Question about minimum melee hp...

[elfforce1]

What is a good minimum benchmark for melee hp endgame?

Obviously the more you have the better, but was curious on what the generally accepted minimum was, I keep hearing no one below ~400hp attack this or that, so I think it's 400, but not sure. Reason I'm asking is I have a melee flavor build I want to try out, but it could be lacking in the hp department.

Thanks for your replies they are greatly appreciated.

[FluffyCalico]

What is a good minimum benchmark for melee hp endgame?

Obviously the more you have the better, but was curious on what the generally accepted minimum was, I keep hearing no one below ~400hp attack this or that, so I think it's 400, but not sure. Reason I'm asking is I have a melee flavor build I want to try out, but it could be lacking in the hp department.

Thanks for your replies they are greatly appreciated.

What class?

If you have evasion 450+

If you are a fighter or barb 550+

By the way these are unbuffed unraged #s

The exception are things that will never have aggro and just jump on the back of things the tank has. Those might get by with 400 hp

[Spoprockel]

From what i've heard the last boss in Tower of Despair can hit you with disintegrate for more than 400 damage,
and he will regain about 25% of his health if anyone dies in there.
No place for someone below at least 400 hp unbuffed i guess.

edit:

The exception are things that will never have aggro and just jump on the back of things the tank has.

And by "things" you mean rogues, i guess :P

[FluffyCalico]

From what i've heard the last boss in Tower of Despair can hit you with disintegrate for more than 400 damage,
and he will regain about 25% of his health if anyone dies in there.
No place for someone below at least 400 hp unbuffed i guess.

If Horoth hits someone besides the Main tank with disentigrate something went horribly wrong

[ddobard1]

As a melee Hero at level 20 you must have more than 550 HP. (Not raged!)

[vVAnjilaVv]

I think 400 HP minimum on any class in the game is a ridiculous suffocating number.....some of them yes.....but I do not think it should be the standard min for all race/class combinations.

This number basically forces lower HD characters to sacrifice build points or feats to reach this mark or forces a caster to be something other than a Drow or Elf.

Max starting casting stat leaves you with what, everything else into CON.......which means your walking around with an 8 STR which is also very suffocating.

Altho I agree that CON is never a dump stat, I simply feel the 400 mark for certain class/race combinations is too much.

I think the funny thing about this is I can walk around on my level 17 rogue who only has 300 HP atm unbuffed and survive someplace a higher HP build will die at because they think because they have more HP they don't have to pay attention as much.....was happening all day yesterday while I was doing Vale quests. I didn't die once, and just about everyone I partied with did, and it wasn't because they had less HP than me.

[FluffyCalico]

I think the funny thing about this is I can walk around on my level 17 rogue who

He said endgame. At 17 you can't even enter endgame quests.

[vVAnjilaVv]

He said endgame. At 17 you can't even enter endgame quests.

Yeah but by endgame/level 20 I doubt I am going to have 400HP on that build either. The example I used above was more a way of saying just because you have a lot of HP it does not make u invincible, you still have to be a good quality player. This is the same at level 1 or at level 20 and anywhere in between.

[Spoprockel]

Also he was asking specifically about melee characters.

And it's not that hard to hit those 400hp on a rogue. With 14 base con i'm one T3 GS hp cloak upgrade away.
And i'm doing fine stat wise, on a 28 pt build. Not perfect, but fine. Perfection will kick in on TR :P

[vVAnjilaVv]

Also he was asking specifically about melee characters.

And it's not that hard to hit those 400hp on a rogue. With 14 base con i'm one T3 GS hp cloak upgrade away.
And i'm doing fine stat wise, on a 28 pt build. Not perfect, but fine. Perfection will kick in on TR :P

And like I said above, my OP was in regards to people who may not have 400 HP at endgame......it's not the end of the world.

I agree, that 400 HP can be achieved by any race/class by 20th, it's just does the builder want to sacrfice everything else they can have for it. For a race like a drow/elf going from 12 to 14 CON means losing 4 build points for 20 HP at level 20........that's a big hit especially for a 28pt build who may want/need build points somewhere else.

Monks and Rangers are melee's, depending on the build and race you make it's not always easy to hit 400 HP with them.

[d4rkstars]

well indeed the numbers here are pretty high (too much imo)

OP asks for an average idea of what he should have when he reaches lvl 20, to plan ahead;

he doesnt ask how much hp your ubergeared legend hp has


550+ for a "normal" "possibly first char" fighter is wrong, this is what you get when you invest in con, buy +2 tome (or loot +4) get mino legend, GS item and being a WF

this is not what an average fighter should have, OP do not gimp yourself to reach such ridiculous amounts.

make your melee char as it should be, start with 14 con if you can, find yourself a greater false life item and be happy.

you have time to work on what perfect gear you can get

350-400 hp is a decent base for any regular melee

[vVAnjilaVv]

well indeed the numbers here are pretty high (too much imo)

OP asks for an average idea of what he should have when he reaches lvl 20, to plan ahead;

he doesnt ask how much hp your ubergeared legend hp has


550+ for a "normal" "possibly first char" fighter is wrong, this is what you get when you invest in con, buy +2 tome (or loot +4) get mino legend, GS item and being a WF

this is not what an average fighter should have, OP do not gimp yourself to reach such ridiculous amounts.

make your melee char as it should be, start with 14 con if you can, find yourself a greater false life item and be happy.

you have time to work on what perfect gear you can get

350-400 hp is a decent base for any regular melee

Yep, I agree....unfortunately the mindset of what a lot of people reply with is Minos, +2-4 con tome, a fully crafted shroud item and that you a WF'ed or Dwarf are all standard.

[FluffyCalico]

he doesnt ask how much hp your ubergeared legend hp has




550 is what his fighter/barb should have when it starts endgame and is noway is anything special...its the good place to start that he was asking about.

[NaturalHazard]

As a melee Hero at level 20 you must have more than 550 HP. (Not raged!)

Whats a melee hero? A melee charactor? The main tank?

[Ebonta]

Whats a melee hero? A melee charactor? The main tank?

A melee whose TR'd into a 34 point build.

[Spoprockel]

Maybe we should define what endgame means.

Elite Amrath quests? Eite ToD? Epics?

I don't think you'll get any far in epics with 350-400 hp on a front line fighter.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Yep, I agree....unfortunately the mindset of what a lot of people reply with is Minos, +2-4 con tome, a fully crafted shroud item and that you a WF'ed or Dwarf are all standard.

