Mabar Ban Problems

[PwnHammer40K]

hah point.

Although, I'm not sure if most of the people who hang around DESPITE Turbine, do not do so because this game is our only Dungeons & Dragons fix on the internet anymore.

I'm afraid that Neverwinter (http://www.playneverwinter.com) may be our only salvation.. :(Oh god the Neverwinter MMO cant come too soon, even if it is being made by a company who admitted to being a lousy developer (cryptic), I CANNOT WAIT for that game IF ONLY because it will afford us some CHOICE against Turbine as far as playing DnD online is concerned. (I know there's Neverwinter Nights 1 a great game and great engine but thats too old and kind of a niche these days when you consider the playerbase)

[Stormface]

Dear Turbine,

I applaude you on the quick response once admitted that all was an error. From Toleros statement that the bans were wrongly done, to the actual lift of said bans it was a mere minutes. - that was smartly done.:) .........but thats the only positive I can see in this whole incident.

First of all, I am deeply concerned for Turbine admitting that there exists an auto-ban process.:( Especially since said ban emails stated : "Your Dungeons & Dragons Online: Stormreach account has been suspended as a result of a confirmed Player Code of Conduct violation. ........Specifically, a Game Master determined that ......." So in fact you are telling your customers in case of a ban via email that a GM (a live person) veryfied them personally doing an exploit, while in truth it is an automated process?:confused: Thats kind of a shady and hypocrisy practise telling one thing and doing the other especially in disciplinary matters.:mad:

Having said that I am disgusted about an auto-ban process and that there never should have been such a thing, I admit that wherever automated systems are at work there is the possibility of computer errors. - Loads of ppl were affected - lots of uproar on the forums and elsewhere - Turbine stepped forward, admitted an error and lifted the bans - case closed.

but......
I am worrying what would have happened if said error would not have affected the masses as it did but only myself or a handful of persons?:(
Any means to file a complaint or argue for a lift of said bans would have been via the in-game customer support (stated time for a response 3/4 days). Meaning 3 day bans would allready be over b4 customer support would even have a look at the case. :( And most likely they would simply answer that discipline must be upheld and a GM confirmed (lol) the exploiting, if they would answer at all that is. By that time I would still be asking myself what I did wrong, since said ban emails only stated I did wrong, but not what I did wrong.

How would you feel dear people at Turbine if you would get a letter from the police simply stating that you broke the street laws and your driving license is suspended for a certain time? No explanation what you did just the suspension. And if you start to ask questions what street law you broke, you are threatened with a permanent suspension of your license or jail if you don´t keep quiet. Yes dear ppl at Turbine, how would you feel?

Back to the scenario of only a handful of affected ppl ....I fear their bans would have been upheld and an infraction noted to their accounts.:(

The most alarming thing I saw was the way of poilicing the forums to contain the whole issue.:mad: Deletion/locking of threads, threatening ppl to make them refrain from posting, From my experiance its allways a bad sign if a company tries to cover up something.
I know that you were in your rights, because said threads were I am sure in some way against the forum laws. Your forum Laws Turbine. You made them. Same as you made the paragraphs we had to accept when creating accounts, which gives you wildcards to ban anyone for any reason you seem fit.
But to see those forum laws and wildcards executed as they were, excuse the comparison but that reminds me of the methods of silencing dissidents in a banana repuplic.:rolleyes:

Turbine / Banana Repuplic
*email: you have exploited - ban / *Police: you have broken the law - jail
*statement: a GM determined / *we know you did it and can bring witnesses who will swear anything we want.
*no explanation what you did / *no explanation what you did
*forums are policed, threads deleted / *newspapers are monitored and censored
*any appeal might take longer than the ban. / *you don´t get a trial before you are shot, tough there might be one afterwards.

Ok, I agree that is very far-fetched and sarcastic, but you get my point.

I admit that turbine came forward in the end and said: "mea culpa, we were wrong" and lifted the bans asap. And I accept the appology which was given. Also I don´t make the ppl on the frontline responsible for how they acted. But frankly Turbine, after an incident like this you should truly review how you are handling bans and forum rules, aswell as your informations policy.






P.S.: thx for the 100TP recompensation. But honestly I feel more insulted than gratitude for this token. In fact it wouldn´t matter to me if it were 1000 or 5000 (but ppl might take your pleads about beeing sorry and to remedy the incident more serious). I would prefer instead some honest answers to:

how this could happen?
why it took so long for an official statement?
why (instead of just telling that it is looked into) there never was a statement telling that there might be a mistake (and that is looked into)?
why ppl are told via ban emails that GMs verify them while admittedly it is an automatic process?
why there is no information for banned ppl why they are banned (someone accused of a crime and not told what crime he did - unthinkable)?
why there is a policy in forum to cover up and censor posting?
what is done / changed to prevent a similar incident (aka: what have you learned out of it)?
what happens if in future only a handful or a single person are affected and get wrongly banned, even if you think their ban is correct? Without massive uproar do they have any chance to get acquitted?
P.P.S.: Trust is a very fragile thing, once its shattered its very hard to rebuild.
I truly hope Turbine, that you will be able to regain the trust of your customers again, because I love this game and would like to continue playing it in future. But to rebuild that trust you must learn out of this incident (as I hope those ppl who truly exploited in the summoning chamber will do aswell).
That, having voiced my thoughts, I will see this incident for myself as closed and move on....

[Angelus_dead]

There are no common denominators, common actions, or anything else.
What makes you think that?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

What makes you think that?

Yeah, computers just don't do random things. Those players had SOMETHING that triggered it, even if its not obvious and didn't break any rules.

[Wolf_Thunderspirit]

I will be glad when those who are crying and moaning actually DO leave DDO. May they travel the Boo Hoo river back to WoW ... spend a month there, and go play Wizardry 101, Perfect World, Jade Dynasty and all the other waste of time MMO's out there after that. Anything to excise a bit of crybaby from the game.

Would love to see the Mabar games, like the Ice Games, back again. Festivault can stay away - I have more than enough cookies and cakes to kill the avarage diabetic, and none were so great to be a must-have (most were a must-get-rid-of). My gripe? They're too popular. When 40 instances have to be opened to the flocks of people crowding the server in one area ... well ... I want to be anywhere the lag ISN'T.

But to address the 7 degrees of seperation whiners seem to forget:
1) Did your computer NEVER crash? Thats right - computers aren't perfect. No conspiracy, they just aren't.
2) Turbine is surrounded and makes a living by computers. Those imperfect machines.
3) Computers need programmers. Human beings. Oh yeah, they make mistakes too.
4) You are a human being (no, really. I have it on good authority here, honest!) - therefore you are both simular to a programmer and also able to make mistakes
5) You post to this forum when angry. First mistake.
6) You post here with absolute butchery to the English language; in both grammar and spelling. Second Mistake.
7) You forget that anger passes, the words to the forum do not, and people like me will point out how childish that behavior is and mock you by treating you the way you've asked to be treated; like a bratty and spoiled child. Third mistake.

My advice? Get over it. It happened. You're back. If one day of "Ooops!" took that much out of your life, you might want to take the risk of looking at the world before it passes you by.

Turbine took the matter and dealt with it. They did right. They gave you the reason, returned to you what was taken, and gave you something besides for your trouble. That's as much as any should expect, but some are trying to get TP because they had 'no one' to PUG with????? VIP's are wanting to ditch the game saying they'll take their money elsewhere trying to take Turbine down????

Reality Check. You're not as important as you think you are. In fact, you probably are less important than those who can move on from this. Go, with - at least - MY Blessing. Improve the social atmosphere by removing yourself from this part of society. DOO will THRIVE without crybabies and whiners.

[sisterjinx]

I will be glad when those who are crying and moaning actually DO leave DDO. May they travel the Boo Hoo river back to WoW ... spend a month there, and go play Wizardry 101, Perfect World, Jade Dynasty and all the other waste of time MMO's out there after that. Anything to excise a bit of crybaby from the game.



It was so long I didn't want to quote the whole thing but you know what you said and I simply wanted to make sure you knew this was for you.

Talk to US in 4 years, when you have seen things like this time and time again, when you have at some point been treated like you do not matter even though you have been supporting this game through both best and worst of times.

I will whole heartedly agree that there are times when the whining on these forums gets way out of hand, however the treatment of the community that SUPPORTS this game as of late has been on a serious spiraling decline and for some this was the straw that is breaking the camels back. Others still will stick it out as always and continue to play until some other straw finally gets to them as well. However when I see statements like yours I simply have to laugh because you don't see the big picture that so many of us have been watching develop before you ever even heard of DDO.

[patang01]

Reality Check. You're not as important as you think you are. In fact, you probably are less important than those who can move on from this. Go, with - at least - MY Blessing. Improve the social atmosphere by removing yourself from this part of society. DOO will THRIVE without crybabies and whiners.

There are plenty of long time customers (VIP) that cancelled their subscriptions and plenty who will probably not buy TP for a while. While the grief over this have to come to a natural end eventually It's hardly conductive to a important discussion about something like a auto ban system to have you essentially take a purist stand that all complainers should take a hike.

I don't know if you want DDO to go back to the dying game it was before the launch of unlimited, but that's where your attitude will take it.

I only hope that this incident and discussion leads to a different philosophy in regards to banning people. I understand that it's difficult enough in regards to a large player base, but in the end of the day if you tell people that they're certain that they did something wrong, that it is verified and checked by a human being.

These are reallly valid concerns despite any heated arguments and asking people to take a hike won't really fix the basic issue at hands.

[Wren666]

Talk to US in 4 years, when you have seen things like this time and time again, when you have at some point been treated like you do not matter even though you have been supporting this game through both best and worst of times.4 years? Hardly. Not even 2.

Let's see how the other crybabies who egg and encourage players to leave, can help this game "THRIVE" once there are actually some alternatives to "Dungeons & Dragons Online." Yes, I'm talking about Neverwinter, due in 2011.

How hard is that for those WoW-haters (who seem to have done their share of crying about the leading MMO) to realize that we don't want to play other games, or play sycophant to Turbine, WE JUST WANT TO PLAY D&D ONLINE. and DDO is the only venue for us to do that.

for now.

[flynnjsw]

4 years? Hardly. Not even 2.

Let's see how the other crybabies who egg and encourage players to leave, can help this game "THRIVE" once there are actually some alternatives to "Dungeons & Dragons Online." Yes, I'm talking about Neverwinter, due in 2011.

How hard is that for those WoW-haters (who seem to have done their share of crying about the leading MMO) to realize that we don't want to play other games, or play sycophant to Turbine, WE JUST WANT TO PLAY D&D ONLINE. and DDO is the only venue for us to do that.

for now.

You keep toting Neverwinter as some sort of savior, but I have a feeling that you are wrong. First off, it is not a MMO. The developers have said that. Second, and as you have already pointed out, it is being developed by Cryptic who has already made several blunders in games. Third, it is based on 4.0, which isn't exactly the most popular with a lot of hard core PnP players. Fourth (and this one is just my opinion), since it is based on 4.0, that means that it is in what I consider a very broken Faerun and will not be recognizable to anyone that knows anything about the setting.

I am guessing that it will end up being just like a lot of the rest; people will check it out, get bored, and come back because DDO will still be the best available option.

[Wren666]

You keep toting Neverwinter as some sort of savior, but I have a feeling that you are wrong. First off, it is not a MMO. The developers have said that. Second, and as you have already pointed out, it is being developed by Cryptic who has already made several blunders in games. Third, it is based on 4.0, which isn't exactly the most popular with a lot of hard core PnP players. Fourth (and this one is just my opinion), since it is based on 4.0, that means that it is in what I consider a very broken Faerun and will not be recognizable to anyone that knows anything about the setting.

I am guessing that it will end up being just like a lot of the rest; people will check it out, get bored, and come back because DDO will still be the best available option.I keep "toting" Neverwinter as a much-needed and long-overdue increase in CHOICE for us players. As for being based on 4.0, please; with the mess that DDO is, it'll be quite hard for NW to be worse, in terms of compliance with PnP rules, at least.

As for coming back into the loving folds of Turbine, ...I guess that remains to be seen, doesn't it :) You've to consider the after-effects of WoW's overhauled Cataclysm too. The way I see it, a lot of players will go check out the new WoW first, then, when hankering for a D&D fix, they'll divide between NW and DDO on their way back.

EDIT: about that "not-an-MMO" schebang, I think it's just a preemptive defense against Turbine's exclusive rights to running a D&D "MMO." It probably won't matter much to how the game will play.

OH and as far as having made several blunders in games is concerned, do you think Turbine is essentially a much better developer if they didn't have popular brand-names to rely on? After all, their homeground Asheron's Call is dead but LOTRO and DDO seem to be going strong.. (the former more than the latter, again maybe alluding to the strength of brandnames after all..)

[joneb1999]

There is a lesson to be learned here Turbine and I hope you have learned it. When something like this happens you need to get a message in right away to at least let people know that the issue at hand is being investigated and is not absolute in any way.

Why is there a lesson? Because you freaked a lot of people out with your silence and the deletion of threads and even though its now resolved allowing this to happen is for me at least very uncomfortable. It makes me realise no matter what I pay to this game I am at the mercy of any decisions you make and I cant rely on you making a fair and just decision. I hope some day soon this games industry sector has a complaints procedure put in place to investigate individual companies decisions because it is still a service industry and there should some protection for the consumer.

I do hope even though some people may have acted equally as inappropriately as you in regards to the situation and may have had disciplinary action taken against them, that their service is restored fully.

[Zippo]

The thing is we don't really know what happened.

Here's an example:

Turbine dumps their database of actions and finds one group of people who have some sort of casual inference to an exploit (they were once in the same instance as someone who cheated, for example). They then refine their searches throug hthat group to find the people who did cheat.

Then, someone loads the wrong database dump int othe automated mailer, and its sent to the first group instead of the final result group.

It can really be that simple: loading the wrong file and not noticing.

And then voila, 20,000 people get in trouble instead of 20.


I could buy that argument if it wasn't for people and accounts also being noted of not participating in the event. The most outrageous of which includes someone who is currently deployed overseas in the military who has not logged into the game for several months, obviously due to a lack of a gaming machine, who was also sent a consequent e-mail that detailed their extensive investigation into his bannable exploits during the Mabar event. This beyond a bad script.

[Riorik]

First of all, I am deeply concerned for Turbine admitting that there exists an auto-ban process.

I don't think that's a true rendition of how this probably works.
What they likely have is the ability, after they've done their research, to build a list of accounts that are run against a script that autogenerates the emails.

It's really likely that it was just a defective list. The process review likely means they're going to require another person to step into the process to verify the list.

[Aganthor]

why there is no information for banned ppl why they are banned (someone accused of a crime and not told what crime he did - unthinkable)?
why there is a policy in forum to cover up and censor posting?
what is done / changed to prevent a similar incident (aka: what have you learned out of it)?
what happens if in future only a handful or a single person are affected and get wrongly banned, even if you think their ban is correct? Without massive uproar do they have any chance to get acquitted?


This is exactly what I'm thinking about this incident.

Turbine, please be more transparent!!! It will affect our trust in you as a company.

[Chai]

It is not a fact it is an opinion. It is your opinion. Can you confirm by fact that the complaining/reporting today did not speed up the reply. Can you confirm by fact that the response provided was not based off of bad publicity to gaming sites. Can you confirm that if nothing was said, and crickets rejoiced in song, that those affected would have been rectified so quickly.

Oh god book three. The proverbial screenshot or it didnt happen post. Yeap, 20+ years of CS speaks for itself. Most of that is working for a software company who sees more flaming on their boards monthly than Turbine sees yearly. The people whose issues DO get resolved, are those who dont panic, and get on the phone with technical support, or send an email to the same. Long after their issues are resolved, the NerdRagers® are still rioting on the forum, tossing heir pixelated poo at one and other. This happens at MANY software companies, and not just Turbine. ut let me guess, youre going to ask for 8 years of education as credentials before any statement can be quantified, but you wont do this to those that agrere with you. This is will lead you down the path of people not taking you seriously, real quick.


Unless you are a Turbine employee you can not confirm these questions without violating company privacy agreements. So either you are an employee in violation, someone leaked info to you which puts them in violation, or you are stating an opinion based off of information provided as others have.

Is there a problem officer? Wait wait wait...did you just say meow.

If being a forum cop is all you have to banter with, I suggest not hitting the panic button, and approaching the situation logically next time, k? I am not violating rules here.


You are using the same techniques as those that you chastise.

Yo dawg, I heard ya like complaining. We went over this remember.


Where as you think I am upset and complaining, I see you as doing the same. The only difference at this point is I admit that I am complaining about the situation. I tried to do it in a humerous manner. You feel you are unequivocally correct, and therefore unapproachable on other "tin foil hat" theories.

Yo dawg, I heard ya like complaining. We went over this remember.


So far you have complained about forum rep, yet you have a mighty huge greenis there!

I provided actionable feedback that did not violate forum guidelines about how I dont support the rep system. The fact that more people agree with me than disagree with me is literally what I am speaking of, as the rep system isnt supposed to be used for applauding agreement or griefing disagreement. Id like to see how you are going to try to counter this, logically. Your self contradiction just played itself full circle.


You have complained about how others get their point acrossed while utilizing the same methods.

Again, I provide feedbackwithout going over the line. Can the NerdRioters® of 2010 claim the same. What you are seeing here on these boards is what happens when people contact others when emotionally charged. Its the equivilent of calling a CS rep when a product doesnt work and dropping a bunch of F bombs. You wont be speaking with their manager. You will be having a nice chat with a dial tone.



ou try to infuse humor into a situation that you said you do not get a kick out of.

Sucks that you have to interpret it this way just to have ammo to banter with, but this is clearly not the case.


nd finally you are only replying to portions of posts to try and support your 'facts."

VS what? the emotionally charged knee jerk reaction we saw today, and every time before when Turbine made a decision people dont agree with. You do realize most people will be laughing about all this in a week and using it as a sarcastic reference in their jokes. When there is lag nowdays there is always one person in the bunch that says "dont blame me guys, I am only swinging one weapon" - I can see it already when someone disconnects in a raid - maybe theres another round of maybanhammers going around.


am at a loss for why I attempted what so many before me have tried to do. Reason with a Troll.

Labeling someone a troll because they disagree with you is poor argumentation at best. Keep this up, and this is why people wont take you seriously in the future. Having no point to banter with and resorting to "I know you are but what am I" as well as name calling doesnt work. We used to eat this stuff for breakfast and grin while doing so on Xoriat.


ood Day, Happy Looting, and may the oops-ban never find your account!

If it does, I certainly wont panic on an issue where the cause was found and guilt admitted in less than 12 hours. If I was REALLY offended by all this, I wouldnt be here right now typing this. I would be budgeting my new found free time. There are others who have had their run ins with CS (or the lack thereof) and dont stick around for more of the same when they are pushed too far. Those are the people I applaud in this situation.

[Ebuddy]

1. Turbine made a mistake.
2. Turbine admitted as such.
3. Turbine rescinded their actions to those who were wronged.
4. Turbine practively provided remuneration to those who were affected.
5. Turbine did all this in about 24 hours.

What the h-e-double-toothpicks more do you people want? Do you want a technical schematic of what went wrong? Do you want to know that employees of Turbine, responsible for the error, were disciplined? You won't get either (nor should you).

