Horc Staff Master

[OldAquarian]

Horc: 13 Rogue/6 Fighter/1Monk

Acrobat II/Kensei I

(Considered Monk 6 instead of Fighter but really, really didn't want that much monk)

All level ups in STR

any comments appreciated

(swapped out Dragon Marks as they were a waste - better thrown damage now)

As far as skills go:

Didn't actually lay it out - but obviously
1 pt Tumble - Thats all you need
Max: UMD,DD,Search,Jump
only Some Balance (remember you will get fall immunity so not too much),
Some Spot, (more if you don't know where the boxes are) - seeing hiding enemies has value
Some Open Lock - don't need this maxed
Some Hide
Some Move Silently
Depending on your playstyle/tank throw in Bluff, Diplomacy
And then there is always Haggle
Possible Concentration if you want to use finishers, but not needed

You get alot of points, so its easy to catch skills up, during the last levels that are all rogue
Rogue levels are 9 each, so there is a lot of freedom here, but , if you want and have access, a +2 INT tome at 7 gives you 1 more per level


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.7.0 BETA
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

beatstick
Level 20 Lawful Neutral Half-Orc Male
(6 Fighter \ 1 Monk \ 13 Rogue)
Hit Points: 258
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 13
Reflex: 14
Will: 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 20 28
Dexterity 12 15
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 12 12
Wisdom 8 8
Charisma 6 6

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Rogue)


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Brutal Throw
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Quick Draw
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow


Level 7 (Fighter)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 11 (Rogue)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 13 (Rogue)


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Resilience


Level 19 (Rogue)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Kensei Quarterstaff Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Orcish Fury I
Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack I
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack II
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack III
Enhancement: Orcish Strength I
Enhancement: Orcish Strength II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Enhancement: Improved Balance I
Enhancement: Improved Balance II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II

[elgranmago13]

The only change I would see as a must would be to swap out your 2nd rogue feat to opportunist (grants doublestrike chance). Maybe your first too if DPS matters most to you.
Taking fighter earlier could get you stunning blow earlier, which is fun (tho not necessary) at lower levels.
Brutal Throw? It's your call, but I thought thrown damamge was based on STR already, so you'd just be gaining to-hit... which you probably won't need.

[OldAquarian]

The only change I would see as a must would be to swap out your 2nd rogue feat to opportunist (grants doublestrike chance). Maybe your first too if DPS matters most to you.
Taking fighter earlier could get you stunning blow earlier, which is fun (tho not necessary) at lower levels.
Brutal Throw? It's your call, but I thought thrown damamge was based on STR already, so you'd just be gaining to-hit... which you probably won't need.

Didn't think doublestrike works with qstaff, thought it was only TWF

[elgranmago13]

Doublestrike from Eladrin:
"A character with a double strike chance has a chance to make an additional attack roll with their main hand weapon any time they make a main hand attack, on the target of the first attack. (Note that two handed weapons count as “in the main hand” for these purposes.)"

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=251248&highlight=doublestrike

[XL_Jockey]

I saw another Qstaff build where someone mentioned taking TWF feats as well as THF feats. Do both work with Qstaff? If so, is there an advantage from one over the other?

[unbongwah]

Lemme guess: you chose WF in the builder? I think you forgot about the -2 INT penalty for HOs; your build is 36 pts if I'm adding right.

If you don't care about AC, what about rogue 13 / barb 6 / ftr 1? Effectively you only lose 1 feat (since 2 of your 4 ftr feats go towards WF/WS); and you'd gain extra HPs, skill pts, PA enhs, moar Rage, etc. Could even dump-stat INT for max STR; dunno how important skills are to this build tho. Plus I just kinda like the idea of Ragin' Acrobat stick wielder. :D

[prayvios]

Lemme guess: you chose WF in the builder? I think you forgot about the -2 INT penalty for HOs; your build is 36 pts if I'm adding right.

If you don't care about AC, what about rogue 13 / barb 6 / ftr 1? Effectively you only lose 1 feat (since 2 of your 4 ftr feats go towards WF/WS); and you'd gain extra HPs, skill pts, PA enhs, moar Rage, etc. Could even dump-stat INT for max STR; dunno how important skills are to this build tho. Plus I just kinda like the idea of Ragin' Acrobat stick wielder. :D

he is choosing Orc if you look at the top it shows HORC and why get the 6barb when you want the extra feats to be able to get the ones you need? (not tryin to be rude or anything just askin.)

[unbongwah]

Builder hasn't been updated yet with HOs (or HEs); so he fudged it either by picking a different race or manually editing the config files himself. Either way, I don't think he included the -2 INT penalty.

For this build I'd say the critical feats are Toughness, PA, THF x 3, and Imp Crit Bludgeon. That's doable as rogue 13 / barb 6 / ftr 1, with 2 feats left over (e.g., Stunning Blow & Cleave for FB). I don't know if it's better from a DPS or anything else perspective, just proposing it as an alternative.

[voodoogroves]

Did you consider Rogue 13 / Barb 7?

good enhancements on barb 7

[OldAquarian]

Builder hasn't been updated yet with HOs (or HEs); so he fudged it either by picking a different race or manually editing the config files himself. Either way, I don't think he included the -2 INT penalty.

I picked Dwarf - Used a +2 STR tome at level 1, and then backed INT up 2 - what I forgot was the +2 CON

Anyway, I thought about Barb but was concerned about being feat starved
Will think about more barb again

Also thought it would be a waste to have so much rogue but not trap skills, also thought it would be fun to have a Giant Half Orc put down his Massive Weapon,walk up to the trap and say, "I got this"

[kernal42]

Also thought it would be a waste to have so much rogue but not trap skills, also thought it would be fun to have a Giant Half Orc put down his Massive Weapon,walk up to the trap and say, "I got this"

Even better: "Int rune? I got this."

[unbongwah]

I picked Dwarf
Figured it was dwarf or WF based on the CHA 6; had a 50/50 chance and guessed wrong. Typical... :p

Anyway, maybe base stats 20 / 12 / 14 / 12 / 8 / 6? I think that adds up to 32 pts.

Anyway, I thought about Barb but was concerned about being feat starved
I believe Brutal Throw and Quick Draw are all you have to give up going rogue 13 / barb 6 / ftr 1. Going barb 6 will also let you take Orcish Power Rage II for additional +2 STR when Raging.

[kernal42]

Are there any compatability issues between rogue and barb? Like, can you not disable traps while raged? I know you can't UMD heal scrolls, etc, while raged, which is certainly a penalty...

-Kernal

[unbongwah]

You can't use Search or Disable while Raged, IIRC, so that's definitely an issue for a barbarian trapmonkey.

[OldAquarian]

You can't use Search or Disable while Raged, IIRC, so that's definitely an issue for a barbarian trapmonkey.

