Culture of playing / culture of looting

[laurenar]

I would like to ask you about your opinions about the following types situations during looting raid chests, or other
chests with named bounded items (actual questions at the end):
(situations in compressed forms, mainly as Party chat log, I hope you will get an idea what is I'm talking about)

Situation 1:

(player a): XXX for roll
(player b): rolls 10
(player c): rolls 20
(player d): rolld 30
player a assigns xxx to player d
player d assigns xxx to player b
(player b): loots xxx

notes:
usually player d and player b are from the same guild
(personally, today I faced a situation when player b waited (at least he tried) for all party members to leave the party before he did it, i had something to do in real life so i waited to see this... almost 2 hours i think, not sure, i was not focused at ddo... quite amazing... 2 hours to try to hide such behaviour)

Situation 2:

(leader): roll for (epic scroll)
(player a): rolls 10
(player b): rolls 20
(leader): no, player b, you cannot roll for that scroll (and he gives random arguments for that)
player a gets the scroll


Situation 3:

(player a): xxx for roll
(player b): rolls 10
(player c): rolls 20
(player b): i will give you yyy for xxx
(player d): i will give you zzz for xxx
(player a): ok player b, lets trade
player a assigns xxx to player b
(player b): loots xxx

notes:
step 2 and 5 not always present in this pattern

notes:
its not rare when in case of valuable scrolls `player a` (or all players involved in the situation) actually doesn't need
that scroll for himself, just to sell it for high price, as for me it doesn't matter here

My questions are:
* Did you faced such (or similar) situations while playing ddo? If yes - how often?
* Any similar situations you faced in ddo?
* Do you approve such behaviour? Yes? No? But more important - why?

My own answers:
* For me, such situations happen from time to time. Avarage rate = once per week (when I started playing ddo the rate was lower).
* Most situations i faced match these patterns, or i don't remember different kind of situations at this moment.
* Of course not. Why? As for me, being fair to other players is enough for explanation. If your answer is `Yes, I'm ok with such behaviour.` then my question is what are we playing for? To have all you need at all cost? When I started playing ddo, community here looked better then in others mmo, probably because of no actual PvP here. With time it has changed...

More questions/reflections: if we for example agree with Situation 1 (noted variant of guildmates) - then why we party with
people from different guilds? In that case we have lowered probability of getting items you want? So playing your own guild
is the only way for fair looting rules? Maybe - i don't know... As for Situation 3 - why the leader decides (and on what criterias) who can/cannot get `free` gold? Situation 3 needs no other comments.

On the other hand if you don't agree with mentioned behaviours - how your relations with people involved changes after such situations? It's quite easy to answer this question when you don't play with such people often. But what when you know them for a long time / consider them as your friends? You say to yourself `Nothing happened, although i would never do this.` and forget? You stop playing with them as if past countless common runs don't matter? Yet no idea...

And no, I'm not idealistic, but I would like to know what you, mainly as me adult people, what is your point of view of culture of playing here...

PS: I play at Cannith, quite new server. How it looks at older servers? This is question for old players from old servers? How this change with time?

[baletraeger]

In my opinion, if you want to set any loot rules other than everyone gets a roll, you need to set the rules before entering the quest, so that all players can agree on exclusions, trade rules, etc etc.

[Frostwhisperer]

Situation 1: If player a gives loot away it'll be his loot. He is allowed to do anything he wants with it including giving it away

Situation 2: Leaders loot is loot of the leader. IMHO he doesn't even have to give arguments, tough kind of dissapointing if he says people get to roll on it.

Situation 3: Hey if someone offers a nice item for something you don't want it's neat. If the player who rollod succesfully for it gets something you want even more later in you just £%*"ed yourself

[Eladiun]

Situation 1: Blacklist, rolling on something just to pass off to someone else is garbage.

Situation 2: Talking epic scrolls makes it weird...too many factors. If player A has the item, the seal, and the shard vs player B missing one or more I give player A preference because they can complete their item. With chest loot, excluding people from rolling on your pull is perfectly fine. If a wizzy rolls against the DPS for madstone boots and wins on my pull, I ignore the roll. You want it for a TR pull it on your 20. I'll explain it first priority goes to those who can use this life.

Situation 3: Fine, your loot is your loot. By trading both parties get something they need. I frown on buying raid loot though.