This is a game folks. Sure, I understand the some people devote a LOT of time to it and you believe that your time has value. I won't argue with you but this continued insistence on answers is just plain silly. If this is the last straw, don't tell us, tell Turbine - then leave.

[PopeJual]

I provided actionable feedback that did not violate forum guidelines about how I dont support the rep system. The fact that more people agree with me than disagree with me is literally what I am speaking of, as the rep system isnt supposed to be used for applauding agreement or griefing disagreement.

+1 because I agree with this.

[Chai]

Your problem is you are trying to over simplify as you all too often do. This isn't an issue of being to stressful for the majority of the people involved. This is an issue of outrageous and egregious actions (and no I'm not one of the people that was affected by this mass banning) taken by a company, first by the en mass banning and then by the quelling of any questioning and dissent by en mass deletion, and the people voicing their distaste of the events and how they were handled.

There is no oversimplification. A 24 hour wait would have culled 75% of the sheiststorm we saw yesterday. I was saying this in quite a few threads that got deleted before the Turbine response admitting their mistake was put on the forums BTW. Hinnsight might be 20/20 but foresight and using knowledge gained through past experiences here would have paid dividends.


With that some people decided to respond back in kind with their wallets, with P/F2P some of that effect won't be felt right now with an exit survey and a loss in immediate revenue but in time when revenues fall from a decline in player base because of such mishandling of situations of this magnitude.

My case is both for the state of the player AND the state of the company. For the player: If playing DnD is causing more stress than it helps to relieve, for whatever reason, including but not limited to bad CS, then those people make the right decision by doing something else with their spare time.

As far as sending a message to the company: If every single person who complains this hard when these things happen all of a sudden left, they would certainly feel it. Again I bring up SWG. Alot of the NerdRage® seen on those boards was similar to what we see here, complete with lots of threats of quitting if the company's antics continued down the same path. What was different is when the customer satisfaction wasnt met over a decent period of time, there was a huge exodus of the customer base. Yeah it takes time and happens in stages, but ultimately it sends the message - a message that cant be sent by mass complaining and mass staying around, which I have never seen in any other MMO to this degree - even the ones with many times the quantity of customers.

A good portion of the people trying to verbally throttle me for bringing this up were threatening to quit in the WoP nerf debacle, where I also brought this up, as well as a few other issues like the U5 update. Lo and behold most of them are still here to banter back and forth with the same emotional tenacity about this issue. What message did they send again? You better stop pushing us around, or we will continue to allow you to push us around even more in the future!! :D Here we are in that future, complete with smoking delorian and flaming tire tracks. We may think we have avoided the "Libyans" chasing us in the gutted out ice cream truck, but no, they are waiting for us at the next intersection where the next CS issue will occur, and all we have to banter with is a bunch of plutonium pinball machine parts. RUN MARTY!!!!

[Zippo]

Oh god book three. The proverbial screenshot or it didnt happen post. Yeap, 20+ years of CS speaks for itself. Most of that is working for a software company who sees more flaming on their boards monthly than Turbine sees yearly. The people whose issues DO get resolved, are those who dont panic, and get on the phone with technical support, or send an email to the same. Long after their issues are resolved, the NerdRagers® are still rioting on the forum, tossing heir pixelated poo at one and other And you seemingly continue to fling your pixelated poo after the "apology" to the masses, long after the company admitted THEY messed up, you continue to condemn people for speaking up against a mishandling of a situation . This happens at MANY software companies, and not just Turbine. ut let me guess, youre going to ask for 8 years of education as credentials before any statement can be quantified, but you wont do this to those that agrere with you. This is will lead you down the path of people not taking you seriously, real quick. You assume that you have been taken seriously



Is there a problem officer? Wait wait wait...did you just say meow.

If being a forum cop is all you have to banter with, I suggest not hitting the panic button, and approaching the situation logically next time, k? I am not violating rules here.

I'm sorry but what does this have to do with being a forum cop??? I mean really if you are going to go off into this acid trip reminiscent type illogical rant at least give us a disclaimer warning of such. He simply pointed out how your opinion of what happened, that you consistently try to pass of as fact, has no bearing in merit unless you are an employee of Turbine and breaking what would logically be part of a non-disclosure agreement or are party to someone who is breaking said agreement.

Yo dawg, I heard ya like complaining. We went over this remember.

See below

Yo dawg, I heard ya like complaining. We went over this remember.

While I didn't care to go back and read all of the bantering between you two in this thread what he accuses you of here in both of these I can say with a degree of certainty that you have been guilty of such in the past and presumably doing the same thing here.

I provided actionable feedback that did not violate forum guidelines about how I dont support the rep system. The fact that more people agree with me than disagree with me is literally what I am speaking of Mere conjecture, as the rep system isnt supposed to be used for applauding agreement or griefing disagreement. Id like to see how you are going to try to counter this, logically. Your self contradiction just played itself full circle.

So the simple fact that I agree with someone making a valid point should be met with no reinforcement and support. Ok gotcha, you believe in the mindless robot mentality

Again, I provide feedbackwithout going over the line. Can the NerdRioters® of 2010 claim the same. What you are seeing here on these boards is what happens when people contact others when emotionally charged. Its the equivilent of calling a CS rep when a product doesnt work and dropping a bunch of F bombs. You wont be speaking with their manager. You will be having a nice chat with a dial tone.

Now this one I find funny, the reason I find it funny is because you mention right at the beginning that "Again, I provide feedbackwithout going over the line". You then just 3 words into the very next sentence proceed to insult anyone who got upset over this debacle.


Sucks that you have to interpret it this way just to have ammo to banter with, but this is clearly not the case.



VS what? the emotionally charged knee jerk reaction we saw today, and every time before when Turbine made a decision people dont agree with. You do realize most people will be laughing about all this in a week and using it as a sarcastic reference in their jokes. When there is lag nowdays there is always one person in the bunch that says "dont blame me guys, I am only swinging one weapon" - I can see it already when someone disconnects in a raid - maybe theres another round of maybanhammers going around.

Yes it could be a knee jerk reaction, but why? What is the one key thing that fear originates from? Lack of information. Instead of addressing concerns of the player base they decided to quiet the masses who had just been coldly thrown out on the doorstep for things that they didn't even know about.

Labeling someone a troll because they disagree with you is poor argumentation at best. Keep this up, and this is why people wont take you seriously in the future. Having no point to banter with and resorting to "I know you are but what am I" as well as name calling doesnt work. We used to eat this stuff for breakfast and grin while doing so on Xoriat.

World English Dictionary
troll 1 (trəʊl)

— vb
1. angling
a. to draw (a baited line, etc) through the water, often from a boat
b. to fish (a stretch of water) by trolling
c. to fish (for) by trolling
2. to roll or cause to roll
3. archaic to sing (a refrain, chorus, etc) or (of a refrain, etc) to be sung in a loud hearty voice
4. informal ( Brit ) ( intr ) to walk or stroll
5. homosexual slang ( intr ) to stroll around looking for sexual partners; cruise
6. slang ( intr ) computing to post deliberately inflammatory articles on an internet discussion board


Let's take a look at this case of trolling first.

http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab48/hifi74/Chaitroll.jpg?t=1289485571

Then there is case of trolling

http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab48/hifi74/Chaitroll2.jpg?t=1289489508

And just for effect, lets take a look at a third case of trolling.

http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab48/hifi74/Chaitroll3.jpg?t=1289489578


All of this also goes along real nicely with another previous statement of yours that I pointed out earlier
Again, I provide feedbackwithout going over the line Sorry but you troll, and you troll a LOT.


If it does, I certainly wont panic on an issue where the cause was found and guilt admitted in less than 12 hours. If I was REALLY offended by all this, I wouldnt be here right now typing this. I would be budgeting my new found free time. There are others who have had their run ins with CS (or the lack thereof) and dont stick around for more of the same when they are pushed too far. Those are the people I applaud in this situation.

In red.

[stainer]

In red.

Game, set, match.

[HernandoCortez]

Many peacemakers and fanboys around, not in this thread specifically but all over. It seems that their consensus its pretty much like "ok, sh*t happens, we got our 100 TPs now lets get over it and do some questing together".

Its obvious that some people will still be annoyed or angry after what happened. Its their right to be. Its their right to vent their frustration so Turbine knows how good they screwed up things this time. You coming here and criticizing or saying "you're crying too much" won't make them feel any better neither change the whole situation. Its not you fanboys job to come here and do that. Its Turbine's. IF they care about it. If you don't want to read people talking about it, go play the game or take your dog for a walk.

What happened, happened but it shows how weak are some of Turbine's procedures and rules. Now its their turn to see how much they p****d off people and make sure it won't happen again.

[Thrudh]

I believe the simple thing you are trying to say is "Two wrongs don't make a right." And I agree. But, a lot of the venom, right or wrong, could have been avoided if Turbine would have said something along the lines of "We don't know what's going on. We don't know why. We are looking into it, please be patient," instead of the thread deletions (again, I know that the rules dictated that they should be deleted) and the wall of silence that "we" got instead.

That was the 3am moderator who decided not to wake anyone up who was senior enough to make such a post...

As soon as they got in the next morning, they DID make that post "We're looking into it", and a few hours later, they admitted their mistake, and fixed it.

Their response (in BUSINESS hours) was pretty quick.

Turbine screwed up.... People over-reacted badly... That's normal around here.

My blood pressure never goes through the roof because I can see the forest while way too many of the forumites here can only see trees...

I post to offer a different perspective... Maybe not getting to play a video game for one night ISN'T the worst thing that ever happened to you.

[HernandoCortez]

I post to offer a different perspective... Maybe not getting to play a video game for one night ISN'T the worst thing that ever happened to you.

This time I'll have to disagree with you but what many people call "only a video game" its a business for Turbine and it costs money to most of us. So if theres money involved, hell yeah, I wanna be assured I won't lose it to a robot mistake, a moody employee or bad management. I want to know my money is taken seriously by Turbine and they treat me well as customer like any good company should do.

[Thrudh]

1. Turbine made a mistake.
2. Turbine admitted as such.
3. Turbine rescinded their actions to those who were wronged.
4. Turbine practively provided remuneration to those who were affected.
5. Turbine did all this in about 24 hours.

What the h-e-double-toothpicks more do you people want? Do you want a technical schematic of what went wrong? Do you want to know that employees of Turbine, responsible for the error, were disciplined? You won't get either (nor should you).

This is a game folks. Sure, I understand the some people devote a LOT of time to it and you believe that your time has value. I won't argue with you but this continued insistence on answers is just plain silly. If this is the last straw, don't tell us, tell Turbine - then leave.

This... +1

[cpito]

5. Turbine did all this in about 16 hours.

;)

[Chai]

He simply pointed out how your opinion of what happened, that you consistently try to pass of as fact, has no bearing in merit unless you are an employee of Turbine and breaking what would logically be part of a non-disclosure agreement or are party to someone who is breaking said agreement.

This is a great blanket statement anyone can use any time to banter against any issue anywhere on the forums. Your stance on this issue has no meaning unless youre a Turbine employee. So now 99.9% of all posts are meaningless. Brilliant!!! - Not.

This is incorrect however, or would be if you actually listened to a word I said, and take the advice offered. Very few do this, because to do so negates a perfectly good moaning opportunity to complain about shoddy CS, then log into the game and continue to support it afterward. I will repeat myself here of course, but here goes....

Players stances do have meaning, because a paying customer lost is revenue lost. Or at least it would have meaning, if people chose to vote with their wallets every time they claim to be deeply peeved and offended by an issue. The fact that most dont do this is an indicator that a mandate is in place for these CS incidents to continue, sans rectification of the system.

I could care less about your rules lawyering and definitions - if you want to tell me I am complaining about complainers, I will tell you you are trolling to prove someone is a troll by a very narrow definition. We can play the "I know you are but what am I" game forever, or you can re-up to the facts here. And the facts support what I am saying, which you two are trying to derail by bogging it down with technicalities and rules based arguements.

What I have been saying is: Complaining and remaining doesnt send the same message as asking for rectification of an issue and leaving if that rectification doesnt come to pass.

If you want to respond to this, fine, but I could care less about how you feel about the technicalities of how I am responding or your rules lawyerisms. Stick to the facts, and tell me how all the NerdRage® without people leaving actually helped this issue, and actually contributes to these issues not happening in the future. I think the past shows that it doesnt. Prove me wrong. Or try. I think you are tangenting because you cant. You dont think I am incorrect. You hate the fact that I am correct, and want to banter technicalities and bog everything down in procedure to stray from the facts at hand onthis actual issue.

[floating]

There is your long awaited appology. Turbine is fessing up and doing the right thing, like I knew they would. Too many people wanting their pound of flesh, not willing to just wait and let Turbine fix the problem.

Mistakes happen, lets get on to some happy gaming.

Good Job Turbine.

Id like to point out to you that if people hadnt made any noise, it's likely that no response would have been given.

[floating]

What I find to be the worst part of this incident is the harm caused to the image of this game. It is an excellent MMO, and it has so much more potential than turbine has allowed it to realize. DDO was moving up with the introduction of ftp and revamping of UI ... etc etc. We will have to wait and see how this affects the game. Some people need some serious coaching on customer service and business management; I hope this has been instructive in the very least.

[LexxCoool]

Many peacemakers and fanboys around, not in this thread specifically but all over. It seems that their consensus its pretty much like "ok, sh*t happens, we got our 100 TPs now lets get over it and do some questing together".

Its obvious that some people will still be annoyed or angry after what happened. Its their right to be. Its their right to vent their frustration so Turbine knows how good they screwed up things this time. You coming here and criticizing or saying "you're crying too much" won't make them feel any better neither change the whole situation. Its not you fanboys job to come here and do that. Its Turbine's. IF they care about it. If you don't want to read people talking about it, go play the game or take your dog for a walk.

What happened, happened but it shows how weak are some of Turbine's procedures and rules. Now its their turn to see how much they p****d off people and make sure it won't happen again.



Thank you for posting this. Oh, I am still MAD as Heck. I want to know why I was on a Ban list. Thought all of my guild would have been banned ; nope just me. So yes I am angry as heck. Why were me and the others banned, not everyone, thats what we need to know. Oh and an answer within 24 hrs is a freaking joke! Someone from Turbmakesuswhine made us wait for 15 to 17 hrs before they replied anything at all....that is totally unacceptable.

[grodon9999]

Id like to point out to you that if people hadnt made any noise, it's likely that no response would have been given.

Fanbois can't get this through their thick skulls.

[PopeJual]

What the h-e-double-toothpicks more do you people want? Do you want a technical schematic of what went wrong? Do you want to know that employees of Turbine, responsible for the error, were disciplined? You won't get either (nor should you).

I want Turbine to actually say why people were banned in the email that tells them that they were banned. Not the bewildering, "A GM thoroughly researched your case and determined that you're a dirty cheater - but we're not going to get any more specific than that," email that people ended up getting.

[Missing_Minds]

Oh and an answer within 24 hrs is a freaking joke! Someone from Turbmakesuswhine made us wait for 15 to 17 hrs before they replied anything at all....that is totally unacceptable.

Spoken like the "entitled generation". Lets see here. They are a company who may have running services 24/7, but the company itself is an 8 hour a day company, much like others. Maybe 12 depending.

A person under authority runs an approved script and leaves allow the script to do its work. (my opinion on auto banning scripts is not relevant here.)

An hour, the forums explode. Use of language not allowed by guidelines forces moderator hands to lock and delete. I saw a few threads who's heads could keep cool that did not resort to threats, language, etc. were left open. (Mind you I had received a 7 day ban. And FYI, I was the only one in my group to get banned also.)

At this point it is about 10 PM CST. I feel sick in my stomach that I apparently "cheated." but it is 10 PM. I realize any chance to resolve this will come later, probably the next day. Telero is doing the best she can and was obviously getting the raw side of the stick by the community. While this is an issue I seriously doubt there was any process already setup on who to call in a case like this. The servers were still up and running after all. It would have to be a priority thing come morning.

We get an answer at about noon the next day. So that is about... 14 hours that I had to deal with that. Of which only 2 were NOT spent sleeping or at work. To call together an emergency meeting normally takes 10-30 minutes, with about 30 odd minutes for the meeting. Now take another 1-2 hours to figure out just what happened. At that point the next meeting (probably at about 11 or 12 their time) is had. During which talks of what was found out of what happened, how it happened, how to address the customer base, and how to make certain it does not happen again are addressed. Typically after the meeting is when we'd get a flow down.

This was not a case where a singular person could solve it all in 5 minutes. To expect that is a bit un realistic. Stop comparing it to a case were they stuck onions on your burger, and you complain to the on duty manager for a new one.

Turbine reacted within a timely fashion, honestly.

[Missing_Minds]

I want Turbine to actually say why people were banned in the email that tells them that they were banned. Not the bewildering, "A GM thoroughly researched your case and determined that you're a dirty cheater - but we're not going to get any more specific than that," email that people ended up getting.

I don't mind if they leave it a little vague still, for example the below.

"you were found to be not completing a quest as designed."

I like to think that most players are intelligent enough to put 2 and 2 together.

But yes, what was emailed was overly vague and not helpful. They should be helpful enough such to where I could understand where I did wrong.

[Chai]

Fanbois can't get this through their thick skulls.

Yeap everyone who disagrees with the masses is a Fanboi. Not.

This is why these issues will continue to occur. People interpret disagreement with the virtual riots as 100% complete agreement with Turbine. It all black and white right? Wrong.

[grodon9999]

Yeap everyone who disagrees with the masses is a Fanboi. Not.


True, some of them are just naive. You'd have to be to think Turbine would have reacted so quickly if there wasn't a riot.

[Zippo]

This is a great blanket statement anyone can use any time to banter against any issue anywhere on the forums. Your stance on this issue has no meaning unless youre a Turbine employee. So now 99.9% of all posts are meaningless. Brilliant!!! - Not.

When you try to state your opinion as fact, yes it that does tend to give your stance no real credence. Your obtuseness however rears it's ugly head again


This is incorrect however, or would be if you actually listened to a word I said, and take the advice offered. Very few do this, because to do so negates a perfectly good moaning opportunity to complain about shoddy CS, then log into the game and continue to support it afterward. I will repeat myself here of course, but here goes....

Players stances do have meaning, because a paying customer lost is revenue lost. Or at least it would have meaning, if people chose to vote with their wallets every time they claim to be deeply peeved and offended by an issue. The fact that most dont do this is an indicator that a mandate is in place for these CS incidents to continue, sans rectification of the system.

I could care less about your rules lawyering and definitions - if you want to tell me I am complaining about complainers, I will tell you you are trolling to prove someone is a troll by a very narrow definition. We can play the "I know you are but what am I" game forever, or you can re-up to the facts here. And the facts support what I am saying, which you two are trying to derail by bogging it down with technicalities and rules based arguements.

What I have been saying is: Complaining and remaining doesnt send the same message as asking for rectification of an issue and leaving if that rectification doesnt come to pass.

As for the rest of it I heard you just fine, despite your thinking that I didn't, I just don't agree with all of it.