Think that kinda rules out barb - think I'll swap that to Monk and rearrage levels to get feats earlier (but delays the first PrE a bit)

So 13 rogue/6 Fighter/1 monk - updated in OP
Using the suggested stats: 20 / 12 / 14 / 12 / 8 / 6

Looks pretty cool

[OldAquarian]

More complete (unfudged) build now that U7 Planner is out

[AcesWylde]

I had started a similar build, but decided to drop the dragonmarks for cleave/great cleave/extra toughness when I read that 'diploing' the chest was charisma based.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.7.0 BETA
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Zakyll de Tharashk
Level 20 Lawful Neutral Half-Orc Male
(6 Fighter \ 1 Monk \ 13 Rogue)
Hit Points: 290
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 13
Reflex: 16
Will: 10

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 17 26
Dexterity 15 18
Constitution 14 14
Intelligence 10 10
Wisdom 14 14
Charisma 6 6

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 6 20
Bluff -2 -1
Concentration 2 3
Diplomacy -2 -1
Disable Device 4 22
Haggle 2 8
Heal 2 2
Hide 2 4
Intimidate -2 -1
Jump 3 26
Listen 2 2
Move Silently 2 4
Open Lock 6 14
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 0
Search 4 22
Spot 6 24
Swim 3 8
Tumble 6 20
Use Magic Device 2 20

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 3 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 4 (Rogue)


Level 5 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow


Level 6 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave


Level 7 (Rogue)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 9 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 10 (Rogue)


Level 11 (Fighter)


Level 12 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 13 (Rogue)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist


Level 16 (Rogue)


Level 17 (Fighter)


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 19 (Rogue)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Crippling Strike


Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Great Cleave
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost II
Enhancement: Kensei Quarterstaff Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II
Enhancement: Orc Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Orcish Strength I
Enhancement: Orcish Strength II
Enhancement: Orcish Great Weapon Aptitude I
Enhancement: Orcish Great Weapon Aptitude II
Enhancement: Orcish Great Weapon Aptitude III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Improved Balance I
Enhancement: Improved Balance II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense I
Enhancement: Rogue Improved Trap Sense II





out of curiosity, why take monk with no wisdom?

[elujin]

its mostly just for the stances +2 str or windstance for speed

i got a wf version of this tactics make up for the lower str

i would take more thougness over the marks becous this build pulls aggro but i understand you want the marks and its minor i guess
the rest is the same and a fun build :)

i guess i don't have the biggest stick around anymore t_T

[OldAquarian]

To be honest - the marks so far are lackluster - but it's just out - if they don't buff them - I will remove them from this build - will put a note in OP warning about this

[Hamlin]

You can't use Search or Disable while Raged, IIRC, so that's definitely an issue for a barbarian trapmonkey.

This is true, however Barbarians have had the ability for quite a while to Dismiss Rage (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Feat:Dismiss_Rage). On the rare occasion where you have to disarm a trap or open a lock while you're still raging, you can end it whenever you want.

[unbongwah]

I know, but since you only get so many Rages per rest (EDIT: esp. on a build with only barb 6), you don't want to use them up by flipping Rage on and off every time you need to pick a lock or disable a trap. Fortunately, that's rarely if ever necessary, especially once you know where the traps are.

[OldAquarian]

This is true, however Barbarians have had the ability for quite a while to Dismiss Rage (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Feat:Dismiss_Rage). On the rare occasion where you have to disarm a trap or open a lock while you're still raging, you can end it whenever you want.

Yes, this is true, but it means that you will generally not have Rage available as you blow a use everytime you dismiss
Base number of rages:1 at level 1, 2 at level 4, and then 1 every 4 levels, so for splashes that is only 1 or 2 rages
From Enhancements: At level 2 you can get 1 extra rage, at level 6 you get another, and another at level 10
So with enhancements:
Level 1 - 1 Rage
Level 2 - 2 Rages (1 AP total)
Level 4 - 3 Rages
Level 6 - 4 Rages (3 AP total)
Level 8 - 5 Rages
Level 10 - 6 Rages (6 AP total)

So splashing 1 level and having to dismiss is painful
At level 6, you still only have 4 Rages and if you have to Dismiss, most of the time you won't be Raged

[elujin]

i think fighter 6 kensai is way better then barb it gives +1 to stuns an extra boost (wich is nice cous hast boost and showtime are to few for a acrobat (they should boost that in the pre or make them regen)

also it opens 2 stun enchantments for 6 ap i think so from a stunning point of view fighter is better and with the weapon specialisation dmg is a bit less but perm

but i guess you already came to that conclusion looking at your build :)

[unbongwah]

Raging HO barb 6 can hit STR +4 base + 2 barb Power Rage enhs + 2 HO Power Rage enhs +2 Frenzy = +10 STR which means +5 to all DCs while Hulked out. The downside is you have at most 4 Rages per rest which don't last super-long.

[kernal42]

i think fighter 6 kensai is way better then barb it gives +1 to stuns an extra boost (wich is nice cous hast boost and showtime are to few for a acrobat (they should boost that in the pre or make them regen)

also it opens 2 stun enchantments for 6 ap i think so from a stunning point of view fighter is better and with the weapon specialisation dmg is a bit less but perm

but i guess you already came to that conclusion looking at your build :)

If stunning blow is the comparison:
Fighter: +1 from str (enhancements) +2 str (sun stance) +1 kensai, +2 fighter tactics enh = +5 DC
Barb: +4 from str (rage) +1 from str (frenzy) +1 fighter tactics enh = +6 DC

So from a strict Stunning Blow comparison, the rogue/barb/fighter build beats the rogue/fighter/monk build.

-Kernal

[OldAquarian]

If stunning blow is the comparison:
Fighter: +1 from str (enhancements) +2 str (sun stance) +1 kensai, +2 fighter tactics enh = +5 DC
Barb: +4 from str (rage) +1 from str (frenzy) +1 fighter tactics enh = +6 DC

So from a strict Stunning Blow comparison, the rogue/barb/fighter build beats the rogue/fighter/monk build.

-Kernal

In my mind: +5 all the time beats +6 sometimes and +1 most of the time.

And thats what the choice is about.
GOOD always vs BETTER sometimes, WORSE most of the time.
The fact that using trapskills forces you into the WORSE bucket more often was the clincher for me.

But, I said choice because the differences are minor enough for preference to outweigh min/max. It's not a competition, these are options.

[kernal42]

In my mind: +5 all the time beats +6 sometimes and +1 most of the time.

And thats what the choice is about.
GOOD always vs BETTER sometimes, WORSE most of the time.
The fact that using trapskills forces you into the WORSE bucket more often was the clincher for me.

But, I said choice because the differences are minor enough for preference to outweigh min/max. It's not a competition, these are options.

Certainly these are options, and the right one is likely to depend on the player in question more than anything else.