[Phidius]

...
Situation 1:

(player a): XXX for roll
(player b): rolls 10
(player c): rolls 20
(player d): rolld 30
player a assigns xxx to player d
player d assigns xxx to player b
(player b): loots xxx

notes:
usually player d and player b are from the same guild
(personally, today I faced a situation when player b waited (at least he tried) for all party members to leave the party before he did it, i had something to do in real life so i waited to see this... almost 2 hours i think, not sure, i was not focused at ddo... quite amazing... 2 hours to try to hide such behaviour)
...

YLYC: Your Loot Your Choice.

In this scenario, the loot belonged to Player A, and his choice was for high roll to decide who got it. Player D and B violated that trust, and would be blacklisted by many people, myself included.


...
Situation 2:

(leader): roll for (epic scroll)
(player a): rolls 10
(player b): rolls 20
(leader): no, player b, you cannot roll for that scroll (and he gives random arguments for that)
player a gets the scroll
...

This is an example of the party leader ninja looting a scroll. This is a risk you take running epics with strangers.

Nothing to see here. Move along, move along.


...
Situation 3:

(player a): xxx for roll
(player b): rolls 10
(player c): rolls 20
(player b): i will give you yyy for xxx
(player d): i will give you zzz for xxx
(player a): ok player b, lets trade
player a assigns xxx to player b
(player b): loots xxx

...

YLYC, but player A should have decided ahead of time if he was going to sell it or not. Since they originally offered it up for roll, they should honor that offer.

Not worth blacklisting, but if they roll on loot that I offer, I might require some kind of payment or I'd ignore their roll. Presuming, of course, that I would even remember their name.

[Thrudh]

Situation 1:

(player a): XXX for roll
(player b): rolls 10
(player c): rolls 20
(player d): rolld 30
player a assigns xxx to player d
player d assigns xxx to player b
(player b): loots xxx

Bad form. I specifically state before giving my loot up for roll that this is not allowed. I blacklist if I see it done anyway.


(personally, today I faced a situation when player b waited (at least he tried) for all party members to leave the party before he did it, i had something to do in real life so i waited to see this... almost 2 hours i think, not sure, i was not focused at ddo... quite amazing... 2 hours to try to hide such behaviour)

Because they know it's wrong and/or frowned upon by other players.


Situation 2:

(leader): roll for (epic scroll)
(player a): rolls 10
(player b): rolls 20
(leader): no, player b, you cannot roll for that scroll (and he gives random arguments for that)
player a gets the scroll

That's fine... His loot, his rules. I argue with him if he gives poor arguments, but in the end, that's fine. I'll do the same thing with certain items (like a fighter rolling on a Stormreaver napkin, or a pure bard rolling on Levik's Defender)


Situation 3:

(player a): xxx for roll
(player b): rolls 10
(player c): rolls 20
(player b): i will give you yyy for xxx
(player d): i will give you zzz for xxx
(player a): ok player b, lets trade
player a assigns xxx to player b
(player b): loots xxx

I find this very distasteful, but I don't blacklist for it, or anything... I just ignore it and move on... Luckily, I find this to be very rare...

I have been handed most of my raid gear for free... I would never charge someone else for raid gear, or let a bidding war start.

[rest]

Simplest solution: Don't pug.

Guild runs FTW.

[laurenar]

That's fine... His loot, his rules. I argue with him if he gives poor arguments, but in the end, that's fine. I'll do the same thing with certain items (like a fighter rolling on a Stormreaver napkin, or a pure bard rolling on Levik's Defender)


Are the scrolls dropped by a party owned by that party leader by default?

[Uska]

Well I would ignore any rolls from either in future myself as well as any from their guild

[Irinis]

Are the scrolls dropped by a party owned by that party leader by default?

Not in any group I've been in for epics. If someone solos the quest, it's their scrolls. If it's a full group, we all roll... and people who don't want to roll say "pass" for it instead of rolling so that everything's clear.

In my groups sometimes I've stated as party leader that all rolls will be need before greed, but that alts do count. That way when the wizard rolls on a scroll that looks like it's for a melee they can say "I'm rolling on this because I have a ___." No more hurt feelings because the wizard won the scroll of the whatever.