Minos helm is easy to get by end game, that's hardly uber gear. The same for a +2 con tome - highly likely to be pulled by L20, or guarenteed with 1750 favor.

My L19 drow rogue has more HP than you suggest.

[NaturalHazard]

A melee whose TR'd into a 34 point build.

Isnt the op asking for melee charactor? Not TR 34 point melee charactor? why is he giving just what a tr 34 point melee charactor should have?

[DrNuegebauer]

Minos helm is easy to get by end game, that's hardly uber gear. The same for a +2 con tome - highly likely to be pulled by L20, or guarenteed with 1750 favor.

My L19 drow rogue has more HP than you suggest.

Or you can buy the +2 con tome for a couple hundred K plat on the AH.

minos/ +2 tome are certainly absolute bare minimums in terms of HP gear.

[NaturalHazard]

Minos legens not hard to get.

[Nospheratus]

IMO D10 toons (fighter, paly, ranger, etc) should have 500+ at level 20 without any special equipment, like GS or Epics... My 28pt fighter has close to that without GFL, just a minos legens. EDIT: and only had a +1 tome...

Barbs should have more, i'd say at least 600+ unbuffed, unraged. Rogues should try to get near 400!

To all other toons, they should have less than 300! Try to aim to 350+ unbuffed even casters can reach it. It's not that hard...

It really depends on how well you move around and how well you avoid damage, but sometimes avoiding damage is not an option.

My rogue used to have a few over 300 back when cap was 16 and sometimes i had some trouble staying in the fight in shroud part5, even though i had no trouble at all on any other quest. The problem was that harry hits everyone to which he is turned.

The same goes for spells like disintegrate (which is a Fort save - low on rogues).

[FluffyCalico]

Yep, I agree....unfortunately the mindset of what a lot of people reply with is Minos, +2-4 con tome, a fully crafted shroud item and that you a WF'ed or Dwarf are all standard.

Nah my level 17 Half-Orc fighter has 500 hp already. half-Orcs don't get con enhaments and either do fighters. It clearly can't be wearing TOD or epic gear as its level 17...and I do NOT consider him to be a high HP fighter. More middle of the road.

[Dragavon]

Yeah but by endgame/level 20 I doubt I am going to have 400HP on that build either. The example I used above was more a way of saying just because you have a lot of HP it does not make u invincible, you still have to be a good quality player. This is the same at level 1 or at level 20 and anywhere in between.

Well, when you reach level 20 and try doing epic quests we can talk about this again :D

[NaturalHazard]

[QUOTE=Nospheratus;3379805]IMO D10 toons (fighter, paly, ranger, etc) should have 500+ at level 20 without any special equipment, like GS or Epics... My 28pt fighter has close to that without GFL, just a minos legens. EDIT: and only had a +1 tome...

Rangers are not d10 they get d8.

[Nospheratus]

IMO D10 toons (fighter, paly, ranger, etc) should have 500+ at level 20 without any special equipment, like GS or Epics... My 28pt fighter has close to that without GFL, just a minos legens. EDIT: and only had a +1 tome...

Rangers are not d10 they get d8.

oops! Make that 460 then! :)

[ddobard1]

From my game experience and I am not talking about any specific Hero, Heroes die not because Heroes are very confident for having many HP, but because they died often in the past and the Heroes don't mind anymore, may be Heroes even get amused so the other Heroes have to pick their Soulstone. I don't know, just a guess.

[Danmor]

I think 400 HP minimum on any class in the game is a ridiculous suffocating number.....some of them yes.....but I do not think it should be the standard min for all race/class combinations.

My FvS/Monk elf with 12 starting con is sitting at 492 hp unbuffed.
I took Toughness, once.

I don't see where the sacrifice comes in. With a minimal investment of one feat (toughness) and a couple of ap for the toughness enhancements you get a lot of hp.

So you'd have to have a special build that can't afford to sacrifice one feat to stay below the 400hp mark.

80 level hp (d4)
20 heroic durability
10 draconic vitality
20 con bonus for 12 base con
60 (+6 con item)
30 GFL
45 Shroud hp
20 minos
---
285
without toughness or any enhancements. With a minimal investment you get that up to 400hp

[Lord_WC]

Depends on what you want to run.

300hp is near useless even in shroud for anyone going anywhere near where hurting happens. The dps the rogue provides does not worth the fact he cant live through the 7s cooldown of mass heal. Hell, a level 13 rogue can have 300hp...

400hp is enough for normal lvl17+ quests on normal and with evasion.

500hp is enough for elite/epics if you have evasion, good reflex saves (30 is the bare minimum here). A dbf easily hits you 250+ on a fail and there are a few quests where you simply get the damage, no matter what (orthon cleaves, epic wiz king - horrid wilting at all comes to my mind). You won't main tank anything, dont even try it, position yourself and put something which lessens hate.

600hp is enough for about anything in the game, if you get the proper equipment.

I don't think my toons are so uber, or want to brag, just my feelings:
-My bard (with evasion and 32 reflex) has 475 base hp, 535 rage+madstoned. Sometimes in select quests he runs out of hp especially in prolonged fights (wiz king, velah). Have to stop dps to scrollheal myself, which is not good.
-My monk has 650hp buffed (with imp. evasion and 34 reflex). That's plenty and can tank about anything.
-My fvs has 555 hp buffed, obviously no evasion. While he's not the first to run out of hp during melee (13 dr helps a lot), but as soon as spells are involved, he goes down pretty fast. Usually I'm the first who needs the healing in spell heavy environments.

[Danmor]

Depends on what you want to run.

300hp is near useless even in shroud for anyone going anywhere near where hurting happens. The dps the rogue provides does not worth the fact he cant live through the 7s cooldown of mass heal. Hell, a level 13 rogue can have 300hp...

400hp is enough for normal lvl17+ quests on normal and with evasion.

500hp is enough for elite/epics if you have evasion, good reflex saves (30 is the bare minimum here). A dbf easily hits you 250+ on a fail and there are a few quests where you simply get the damage, no matter what (orthon cleaves, epic wiz king - horrid wilting at all comes to my mind). You won't main tank anything, dont even try it, position yourself and put something which lessens hate.

600hp is enough for about anything in the game, if you get the proper equipment.


Try hate tanking in ToD :P

Anyways, I was just trying to point out that 400hp can be fairly easily achieved even when starting with 12 con (i.e. getting a +2 tome and toughness)

Having anything less than 400hp at endgame makes you a very short-lived character. Don't do it, or get used to being carried around in a backpack.

