDO tried to, at first, do those things. We had horribly imbalanced classes. Rangers were terrible at one point, casters and clerics so dominated the game in module 5 that a pug for any orchard quest just removed all the melee classes from the getgo. When I joined this game in module 7, I was specifically told not to make a paladin even though its my defualt class in every game, because the class was so bad and so pathetic that without getting 32 pt builds and having a whole slew of shroud ingredients and tomes to twink it out -immediately-, it would be so bad no one would want to group with me. That advice wasn't even an exaggeration: it was RIGHT.

An MMO, because of its business model and its design, has to enable a gigantic number of people to play the same content and get something out of it. You and I don't play this game the same way, and most people who read this post play it differently than either of us, and its up to about 15 people at Turbine to make it work for -everyone-. There is no other server with a different ruleset, and there's not the personnel or the money to support having 1,000 servers for every playstyle. You have to co-exist with the most min-maxing of hardcore powergamers, and with the most clueless of newbies. You call this dumbing it down. So be it: go play a NWN2 persistent with your preferred ruleset. Turbine's business model depends on hundreds of thousands - actually millions - of people being able to log in, and enter the exact same quest and somehow get something out of it. An MMO is a shared experience, even though only 6-12 people are questing at a time together, tens of thousands of people are doing a given quest at once, and may get an item you need or learn a technique you don't know yet.

This is to say nothing of the elephant in the room: dnd rules tend to be great at level 1-6, ok at 7-12ish, and totally worthless at level 20. Level 20 games are terribly unbalanced and tend to only work due to the DM willing them to work. But in an MMO, most players will be at level cap most of the time. Its expected.

if that gameplay isn't for you, that's fine, but that's what Turbine's business model is, and its extremely important (for the game to go on) that they make money that way. It costs a lot of money for htem to make even the content we continue to get. Think about how little post-release content NWN got from its developers - and those were paid expansions! The sheer volunteer manpower that was required to create the persistent NWN2 worlds (like Chai's) isnt something Turbine can count on to make money.

I'm sorry, you guys just need to get over it. This game competes with WoW, and when it has 50,000 players, it doesn't do that and it's gone. If you don't want to play that way, that's fine, move on, do something else.

Acting like Turbine couuld magically make money by offering you a 'truer to the rules' D&D MMO is a joke. The experience you want can't be recreated online, becaues it requires gigantic amounts of manpower just to create it for the 6-7 people in your pen and paper group. That effort isn't easily streamlined. DDO offers a lot of things (like quests with actual storylines and unique objectives) that are trendsetting in the MMO universe. Appreciate them. Give them props. If you want a personal storyline created for your particular build, go play a paper game with your friends. You can't get that here.

[IronClan]

Acting like Turbine couuld magically make money by offering you a 'truer to the rules' D&D MMO is a joke. The experience you want can't be recreated online, because it requires gigantic amounts of manpower just to create it for the 6-7 people in your pen and paper group. That effort isn't easily streamlined. DDO offers a lot of things (like quests with actual storylines and unique objectives) that are trendsetting in the MMO universe. Appreciate them. Give them props. If you want a personal storyline created for your particular build, go play a paper game with your friends. You can't get that here.

And again you making unsupported statements that DDO can't implement D&D rules BETTER (note to other poster NOT PERFECT no ones asking for that; just better) because it's got a bigger lobby than NWN had doesn't "magically" make your statement true.

The fact is NWN was a more successful game in its first couple years than DDO, so you can make baseless assertions about comercial sucess, and NEEDING to cow tow to the lowest common denominator... or you can probably side track into "it had no monthly fee" territory and you might be justified... but you can't say a better more thurough D&D rules implementation limited the sucess of NWN while a light weight rules implementation made DDO a smash hit...

Just the opposite in fact you can say that for a variety of factors probably including the receptions the games got from real D&D gamers based on there "D&D-likness" NWN was a smash hit while the game with less D&D-likeness almost failed... and still seems to struggle to keep D&D players who don't adjust to the arcady/zerg game play. At least if the anecdotal evidence of my broken up static group of real life friends who left is any indication... Not coincidentally I'm the only one of them that actually is an FPS fan (original Doom IPX, Duke3d over Kali, QuakeWorld and all the quake mods TF and Weapons Factory to name a couple all the way to CS, HL2, TF2) also not coincidentally we all played NWN for years off and on yet it took only about 6 weeks playing F2P DDO for them to lose interest.

Anecdotal? Sure, but what other conclussion can I make when friends who've played DECADES of P&P and years of other MMORPG's with me can't be bothered to play a free D&D MMO?