I'm still undecided what build I want to run with, but I don't think your implication that the barb build is unraged "most of the time" is necessarily true. With 6 levels of barb and a decent con (including rage pots and possibly madstone), you're looking at 4x 135 second rages, or about 9 minutes per shrine. That's enough to keep you raged for the full combat durations of many quests and raged for the hard encounters of all quests. The trapsmithing is certainly an issue, but I can't think of many end-game quests where there's a trap which isn't either just before or just after a shrine.

Cheers,
Kernal

[OldAquarian]

Updated - removed Horc Dragonmarks - they were really disapointing

Summary of 6 Fighter/1 monk vs other choices
Only Barb 6 and Fighter 6 increases glancing
Only Monk increases speed via stance
Only Fighter 6 gets bonus from Kensei
Only Barb gets rage
Rage bonus is higher than Kensei bonus
Rage is limited by uses per rest
Rage must be dismissed to do search, disarm and open locks
After rage ends or is dismissed you are fatigued
Barb cannot take Monk

Ony 6 Fighter/Monk 1 gets the combination of +glance/+speed and gets Kensei bonus
- but it loses rage

1 Barb does not seem worthwhile as you may have to dismiss the 1 rage you get.

6 Barb/1 Fighter or 6 Monk/1 Figher may be worthwhile but they are different builds and have their own threads

[kernal42]

I agree with your assessment above, except that Fighter doesn't add haste - you're already getting the full haste boost line through rogue.

-Kernal

[OldAquarian]

I agree with your assessment above, except that Fighter doesn't add haste - you're already getting the full haste boost line through rogue.

-Kernal

Made it clearer - didn't mean haste boost - thanks

[painindaguild]

think that the real question is: how about more monk instead of fighter? ive got one of these beasts and they are very speedy. just for some more fun, self sufficiancy and speedrunning.

u cant be barb cus monk is lawful and barb cant be lawful. besides the fact that fighter is the only thing besides monk worth a splash. fighter gives u +1 to stunning, 2 seeker and +3 damage against 20% more speed from monk, 20% healing amp, slowfall combined with high tumble (so fast falling :P) and the first tier of advanced strikes.
also acces to either light buffs or +1d6 sneak from dark monk. u got the point go light.


so do u wanna be REAL fast or just go max dps as always? :)) (this depends how good u are at button smashing ki strikes also)

[elujin]

I agree with your assessment above, except that Fighter doesn't add haste - you're already getting the full haste boost line through rogue.

-Kernal

kensai 1 adds 1 haste boost (and outher boosts) and thats nice



think that the real question is: how about more monk instead of fighter? ive got one of these beasts and they are very speedy. just for some more fun, self sufficiancy and speedrunning.
strikes also)

the 6 fighter has more dps and feats the 6monk has healing ki for survivebility or the ninja spy + sneak and the blur thingy and 7 monk would get the healing skill wholeness of body i think its called :)

edite: oh and stances II :D

[painindaguild]

kensai 1 adds 1 haste boost (and outher boosts) and thats nice

correct very good point.




the 6 fighter has more dps and feats the 6monk has healing ki for survivebility or the ninja spy + sneak and the blur thingy and 7 monk would get the healing skill wholeness of body i think its called :)

edite: oh and stances II :D

incorrect. as soon as u start ki finishers u will do more dps actually. ofc u go light and not dark. 1d6 extra sneak is a joke compared to light finishers. however, going light requires an active playstyle, this is going to be a problem for some.

if ur good at buttonsmashing monk means more dps then kensai. kensai gives more hp and sustainable damage. monk gives overall more diversity, wich will help u get into shrouds were stands dps and only shows barbarian and fighter icon and also guarantees u a space into tod :)

fighter is more sustaineble hp and damage, but if u use ur hotkeys and are fan of the overactive playstyle monk is the way to go :)

1 more important thing for monk: gives more skillpoints: try to max out concentration since u need to make checks for scrolls sometimes.

[elujin]

correct very good point.



incorrect. as soon as u start ki finishers u will do more dps actually. ofc u go light and not dark. 1d6 extra sneak is a joke compared to light finishers. however, going light requires an active playstyle, this is going to be a problem for some.

if ur good at buttonsmashing monk means more dps then kensai. kensai gives more hp and sustainable damage. monk gives overall more diversity, wich will help u get into shrouds were stands dps and only shows barbarian and fighter icon and also guarantees u a space into tod :)

fighter is more sustaineble hp and damage, but if u use ur hotkeys and are fan of the overactive playstyle monk is the way to go :)

1 more important thing for monk: gives more skillpoints: try to max out concentration since u need to make checks for scrolls sometimes.

i am not sure monk is more dps there only seccond level strikes
however it could be i don't have any numbers .
but we can say 6fighter and 6monks have there pro and cons and are good options
my builds race is wf and that makes the monk healing a little less atractive so i went for fighter that stun dc enchantments and more feats

[painindaguild]

i am not sure monk is more dps there only seccond level strikes
however it could be i don't have any numbers .
but we can say 6fighter and 6monks have there pro and cons and are good options

100% agreed. after all it's u that's playing the build, so u gotta decide wat it should look like :)
just wanted to show that a 6 fighter split doesnt offer as much as 12 fighter for instance and other splits are highly viable as well.

[elujin]

100% agreed. after all it's u that's playing the build, so u gotta decide wat it should look like :)
just wanted to show that a 6 fighter split doesnt offer as much as 12 fighter for instance and other splits are highly viable as well.

i am not so sure about 12 fighter 13 rog seems key for most acrobat build the rest is variable and 1 monk atleast seems a good boost for only one level

[OldAquarian]

i am not so sure about 12 fighter 13 rog seems key for most acrobat build the rest is variable and 1 monk atleast seems a good boost for only one level

Staff is not the highest dps weapon, so this build makes up for it with speed
Monk 1 adds 7.5% speed and 2.5% doublestrike
Monk 6 adds 10% speed and 5% doublestrike
Rogue 6 adds +DEX to SA; 3d6 + 6; Speed boost to Staff (+5%?) ;showtime
Rogue 12 adds more staff speed (+10%? total) ; immunity to knockdown; Total of 6d6 SA + 12; 1 rogue feat
Rogue 13 adds another d6 SA; another rogue feat
Fighter 6 adds bonus feats; +attack/damage; +glancing blows; +tactics
Fighter 12 adds more feats; more +attack/damage; more +glancing; +tactics
Barbarian 6 adds Rage/Frenzy/+glancing blows
Barbarian 12 adds more Rage/glancing blows

To get +speed and +glancing: Fighter 6/monk 1 seems a good balance
Monk 6 would add some more speed but loses glancing and tactics bonus
Barb cannot be taken with Monk - so loses monk speed bonus

Also monk 1+ allows taking advantage of Monk Bracers http://ddowiki.com/page/Jidz-Tet'ka
It's Sun stance +healing is a nice situational bonus

And again - I am quite happy with this breakdown

I am not convinced of the benefit of any staff build with less than 13 Rogue or 6 Fighter/1 Barb (if you don't have monk or like raging, 6 Barb/1fighter seems better - 6 Barb at least gives 4 rages)

If you want more monk:
13 Rogue/6 Monk/1 Ranger : http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=282080 (interesting case for 1 Ranger here)

If you want Rage:
13 Rogue/6 Barb/1 Fighter : Developing here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=283468 (read whole thread)

[halfaprayer]

Thanks for the build, I just rolled a level four up (rog/monk/rog/rog) based on these stats but I'm still not sure about going 13/6/1 R/F/M or 13/7 R/M (prefare monk flavour at the mo).