[Lord_WC]

Try hate tanking in ToD :P

Anyways, I was just trying to point out that 400hp can be fairly easily achieved even when starting with 12 con (i.e. getting a +2 tome and toughness)

Having anything less than 400hp at endgame makes you a very short-lived character. Don't do it, or get used to being carried around in a backpack.

Did exactly that on my monk, both sully/horoth up to elite (um, separately of course). I would never go anywhere near them on my other toons (well, except on my bard, i can tank sully on normal, but that's no real achievement:)).

And yes, we do agree that 400- hp on lvl20 is mostly useless on a melee.

[Baloran]

My FvS/Monk elf with 12 starting con is sitting at 492 hp unbuffed.
I took Toughness, once.

I don't see where the sacrifice comes in. With a minimal investment of one feat (toughness) and a couple of ap for the toughness enhancements you get a lot of hp.

So you'd have to have a special build that can't afford to sacrifice one feat to stay below the 400hp mark.

80 level hp (d4)
20 heroic durability
10 draconic vitality
20 con bonus for 12 base con
60 (+6 con item)
30 GFL
45 Shroud hp
20 minos
---
285
without toughness or any enhancements. With a minimal investment you get that up to 400hp

Can you please break down the "minimal investment" for the additional 115 hp?

I'm getting: 42 hp from toughness + enhancements (con: -2 = only two racial enhancements, none for wiz/sorc)

Another: 20 from a +2 tome

How do I get the missing 63hp (without buffs)?


Cheers

Baloran

[dunklezhan]

My point on things like the 'minimum HP levels' based on my experience so far - so far!! My highest toon is my L15 monk - is this:

For those that say 'minimum X hitpoints to survive at Y level', please consider how easy it is to acheive the necessary gear by that level in order to acheive the HPs.

E.g. It is possible to do Orchard at L10, with help and a dedicated tap farming plan, in order to get your Minos. However I've been spending maybe one night a week doing this, with my monk + higher level arcane guildies & healers over the last three to four weeks - I've got 12 taps. This is from full clears, doing caravan/rat pile/recall/reform/rinse/repeat, the works. He started doing it at L12. In between farming taps - because its boring to nothing else night after night durnit! - he's been questing. As a consequence he's now L15. Way beyond the supposed 'minimum' range where 'you should have your Minos by now'.

So how long before this monk becomes 'unnacceptable'? He's got heavy fort. He's got FL (not GFL and not the extra Toughness feat bestowed by the item), and Deathblock items, he's got +4 stat items minumum (the +6s aren't dropping - I'm bidding on the AH for various ones but I can't afford to outright buy them). But he still has less than 300Hp unbuffed. He's not gimped stat & buildwise as far as I can tell. but he's a L15 melee toon, and fully buffed doesn't hit 400HP. The minos will I think push me up to 350 or so unbuffed (though I'll have to lose my nice +lots concentration helm. oh well)

In groups, he hardly ever dies unless I do something monumentally stupid (I have been known to be moving so fast I run off a narrow walkway into lava, for example) or its a tough boss fight and I/the group aren't equipped for it (a marut with no chaos weapons for example... ).

But according to the minimum HP philosophy he's totally unacceptable. I'm working on it, but that isn't enough for some people when you read threads like this.

In game, with my guildies, what I have on that monk is enough and I don't feel that they're carrying me (except when I fall in lava. Then they're literally carrying me...).
I agree with heavy fort & at least the ability to equip a deathblock item are very desirable requirements as soon as you can get them. But its not a minimum requirement until maybe L13-14. I agree that at least one Toughness feat is very, very desirable. But with good skills - you can manage without. I know this, because I know some people managing without, and trust me, they gots da skillz. If you are new to the game or don't have the skills (I fall somewhat into the former, and definitely into the latter), then not to have Toughness is just asking for trouble. For you (and me) toughness is a minimum requirement on all toons.

For hardcore raiders and powergamers, that attitude absolutely is not good enough, I wouldn't claim it is, and I understand why such players would feel strongly that it is an unacceptable approach.

But I'd ask those same hardcore raiders and powergamers to perhaps caveat their posts to make it clear that this is the standpoint they're talking from - often they talk in absolute terms when its not strictly true at least for standard quests. Epic I really have no experience with and they may well be right about that. If you're building for endgame, pay attention to these people. If you're building just to get to 20 and TR until you've got a number of TRs under your belt before then wanting to take to endgame (which many people seem to want to do)... then not so much.

[Noctus]

Minimum for a melee @20th level:
* 400 if you have Evasion
* 450 if not.




And taking Toughness, eating a +2 CON tome, wearing Minos Legens and a Greensteel HP item is not sacrifice.
---> Its the surest way to boost your DPS. Yes, boost your DPS, as Soulstones go through a sharp drop in their damage output curve.


Not to mention the fact that a 3xx HP gives you an autodecline for the last groupspaces who are pugged. - Even if the alternative is an empty slot. Empty slots dont stress the healers and suck their resources dry in the attempt to keep them alive. :eek:

[Lord_WC]

snip

You missed one part of the conversation. We are talking about endgame. Shroud is not endgame, and can net you +45 hp. Tod normal is not endgame and can give you +3 ex. con. IQ is not endgame and can give you quorforged if you happen to be wf.

We are talking here about endgame/mainly epics. And if/when you start running epics/elite tod/etc, you will see that how much more incoming damage you take. You really need those hp, don't jump into conclusions from your performance in gh/orchard.

[Emili]

Yeah but by endgame/level 20 I doubt I am going to have 400HP on that build either. The example I used above was more a way of saying just because you have a lot of HP it does not make u invincible, you still have to be a good quality player. This is the same at level 1 or at level 20 and anywhere in between.
My elf rogue and elf bard both have over 400 hp ... both starting base stat con was 14. My elf wizard (who is old) on the otherhand does not and I plan to LR her to fix that.

[Danmor]

Can you please break down the "minimal investment" for the additional 115 hp?

I'm getting: 42 hp from toughness + enhancements (con: -2 = only two racial enhancements, none for wiz/sorc)

Another: 20 from a +2 tome

How do I get the missing 63hp (without buffs)?


Cheers

Baloran

Hmm... don't know what I was thinking there. Without the class enhancements it gets a lot tougher :/
But to be fair, starting a melee toon without toughness enhancements with 12 con is asking for trouble. I guess you could go for +2 exceptional and +2 tome, but at that point it goes from "minimal" to "some" effort.

