Can I get around taking toughness?

[seobanio]

Preparing to TR a second time, and I want more feats than I can get (of course). :)

Making a warforged sorc, and I'm wondering if I can find a way to get an acceptable number of hp without taking toughness.

have starting stats:

10 Str
8 Dex
20 Con
10 Int
6 Wis
16 Cha

So my main problem is that I don't know how to do the math on how many extra hp you'll get from con items.

it seems like I would get:

Base 200
gfl 30
6 item 30
+3 exceptional con
+1 ship buff (just to make things even) 20
+2 tome 10
+45 min II helm 45
+20 on DT (might not have this, might go with blue scale docent) 20
+ anything else I've forgotten

would mean I would get 355. Which is less than I would like. I want to break 400. Any thoughts on if I did math wrong or a way to get more? Maybe I'll have to break down and take toughness.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

In my mind a single toughness feat is too good to pass up considering the enhancements that go with it.

[Crazyfruit]

Quori-forged docent might help: +40 (superior false life) & +20 (toughness since you have no Minos)

[Spoprockel]

That +2 tome grants you 20 hp, not 10.

And one thing you forgot is 10 from draconic vitality, from GH favor.

edit: and you got the con wrong.

Base 200
gfl 30
6 item 60
+3 exceptional con 20
+1 ship buff (just to make things even) 20
+2 tome 20
+45 min II helm 45
+20 on DT
+10 draconic

Thats 425 with DT or 405 without DT

Seems like you're already there.

Unless i made some mistakes too :P

[testing1234]

yugo potion gives you +2con/+20hp total +40hp but its expensive to keep up all the time so its more for special hard occasions cant be dispelled though.
find the yugo potion a nice temporary help while you work on equip solution more then a permanent plan.

do think there is a big difference between a 350toon and 400toon caster ive tried both.

[painindaguild]

if u cant think of more ways to increase ur con u probably wont use them if they were given (20 Heroic Durability
10 Draconic Vitality (Gianthold Favor) (Argonessen Favor)
80 Sorcerer Pure level 20 Hit Dice
40 Superior False Life (Item.)
45 Shroud (Item.)
260Constitution Modifier (20+2+7+4+1+2=36)
20 Toughness (Item.)
20 False Life (Spell.)
11 Aid (Potion.)
20 Yugoloth Potion (Secret Effect)
526 hp max
(thx ddobard for this easy work)
for the simple fact that they all take quite some time to acquire. so i wouldnt rely on them.
personally i wouldnt take toughness indeed on a wf sorc, 2 feat starved.
the first tougness feat however is one of the best picks u can do.

so the real question is: do u need the hp.

if this is ur final tr just roll a 32pt testbuild with 20 con and no toughness see how that goes.

[Samadhi]

I don't take toughness on my sorcs. My wizard yes. My sorcs no. (Pretty much the only class I don't take toughness on, though, as I tend to prioritize HP more than most people).

[Hokonoso]

my dc sorcs dont have quicken, my spell pen sorcs dont have quicken. my dps/wf sorcs have both quicken and toughness but have no dcs or spell pen. it's just a tradeoff, instead of making a jack of all sorcerers, make more sorcerers to do the diff things you want them to do!

p.s. wizards suck, play a rogue if you want to traps!!!

[samthedagger]

Can you get away with it? Sure. Most will probably never notice. But that extra 60 hp from feat + enhancements is a great bargain as far as the value of resources on character building goes. That means you can take 1-2 more hits from a melee mob on a capped toon before going down, which is well worth it.

[TFPAQ]

In my mind a single toughness feat is too good to pass up considering the enhancements that go with it.

For the feat plus the enhancements 50+ HP should be a no brainer...

1:
3:
6:
9:
12:
15:
18:

Whatcha using them all for?

[seobanio]

if u cant think of more ways to increase ur con u probably wont use them if they were given

Of course I would use them, that is why I am concerned enough to post a thread. I just came up with stuff off the top of my head. ;) Also... this toon will be pretty twinked. So if I don't currently have the gear, well... that is what grinding is for. :)

Thanks for the help on the math.