I've named him RuleOfThumb as I'm sure Half-Orcs have fairly chunky didgits cabable of beating more than her-in-doors. :D

E2A: After reading t0t012's post below 13/6/1 r/f/m looks the best for me

[t0r012]

Staff is not the highest dps weapon, so this build makes up for it with speed

Monk 1 adds 7.5% speed and 2.5% doublestrike when hasted only adds doublestrike, don't forget the other monk benefits , like Wis mod to AC that allows the possibility to reach a high end game AC (given willingness to farm the gear) and if you are inclined extra damage through ki strikes.

Monk 6 adds 10% speed and 5% doublestrike once again when hasted only adds doublestrike. and i should point out that when not hasted only adds 2.5% speed over tierI which is a lackluster bonus for 5 levels invested IMO
Rogue 6 adds +DEX to SA; 3d6 + 6; Speed boost to Staff (+5%?) 10% ;showtime.

Rogue 12 adds more staff speed (+10%? total) adds 10% more for a total of 20% ; immunity to knockdown; Total of 6d6 SA + 12; 1 rogue feat pretty much a no brainer if you are building a staff build to go acrobat II, the speed is crazy, no knockdown is great in and of itself

Rogue 13 adds another d6 SA; another rogue feat

Fighter 6 adds bonus feats; +attack/damage; +glancing blows; +tactics plus STR AP. and lets not forget that the + attack and damage are from kensai , as well as the prereqs for kensai adding even more. Additional action boost is sweet as well. this one just seemed a bit understated just wanted to stress that weapon focus /specialization also add hit and damage on top of kensai hit and damage. Then on top of kensai DC the AP line for combat feats also up the DC.

Fighter 12 adds more feats; more +attack/damage; more +glancing; +tactics nice and all but for a staff build no way i'd give up acrobat II.

Barbarian 6 adds Rage/Frenzy/+glancing blows has its benefits and drawbacks tough to give up the option of Monk for the speed and AC. About equal numbers wise to a fighter for damage & DCs but you give up fighter feats and have to eat the worthless Cleave feat for FB. all in all even if monk weren't on the table I'd still probably prefer fighter. Run speed is nice for leveling though.

Barbarian 12 adds more Rage/glancing blows A total non starter for a staff build acroII 100% required , unless going with a 100% flavor/roleplaying build.

To get +speed and +glancing: Fighter 6/monk 1 seems a good balance agree

Monk 6 would add some more speed but loses glancing and tactics bonus Eh minor attack speed increase, modest runspeed, plus gains finishers which are a nice benefit but situational at best and reduce damage output. Walk of the sun for the +2 skills for traps/locks. IMO not enough to justify giving up kensai, much less acroII.
Barb cannot be taken with Monk - so loses monk speed bonus

Also monk 1+ allows taking advantage of Monk Bracers http://ddowiki.com/page/Jidz-Tet'ka
It's Sun stance +healing is a nice situational bonus Yeah I guess even when hasted you would be in windstance almost all the time for doublestrikes and the added dex to SA. maybe for topping off between fights but 25% amp doesn't scream to me must have it. Unless your tanking or going full DC stun mode and thus in Fire already.

And again - I am quite happy with this breakdown

I am not convinced of the benefit of any staff build with less than 13 Rogue or 6 Fighter/1 Barb (if you don't have monk or like raging, 6 Barb/1fighter seems better - 6 Barb at least gives 4 rages)

If you want more monk:
13 Rogue/6 Monk/1 Ranger : http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=282080 (interesting case for 1 Ranger here)

If you want Rage:
13 Rogue/6 Barb/1 Fighter : Developing here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=283468 (read whole thread)

my Opinions in red.
No problem with a stick rogue/barb but the rogue/fighter/monk just has more synergy and upside.

One last thing, AcroIII still isn't out yet. If it adds even half of what I & II do to staff speed anything short of 18 rogue will seem a waste.

[halfaprayer]

Theoretically, if AcroIII came out and was a must have for this build what would be the best spread? rog 20, rog/(monk or ftr) 19/1, rog/ftr/monk 18/1/1 ?

[OldAquarian]

my Opinions in red.
No problem with a stick rogue/barb but the rogue/fighter/monk just has more synergy and upside.

One last thing, AcroIII still isn't out yet. If it adds even half of what I & II do to staff speed anything short of 18 rogue will seem a waste.

Thank you for that detailed breakdown - +1 Rep

As to Acro III - will need to see what that brings and what else has changed by then - likely 18/1/1 Fighter/Monk as nice as the cap is - at some point, too much SA means sitting doing nothing and extra feats will always be useful :)

[t0r012]

Thank you for that detailed breakdown - +1 Rep

As to Acro III - will need to see what that brings and what else has changed by then - likely 18/1/1 Fighter/Monk as nice as the cap is - at some point, too much SA means sitting doing nothing and extra feats will always be useful :)

There is always something to be said for extra damage. The rogue SA cap is very, very nice. Arguably the "best" capstone to be had anywhere.

For Acro III, if it is good, it is a tough call what if any split to use. 19/1monk, the 18/1monk/1 fighter also has its appeals and then again so does pure.

I'd probably be disinclined to go 18/1/1 personally. Giving up the 1d6 sneak and the last rogue feat is a bit steep for for fighter 1 which is a couple HP from level 10more from toughness AP and +1 to SB DC from tactics line. I just don't see the trade worth it for giving up one of the Class feats. given the choice i'd give up skill mastery but with only 4 skill mastery usually doesn't make my list.

the real dilemma for me would be 19/1 or Pure. windstance speed when unhasted + doublestrike is a lot as is the Wisdom bonus to AC add in Ki strikes for a little extra boost and it is a real tough call. On the whole the monk adds damage and a whole lot of possible defense but rogue cap 4d6 is a lot of damage and +2 int isn't bad in its own right.

I guess I'd have to buckle down and puzzle out the numbers for wind doublestrike damage + occasional ki strike + 1 more dex damage on sneak from wind 1 and compare that to the numbers from the cap. plus flurry of blows adding adding the 1 BaB is a help if you miss on more than a 1. Plus the Monk bonus Feat and lets not forget tiny little things like beating oozes with fists to avoid weapon damage.

