Horc TWF Pally viable?

[snapbk]

about 24 hours till the half orc is public! i still havent decided on my build and some advice or feedback would be appreciated. im more casual then hardcore gamer and realistically this toon may never make it to end game, im more about having fun along the way. ive done some reading and i want to go 18pal/2ftr

im going with the 32pt option, so my base stats would look like this:

STR 16
DEX 15
CON 14
INT 8
WIS 8
CHA 14

i have +2 tomes for all stats at lvl7. i know it might not be so effective with the -2 CHA but would the pally charisma enhancements work around that?

feats:

1: Toughness
F: TWF
3: Khopesh
6: OTWF
9: Improved TWF
F: Improved Crit
12: Greater TWF (can i get this at this level?)
15: ???
18: ???

not really sure on what id want for those blank feats. extend maybe?

skills: enough to tumble, UMD then after lvl7 some balance aswell

not sure on how points many ill spend in each one but these are the enhancements i want

Knight of the Chalice
Courage of Good
Divine Sacrifice
Divine Might
Extra Lay on Hands
Extra Smiting
Exalted Smiting
Racial Toughness
Racial Strength
Paladin Toughness
Follower of the Sovereign Host
Unyielding Sovereignty
Paladin Charisma

i think there is a few more enhancement points in there for anything i might have missed

i dont have any uber gear to twink this toon with, but during the last icegames i bursted some identical keen deception/backstab, cursespew/slowburst, and paralyze/vorpal khopeshs, for the ride through the game. i have some mithril fullplates of various levels, rage and haste clickies and a set of +2 tomes

what do you guys think?

[LookingForABentoBox]

I would take extend spell over OTWF. Heck, a lot of builds do without OTWF altogether but it would be useful if you like epic questing since paladins don't get the same attack bonuses as fighters and barbs

[t0r012]

Just curious as to why would you choose a race with affinity for two handed weapons and a str bonus then not take advantage of either?

as to your feats if you are going pure or with a full BAB splash here are the levels they are first available
1 TWF
6 itwf
9 gtwf

[Aaxeyu]

Just curious as to why would you choose a race with affinity for two handed weapons and a str bonus then not take advantage of either?

Because a TWF Half orc paladin deals more DPS than a THF half orc paladin?

[TFPAQ]

Just curious as to why would you choose a race with affinity for two handed weapons and a str bonus then not take advantage of either?

as to your feats if you are going pure or with a full BAB splash here are the levels they are first available
1 TWF
6 itwf
9 gtwf

unless you are one of those people trying to make the "new" WF Bard build ...

[snapbk]

i do plan on taking the STR bonus. im not sure what its called so i listed it under enhancements as racial strength

[Goldeneye]

Would be a pretty good Paladin. I could imagine some crazy smites.
You should definitely make some Earthgrab heavy Picks for end game!

...However, what if you went THF:

Higher damage per-hit then TWF... though overall damage might be lower.
Drop DEX, and up your CHA will allow you to qualify for higher tiers of Divine Might, as well as increase your LoH

[Meetch1972]

That toon looks more viable than my L20 pally... you should have no real issues playing it. The suckiest part of the whole build you have there is missing out on the pally capstone, but the trade-off is probably largely covered by the Horc's bonuses. I don't think you'll have too much trouble with it. I can imagine throwing on stalwart pact, wielding 2 holy sworded weapons (don't think khopesh is available) or GS weapons, and going to town on them devils.

End game it should be ok, epic ... well it'll probably come down to gear.

Not sure how what level of each enhancement you'll be able to get, but certainly a good proportion of them. Those can always be reset anyway.

I say build and enjoy. :)

[t0r012]

Because a TWF Half orc paladin deals more DPS than a THF half orc paladin?

it wasn't so much a question of which is better TWF or THF that we know the response to.
More like a question of why would you pick a race that gets a bonus to str and not use it?
Attached to why choose a race with a prime stat penalty in a heavy stat requirement build?

The real question is, why choose a race that gimps a pally stats to not take advantage of the races bonuses? I'm trying to be gentle in pointing the OP away from making another of the multitude of the poor pally's floating around.
I mean not knowing what levels the TWF feats are available tells me we aren't dealing with a ton of experience or knowledge here.

Someone is looking to play with the new H-orc toy in the very wrong class. pallys are to easy to gimp , the H-orc str come from Str which is good for a pally but he doesn't take advantage. Then coupled with the fact that pallys are a stat intensive class and he is taking a penalty to a prime stat. Pallys are also way AP starved and H-orcs are a AP heavy race, only partially off set by the fact that he won't be using the H-orc AP lines.
============
Basically what i'm trying to say is, don't make a H-orc TWF pally unless you really, really know what you are doing. You get all of the drawbacks of the race and class compounded and none of the benefits.
You will be much happier with a H-orc THF pally, or just about any other race as a TWF pally.