It all made sense earlier. i guess i'll have to drink some more and then figure out where it went wrong.

[Hokonoso]

What class?

If you have evasion 450+

If you are a fighter or barb 550+

By the way these are unbuffed unraged #s

The exception are things that will never have aggro and just jump on the back of things the tank has. Those might get by with 400 hp

or if you are a pro-twitch gamer that isnt a tank you can dump con and no one will notice. it's the diff between a drow sorc and a wf sorc, the drow actually has to know how to play, the wf doesnt.

[Theolin]

I would agree with the 400 min with evasion, that's what I have on my wiz/rog and when in epics its enough barley but it is, its not a matter of if you get hit but when, it will happen and when it does it will take you down, 3-6 hiits at 50-100 each can happen in less than 1 second & no healers reaction time can save you.

And no I don't have all the uber gear close but not there yet & I didn't max out con either so its not that hard to do

[vVAnjilaVv]

Minos helm is easy to get by end game, that's hardly uber gear. The same for a +2 con tome - highly likely to be pulled by L20, or guarenteed with 1750 favor.

My L19 drow rogue has more HP than you suggest.

Yes, but you are forgetting the fact that this is no longer a subscriber only game, and not everyone buys Necro IV......Minos can no longer be considered standard gear IMO.

[LuckyLuke2]

This is from full clears, doing caravan/rat pile/recall/reform/rinse/repeat, the works.

Taps running on caravan/rats only is pretty boring indeed. I hit about 12 rare spots on each run and get an average of 2 taps/run (got runs with 10 on 12 rare spawns and 50% drop rate for taps and had runs with 4 rare and no taps drops). But I can honestly not imagine that it would take me 4 weeks to obtain 20.

One of my newer toons needs a Minos (battlecleric) and so far I have acquired 14 taps on 6 runs (give or take 45 mins max per run), just solo'ing the lot with a hireling and a summon. Only the big eye needs some strategy (I just run up and range him - death from above -), but otherwise it's pretty linear. On a melee toon it might be a bit harder, but as a monk your AC should be pretty decent and undead slaying wraps are not that hard to obtain (especially with the wraps of endless light you could get from the Mabar event).

Farming taps and relics in GH are one of the activities that I am not very fond of ... but soem plain stubborness will get you through it ... :D.

[ganondalf]

Once I finish my greensteel item my wizard will have over 519 hp unbuffed, and 559 hp in lich form. It's not hard to get it up there.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Well, when you reach level 20 and try doing epic quests we can talk about this again :D

LMAO...u think the example I gave is the only character I have......I have done a few epics and some with less than 400HP toons and I held my own quite fine.

The only one that went disastrously was EPIC Last Stand, and my almost 400HP elven dark monk died the least amount of times out of everyone in the party.

All the HP in the world is not going to help and unskilled party or a party who does not have control of the situation, all high points are on some players is just a tiny additional delay to their inevitable death.

[vVAnjilaVv]

My elf rogue and elf bard both have over 400 hp ... both starting base stat con was 14. My elf wizard (who is old) on the otherhand does not and I plan to LR her to fix that.



Well, I'm happy your content with that, for me going from 12 to 14 CON is a huge sacrifice in build points especially for a rogue that needs so many points in so many places.

I just can't handle having a low STR and constantly having to battle with how much I can carry or being Enfeebled or fatigued and dropped into a medium or heavy load.

[Lord_WC]

Yes, but you are forgetting the fact that this is no longer a subscriber only game, and not everyone buys Necro IV......Minos can no longer be considered standard gear IMO.

I'm sorry, I'm not being rude here, just stating facts:
- If they are free to play, their 'endgame' is at lvl14ish. So, yeah, 300 hp at there is mighty fine.
- Also, if I pug out the last few spots in a somewhat challenging quest, you will never hear me saying 'Uh, oh, he's f2p, I guess his 300hp rogue is fine then, and I just dump this 500hp rogue'.
- No matter what, by 'endgame' Minos is ridiculously easy to get compared even to a +45 hp single shard item. If all else fails, you may buy taps from the ah and get a guest pass.

But I don't think I'm alone with the tought that we should not lower our expectations because f2p is here. If your red bar runs out, you die. If you're dead, you can't contribute to success. If you are dead a lot of times, you won't run endgame.

And yes, if you are a top notch player, your skills may lessen the hp requirement, however for the average player I still stand that those bare minimums are that. Bare and minimum.

[ganondalf]

or if you are a pro-twitch gamer that isnt a tank you can dump con and no one will notice. it's the diff between a drow sorc and a wf sorc, the drow actually has to know how to play, the wf doesnt.

Wait, so your justification for purposefully gimping your character is that you "know how to play the game"?

Isn't that a bit of a contradiction?

[Lord_WC]

Wait, so your justification for purposefully gimping your character is that you "know how to play the game"?

Isn't that a bit of a contradiction?

You can get by. Like making a wf sorc without toughness. Your hp suffers (well, alot), but that +1 feat can be a whole world of difference in awesomeness ^^

But not anytime and certanly not in all builds.

[dunklezhan]

You missed one part of the conversation. We are talking about endgame. Shroud is not endgame, and can net you +45 hp. Tod normal is not endgame and can give you +3 ex. con. IQ is not endgame and can give you quorforged if you happen to be wf.

We are talking here about endgame/mainly epics. And if/when you start running epics/elite tod/etc, you will see that how much more incoming damage you take. You really need those hp, don't jump into conclusions from your performance in gh/orchard.

My apologies, you are correct and I was not clear enough in my response - the OP was about endgame. But there are still a number of posts talking about the 'minimum' HP totals as you level. My post was addressing those, and as such was as off topic as the posts I was responding to.

In my defence I did say in my post that I know nothing about end game and if you're gearing yourself toward that level of play then you need to listen to the folks telling you in absolute terms what will and will not cut it.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Well, all I have to say is, if brute force and high HP are the only obtainable methods to achieving success, then the DEVS will probably continue to make harder hitting higher HP mobs until skill and tactic will be something that is once again necessary to be victorious.

I'm not saying HP are not important, because they most definitely are.......what I am saying is 600 HP and a dual shard tier 3 GS or Epic SoS isn't going to help you at all if you are an unskilled player. Sure they might look good on your resume or MyDDO character page, but one weapon and your number of hit points does not equal the total sum of a players competence.

