If you say you can Tank...

[nerdychaz]

Then you better be able to tank.

/rant on

Mired in Kobolds has never been so hard! When we began the group a fighter joined claiming to be able to tank the dragons no problem. Boy, was he wrong! The tank could not hold aggro at all!

We had five players and were waiting for a 6th (intimitank) but the fighter said he could tank, so we let him. The problem wasn't noticeable until the first dragon, but then it was too late. Of course, I was on my assassin, relying on the tank to tank to be able to do damage. Well, I go in and in less three strikes I have overdamaged the Tank and I take aggro (yes, subtle backstabbing was on). Hit diplomacy and run, try again, same thing! Okay, I need a little distance between me and that dragon and a slower attack speed to maintain sneak attack, pull out the heavy repeater... Three shots (one volley) and I have overdamaged again and I take aggro. Diplo, run, repeat. Finally, I decide to just pull out the shortbow and do ranged sneak attack and count two seconds between shots, that helps, but I still over damage!

Well, we killed the first dragon, but the second dragon, that was tough. We did finally kill it, but not after I had to use a raise dead scroll on our cleric who burned all his SP trying to keep the "tank" healed. (cleric and FVS in quest as well as a hireling, all dead at about the same time). Really, the healers in that quest were exceptional and we couldn't have done it without them.

But my main gripe is this, if you say you can do something, you better be able to do it because we are counting on you! I don't mind playing with newbs, I love it! I will run waterworks all day with a Newb group letting them try to rescue Arlos and such, it is fun to experience the game anew through someone else. But, if you can't do something, don't lie. I never claim to be Uber, but I don't lie about my abilities. My first time in the Vale, I didn't survive 20 seconds and the FVS carried me in his backpack all the way to meridia. I don't claim to be able to perform super-halfling feats, I expect you to do the same.

/rant off

[Vormaerin]

You do realize that tank is rarely used in this community in the original meaning of "defensive oriented aggro manager", right? Most often when someone says tank in this game, they just mean "I do melee".

It could also be that he mostly plays Pugs and hasn't run into a real DPS oriented rogues. Lots of people *still* think rogues have something to do with traps as their main contribution to the game and play them that way.

[nitronisto]

lol that is kind of comical i mean it sucks that it happens in ur group but still a funny / sad and all true, real story.
in EQ and WoW i was in ur shoes as a rogue and after having what u just went though happen to me on a daily/ group basses i finally said ill make my own **** tank that way i know i dont have to worry about agro.
and been playin a pali tank every since. but yeah ddo's idea of a tank and of a rogue are two concepts i have still yet to get my head around. i mean the idea of a rogue not bein ur highest dmg melee to me seems wrong. but then so does seeing some one say ill tank and then think they can keep mob management. why as a tank i dont announce it when i join groups if they figure it out and ask me ok if not i just wait for the *i am a tank * fall on his face then take over and school him..

[nerdychaz]

This is my first MMO and I understand that Tank doesn't mean what it does in other games all the time, but if you repeatedly say "lets start, i can tank the dragon." What is that supposed to mean?

[Therigar]

This is my first MMO and I understand that Tank doesn't mean what it does in other games all the time, but if you repeatedly say "lets start, i can tank the dragon." What is that supposed to mean?

That its Tuesday? :eek:

[AyumiAmakusa]

That its Tuesday? :eek:

Lol that made absolutely no sense whatsoever but it made me laugh.

To the OP, I'm guessing the 'tank' was a capable tank for trash mobs and such and thought he could handle the boss but maybe he overestimated his abilities. So maybe he is a tank, but not a good one against bosses.

[GBantaR]

If you say you can tank...

...don't have 80hp at level 20.

...don't have 0% fort.

...don't kite.

...don't run around hacking in whichever direction seems like it might be the enemy because you didn't bring your remove blindness pots.

...don't sword&board (unless you're more Intimidating than Robert Deniro with a sawed off shotgun, full-body Kevlar and a grudge).

...don't use an invisibility clickie at the first sign of monsters.

...don't deal less damage than the Deepwood Sniper in the group.

...dont be a wizard.

[Aranticus]

If you say you can tank...

...dont be a wizard.

what about sorc?

[PopeJual]

If you say you can tank...

...don't have 80hp at level 20.

...don't have 0% fort.

...don't kite.

...don't run around hacking in whichever direction seems like it might be the enemy because you didn't bring your remove blindness pots.

...don't sword&board (unless you're more Intimidating than Robert Deniro with a sawed off shotgun, full-body Kevlar and a grudge).