[IronClan]

Spell Jammer and its Space Hamsters have made their way into Eberron now. Check out the level 3 guild navigator's reason for working on your ship.

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj230/nsvengence/Spelljammerddo.jpg

Hilarious, when DDO adds Gnomes and starts re-working "end game" I wonder if they will put in a epic quest line that's based off Spelljammer?

Think about it, they already have VON6 enviroment maps (the textures used as a background) and Airships that look nearly identical to spelljammers.... They can impliment some ship to ship combat mechanic for guild PvP and PvPvE fun and games and (and maybe some sort of event or something); and at the same time they'll have a free ship to ship system for a spelljammer module... Dunno if WotC would allow it but it;'s a dead setting right? So maybe they don't care. They could also reuse the code for some high seas/air pirate combat...

[Ratnix]

I've been waiting 20+ years for a Dragonlance game. Weis & Hickman need to do something to save the franchise after that horrendous flop of a cartoon a few years ago. How bout it?

I am with you there. I am a big fan of the Weis/Hickman books. All of them really but the Dragonlance ones they wrote are my favorite by far. I have read Chronicles and Legends at least 16 times since they came out.

As far as settings go, I personally don't like the Eberron setting, I only like the Forgotten Realms setting a bit more than Eberron. I think the only reason the FR settings are so popular is because of all the games that came out set in it. Some people's only experience with any D&D settings come from the games that have been made. I would much prefer some of the other settings besides those 2.

As much as I love the DragonLance setting, over the years I have come to see just how much it is held in general contempt.
I have seen numerous discussions over the years about books and settings and the shear volume of hatred that is thrown at DragonLance has always made me keep my mouth shut in those discussions.
I can understand some of the feelings. A lot of it has to do with all of the books not written by Weis/Hickman.
I have read like 6 or 7 books in the DragonlLance setting not written by Weis/Hickman and they just weren't that good. Sure some of them were, but I don't feel they were to the standard of Weis/Hickman.
I look at it like something like the Portal Stones from WoT. Each different author is on a different plane of existence in Krynn. While their books are based off of the Krynn written by Weis/Hickman, they are different worlds with minor changes.
These inconsistencies are what cause a lot of people not to like them.

When I heard they were making a movie based on the Chronicles I was excited. I heard it was going to be animated and I immediately though of the Final Fantasy movies.
Then I heard they were going to be 2d animated and the first thought I had was The Hobbit animated movie. I watched about 5 minutes of that and shut it off and have never watched it again.
The fact that they made the movie that way indicates to me that they don't really ever care about making it popular and the chances of ever getting any type of MMO or CRPG set in the DragonLance setting.
If the movie was done right and they were able to draw a large following like what happened with Lord of the Rings, we would probably be seeing a DragonLance game or at least hear about something in the works.

As it is, I have given up all hope of ever seeing anything set in DragonLance.

[Jacket]

On 4E: Corporate support is behind it. Heck they even sold 3.5E to someone else. No new games will come out based on anything other than the current new hotness, just like no new games will be coming out based on AD&D(THAC0 ftl!) or the original etc. It hardly matter if that is a good thing or not. Progress marches on and all that.

On FR: Back when FR was new they did a good thing by spreading its development around to more than just two main people. The thing that killed Dragonlance was having all major world building decisions made by Weis and Hickman. When they got tired of it they burned it down only to be told by the fanbase that they had to bring it back, which resulted in Gods leaving, coming back, dieing, psionics, extra-dimensional dragons and all manner of stupid. A similar thing seems to be occurring in FR in that the old guard just wants to move on but the setting has become so popular that just blowing it up and starting something else is untenable. Eberron is a valid attempt to get away from the worlds that are becoming stale and it's pretty good attempt too.

[Daermonith]

I'm very excited for Neverwinter. DnD 4ed. has a great combat system. It honestly sucks for PnP but for a video game it is going to be great.

I think the best thing about it though is that it going to be in Forgotten Realms. This more no more of that hideous abortion we know as Warforged.

[flynnjsw]

I think the best thing about it though is that it going to be in Forgotten Realms. This more no more of that hideous abortion we know as Warforged.

No, intead you will get a million and one incarnations of the Drizzt name. THAT is even more of an abomination.

[diamabel]

And again you making unsupported statements that DDO can't implement D&D rules BETTER (note to other poster NOT PERFECT no ones asking for that; just better) because it's got a bigger lobby than NWN had doesn't "magically" make your statement true.
...



What would it really mean to "better implement D&D rules"?