And taps last I have checked have been raised in price very high compared to what they were......also I said it's not a subscriber based game anymore...I was not referring to F2P only players and asking for your sympathies for them....a premium player's life does not end at 14 tho, and it is more than possible for many premium players to not have the Necro IV pack. I would definitely not put getting a Minos in the ridiculously easy category anymore.......before EU...yes....but not now.

I certainly do not expect anyone to lessen their standards for F2P players, and I am one of them.....I have no sympathies for people who don't put a dime into this game...trust me.......but it seems there is a bit of confusion sometimes......F2P is not premium...and premium is not F2P.

All that being said.....the funny thing is there are probably a lot of F2P players that are way better than some ViPS.

[Chai]

I think 400 HP minimum on any class in the game is a ridiculous suffocating number.....some of them yes.....but I do not think it should be the standard min for all race/class combinations.

This number basically forces lower HD characters to sacrifice build points or feats to reach this mark or forces a caster to be something other than a Drow or Elf.

Max starting casting stat leaves you with what, everything else into CON.......which means your walking around with an 8 STR which is also very suffocating.

Altho I agree that CON is never a dump stat, I simply feel the 400 mark for certain class/race combinations is too much.

I think the funny thing about this is I can walk around on my level 17 rogue who only has 300 HP atm unbuffed and survive someplace a higher HP build will die at because they think because they have more HP they don't have to pay attention as much.....was happening all day yesterday while I was doing Vale quests. I didn't die once, and just about everyone I partied with did, and it wasn't because they had less HP than me.

My drow rogue with 14 con had ~470 before TR.

Thats a D6 class, with no class HP enhancements, 2 racial HP enhancements, 1 toughness feat.

Wheres the sacrifice in feats and build points? Besides the Shroud HP item, every single gear item he has related to HP can be bought off the brokers in the market place - so there wasnt any huge amount of gear farming either.


Well, all I have to say is, if brute force and high HP are the only obtainable methods to achieving success, then the DEVS will probably continue to make harder hitting higher HP mobs until skill and tactic will be something that is once again necessary to be victorious.

I'm not saying HP are not important, because they most definitely are.......what I am saying is 600 HP and a dual shard tier 3 GS or Epic SoS isn't going to help you at all if you are an unskilled player. Sure they might look good on your resume or MyDDO character page, but one weapon and your number of hit points does not equal the total sum of a players competence.

Generally speaking if someone knows how to build they know how to play. If I have to hedge my bets, I would say someone with an epic SOS isnt an unskilled player. Can it happen? Yeah, i guess someone could pike a whole bunch of eVON content, totally suck, and come out of it with the weapon. I doubt that person would continue to get into that content if they kept dying due to low HP, and lack of play ability.

[Lord_WC]

My apologies, you are correct and I was not clear enough in my response - the OP was about endgame. But there are still a number of posts talking about the 'minimum' HP totals as you level. My post was addressing those, and as such was as off topic as the posts I was responding to.

In my defence I did say in my post that I know nothing about end game and if you're gearing yourself toward that level of play then you need to listen to the folks telling you in absolute terms what will and will not cut it.

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound harsh/attacking, I just stated the fact.

Leveling is a whole different world. For just the purpose of leveling as fast as able (for a no-tr toon, where you can select the quests you want to run and will only have to run normal) hit 150 on 10 and 350 on 18 (as you will bank the remaining two levels to maximize runnable quests), the more the better, but you won't be able to run high-end raids and will grief your party if you want to run epics. So either you just lr at 20 or tr.

[vVAnjilaVv]

My drow rogue with 14 con had ~470 before TR.

Thats a D6 class, with no class HP enhancements, 2 racial HP enhancements, 1 toughness feat.

Wheres the sacrifice in feats and build points? Besides the Shroud HP item, every single gear item he has related to HP can be bought off the brokers in the market place - so there wasnt any huge amount of gear farming either.

Not insulting or ragging on you, but can u break down your HP total.

[vVAnjilaVv]

My drow rogue with 14 con had ~470 before TR.

Thats a D6 class, with no class HP enhancements, 2 racial HP enhancements, 1 toughness feat.

Wheres the sacrifice in feats and build points? Besides the Shroud HP item, every single gear item he has related to HP can be bought off the brokers in the market place - so there wasnt any huge amount of gear farming either.



Generally speaking if someone knows how to build they know how to play. If I have to hedge my bets, I would say someone with an epic SOS isnt an unskilled player. Can it happen? Yeah, i guess someone could pike a whole bunch of eVON content, totally suck, and come out of it with the weapon. I doubt that person would continue to get into that content if they kept dying due to low HP, and lack of play ability.

Just because someone knows how to follow a forum post build and ends up with the same amount of HP does not mean they are an experienced or skilled player. And with how kind guilds can be, I think it is very possible for someone not that great to end up with an ESoS out of guild kindness.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Yes, but you are forgetting the fact that this is no longer a subscriber only game, and not everyone buys Necro IV......Minos can no longer be considered standard gear IMO.

You can buy taps on the AH and trade them in if you can manage to get a guest pass.

However, not getting that only costs you 20hp, not make or break. WF also have the option of the IQ docent as an alternative to Minos toughness... and I think there is a third option but it escapes me atm...

[phalaeo]

My Cleric has standing 444HP, ferchissakes..... :rolleyes:

[Khanyth]

400-550, depending on class, situation, gear, and other stuff

There are other examples of less or more or why and why not.

But 400-550 is the answer you're looking for

[Spoprockel]

My drow rogue with 14 con had ~470 before TR.



That one made me curious. Are you still talking about unbuffed hp?

[Lord_WC]

You can buy taps on the AH and trade them in if you can manage to get a guest pass.

However, not getting that only costs you 20hp, not make or break. WF also have the option of the IQ docent as an alternative to Minos toughness... and I think there is a third option but it escapes me atm...

That's the dusk heart from sands.

[Spoprockel]

My drow rogue with 14 con had ~470 before TR.

Thats a D6 class, with no class HP enhancements, 2 racial HP enhancements, 1 toughness feat.

Wheres the sacrifice in feats and build points? Besides the Shroud HP item, every single gear item he has related to HP can be bought off the brokers in the market place - so there wasnt any huge amount of gear farming either.