Arrgghhh , just so many factors to consider, some of which don't lend well to straight number crunching.

Shooting from the hip I'd say 19/1 would be my choice as that one brings a lot of benefits even if it is reduced DPS vs. pure. But thats my choice if you are a powergamer DPS is the end all be all then you would go pure (and TWF STR kopesh assassin but that is beside the point).
====
edit

also not such an awful idea to level 19/1 and grab the reincarnate for the cap to get the best of both worlds when you really need them. defense for leveling and max DPS at Cap.

[OldAquarian]

Shooting from the hip I'd say 19/1 would be my choice as that one brings a lot of benefits even if it is reduced DPS vs. pure. But thats my choice if you are a powergamer DPS is the end all be all then you would go pure (and TWF STR kopesh assassin but that is beside the point)

The extra dps from monk is always there, so when you can't do Sneak Attack damage, dps is higher. So it also adds flexibility and makes the math that much harder.

By the way - any comments on the actual build would be appreciated

[Anthios888]

But... 6 monk / 13 acrobat is SOOOO FAST! How could you not want to be so fast?!

[elyssaria]

But... 6 monk / 13 acrobat is SOOOO FAST! How could you not want to be so fast?!

Only SOOOO FAST when unhasted ;) Otherwise it "only" gives 5% doublestrike + 1D6 Sneak attack damage and Shadow Fade (which I love).

/Khierra

[Anthios888]

Only SOOOO FAST when unhasted ;) Otherwise it "only" gives 5% doublestrike + 1D6 Sneak attack damage and Shadow Fade (which I love).

/Khierra

Monk running speed stacks.

[OldAquarian]

Monk running speed stacks.

True and the 1 Ranger level adds sprint + FE

I honestly like both builds - I just like this one a little better :)

[elyssaria]

Here are the calculations as per request by OldAquarian:

13 rogue 6 fighter 1 monk (42 STR)

452,17 DPS if THF-Twitching
390,59 DPS normal fighting (Then you have glancing blows)

13 rogue 6 monk 1 ranger (40 STR)

467,29 DPS if THF-Twitching
396,99 DPS normal fighting (Then you have glancing blows)

Now we need to remember that the 3 damage from FE is very limited since it only works against one group of monsters. So if we remove those then the DPS is 457,18 THF-Twitch and 387,55 THF.

Then you have some other factors to keep in mind when choosing a build:


13 rogue 6 fighter 1 monk
* 6 Fighter give you 4 extra feats + 1 from 1 Monk
* 6 Fighter gives more HP then 6 Monk
* 6 Fighter gives better BAB then 6 Monk
* 6 Fighter gives 2 extra damage from weapon specialization and 2 extra str (equals to 1 more damage and 1 to hit)
* 6 Fighter gives you kensei I +2 damage (due to THF), + 1 to combat dc, +1 to ki on critical hits

13 rogue 6 monk 1 ranger

* 6 Monk gives you 3 extra feats where the 6 Fighter gets 5
* 6 Monk gives 5% doubleattack chance instead of 2,5% with 1 monk
* 6 Monk gives a bit better ki strikes, resulting in about 1.5 more damage per hit compared to 1 Monk
* 6 Monk gives 20% extra run speed, whereas 1 monk gives none
* 6 Monk gives ninjaspy I which gives 3.5 extra sneakattack damage and also Shadow Fade (which in my oppinion is a very very nice ability that gives you a 20% concealment that stacks with Blur and Displacement
* 1 Ranger adds 3 extra damage vs favored enemy (very situational though), ranger sprint boost

Just some more input to the discussion :)

/Khierra

[OldAquarian]

Thanks Khierra, just one question, how does the fighter "improved glancing blows" factor in?

Also, it seems that "6 Fighter gives better BAB then 6 Monk" does not apply if you are balanced

[elyssaria]

Thanks Khierra, just one question, how does the fighter "improved glancing blows" factor in? Can you explain this a bit more? I can't recall any fighter "improved glancing blows". Normally the improved glancing blows means 2-3% extra chance for effects to pass on to the glancing blow.

Also, it seems that "6 Fighter gives better BAB then 6 Monk" does not apply if you are balanced

With reservation of not being a specialist within the BAB it appears to me that the fighter will have a small advantage. According to the character planner a 13r/7m/1r build would have 14/14/19/24 on the attacks. Then you have flurry of blows which starts as 1 extra bab and every 4 lvls you gain another. So that would mean that the stats would be 16/16/21/26. Whereas the fighter gets 16/16/21/26/26 (with 1 flurry included). This is only according to the character planner and I wouldn't be surprised if you get an extra attack with the monk version as well since you reach above 15 BAB (this is a guess though). If so then it would be close even if the fighter gets slightly better bab on some of the attacks.



See the answers in bold text above in the quote :)

/Khierra

[OldAquarian]

from http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Enhancement:Kensei_Quarterstaff_Mastery_I :

Kensei Quarterstaff Mastery I

You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit, +2 to damage and to confirm criticals, and +4 to critical damage (before multipliers), as well as improved glancing blows that have a chance of applying magical weapon effects when using a Quarterstaff.

[elyssaria]

from http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Enhancement:Kensei_Quarterstaff_Mastery_I :

Kensei Quarterstaff Mastery I

You gain an additional +1 bonus to hit, +2 to damage and to confirm criticals, and +4 to critical damage (before multipliers), as well as improved glancing blows that have a chance of applying magical weapon effects when using a Quarterstaff.

Ahh I checked another kensei mastery and it wasn't quarterstaff so it didn't have the additional chance of applying magical weapon damage, however it should be as I said before then around 2-3% extra chance that your special effects like holy, shocking etc are applied on a glancing blow.

/Khierra

[testing1234]

lot of people seems to completely bypass the 13rogue/6fighter/1barb.
its the 1 barbarian id like to speak up for think its a better fit for this build then 1monk.
1lvl barb:
barbarian toughness 10hp 1AP (barb 1 lvl is 12hp monk is 8HP so +4extra hp for a total +14hp)
barbarian sprint 35% stacking run speed for 20sec 1AP
+1 power attack 1AP +1damage -1tohit
+10% running speed passive stacking
you also get 1 rage for 30sec+con modifier

1lvlmonk:
+2str from fire stance or +7,5attack speed +2,5% double strike with a -2con
+2 reflex +2will save higher then 1 lvl barb
elemental stikres 1d6 fire/lightning... 4damage from the earth strike

not a bad payout for a single monk lvl but the run speed from barb just seems more fun to me.


this is one speedy running build both acrobat run speed 10% and the 10% barbarian run speed so 20% stacking passive run speed this is like nobody else in party are wearing striders and you are and u can boost this for a extra 35% stacking when you need makes you the fastest character in the game for this 20sec by 15% margin over monk.
belive monk caps out at +30% running at lvl15 for comparison.