If you want to respond to this, fine, but I could care less about how you feel about the technicalities of how I am responding or your rules lawyerisms. Stick to the facts, and tell me how all the NerdRage® without people leaving actually helped this issue, and actually contributes to these issues not happening in the future. I think the past shows that it doesnt. Prove me wrong. Or try. I think you are tangenting because you cant. You dont think I am incorrect. You hate the fact that I am correct, and want to banter technicalities and bog everything down in procedure to stray from the facts at hand onthis actual issue.

The simple fact that you continue to try and insult people who don't agree with you with the "NerdRage®" schtick is enough to say that you don't care what others think and you are above their reproach. You're an obvious troll, just admit it and you would look like less of a loon.

As to your attempt at a circular logic gotcha attempt with this little gem right here:


Stick to the facts, and tell me how all the NerdRage® without people leaving actually helped this issue, and actually contributes to these issues not happening in the future.

it's the proverbial "does God exist?" question. People have their theories one way or the other, but in the truest sense of the form there is no facts, only guesses. you tried to pander YOUR theories off as unequivocal proof and when called on it tried to folley them into doing the same thing. Sorry Chai, your veiled attempt at being clever just doesn't work.

[Chai]

As for the rest of it I heard you just fine, despite your thinking that I didn't, I just don't agree with all of it.



See you actually do agree with me, even though you are trying vehemently not to. I find this alot in the small crowd of people who disagree with Chai simply because he is Chai. When I say the same thing people try to banter some nonsense about how complaining about other people complaining, so you can complain while you complain.

I dont agree with you, plain and simple. That doesnt make me all of the things you say I am just because you get a little butthurt over a disagreement on the internet.

You still havent responded to the real message I sent and asked for a response on. Because you cant sans self contradiction. Your strategy is to bog everything down with rules lawyerisms and strict absolute definitions making everything sound black and white.

Welcome to the gray area. My opinion stands, because I am a paying customer, and holds just as much weight as yours or anyone elses. Lighten up Frances. Or dont, which may actually be more entertaining.

[Chai]

True, some of them are just naive. You'd have to be to think Turbine would have reacted so quickly if there wasn't a riot.

Being experienced in software CS, I have a clear understanding that customers who approach their issue with a level head get their issue resolved the quickest, while those who just want to have an emotionally charged forum riot will still be trying to trumpet how much the company sucks long after the level headed individuals have had their issue fixed, and forgotten about it.

Who wins in the end? The people who caused themselves the least amount of stress over the topic at hand.

But hey. No refunds on the pitchforks fellas. You bought em, you own em. :p

[PopeJual]

Yeap everyone who disagrees with the masses is a Fanboi. Not.

This is why these issues will continue to occur. People interpret disagreement with the virtual riots as 100% complete agreement with Turbine. It all black and white right? Wrong.

And anyone who disagrees with you is a member of the NerdRaging Riot Nation.

The fact that you argue against hyperbole while engaging in it yourself is both annoying and unhelpful.

[Chai]

And anyone who disagrees with you is a member of the NerdRaging Riot Nation.

Please quote where I stated this.

Not only cant this be done, but there are several instances where people I agreed with were also taking part in the NerdRiot®


The fact that you argue against hyperbole while engaging in it yourself is both annoying and unhelpful.

Want to disagree with me, cool. I asked for an answer to one question and never got it. What I did get is alot of criticism and rules lawyerisms tossed at my method of arguementation.

Question still isnt answered. I pretty much know why, and so do you. Cant stand the fact that Im telling the truth and theres no way to prove it otherwise, so lets tangent the entire discussion. The reason why this fails is because I will keep bringing the conversation back to the exact same question, no matter how much you want to tangent off it in hopes that I will forget.

[Zippo]

You still havent responded to the real message I sent and asked for a response on. Because you cant sans self contradiction. Your strategy is to bog everything down with rules lawyerisms and strict absolute definitions making everything sound black and white.

I responded, I told you there are no facts. And trying to get me to fall into a gotcha trap isn't going to work. And just because I said that don't completely agree with you doesn't mean I completely agree with you. You made one partially valid point through all of your psychobabble infused rants and your attempts as circular logic.

"You said people should put their money where their mouth is" (paraphrasing of course)

and to that end I agree, but I think they should only feel that they have to when all other avenues have been exhausted. This grandiose idea you have of your self-importance
I find this alot in the small crowd of people who disagree with Chai simply because he is Chai is laughable at best. I find it mostly sad and pathetic though. Keep trying though Chai, one day you might actually make it big.

[Zippo]

Question still isnt answered. I pretty much know why, and so do you. Cant stand the fact that Im telling the truth and theres no way to prove it otherwise, so lets tangent the entire discussion. The reason why this fails is because I will keep bringing the conversation back to the exact same question, no matter how much you want to tangent off it in hopes that I will forget.


Well you are right about one thing

your opinion being cited as truth


theres no way to prove it

[Riggs]

NOT HAPPY. My new thread was deleted again.

Except in your case....nvmd I would probably get infractions for saying how much your posts have been worth.

Good luck on that 'Turbine is banning people that dont spend enough points and cause YOU lag' argument. I mean thats a real winner there.

I am truly shocked something you posted got deleted. Really, really shocked.

[Jesenne]

Greetings, everyone!

I have read the concerns involving our method of suspending accounts for using exploits within the game, and many of you believe that we use an automated system to do so. This is not the case.

We handle several types of investigations – from harassment to gold farming issues. Exploits are handled through another process in which we conduct investigations into exploits, and those suspected of using them. We determine the behavior of the exploit (just what does someone have to do in order to accomplish it and is it possible to “accidentally” do it), what benefit they’re receiving from the exploit, and then develop a criteria with which to ferret out individuals involved. From there, we review the data and determine the appropriate response. Each step of this process is reviewed by team members, and in this case there was a step in the process that went awry, resulting in the errors, and users receiving warnings (and in the extreme cases, temporary suspensions).

As Tolero stated in her original post, it was a technical problem – once we identified what caused the issue, we were able to correct it, and we reversed all warnings and suspensions that were incorrectly implemented. We are further refining our process to prevent this sort of issue in the future. Emails have been sent to the affected accounts, and the 100 Turbine Points have been credited to affected users.

[PopeJual]

Please quote where I stated this.

Not only cant this be done, but there are several instances where people I agreed with were also taking part in the NerdRiot®

I also didn't see vast swarms of people insisting that, "Yeap everyone who disagrees with the masses is a Fanboi."

[Chai]

Well you are right about one thing

your opinion being cited as truth

And the question still not being answered. And the reason why its not being answered.

The wheels on the tangents go round and round....

[stoolcannon]

Greetings, everyone!

I have read the concerns involving our method of suspending accounts for using exploits within the game, and many of you believe that we use an automated system to do so. This is not the case.

We handle several types of investigations – from harassment to gold farming issues. Exploits are handled through another process in which we conduct investigations into exploits, and those suspected of using them. We determine the behavior of the exploit (just what does someone have to do in order to accomplish it and is it possible to “accidentally” do it), what benefit they’re receiving from the exploit, and then develop a criteria with which to ferret out individuals involved. From there, we review the data and determine the appropriate response. Each step of this process is reviewed by team members, and in this case there was a step in the process that went awry, resulting in the errors, and users receiving warnings (and in the extreme cases, temporary suspensions).

As Tolero stated in her original post, it was a technical problem – once we identified what caused the issue, we were able to correct it, and we reversed all warnings and suspensions that were incorrectly implemented. We are further refining our process to prevent this sort of issue in the future. Emails have been sent to the affected accounts, and the 100 Turbine Points have been credited to affected users.

Thank you for the additional information. I appreciate it.

[Trillea]

Greetings, everyone!

I have read the concerns involving our method of suspending accounts for using exploits within the game, and many of you believe that we use an automated system to do so. This is not the case.

We handle several types of investigations – from harassment to gold farming issues. Exploits are handled through another process in which we conduct investigations into exploits, and those suspected of using them. We determine the behavior of the exploit (just what does someone have to do in order to accomplish it and is it possible to “accidentally” do it), what benefit they’re receiving from the exploit, and then develop a criteria with which to ferret out individuals involved. From there, we review the data and determine the appropriate response. Each step of this process is reviewed by team members, and in this case there was a step in the process that went awry, resulting in the errors, and users receiving warnings (and in the extreme cases, temporary suspensions).

As Tolero stated in her original post, it was a technical problem – once we identified what caused the issue, we were able to correct it, and we reversed all warnings and suspensions that were incorrectly implemented. We are further refining our process to prevent this sort of issue in the future. Emails have been sent to the affected accounts, and the 100 Turbine Points have been credited to affected users.

My problem is with the way your customer service is nonexistant after a ban is in place. The email that accompanies a ban should provide a DETAILED ACCOUNT of whatever actions are causing a ban, and bans should be able to be appealed via phone. The email correspondence, in many cases, takes longer than the ban itself. This is what I find unacceptable and I am currently going through channels to try to affect change if at all possible.

[Chai]

I also didn't see vast swarms of people insisting that, "Yeap everyone who disagrees with the masses is a Fanboi."

No but I saw YOU state the implication, and I pointed it out. The fact that you cant stick to the conversation and have to resort to namecalling is the calling card of someone who ran out of ammo to banter with long ago, and has to resort to making it a personal conversation centered around the opposition - in this case, myself.

-which is laughable. You are trying to poke at an ego that doesnt exist.

Question still not answered. Another personal jaunt in attempt to tangent the conversation, fails.

The goad reporting potential died out here long ago, now answer the question please.

[Chai]

My problem is with the way your customer service is nonexistant after a ban is in place. The email that accompanies a ban should provide a DETAILED ACCOUNT of whatever actions are causing a ban, and bans should be able to be appealed via phone. The email correspondence, in many cases, takes longer than the ban itself. This is what I find unacceptable and I am currently going through channels to try to affect change if at all possible.

See now this I can agree with.

Here this individual demands satisfaction AND (and this is important here people!!) also at least in part details what they feel a resolution to the issue is, or a better way to approach the issue on the part of the company. Not only this, but also approaching the chain of command to turn this into a learning experience, rather than another mindless forum riot that will accomplish nothing regarding future interactions with the CS system, positive or negative.

I think someone may have paid attention in complaint letter writing class in high school / college.

[StarlancePanther]

Jesenne

my apologies for interupting this thread and seeing you are a member of the senior team and going by your previous postings you have stated that if there has been an issue raised within the game you and your team aim to identify the problem, fix the issue and im sure would post to advise us of this.

This in particular does not concern the happenings around the bans after mabar but in fact the issues that alot of us 'europeans' are having trying to get our characters transferred to Ghallanda.
You just have to read whats happening over here
http://forums.ddo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=242

In paticular the deadline given to us when the process started has now elapse, or is coming close to elapsing depending when the actual player submitted his transfer request.

2nd point is the lack of anyone senior re-assuring the mass of players who are requesting for answers to what is happening. Last senior management posted 7 days ago.

The transfer process may not be an issue that comes under your remit but as part of the 'Senior' team i would expect you to be able to liase with the member of the 'Senior' team that does deal with the issue. And for that 'Senior' post to let us know whats going on?

It shoudn't be the case that, and the general consensus it feels like it is that us Europeans are not getting the service that we expect of, especially as we are all paying the same US dollars to play the game.

Once again i apologise to all the posters in this thread for interupting, i do read as much of the forums as possible and i do feel for you all and the issues you have experienced over the last few days and i do hope that our issues are resolved just as quickly as they have been here.

Thank you

[Trillea]

Starlance, did you see this post made today? - http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3403767&postcount=229

[Zippo]

And the question still not being answered. And the reason why its not being answered.

The wheels on the tangents go round and round....

I'm sorry I figured the first two times of telling you that it can not be answered as "fact" was enough.

I realize you think that you are some glaring intellectual, but you are an amateur. Your opinion is not fact, it is conjecture, a hypothesis, supposition, theory, a hunch, guesswork nothing more. To try and pass it of as anything but is sad and pathetic on your part.

[Riggs]

LOL, I'm not even logged in at the moment. :D

Hey at least they got on it... That being said the REALculprits should be whacked just for causing the rest of the players all this. They KNEW exactly what they were doing... :cool:

You mean the programmers?

Who made a system "Go get as many motes as possible in as short a time as possible, and you wont know exactly how or why motes drop at any given time, but we are going to ban you if you get 'too good' at it?"

I mean yeah some people have always found really 'cheaty' ways to get past things in this game over the years - but it seems the vast majority of exploits and bannings have occured because of weaknesses in programming that allowed people holes to get things faster or easier - in a game that is a massive grind now that 'rewards' you for how fast and how good you are at getting shards/seals/xp/chests/raid loot everything else in the game...

Reward people for actions, then punish people for finding 'holes' that let them do it better? And drop a cone of silence on everyone and start swinging the ban hammer every update - once is a coincidence, twice is a line, three times is a pattern.

this kind of thing has happened far more than three times.

Since no one, or no one talking seems to even know what happened in the Mabar event that even caused this - why should anyone accept a vague explanation without complaint? "Someone did something, and an automated system banned a ton of people, some people have been unbanned"...case closed?

Making a program 100% reliable is probably next to impossible in today's world. However CHOOSING to drop a hammer on players over and over again, and then deleting all information about what was even going on - so non-exploiters are left dazed and confused over and over again because most people never even find out why - "Something went on that was punished, but you are not going to be told what because you might do it too, dont know how to avoid doing it in good faith, because you will be banned for even asking about it - have a nice day".

Sure people that are actively hacking the game, or doing something that is obvious to a blind monkey is a cheat of some sort should be banned - but people can be called an exploiter for standing on a ledge and shooting things with arrows too(Coal chamber *cough cough) - no one ever really knows where the line is between 'smart tactics' and exploiting is because no one ever gets to talk about it, and we only ever get 1 'This is WAI' explanation for every 20 issues that gets raised.

So hooray 'it was fixed, and some people unbanned, and here is a couple points'. I feel all informed and safe now.

Until the next event, and I will still have no idea what might get me banned if I participate, since that line between smart tactics and exploit is never going to be told to us unless we get that 1 in 20 lucky explanation.

[Tirkan]

Greetings, everyone!

I have read the concerns involving our method of suspending accounts for using exploits within the game, and many of you believe that we use an automated system to do so. This is not the case.

We handle several types of investigations – from harassment to gold farming issues. Exploits are handled through another process in which we conduct investigations into exploits, and those suspected of using them. We determine the behavior of the exploit (just what does someone have to do in order to accomplish it and is it possible to “accidentally” do it), what benefit they’re receiving from the exploit, and then develop a criteria with which to ferret out individuals involved. From there, we review the data and determine the appropriate response. Each step of this process is reviewed by team members, and in this case there was a step in the process that went awry, resulting in the errors, and users receiving warnings (and in the extreme cases, temporary suspensions).

As Tolero stated in her original post, it was a technical problem – once we identified what caused the issue, we were able to correct it, and we reversed all warnings and suspensions that were incorrectly implemented. We are further refining our process to prevent this sort of issue in the future. Emails have been sent to the affected accounts, and the 100 Turbine Points have been credited to affected users.

I appreciate the further information that you have provided here.

However, I'm curious about something - There's obviously some form of automation at a fairly high level involved in the process. In other words, there isn't a GM or an intern or someone sitting down at a computer and individually banning exploiters and flagging violators one by one, but the GMs develop a script to cull names from a database and ban/warn those particular individuals - and from what you're saying, it seems like there is(or was, in this particular situation) no case-by case review. The automated script that you use to cull names from the database bugged out in an unexpected manner and pulled names that were not actually exploiting. Is this interpretation true?

Or do you actually have a GM do case-by-case reviews? If so, what is the difficulty of telling people, at least in a general manner, what they were doing that was exploiting? I understand that in many cases, the exploitative behaviors are rather self evident, but all the same...this is, I think, the first MMO I've ever played in that has such opaque processes. Most of the time, exploits are announced by the Devs/General player base on the forums, and then people know exactly what is considered to be an exploit.

[StarlancePanther]

Starlance, did you see this post made today? - http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3403767&postcount=229

Trillea thank you i just did.

It was posted 45mins ago so i guess i was reading and absorbing your posts here and writing my own and missed the actual event of posting.

I just hope its not another 7 days and ... 45mins for the next update.

1st. For the record, i dont buy the 'Due to the higher than expected volume of transfer requests' line as they have had the database for many months now so were quite aware of the numbers potentially involved that would try to transfer.
2nd The fact that on day 1 (last monday) their transfer tooled buckled with the requests and had to be closed down till day 2.
3rd Even if they were only aware of the high volumes since it began last monday, No one, until now has come forward to say anything about these 'unexpected' high volumes.

[Chai]

I'm sorry I figured the first two times of telling you that it can not be answered as "fact" was enough.

I realize you think that you are some glaring intellectual, but you are an amateur. Your opinion is not fact, it is conjecture, a hypothesis, supposition, theory, a hunch, guesswork nothing more. To try and pass it of as anything but is sad and pathetic on your part.

More name calling, followed by an excuse for not being able to answer a question you cannot answer sans self contradiction. Contact me when you have the answer. The rest of this banter requires no further response.

[stainer]

Greetings, everyone!

I have read the concerns involving our method of suspending accounts for using exploits within the game, and many of you believe that we use an automated system to do so. This is not the case.

We handle several types of investigations – from harassment to gold farming issues. Exploits are handled through another process in which we conduct investigations into exploits, and those suspected of using them. We determine the behavior of the exploit (just what does someone have to do in order to accomplish it and is it possible to “accidentally” do it), what benefit they’re receiving from the exploit, and then develop a criteria with which to ferret out individuals involved. From there, we review the data and determine the appropriate response. Each step of this process is reviewed by team members, and in this case there was a step in the process that went awry, resulting in the errors, and users receiving warnings (and in the extreme cases, temporary suspensions).

As Tolero stated in her original post, it was a technical problem – once we identified what caused the issue, we were able to correct it, and we reversed all warnings and suspensions that were incorrectly implemented. We are further refining our process to prevent this sort of issue in the future. Emails have been sent to the affected accounts, and the 100 Turbine Points have been credited to affected users.

So there is no way you have maybe made this type of mistake in the past? Cough*cough*guild renown*cough
/yawn 8429 point(s) total - you are going to have to do it a bunch.

[Riggs]

Still reading, but did want to clarify: there was an exploit in the summoning chamber, but it has been fixed with today's patch. We are also reviewing our exploit suspension process in detail. Thanks for your patience and very sorry for the inconvenience!

The only rumor about what happened that seems to get repeated is that people were pulling the lever even when the dragon was not in the room below - to get more motes.

Maybe that is not why, but that seems to be the best guess at this point. If so Ban me too.

Since most of the runs - even trying to go into the chamber with a guild raid group - I was dumped into a mostly pug set of random people - I had my wizard keep the lever lit the whole time every time.

I usually had no communication about where the dragon was at any given time, and only knew that the light was supposed to be lit if the dragon appeared so people could damage it or whatever. Most runs had little or no communication at all and even knowing if all rooms were covered was a guess at best. And since I was jumping around firewalls trying to stay alive the whole time, I didnt stop to look into the room to see what was going on, as stopping meant getting hit 6 times in 1 second, and maybe getting stuck on top of appearing gargoyles (happened at least twice), and risking dying just to be able to see below.