[LookingForABentoBox]

(don't think khopesh is available)

I say build and enjoy. :)

There is a holy sword khopesh.

No falchion or greataxe though :(

[richieelias27]

Seems to me you just built an ugly Human Pally with -1 feat

[Aaxeyu]

it wasn't so much a question of which is better TWF or THF that we know the response to.
More like a question of why would you pick a race that gets a bonus to str and not use it?
Attached to why choose a race with a prime stat penalty in a heavy stat requirement build?

The real question is, why choose a race that gimps a pally stats to not take advantage of the races bonuses? I'm trying to be gentle in pointing the OP away from making another of the multitude of the poor pally's floating around.
I mean not knowing what levels the TWF feats are available tells me we aren't dealing with a ton of experience or knowledge here.

Someone is looking to play with the new H-orc toy in the very wrong class. pallys are to easy to gimp , the H-orc str come from Str which is good for a pally but he doesn't take advantage. Then coupled with the fact that pallys are a stat intensive class and he is taking a penalty to a prime stat. Pallys are also way AP starved and H-orcs are a AP heavy race, only partially off set by the fact that he won't be using the H-orc AP lines.
============
Basically what i'm trying to say is, don't make a H-orc TWF pally unless you really, really know what you are doing. You get all of the drawbacks of the race and class compounded and none of the benefits.
You will be much happier with a H-orc THF pally, or just about any other race as a TWF pally.

I disagree. HO makes great TWF paladins. I don't see why you would be much happier with a toon with less DPS and no other benefits?

[dkyle]

This needs racial PA enhancements. Without that, I don't think this will out-DPS a Human Pali.

As far as TWF vs. THF: as the game is now, and especially will be in U7, if you want absolute top DPS for a Pali, TWF is the only option. Even for a Half-orc, that +4 damage doesn't make up for ~ 60% more sacrifice, smite, KotC damage procs, not to mention the inherent advantages of TWF all classes get (more crits, more weapon effect damage).

[t0r012]

I disagree. HO makes great TWF paladins. I don't see why you would be much happier with a toon with less DPS and no other benefits?

better than a human or drow? what do you think makes a h-orc twf pally so great? more specifically the OPs build? the snazzy 16 str or the 14 starting cha?
wow you get +2 str from racial Ap line , not really worth starting with only 16 str and 14 cha IMO.

[dkyle]

better than a human or drow? what do you think makes a h-orc twf pally so great? more specifically the OPs build? the snazzy 16 str or the 14 starting cha?
wow you get +2 str from racial Ap line , not really worth starting with only 16 str and 14 cha IMO.

How many TWF Palis start with over 16 STR?
How many non-Drow start with over 16 CHA?

Suppose a baseline TWF Pali has 16 STR and 16 CHA.

Then the loss of 2 CHA for this build means -2 dmg from DMII instead of III. But the Half-orc gains +1dmg/+1att from +2 STR enhancements, and +3dmg/-3att from PA enhancements, for a net +2dmg/-2att. That seems like a reasonable trade-off to me.

[lord_of_rage]

I disagree. HO makes great TWF paladins. I don't see why you would be much happier with a toon with less DPS and no other benefits?

Horc will make a great twf paladin with a 36 point build. Not with a 32pt build. He will need a +4 tome to hit DM3 and wont be able to hit dm4 at all. DM applies equally to both hands unlike str. DM is a huge boost to dps as any paladin player knows. He basicly loses 10 min of +2/+4 dmg per hand per swing. For a 32pt build a THF half orc pally will be the better option. He can hit dm4 and take some of the half orc perks to make him hit harder. If he wants a 32pt twf paladin he is better off going human.

OP I highly advise not splashing. If you want a dps paladin stay pure. You get ds3 and the 3d6 from the capstone. If you do splash 2 rogue and 2 monk are the better splashes.

[richieelias27]

How many TWF Palis start with over 16 STR?
How many non-Drow start with over 16 CHA?
Which makes this build a lesser version of a Drow or Human.


Suppose a baseline TWF Pali has 16 STR and 16 CHA.

