Rogue Dilettante misses the mark

[Bernaise]

I'm disappointed that this splash doesn't include access to Open Locks. Obviously not at proficiency, but if a player had the skill points to spend they could probably be useful on casual/normal PuG runs. I don't believe this would negate the need for a "real" Rogue at all (this would be a lock picker, not a trap monkey).

[Ralmeth]

I was just thinking...if the Rogue feat just gave full access to UMD it would be really sweet! This would then give Half-Elf a real advantage at end-game.

[Darkrok]

That would be a much better rogue dilettante feat. I mean, fighter gives access to ALL martial weapons (and used to even give access to marital weapons as well (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3288862&postcount=6). Cleric gives access to raise dead scrolls for no skill point or AP cost. But some of the other ones are inherently weak. Rogue could be easily fixed by making it turn UMD into a class skill.

[sephiroth1084]

I was just thinking...if the Rogue feat just gave full access to UMD it would be really sweet! This would then give Half-Elf a real advantage at end-game.
Except that basically every half-elf ever would find a way to pick up the Rogue dilettante feat. For one, it rather overshadows the bonuses the caster versions provide after level 10 or so.

Access to all other rogue skills (Spot, Search, Disable, Open Lock) would have made this very interesting, I think, as it might have allowed for non-rogues who could deal with traps, finally allowing parties a little more flexibility in how they are composed for certain quests.

[Robi3.0]

Hmm.... I would pick DPS over being able to pick a lock any day, but to each his own I guess.

I think the rogue dilettante feat is fine and is especially tasty on a monk.

[sephiroth1084]

I think the rogue dilettante feat is fine and is especially tasty on a monk.
Does it stack with the SA from Ninja Spy?

And yes, the extra damage makes this one of the more attractive dilettante feats for any melee.

[Robi3.0]

Does it stack with the SA from Ninja Spy?

And yes, the extra damage makes this one of the more attractive dilettante feats for any melee.

I believe that Eladrin has written somewhere that it does. My helf monk is currently level 5. I will let you know for sure when I pick up ninja spy here soon.

[gurgar78]

I believe that Eladrin has written somewhere that it does. My helf monk is currently level 5. I will let you know for sure when I pick up ninja spy here soon.

Eladrin said it would stack. It only does not stack with Rogue sneak attack specifically.

[Xenus_Paradox]

Eladrin said it would stack. It only does not stack with Rogue sneak attack specifically.

Yeah, I started a thread asking point blank if it would stack. Eladrin confirmed that it would.

On another note, I really think Half-Elf would be competitive with other races if each Dilettante added a skill of your choice from the Dilettante class to your class list. So if you Dilettante into Rogue, you can get UMD or Open Lock or Disable Device as a class skill.

Insanely powerful? Yes. But Helf doesn't have much going for it ATM, unless you already have a ton of bonus feats (Monk, Wizard, Fighter) and wouldn't benefit very much from a racial stat bonus (Half-Orc or Dwarf tank, Drow pure Paladin, etc.) Giving free access to any skill would still not make them a no-brainer for any build.

[PopeJual]

Allowing Half Elves to put skill points into Rogue skills (cross class double point spending, but allowing up to full ranks to be bought) would be a great dilletant feat and I like the idea, but there is a problem in that you could take the Rogue racial feat, dump points into skills until you were satisfied and then visit Fred to take some other racial feat once you were satisfied with your skills.

I'm thinking that a Wizard that took the Rogue feat and then replaced it with the Cleric/FvS feat later on would be pretty cool, but also inappropriately strong in quests since they would essentially be a Wizard 18/Rogue 2 for skills, but a Wizard 20 for spells AND have Cleric wand/scroll use.

[thegreatneil]

As far as i know you can't replace Half-elf racial feats using Fred.

[Nyvn]

If they had multiple dilettantes for each class....

[Gadget2775]

As far as i know you can't replace Half-elf racial feats using Fred.

Known issue that they're working to fix

[Entelech]

That would be a much better rogue dilettante feat. I mean, fighter gives access to ALL martial weapons (and used to even give access to marital weapons as well (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3288862&postcount=6). Cleric gives access to raise dead scrolls for no skill point or AP cost. But some of the other ones are inherently weak. Rogue could be easily fixed by making it turn UMD into a class skill.

Not true about the Cleric one.

It gives unlimited access to Cleric wands, but with scrolls you still have to make a caster level check as though you were level 1. There's not a high chance of success.

What blows MY mind about Rogue Dilettante is that it does not grant Trapfinding (ability to spot/search traps and doors with DC above 20)

And, while we're at it, Ranger Dilettante is pretty weaksauce as well, especially given the current state of ranged combat.

[Bernaise]

I was just thinking...if the Rogue feat just gave full access to UMD it would be really sweet! This would then give Half-Elf a real advantage at end-game.

I would think this to be more appropriate for the Bard Dilettante feat. Certainly more appealing than a weaksauce fascinate

[shores11]

I'm disappointed that this splash doesn't include access to Open Locks. Obviously not at proficiency, but if a player had the skill points to spend they could probably be useful on casual/normal PuG runs. I don't believe this would negate the need for a "real" Rogue at all (this would be a lock picker, not a trap monkey).

/not signed

This suggestion is another attempt to change what D&D is. There are certain classes that were designed with certain abilities and the rogue's exclusive abilities are disable traps, open locks and backstabbing thats it. Now backstabbing has been added for other classes to take via equipment, ehancements and now feats.