[Junts]

Not in any group I've been in for epics. If someone solos the quest, it's their scrolls. If it's a full group, we all roll... and people who don't want to roll say "pass" for it instead of rolling so that everything's clear.

In my groups sometimes I've stated as party leader that all rolls will be need before greed, but that alts do count. That way when the wizard rolls on a scroll that looks like it's for a melee they can say "I'm rolling on this because I have a ___." No more hurt feelings because the wizard won the scroll of the whatever.


We've taken to just rolling 1d6 (or however many people are in party and in quest; people outside quest obviously dont get included) and ggiving it to whoever is in that position in the group list for the leader. Since the leader is always 1 (first place on their own list) this just makes it quicker. /roll d6, 5. rodney, get the scroll.

[Dwarfo]

i have noticed situation 3, three times, all in the same raid, dumb dumb Vault of Night.

1st time: Sword of shadows drops, dude says, ok roll, i roll 96, other dude rolls 56 and then a third guy says: oh, i can give you some large devil scales for that...its passed to him.

2nd: same thing, except a guy pays a LOAD of plat for the SoS.

3rd: belt of moranon, couple people roll, then a guy trades it off for some larges.

i hate trading off, although i DONT blacklist for it.

[smokeyser]

We've taken to just rolling 1d6 (or however many people are in party and in quest; people outside quest obviously dont get included) and ggiving it to whoever is in that position in the group list for the leader. Since the leader is always 1 (first place on their own list) this just makes it quicker. /roll d6, 5. rodney, get the scroll.

I like this. Fast, simple, and fair. Thanks for the idea!

[voodoogroves]

I'd make a mental note of those unlikely to be honest about loot distro up front. Your loot, your choice ... but saying one thing and doing another is crappy.

Honestly, I've had two pretty good experiences on the other side of the spectrum in the past day or so.

VoD ...
- Bracers of the Glacier drop for player A
- A says "Bracers of the Glacier for roll"
- Player B rolls on Glacier
- Tharnes also drops for Player C
- Player D rolls on Glacier
- Player A says "I'll trade you Tharnes for Glacier"
- Player D says "I thought they were for roll?"
- Player C says to Player A "Don't need Glacier, Tharnes are up for roll"
- Player A continues to try to work trade with Player C
- Player C won't budge "No man, I said they were for roll so they are for roll; not gonna go back on that"
- Player A assigns Glacier to B, drops group
- Player B puts Glaciers up for roll instead of just looting them (even though they wanted them) ... and got them on the roll


Shroud, supreme shard up for roll.
- Player A who has it asks in voice chat if anyone wants it
- Player B responds in voice
- Player C responds in party chat
- After a few seconds A assigns to B
- B puts shard up for roll



Classy.

[LordPiglet]

i have noticed situation 3, three times, all in the same raid, dumb dumb Vault of Night.

1st time: Sword of shadows drops, dude says, ok roll, i roll 96, other dude rolls 56 and then a third guy says: oh, i can give you some large devil scales for that...its passed to him.

2nd: same thing, except a guy pays a LOAD of plat for the SoS.

3rd: belt of moranon, couple people roll, then a guy trades it off for some larges.

i hate trading off, although i DONT blacklist for it.

I blacklist for it. If they offer it up, when we go in, in the lfm, or before that item is put up for roll, fine. If they put it up for roll, then it's up for roll, IMHO.

[LordPiglet]

I'd make a mental note of those unlikely to be honest about loot distro up front. Your loot, your choice ... but saying one thing and doing another is crappy.

Honestly, I've had two pretty good experiences on the other side of the spectrum in the past day or so.

VoD ...
- Bracers of the Glacier drop for player A
- A says "Bracers of the Glacier for roll"
- Player B rolls on Glacier
- Tharnes also drops for Player C
- Player D rolls on Glacier
- Player A says "I'll trade you Tharnes for Glacier"
- Player D says "I thought they were for roll?"
- Player C says to Player A "Don't need Glacier, Tharnes are up for roll"
- Player A continues to try to work trade with Player C
- Player C won't budge "No man, I said they were for roll so they are for roll; not gonna go back on that"
- Player A assigns Glacier to B, drops group
- Player B puts Glaciers up for roll instead of just looting them (even though they wanted them) ... and got them on the roll


I'm kind of mean about trades, and actually going to start being nicer. I don't trade unless they got something I want in the chest. I'm just going to do the trade and put what they offered me up for roll from now on most likely.