(20 Heroic Durability
10 Draconic Vitality (Gianthold Favor) (Argonessen Favor)
80 Sorcerer Pure level 20 Hit Dice
40 Superior False Life (Item.) I have gfl on an item I am likely to use, not sure that superior false life fits into my end gear layout so -10 on this. But in general, yeah you are right, could have 10 more here.
45 Shroud (Item.)
260Constitution Modifier (20+2+7+4+1+2=36) I got to a 32 con, using the things I have/am likely to acquire. Not sure what your numbers all come from, but I did forget 2 from enhancements in my OP, so generally minus 2 con here. However, because I can dream, lets pretend I'm gonna pull a +4 con tome between now and TR.
20 Toughness (Item.)
20 False Life (Spell.) Minus this
11 Aid (Potion.) Minus This.
20 Yugoloth Potion (Secret Effect) Minus this
526 hp max


I don't like to include temporary effects in my base build calculations, because they won't always be up and running. So I bolded some comments about modifications to the calculations above.

Which would make it:
30 GFL
45 Shroud
260 Con
20 Heroic Durability
10 Draconic Vitality
80 20 lvls of sorc
20 Toughness

Giving a grand total of 465 hp!!!!

So the answer is, yes I can do it! Thanks!

[der_kluge]

I think what you're missing is the fact that getting all the stuff is going to take a LOT of work. +30 great false life items don't grow on trees. +3 exceptional Con is from LOTS of Shroud runs. GH favor comes from running Gianhold - a LOT.

You're going to die.... and die and die and die and die and die a LOT trying to acquire all that stuff.


But hey, don't sweat it. It's just death. My spellcasters die ALL the freaking time. It's part of the game.

[voodoogroves]

Yeah but he's a TR.

The greensteel, greater false life, etc. he can work on now.

[Bracosius]

I think what you're missing is the fact that getting all the stuff is going to take a LOT of work. +30 great false life items don't grow on trees. +3 exceptional Con is from LOTS of Shroud runs. GH favor comes from running Gianhold - a LOT.

You're going to die.... and die and die and die and die and die a LOT trying to acquire all that stuff.


But hey, don't sweat it. It's just death. My spellcasters die ALL the freaking time. It's part of the game.

He is on his second TR, I am willing to bet he already has the gear.

I would take toughness, but sometimes I am a hp junkie. Since your a WF sorc I think you could get away with not taking it.

[TheDearLeader]

I think what you're missing is the fact that getting all the stuff is going to take a LOT of work. +30 great false life items don't grow on trees. +3 exceptional Con is from LOTS of Shroud runs. GH favor comes from running Gianhold - a LOT.

You're going to die.... and die and die and die and die and die a LOT trying to acquire all that stuff.


But hey, don't sweat it. It's just death. My spellcasters die ALL the freaking time. It's part of the game.

Actually, the Docent from the Mabar event had Superior False Life, so... yeah. Not so rare there, as long as he had another toon farming it for him. As has been mentioned, there's also the Mindsunder Docent, SFL, Toughness, +6 Con. On a level 20 toon, that's another 120 HP by itself.

+3 Excon could also be ToD rings. Honestly, I'd rather save my larges for crafting something else, and use my junk mediums.

GH favor comes from running Gianthold for like, 4-6 hours. And considering everyone wants their Draconic Vitality, its easy to form a group, or join one already formed.

If I had to make a suggestion, it would be to get Toughness. Then, when you're all tricked out with your fancy gear, go do the dragonmark quest, and use your free feat exchange to swap it out for whatever it is you want more.

[vVAnjilaVv]

It is sad tho isn't it, that basically every class is required to take toughness.

Says something about the state of the game IMO.

It's a nice 40HP cushion for people who don't get the higher end racial toughness enhancements, but still there was a time when a caster who didn't have toughness was not laughed at.

[seobanio]

First: thanks for all the help/input guys! :D One thing though: I'm a she.