Waiting until you saw the dragon say might be too late - and hitting the lever and being attacked by 20 gargoyles with no firewalls up yet is a stupid thing to do, so you cast a bunch of firewalls, and hope for the best.

And once in a late night run I wasnt in a party, and discovered that I was getting a ton more motes by not being in a party, I could see why maybe people were doing that and not being in groups - but I failed to see how that would matter in a dragon run - as as long as the person is keeping the light lit, and killing stuff - the dragon should die and you get your scale - which is the ENTIRE POINT of the event, since you couldnt buy scales - killing the dragon is the only thing that mattered for upgrades. So if all that was an exploit then I should be banned too.

So maybe this was not the reason, and I just wasted all this time typing. If it was it is a complete and utter failure on Turbine's part to figure out what players are GOING to do when you put a lever in front of them - that they HAVE to use to finish the event, and they can get more motes in certain conditions by keeping it lit - THEN punishing people for pulling that same freaking lever 'too much'....if that is the reason. (The release notes said something about it going 'braindead', since I only was in the room a few times, have no idea what that actually means)

But since Turbine never tells anyone what actually they see as the exploit - its all up in the air.

I look forward to the next set of bannings at the next event or raid released - because it is pretty much a guarantee given past history.

/roll d20

[toughguyjoe]

I agree with everything that has been said in this thread.

The above statement is a lie.

[zorander6]

So there is no way you have maybe made this type of mistake in the past? Cough*cough*guild renown*cough

I probably won't log in this weekend for this reason, bonus guild renown might get my little guild banned.

[Zippo]

More name calling, followed by an excuse for not being able to answer a question you cannot answer sans self contradiction. Contact me when you have the answer. The rest of this banter requires no further response.

Dude you are delusional, how many times do I have to tell you that your question can not be answered in the parameters of which you asked, that IS a fact unlike your suppositions of perceived fact? You're now using a red herring to try and divert from the fact that you can not deny asking an unanswerable question to your indefensible defense. At no time can someone answer a question to which they have no facts as factual. You can't seem to grasp that very simple concept after I have explained it too you multiple times already and therefore are not worth being considered worthy of anymore of my time on this subject.

[Riggs]

Oh and since apparently there is a 'automated detection system' for bannable offenses - why the great secrecy over never telling anyone what is an exploit?

I mean seriously, if an exploit can be detected - then just freaking TELL people what is going to be a bannable offense - and if they spread that knowledge and use it - they and everyone using it gets banned.

But most importantly - people that want to AVOID getting banned actually KNOW what it is they are not supposed to do.

Or keep doing things this way and make a big chunk of the player base extremely mad at Turbine EVERY SINGLE UPDATE where new raids/quests or events are added.

[Chai]

Dude you are delusional, how many times do I have to tell you that your question can not be answered in the parameters of which you asked, that IS a fact unlike your suppositions of perceived fact? You're now using a red herring to try and divert from the fact that you can not deny asking an unanswerable question to your indefensible defense. At no time can someone answer a question to which they have no facts as factual. You can't seem to grasp that very simple concept after I have explained it too you multiple times already and therefore are not worth being considered worthy of anymore of my time on this subject.

The question is answerable by most individuals. Because of the absolute rules and parameters you use to argue with do not allow you to go outside your arguementation box and state your opinion, and hold it against others, especially after you called them out for bantering their own opinions, you would be clowning yourself by actually answering the question. In order to not lose credit on the issue, you have to try to discredit myself further than you clowned yourself, which you cannot do under your own boxed in parameters. I didnt trap you, you trapped yourself, and then fell into it hook line and sinker. I merely observed and pointed it out.

The question is completely answerable. You are incorrect. A few people have actually answered it, and regardless if they agree with me or not, I admire that they have actually provided that information. These people also didnt try to banter that opinions of people who disagree with them are meaningless unless that person is a Turbine employee, or tried to back that up when someone else proclaimed it. A customers opinion always has meaning. No one ever wins an arguement with a customer. No one.

Trying to banter black and white in a gray world fails every time. When it gets called out, it usually results in massive tangenting of the conversation, namecalling, and waffling on the issue. Once you begin drawing absolute lines in a debate, you begin killing your own stance. Turn on a political debate one time and count how many times this happens. You will clearly understand why no one trusts these people after you do. When someone draws an absolute line, watch how fast their opponent jumps on it and begins driving the point home.

And you call me delusional? This is why I cant take you seriously. You just answer with more of the same.

Namecalling.

Fail.

[Riggs]

See you actually do agree with me, even though you are trying vehemently not to. I find this alot in the small crowd of people who disagree with Chai simply because he is Chai. When I say the same thing people try to banter some nonsense about how complaining about other people complaining, so you can complain while you complain.

I dont agree with you, plain and simple. That doesnt make me all of the things you say I am just because you get a little butthurt over a disagreement on the internet.

You still havent responded to the real message I sent and asked for a response on. Because you cant sans self contradiction. Your strategy is to bog everything down with rules lawyerisms and strict absolute definitions making everything sound black and white.

Welcome to the gray area. My opinion stands, because I am a paying customer, and holds just as much weight as yours or anyone elses. Lighten up Frances. Or dont, which may actually be more entertaining.

No - people disagree because your wrong, not because of what letters went into your name.

If you had of actually started anything out by saying you had an opinion there wouldnt be multiple pages of flaming going on - I got through about 2 pages of "I am speaking Truth, your wrong, and an idiot, and your a Nerdrager!". before giving up on looking for a real argument.

I seem to recall a long history of negative comments by someone with the letters in your name - so to quote "Your entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts".

Claim all the opinions you want, just realize they all seem to be wrong when it comes to players experience with Turbine (and logical arguments). To quote your own advice - YOU will be much less stressed not Nerdraging against other players over your own opinions.

Have a nice day.

[Chai]

Oh and since apparently there is a 'automated detection system' for bannable offenses - why the great secrecy over never telling anyone what is an exploit?

I mean seriously, if an exploit can be detected - then just freaking TELL people what is going to be a bannable offense - and if they spread that knowledge and use it - they and everyone using it gets banned.

But most importantly - people that want to AVOID getting banned actually KNOW what it is they are not supposed to do.

Or keep doing things this way and make a big chunk of the player base extremely mad at Turbine EVERY SINGLE UPDATE where new raids/quests or events are added.

Never buy first generation technology, translates to being wary of first generation updates. :D

It would make too much sense to outline what can and cant be done when known issues arise. How else are we going to be able to make stock shares in pitchforks and duct tape rise in price? These things dont just sell themselves.

[PopeJual]

No but I saw YOU state the implication, and I pointed it out. The fact that you cant stick to the conversation and have to resort to namecalling is the calling card of someone who ran out of ammo to banter with long ago, and has to resort to making it a personal conversation centered around the opposition - in this case, myself.

-which is laughable. You are trying to poke at an ego that doesnt exist.

Question still not answered. Another personal jaunt in attempt to tangent the conversation, fails.

The goad reporting potential died out here long ago, now answer the question please.

Could you quote that, please? Because I don't tend to use the word "fanboi" except when making fun of someone else who used the word previously. I actually used the forum search to check.

[kitsune_ko]

You are taking my words out of context. Yes, she came in and locked down or deleted about 12-15 threads in a matter of the first hour that I saw. Including two or three of my own threads. Whether you liked her actions or not, she has a very clear and specific set of guidelines she has to follow in order to keep her job. So, whether she agrees with what she has to do or not is of no importance here.

And I believe, and a few others my agree with me while quite a few disagree, that sacrificial lamb is a quite appropriate term. She's the one they march out in front of the teeming masses and delivers the news of the day; be it good, bad, or in between. She's the one that is getting the heat for the deleted and locked threads, even though they did clearly violate the rules for the forums. Whether the forum rules are too strict or not is not up for debate right now (I think they are, it should not be against the rules to talk about disciplinary actions when said actions are the result of a "technical malfunction"). She is not the end-all-be-all of the forums. She has her bosses she has to answer to, and if she doesn't follow the guidelines that they set out, it's her a$$ on the line. Would you put your job in jeopardy for your companies customers? While what she did is unpopular, she didn't have much of a choice but to do it. If you think you can do a better job without violating the guidelines, go right ahead and apply.

I don't condone deleting the threads in that manner. I don't agree with not admitting there is a problem, even if you're not sure what the problem is. I don't agree with trying keep things as quiet as possible and trying to make it seem that all is well. I think it's an insult to the player base. But, I know it's not her decision to do those things. The guidelines were in place long before she was the local forum-monger.


"I was just following orders..."


Now I know I heard that somewhere before? strange... Ah well, I am sure it will come to me eventually.

Seriously though, when it all hit the fan, obviously if she could not or would not say or do anything regarding this epic failure at Turbine, then she should have been contacting a higher up and getting them online doing it. An 8 or so hour delay is unacceptable for an event of this magnitude.

Ans anything would have been better then just deleting and/or locking every topic concering this massive problem. Ignoring a problem never makes it better, and ignoring customers never makes them any happier. Obviously Turbine needs some lessons in "damage control" and PR skills. Banning at the end of a work day, going home and saying "Let them eat cake" until into the next work day for any sort of official response or action is a terrible business practice.

And I am honestly of a mind that this was only resolved so quickly due to the large amount of players complaining and being heard on other sites and venues. And I do not blame them for doing so. Questions asked on the forums were locked or deleted as they were posted, phoning got a "not my department, make a e-mail complaint online" and a phone change as it was not toll-free call, e-mailing Turbine gets a "wait 3-4 days for a reply". Obviously responding to customer complaints or getting feedback from them is obviously very low priority.


Kit

[Zippo]

A bunch of psychobabble BS



You set the parameters not me. Your inability to recognize that is your own fault and ignorance not mine. Now like i said I'm done explaining this too you. You want to argue a different point without quoting your opinion as fact I'm all for that debate but this debate is called on the account of nescience on the field

[Chai]

No - people disagree because your wrong, not because of what letters went into your name.

Telling someone an opinion is wrong might be awesome entertainment, but its also not possible.


If you had of actually started anything out by saying you had an opinion there wouldnt be multiple pages of flaming going on - I got through about 2 pages of "I am speaking Truth, your wrong, and an idiot, and your a Nerdrager!". before giving up on looking for a real argument.

So here we are bantering the technicality of opinion -vs- fact again. 20 years of customer service in the software industry speaks for itself. I have seen MANY times that the procedure I outlined for handeling this would have turned out better results. Our forumites make Turbines look like Hello Kitty online adventure. We handle them pretty well, when they know how to communicate with us.


I seem to recall a long history of negative comments by someone with the letters in your name - so to quote "Your entitled to your own opinions, but you are not entitled to your own facts".

Really? negative comments? Or disagreement interpreted as being negative? When I am a paying customer my opinions ARE fact, just as every other paying customers are. Once you realize this, you understand the first principle of customer service, padawan.


Claim all the opinions you want, just realize they all seem to be wrong when it comes to players experience with Turbine (and logical arguments). To quote your own advice - YOU will be much less stressed not Nerdraging against other players over your own opinions.

Im not stressed at all. What I am observing here is very similar to what you are observing here, but youre not completing the observation - which I will now do.

-when it comes to players experience with Turbine (and logical arguments) ....which they will rage over like there is no tomorrow but not vote with their wallets on, which sends the message that Turbine has mandate to deliver more of the same with impunity.

Lets get this straight. My views on specific situations.

1. Player takes issue but doesnt throw a huge fit. Stays. - No problem. Usually when this player is in a better mindset they still make some heads roll over the issue, but its done properly through the chain of command, with no discipline or other negative reinforcement to themselves resulting from their now more rational, but equally assertive, actions.

2. Player gets hugely offended - demands satisfaction - when satisfaction is not delivered they leave. - No problem. If the player is really that stressed out over a video game leaving was the right thing to do, regardless if their stance is deemed 'right" or "wrong" by the rules lawyering forumites.

3. Player gets hugely offended - demands satisfaction - when satisfaction is not delivered they stay and attempt to be as disruptive as possible on the forums, which causes further discipline - and then they want to justify their actions by saying they would never have rioted if the screw up didnt happen in the first place. End result of this will be more of the same when the next big issue they disagree with Turbine on takes place. - I see more than one issue here. But the symptoms of this would all stop if they took the stance of 1 or 2. A company like Turbine usually has to use further negative reinforcement to make that happen, which is sad really, because we are all supposed to be rational grown ups. Give us anonymous internet handles, and we have seen how this ends up however, LOL.


Have a nice day.

Oh I will. I will. Just remember the no refund policy on the pitchforks. You bought em, you own em.

[Rumbaar]

It can really be that simple: loading the wrong file and not noticing.

And then voila, 20,000 people get in trouble instead of 20.I wonder how this glitch in loading a database resulted in differently word messages, and from warnings to 3-30 day bans then.

Like transformers, there is more than meets the eye going on here.

[Rumbaar]

We handle several types of investigations – from harassment to gold farming issues. Exploits are handled through another process in which we conduct investigations into exploits, and those suspected of using them. We determine the behavior of the exploit (just what does someone have to do in order to accomplish it and is it possible to “accidentally” do it), what benefit they’re receiving from the exploit, and then develop a criteria with which to ferret out individuals involved. From there, we review the data and determine the appropriate response. Each step of this process is reviewed by team members, and in this case there was a step in the process that went awry, resulting in the errors, and users receiving warnings (and in the extreme cases, temporary suspensions).How can you possible type this and have the masses receive the type of e-mail that got and be affected in the way they were and have us believe each case got thoroughly review.

I hope the same 'accidentally' thought is given to all future reviews, in the same way that 'less than a percent' of players can be accidentally banned from the game.

See below


So there is no way you have maybe made this type of mistake in the past? Cough*cough*guild renown*cough
/yawn 8429 point(s) total - you are going to have to do it a bunch.Exactly!! Can we get an investigation into a previous mass banning event? That in light of this event you cannot truly believe didn't affect innocents?!

Time for true transparency Turbine. Do you have the fortitude save to over come this?

[Chai]

You set the parameters not me. Your inability to recognize that is your own fault and ignorance not mine. Now like i said I'm done explaining this too you. You want to argue a different point without quoting your opinion as fact I'm all for that debate but this debate is called on the account of nescience on the field

There is only one point to argue here.

I can only set the parameters for my own position and how I outline it. I have nothing to do with yours. Here youre not even willing to take the responsibility for ones own self clowning, and STILL not answering the question, and then bowing out after all the one sided name calling you offered and tried to call "arguing a position".

Xoriat would have had you like a baby, heh. This kind of technicialty based rules lawyering banter barely illicited a grin or a response back then. I must be getting soft.

Toodles.

[Grecan]

*snif*

*snif*

...Is something rotten in the state of Denmark?

[Asketes]

Emails have been sent to the affected accounts, and the 100 Turbine Points have been credited to affected users.

I would prefer to just have the email apology.. I'm not one of the greedy bastards saying 100 TP isn't enough, or I want something else. I just elect to not be slapped in the face.


See, when grievances are paid out, they are supposed to make the one receiving them feel better; that is the whole point. you giving us 100 TP is similar to running my car over with a monster truck, and giving me the $1.50 required to cross the toll-bridge a mile down the road. It does me no good and makes me think turbine doesn't really appreciate the amount of gamers that were upset by this whole scenario and the way it went down.


Just the apology will do.


thank you for your response and time.

-Perma

[Stormanne]

I think I know the answer Chai is looking for, at least I think I do if his question is "Why will the people causing the biggest bluster over this going to still be here when the next SNAFU happens instead of voting with their wallets and taking their business elsewhere?"

And there are probably multiple answers to that question, depending on what side of the coin you fall.

One of the game fanboi answers could be "As mad as we are at the company (Turbine), DDO is still one of the best MMO experiences on the market and we are hard pressed to walk away from a good game, even if it is ran by a bad company."

One of the company fanboi answers could be along the lines of "Mistakes happen. Yeah, we were mad at Turbine, but look, they've admitted they made a mistake and are making amends for the game time lost."

And, one of the cynics fanbois answers would possibly look like "They're hypocrites. If you're going to make that much of a spectacle on the forums over technical problem that lead to an accidental slight, just go. You'll be back in two months anyways."

From what I've seen of all the people who posted that were affected, there are no absolute answers behind their behavior. You can deal with absolutes for items and information, but not so much on the actions of people and how they will process the items and information.

[Zippo]

There is only one point to argue here.

I can only set the parameters for my own position and how I outline it. I have nothing to do with yours. Here youre not even willing to take the responsibility for ones own self clowning, and STILL not answering the question, and then bowing out after all the one sided name calling you offered and tried to call "arguing a position".

Xoriat would have had you like a baby, heh. This kind of technicialty based rules lawyering banter barely illicited a grin or a response back then. I must be getting soft.

Toodles.

Dude, what part of I am done with this argument with you is so terribly hard for you to understand? But I'll try again, just in case your just slow processing


Stick to the facts, and tell me how all the NerdRage® without people leaving actually helped this issue, and actually contributes to these issues not happening in the future.

Your question is not answerable because there are no facts to prove or disprove your OPINION. You are trying to assert that your opinion is fact, when it is not. You are trying to make the argument that because I refuse to make the same error that you have habitually made in this thread that you are by default correct and that is a blanket fallacy. You are trying to get me to make a quantitative response on something that can only be answered qualitatively.

Now again; you're wrong, you've been proven wrong continually, now go away with what little bit of dignity you might actually have left. I'm done with this argument with you.

[Zippo]

I think I know the answer Chai is looking for, at least I think I do if his question is "Why will the people causing the biggest bluster over this going to still be here when the next SNAFU happens instead of voting with their wallets and taking their business elsewhere?"

And there are probably multiple answers to that question, depending on what side of the coin you fall.

One of the game fanboi answers could be "As mad as we are at the company (Turbine), DDO is still one of the best MMO experiences on the market and we are hard pressed to walk away from a good game, even if it is ran by a bad company."

One of the company fanboi answers could be along the lines of "Mistakes happen. Yeah, we were mad at Turbine, but look, they've admitted they made a mistake and are making amends for the game time lost."

And, one of the cynics fanbois answers would possibly look like "They're hypocrites. If you're going to make that much of a spectacle on the forums over technical problem that lead to an accidental slight, just go. You'll be back in two months anyways."

From what I've seen of all the people who posted that were affected, there are no absolute answers behind their behavior. You can deal with absolutes for items and information, but not so much on the actions of people and how they will process the items and information.

No what he is looking for is for me to try and make an argument of fact based off of my opinion. I'm just not dumb enough to fall into his gotcha ruse he continues to carry on with.

[Chai]

I think I know the answer Chai is looking for, at least I think I do if his question is "Why will the people causing the biggest bluster over this going to still be here when the next SNAFU happens instead of voting with their wallets and taking their business elsewhere?"

And there are probably multiple answers to that question, depending on what side of the coin you fall.

Yeap.


One of the game fanboi answers could be "As mad as we are at the company (Turbine), DDO is still one of the best MMO experiences on the market and we are hard pressed to walk away from a good game, even if it is ran by a bad company."

This stance fails to send the message people are trying to send, which is "this needs to stop". We have seen this time and again through quite a few different forum riots on different issues throughout the games history.


One of the company fanboi answers could be along the lines of "Mistakes happen. Yeah, we were mad at Turbine, but look, they've admitted they made a mistake and are making amends for the game time lost."