[Tholar]

What about this scenario:

Player A find item in chest.

Player A gives raid item to friend (Player C).

Player B has a fit and yells at Player A, moves on to tells after leaving party.

[Junts]

I like this. Fast, simple, and fair. Thanks for the idea!

If you trust everyone, the first perso nto it can just pick it up and roll, since the roller will always be 1 on the die. Tis what we usually do. I'm often rolling before people know what scroll they won.

[Adrian99]

It seems to me that pulling an item is luck, and the only method of distribution that could possibly be considered fair is a roll. And I think in the end it works best for everyone. As an example, I was in a group running Weapons Shipment.

1) I pull a mysterious bauble and declare it up for roll
2) Player A (the leader) says he'll pay me 100kpp for it. I say no, roll for it.
3) Player A and B both roll. Player B wins and gets the bauble. Player A makes a face, but we continue.
4) Next run, player B pulls a bauble. Knowing that no one else in the group wants to roll for it, gives it to Player A

The end result: 2 people got baubles, player A got to keep his bribe money, and the roll was kept sacred. Win.

[Yellfor]

My thoughts on these and a story after.

Situation 1:
Player D won fair and square so it then became HIS loot to do with as he/she/it wanted... No, I don't think it is entirely fair or right BUT still within the UNWRITTEN rule “Loot assigned to U is Ur's to do with as U want.”
And sinse the loot was passed to D, he/she/it can pass it on IF HE/SHE/IT WANTS TO.

Situation 2:
Was the Epic scroll ASSIGNED to the leader or did it just drop and ANYONE could have picked it up? (Haven't run any Epic content yet so I don't know how it drops.)
Was it said BEFORE the run:
A. Anyone could roll.
OR
B. That the leader would give it away.
For A then the Leader was wrong UNLESS there was a REAL GOOD REASON.. and not a weak a#$ one.

Situation 3:
If A said “Roll for it” then A should have stuck by it! An A would be on my /Squelch list for any loot I would give away from then on.
And I would make sure he/she/it would know my feelings by saying “Any one want this (some item) roll for it BUT A!"

And now my lootz story...

I joined a pug party that still had one more spot to fill.
Now while we were waiting for that last spot to fill, I listened to the small talk that the Sor was making. Overheard him say that he really needed a better charisma item as all he had been able to pull out of any chest was +3.

The Rogue in party said to just buy on off AH, but the Sor said “This is my first toon and I just don't have that kind of plat.”

Jump forward into the quest and what do U know I pull a random unnamed +5 CH cloak out of the end chest. I hadn't check the pluses on it until AFTER I pulled it and was struck dumb* as the quest wasn't a high level AND run on normal.
BUT after my initial shock I asked if the Sor could use a +5 CH cloak. As I was on my cleric and already had a +6 ch item ready to use for next lvl.

The Rogue then spoke up saying, “I want to roll for it!”

I just laughed and said, “The Sor had use for it NOW and what use is it to U?”

He's response was, “I can use it on my Bard!”

“No, the Sor is on NOW and can use it NOW to help the party..... If he wants to give it to U AFTER the party breaks up then that's up to him!” and gave it to the Sor.

Followed by a /RAGEQUIT and 10 min of harassing tells from the Rogue.
I know I didn't make the situation any better by answering every tell with “MY lootz, MY decision.....Ur lootz, Ur Decision!”

* Yes YES, I know, dumb is my NORMAL condition.

[stoolcannon]

In general I'd prefer if people weren't rolling on something just to sell it but I would never stop anyone from rolling. I typically ask "Are you going to use it as a TR?" Regardless of the answer I would let them roll.


My personal rules:

1. YLYC - You pull something from a chest you assign it, loot it as you choose. If however you do announce it's up for roll and let people roll, don't sell it after someone has already rolled and won

2. Raid rules win out - If the raid leader announces all items are for roll, I honor that and place them for roll. I find this to be very rare that a leader asks for this but it doesn't bother me a bit if they do

3. Epic scrolls - Always everyone rolls

Finally, I'm not going to get butthurt over a wizard looting the madstone boots. Many people have plans for their toon after a TR.