...don't use an invisibility clickie at the first sign of monsters.

...don't deal less damage than the Deepwood Sniper in the group.

...dont be a wizard.

I'll agree with all of them except for the last because I ended up tanking the Stormreaver in the Reaver's Bane and it was the easiest time I've ever had in that quest. It a whole lot easier and safer for me to tank the giant myself instead of trying to heal some WF Barbarian that is doing the job.

Yeah, I know it's just the Beaver raid, but I still tanked it with my gimpy Wizard 18/Rogue 2 and I didn't even come close to dying at any point. At this point, I expect that any class can tank most of DDO's content as long as they decide that tanking is really for them and they actually make their character with that in mind. (and when I say most of DDO, I am putting forward ToD as an example of what "any" class probably can't tank.)

[Tobril]

If you say you can tank...

...dont be a wizard.

These are rare, but when you meet wizards who are capable of tanking be prepared to have your horizons widened.

[Aranticus]

These are rare, but when you meet wizards who are capable of tanking be prepared to have your horizons widened.

precisely, didnt a wiz solo vod?

[FluffyCalico]

If you say you can tank...

...dont be a wizard.

My sorc has tanked hound when a full group all said they could not including a level 20 pally, level 20 barb, and level 20 fighter. Its sad when your level 18 sorc has to tank the raid boss because all the level 20 melee say they don't have good enough gear. Especially since in hound all you need is a fog clicky, 350+ hp and heavy fort...

[GBantaR]

Augh! Now wizards around the interwebs hate me!

I'm sure there are wizzies (and sorcs) who can tank. There are also people with 80 hp who can tank because they have 260 ac and +85 saves. But GENERALLY...

[zztophat]

If you say you can tank...

...dont be a wizard.

At the risk of repeating what has already been said: I've tanked hound and Vod with a wizard.


Back on topic:

I had an interesting, similar situation earlier today on my acrobat rogue. A ranger tempest, a ranger with a bow, a paladin, cleric and a wizard. The tempest died early, against the first ogres, exclaiming: "something just hit me for 150!". I asked how much hp he had and he said: "117". The paladin responded: "well I have 205hp and 32ac guess I'll be the tank". I had 217hp and 40ac, as a rogue, I said nothing.

...Long story short (there were deaths, none of them mine), I was the only one doing any meaningful damage to whisperdoom, thanks in large part to sneak attack damage. Which meant that I kept getting aggro, and losing sneak attack damage, then losing aggro. It was a long, long battle, with her life bar only dropping by any serious amount when I was sneak attacking.

[fuzzy1guy]

I bust it up into two groups.

Tank - Absorbs damage and holds agro 100% on them thru intim or dps or hate gen.

DPS - Smacks things with other things until they are dead. May or may not be squishy.


End up directly asking alot of people which kind they are.


As for the mired dragon.. my sorc can tank the junior dragon upto elite. Which suprised alot of ppl at level..
Mommy dragon kicks me around the arena tho.. Debuff is nasty. :D

[Aranticus]

I bust it up into two groups.

Tank - Absorbs damage and holds agro 100% on them thru intim or dps or hate gen.

DPS - Smacks things with other things until they are dead. May or may not be squishy.


End up directly asking alot of people which kind they are.


As for the mired dragon.. my sorc can tank the junior dragon upto elite. Which suprised alot of ppl at level..
Mommy dragon kicks me around the arena tho.. Debuff is nasty. :D

i've seen very few players that play sorc get intim. probably its the int factor but sometimes its stranger that they have points for diplo. a sorc with 11 ranks in intim can be a real help

11 base
15 item
15 cha (assuming just 40 cha)
6 shroud
4 GH
2 head
------
53 intim

this is good for a lot of stuff, ie vod red name orthons, most trash. armed with torc, concord opp, lorriks/leviks, a sorc can easily intim mobs in for a quick sp refill which doing crowd control

[samthedagger]

Tank? What tank? This is DDO! Since when has DDO ever needed a tank?

[FuzzyDuck81]

i've seen very few players that play sorc get intim. probably its the int factor but sometimes its stranger that they have points for diplo. a sorc with 11 ranks in intim can be a real help

11 base
15 item
15 cha (assuming just 40 cha)
6 shroud
4 GH
2 head
------
53 intim

this is good for a lot of stuff, ie vod red name orthons, most trash. armed with torc, concord opp, lorriks/leviks, a sorc can easily intim mobs in for a quick sp refill which doing crowd control

With the new changes to give pallies intimidate as a class skill, i can see yet another role coming up that the mighty tukaw build will excell at...

