wf PM or arch

[Setin_Myways]

I have been told that taking PM as a wf is a waste and took that as fair answer, given in Undead form you lose self healing from the repair line. Last night I saw a wf pm in shroud that made me reconsider the option. I am wondering if others have come to this conclusion and if there is a build out there.

I had been planning on going Arch mage with this toon and now am wondering if it would be better to go Arch or pm? I think PM took time for the community to 'learn' and thus the opinion changed, but was just seeking some consensus on which is the 'better' path.

[rimble]

I have been told that taking PM as a wf is a waste and took that as fair answer, given in Undead form you lose self healing from the repair line. Last night I saw a wf pm in shroud that made me reconsider the option. I am wondering if others have come to this conclusion and if there is a build out there.

What about that WF last night made you reconsider? His Wail of the Banshee killing everything? As a Necromancy-focused Archmage you can do the same.

[gurgar78]

PM works for WF too. My WF is a Palemaster. After they released info regarding AM, I've never considered it. PM is the way to go for all-around survival and wizardly goodness. You lose the repair line of spells, but self-healing in undead form is not an issue. I would say that Quicken becomes essential though as Neg Energy Burst has a fairly long cast time and interruptions at inopportune moments will definitely screw you over hard. Quicken alleviates both of these problems.

I will admit that I did have to turn off undead form briefly last night. 3-manning Enter the Kobold, the damage from multiple fire elementals and living DBF was too much. After I picked up ooze puppet for the living DBF, it was fine again.

[bashemgud]

Requiro summed it up pretty good in this thread:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=281104&page=2

In summary:

DC:
Necro: PM 44 vs AM 42 --> PM win
Ench: PM 43 vs AM 43 --> Draw
Rest: PM 39 vs AM 38 --> PM win

What about anything else? Let’s see:

PM:
100% Fortification
60 HP
2 Fortification save (+2 Con)
1 Will save (+1 Wis)
Undead Immunes
Self-Heal
More damage from Negative Spells (+45%, 9% critics)
Familar…. Uhm.. I mean Undead summons
Edit: Necrotics SL-a (Touch, Bolt, Blast)
Edit: 10% Chance to get 30 more HP.
(-)100SP for Lich form
Cost: 3 feats, 10 AP PrE + Prereq 18 AP (+3/6/9 AP for Familiar)

AM:
225 SP (400 SP – 175 SP for +2 DC Ench + 1 Necro) and no SL-a
or
200 SP and Tier1 SL-a
or
variant SP (from (–) 450 SP to (+) 200SP) and variant SL-a (from 1 SL-a to 10 SL-a)
Cost: 4 feat, 11 AP PrE + Prereq 26 AP (+1 - 10 AP for SL-a)

My choice is clear: Pale Master.

If you get AM PrE, it's for the extra SP, which is total bs. Also, WF PM is more than a viable option. The aura is more than enough to keep any half-decent wizard fully healed at all time. When in real trouble, toggle undead form off, repair yourself.
It's not because you can be undead that you ABSOLUTELY NEED to be one. I use the lich form when I can actually instakill the mobs, no point if you're fighting undead for example. In this case it's more about wraith + displacement+ FW + GS Greataxe ^^

I guess AM isn't too bad if you don't get any sl-a...

[rimble]

DC:
Necro: PM 44 vs AM 42 --> PM win
Ench: PM 43 vs AM 43 --> Draw
Rest: PM 39 vs AM 38 --> PM win

I still don't follow that. First, not to be unfair towards the PM, but I don't chug Yugo potions, so not gonna count that. Again, not trying to be unfair, just taking my personal playstyle into consideration:

Necro: PM (+1 Int, +1 PM II) vs AM (+1 Spell Mastery I, +1 Spell Mastery II)
Ench: PM (+1 Int) vs AM (+1 Secondary Spell Mastery I)
Other: PM (+1 Int) vs AM (+0)

So without Yugo pots PM is +1 DC on 'Other' spells. Then of course there are all the other PM Undead goodies vs AM SLAs to consider for yourself.