[mephistos2]

My advice - Don't count on the loot system to work during pugs, especially on longer raids/rare items. There are simply too many ways to subvert or circumvent the roll method. As a side note, it is often the more experienced players/guilds that are the most creative and successful at this.

Your choice is to call them on it and watch the fireworks or simply ignore it and let them carry on abusing their fellow players. Personally, I like the fireworks :)

[Lorz]

My thoughts on these and a story after.

Situation 1:
Player D won fair and square so it then became HIS loot to do with as he/she/it wanted... No, I don't think it is entirely fair or right BUT still within the UNWRITTEN rule “Loot assigned to U is Ur's to do with as U want.”
And sinse the loot was passed to D, he/she/it can pass it on IF HE/SHE/IT WANTS TO.

Situation 2:
Was the Epic scroll ASSIGNED to the leader or did it just drop and ANYONE could have picked it up? (Haven't run any Epic content yet so I don't know how it drops.)
Was it said BEFORE the run:
A. Anyone could roll.
OR
B. That the leader would give it away.
For A then the Leader was wrong UNLESS there was a REAL GOOD REASON.. and not a weak a#$ one.

Situation 3:
If A said “Roll for it” then A should have stuck by it! An A would be on my /Squelch list for any loot I would give away from then on.
And I would make sure he/she/it would know my feelings by saying “Any one want this (some item) roll for it BUT A!"

And now my lootz story...

I joined a pug party that still had one more spot to fill.
Now while we were waiting for that last spot to fill, I listened to the small talk that the Sor was making. Overheard him say that he really needed a better charisma item as all he had been able to pull out of any chest was +3.

The Rogue in party said to just buy on off AH, but the Sor said “This is my first toon and I just don't have that kind of plat.”

Jump forward into the quest and what do U know I pull a random unnamed +5 CH cloak out of the end chest. I hadn't check the pluses on it until AFTER I pulled it and was struck dumb* as the quest wasn't a high level AND run on normal.
BUT after my initial shock I asked if the Sor could use a +5 CH cloak. As I was on my cleric and already had a +6 ch item ready to use for next lvl.

The Rogue then spoke up saying, “I want to roll for it!”

I just laughed and said, “The Sor had use for it NOW and what use is it to U?”

He's response was, “I can use it on my Bard!”

“No, the Sor is on NOW and can use it NOW to help the party..... If he wants to give it to U AFTER the party breaks up then that's up to him!” and gave it to the Sor.

Followed by a /RAGEQUIT and 10 min harassing tells from the Rogue.
I know I didn't make the situation any better by answering every tell with “MY lootz, MY decision.....Ur lootz, Ur Decision!”

* Yes YES, I know, dumb is my NORMAL condition.

You missed the right answer to the rogue wanting to roll on it......I would have suggested he go buy oon the AH! Because burning them with their own words makes me smile. :). And you did the right thing....just next time tell the Sorc....it's a gift from you to him and do it in /tells and not have to worry about silly little noob rogues coveting your loot.

[ncarter555]

Looting in DDO is tough because it leads to corruption. That is, it allows for people to take ownership of loot regardless of party effort for said loot. This allows for either complete fairness...everyone roll....need verse greed....or "Im sorry but this is my wife in the party and if I ever want sex again, I better not give this epic item to a stranger".

I personally use to like the old VoN loot system. It allowed for the leader only to control the loot....it wasn't designated to a specific person, so anyone who needed it rolled and the leader handed out the rewards. Usually the leader designated looting policy before quest was run. I know, lets point out the corrupt leader scenario, but its easier to police 1 person than it is 12.

In PnP, my party collected loot as we went along and then split it up when we got back to town, based on things, like need, who got last uber item, can you afford it, etc. Realistically, we all bust are arses to get to the loot, and then some random number generator designates who gets it...makes no common sense.

Even in a guild, where everyone shares, you get situations where husbands/wives trade loot unfairly, friends trade loot unfairly and even certain higher members of a guild or people who participate more (can you say WoW) get first dibs on loot.

The thing that makes this situation almost uncontrollable now, is that there is no such thing as class specific loot anymore, because all someone has to say when that Sword of Shadows drops to the mage, is "well, I actually need that because I'm gonna TR a fighter in my next life".....how do you argue against their need then?