Then the loss of 2 CHA for this build means -2 dmg from DMII instead of III. But the Half-orc gains +1dmg/+1att from +2 STR enhancements,
Effectively putting him behind a human in damage as well as skill points, build points, and feats. (Has to raise INT just to get more than 1 skill per level. A human could dump INT entirely. Mind you raising INT to 8 still does nothing, he could have left it at 6.). Besides, a human can take +1 Str enhancement meaning they could be equal on STR damage if it would have been an odd number otherwise.

and +3dmg/-3att from PA enhancements, for a net +2dmg/-2att. That seems like a reasonable trade-off to me.
Which he did not include in his build.

[Dylvish]

Poor OP. He asks if the build is Viable in the opening line, and follows the next line up with he is a casual player and may not even ever see end game..... and the thread has devolved into what others think is the best min/max.

My buddy has a Dwarf pally with DA's, and does very well with it. My guildy is also a Dwarf pally (although he is 2hf) and does very well also. The -2CHA hurts, but its not that brutal.

I would recommend you change around some of your enhancements, but the build will work. GTWF Is at 9 BaB. The build is viable, and will work fine, although I do recommend the same as someone else above posted, I would try to stay pure if possible. At early to mid game you will do very well, at later levels (if you get that high) the lesser DM damage will be noticeable. Its damage will be made up a bit by the Racial PA, but you will also miss more because of the same enhancements.

All that being said, I have to agree with others that a 2handed fighting build would serve you better I think. The bonuses favor it nicely, as well as the stats (Id lean towards 18/9/14/8/8/15, which would let you get 10 dex and 16 cha with simple +1 tomes very early on, and a 25 base STR at cap if you pick up the racial).


Just ideas and food for thought. :) Luck with your snaggle-toothed Siberian Avenger.

[dkyle]

Which makes this build a lesser version of a Drow or Human.

How do you feel about WF Palis? They face the same stat problem HOrcs do, yet they are quite popular. Base stats aren't everything. Enhancements and other perks can make up for lower stats.


Which he did not include in his build.

That's a mistake of this particular build, but you were questioning the worthiness of HOrc TWF Palis in general.

[richieelias27]

How do you feel about WF Palis? They face the same stat problem HOrcs do, yet they are quite popular. Base stats aren't everything. Enhancements and other perks can make up for lower stats.



That's a mistake of this particular build, but you were questioning the worthiness of HOrc TWF Palis in general.

Not once did I say Half-Orcs make bad paladins. Read more carefully. Notice my repeated use of "This build" before my statements. I questioned this build, and this build alone. I cant sit here and point/counter-point every single Paladin build imaginable, that would be ridiculous. I can only point/counter-point this build right here and right now.

Now had he played to the H-Orcs strengths, perhaps maximizing STR or at least getting up to 18 and taking the Half-Orc enhancements, then that would be a different story. You know, take a race and do something you could not do better with another race.

As for WF: if someone built a WF paladin... proceeded to maximize charisma while leaving CON relatively low... took the Sovereign Host line with TwF and longswords... ignored WF power attack... no healers friend... then yes, I would say the exact same thing.

[dkyle]

Not once did I say Half-Orcs make bad paladins. Read more carefully. Notice my repeated use of "This build" before my statements.

Then the source of my confusion was that you replied to my post, which was on the topic of H-Orc Pali's in general, with discussion about this specific build. I'm not sure why you quoted me if you weren't following up on the discussion I was engaged in.

[lord_of_rage]

How do you feel about WF Palis? They face the same stat problem HOrcs do, yet they are quite popular. Base stats aren't everything. Enhancements and other perks can make up for lower stats.



That's a mistake of this particular build, but you were questioning the worthiness of HOrc TWF Palis in general.

TWF WF Pallys suffer from the same issues as Horc. Only wis gets dumped as well. Both races need 36 point builds to shine. Other than that go thf and max your stat potential. 32pts they just fall short.

[Aaxeyu]

For a 32pt build a THF half orc pally will be the better option.

A THF paladin need like +10 damage over a TWF build to have more DPS, so I still don't see why making a build with less DPS and no other benefits would be better...
You have to look at the big picture, not only look at what base stats you can get.

[richieelias27]

Then the source of my confusion was that you replied to my post, which was on the topic of H-Orc Pali's in general, with discussion about this specific build. I'm not sure why you quoted me if you weren't following up on the discussion I was engaged in.

The person you were quoting was also talking about *this* build. So not sure what to say to ya.

[dkyle]

The person you were quoting was also talking about *this* build. So not sure what to say to ya.

I quoted this post: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3346561&postcount=14

Which is about both HOrc Palis in general and this specific build. Obviously the OP's build is not great. I'm not debating that. I chose to discuss the part about HOrc Palis in general, which I think is debatable.

Although I may have been a bit unclear. By "this build", I was referring to "baseline TWF Pali" I had presented the previous sentence.