[gurgar78]

I still don't follow that. First, not to be unfair towards the PM, but I don't chug Yugo potions, so not gonna count that. Again, not trying to be unfair, just taking my personal playstyle into consideration:

Necro: PM (+1 Int, +1 PM II) vs AM (+1 Spell Mastery I, +1 Spell Mastery II)
Ench: PM (+1 Int) vs AM (+1 Secondary Spell Mastery I)
Other: PM (+1 Int) vs AM (+0)

So without Yugo pots PM is +1 DC on 'Other' spells. Then of course there are all the other PM Undead goodies vs AM SLAs to consider for yourself.

The post example assumes a Yugo chugging PM (Because a PM can, with no penalty, if they retain even a moderate fort item) and an Enchantment spec'd Archmage (Because, let's be honest... if you were going to spec Necro, why on earth would you not just do Palemaster?)

That is why DC on Nec spells is two higher. DC of enchantment spells is equal and wait... this actually isn't quite right either because he's giving the AM secondary bonus to all schools instead of just one secondary school.

In any non-spec school, the PM would be 2 higher than the archmage due to int boosts from Lich and Yugo pots.

Anyway, it becomes a little more cluttered depending on which schools the archmage takes, but the point is that a Palemaster can attain an equal DC, even in the AM's primary school, with no drawback. The AM will have to suffer a 50% fort penalty in order to go ahead again (And this only by 1 DC)

Of course, most people, like myself, wont use a Yugo pot anyway, so they'll wind up being 1 DC behind the Archmage in the primary school (Unless nec, then they'll be equal), and equal or better in all other schools.

PM still seems more advantageous. The only time AM would be more beneficial is if you are speaking specifically about epics and an enchantment spec'd archmage.

[Jaid314]

The post example assumes a Yugo chugging PM (Because a PM can, with no penalty, if they retain even a moderate fort item) and an Enchantment spec'd Archmage (Because, let's be honest... if you were going to spec Necro, why on earth would you not just do Palemaster?)

That is why DC on Nec spells is two higher. DC of enchantment spells is equal and wait... this actually isn't quite right either because he's giving the AM secondary bonus to all schools instead of just one secondary school.

In any non-spec school, the PM would be 2 higher than the archmage due to int boosts from Lich and Yugo pots.

Anyway, it becomes a little more cluttered depending on which schools the archmage takes, but the point is that a Palemaster can attain an equal DC, even in the AM's primary school, with no drawback. The AM will have to suffer a 50% fort penalty in order to go ahead again (And this only by 1 DC)

Of course, most people, like myself, wont use a Yugo pot anyway, so they'll wind up being 1 DC behind the Archmage in the primary school (Unless nec, then they'll be equal), and equal or better in all other schools.

PM still seems more advantageous. The only time AM would be more beneficial is if you are speaking specifically about epics and an enchantment spec'd archmage.

archmage can also be better in terms of total spell points (if you don't buy much with it) or spell-like abilities (if you do)

(note the OR, while you can do both it's not likely to be by much. then again, even 25 SP = 25 level 1 spell-like abilities with as much metamagic as you can cram into it...)

so basically, if you're looking at the spell-likes and drooling or you're constantly running out of mana, archmage may be the prestige enhancement of choice for you. also if you just don't care about your necromancy DC at all and would rather not be necromancy spec'd even if it does give you a great deal of toughness.

(also, another side note: warforged pale masters still get the +2 con for being a warforged as well as the constitution and racial toughness enhancements, still get WF paralysis immunity - which is a pretty big deal - and can still self-heal even when not in lich form. some of the advantages of warforged are lost, but not all by any means)

[NoidRoid]

You're leaving out the new Rahkir's set bonus of near permanent +2 caster level for archmage V. That's second hand knowledge from a guildy btw, still looking for more information on this set bonus because unfortunately ToD has not been kind to me :(

I am of the opinion that a well geared epic caster shouldn't care about 40+ necro DCs which is part of the reason I prefer AM. I'm also of the opinion that exploiting the SALs from archmage is more important than extra SP, in fact I am currently enjoying a build focused on just that: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=281875

You really can't quantify the value of spamming webs and hypnos all day. I think the DCs of AM compare favorably with PM due to the new Rahkir's set bonus, especially enchantment which is far and away the most important one in epics. Extra SP, no need for icky necro feats, and more reliable self healing are nice perks as well.