2 quick stories since we are telling them:

Guild run - Titan - Busted are but as a guild to finally get this down. I had been a part of 10 previous runs and then we had a husband wife team run it first time with us. Sure enough the belt I wanted (+6 Str/GFL) dropped to the husband cleric and I was preparing to roll...I mean its guild loot right? To my surprise I watched the ownership pass to his fighter wife...end of story....all I could do was stand there in awe.

1 week ago....Fighter Kensai Ring drops in ToD....leader and everyone makes a point to say how hard that ring is to drop...yadda yadda....we had 2 kensai's in the party....monk, regardless of discussion, rolls and wins. To me that was not only wrong but disrespectful. Those are the same people that flick everyone off while driving, because they are behind the safety of their car.

Trust me...I have played on plenty of PvP severs and the honor code mentality is totally lost on this new generation....

Everyone is out for themselves, screw the collective.....it's how every great civilization eventually falls and we are seeing the demise of community die right before are eyes...../sad :(

[Talon_Moonshadow]

If only Turbine had been wise enough to put the epic scrolls inside chests with people's names on them.
/sigh

:(

[Thrudh]

Are the scrolls dropped by a party owned by that party leader by default?

No, that's a totally different mechanic (and one the devs should have NEVER introduced). Dropped scrolls should always be rolled on by the entire party.

[Thrudh]

What about this scenario:

Player A find item in chest.

Player A gives raid item to friend (Player C).

Player B has a fit and yells at Player A, moves on to tells after leaving party.

Player B is the idiot here...

Player A can do whatever he wants with the item.... No one should complain...

Grey area is if Player A puts it up for roll, and then backs out. That's low, but again, I don't blacklist for that...

[Thrudh]

My thoughts on these and a story after.

Situation 1:
Player D won fair and square so it then became HIS loot to do with as he/she/it wanted... No, I don't think it is entirely fair or right BUT still within the UNWRITTEN rule “Loot assigned to U is Ur's to do with as U want.”
And sinse the loot was passed to D, he/she/it can pass it on IF HE/SHE/IT WANTS TO.

He's wrong BEFORE he's given the item. Rolling on something he actually doesn't want.... blacklist... Everyone who wants/can use it should have an equal chance... Having your 3 guild mates roll even though they don't want it just so they can hand it to you is wrong.

[Thrudh]

And now my lootz story...

I joined a pug party that still had one more spot to fill.
Now while we were waiting for that last spot to fill, I listened to the small talk that the Sor was making. Overheard him say that he really needed a better charisma item as all he had been able to pull out of any chest was +3.

The Rogue in party said to just buy on off AH, but the Sor said “This is my first toon and I just don't have that kind of plat.”

Jump forward into the quest and what do U know I pull a random unnamed +5 CH cloak out of the end chest. I hadn't check the pluses on it until AFTER I pulled it and was struck dumb* as the quest wasn't a high level AND run on normal.
BUT after my initial shock I asked if the Sor could use a +5 CH cloak. As I was on my cleric and already had a +6 ch item ready to use for next lvl.

The Rogue then spoke up saying, “I want to roll for it!”

I just laughed and said, “The Sor had use for it NOW and what use is it to U?”

He's response was, “I can use it on my Bard!”

“No, the Sor is on NOW and can use it NOW to help the party..... If he wants to give it to U AFTER the party breaks up then that's up to him!” and gave it to the Sor.

Followed by a /RAGEQUIT and 10 min of harassing tells from the Rogue.
I know I didn't make the situation any better by answering every tell with “MY lootz, MY decision.....Ur lootz, Ur Decision!”

* Yes YES, I know, dumb is my NORMAL condition.

Rogue was an idiot... Rolls are never automatic, even on raid-loot... But on normal chest loot? Come on...

[Thrudh]

My advice - Don't count on the loot system to work during pugs, especially on longer raids/rare items. There are simply too many ways to subvert or circumvent the roll method. As a side note, it is often the more experienced players/guilds that are the most creative and successful at this.

Your choice is to call them on it and watch the fireworks or simply ignore it and let them carry on abusing their fellow players. Personally, I like the fireworks :)

I've had pretty good experiences with the DDO player-base... Mostly we're a mature, generous bunch... I think I only see raid-loot drama maybe 10% of the time...