This is the "Im over it" message. - Usually sent by people who really werent that offended by the screw up inthe first place. The shut up and play crowd is usually content to shut up and play, heh.


And, one of the cynics fanbois answers would possibly look like "They're hypocrites. If you're going to make that much of a spectacle on the forums over technical problem that lead to an accidental slight, just go. You'll be back in two months anyways."

Different reaction, but same message sent as the first one. Its basically a mandate for them to keep managing the system in the same failed manner the player doesnt agree with. We have seen years of this already.


From what I've seen of all the people who posted that were affected, there are no absolute answers behind their behavior. You can deal with absolutes for items and information, but not so much on the actions of people and how they will process the items and information.

I have seen quite a few people answer that very question. The two I agree with so far are.

1. Screw this I am leaving. - This issue was likely the last straw for them and since they paid their entertainment dollar to play a game and that game caused them more stress than it was worth to them, they moved on. Good on them. Voting with your wallet DOES send a message.

2. I am just as peeved as the rioters, but I am going to seek closure on the issue though proper channels. - Heads will still roll, but the player is using rational judgement and is not going to partake in further actions that could result in their discipline. This is how rational adults handle these situations. When their issue has long been resolved, the rioters who didnt go this route will still be moaning about this issue in the only way they know how - by causing as big of a scene as possible, and justifying it as the only action that would have garnered a timely response. Good on them. Get to the root of the issue and affect change, rather than continually complaining about the symptoms, to no effect.

There might be more I agree with, but I have not seen them yet.

[Chai]

No what he is looking for is for me to try and make an argument of fact based off of my opinion. I'm just not dumb enough to fall into his gotcha ruse he continues to carry on with.

Incorrect.

I asked you to answer a question. You have already made two statements in the past and cant answer that question sans self contradiction at least once, and maybe even twice. You have also made plenty of excuses for not answering, all of which fail.

There is no ruse. There is only zuul. And your lack of ability to have a civil disagreement sans name calling.

Now answer the question.

[Film]

Chai has his opinions that have become factual after 20 years of Customer Service in a gaming industry. He understands how situations should be controlled in that realm. I made my opinions, that is all I have is my opinion, about the situation based on Customer Service/Quality Assurance provided by commercial contractors to government entities. This is where I build my perspective from.

Simply he has a broad brush in which grey occurs often when the one spectrum scale crosses another. My experience is based on set expectations and set parameters. Very fine brushes used to paint clear lines. There is no grey or you are looking at jail time and heavy fines for obligating the government without specific written permission.

It is a difference in opinion based upon perspective and it is a tale as old as time. I see his side of it and I understand my side of it. I tried to provide light humor to a cover up. That's what this is. There are just too many contradictions for it not to be. A few too many story spins. We just see it differently. He has every right to discuss his point and when I determined that we hit an impassible chasm. I stopped. I can only suggest others do too. We are merely providing entertainment to others while actually taking the spotlight off of the culprits (both sides of the original issue has culprits).

I received some nice red dings to go with the green and it was entertaining. That is what I believe gaming forums are meant to be.

I will fully accept if I am viewing this incorrectly. I also accept that it started as fun and turned Xoriat! Let it go and let's get a front row seat to the next Turbine SNAFU. That is where the real fun lies. Anyone want to start squares and a pay pool?

[Zippo]

Incorrect.

I asked you to answer a question. You have already made two statements in the past and cant answer that question sans self contradiction at least once you are correct I am not going to answer a question that is intended as an obvious "ooooooh see you agree with me" by doing exactly what I called you out for, and maybe even twice. You have also made plenty of excuses for not answering, all of which fail.

There is no ruse. There is only zuul. And your lack of ability to have a civil disagreement.

Now answer the question.

Dude, I answered you by showing the fallacy of your argument and you still continue on after telling you I'm done with this argument. Drop it! I'm sick of your hypocrisy and lies.

[LexxCoool]

Spoken like the "entitled generation". Lets see here. They are a company who may have running services 24/7, but the company itself is an 8 hour a day company, much like others. Maybe 12 depending.

A person under authority runs an approved script and leaves allow the script to do its work. (my opinion on auto banning scripts is not relevant here.)

An hour, the forums explode. Use of language not allowed by guidelines forces moderator hands to lock and delete. I saw a few threads who's heads could keep cool that did not resort to threats, language, etc. were left open. (Mind you I had received a 7 day ban. And FYI, I was the only one in my group to get banned also.)

At this point it is about 10 PM CST. I feel sick in my stomach that I apparently "cheated." but it is 10 PM. I realize any chance to resolve this will come later, probably the next day. Telero is doing the best she can and was obviously getting the raw side of the stick by the community. While this is an issue I seriously doubt there was any process already setup on who to call in a case like this. The servers were still up and running after all. It would have to be a priority thing come morning.

We get an answer at about noon the next day. So that is about... 14 hours that I had to deal with that. Of which only 2 were NOT spent sleeping or at work. To call together an emergency meeting normally takes 10-30 minutes, with about 30 odd minutes for the meeting. Now take another 1-2 hours to figure out just what happened. At that point the next meeting (probably at about 11 or 12 their time) is had. During which talks of what was found out of what happened, how it happened, how to address the customer base, and how to make certain it does not happen again are addressed. Typically after the meeting is when we'd get a flow down.

This was not a case where a singular person could solve it all in 5 minutes. To expect that is a bit un realistic. Stop comparing it to a case were they stuck onions on your burger, and you complain to the on duty manager for a new one.

Turbine reacted within a timely fashion, honestly.

You dont know me at all and here you are calling me the entitled generation. This whole banning made me and others mad so yes we want answers and you know what would have stopped most of it.Let me show you (Turbine) We are checking into this . this would have been enough for most of us. Instead we get banned from the Forums and a ton of you faboys coming in and taking up for Turbine. You do know you are a customer to right or do you really work for Turbine.

[Chai]

Dude, I answered you by showing the fallacy of your argument and you still continue on after telling you I'm done with this argument. Drop it! I'm sick of your hypocrisy and lies.

You are assuming that I will argue by your standard, which I will not. I dont need to bog everything down in technicalities and rules lawyerisms in order to state my case. Thats your methodology, not mine.

Theres no hypocrisy or lies here. Only me disagreeing with you. And you bantering with more namecalling and insults.

Now answer the question.

[Zippo]

You are assuming that I will argue by your standard, which I will not. I dont need to bog everything down in technicalities and rules lawyerisms in order to state my case. Thats your methodology, not mine.

Theres no hypocrisy or lies here. Only me disagreeing with you. And you bantering with more namecalling and insults.

Now answer the question.

Ignorant

[Tirkan]

Guys, just stop responding to Chai.

It's pointless.

[Chai]

Ignorant

More of the same namecalling. This clearly is all you have.

[Chai]

Guys, just stop responding to Chai.

It's pointless.

Yes, it is pointless to respond with nothing to banter with other than namecalling. Good advice, even if you were intending to disagree with me.

[Rumbaar]

You guys are doing Turbines dirty work. The discussion should be on their deception and lack of transparency, not little squabbles amongst yourselves.

Take it to Turbine, try not to get bogged down with he said/she said not on direct topic.

[Dulcimerist]

I ran out of popcorn. :(

[Film]

Now answer the question.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x73/doubleplusundeadmeenu/truth.jpg

You can't handle the truth...



and apparently Turbine doesn't know what it is.

[Chai]

You guys are doing Turbines dirty work. The discussion should be on their deception and lack of transparency, not little squabbles amongst yourselves.

Take it to Turbine, try not to get bogged down with he said/she said not on direct topic.

I am trying to ask this very question about what people feel is the best course of action that sends the most powerful message to Turbine, and the opposition wants to banter that opinions mean nothing unless youre a turbine employee.

I asked one question and got a few answers, along with 15 pages of namecalling and excuses as to why certain parties wont answer that question, by a few people who disagreed with me in the past and are still butthurt over that fact.

I have actually agreed with people I disagreed with in the past on this issue, as well as disagreed with people I normally agree with. To do this, I basically had to state my opinion and stand by it. Seems easy enough, but this is a much harder thing to do than namecalling for some however.

[Chai]

Dude, what part of I am done with this argument with you is so terribly hard for you to understand? But I'll try again, just in case your just slow processing


The part where you continue to quote me after stating youre done, to fling more poo but do nothing constructive. Baiting and namecalling isnt an acceptable response that will cause an actual civil discussion, if you havent figured this out already. We would have closed you out on our forums already.

[toughguyjoe]

The forums are going to be awful quiet once the infractions start racking up.

It'll be a sad day.

[Film]

The forums are going to be awful quiet once the infractions start racking up.

It'll be a sad day.

It's hard to determine written sarcasm from someone named ToughGuyJoe. Nah! I'll take it as sarcasm...the sad day part.

[floating]

Yeap everyone who disagrees with the masses is a Fanboi. Not.

This is why these issues will continue to occur. People interpret disagreement with the virtual riots as 100% complete agreement with Turbine. It all black and white right? Wrong.

To quote a quote though not necessarily to disagree i like how absolute your use of wrong is.

[floating]

More of the same namecalling. This clearly is all you have.

To quote another quote. I dont intend to troll if this is taken this way, but he offered a description in line with his opinion of your comment. Not really of you or even if it was it would be sort of a description of a temporary state anyway ...in line with opinion.

Id like to get back on topic which if i do recall this started as an apology thread coming from Tolero with explanations? In my opinion i think this thread could be useful and instructive to Turbine. It could help them to improve upon their customer service, and avoid future uproars like this not because they crushed them with authority (which truly we give them by paying for their MMOs) but because they seek to offer better service to their customers and succeed. To do this i am sure that arguing about arguing style or hitting at one another with names (whoever may have started to diverge from topic first...i wont read back to my shame because i have a fvs to level) isnt going to help whether it be Chai or one of their adversaries. I think that stating your feelings and opinions about this incident, should Turbine look through them and listen, will allow for that better customer service which is in fact needed. Lets step down the aggression and get back to the improvement side of things.

As far as im concerned what was truly wrong with this was not that ppl were banned without enough insight into the situation which caused the ban, but that there was an attempt to crush the inquiries of paying customers via thread deletion, lock, threats of further disciplinary action,.... etc etc. Dont get me wrong it was frustrating to be banned and have no knowledge of any exploit for which i may have been banned. As a person who has put considerable time effort and money into my main hobby that i deserve better treatment from Turbine. More transparency, and i like the idea of stating exploits so that those of us who do not wish to exploit unintentionally can avoid them. The virtual rioting and the hounding of turbine employees that i largely helped encourage was not simply because i was angry, but because i felt that it would help realize the weight of their decision and help right something that i viewed as an injustice to loyal DDO players. There are many players who i find to be stand up people and who I trust very well who i could not see participating in questionable activity who were in my opinion erroneously banned.

[Chai]

To quote a quote though not necessarily to disagree i like how absolute your use of wrong is.

Yeap it absolutely states there is a huge grey area in the middle of all this black and white rules lawyerist nonsense. And regardless if we all believe it or not, we are up in there, like swim wear.

[Chai]

To quote another quote. I dont intend to troll if this is taken this way, but he offered a description in line with his opinion of your comment. Not really of you or even if it was it would be sort of a description of a temporary state anyway.

Its still namecalling regardless, and doesnt contribute to the discussion of topic at hand. After quite a few responses of the same, my retort was appropriate.

Hes still attacking an ego that doesnt exist, and evading actual discussion of the topic while doing so.

[Chai]

The forums are going to be awful quiet once the infractions start racking up.

It'll be a sad day.

Yeap it will. Forthermore I doubt Turbine will allow people to justify over the line forum rants even though their screw up incited it.

[floating]

Its still namecalling regardless, and doesnt contribute to the discussion of topic at hand. After quite a few responses of the same, my retort was appropriate.

Hes still attacking an ego that doesnt exist, and evading actual discussion of the topic while doing so.

Yes it doesnt contribute to the discussion of the topic at hand, and if you read all ive written you'll find that i agree. But, i also feel that you helping to perpetuate it doesnt help. Neither does it help to have you quoting the comments of me quoting the comment you made, nor does me having to further clarify this here and now that i type. So all of those involved get back on topic please.

[Ebuddy]

Greetings, everyone!

I have read the concerns involving our method of suspending accounts for using exploits within the game, and many of you believe that we use an automated system to do so. This is not the case.

We handle several types of investigations – from harassment to gold farming issues. Exploits are handled through another process in which we conduct investigations into exploits, and those suspected of using them. We determine the behavior of the exploit (just what does someone have to do in order to accomplish it and is it possible to “accidentally” do it), what benefit they’re receiving from the exploit, and then develop a criteria with which to ferret out individuals involved. From there, we review the data and determine the appropriate response. Each step of this process is reviewed by team members, and in this case there was a step in the process that went awry, resulting in the errors, and users receiving warnings (and in the extreme cases, temporary suspensions).

As Tolero stated in her original post, it was a technical problem – once we identified what caused the issue, we were able to correct it, and we reversed all warnings and suspensions that were incorrectly implemented. We are further refining our process to prevent this sort of issue in the future. Emails have been sent to the affected accounts, and the 100 Turbine Points have been credited to affected users.

So now Turbine goes just a hair further and provides you with some detail and people STILL aren't satisified. This constant, "What I REALLY want is..." and, "This is how Turbine SHOULD handle this..." without a complete knowledge of the factors involved (including internal Turbine policies/procedures) is no better than armchair quarterbacking. You are paying (probably) for a service. If you no longer believe that the service offers you enough value for what you pay, then discontinue using it - you'll be happier in the long run.

[Chai]

So, what do people feel is the best action they can take that will result in less screw ups in the future, that also sends the most powerful message without having to sit the next few plays out?

[Memnir]

many of you believe that we use an automated system to do so. This is not the case.

---

As Tolero stated in her original post, it was a technical problem – once we identified what caused the issue, we were able to correct it, and we reversed all warnings and suspensions that were incorrectly implemented.I don't see how it can be both of these things at the same time.


I'm sorry, Jesenne - I don't believe that this is anything beyond spin-doctored damage control. There is simply no way the sheer number of erroneous bans could have occurred with it just being human error. And even a semi-automated process to ban folks, or flag them for banning, is still an automated process. And unless somebody was really asleep at the switch - I don't see how any person could have approved all those bans without questioning before hand why there were so many and investigating before hitting the ban button.


I simply don't buy this explanation for a moment.

[Chai]

I don't see how it can be both of these things at the same time.


I'm sorry, Jesenne - I don't believe that this is anything beyond spin-doctored damage control. There is simply no way the sheer number of erroneous bans could have occurred with it just being human error. And even a semi-automated process to ban folks, or flag them for banning, is still an automated process. And unless somebody was really asleep at the switch - I don't see how any person could have approved all those bans without questioning before hand why there were so many and investigating before hitting the ban button.


I simply don't buy this explanation for a moment.

Whats your theory? Was it a chain of human errors?

[Ebuddy]

So, what do people feel is the best action they can take that will result in less screw ups in the future, that also sends the most powerful message without having to sit the next few plays out?

I was lucky, I was neither banned nor warned.

Had I been affected by this situation, I would probably have been able shrug off not playing for a few days. I would have written to Turbine (not used forums) to express my displeasure. I would have been satisified with the response (and the free points) and let it be.

If at some point I believed that that I was no longer receiving value for my money, I would simply quit and be done with it.

That's just me however. I just think that indeed there is such a thing as beating a dead horse and this "thing"....this "situation" can be no more dead then it was several hours ago.

[Rumbaar]

Had I been affected by this situation, I would probably have been able shrug off not playing for a few days. I would have written to Turbine (not used forums) to express my displeasure. I would have been satisified with the response (and the free points) and let it be.You're the perfect customer. No mater how poorly you will be treated, you'll continue to feed money into the business.

You know they never respond to those support ticket inquiries? I'm sure the same person who thoroughly checks these bans is the same person who reads customer support, and gives both of them about the same level of care.

[PopeJual]

Whats your theory? Was it a chain of human errors?

I believe that his theory is that they have a semi-automated process and that someone screwed up the semi-automated process in a way that banned umpty-thousand accounts and that Jesenne's statement is incorrect (or at least misleading).

[Chai]

You're the perfect customer. No mater how poorly you will be treated, you'll continue to feed money into the business.

You know they never respond to those support ticket inquiries? I'm sure the same person who thoroughly checks these bans is the same person who reads customer support, and gives both of them about the same level of care.

IMO this perfect customer business is true regardless of how you express your displeasure or level of it, as long as you continue to pay into the system.

The point I agree with that he made is he is saying he wouldnt be all that offended. If he is not really offended, then paying into the system for entertainment is his prerogative.

Claiming to be hugely offended, then complaining up a storm, AND staying around to continue to pay into the system, is just as guilty of being that perfect customer. Some have been guilty of that since the spaz attack nerf that occurred when this game was in diapers, yet still continue to think they are affecting change with the moaning and riots, when several years of history over many such events shows otherwise.

[Ebuddy]

You're the perfect customer. No mater how poorly you will be treated, you'll continue to feed money into the business.

You know they never respond to those support ticket inquiries? I'm sure the same person who thoroughly checks these bans is the same person who reads customer support, and gives both of them about the same level of care.

I also said, "If at some point I believed that that I was no longer receiving value for my money, I would simply quit and be done with it."

Here where I live, there's a fast food chain that had great breakfast. They decided to not serve it anymore. I wrote the company (no, I don't generally do stuff like this as a matter of habit) who gave me a fair response but told me what was done was done.

I don't eat there anymore.

I'm not the "perfect" customer, I talk with my cash.

[Memnir]

Whats your theory? Was it a chain of human errors?
I believe that his theory is that they have a semi-automated process and that someone screwed up the semi-automated process in a way that banned umpty-thousand accounts and that Jesenne's statement is incorrect (or at least misleading).Jual has the gist of what I was getting at. Although, after reading your posts in this thread, Chai, I expect you to disagree as a matter of course.

Unless the person or people they have doing the bans totally by individual review is stone-stupid - there is a discrepancy here.

[NeutronStar]

Greetings, everyone!

I have read the concerns involving our method of suspending accounts for using exploits within the game, and many of you believe that we use an automated system to do so. This is not the case.

We handle several types of investigations – from harassment to gold farming issues. Exploits are handled through another process in which we conduct investigations into exploits, and those suspected of using them. We determine the behavior of the exploit (just what does someone have to do in order to accomplish it and is it possible to “accidentally” do it), what benefit they’re receiving from the exploit, and then develop a criteria with which to ferret out individuals involved. From there, we review the data and determine the appropriate response. Each step of this process is reviewed by team members, and in this case there was a step in the process that went awry, resulting in the errors, and users receiving warnings (and in the extreme cases, temporary suspensions).

As Tolero stated in her original post, it was a technical problem – once we identified what caused the issue, we were able to correct it, and we reversed all warnings and suspensions that were incorrectly implemented. We are further refining our process to prevent this sort of issue in the future. Emails have been sent to the affected accounts, and the 100 Turbine Points have been credited to affected users.

Sorry Jesenne, I don't buy it either. Not even for a second.