I personally have no desire to wail in ToD, it's impressive but doesn't really accomplish much in terms of completing the raid. A sufficient necro DC for clearing portals in shroud is all I really care about in end game and any well geared capped wizard can do that without spell focus. In my thread I recommended taking sf: necro for easier leveling then swapping to enchantment at cap. That would suggest that PM is better for leveling a toon and I may just go that route on my next TR then convert to AM at cap for better performance in epics.

[rimble]

I think the DCs of AM compare favorably with PM due to the new Rahkir's set bonus, especially enchantment which is far and away the most important one in epics.

Caster level doesn't have any bearing on DCs.

Been thinking about it a lot today, and gotta agree with others. PM does seem much more juicy.

[NoidRoid]

Caster level doesn't have any bearing on DCs.

In what sense? Your DCs go up 1 from level 1-20, why wouldn't they from 20-22? From what I understand that's the benefit of Epic Staff of Arcane Power, not just 4:24 hastes.

After reading the Rahkir's set bonus I see no reason why it wouldn't increase all DCs and spell penn by 2 when activated.

I'm tired of wondering, Imma make a thread right now to see if anyone has definitive info on the subject.

[rimble]

In what sense? Your DCs go up 1 from level 1-20, why wouldn't they from 20-22? From what I understand that's the benefit of Epic Staff of Arcane Power, not just 4:24 hastes.

After reading the Rahkir's set bonus I see no reason why it wouldn't increase all DCs and spell penn by 2 when activated.

I'm tired of wondering, Imma make a thread right now to see if anyone has definitive info on the subject.

No thread is necessary. Caster Level is not involved in the DC calculation, regardless of its source.

10 + Spell Level + Int Modifier + Items + Feats + Enhancements (from AM or PM)

[NoidRoid]

You're right, I was confusing it with Spell Penn calculations. Thanks.

In that case PMs +4 INT capabilities are not negated by Rahkirs and it pulls ahead in everything but the primary spell school. And of course drinking INT yugo pots is not recommended on an archmage :)

[Setin_Myways]

What about that WF last night made you reconsider? His Wail of the Banshee killing everything? As a Necromancy-focused Archmage you can do the same.
it was his death aura healing him 50+ a tick + necrotic rays ...

but thanks all for the info - it looks like i will have an undead robot soon :}

[rimble]

it was his death aura healing him 50+ a tick + necrotic rays ...

but thanks all for the info - it looks like i will have an undead robot soon :}

I don't blame ya. Like I said above, I've been looking it over alot today...and yeah...I think my Archmage plans have come to an end...think my guy is 11 Wiz / 2 Rog now...think I'm robot PM-bound now as well.

[gurgar78]

Since the fix to the PM damage enhancements, Necrotic Ray has become my go-to damage spell for anything that I'm fairly certain I will pass the SR check on.

That is the drawback to Necrotic Ray. Due the level drain effect attached to the spell, is has to pass an SR check before it has any effect at all.

[Khellendros13]

I am pretty **** happy with 1sp Hypno, 3sp Dance and Web.

3sp Web is crazy. Only thing that works as reliable CC in Amrath for me.

The only thin I lost was the metamagic enhancements, and I am back at 2175sp, same as before Archmage, but now I can spam web and hypno.

Yea I like Archmage a lot :)

[NoidRoid]

I don't like the idea of 3sp ottos as I'm mostly using it against casters with a high will save. It's generally a race to get to them before they do something nasty to the party so I don't wanna mess around missing with resistable dance before landing the irresistable one.

Hynos and Webs are awesome though, love em.