[Yellfor]

I would have suggested he go buy oon the AH! Because burning them with their own words makes me smile. :).

Thank you!

That is something I had not thought of! :eek:
And it's PERFECT! :D

+1 to U

:TIDE
Thrudh Ur right. My answer to Situation 1 wasn't fully thought out... I skimmed over the part about being in the same guild.....
I would send a tell to the guild leader AND blacklist the players in question.
But I still feel that if the item is given to someone then THAT person can do what he/she/it wants with it.. This may not be the best solution BUT it's by far not the worst.

[testing1234]

situation 1
player gives winner of rolls, winner gives other player for trade/friendship

many people say, guild runs for avoiding this.
this may be true but the tribe mentality guilds create "us and them", is the most common reason this is circumvented in my experience.

saw this last time last week in von funnily enough for the fullplate was surprised someone was willing to go to this length for this item.
first time i didnt blacklist a person doing this since the player who did it was so horrible new to the game i chose to give him the benefit of the doubt never done that before becuse those who circumvent rules are always old players.

[quityourjobs]

Situation 1: Unacceptable.

Situation 2: Hard to say without more information - but most likely unacceptable. If I'm in a group, and I need an epic scroll, I should be able to roll on it, same as everyone else. Downside is that some people roll on scrolls only to sell them later on.

Situation 3: Acceptable. It's nice when people put a valuable item up for roll, instead of cutting a deal, but I can sympathize with those who do.

[sirgog]

Situation 1 - Nurse a grudge against those players and that guild. The next time I put an item up for roll and one of those players or one of their guildies would have won, ignore their roll altogether and tell the party why I'm not accepting their roll.

Situation 2 - Ditto.

In addition, I'd warn guildies never to run with them again (probably via a message of the day post), and if I saw them in PUGs that were led by people I respected, I'd send the leader of the group a message explaining what happened and recommending that they kick them from group.


There's two guilds on Khyber - one that is one of the better raiding guilds - that have such a bad name from things like these that I insta-decline people from those guilds unless I know them personally.

[alcmaeon]

Your loot is your loot is your loot. Do what you will with it. I roll on your loot, I win, you give it to me, its my loot. I get to do what I will with it. If you don't want me to give it away after I win the roll. Say so before the roll. Don't change the rules after the roll.

That being said, at least on Sarlona I don't really see much of this behavior- but than I only pug raids and even than I tend to pug with guilds and folks I know.

Yellfor- the rage tells is why we have a squelch. You don't need to listen to 10 mins of it- squelch him on one.

[mephistos2]

[QUOTE=alcmaeon;3347935] I roll on your loot, I win, you give it to me, its my loot. I get to do what I will with it. If you don't want me to give it away after I win the roll. Say so before the roll. Don't change the rules after the roll.

The whole "your loot" argument kind of breaks down once you Trade/sell/vendor it. Obviously nobody will want you to roll on their loot again if you don't operate on terms of basic good faith ie. you're rolling on something that you genuinely need/want for your own personal use. These are not rules - it's basic common sense and decency you idiot.

[fuzzy1guy]

In all those cases i'd rather not party with any of those involved in the shady **** again..

Which is a major reason why i dont pug much anymore if i can help it. And when i do.. don't bother to roll on anything. loot ALL and get out. even if some bound loot is going to the barkeep right away.


And i will NOT pug epic ever again...


"Hey what was that scroll?"
"What scroll."

[AyumiAmakusa]

Situation 1 - Immediate Blacklist of both participating members. Loot when rolled upon is to be USED and not sold/NPCed/traded immediately.

Situation 2 - If player b can sufficiently prove that he/she will indeed use that item then he/she should get it. However, the loot does indeed belong to the leader so the leader is well within his/her rights to assign the loot to whoever he/she wants to. The player who didn't get the item should just move on and when opportunity presents itself, just say 'Sorry, you can't roll. Remember the time when you refused to give me that scroll? Well, payback is sweet'.

Situation 3 - Your loot, your rules. I, myself, have no arguments here. Might as well not have put it up for roll. Just type 'XXX up for trade. Offer!!' However, a lot of people will not like this behaviour because it is seen as being selfish. Their reasoning is 'Why should I EVER offer loot up for roll for free to you if you NEVER offer loot up for roll for free but sell everything'.