[Feylina]

Last night, some DDO players received erroneous temporary suspensions or warnings regarding an exploit. Due to a technical issue in our exploit suspension process some players participating in the Mabar festival event were incorrectly notified of a rules violation. Last night, some DDO players received erroneous temporary suspensions or warnings regarding an exploit. Due to a technical issue in our exploit suspension process some players participating in the Mabar festival event were incorrectly notified of a rules violation.

-Ya think? pretty sure we were telling you this from the get go last night, yet your precious little forum rules prevented the actual discusion of the situation seriously hampering any sort of quality response from turbine.


Any accounts that were temporarily banned as a result of this issue will have their account access restored and will be credited 100 Turbine Points. Any accounts that received warnings will have those warnings removed from their record.

-I'll buy that for a dollar! Sweet now i an get a... um... nothing comes to mind. 100 turbine points? really!!?? jesus why bother it's almost insulting. You don't want to know what i've had serious money making companies with quality customer service do for me when they've messed up this royally.


This error was an isolated incident and should have no further impact for any DDO players. As always, we welcome player feedback on all aspects of DDO and continually seek to improve the quality of the service we provide to players.

We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience or confusion and thank you for your patience while we worked to resolve the issue.

-[Censored] As long as those discussions aren't about exploits, bans, turbines policies and actions including those of their staff.


just kinda meh about it. turbine made a mess of things, acted in such a ludicrous fashion i can't help just chuckle when i think of it. it's so bad it's funny.

thing is though i will keep on playing. for my reasons. TBH the only reason i'm sticking around is my friends and guildies, the quality of the game coupled with it's staff and policies is certainly nothing that would garner any long time loyalty here.

the word of the day is "Laughable"

as to the other response from turbine that numerous people have quoted, i'm with the person that asked the question "if it is not automated, how did so many bans make it past so many people without them raising a question" (not directly quoted)

*insert picture of 1k monkeys and 1k typewriters*

[Chai]

Jual has the gist of what I was getting at. Although, after reading your posts in this thread, Chai, I expect you to disagree as a matter of course.

Unless the person or people they have doing the bans totally by individual review is stone-stupid - there is a discrepancy here.

My theory is that it is a combination of the two. Computers dont do random things like hand out high quantities of unintentional bans that are not of the same length of time. There had to be human error involved, and likely the human fed the system with the wrong information, pushed the "go" button, and the system then did what it is supposed to according to that (mis)information. It notified those it was (wrongly) told to notify of their vacation and duration using batches of emails. Much larger corporations than Turbine use this type of system, and it only takes one human to (mis)feed it.

I dont auto agree or auto disagree with people. Its usually the other way around. People who disagreed with me in the past and still cant sit down due to the pain show up with the auto disagreement, sans on topic ammo to banter with, and the hilarity ensues. The irony is that many of them actually agree with me, even when trying to strongly disagree.

I also dont banter the worse possible case scenario to gain attention points, which I have seen alot of regarding this issue in the past few days now. "Its not 1% of the total current players, its 1% of the entire planets population, including mammals, sea creatures, reptillians, microbes, fungi, and bacteria., and thats alot of players." Yes I am being sarcastic and exagerating, but you get the point. By 7am CST there were already rediculous threads threatening legal class action, before anyone knew which direction was up, and had their first coffee. Thats a rap on the rest of the day to get that emotionally charged before work, heh.

[Chai]

I'm not the "perfect" customer, I talk with my cash.

In my opinion, that IS the perfect customer. Many times talking with your cash, or what I call voting with my wallet, is the one sure fire way to send the message that needs to be sent. Nobody ever won an arguement with a paying customer.

[joneb1999]

This has hurt Turbine and the games rep. No doubt about it. Just because people dont jump after complaining doesnt mean they dont put a black mark against the game when considering other reasons to jump ship or pay to play another game by another company instead.

There is no excuse at all when the problem arose that a message coldnt have been put into the game client and on the forums just to say not to worry and the issue will be looked into.

[toughguyjoe]

Yeap it will. Forthermore I doubt Turbine will allow people to justify over the line forum rants even though their screw up incited it.

Sorry for the long Delays but this thread is so disgusting to me it might as well be vegemite. :/

My question is will turbine ever poke back at the people who instigate these over the top rants to turn into full blown arguements...

Here's lookin at you Chai.

[Zippo]

More of the same namecalling. This clearly is all you have.

More of the same ignorance is this all you have?

[Grecan]

Ummm... is this thread about answering Chai's questions?

And what was the question, anyway?

:confused:

[Zippo]

I am trying to ask this very question about what people feel is the best course of action that sends the most powerful message to Turbine, and the opposition wants to banter that opinions mean nothing unless youre a turbine employee.

I asked one question and got a few answers, along with 15 pages of namecalling and excuses as to why certain parties wont answer that question, by a few people who disagreed with me in the past and are still butthurt over that fact.

I have actually agreed with people I disagreed with in the past on this issue, as well as disagreed with people I normally agree with. To do this, I basically had to state my opinion and stand by it. Seems easy enough, but this is a much harder thing to do than namecalling for some however.

Lets not be disengenious. Let's give him the quotes.

Film had challenged him to account for his "facts"


It is not a fact it is an opinion. It is your opinion. Can you confirm by fact that the complaining/reporting today did not speed up the reply. Can you confirm by fact that the response provided was not based off of bad publicity to gaming sites. Can you confirm that if nothing was said, and crickets rejoiced in song, that those affected would have been rectified so quickly.

Unless you are a Turbine employee you can not confirm these questions without violating company privacy agreements. So either you are an employee in violation, someone leaked info to you which puts them in violation, or you are stating an opinion based off of information provided as others have.



To which Chai's response consisted of baiting Film into an illogical circular argument as seen here:


Is there a problem officer? Wait wait wait...did you just say meow.

If being a forum cop is all you have to banter with, I suggest not hitting the panic button, and approaching the situation logically next time, k? I am not violating rules here.

At which time I agreed with Film's assertions:


He simply pointed out how your opinion of what happened, that you consistently try to pass of as fact, has no bearing in merit unless you are an employee of Turbine and breaking what would logically be part of a non-disclosure agreement or are party to someone who is breaking said agreement.


Then came the question.


Stick to the facts, and tell me how all the NerdRage® without people leaving actually helped this issue, and actually contributes to these issues not happening in the future.

Now Chai expects me to answer a question based on opinion as fact, and when I told him for what must be at least the 8th time that I can not answer that question based on HIS parameters set on the question and to do so would be doing the very thing that I called him out for, he has continued on like a raving loon. Now he wants to pass himself off as the innocent party that is just being picked on, maybe it's time for him to grow up and stop the games and accept that his opinions aren't facts and don't try to entrap people into stupid circular logic arguments, especially when they are smarter then he is.

[Grecan]

I see...

Too much to be said, and i'm lazy...

I'll try to say some things that hopefully make sense though...

First of all, i think i could safely say it's a fact that Turbine messed up, cause, after all, they admitted it and apologised for the mess.

Secondly, in my opinion, all the players should be united against such occurences, cause they could happen to anyone, and a unified stance is stronger i believe. (The opposite would be "Divide and conquer")

Thirdly, in most cases it's true that 'actions speak louder than words', but i don't think this means you shouldn't call out something wrong when you see it.

Everyone who plays DDO does so because s/he enjoys it, and it's not easy to quit something you enjoy!
Stopping to play a game you enjoy because you were mad for not being able to play it for -let's say- a day doesn't seem very logical to me...
But stopping to pay someone who causes you more distress than enjoyment certainly does.
I would also like to remind everybody that DDO is no longer a subscription-only game, whatever this might tell you...
Anyway, if i cause someone to be angry with me, i would expect him first to warn me (with words), and later take actions against me, if i don't change my ways. Immediate actions are needed... well, only when they're needed :D (mostly in extreme situations)
A combination of words and actions is probably what shows someone's feelings better, but the mixture/timing can vary significantly, depeding on the situation and persons involved.
Over-reacting is not really needed (that's why it has the prefix over, cause it's more than necessary), but it usually takes the point across better... Funny, huh?

That's all i had to say for now, i hope it was a positive contribution :)

If wasn't very coherent, sorry, but i'm a bit sleepy.

One last thing:

What happened made a lot of people angry... So please DDO stuff, try not to let such things happen again. They aren't good neither for the company, nor for the employees, nor for the players, and you know it ;)

[NeutronStar]

I know of someone serving in Iraq who hasn't logged into DDO since August nor had internet access for anything but email access also got the ban letter.

Please tell me exactly HOW a GM determined that player was cheating during the Mabar event.

[Jacoby]

Here are my thoughts on the subject. Turbine screwed the pooch as the most often do in these situations because they failed to repond in any way. This has been a trend with them since day one and is likely not to change so get over it.. I do beleive Tolero is doing what she can and all that she can with the situation. This is now a mute point now.

I have often chided Turbine for similar reasons but it's ultimately their company and their game. I do think it would be easier to say hey folks, there is a problem and we are looking into it but then I'm not on the inside and likely don't have all the information. Again, it's a mute point. Move along people, there's nothing more to see here...

[Chai]

Sorry for the long Delays but this thread is so disgusting to me it might as well be vegemite. :/

My question is will turbine ever poke back at the people who instigate these over the top rants to turn into full blown arguements...

Here's lookin at you Chai.

Hardly. Nice try though.

There were all kinds of over the top moaning rants about class action suits, finding out where people lived, and such on the boards long before I woke up that morning. No sir, the pitchforks were already sold out and the riot in full effect before I made comment #1. My comments no more instigate than the people I am responding to or those who respond to me.

[Chai]

Here are my thoughts on the subject. Turbine screwed the pooch as the most often do in these situations because they failed to repond in any way. This has been a trend with them since day one and is likely not to change so get over it.. I do beleive Tolero is doing what she can and all that she can with the situation. This is now a mute point now.

Failed to respond for like 6 hours....

Turbine HAS been doing this in a trendy fashion, because of two reasons.

1. Peoples actions allow them to continue to - through never enacting changing action that actually sends a message, we might as well be asking for more of the same.

2. The forumites have the well rehearsed rioting response down, due to the fact that many of the same people participated in quite a few of these less than fruitful demonstrations of lack of content inthe past, and nothing really changes due to them. The response time to this was swift and direct, but to no avail, because the right action that would send a hard message was not taken.



I have often chided Turbine for similar reasons but it's ultimately their company and their game. I do think it would be easier to say hey folks, there is a problem and we are looking into it but then I'm not on the inside and likely don't have all the information. Again, it's a mute point. Move along people, there's nothing more to see here...

I havent really been dissatisfied where I threatened to leave repeatedly, then stayed, to rinse and repeat again and again each time this happens, then scream that nothing gets done about the cycle that will not be broken.

So I ask the same question. What do you feel is the best action customers can take that actually sends the message that a change needs to be affected in how these things are managed and implemented? I know the forum riots aint it, as demonstrated clearly many times before in the past.

[Vyctor]

I know of someone serving in Iraq who hasn't logged into DDO since August nor had internet access for anything but email access also got the ban letter.

Please tell me exactly HOW a GM determined that player was cheating during the Mabar event.

I would love to hear the human thought process on this as well...though I suspect no answer will be forthcoming...

[Chai]

Lets not be disengenious. Let's give him the quotes.

Film had challenged him to account for his "facts"

Sorry, I am not a member of the screenshot or it didnt happen club. You want to discuss the issue, then discuss the issue. Or go clean your room.




To which Chai's response consisted of baiting Film into an illogical circular argument as seen here:

He made his own trap by already making 2 statements previously that cornered his position, so that he couldnt answer one question without waffling at least once if not twice.

There was no baiting on my part. If it was so illogical, then why not just answer the question? Alot of other people did. From your corner I got 15 pages of excuses.


At which time I agreed with Film's assertions:

You auto agreed with the person who isnt Chai, due to being butthurt over disagreements in the past with Chai, and even agreed with me a few times while attempting to strongly do just the opposite. I grin each time this happens.


Then came the question.

No the question came first. The 15 pages of moaning and excuses came afterward, along with all kinds of namecalling.



Now Chai expects me to answer a question based on opinion as fact, and when I told him for what must be at least the 8th time that I can not answer that question based on HIS parameters set on the question and to do so would be doing the very thing that I called him out for, he has continued on like a raving loon. Now he wants to pass himself off as the innocent party that is just being picked on, maybe it's time for him to grow up and stop the games and accept that his opinions aren't facts and don't try to entrap people into stupid circular logic arguments, especially when they are smarter then he is.

No, you set your own parameters for your own arguementation. Theres no possible way I can do that for you. You boxed yourself in long before I even arrived. All I did was ask the question after you tried to jump all over my stance with nothing but namecalling to back it up with, and you fell into the hole you dug for yourself. There was really no effort on my part other than backreading once, seeing how well you boxed yourself in by drawing distinct lines, then asking one question which incited 15 pages of waffling on your part. If you are going to waffle this hard, bring some maple syrup next time. Otherwise, stop with the namecalling and stick to the conversation - any further incidents of namecalling will simply be reported from here on in.

I also noticed that when we all got back on topic, you stopped posting. This clearly shows that you are only here for the baiting and popcorn, and dont intend to post anything that advances the discussion whatsoever. Goad reporting died off in 2007 when everyone was on to it. Give it a rest.

[PopeJual]

Sorry, I am not a member of the screenshot or it didnt happen club. You want to discuss the issue, then discuss the issue. Or go clean your room.


Could you please go back a few posts to see what the actual issue is and remind the viewing audience?

Your arguments have become sufficiently bizarre and confusing that I don't think anyone remembers what the actual issue even is anymore. At this point, it's just a few people whining about each other's inability to argue correctly.

[Hellspectre]

I'm not sure if anyone has talked about what i want to say (32 pages are alot to search through) but i find it insulting that people wrongly banned for a day get compensated while those of us with premium accounts that in the past either during updates or maintenence have been rolled back to free, limiting our access to characters, content and whatnot only got " we are aware of the situation and are currently working to fix it . Thanks for your understanding." we were not compensated by Turbine. Is it fair to assume that a person banned for a day was more inconvenienced than those of us who were limited for 6-7 days the last time it happened. yes we were able to play, but 6-7 days without access to the Shroud, DQ ect is like the end of the world for some. Anyways thats all I wanted to say.

[stainer]

I know of someone serving in Iraq who hasn't logged into DDO since August nor had internet access for anything but email access also got the ban letter.

Please tell me exactly HOW a GM determined that player was cheating during the Mabar event.

I would like to have this answered also.

[stainer]

I'm not sure if anyone has talked about what i want to say (32 pages are alot to search through) but i find it insulting that people wrongly banned for a day get compensated while those of us with premium accounts that in the past either during updates or maintenence have been rolled back to free, limiting our access to characters, content and whatnot only got " we are aware of the situation and are currently working to fix it . Thanks for your understanding." we were not compensated by Turbine. Is it fair to assume that a person banned for a day was more inconvenienced than those of us who were limited for 6-7 days the last time it happened. yes we were able to play, but 6-7 days without access to the Shroud, DQ ect is like the end of the world for some. Anyways thats all I wanted to say.

You need an online MMO magazine to take up your cause.

1 Get Hosed
2 Publicity
3 ???
4 Profit

[Missing_Minds]

I'm not sure if anyone has talked about what i want to say (32 pages are alot to search through) but i find it insulting that people wrongly banned for a day get compensated while those of us with premium accounts that in the past either during updates or maintenence have been rolled back to free, limiting our access to characters, content and whatnot only got " we are aware of the situation and are currently working to fix it .

Wow... long sentence.

As for why... were you wrongly accused of cheating, esp in a backhanded 'generic' email, with next to no method of defending against the accusation?

[Chai]

Could you please go back a few posts to see what the actual issue is and remind the viewing audience?

Your arguments have become sufficiently bizarre and confusing that I don't think anyone remembers what the actual issue even is anymore. At this point, it's just a few people whining about each other's inability to argue correctly.

The issue is the topic at hand. Everything else is just a tangent away from that topic as an excuse to continue to attack specific people while not participating in the actual discussion about the actual topic with any information whatsoever, facts, opinions, or otherwise.

Ive been saying this for quite a while now.

The fact that you dont want to read back on it before making a response shows me the one sidedness of your question. Oh snap, Chai made another post, quote it and disagree with it, quick.

[Chai]

Wow... long sentence.

As for why... were you wrongly accused of cheating, esp in a backhanded 'generic' email, with next to no method of defending against the accusation?

No they were accused of not paying, and had features they rightfully paid for revoked for much longer periods of time than it took for this issue to occur and for it to be addressed. The person you quoted makes a valid point.

Again I ask the same question. What is the best action you can take on this that will send the right message with the correct amount of impact that will affect the change you want to see, without the method of sending that message resulting in further negative reinforcement?

Has anyone tried actionable feedback onthis one, or is there another riot around the corner? If so what have you done?

[Chai]

I know of someone serving in Iraq who hasn't logged into DDO since August nor had internet access for anything but email access also got the ban letter.

Please tell me exactly HOW a GM determined that player was cheating during the Mabar event.

Thats a good question. Has this person received their answer to that yet?

[stainer]

Thats a good question. Has this person received their answer to that yet?

No because you keep filling the thread with unrelated content.

[dragonlo]

this goes out to the little annoying folks that had threads up calling all of us that got the ban cheaters. /finger

[Wrendd]

this goes out to the little annoying folks that had threads up calling all of us that got the ban cheaters. /finger

+1


People should be a *little* less aggressive in calling people cheaters after something like this happens. While it may be true that most of the time the people banned are guilty of something, this just goes to show you that it is NOT always the case.

And that really sucks about the person in Iraq that got his account banned. The sandbox is a pretty crappy place to be already, getting hit with the "ban by proxy" stick is just a little rude. As if the big voice on the loud speakers saying "INCOMING INCOMING INCOMING" on average of once a day for the last 3 days is not bad enough. Of course it was kinda fun last night--- big boom, lots of tracers flying around, lots of small arms.. then as soon as you here the jet spin up the engines..... suspiciously quiet. Good times :) Being able to blow of some steam on DDO is a decent thing to do when not on shift. (Assuming that Sniper Hill is working, which is a ****-shoot).

[Memnir]

I know of someone serving in Iraq who hasn't logged into DDO since August nor had internet access for anything but email access also got the ban letter.

Please tell me exactly HOW a GM determined that player was cheating during the Mabar event.This and a few other examples I've heard of is why I think we're being fed nothing but steamy hot corporate spin. It's one thing to screw up. But don't compound it by being so transparently false in the attempt to cover-up and smooth-over the screw up.


Do I think we deserve a more comprehensive answer to what happened: yes.
Do I think for one moment Turbine will say more then the have: no.

Maybe if a gaming press site would dig a bit deeper we'd get some answers. Bad press seems to be the only thing that spurs Turbine into listening to their players and talking to us about why we're upset - instead of just silently locking/moving/deleting threads. But, that's likely not gonna happen, either. Can't put the U8 Exclusive at risk...

[Chai]

This and a few other examples I've heard of is why I think we're being fed nothing but steamy hot corporate spin. It's one thing to screw up. But don't compound it by being so transparently false in the attempt to cover-up and smooth-over the screw up.


Do I think we deserve a more comprehensive answer to what happened: yes.
Do I think for one moment Turbine will say more then the have: no.

