Zen Archery and Air stance

[talyor]

Now that the feat Zen Archery allows a monk to use bows as a KI weapon can we also get the speed boost from air stance that is applied to KI weapons. All other Monk KI weapons get the increased attack speed from air stance. If i can swing faster and throw faster i should be able to draw and fire faster too!

[Sydril]

I just tested it out with a level 4 elven monk.

Stances DO work with zen archery bow use

but air stance appears to have no affect on bow attack speed.

[Legohaiden]

I just tested it out with a level 4 elven monk.

Stances DO work with zen archery bow use

but air stance appears to have no affect on bow attack speed.



and it shouldnt.

as an Archery Enthusiast, i have a 6ft longbow and 34'' cedar arrows. Regardless of how fast you can grab an arrow, and nock it... you still have to pull and more importantly Aim. Firing arrows quickly and blindly isnt very effective unless facing a huge crowd.

[oweieie]

and it shouldnt.

as an Archery Enthusiast, i have a 6ft longbow and 34'' cedar arrows. Regardless of how fast you can grab an arrow, and nock it... you still have to pull and more importantly Aim. Firing arrows quickly and blindly isnt very effective unless facing a huge crowd.

Which is no different than melee.

[Legohaiden]

Which is no different than melee.

actually archery is ALOT different then melee


Melee attacks can flow, and one attack can blend into another, and another, like martial arts does. block, kick, punch, throw all in one smooth quick action


with a bow... its the same motion each time. Draw, nock, pull, aim, fire.

you cant "flow" into another shot.

[articwarrior]

would be awesome though.... imagine 18 clr 2 monk with AA (elf), omg would be game breaking and everyone would play that one build.

[Alabore]

with a bow... its the same motion each time. Draw, nock, pull, aim, fire.

Well, we could argue that higher BAB already results in higher RoF.
So, monk stance could improve ROF too.

...

Also, practice makes perfect: an archer character in a fantasy game could, conceivably become faster with the drawing, nocking, pulling and firing motions.
It is called Zen archery after all, aiming would part of the whole routine.

...

Higher RoF with Zen Archery, and Wind stance, doesn't sound too unbalancing or unrealistic.

:)

[Modinator0]

I actually think water stance should be used for archery... it desperately needs a purpose, and zen archery uses wisdom in place of dex, soooo :D

[Alabore]

I actually think water stance should be used for archery... it desperately needs a purpose, and zen archery uses wisdom in place of dex, soooo :D

^
Makes sense too.

...

Archery is usually thematically tied with Air, not Water.
But, mechanics-wise, it's sound.

[Modinator0]

^
Makes sense too.

...

Archery is usually thematically tied with Air, not Water.
But, mechanics-wise, it's sound.

It can make sense thematically as well, the calming water allows you to block out distractions, and in this tranquil state your mind can more readily identify and focus on a target.

[Faerbaste]

and it shouldnt.

as an Archery Enthusiast, i have a 6ft longbow and 34'' cedar arrows. Regardless of how fast you can grab an arrow, and nock it... you still have to pull and more importantly Aim. Firing arrows quickly and blindly isnt very effective unless facing a huge crowd.

Sooooo, using your logic, the justification for the "many-shot" ability where several arrows are fired at once is......?

[Modinator0]

Sooooo, using your logic, the justification for the "many-shot" ability where several arrows are fired at once is......?

a wizard did it. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt)

[zztophat]

Sooooo, using your logic, the justification for the "many-shot" ability where several arrows are fired at once is......?

You can fire multiple arrows at once in real life.

But it can break your bow.

[Alabore]

It can make sense thematically as well, the calming water allows you to block out distractions, and in this tranquil state your mind can more readily identify and focus on a target.

Good point.
Also, we could argue that an archer monk could - situationally - have a use for both: air stance for higher RoF, water stance for better placement of shots.

:)

...

Since they tweaked Tempest I down, I feel less compelled to front load my exploiters with Tempest feats, so they qualify for it as soon as possible.
Maybe using those feats for making non-monk weapons, Ki-friendly a bit earlier, could be viable under U7.