Although, I'd like to experiment once with a D&D computer adaptation that realised aging, "mysterious divination", illusions (which would require the caster to use different spells to make them convincing), etc. . Especially with an emphasis on non-combat stuff. Luckily you aren't tied to the written rules ("house rules"), e.g. I wouldn't use the alignment system presented in the rulebooks (and rather keep players in the dark about their true alignments and use it for internal game mechanics only). In the end it will always come down to an interpretation of D&D rules, a personal preference or a mix of both.

As was said, MMOs will impose certain restrictions (i.e. because of the different people playing together/next to each other and chasing after different game goals) to allow a majority of players to enjoy their own playstyles. In brief, there are different parties involved (i.e. a company, different kinds of players) and this requires compromise.

There are two roads, either stick with what is available and abide to additional rules (which the game engine doesn't enforce, like PD) or make your own game which implements the rules you want (tweak an existing game engine (Infinity Engine, NWN/NWN2 or anything else) or make it from scratch). If you don't intend to make money with such a game and don't target a big audience you can freely experiment with your own preferred rulesets.

[KristovK]

My *actual* point was that 1st-3rd edition could be played almost entirely without maps, or miniatures or substitutes for miniatures. This would be extremely difficult to do with 4E.

All that these subsequent posts are doing is to prove my point about 4E being a miniatures game. You do NOT have to use miniatures actually purchased with $$$ to play such a game btw. ;)

You don't NEED a map or miniatures for 4th Ed, that's just WoTC's marketing department doing what they do extremely well. My group through high school..we had a few thousand miniatures between 5 guys. We had quadmaps, hexmaps, octomaps. We had pieces to build cities, castles, dungeons, forests, hells, we could make anything we might encounter in our gaming, THAT industry was big in the 70s through the early 90s. Keep in mind, almost every single RPG put out was designed TO make use of that stuff, it's in the rules for all em, especially the games like Warhammer and Battletech that were more wargame then RPG.

I actually had a 12x8 foot gaming table, terrain table to be exact, ready to take on the appearance of anything from highland moors to thick forests to alpine mountains to the blasted cratered surface of a moon(played fantasy and scifi games). My wife refused to let me keep that thing up during the week, and I didn't want to anyway, since I had to take over our entire dining room to use it. Know what we USUALLY did with it while gaming? Used about 2 square feet to put our dice and pencils down as markers, the rest of it we used to hold drinks, food, and manuals. I had a few thousand dollars of miniatures, landscaping material and building pieces, and once in a while we'd lay all that stuff out and do up a big battle scenerio, mainly when we had 3 day weekends and could get our wives/gf's to let us.

4th Ed ain't the first of the D&D titles to try and push miniatures, not by a LONG shot, TSR put out a manual for large scale miniature battles back in the day for Gygax's sake! That was a HUGE market in the late 70s through the early 90s, miniatures, landscapes and buildings. Friend of mine in '90 had over 3000 miniatures that were character pieces, that didn't include his collection of monster pieces, of which he lost track of around 7k pieces. I had a few hundred character pieces and a few thousand monster pieces...and that was only for fantasy games, didn't include my scifi pieces, Battletech, Star Trek, Star Wars..yeah, this is NOT a new thing with 4th Ed, the pushing of miniatures and rules to use them with...not even an old thing come back again, it's ALWAYS been part of the table top gaming world.

JUNTS...I agree and disagree with your position :)
Yes, DDO can't go the route it tried at first, making D&D in an MMO setting, those of us who've been here for 4+years saw how well THAT worked out. Sadly, when making an MMO you just have to cater to the LCD, and we're seeing exactly how that's FINALLY playing out with DDO today.
NO, DDO isn't all about the end game, no MMO is, that's just what the powergamers want to make it seem like. I've have more friends who've played WoW since it's release who have YET to hit the original cap, much less the new cap in WoW. They don't take breaks, they play religously, but they aren't into getting to the cap, they are into crafting, resource mining, and mostly, sitting at their computers and bsing with people they know ingame for hours at a time while they craft or farm resources. That happens to be the majority of the playerbase for MMOs, casual gamers who rarely hit end game and spend all of their time at low and midlevels. I've got 12 characters on my main server atm, 1 is capped, 3 are OLDER then that capped character and I've had no inclination to cap them yet. I've had 3 others I capped and since deleted, ran at cap with a few characters for the entire duration of DDO so far, but the majority of my characters are low to mid levels, that's where the game is the most fun for the most people.