Maybe if a gaming press site would dig a bit deeper we'd get some answers. Bad press seems to be the only thing that spurs Turbine into listening to their players and talking to us about why we're upset - instead of just silently locking/moving/deleting threads. But, that's likely not gonna happen, either. Can't put the U8 Exclusive at risk...

So what do WE do about it? 4+ years of peeing and moaning on the forums obviously hasnt worked. The customers still receive the same treatment each time a new issue comes around.

Again I ask the same question. What is the best action you can take on this that will send the right message with the correct amount of impact that will affect the change you want to see, without the method of sending that message resulting in further negative reinforcement?

[Memnir]

In the past 24 hours, I've taken a few steps - none of which I am going to discuss on the open forums because I do fear further negative reinforcement. But, the time had come for me to try something. Mostly because I don't think any action or words on our part will have any impact what so ever on the powers that be at Turbine. The lion's share of this bloody-awful mess has nothing to do with Tolero, Jesenne, Tarrant, or any of the other Mods/Devs we see on the forums. They are given their marching orders, and they march. The issue is beyond them, so I've tried my best to take the issue beyond what I myself can accomplish on my own.

Will it work? No idea. But, I've tried - mostly because I'm sick of it.

[Zippo]

Sorry, I am not a member of the screenshot or it didnt happen club. You want to discuss the issue, then discuss the issue. Or go clean your room.





He made his own trap by already making 2 statements previously that cornered his position, so that he couldnt answer one question without waffling at least once if not twice.

There was no baiting on my part. If it was so illogical, then why not just answer the question? Alot of other people did. From your corner I got 15 pages of excuses.



You auto agreed with the person who isnt Chai, due to being butthurt over disagreements in the past with Chai, and even agreed with me a few times while attempting to strongly do just the opposite. I grin each time this happens.



No the question came first. The 15 pages of moaning and excuses came afterward, along with all kinds of namecalling.




No, you set your own parameters for your own arguementation. Theres no possible way I can do that for you. You boxed yourself in long before I even arrived. All I did was ask the question after you tried to jump all over my stance with nothing but namecalling to back it up with, and you fell into the hole you dug for yourself. There was really no effort on my part other than backreading once, seeing how well you boxed yourself in by drawing distinct lines, then asking one question which incited 15 pages of waffling on your part. If you are going to waffle this hard, bring some maple syrup next time. Otherwise, stop with the namecalling and stick to the conversation - any further incidents of namecalling will simply be reported from here on in.

I also noticed that when we all got back on topic, you stopped posting. This clearly shows that you are only here for the baiting and popcorn, and dont intend to post anything that advances the discussion whatsoever. Goad reporting died off in 2007 when everyone was on to it. Give it a rest.

No waffling here, I've been pretty god damned clear that I was not going to try and pose my opinion off as fact, like you have consistently done in this thread. You posed your question in a manner that can not be answered, I can not answer it as fact using an opinion as it would have to be answered with, yet continue to make this wild accusation of being the winnerz of the interwebz because I won't stoop to your child brained level trying to pass opinion off as fact

[Cyr]

However, there's simply no way that, last night, Tolero knew that. And even if she did, people were actively speculating on what exploits it might be, which included things that actually were (and actually were not) mabar event exploits. They simply cannot permit those kind of discussions.

Why in the world would it matter if everyone who ever played DDO knew about an exploit that you could not use because the event was not even active anymore?

[Chai]

No waffling here, I've been pretty god damned clear that I was not going to try and pose my opinion off as fact, like you have consistently done in this thread. You posed your question in a manner that can not be answered, I can not answer it as fact using an opinion as it would have to be answered with, yet continue to make this wild accusation of being the winnerz of the interwebz because I won't stoop to your child brained level trying to pass opinion off as fact

I posed my question in the same manner quite a few times now, and that has been answered by many different people in quite a few threads. You wont answer it due to boxing yourself in by attempting to call me out with absolute rules lawyerisms that you feel you cannot go outside the lines of. I have had quite a few productive answers to the exact same question that I copied and pasted into different discussions, and I still believe it to be a legit question. You are the only one waffling on the issue, choosing to banter with pages of namecalling and excuses rather than answering an easy question.

I am passing my opinions off as opinion, the fact is that 20+ years of CS experience in the software industry speaks for itself.

More maple syrup. Back up the truck.

[Chai]

Why in the world would it matter if everyone who ever played DDO knew about an exploit that you could not use because the event was not even active anymore?

The first rule of fight club is dont talk about fight club.

Substitute "fight" with "exploit"

Its in the rules that they dont want people discussing those issues on open forums.

[tihocan]

Indeed! Emails are being sent directly to those players, should be arriving very soon. In some cases some folks may find that their account is reactivated even though they didn't yet get the email.
Still haven't got any email (although my account was re-activated pretty soon). I checked my spam box as well. Now the question is... how do I know if I got 100 points? :rolleyes:

[Missing_Minds]

Still haven't got any email (although my account was re-activated pretty soon). I checked my spam box as well. Now the question is... how do I know if I got 100 points? :rolleyes:

With no DDO store "account tracker" of what was spent/recieved, it is difficult to keep track because it is very impractical anymore for the user to keep up to date themself.

Lotro at least keeps track for you of what you have spent TP on.

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. No email, but reactivated account.

[Cyr]

The first rule of fight club is dont talk about fight club.

Substitute "fight" with "exploit"

Its in the rules that they dont want people discussing those issues on open forums.

I asked why it would matter and not what the possible letter of the forum rules were. As it is not uncommon at all to see posts list exploits that you can not do anymore they clearly either have some leadway in enforcing this supposed rule or it is not really a rule in the first place.

[joneb1999]

So what do WE do about it? 4+ years of peeing and moaning on the forums obviously hasnt worked. The customers still receive the same treatment each time a new issue comes around.

Again I ask the same question. What is the best action you can take on this that will send the right message with the correct amount of impact that will affect the change you want to see, without the method of sending that message resulting in further negative reinforcement?

Im thinking you may be wrong. Why did Turbine go ftp last year, was it because their game was so popular like WoW or maybe they had to find another way to keep the boat afloat. Then I remember the complaints about commercial Turbine Points rewards system got that shelved. Alot of what is keeping the boat afloat now is simply the ftp which brought and is still bringing in new interested players. That magic will end soon. Turbine need to be careful with who pays their wages.

Where exactly does DDO stand in the MMO market now and where will it stand when Rifts, Tera, GW2, NWN and SWTOR come out? Thats what Im thinking. Not everyone will pay for more than one game. You may say NWN isnt a really persistant mmo but change, in this case a different game model, can be what people want.

[NeutronStar]

Thats a good question. Has this person received their answer to that yet?

I don't know if he contacted Turbine about the letter or not. What I do know is that he has since gotten the unbanning letter. Of course, there were no real explanations of how Turbine screwed up in his case included in the letter.

[Chai]

I asked why it would matter and not what the possible letter of the forum rules were. As it is not uncommon at all to see posts list exploits that you can not do anymore they clearly either have some leadway in enforcing this supposed rule or it is not really a rule in the first place.

I can only guess about the "why" - but it has to do with the rule they wrote in the first place that they dont want it being done. Allowing those types of things to be discussed on the forums may cause more people to participate in that type of activity.

Yes I do believe that every single occurrence cant be enforced, and that it is taken on a case by case basis.

I think its ironic that most people think Turbine is such a tyrant here, because in most MMO forums they dont even allow questioning the rules or any anti-company banter whatsoever. I am not saying I agree with that, but simply that it is the case. In the earlier EQ1 days, any anti Verant trolling was deleted without explanation, even if they screwed up bigtime. If people made a thread to replace the old one they got a vacation. I believe that we could head down this road if we create a huge stink within hours of an incident occurring every single time. If Turbine has to evaluate their rules, I favor action that will cause them to change the implementation to favor us, instead of changing them to cause MORE negative reinforcement due to too much borderline conduct. If they do make that change for good or ill, the only option you will have that makes any impact at all would be to leave, which is the same option we already do have.

[Cyr]

Greetings, everyone!

I have read the concerns involving our method of suspending accounts for using exploits within the game, and many of you believe that we use an automated system to do so. This is not the case.

We handle several types of investigations – from harassment to gold farming issues. Exploits are handled through another process in which we conduct investigations into exploits, and those suspected of using them. We determine the behavior of the exploit (just what does someone have to do in order to accomplish it and is it possible to “accidentally” do it), what benefit they’re receiving from the exploit, and then develop a criteria with which to ferret out individuals involved. From there, we review the data and determine the appropriate response. Each step of this process is reviewed by team members, and in this case there was a step in the process that went awry, resulting in the errors, and users receiving warnings (and in the extreme cases, temporary suspensions).

As Tolero stated in her original post, it was a technical problem – once we identified what caused the issue, we were able to correct it, and we reversed all warnings and suspensions that were incorrectly implemented. We are further refining our process to prevent this sort of issue in the future. Emails have been sent to the affected accounts, and the 100 Turbine Points have been credited to affected users.

So what your saying is that someone wrote a script to comb through some logs to determine who was using an exploit and could determine intent from data files all despite the fact that Turbine in the past has refused to confirm that there are any logs in DDO.

Also apparently someone writing a script to gather information and then sending out bans/warnings to everyone involved (also presumably through a script unless you want us to believe that someone was manually confirming every ban when people were DC'ing in rapid succession due to this) is not an automated process.

I am trying to figure out where the human part of these investigations actually came in. Someone wrote a data combing script and hit go. Someone wrote a mass banning script and hit go. Presumably someone glanced (and clearly no more then that based upon what occurred here) at the results before hitting go. That is not an investigation. Automatic scripts can not determine intent or that the person doing it knows it is an exploit. Turbine then insured that even those receiving warnings/bans for said presumed exploit would not automatically know what they did was an exploit by not giving a clear description of what they had exploited. If you want to use automatic scripts it is really easy to do so in a RESPONSIBLE manner. Have peer review of data combing/banning scripts and testing before implementation. As part of ANY BANNING SCRIPT you must first have one logged case of a warning being issued for that specific issue that listed the exploit clearly so there is no confusion. Simply put, first 'exploit' occurrence logged sends out a warning about the exploit to the player in question (in email and INGAME form) with the exploit listed clear as day (including time done, details of it, and character/server done on). Then if they are caught doing the script after a sufficient time has passed to guarantee that they have received the original warning by all means throw them a ban with clear documentation to back it up.

That way someone has fair warning, knowledge of what they need to avoid in the future, and if there is some mistake on Turbine's part they can contact them and ask for further investigation. For example, in this case no one would have been banned. Thousands of people would have sent responses saying something is wrong at once. Turbine would have known instantly that they messed up somehow and NO ONE would have been banned incorrectly for any amount of time.

I have had numerous times when certain things have been labeled exploits by Turbine that I thought were working as intended and actually had to hear from people I trusted that they had contacted someone in the know that it was to actually believe it myself (or contacting them myself after hearing rumors something was). Why does this matter? Well because frankly I hear from players on a weekly basis that something in game is supposedly an exploit when the vast majority are not and playing by what everyone who claims something is an exploit is would make most end game play frankly impossible.

[Chai]

Im thinking you may be wrong. Why did Turbine go ftp last year, was it because their game was so popular like WoW or maybe they had to find another way to keep the boat afloat. Then I remember the complaints about commercial Turbine Points rewards system got that shelved. Alot of what is keeping the boat afloat now is simply the ftp which brought and is still bringing in new interested players. That magic will end soon. Turbine need to be careful with who pays their wages.

Ive seen this arguement stance played out many times in the past with the same result. This is certainly not the first time many people were up in arms and threatening to leave, and if they stay, it wont be the first time that happened either.

I am going on pure past experience here, but one of the issues many players said in the past would KILL the game was F2P, which we clearly now understand keeps it afloat. I dont think that magic will end soon. More and more new players log in daily, who are oblivious to the 4 years of moaning about issues in the past. Sure, alot of the old hat player base may leave, but the numbers game right now is not in favor of older players, but in pleasing newer players. If people join, pay a years worth of sub fees to buy a bunch of content then leave after 7 months, thats a 5 month net gain on that customer. If that customer stays around and guzzles mana pots and buys TRs and LRs, its even better.


Where exactly does DDO stand in the MMO market now and where will it stand when Rifts, Tera, GW2, NWN and SWTOR come out? Thats what Im thinking. Not everyone will pay for more than one game. You may say NWN isnt a really persistant mmo but change, in this case a different game model, can be what people want.

I have seen this one played out as well. History has shown us otherwise. Many new games get released, and alot of threads have appeared over the years about how DDO is going to sink when this or that new MMO comes out. Not once has it happened. I see alot of promising new games on the horizon, but I dont see a mass exodus of players due to those games.

I understand people want to paint this bleak picture due to not being happy with the company right now, but we have seen it all in the past, and DDO still survives.

[Chai]

I don't know if he contacted Turbine about the letter or not. What I do know is that he has since gotten the unbanning letter. Of course, there were no real explanations of how Turbine screwed up in his case included in the letter.

I think whenever this person has the time to make their case, they have a very strong case to make, having not logged in since August, and a **** good way to prove it.

[boricua_in_cali]

how About Those Of Us Who Weren't Banned, But Had No One To Group With Last Night Due To Everyone Getting Banned? Do We Get 100 Points Too?

+1

[Zippo]

I posed my question in the same manner quite a few times now, and that has been answered by many different people in quite a few threads. You wont answer it due to boxing yourself in by attempting to call me out with absolute rules lawyerisms that you feel you cannot go outside the lines of. I have had quite a few productive answers to the exact same question that I copied and pasted into different discussions, and I still believe it to be a legit question. You are the only one waffling on the issue, choosing to banter with pages of namecalling and excuses rather than answering an easy question.

I am passing my opinions off as opinion, the fact is that 20+ years of CS experience in the software industry speaks for itself.

More maple syrup. Back up the truck.
No one is waffling, especially not me, I haven't answered your question as I have said about 10 times already, you posed the question as wanting facts on an opinion based question. There is NO way to answer your question as facts; as well I will not engage in the same activity that you did by trying to state my opinion as fact, you not understanding that is your own issue. No instead you want try and push YOUR lack of understanding of the scope on to me to make yourself feel better for presumably your inadequacies.

Ain't no waffling here, as any sane person can see I have been very steady about my thoughts on your poor poor logic circles and strawman attempts.

[Chai]

No one is waffling, especially not me, I haven't answered your question as I have said about 10 times already, you posed the question as wanting facts on an opinion based question. There is NO way to answer your question as facts; as well I will not engage in the same activity that you did by trying to state my opinion as fact, you not understanding that is your own issue. No instead you want try and push YOUR lack of understanding of the scope on to me to make yourself feel better for presumably your inadequacies.

Ain't no waffling here, as any sane person can see I have been very steady about my thoughts on your poor poor logic circles and strawman attempts.

Oh god, book 3.

Either answer the two day old question or dont. I could care less about 15 pages worth of self justification, excuses, name calling, and rules lawyering.

Every single one of your responses is a lame personal attack of some sort coupled with more denial, but does nothing to advance the on topic discussion whatsoever. I could write a script that spits these responses to your banter out with all the same parameters present at this point.

Now come back with some maple syrup for these waffles, or your fate is sealed.

http://meatwad.50webs.com/Meatwad2.jpg

[Inkblack]

Still haven't got any email (although my account was re-activated pretty soon). I checked my spam box as well. Now the question is... how do I know if I got 100 points? :rolleyes:

Just check your monthly account balance.

Oh, wait... :rolleyes:

[joneb1999]

I understand people want to paint this bleak picture due to not being happy with the company right now, but we have seen it all in the past, and DDO still survives.

Lol four years is nothing. You make it sound like it was 14 years. It will survive but in what state. Guild Wars is still going after 6 years and it doesnt even do much anything new now. Then ofcourse there are many much longer running mmos out there.

Its not about whether it survives its about doing mediocre business or big business and whether a large active community or a dwindling one. Thats up to Turbine and partly about how they treat their community as customer service is part of what we pay for as vips anyway.

[Zippo]

[wall of self bloviating ****]

Dude, I'm done with your ignorance, you are obviously to obtuse to understand a simple concept that an opinion can not be cited as fact. Your non-acceptance of said fact has led you into this self deprecating spiral of loonacy where you continually and purposefully elevate this level of ignorance in hopes of a proverbial sympathy **** from fellow forumites willing to placate this image of the "bullied" kid you have so desperately tried to create. With that, I'm done with you! Goodbye, good riddance, go to hell for all I care.

[chrisgina39]

100 TP and a lame post? I wasn't even banned and I find that offensive...

You guys screwed up big time and tried to cover it up. You don't get to walk away unharmed just by giving out 100TP...

il take the 100 tp(unless you could get more with bthat

[Postumus]

I could buy that argument if it wasn't for people and accounts also being noted of not participating in the event....This beyond a bad script.


No it isn't. Unless you have an intimate knowledge of Turbine's database architecture and reporting tools you can't make that statement with any degree of certainty.


To paraphrase Loyd Bentsen "I seen bad script, I've written bad script, bad script was a friend of mine. Zippo, you don't know bad script."

[PopeJual]

No it isn't. Unless you have an intimate knowledge of Turbine's database architecture and reporting tools you can't make that statement with any degree of certainty.


To paraphrase Loyd Bentsen "I seen bad script, I've written bad script, bad script was a friend of mine. Zippo, you don't know bad script."

If their database architecture and reporting tools are so bad that a report designed to find Mabar exploiters catches a guy who hasn't logged in for several months, then they have a bad everything.

Besides, we all know that Turbine has more than bad scripts. They have lots of bad things to fix. I'd say that management is the first that needs the attention.

[Zippo]

No it isn't. Unless you have an intimate knowledge of Turbine's database architecture and reporting tools you can't make that statement with any degree of certainty.


To paraphrase Loyd Bentsen "I seen bad script, I've written bad script, bad script was a friend of mine. Zippo, you don't know bad script."

I'm sorry, but what I posted was



I could buy that argument if it wasn't for people and accounts also being noted of not participating in the event. The most outrageous of which includes someone who is currently deployed overseas in the military who has not logged into the game for several months, obviously due to a lack of a gaming machine, who was also sent a consequent e-mail that detailed their extensive investigation into his bannable exploits during the Mabar event. This beyond a bad script.

If scripting was used to trace certain activities during the Mabar event to determine exploitative behaviour, that is a prime example of bad script in my opinion. And if this wasn't just an automated response but used in conjuncture with an actual live person as Jesenne implied:


Greetings, everyone!

I have read the concerns involving our method of suspending accounts for using exploits within the game, and many of you believe that we use an automated system to do so. This is not the case.

We handle several types of investigations – from harassment to gold farming issues. Exploits are handled through another process in which we conduct investigations into exploits, and those suspected of using them. We determine the behavior of the exploit (just what does someone have to do in order to accomplish it and is it possible to “accidentally” do it), what benefit they’re receiving from the exploit, and then develop a criteria with which to ferret out individuals involved. From there, we review the data and determine the appropriate response. Each step of this process is reviewed by team members, and in this case there was a step in the process that went awry, resulting in the errors, and users receiving warnings (and in the extreme cases, temporary suspensions).