As far as the grind/items my biggest problem will be leveling due to having to wait till I can use things. But I am solely interested in endgame when I build and I can make it to 20 no problem so I'm not too worried about that. There is no issue at all with getting the stuff, my current toon is pretty twinked. The only thing I don't currently have is my Min II helm to tier III, but there is no way I would TR prior to getting that. (Min II helm was the last GS item I wanted to make, so it wasn't on the priority list). Oh, and I need to swap some stuff around on my DT. All told though, I could just buy the mats and do the DT grind in the next few days and be ready to TR by next week, no big.

For yugo pots I plan on stocking up on a ton of them before tr'ing, so I will have them long before I can earn the favor again.

Feats (ignore the order, these just off the top of my head and this is end game, not while leveling. (i.e. if i dont have extend at end game, its bec. i've switched it out for something else. Though I am really hesitant to not have extend.):

1 Maximize
3 Empower
6 Quicken
9 Past Life: Wizard
12 Force of Personality (I really like this one/not getting rid of it :))
15 Heighten
18 Looking at either extend/spell pen (i'll already have +3 from past lives)/a spell focus/enlarge (looks fun, i've never taken it before and unsure of its usefulness) or toughness if I were to take it


Also on a new subject: I hesitate to mention this because everyone is immediately going to say, don't waste the stuff/roll a barb. (I don't want to) I am thinking of epicing a SoS, would the +10 to hit (i'd be using masters touch) make it easier/feasible for me to pull out a sword in situations where I am out of mana/something has only a sliver of life left/I want to pretend I am a melee for a few minutes for some giggles.

[vVAnjilaVv]

My question is, are you planning on being a nuker....if so drop the spell pen feat and take the toughness :D.

BTW.....nice to have another "she" who is vocal about it........a lot of players in this game are too lazy to acknowledge things in a neutral gender lingo....including a lot of the female players.....it's very annoying.


I never let up about it either...sometimes I question why it's ok to assume everyone you're playing with is a guy...what are you playing from a prison cell or something? :p And don't try the...oh the majority...line either......u know where you can stick that half-a&^ed junk.

[Thrudh]

12 Force of Personality (I really like this one/not getting rid of it :))

Heh, this is the one I'd replace in a heartbeat.

My wizard has run through two lives with a **** will-save, and it's never been an issue...

[Postumus]

It is sad tho isn't it, that basically every class is required to take toughness.

Says something about the state of the game IMO.



That's exactly what I think. And everyone also gets that 20hp heroic whatever feat automatically as well.


It's ridiculous a caster needs to take toughness in order to be considered viable. It seems antithetical to the traditional concept of the D&D caster.

[seobanio]

I think my play style is more dynamic than just nuker or cc or whatever. I want to be able to nuke in IQ and CC in amrath and epics. Its just whatever I think the situation calls for.

I took the wiz past life/heighten/considering taking spell pen so that I can CC effectively. But I also have max and empower so that when it is time to blow Sh*& up, I can do that too.

As far as the female/male thing... /shrug i'm not bothered by it. I'm in a guild of maybe 20 - 30 people, and there are only 2 other females who are hard core players. I used to be in a guild of at least 100 active players, and again: there were 2 other hard core female players. (by hard core I mean on all the time/twinked toons/etc Not trying to say I am all that uber... i'm just addicted lol) The percentage of players that have been in the game long enough and are dedicated (read: addicted) enough to be posting about their twinked legend build that are female is extremely low. Of course they thought I was male, and I'm fine with that.

[vVAnjilaVv]

I'm pretty hardcore, but I would much rather be PLAYING the game than on the forums trying to impress people with my builds.

A sheet with numbers and what your equipment is on it is far from the total of your playing ability and experience....I personally don't buy into it much at all.

I have played with some of the people that brag about their builds here and seen them do some of the most boneheaded things you could think of......like having on the wrong gear because it's way more important to have 20 different awesome robes than to link in party chat than to be wearing the right one for the situation.