Thoughts?

[Faerbaste]

You can fire multiple arrows at once in real life.

But it can break your bow.

Ahhh, but u can fire really fast in rl too, but just not hit anything, lol.

[Aesop]

Remember that we are discussing Apex Heroic Fantasy combatants not Real Life.

Real Life has about as much use in this discussion as using apples to help describe tubas.


The more pertinent points are game balance and fun


I am glad Zen Archery has been made to allow Monk Archers... and I would be glad to see the stances grant their benefits... and I would be even more happy if the strikes would work with ranged/thrown attacks... even if they made it a feat.


Aesop

[Faerbaste]

Remember that we are discussing Apex Heroic Fantasy combatants not Real Life.

Real Life has about as much use in this discussion as using apples to help describe tubas.


The more pertinent points are game balance and fun


I am glad Zen Archery has been made to allow Monk Archers... and I would be glad to see the stances grant their benefits... and I would be even more happy if the strikes would work with ranged/thrown attacks... even if they made it a feat.


Aesop

I agree, real life should not be taken as the standard upon which DDO fantasy combat should be based, otherwise a very large number of other combat things in the game would also have to be questioned as well.

The OP thinks that the speed boost given to other Ki weapons should also be given to Zen Archery and I agree that comparing Zen Archery to real life archery is not a good arguement against such a boost.

Now, the question as to whether such a speed boost would unbalance the game is a totally different matter for discussion.

[merkovah]

Um ...

You really can't use _anything_ from real life as comparison for a fantasy game world.

It's why it's a 'fantasy' world.

[Modinator0]

Um ...

You really can't use _anything_ from real life as comparison for a fantasy game world.

It's why it's a 'fantasy' world.

Naaaah, I fish for wall of fire crits IRL

[DustTheWind]

would be awesome though.... imagine 18 clr 2 monk with AA (elf), omg would be game breaking and everyone would play that one build.

Uh... how in the world would it be over powered. Ranged rate of fire sucks as it is atm. What is wind stance going to do that would make that much better?

Although I have to admit it would be nice if it worked. I find it funny ddo went through all the trouble to make zen archery and wind stance doesn't even effect the rate of fire for a bow. lawl hilarious really. Why did they go thought all that trouble in the first place?

[Rian]

Ya know...I was excited for Zen Archery, ya know, opening new possible aspects to archery.
I've played a ranger since Module 2, not update 2, module 2 (Guess what race? :D). When you think about it, Air stance should increase RoF, I mean afterall, the capstone and ToD set do :) I was a little disappointed though when you couldn't use your 5 basic ki attacks (Fire, water, air, earth, light/dark), got my hopes to high which was my fault. But IMHO its pretty much a wasted feat unless they tweak it a little more :\ Arcane archer monks could almost be cool :P

Ki imbued arrows please? :D

[krud]

while they are at it, they should allow wisdom as a prereq for imp precise shot, if you have the Zen Archery feat.

[Entelech]

While we're at it, I'd love to see the Smiting Spell metamagic feat implemented in DDO.

An Arcane Archer binding Command Undead to an arrow is just too cool for words.

[Gauthaag]

Imho they just should make 1000 stars air special attack work for bows. in the end it will work similar like manyshot

[Rian]

Imho they just should make 1000 stars air special attack work for bows. in the end it will work similar like manyshot

I have not had the chance to play with that, but I doubt it could ever keep up with a ranger's many shot

[Gauthaag]

surely its not as fast as manyshot. it wont fire several missiles just improves rate of fire for a short time. i just suppose that the increased RoF for ki bows should be made same way as manzshot, ie special attack with cooldown. There is no reason for monks to be as fast with bows as masters of archery - rangers.

[Aesop]

They should make Shuriken fire 3 at a time anyway.

[Kaldais]

They should make Shuriken fire 3 at a time anyway.

They should make Ninja spies III be able to throw 8 shurikens at the same time.

[Aesop]

They should make Ninja spies III be able to throw 8 shurikens at the same time.

how about +1 shuriken per tier