I would be against any further changes that continued to nerf the rogue. The road that DDO is already headed in might just eventually make the rogue 100% not needed in this game. One could argue that they are already pretty much not needed as I can't think of to many quests where the party just jumps through the traps and leaves the rogue behind to disable just for XP. When the XP is not needed then in their minds whats the point of having a rogue.

DDO has altered D&D tremendously where in pen and paper you would be foolish to not have a rogue in your party to where now they are just an after thought.

[angelwblueeyes]

I would be against any further changes that continued to nerf the rogue. The road that DDO is already headed in might just eventually make the rogue 100% not needed in this game. One could argue that they are already pretty much not needed as I can't think of to many quests where the party just jumps through the traps and leaves the rogue behind to disable just for XP. When the XP is not needed then in their minds whats the point of having a rogue.

DDO has altered D&D tremendously where in pen and paper you would be foolish to not have a rogue in your party to where now they are just an after thought.

Unfortunately, I would agree. I have a 18 rogue, and I have a hard enough time trying to find a group that would want me. Rogues are super squishy and any DPS rogues that are around either don't have enough skill for traps or they just die way too fast, So nobody wants a rogue in their group they don't have to take. DPS rogues are becoming more common than trap monkey rogues now a days, and its mostly for the backstab, so I think turbine did right by letting others take advantage of that skill.

[azrael4h]

Unfortunately, I would agree. I have a 18 rogue, and I have a hard enough time trying to find a group that would want me. Rogues are super squishy and any DPS rogues that are around either don't have enough skill for traps or they just die way too fast, So nobody wants a rogue in their group they don't have to take. DPS rogues are becoming more common than trap monkey rogues now a days, and its mostly for the backstab, so I think turbine did right by letting others take advantage of that skill.

If a Rogue cannot afford 2 skill points per level to max out Disable Device and Search, then there is a problem with that player. They get what, 5 at the very least? There simply are not that many useful skills, and Rogues get more skill points than anyone else. A pure Rogue who did not invest 2 skill points to max search and disable is on par with a Rogue who did not invest 1 skill point into maxing UMD, and sneaks behind the party, never using anything but a shortbow the rare times they do deign to fight.

Squishy is a playing style, not a class or racial feature.

[Bernaise]

With respect to the last couple of posters, allowing for Open Locks on Dilettante is on par with a Knock Spell or Bell of Opening. Rogues are needed for Traps. There is nothing in game to negate the need for that. If Turbine were to randomize trap locations in dungeons as requested since forever, Rogues would get a much needed ego boost that they deserve.

As for the Dilettante Feats in regard to my original post, it more due to wanting to see enhancements that make more sense from a Role Play perspective than a Roll Play one.

[blametroi]

With respect to the last couple of posters, allowing for Open Locks on Dilettante is on par with a Knock Spell or Bell of Opening. Rogues are needed for Traps. There is nothing in game to negate the need for that. If Turbine were to randomize trap locations in dungeons as requested since forever, Rogues would get a much needed ego boost that they deserve.

It would also drive zergers crazy, which I think would be a good thing :) I am dismayed at the deterministic approach to play so many take.

[azrael4h]

It would also drive zergers crazy, which I think would be a good thing :) I am dismayed at the deterministic approach to play so many take.

Mostly, it would drive those who have memorized the trap locations in every quest they run insane. Again, a good thing, though I think there'll be much whining from the elitists who go for fastest completions.

[phalaeo]

I mean, fighter gives access to ALL martial weapons (and used to even give access to marital weapons as well (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3288862&postcount=6).

Marital weapons? Where do I sign up for those bad boys? How well do they work against Gaggro and Baggro? Can I dual-wield them?

[Zacheal]

Marital weapons? Where do I sign up for those bad boys? How well do they work against Gaggro and Baggro? Can I dual-wield them?

Sorry wife aggro only and they nerfed it so that it only deflects 1 nag per day. Everyone knows thats useless ;)

[Tarzhay]

It is interesting that they seem to insunuate that dilettantes of sorcerers and Favored souls are treated as level one sorcerers and Favored souls.
The key different is that you do not get the spell point doubling effect from the items.

[azrael4h]

It is interesting that they seem to insunuate that dilettantes of sorcerers and Favored souls are treated as level one sorcerers and Favored souls.
The key different is that you do not get the spell point doubling effect from the items.

You don't anyway, even if you take a single level of either class. It's a more complicated formula, with the extra sp multiplier being based on the percentage of Sorc/FvS levels in your build. A pure Sorc/FvS will get double sp from items. A Wiz19/Sorc1 will get something like 5% extra. I may be off on the number, it's late and I don't remember complex formulas (or simple ones.. or my name) when I've been up awhile.

It's a single level of a class for item usage. Meaning you can use any Arcane/Divine (respective to each class) Wand, and can make a caster check to use a scroll (with horrible chances of success, UMD is still superior here). I see Sorcerers taking FvS for easy access to wand whipping in the early levels, later they can get UMD high enough so as to not matter. Paladins can take Sorc for Stoneskin, Shield, and other useful wands. Monks can use the Cleric one, etc... The only ones that are almost universally useful are Rogue (+1d6 SA is handy no matter what) and Fighter (full martial proficiency? Yes please).