The dip that's running around doing a TAP run who still has their dual vorpals equipped instead of their disruptors and it takes them a run and a half to figure out why they aren't working.

[seobanio]

edited out

[Nyvn]

It is sad tho isn't it, that basically every class is required to take toughness.

Says something about the state of the game IMO.

It's a nice 40HP cushion for people who don't get the higher end racial toughness enhancements, but still there was a time when a caster who didn't have toughness was not laughed at.

Yes, a time when non humans got 4 Feats, 2 extra con was only 10hp, and we only got 4 enhancements.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Lol... I disagreed with you... so you are angry.;) Whateves

I wasn't personally attacking you......wow for not minding being "just one of the guys" you sure are sensitive. Whatever :rolleyes:

[vVAnjilaVv]

Yes, a time when non humans got 4 Feats, 2 extra con was only 10hp, and we only got 4 enhancements.

Exxagerate much?

[Samadhi]

12 Force of Personality (I really like this one/not getting rid of it :))
.

You can really like it all you want, but this is such a wasted feat slot that it is not even funny.

I mentioned earlier that neither of my sorcs have toughness. One of them, I would consider dropping spell pen for toughness on, because depending on what I am currently considering endgame, one or the other might be better. However, under no circumstances ever would I consider picking up FOP. There are literally almost no circumstances that my will saves come into play and running around with two sorcs without insane will saves I feel very confident in recommending that you dump them.

Instead of just saying how much you like it, you might want to consider what quests you are running where this actually matters.

[seobanio]

Sigh... I hate having low saves. Particularly since I will be tr'ing from a toon with all 3 saves at 30+ when buffed.

I would hate to waste a feat though. Maybe I could take extend and spell pen (if not needed due to +3/enhancements switch this out to toughness).

Hmmmm

[Lord_WC]

You really don't need toughness on a wf sorc, not even on a 32 point build. And yes, you will be epic viable nonetheless. Speaking from experience.

And I really would drop FoP for something else:)

[Hokonoso]

my dc sorcs dont have quicken, my spell pen sorcs dont have quicken. my dps/wf sorcs have both quicken and toughness but have no dcs or spell pen. it's just a tradeoff, instead of making a jack of all sorcerers, make more sorcerers to do the diff things you want them to do!

p.s. wizards suck, play a rogue if you want to traps!!!

srsly? neg rep for joking about wizards? you guys have no class at all!!!

[vVAnjilaVv]

srsly? neg rep for joking about wizards? you guys have no class at all!!!

Seriously...just turn your rep bar off....most of the people who give neg rep are people who have no power in real life........the rep system is broke.

When you get enough neg rep to have a Turbine official contact you, then you can start worrying...I really wouldn't put any value at all into your rep bar.

[therobb]

Feat swap shards cost ~115 points in the store so it's easy enough to swap feats and test it out.

I'd roll your guy up with toughness to start. When you level up and can equip enough gear that you don't need toughness, swap it out for something else.

If you're not happy, swap it back.

[Bracosius]

I would re-think force of personality on a WF sorc. Due to WF immunities there are many things that no longer concern you, unlike the fleshies, and the things that do don't seem to be worth a feet.

[AndyD47]

I like toughness personally,especially on a warforged anything.
If you don't like it once you find your gear you can just spec out of it,I save up my visit to lockania just for this sort of thing.

It's a matter of personal opinion really,just try it and see.

[vVAnjilaVv]

I would re-think force of personality on a WF sorc. Due to WF immunities there are many things that no longer concern you, unlike the fleshies, and the things that do don't seem to be worth a feet.

Yeah, especially with Heroic surge where every de-buff and nasty spell enemy casters throw at you now has a shortened timer.

[Nyvn]

Exxagerate much?

No, I'd say that the desert was the first time that we starting needing more HP, especially on casters. Elite Wiz King was the loot run of choice, and those !@#$ archers plinking away could drain your HP fast.

Of course we didn't have greensteel, +2 tomes were rare, con and GFL on one item was a wet dream' so squeezing HP in how ever we could was a bit tougher.