[Natashaelle]

Then you better be able to tank.

/rant on

Mired in Kobolds has never been so hard! When we began the group a fighter joined claiming to be able to tank the dragons no problem. Boy, was he wrong! The tank could not hold aggro at all!

We had five players and were waiting for a 6th (intimitank) but the fighter said he could tank, so we let him. The problem wasn't noticeable until the first dragon, but then it was too late. Of course, I was on my assassin, relying on the tank to tank to be able to do damage. Well, I go in and in less three strikes I have overdamaged the Tank and I take aggro (yes, subtle backstabbing was on). Hit diplomacy and run, try again, same thing! Okay, I need a little distance between me and that dragon and a slower attack speed to maintain sneak attack, pull out the heavy repeater... Three shots (one volley) and I have overdamaged again and I take aggro. Diplo, run, repeat. Finally, I decide to just pull out the shortbow and do ranged sneak attack and count two seconds between shots, that helps, but I still over damage!

Well, we killed the first dragon, but the second dragon, that was tough. We did finally kill it, but not after I had to use a raise dead scroll on our cleric who burned all his SP trying to keep the "tank" healed. (cleric and FVS in quest as well as a hireling, all dead at about the same time). Really, the healers in that quest were exceptional and we couldn't have done it without them.

I've been in a couple of PUGs like this, and they're just par for the course -- and boil down to PUG leader not having a clue tbh.

It's not that fighter's fault.

That dragon fight is tough, but the right tactics are simple.

Get two mêlée who can keep the aggro on them, or retake it quickly if they lose it, doesn't matter *at all* if these are intimi, DPS, AC Tank, Battle Cleric, STR-based ranger -- just that they're not squishy ones. Enough healing to keep them in good health. Everyone else in group just does whatever else.

Your going into mêlée with a squishy rogue is simply bound to attract aggro with high assassin-type DPS. This is just a fact, and there's no point blaming others for it -- BUT there should have been another mêlée fighter with good survivability, instead of just the one.

You ended up having to do that task because of bad group composition -- your grabbing aggro is just the normal expected result of DPS on the dragon.

[taurean430]

If someone was trying to 'tank' Varath and Sinvala, they may have just bitten off more than they could chew. Varath is CR16, and Sinvala CR21 on normal settings. If I remember right, the intim check for either would be somewhat high for the levels running that quest (maybe 10 + HD + wisdom modifier value). So it would require a fairly high intim to accomplish. Not a problem for a toon who has invested somewhat, but the requirement would straight out exclude most players you see running the quest.

When I read your original post, I pictured the person trying to mash that button and getting nothing at all. Then resorting to hate tanking. Most likely with a shield in one hand, which probably wasn't helping them anyway if both people healing them ran out of mana. Sword and board dps in the majority of cases is not going to hold up against rogue sneak attacks and other forms of dps.

To be honest, I feel sorry for whomever that was. Must have been a real shock for them. I recall a few of us in our guild doing that quest and draining our poor FvS dry of resources. It's a tough, but worthwhile fight. Perhaps next time asking what your 'tank' has for intimidate may help.

[fuzzy1guy]

You don't need intim to hold agro on a sorc. :D

One good crit and they're yours for awhile. Unless you took subtle casting enh's.


Altho i did end up with about 25 some odd intim skill without any pts in it too. Which is enough for many of the trashmobs in the game all the way out to amrath.

People get weird when they see a sorc landing intim too.

[Meowin]

So you´re complaining that you built a great DPS rogue? Hmm...

Anyway, never expect people to know what you know, having played the classes that you have played, having made the same experiences as you did, and even if they use the same words, do not expect their definition to be the same as yours.

Other than that, cool down, enjoy and remember, it´s only a game ;)

Meowin

[Entelech]

I'll have you know that it's quite possible for a Wizard to tank...

...even to specialize as one.

I suspect we'll be seeing quite a few more folks trying it after U7. Right now, I am in the process of gearing mine up, but he should end up with a 60+ intim, 500+ Hit Points, and some reasonably good DR.

He's a Wiz 12 / Fighter 6 / Rogue 2 Human. Gonna TR him to Half Elf once I get a couple Shroud items done.

[Gremmlynn]

I must have spent way to much time playing PvP games where it's not really possible to determine who will be tanking (though against quality opposition it wont be the high defense/low DPS guy). So to me the "tank", AKA target, is whomever is taking focused damage. It's part the healers job to focus heals towards that character. Communication is key, so if the agro switches to the rogue he simply says "heals on XXX" and becomes the tank.