As Tolero stated in her original post, it was a technical problem – once we identified what caused the issue, we were able to correct it, and we reversed all warnings and suspensions that were incorrectly implemented. We are further refining our process to prevent this sort of issue in the future. Emails have been sent to the affected accounts, and the 100 Turbine Points have been credited to affected users.


that would imply going beyond bad script. Now care to try again?

[Postumus]

Probably wasn't really an "autoban", and more like one of their technicians poking at their logs to see what the exploit shows up as, then running a query script to collect the account names of everyone matching that pattern. But he screwed up, and the pattern showed up on many more people than had actually exploited.

So then he had this data file of hundreds of names, which he popped open and read through the first few entries to see that they're formatted correctly and such. Probably he didn't look at the file size to see how long it was, or if he did then he wasn't thinking about the subscriber base to have a good comparison. Then he fed that file into the warning/banning punisher script and here come all the emails.


Kinda like how USA mortgage foreclosures are being processed 100/hour by employees who are barely qualified to work at Burger King.


I dealt with this type of sloppy reporting for years at a fortune five hundred company. I've had these exact same types of problems occur, except instead of people's game time being affected, it was their paychecks, or taxes, or 401K contributions.


Imagine a team of six managers trying to craft the perfect "whoops we messed up, but we promise it won't happen again" letter to the HUNDREDS of employees, including numerous executives, whose 401ks & paychecks we flubbed. All because a lowly report writer, who didn't check his work, gave what he thought was a 'throwaway report' to the wrong manager (who also had no clue what she was doing). So yeah, I understand how this could happen at Turbine.


If it's any consolation to the raging hordes of people who have been so grievously mistreated, I'm sure that the employee(s) who messed this up have received some royal ass chewing; and the report writer's job, if he still has it, is probably now in jeopardy.


In fact, I'm sure if we all just keep complaining as loudly as possible over this gross injustice, we can actually get this guy, and maybe his manager, fired! Wouldn't that make you all feel better? To get some guy fired and lose his livelihood b/c of a stupid mistake that cost you crucial game time?


Someone needs to pay! You lost two hours of gaming!


I don't remember who, but I saw someone compare this event to the injustices carried out by the Stasi in E. Berlin after the Communists took over. That is SPOT ON! This situation is easily that tragic. I was going to compare it to the Pol Pott regime myself, but E. Berlin before the wall is so much more apt!


Kudos to you sir for such a well thought out analogy, and kudos to all you players keeping this thread alive! We need justice!

[Zippo]

I don't remember who, but I saw someone compare this event to the injustices carried out by the Stasi in E. Berlin after the Communists took over. That is SPOT ON! This situation is easily that tragic. I was going to compare it to the Pol Pott regime myself, but E. Berlin before the wall is so much more apt!


Kudos to you sir for such a well thought out analogy, and kudos to all you players keeping this thread alive! We need justice!

I didn't see the analogy, but if his analogy was addressing the silencing of the masses that occurred afterwards then the analogy does draw some parallels.

[Tirkan]

+1, Post.

[Riggs]

Telling someone an opinion is wrong might be awesome entertainment, but its also not possible.(and a page of more blah blah blah)


Claiming something as fact when it is your opinion, then changing your mind when it suits you to claim it was just an opinion...well you cant argue with that logic - because it has none.

Which pretty much sums up everything your flaming about. You use the tactics of deception used every day in real life to accuse everyone else of exactly, exactly the things you are doing, to deflect the truth of what you are doing - or try because not everyone is that dumb. Insult someone and then say your just replying to their insults, use bad logic and then claim they other was first, etc etc.

years in an industry mean zero. Who cares what policy you may or may not have implemented in another company. You could have been the janitor for all anyone knows. Plenty of old, experienced people utterly fail at things every day - again a tactic of someone who is good at failing to fall back on years - not actual skill. Question - why did 'your' company have so many complaints as you claim? That indicates something doesnt it? (Hint - you had experience in a bad company? I am sure that is useful for everyone to know)

I went back to check - in among a couple occasional rational posts there are pages, and pages, and pages of you ranting, belittling, and being all sorts of insulting to people - so yeah I stand by the fact that you're negative.

And completely derailing a threat that had nothing to do with you, unless you work for Turbine or was banned - with about 30% of the posts in the thread now YOUR posts flaming other people - that is called something on forums I think.

Rhymes with stroll.

[justplayingthegame]

Last night, some DDO players received erroneous temporary suspensions or warnings regarding an exploit. Due to a technical issue in our exploit suspension process some players participating in the Mabar festival event were incorrectly notified of a rules violation. Any accounts that were temporarily banned as a result of this issue will have their account access restored and will be credited 100 Turbine Points. Any accounts that received warnings will have those warnings removed from their record.

This error was an isolated incident and should have no further impact for any DDO players. As always, we welcome player feedback on all aspects of DDO and continually seek to improve the quality of the service we provide to players.

We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience or confusion and thank you for your patience while we worked to resolve the issue.

nice

[Riggs]

Ummm... is this thread about answering Chai's questions?

And what was the question, anyway?

:confused:

Apparently he has 20 years of experience making it so - and is telepathic so knows all about Turbine too.

[Zippo]

Claiming something as fact when it is your opinion, then changing your mind when it suits you to claim it was just an opinion...well you cant argue with that logic - because it has none.

Which pretty much sums up everything your flaming about. You use the tactics of deception used every day in real life to accuse everyone else of exactly, exactly the things you are doing, to deflect the truth of what you are doing - or try because not everyone is that dumb. Insult someone and then say your just replying to their insults, use bad logic and then claim they other was first, etc etc.

years in an industry mean zero. Who cares what policy you may or may not have implemented in another company. You could have been the janitor for all anyone knows. Plenty of old, experienced people utterly fail at things every day - again a tactic of someone who is good at failing to fall back on years - not actual skill. Question - why did 'your' company have so many complaints as you claim? That indicates something doesnt it? (Hint - you had experience in a bad company? I am sure that is useful for everyone to know)

I went back to check - in among a couple occasional rational posts there are pages, and pages, and pages of you ranting, belittling, and being all sorts of insulting to people - so yeah I stand by the fact that you're negative.

And completely derailing a threat that had nothing to do with you, unless you work for Turbine or was banned - with about 30% of the posts in the thread now YOUR posts flaming other people - that is called something on forums I think.

Rhymes with stroll.

In all fairness, I am not without blame or guilt as well by continuing to perpetuate the madness with him but for reasons that you obviously have seen.

[toughguyjoe]

Again I ask the same question. What is the best action you can take on this that will send the right message with the correct amount of impact that will affect the change you want to see, without the method of sending that message resulting in further negative reinforcement?



Without getting into any semantics as to what the "Right Message" is and what the "Correct Amount of Impact" should be, here is my answer:

A petition created on the forums, policed by ONLY the employees involved with the banning process that demands that the process be reviewed and that slaps go around on all wrists involved, and that all involved are deprived of smoke breaks and coffee until they straighten up and fly right.

Of course that thread will simply devolve into arguments and drivel so its probably best to just Nuke the site from orbit, its the only way to be sure.

[PopeJual]

No because you keep filling the thread with unrelated content.

Don't dodge the question, Stainer. We demand an immediate answer to Chai's tro^H^H^Hquestion.

And a pony.

[PopeJual]

I dealt with this type of sloppy reporting for years at a fortune five hundred company. I've had these exact same types of problems occur, except instead of people's game time being affected, it was their paychecks, or taxes, or 401K contributions.


Imagine a team of six managers trying to craft the perfect "whoops we messed up, but we promise it won't happen again" letter to the HUNDREDS of employees, including numerous executives, whose 401ks & paychecks we flubbed. All because a lowly report writer, who didn't check his work, gave what he thought was a 'throwaway report' to the wrong manager (who also had no clue what she was doing). So yeah, I understand how this could happen at Turbine.


If it's any consolation to the raging hordes of people who have been so grievously mistreated, I'm sure that the employee(s) who messed this up have received some royal ass chewing; and the report writer's job, if he still has it, is probably now in jeopardy.


In fact, I'm sure if we all just keep complaining as loudly as possible over this gross injustice, we can actually get this guy, and maybe his manager, fired! Wouldn't that make you all feel better? To get some guy fired and lose his livelihood b/c of a stupid mistake that cost you crucial game time?


Someone needs to pay! You lost two hours of gaming!

I don't want someone fired. I want policies put in place that keep this sort of thing from happening. I want real people to actually review a ban before it is put in place (which is what Turbine claims happens). I want to know that they are taking real steps to change their process so that this kind of thing doesn't happen again and not just "my bad, won't do it again, k?"



I don't remember who, but I saw someone compare this event to the injustices carried out by the Stasi in E. Berlin after the Communists took over. That is SPOT ON! This situation is easily that tragic. I was going to compare it to the Pol Pott regime myself, but E. Berlin before the wall is so much more apt!

Bah. This is the internet. If you've gone for 24 continuous hours without hearing someone call a Nazi/socialist/etc. then you're not listening very carefully.

[Zippo]

Bah. This is the internet. If you've gone for 24 continuous hours without hearing someone call a Nazi/socialist/etc. then you're not listening very carefully.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_37YEfRokdrM/TIgFNHfvZSI/AAAAAAAABpU/xNZqstBni6o/s1600/these_are_not_the_droids.jpg

This is not the Nazi you are looking for :D

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

why are you guys still discussing this? Just play the game.

Garth

[Missing_Minds]

why are you guys still discussing this? Just play the game.

Garth

Because they want to try to put server drama lama threads to shame, all while being completely.... _________________ (I'll let the reader fill in with what they think is apt) that most players don't even know about them, let alone forumites are pretty much laughing at them.

[PopeJual]

why are you guys still discussing this? Just play the game.

Garth

I can't I've been banned.

(Or I'm waiting for a raid to fill.)

[Dulcimerist]

http://i474.photobucket.com/albums/rr106/dudly591/die_thread_die.jpg

:)

[Chai]

Lol four years is nothing. You make it sound like it was 14 years. It will survive but in what state. Guild Wars is still going after 6 years and it doesnt even do much anything new now. Then ofcourse there are many much longer running mmos out there.

Its not about whether it survives its about doing mediocre business or big business and whether a large active community or a dwindling one. Thats up to Turbine and partly about how they treat their community as customer service is part of what we pay for as vips anyway.

Its about turning a profit. WOW is the largest crowd by headcount, but they dont turn the largest profit percentage wise. A business like DDO could cater to a niche community, and make bank every single year with a much smaller customer base, simply because they spend much less money than they make. Headcount is one component inthe formula, but its not the entire formula. Resource management is the key.

Its not ONLY up to how Turbine treats their customers though that is one component. Its how the customers react to that treatment. And for a long time now, the message being sent is "kick us, we may complain, but we will take it" - this is a mandate for more of the same to occur. This is why I ask the questions about what to do to break the chain, send the most impacting message, which will affect the change we want.

[Chai]

Don't dodge the question, Stainer. We demand an immediate answer to Chai's tro^H^H^Hquestion.

And a pony.

Thats not a pony, its a dead horse, and you have been beating it for the better half of three days now. The fact that yall wonder why your little threads get locked down is hilarious, when all you have to do is look into a mirror for the reason.

Peace.

[toughguyjoe]

Peace.

Proven time and again, Peace is something this thread has none of.

[Chai]

why are you guys still discussing this? Just play the game.

Garth

For many, this IS the game. Actually logging in and playing is what they do when the forums calm down and get boring.

[PopeJual]

Thats not a pony, its a dead horse, and you have been beating it for the better half of three days now. The fact that yall wonder why your little threads get locked down is hilarious, when all you have to do is look into a mirror for the reason.

Peace.


I'm just curious in asking - is that "yall" the plural for "you" or the more common use of "yall" as a second person singular?

Also, when I look in the mirror, I don't see anything. Apparently, that's changing in Update 8, however.

[BossOfEarth]

...As always, we welcome player feedback on all aspects of DDO and continually seek to improve the quality of the service we provide to players.

We sincerely apologize for any inconvenience or confusion and thank you for your patience while we worked to resolve the issue. Thanks for the apology. I didn't recieve the email until after it had been resolved here on the forums -- I was too busy playing DDO to notice my 'official warning' email. :)

But since you're open to feedback I thought I might comment on the 'official warning' e-mail I recieved from Turbine Support. There e-mail seemed overly formal and yet it lacked any official stuff like case numbers or actual facts. Without any attention to facts the e-mail seemed buffoonish -- like Hitler on a Looney Tunes cartoon. Why not, for example, list the times at which the exploit happened, or what the coordinates were?

I have warm feelings for DDO and the people who made it. I just bought into Amarath and I'm blown away by the artistic vision that went into it. I love DDO and I'd gladly pay for it except I don't trust Turbine with my personal information. I've heard horror stories about phantom billing, leaked credit card numbers, personal information theft with the offer wall, and Mabar bannings. But after getting my own little slice of Turbine Support the nail is in the coffin. I'm not giving you guys my identity or my credit card.

I've dealt with CC fraud before and it's essential to be able to communicate with companies when it happens. I like that the devs have web presence, especialy Keeper, that guy makes me wanna play DDO something fierce, but if I get Mabar banned or there's billing issues that's not something they can help me with.

[Tirkan]

For me, this IS the game. Actually logging in and playing is what I do when the forums calm down and get boring.

Fixed that for you.

[Chai]

Hey look, I'm cleverly typing something inside someone elses quotation marks claiming I fixed something for them.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kpteo5nkFr1qz4zs7o1_500.jpg

[HernandoCortez]

I'm just curious in asking - is that "yall" the plural for "you" or the more common use of "yall" as a second person singular?

Also, when I look in the mirror, I don't see anything. Apparently, that's changing in Update 8, however.


You can always try the high-res version...

[Zippo]

Also, when I look in the mirror, I don't see anything. Apparently, that's changing in Update 8, however.

+1 for that one. That actually got a good laugh out of me.

[joneb1999]

I dealt with this type of sloppy reporting for years at a fortune five hundred company. I've had these exact same types of problems occur, except instead of people's game time being affected, it was their paychecks, or taxes, or 401K contributions.


Imagine a team of six managers trying to craft the perfect "whoops we messed up, but we promise it won't happen again" letter to the HUNDREDS of employees, including numerous executives, whose 401ks & paychecks we flubbed. All because a lowly report writer, who didn't check his work, gave what he thought was a 'throwaway report' to the wrong manager (who also had no clue what she was doing). So yeah, I understand how this could happen at Turbine.


If it's any consolation to the raging hordes of people who have been so grievously mistreated, I'm sure that the employee(s) who messed this up have received some royal ass chewing; and the report writer's job, if he still has it, is probably now in jeopardy.


In fact, I'm sure if we all just keep complaining as loudly as possible over this gross injustice, we can actually get this guy, and maybe his manager, fired! Wouldn't that make you all feel better? To get some guy fired and lose his livelihood b/c of a stupid mistake that cost you crucial game time?


Someone needs to pay! You lost two hours of gaming!


I don't remember who, but I saw someone compare this event to the injustices carried out by the Stasi in E. Berlin after the Communists took over. That is SPOT ON! This situation is easily that tragic. I was going to compare it to the Pol Pott regime myself, but E. Berlin before the wall is so much more apt!


Kudos to you sir for such a well thought out analogy, and kudos to all you players keeping this thread alive! We need justice!

Get real. Its not about justice or seeing someone get fired. Well for me anyway. Its about making a point that people in high up places show more care and responsibiity. Some say the mods and devs can only do what they are allowed to and thats why it took so long to release any information to reassure or calm people. There needs to be better policy than this.

Theres no need for heads to roll, just lessons to be learned. As for the comparison to injustices I get the impression you dont know the dreadful injustices that go on every day to many people in their jobs, getting abused, bullied and fired just because their face doesnt fit or they stand up for themselves.

Now Im go to show my prejudice about people with big wages, power and authority. You need to face up to the responsibility of your roll and when you make mistakes pay down with equal measure to your wage packet . Right now it seems the more money many people make the worse they can do and the less reparation they need to make. Just look at the bankers.

[joneb1999]

This is why I ask the questions about what to do to break the chain, send the most impacting message, which will affect the change we want.

Just let things play out. What will be will be. For me I know I have absolutely no loyalty to turbine. I play the game until it stops suiting me to do so. Im hoping to get into a beta for a few up and coming games and I have been waiting on GW 2 for so long it hurts.

[woghd911]

Ok we just got one of these emails stating we have an official warning and all that. Is this still a bug or did someone actually find an exploit and now anyone who did the Mabar event getting dinged with an official Warning?


I am also offended by the "official" email that tells you nothing but that you have a warning and not to do it again yet they give you no info about what you supposedly did or anything and no way to reply to the email.

Feels like we are guilty until proven innocent in cases like this.

[stainer]

Ok we just got one of these emails stating we have an official warning and all that. Is this still a bug or did someone actually find an exploit and now anyone who did the Mabar event getting dinged with an official Warning?


I am also offended by the "official" email that tells you nothing but that you have a warning and not to do it again yet they give you no info about what you supposedly did or anything and no way to reply to the email.

Feels like we are guilty until proven innocent in cases like this.

You just got one today? 11/30/10?

[woghd911]

You just got one today? 11/30/10?


Now he checked the date and it said 11-10 but how do we know the warning got removed?

[Dulcimerist]

You just got one today? 11/30/10?

I wonder if someone is trying to prank us.

[stainer]

Now he checked the date and it said 11-10 but how do we know the warning got removed?

You did. Ignore it.

[woghd911]

I wonder if someone is trying to prank us.

Weirdest part about the 11-10 email is that it just delivered yesterday.

Hotmail is so awesome. *rolls eyes*

[Lorz]

Weirdest part about the 11-10 email is that it just delivered yesterday.

Hotmail is so awesome. *rolls eyes*

Well...i would say it is worth EVERY PENNY you paid for it.

[st.jimmy91]

For someone pointing fingers about overreactions you are doing quite well with it. I see your viewpoint that if you want to hurt them back do it with your wallet. I see that people have reacted in a non-professional manner. I see that people are genuinely disgusted at Turbine for their actions. The problem is there are people in this game that have friends in this game. There are people that have invested a lot of time. It is hard to walk away. So instead, they vent. They rage against those that are taking something enjoyable and making it not so. Turbine has a really good product and they know it. It is not the game that they are upset at, it is the company running it.

You chastise those that make mountains out of molehills, yet do the same in your rebuttals. You chastise those that complain, while complaining yourself.

My question is this, do you see the hypocrisy in telling people they should not complain, while you complain about their complaints?

Don't feed the troll, or he will keep trolling :)

[TheDearLeader]

Don't feed the troll, or he will keep trolling :)

You do realize the post before yours was 45 days old, right?

[TigrisMorte]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xos2MnVxe-c

[Senshock]

necrolicious


/IbtL

[shadowsaun]

WE HAVE NOT FORGOTTEN!!!!

/ibtl

[Missing_Minds]

Don't feed the troll, or he will keep trolling :)

Don't feel the dead or they keep coming back. ;)

[Memnir]

The post... it lives again!!! :eek:
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http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn12/EnPsyane/mijazom.gif
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[Phidius]

Don't grope the dead or they keep coming back. ;)

My personal perspective in red

[shadowsaun]

*summons hold post*

[NeutronStar]

Don't feed the troll, or he will keep trolling :)

-1 for necroing this stupid thread and for being inflammatory/derogatory.