[nephtysahren]

I was looking forward to another Neverwinter game and an MMO at that but that looks dead in the water now.
But that can only be a good thing for DDO ^___^ meh we dont need another DnD online we has this :D

[Cyprine]

i find it exceedingly funny that players of a game requiring a lot of imagination are so conservative & stuck in *rules*, *official settings* and *to the letter not-JRRTolkien-but-RASalvator-Drow-Elves*.

Come on, the very point to rpg is to imagine new thing (TSR original motto was something along the lines of *the only limit is your imagination*). Eberron Setting is fun with his Quori dream (nightmare ?) creature wanting to take over, freewilled golems (WF) and magic-not-unlike-science steampunk feel.
Turbine has delivered very interesting adventure pack fitting the myth, playing lsd quests, even adding some tactical fighting lately (i'm thinking of In the flesh end fight. Wonder what it looks like on epic.)

I long for deconstipated creators (and willing the risk editors) to serve us player radical new stuff: surprise me !
Planescape setting remains one of my favorite - discovering it was all Awe & Amazement, and sharing it on the table with friends a real pleasure.

go on Turbine, quest the flow of good adventures coming and surprise us !

[TiberiusofTyr]

6 month old thread is 6 months old

[Bodic]

6 month old thread is 6 months old


I was looking forward to another Neverwinter game and an MMO at that but that looks dead in the water now.
But that can only be a good thing for DDO ^___^ meh we dont need another DnD online we has this :D

Not a good start to a forumite career.
For my first post I am going to necro for no actual good reason.

[Jonny_D]

Going free to play saved this game. You would have had a tiny fraction of the updates that we have gotten if there was no free to play. I could care less if someone plays the game that knows nothing about D&D. This is a game based on D&D.

funny thing is f2p hasnt brought any real endgame updates (epics are just rehashed lowby quests), or caused any of the friends I used to play with to come back because the game is free.

what Turbine got right was the combat, nothing compares to the combat combined with the multiclassing of characters in ddo has yet to be duplicated for me in any MMO.

I am definately trying out Neverwinter Nights

[Indoran]

Yes I want more lore in DDO but I don't think it is it's pitfall.

But I also like DDO the way it is... I don't want to roleplay... I want to make buddies and kick ass!

Though the storyline should be stronger... and more flavorful... please!!! DDO developers weave the story together... I know the Stormreaver saved Xendrik a long time ago... but what does the Abbot has to do with all that? maybe a couple more cinematics??? (not only the intro one)

As in you get to a new area for the first time and you get a short cinematic with it's history... and when you flag for a raid you get another one or the chance to go check it out (to avoid breaking a party conversation or something)

[Flavilandile]

Thread Necro of the best kind :D


[snip]
Come on, the very point to rpg is to imagine new thing (TSR original motto was something along the lines of *the only limit is your imagination*).


Dungeons and Dragons, D&D,Products of your Imagination, and the TSR Logo are trademarks owned by TSR, Inc.
( Taken straight from the GAZ13 : The Shadow Elves )



Eberron Setting is fun with his Quori dream (nightmare ?) creature wanting to take over, freewilled golems (WF) and magic-not-unlike-science steampunk feel.


That's what makes it different... In the other worlds ( except Mystara/Hollow World ) there's the good realms and the evil realms, in Eberron things are not all black and white, and more on a shade of grey...
It ticks off many players not used to that, but it has some appeal to other ( me for example, I'm an old RM hand ( along with an Old D&D [ Mystara ] hand, and I've played for a long time in Shadow World ( RM main world ) where the powers of the world are all in a shade of grey... )

Now Faerun has been the official support world for (A)D&D for so long that it's a bit justified to have people grumbling... ( I grumble because there's no more Mystara books )


[
Turbine has delivered very interesting adventure pack fitting the myth, playing lsd quests, even adding some tactical fighting lately (i'm thinking of In the flesh end fight. Wonder what it looks like on epic.)

I long for deconstipated creators (and willing the risk editors) to serve us player radical new stuff: surprise me !
Planescape setting remains one of my favorite - discovering it was all Awe & Amazement, and sharing it on the table with friends a real pleasure.

Sadly I don't think it's possible with D&D license any longer. There's too many legalese that needs to be jumped through... ( I won't got into a legalese rant about that other MMO License that turbine owns... it would be inapropriate, and Turbine is just an innocent bystander in it )

[Velexia]

Prestige Enhancements were a mistake, so was TR'ing, and Greensteel, and Dungeon Alert, and Capstones...

However... Forgotten Realms is a tired, old, boring setting chock-full of Mary Sues. Eberron was a welcome and refreshing change.

Also, 4th edition is an utter abomination that doesn't deserve the Dungeons and Dragons name, even if that name isn't all that special to begin with.