[testing1234]

* 6 Monk gives 20% extra run speed, whereas 1 monk gives none
/Khierra

according to wiki 6 monk gives 10% running speed. sounds very bottom heavy if your really correct are you saying 12monk have 40% running and 15 monk 50% running or that it caps out at 9 and never raises after that?

[painindaguild]

i think i already pointed this out but once again.

most reasons u listed to go barbarian monk simply does better. for instance monk running speed. monk goes 10% faster then mister barb on lvl 6. saves are the most important, for the simple fact dex is a dump stat and we aint gonna take the int feat.. monk brings most.

also 1 thing as u never rolled a rogue before apparently:
u cant do traps while raged.

i bet im a "cheater" then that my monk outruns the normal melees with 30 striding. maybe check this again???

12/6/1 or 12/7 rogue/monk/fighter looks like the best trade off for this build. however evrything is viable and just take wat u want, after all it wont differ really.

the real question is still: how fast do u wanna go?

[testing1234]

i think i already pointed this out but once again.



was only comparing 13rogue 6fighter builds if they should go 1 monk or 1 barb as nobody in this thread had apparently considers this close enough to talk about. not sure if barbarian 1 lvl is better as the classes dont give the same type of benefits but think its close enough to valid a good long hard think about.
so no you had not pointed this out before as it had not been discussed before at all.


also 1 thing as u never rolled a rogue before apparently:
u cant do traps while raged.


1 lvl barbarian will have a total of 1minute of rage between each shinre this will not affect trap skills and is not reason you go 1 lvl barb or should not be. most 1 barb splashes only use this at certain short lived endfights and like i said only if the endfight is short.
and ive had a rogue/monk qstaff build was decent dps like most rogue builds are but found the weapon choices very limited if your to lazy to make sevral GS qstaffs, and as such would been better to go more focused on stunning blow since then your main weapon would be a randomly generated qstaff. still if you willing to farm shroud for this character also then sure go monk.


most reasons u listed to go barbarian monk simply does better. for instance monk running speed. monk goes 10% faster then mister barb on lvl 6. saves are the most important, for the simple fact dex is a dump stat and we aint gonna take the int feat.. monk brings most.

im not buying the fact that 6lvl of monk gets 20% stacking running speed did check the information on wiki and it said its incorrect but if you got a link to somewere else i trust saying monks get this?
or are you saying 6monk got 20% none stacking run speed becuse thats rather weak compared to 10% stacking

if 6 lvls of monk or 6 lvls of fighter is best is seems rather easy to me if you want stunning blow you go fighter if not you get sevral fun abilities from 6monk no matter if you go dark or light. if you want dps then im not sure as cant help thinking what the heck are you doing with a qstaff build in the first place?




12/6/1 or 12/7 rogue/monk/fighter looks like the best trade off for this build. however evrything is viable and just take wat u want, after all it wont differ really.

the real question is still: how fast do u wanna go?
i agree,
myself find the fire stances +1stunning blow from str only reason to go monk and running speed only reason to go 1lvl barb but included all the details as others might find them interesting.
id never consider going 6 or 7 lvl of monk since it would lose to much in stunning blow which is to me the one saving grace of using qstaffs, not saying that 6monks is less good but you dont compare a splash monk build with a stunning blow build in my opinion as goals are not the same.

not sure if i made myself very clear in this post but cant seem to way to say what i think on the subject in few words thats easily understod. i agree with you that its a taste matter on which of this builds are best.



i bet im a "cheater" then that my monk outruns the normal melees with 30 striding. maybe check this again???

yes i know monks are faster then any other ive always assumed they had 40% but cant find a good trustworth place that has that info and list what speed they have at what lvls they get that speed

[OldAquarian]

if you want dps then im not sure as cant help thinking what the heck are you doing with a qstaff build in the first place?

Lets not jump to conclusions about this not being a solid DPS build

It has enough rogue levels that you will likely need to hold back unless your tank is rock solid
Any DPS over the hold back level is wasted, so if you can pull agro, you are a dps build

[elyssaria]

im not buying the fact that 6lvl of monk gets 20% stacking running speed did check the information on wiki and it said its incorrect but if you got a link to somewere else i trust saying monks get this?
or are you saying 6monk got 20% none stacking run speed becuse thats rather weak compared to 10% stacking

yes i know monks are faster then any other ive always assumed they had 40% but cant find a good trustworth place that has that info and list what speed they have at what lvls they get that speed

Well from my knowledge of playing monks it increases by 10% every 3 lvls and the first step is at lvl 3 then next 6. This also confirms with the normal D&D rules.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm

As said I am 99,99999 % sure that you have 20% runspeed at lvl 6 :)

/Khierra

[OldAquarian]

So - been leveling this and I have actually found Brutal Throw very useful - I still miss occasionally, so it seems I would miss a lot more without it - ranged damage is not crazy good - but it is good enough for when its needed

Staff speed is noticable, and dps is high enough that I have to hold back often enough, unless there is a really good tank (and even then :) )

Get some odd stares when I join a PuG - then when people notice kill counts, I get a lot of questions, so it seems to be working out :)

Short form - fun so far

[Mistycball]

Very interesting built....

[Dragon-Kin]

First - thanks to the OP for the build concept, very solid +1 rep.

I am also running this on my first TR, had a Big F Stick build capped and wanted to see if the Horc race would be a nice change, hey go from the smallest toon in the party to a monster sounded fun.

I can say that the DPS on this build is equal to or greater than my Exployter build at the same level. The glancing blows are making a huge impact on the low level content. I am also seeing what looks like cleave from NWN, even though I do not have the feat. I seem to kill mobs so fast the combat move continues and wipes out the rest of the nasties in a arch around me...

Now, my toon is well geared, but from the eyeball test your DPS numbers may be right on target. I have not run in a PUG that I did not lead the kill count by a nice margin to date, and I am an average player at best. When I do want to pour it on nothing seems to stand in my way.

Wonder how this will go at 12 and 13 when I get all my greensteel litII and +6 gear...

Thanks again for the great work here, really having fun with it!!

Look for Pivott on Khyber for a demo.

[OldAquarian]

Wonder how this will go at 12 and 13 when I get all my greensteel litII and +6 gear...

At 12 - Gear upgrades
At 13 - 6 Rogue: boost from Acro I (noticably faster)
At 14 - 7 Rogue: biggest jump in Sneak Attack - +d6 SA, SA Training III
At 15 - Greater THF: a jump in glancing
At 16 - 9 Rogue: +d6 of SA
At 17 - Opportunist, SA Training IV
At 18 - Another +d6 of SA
At 19 - Acro II - another speed boost (and Immunity to falling)
At 20 - Another +d6 of SA (and Imp Evasion)

So choose your tanks wisely

[Seydlitz]

Really, really like this build and I'm going to give it a try. What sort of gear do you figure this guy will be carrying? I have seen HORC's running around with Dreamspitters and the staff from the IQ (Raul's Might?). Is this the sort of thing your build will be using? Also, what sort of armor will he be wearing - theoretically speaking, o' course....