Are you serious? My halfling Rogue has 14 starting con too, but i'm far, far from 470 standing hp:

20 heroic durability
120 Rogue
40 base con
60 +6 con item
22 toughness
20 racial toughness
20 minos
10 draconic vitality
30 GFL
45 shroud hp item

387 HP

20 with a +2 tome (cannot be bought off the brokers in the marketplace)

407 HP unbuffed


Unless someone points me to some awsome new marketplace brokers i'm gonna assume it was a typo and those ~470 are meant to be 407

[Kaldais]

Typical fighter at l20.

Starting con 14-16 + 6con item = 20-22 +2tome = 22-24

20 + 200(20 fighter) + 10(150 gianthold favor) + 23(toughness feat) + 30(GFL) + 120-140(con) + 20(Minos) + 40(fighter toughness) + 20-40(racial toughness)
= 473-513 HP

You should atleast have the above mentioned amount at login.

[Jiipster]

That's the dusk heart from sands.

Dusk Heart gives Improved False Life, not Toughness.

[Kabaon]

at level 20 (my wizzy is level 19 now) I will have about 360 hp as a drow wizard. About 400 in lich form. As it stands now though becuase of Lich form I am very tough to kill in all the quests I have run. Although I don't have Amrath, most of the other quests, survivability is heightend.

I wouldn't say all characters need to hit 400, but come close to it is fine.

[Nyvn]

Can you get by with less? Of course, but it often makes things harder than they need to be.

[TFPAQ]

Some good posts in here. A couple of comments about "end game".

Elites and Epics: definitely need the "higher" numbers bantered around.

Normal and Hard: 400 isn't the minimum.

There isn't much in the game that you can't handle in a good group with "moderate" HP. (Excludes some Elite and Epic Raid Content obviously).

Play what you like (but please play it well...)

[Hokonoso]

damage in epics is avoidable, a drow sorc with a 38-40 dc on his enchantment spells can have 260-340 hp and be fine cause he isnt getting hit AT ALL. for every slot you gear for hp, you are losing some other item you could put there. sure toughness feat/enhancements is standard, but gfl, con items or even heavy fort on a drow sorc is optional, you already are squishy, being more so doesnt change anything if you know how to play.

those that require 400-550 hp to just survive endgame make me laugh. unless you are a tank, you dont need that many hp!! even the blades in eDQ are avoidable, straight up avoidable!!!

with that said, all my tanks have 600ish unbuffed hp, my rogue/sorc 400ish and my healers 450ish, and all do epics without dying.

[quityourjobs]

Yes, but you are forgetting the fact that this is no longer a subscriber only game, and not everyone buys Necro IV......Minos can no longer be considered standard gear IMO.

You can buy tapestries from the AH, then get a guest pass and craft the helm.

[vVAnjilaVv]

You can buy tapestries from the AH, then get a guest pass and craft the helm.

YES....which removes them from the "ridiulously easy" category they used to belong to when the game was sub only.

[Iwinbyrollup]

More recently I've been leveling up a pally who I'm really enjoying playing (currently around 440 HP at level 17, should reach just over 500 with minimal additional effort). I'm used to playing a occ/healing spec cleric who has good HP (432) but doesn't melee so can get away with that much quite easily.

That said, I'm curious as to how people get their HP so high. And even more than on my cleric, I'm wondering how people boost their HP to around 600 unbuffed on a melee toon. More specifically, I was wondering if someone could break down the sources of 600+ HP on a d10 class? I've spent a decent amount of time looking at enhancements, feats, equipment, and I still don't see how people feasibly do this. It would be very informative and I haven't been able to find such information elsewhere.

[quityourjobs]

YES....which removes them from the "ridiulously easy" category they used to belong to when the game was sub only.

Still easier than a lot of raid drops any just about any epic item.

[Mercureal]

Didn't read the whole thread, so this may have been covered.

My level 20 melee character sits at 417 HP right now and is very survivable in all the quests I run. That may or may not be 'endgame', depending on your definition. I've run the House P epics, most of the Amrath quests (though not the raid yet), Inspired Quarter, and Vision of Destruction on elite. As long as I pay attention in combat and I do fine and survive as well as anyone else. My character does have evasion, and without that I'd probably want quite a few more HP; of course, that's fairly easy to get for most melee classes that don't have evasion.

I'd say that the 400 number is probably a good target to aim at. I ran some higher level quests when I was down around 350 HP, and there was a noticeable improvement in survivability when I started building it up to the current figure. It shouldn't be too difficult to achieve if you put in some work. A lot of my HPs come from gear:

- Minos Legens helm (+20)
- green steel cloak at tier 2 (25 hp)
- belt of greater false life (+30)
- +2 CON tome (+20)

Of those, the CON tome is probably the trickiest to get, since they're fairly rare and expensive to buy. I had to buy one for 125K platinum when I decided to begin boosting my HP - of course, shortly after that I got 2 of them as quest rewards so they do drop at higher levels.

[dkyle]

That said, I'm curious as to how people get their HP so high. And even more than on my cleric, I'm wondering how people boost their HP to around 600 unbuffed on a melee toon. More specifically, I was wondering if someone could break down the sources of 600+ HP on a d10 class?

Consider a Half-orc Fighter:

20 base
200 level 20 fighter
160 (CON 15 [base] +6 [item] +2 [tome] +3 [except])
22 Toughness
60 Toughness Enhancements
10 Draconic
30 GFL
20 Minos
45 Shroud
20 Rage spell
=587

Add a couple more Toughness feats (what else are you going to take on a Fighter), and you can easily exceed 600. Some Fighters take every non-class-feat as Toughness. Make a Dwarf or WF, and you can go even higher.

Incidentally, my Human Bard looks like this:

20 base
20 level 2 Fighter
18 Level 3 Rogue
90 Level 15 Bard
180 (CON 16 [base] +6 [item] +3 [tome] +2 [except] +1 [Human])
22 Toughness
40 Toughness Enhancements
10 Draconic
30 GFL
20 Minos
45 Shroud
20 Rage spell
=515

[sephiroth1084]

400 HP is kind of the minimum HP required for a melee at endgame. My rogue has 401 and is just above the cut-off for being too weak.

[Astraghal]

I think 400 HP minimum on any class in the game is a ridiculous suffocating number.....some of them yes.....but I do not think it should be the standard min for all race/class combinations.

This number basically forces lower HD characters to sacrifice build points or feats to reach this mark or forces a caster to be something other than a Drow or Elf.

Max starting casting stat leaves you with what, everything else into CON.......which means your walking around with an 8 STR which is also very suffocating.

Altho I agree that CON is never a dump stat, I simply feel the 400 mark for certain class/race combinations is too much.