[XL_Jockey]

I feel like finding good weapons is a lot tougher than I anticipated. Other than getting ready to try for a dreamspitter, I think I'll be stuck with some underwhelming weapons for a while.

[OldAquarian]

I feel like finding good weapons is a lot tougher than I anticipated. Other than getting ready to try for a dreamspitter, I think I'll be stuck with some underwhelming weapons for a while.

Still leveling, but with the attack speed - any Paralysing staff is effective - if not just plain fun
Currently carrying a bunch of situational staves, but so far - thats my favorite

[OldAquarian]

Really, really like this build and I'm going to give it a try. What sort of gear do you figure this guy will be carrying? I have seen HORC's running around with Dreamspitters and the staff from the IQ (Raul's Might?). Is this the sort of thing your build will be using? Also, what sort of armor will he be wearing - theoretically speaking, o' course....

I will defer to the well laid out gear options listed under the Big F'n Stick Build
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=158960

[XL_Jockey]

Still leveling, but with the attack speed - any Paralysing staff is effective - if not just plain fun
Currently carrying a bunch of situational staves, but so far - thats my favorite

Yeah, I'm only lvl6 myself since I just rolled this char and play it sparingly. I have a +3 Quarterstaff and a +1 Flaming of Somethingorother. I rolled into Delera's with a hireling and finished the first part but it's just lacking. Might have to make a pair of Mabar wraps to swap into instead though I hate mote farming and don't have the plat to buy any. Gotta hop on my main and hit some chests to see what I can find.

[weedf16]

My thoughts on this concept are this. First, imo opinion the last thing a rogue wants is aggro. Therefore, I am going to try this build without the THF feat chain. Suddenly, this concept is not feat starved thus reducing the need to splash monk or fighter for combat feats. IMO, if you are splashing 1 lvl of monk it better be for AC otherwise you are just gimping yourself. My build will be a 12/8 rog/barb or maybe 13/7 for the extra 1d6 sneak. The feat progression will be:

1) Toughness
3) PA
6) SB
9) CE
12) Imp Trip
15) Imp Crit: Bludgeon
18) Quickdraw

I'm not sold on the CE/Imp trip addition, I'll see how my trip DC's work out then maybe replace those with a weapon focus, more toughness, or maybe SF: UMD. I plan on NEVER turning on CE.

A couple of comments on the previous posts:

- I don't feel the need to be the fastest runner in a group. In fact, as a rogue if you're out front and not in sneak mode you just got all the aggro and lost your most potent weapon: sneak attack.

- The point of this build is DPS. If you get aggro, your DPS drops off significantly. Max subtle backstabbing is a must.

- Traps rarely slow down a party unless on elite/epic. Most of the time the rogue is left behind to disarm for the extra xp while the party zergs ahead. So if I'm raged I will zerg ahead and come back for the boxes once rage wares off. For the rare times when you approach a trap that will be a party wipe unless the rogue disables, I'm willing to sacrifice a rage.

[wiglin]

A couple of thoughts. As always these are my opinion and others may vary.

1) A good hate tank (my preferred method of tanking) can keep aggro against quite a bit of damage. Now if you spend most of your TOD's, VOD's, etc... in a pug where a good hate tank is hard to come by then I understand, but if you are with good players then max the dps first, and see how many times you pull agro before dropping the THF feats.

2) Stunned mobs in epics take damage regardless, the more the better.

3) I like the idea of improved trip, but having to take CE first is really a turn off, and it doesn't auto crit. I would just stick with Stunning Blow. No CE pre-requisite.

4) 13 Rogue is my minimum. This way you have both improved evasion and opportunist.

5) 6 Barb is a good cutoff, no real game breaking gains from levels 7 or 8 in the class or enhancements. With a 13/6/1 you can take 1 fighter which opens up a +1 dc enhancement for stunning blow, and 6 barb gives you the option for frenzy.

6) Splashing 1 monk for starters is impossible with barb levels, but aside from that it does not gimp yourself. At the least you can get +2str, or +2.5% doublestrike, and 1d6 dmg with ki strikes.

[OldAquarian]

While some have commented that the THF causes aggo or does nothing - keep in mind that it has previously been broken - and even without THF - you have the same chance of doing some damage - THF only increases the damage done (from 20% to 50%) - so if you are going to grab any unhit mob - doing more damage is better and should be just as easy to overcome by a tank.

In addition glancing blows effect your primary target and is now a not insignificant part of THF damage
While Barb is an option for staff builds - it seems that fighter or monk fit better as low levels of Barb do not have seem to have enough rage to be always on, this raises issues of fatigue and some rage can be lost if you need to trapsmith.
Kensei seems to be a roughly even tradeoff with Monk - and as linked previoisly, monk6/ranger1 seems a good alternative, as does monk 7.

This is not a pure rogue build, and although the SA damage is good - this build can manage even on mobs immune to SA. Both are a bit heartier than a pure rogue and can take a few hits, and in this respect acts like a regular DPS build.
While people may still scoff at staff builds, the Half Orc benefits make them a serious build now, as anyone who has grouped with one can attest. I still get the occasional disbeliver before a run, but never after. As I, and others with this build, have often topped the kill counts. (kill count is not perfect, but if you generally are top and people see you mowing down mobs, its relevant). The speed benefit is very noticable.

I, for one, am really enjoying this build, and it just keeps getting better. The only varient to this build is to opt out of some of the less neccessary feats and go more toughness, but I find the ranged option valuable, same with quickdraw and resilience.

As a side note, somebody in a PuG with me (I was on an alt), was running this build and was bragging about it to me. It was interesting seeing it in action 3rd person. I was not disappointed, but that time, although close, it didn't top kill count :)

[OldAquarian]

Added skill comments as follows to OP by request:

As far as skills go:

Didn't actually lay it out - but obviously
1 pt Tumble - Thats all you need
Max: UMD,DD,Search,Jump
only Some Balance (remember you will get fall immunity so not too much),
Some Spot, (more if you don't know where the boxes are) - seeing hiding enemies has value
Some Open Lock - don't need this maxed
Some Hide
Some Move Silently
Depending on your playstyle/tank throw in Bluff, Diplomacy
And then there is always Haggle

You get alot of points, so its easy to catch skills up, during the last levels that are all rogue
Rogue levels are 9 each, so there is a lot of freedom here, but , if you want and have access, a +2 INT tome at 7 gives you 1 more per level

[callforkills]

I don't completely understand this build.

IIRC arcobat makes dex bonus add to staff damage, but this build only has 12 dex..
It has no wisdom for monk levels, which would be very nice if it had = much more
dps with monk elemental attacks and more ac.
Brutal throw, resillience and quick draw, ***?

make a quick leveling char like cleric or bard - TR it twice and you have 36 stat points.
That would make this build a decent dps when not having aggro, able to solo and
decent ac.

I know rogue gives more sneak attack every odd level, but i would make this build 12 rogue, 6 fighter, 2 monk.

[OldAquarian]

I don't completely understand this build.

IIRC arcobat makes dex bonus add to staff damage, but this build only has 12 dex..
It has no wisdom for monk levels, which would be very nice if it had = much more
dps with monk elemental attacks and more ac.
Brutal throw, resillience and quick draw, ***?

make a quick leveling char like cleric or bard - TR it twice and you have 36 stat points.
That would make this build a decent dps when not having aggro, able to solo and
decent ac.

I know rogue gives more sneak attack every odd level, but i would make this build 12 rogue, 6 fighter, 2 monk.

Dex to staff is nice, but the main idea of Acro II/Monk I is +speed/doublestrike
Rogue 13 allows Opportunist and Imp Evasion (and another SA die)
Quick Draw allows for faster Rogue Haste
In addition Quick draw + Brutal throw allows for good ranged
Resilience is for traps you have to get past to disarm

If you don't like the 3 feats - toughness is always good - However - I found the feats chosen more useful

[Resilian]

Ya, in my build variant I initially had a bunch of toughness, but then realized it wasn't really needed. These builds can easily get to 500hp without any major buffing (maybe a rage..) and thats with just 1 toughness. I ended up taking Skill Focus: UMD on my build because I don't care much for ranged. :)

To quote my build:


Hitpoints (unbuffed):
20 heroic
10 draconic
8 ranger
48 monk
78 rogue
20 racial toughness
22 toughness
140 con
40 Sup False Life
20 toughness item
45 greensteel
--------------------
451 HP unbuffed
+20 Rage Spell
----------------
471 HP
+40 Madstone
--------------
511 HP
+40 Double Madstone
------------------------
551 HP if fully raged

[Dragon-Kin]

Question for the OP, why the max on concentration for skills?

[OldAquarian]

Question for the OP, why the max on concentration for skills?

Um, no reason, unless you really want to monk around, removed

[OldAquarian]

I ended up taking Skill Focus: UMD on my build because I don't care much for ranged. :)

What do you do for the times you need to range?

[Cardtrick]

Thank you for this build -- I really love the concept of it, and it seems like it could be very effective. I'm about to roll up a slightly modified version of it, for primarily solo play (I know it sounds masochistic, but I really enjoy soloing rogues).

Here's what I'm planning:


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.8.0
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Badstick d'Trick
Level 20 Lawful Neutral Half-Orc Male
(6 Fighter \ 1 Monk \ 13 Rogue)
Hit Points: 310
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 15
Will: 8

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 20 27 30
Dexterity 12 14 17
Constitution 14 16 16
Intelligence 12 14 14
Wisdom 8 10 10
Charisma 6 8 8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Balance 5 13 19
Bluff 2 21 22
Concentration 2 3 4
Diplomacy -2 -1 0
Disable Device 5 25 25
Haggle -2 -1 -1
Heal -1 0 0
Hide 4 14 14
Intimidate -2 -1 0
Jump 9 22 26
Listen -1 0 0
Move Silently 3 18 18
Open Lock 5 17 17
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair 1 2 2
Search 5 25 25
Spot 1 20 20
Swim 5 10 10
Tumble 2 4 10
Use Magic Device 2 22 25

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Bluff (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Hide (+3)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Improved Balance I


Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Orcish Great Weapon Aptitude I
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I


Level 3 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Spot (+3)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness
Enhancement: Orcish Strength I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 4 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+3)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+3)
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I


Level 5 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+3)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Brutal Throw
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I


Level 6 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 7 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage II


Level 8 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+3)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II


Level 9 (Fighter)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Orcish Great Weapon Aptitude II


Level 10 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Kensei Quarterstaff Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I


Level 11 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+3)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Spot (+2)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Orcish Strength II


Level 12 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+1)
Skill: Search (+2)
Skill: Spot (+5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Use Magic Device
Enhancement: Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Improved Balance II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II


Level 13 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I


Level 14 (Rogue)
Skill: Bluff (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity II


Level 15 (Rogue)
Skill: Bluff (+3)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting
Enhancement: Orcish Great Weapon Aptitude III


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Bluff (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III


Level 17 (Rogue)
Skill: Bluff (+5)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Opportunist
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking II


Level 18 (Rogue)
Skill: Bluff (+2)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+2)
Skill: Move Silently (+2)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Spot (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity III


Level 19 (Rogue)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Hide (+3)
Skill: Move Silently (+4)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II


Level 20 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Move Silently (+3)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Rogue Bonus) Improved Evasion
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV




As you can see, it's mostly the same. There are a few differences:

* I played with the order of the first ten levels to spread out the rogue skills a bit for more early-game trapmonkey ability and to get a few useful feats earlier (doesn't lead to Kensai coming any later, though)

* Replaced Quick Draw and Resilience with SF: UMD and a second Toughness

* Decided to put some points in Balance, since knockdown immunity doesn't take effect until level 19; took Bluff for some extra sneak attacks when soloing; left open lock, hide, and move silently low -- will need to use gear for those

* Various minor changes to enhancements, but of course those can be respecced at any time; I'll play around with those a bit before deciding on what to go with long term.

Thank you again for the excellent build. I can't wait to try it out!

EDIT: Also, I'm thinking about swapping my second Toughness out for Sap. Does anyone have any insight into how well/poorly Sap would work with this build?

[Emizand]

Any chance of an update pls?

[Acers13]

I had started a similar build, but decided to drop the dragonmarks for cleave/great cleave/extra toughness when I read that 'diploing' the chest was charisma based.
out of curiosity, why take monk with no wisdom?

I was thinking the same thing with the Cleave and no wis :P. I almost put it through the CharGen and posted it on thread but than i saw your post xD.

[PDRocks]

...as a compromise between fighter 6/monk 1 and fighter 1/monk 6?

For fighter you'd get enhancements and ability for weap. spec feat, and compared to fighter 6 would only miss:
+1 str
1 feat
kensai 1 (somewhat big, but would save APs for other things)

For Monk, you'd get healing amp 1, meditation, way of ___, wis+1, fast movement and fists of light. Compared to monk 6, you would miss:
prestiege class (enough APs for?)
level two stances (nothing too big other than more powerful strikes)
way of ____2
1 monk bonus feat
additional +1 wis


I'm not into the button mashing, so monk 6 for all the ki strikes is not as appealing to me. The loss of kensai seems like the biggest question mark.