I think the funny thing about this is I can walk around on my level 17 rogue who only has 300 HP atm unbuffed and survive someplace a higher HP build will die at because they think because they have more HP they don't have to pay attention as much.....was happening all day yesterday while I was doing Vale quests. I didn't die once, and just about everyone I partied with did, and it wasn't because they had less HP than me.

Let us know how that works out for you in Shavarath. :)

[thezosh]

I am trying to figure out if my melee fvs will be ok for epics ect, with 542 hp evashion and quickend 410 pt self heal or if i should go for a shroud item and 587 hp? the main consern being able to melee without haveing to heal every other second...

[Freeman]

Are you serious? My halfling Rogue has 14 starting con too, but i'm far, far from 470 standing hp:

20 heroic durability
120 Rogue
40 base con
60 +6 con item
22 toughness
20 racial toughness
20 minos
10 draconic vitality
30 GFL
45 shroud hp item

387 HP

20 with a +2 tome (cannot be bought off the brokers in the marketplace)

407 HP unbuffed


Unless someone points me to some awsome new marketplace brokers i'm gonna assume it was a typo and those ~470 are meant to be 407

Yeah, I'm curious how a drow rogue got to that amount as well. Your breakdown looks identical to my Halfling rogue, and I'm sitting just over 400HP as well. With both Evasion and a good rogue playstyle(Aggro bad), as well as a healthy dose of UMD, he is very survivable at end-game. That being said, I do think 400 is the cutoff for any melee. I only recently completed his HP item and reached level 20, and I noticed a huge difference in going from approximately 330hp at level 18 to 400 at level 20. Even though the quests got tougher, my survivability went way up with that boost.

I have a drow sorc, but I've just about given up playing him. No matter how much I try, I can't seem to reach a comfortable level of HP on him. I probably could if I got a lot better equipment, but the thought of the pain I would endure trying to get that is too overwhelming.

[NaturalHazard]

Didn't read the whole thread, so this may have been covered.

My level 20 melee character sits at 417 HP right now and is very survivable in all the quests I run. That may or may not be 'endgame', depending on your definition. I've run the House P epics, most of the Amrath quests (though not the raid yet), Inspired Quarter, and Vision of Destruction on elite. As long as I pay attention in combat and I do fine and survive as well as anyone else. My character does have evasion, and without that I'd probably want quite a few more HP; of course, that's fairly easy to get for most melee classes that don't have evasion.

I'd say that the 400 number is probably a good target to aim at. I ran some higher level quests when I was down around 350 HP, and there was a noticeable improvement in survivability when I started building it up to the current figure. It shouldn't be too difficult to achieve if you put in some work. A lot of my HPs come from gear:

- Minos Legens helm (+20)
- green steel cloak at tier 2 (25 hp)
- belt of greater false life (+30)
- +2 CON tome (+20)

Of those, the CON tome is probably the trickiest to get, since they're fairly rare and expensive to buy. I had to buy one for 125K platinum when I decided to begin boosting my HP - of course, shortly after that I got 2 of them as quest rewards so they do drop at higher levels.

Wow 125k plat? thats expensive? **** what server you playing on? wish i could buy some for that price?

[sirgog]

I am trying to figure out if my melee fvs will be ok for epics ect, with 542 hp evashion and quickend 410 pt self heal or if i should go for a shroud item and 587 hp? the main consern being able to melee without haveing to heal every other second...

542 is fine, but the extra 45 is a very good use of an item slot, especially when it comes with Earthgrab Guard, permanent Blur, Concordant Opposition or another ability that comes on Shroud gear. I ran all of the pre-nerf desert epics a lot with 537 standing on my pre-TR main, who was Clr18/Ftr2, and there was probably only two or three wipes that came about from me dying while main healing.

To-Hit will be your main concern. If you want to test your melee ability out, pick up an Improved Destruction weapon, go into Epic VON1, and try to solo Angog the Champion and his pack of trash using mostly melee. (Feel free to use an entire mana bar on healing, you'll probably need it - FvS melee builds lose quite a bit of DPS against extremely high AC targets like Angog, and he has a lot of HP).

[PurdueDave]

Just put 6+ build points into CON. Everything else is easily fixed if you find you don't have enough.

[Daggertooth]

High hit points is a crutch for sloppy play and is basically used as validation to do things that are beyond your level of skill. If you needed that many hit points, you were probably doing things that were well beyond your ability level.

The better you are, the less hit points you need.

[Taimasan]

nvm

[Irinis]

352 hp on my level 20 Spellsinger right now. If the healers (including me) are doing their part, I usually don't die. However I do find that because I'm not fully geared yet, it does take a little more effort to heal a group where one person is 350 hp and the rest are minimum of 450. You simply have to be healed more often just to stay up, and lose the benefit of most Heal spells. In pugs where the clerics rely on Mass Heal, I very often have to interrupt meleeing to cast a cure on myself in between. Epics... I can't even stand in a wall for the last fight of OOB. Instadeath! But eDQ2 is fine due to the constant spamming of heals. Hehe.

[FluffyCalico]

Yes, but you are forgetting the fact that this is no longer a subscriber only game, and not everyone buys Necro IV......Minos can no longer be considered standard gear IMO.

If you can't get someone to even get you a guess pass for the 2 min it takes to get minos quest turned ...

[FluffyCalico]

YES....which removes them from the "ridiulously easy" category they used to belong to when the game was sub only.

How is hit 11 go to AH for 1min then get a guest pass from friend and spend 2 min turning them in not "ridiulously easy"

[Alintalkin]

How is hit 11 go to AH for 1min then get a guest pass from friend and spend 2 min turning them in not "ridiulously easy"

Because most new players, on a new server are not going to be able to afford some of the inflated prices that TAPs can sell at lvl 11. How is someone's first character, who is new to the game and haven't yet mastered the AH to milk out every platium piece, going to get 20 TaPs for 125k+ (usually what I see taps at in AH). My two level 20's don't even usually have that much because I am trying to keep myself self-sufficient, and have my characters well geared. I never hit much over 200k an either of them until I sold a large shroud ingredient to someone (The funding going straight to getting other important gear). Not all new players are made out of money, and not all new players find enjoyment out of playing the AH game. They would much rather play DDO, not a fictional stock market.

That said I do own Necro IV and have minos on my chars. However neither of those characters had it at level 11 (though they each had heavy fort before then)

[FluffyCalico]

Because most new players, on a new server are not going to be able to afford some of the inflated prices that TAPs can sell at lvl 11.
This discussion was having hp at end game, level 11 was the requrement needed to get it not the level you have to get it at. Even on your first character if you can't afford a minos by the time you hit 20....
I mean seriously do 1 shroud and trade the large you get for the taps. If you pull a bone do a 2nd shroud.

As for still needing shroud gear...if you still need to make your basic shroud weapon and item then you aren't ready for endgame which again is what this thread is about.

[Aranticus]

Yeah but by endgame/level 20 I doubt I am going to have 400HP on that build either. The example I used above was more a way of saying just because you have a lot of HP it does not make u invincible, you still have to be a good quality player. This is the same at level 1 or at level 20 and anywhere in between.

and a poor player still needs hp to cushion the effect

regarding your build, unless you started with a low con, you can break 400 on a pure rogue

120 rogue
120 22 con (14+2+6)
20 heroic
10 draconic
22 toughness
20 racial
20 minos
30 GFL
-------
362 total
-------

a 45 hp shroud item will break the 400 mark, exceptional con and higher tomes can add around 20-40 hp for a total of 447 hp. unless you started with a very low con, most rogues can break 400

[Aranticus]

And like I said above, my OP was in regards to people who may not have 400 HP at endgame......it's not the end of the world.

I agree, that 400 HP can be achieved by any race/class by 20th, it's just does the builder want to sacrfice everything else they can have for it. For a race like a drow/elf going from 12 to 14 CON means losing 4 build points for 20 HP at level 20........that's a big hit especially for a 28pt build who may want/need build points somewhere else.

Monks and Rangers are melee's, depending on the build and race you make it's not always easy to hit 400 HP with them.

160 ranger
100 20 con (12+2+6)
20 heroic
10 draconic
20 minos
30 GFL
22 toughness
20 racial
-------
382
-------

not easy to hit 400?

from your posts so far, it seems that you have little experience in building or playing melees

[Quikster]

I gotta say i agree here. Having minos is basic gear, even with the subscription change. Having a +2 con tome, is also basic gear. Each of these can easily be afforded with a few shroud runs.

Since when did talking about end game include peoples first alts the first time around? Before they had even done a lot of the midgame content?

[Aranticus]

LMAO...u think the example I gave is the only character I have......I have done a few epics and some with less than 400HP toons and I held my own quite fine.

The only one that went disastrously was EPIC Last Stand, and my almost 400HP elven dark monk died the least amount of times out of everyone in the party.

All the HP in the world is not going to help and unskilled party or a party who does not have control of the situation, all high points are on some players is just a tiny additional delay to their inevitable death.

try doing a lot more epics on different toons, what you say will have more credibility and weight

[Aranticus]

Not insulting or ragging on you, but can u break down your HP total.

120 rogue
180 28 con
20 heroic
10 draconic
20 minos
30 GFL
45 shroud
22 toughness
20 racial
-------
467
-------

[Aranticus]

I gotta say i agree here. Having minos is basic gear, even with the subscription change. Having a +2 con tome, is also basic gear. Each of these can easily be afforded with a few shroud runs.

Since when did talking about end game include peoples first alts the first time around? Before they had even done a lot of the midgame content?

thats the problem with too many players these days. they think just by hitting L20 gives them the right to join any epic group they wish

[Spoprockel]

My drow rogue with 14 con had ~470 before TR.

Thats a D6 class, with no class HP enhancements, 2 racial HP enhancements, 1 toughness feat.

Wheres the sacrifice in feats and build points? Besides the Shroud HP item, every single gear item he has related to HP can be bought off the brokers in the market place - so there wasnt any huge amount of gear farming either.


This was the post she was questioning


120 rogue
180 28 con
20 heroic
10 draconic
20 minos
30 GFL
45 shroud
22 toughness
20 racial
-------
467
-------

How do i get to 28 con from 14 starting con? We are talking about unbuffed hp.

[Aranticus]

This was the post she was questioning



How do i get to 28 con from 14 starting con? We are talking about unbuffed hp.

he didnt mention anything about gear so its can be assumed that he could have amassed lots of good stuff

if you started with 14 con, with a +6 item = 20. with +3 exceptional, +4 tome, litany, you get 8 more con for a total of 28. thats unbuffed

edit: he didnt mention it was unbuffed. technically you could have rage spell and a yugo pot up quite easily

[Spoprockel]

Read it again. Hes stating everything you need can be bought off the marketplace vendors. No big grind except GS hp item.

edit: I understood this whole thread is about base hp -> unbuffed. i know you can get much higher with madstones and pots

[Resilian]

My level 14 FvS alt has 318 HP.

Minos, GFL, 1 Toughness feat, racial toughness 3

Knowing that some people can get to 20 and still be hovering at this amount or less is scary. =X

[Alintalkin]

This discussion was having hp at end game, level 11 was the requrement needed to get it not the level you have to get it at. Even on your first character if you can't afford a minos by the time you hit 20....
I mean seriously do 1 shroud and trade the large you get for the taps. If you pull a bone do a 2nd shroud.

As for still needing shroud gear...if you still need to make your basic shroud weapon and item then you aren't ready for endgame which again is what this thread is about.

Aye, I hear what you are saying but you specificially put level into your earlier post when you said

How is hit 11 go to AH for 1min then get a guest pass from friend and spend 2 min turning them in not "ridiulously easy"

It obviously brings the level 11 in there for the expected tlevel to get minos, hence why I talked about that. It is true that new people all should be able to get minos by level 20 (if of course someone is kind enough to get a guess pass for them which is not always the case). As for the shroud comment. I don't sell ingredients often (though yes I sell them if I do need money) is because it postpones actually making the shroud items and the longer that takes the longer it will be before I have a character very capable of endgame (In the epic sense of endgame anyway, Armath is easy enough currently though none of my chars have done ToD yet and won't until they get some shroud items). But yes, I do agree with you that this discussion is about endgame and I would say from all I have read on the forums it is much dependent on class. My guess would be:
d12 class: 600+
d10 classes: 550+
d8 classes: 500+
d6 class: 450+
d4 classes: 400+
For epics is expected for many people. There are others that take 50hp off of each of those as the expectation as opinion varies. Possibly take away 20 hp for elves and drow. You could take away more dependant on skills (not recommended though, as skills can't always win in a lag spike or if you are having an off day :p ). People also take off some for melee's with evasion and a high reflex save (after all no point in having evasion if you have a low one). Those seem to be the benchmarks from what I have read though.