HORC fighter or HORC barb that is the question?

[lord_of_rage]

So HOrcs are upon us. Ive got a ton of twf toons at this point. I have never played a thf barb or fighter. Ive got my wf thf pally and thats it. The my barb, other pallys, rogue,bard, and ranger are all twf.So the question is barb or fighter?

[Trillea]

So HOrcs are upon us. Ive got a ton of twf toons at this point. I have never played a thf barb or fighter. Ive got my wf thf pally and thats it. The my barb, other pallys, rogue,bard, and ranger are all twf.So the question is barb or fighter?

Both will work well, but I think that it synergises better with barb. For one thing, the higher HP make it less risky to take advantage of the higher STR at below 50% health if you are going to use that.

[Consumer]

Both will work well, but I think that it synergises better with barb. For one thing, the higher HP make it less risky to take advantage of the higher STR at below 50% health if you are going to use that.

Fighter is far better. HO should not take the fury line as they already need extra AP for action boosts, power attack and str.

THF Barb is weaker than THF Fighter.

Download A-O's DPS calc and you won't have to rely on thinking.

[lord_of_rage]

Fighter is far better. HO should not take the fury line as they already need extra AP for action boosts, power attack and str.

THF Barb is weaker than THF Fighter.

Download A-O's DPS calc and you won't have to rely on thinking.

Ok how is the Horc fighter better than the Horc barb? Please explain this.

[Goolan]

THF Barb is weaker than THF Fighter.

Have another drink.

[DasLurch]

have Another Drink.

+1 :)

[Goolan]

Ok how is the Horc fighter better than the Horc barb? Please explain this.

That would be your fault for listenning.

[ghettoGenius]

Download A-O's DPS calc and you won't have to rely on thinking.

Yeah, because relying on what other's tell you without question will surely get you far in life.

[PopeJual]

Ok how is the Horc fighter better than the Horc barb? Please explain this.

I imagine that the Horc THF fighter would be better than the Horc THF barb in the same way (and under the same circumstances) that a Human fighter would be better than a Human barb.

[Jiipster]

Ok how is the Horc fighter better than the Horc barb? Please explain this.

Haste Boost IV is just that good.

[t0r012]

personally if I were up to me , fighter. the cap combined with kensai extended threat range tip the scales.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with a H-orc Barb they will be beastly in their own right. But give me some of that sweet,sweet threat range lovin' .

Falchion with 18-20 threat then IC:slash then add kensai III , yummy. Combine that with a 20 starting str , racial and class STR AP lines and All the two +4s to crits from kensai I&II and if you can fit them power attack APs and racial two hander damage bonuses, the numbers are going to be sick.

[Hadrian]

If you absolutely have to kill every Mind Flayer in the room - Fighter Haste Boost - accept no substitutes.

[Deaths_ward]

I was actually going a route other than 2WF, I was thinking Full 20 HOrc Monk, burning things down with Fire Stance, and Fists of Light for that self healing love. I mean sure you're AC is going to be trash, but....really at 36 Strength before anything other than Race/Level/+6 it would make the monks rate of attack....sickening. Throw in some tomes and exc. stat items and it would be gravy.

[lord_of_rage]

That would be your fault for listenning.

I havent listened. I asked him to explain his opinion. Instead of getting informed awnsers I get general statments that are uninformed or contain no viable info. Its like saying x band sucks and y band rules. Well why does x band suck and y band rule?

[lord_of_rage]

I imagine that the Horc THF fighter would be better than the Horc THF barb in the same way (and under the same circumstances) that a Human fighter would be better than a Human barb.

Again explain. Dont make generalizations.

[lord_of_rage]

Haste Boost IV is just that good.

Haste boost 4 is indeed sweet. I love it on my str assassin. But again its a generalization.

[Aaxeyu]

Fighters deal more DPS than barbs.
Half orc have better synergi with fighters than barbs due to the extra boosts, it's simply great.

Barbs are meh, fighters are woo!

[Entelech]

Yeah, because relying on what other's tell you without question will surely get you far in life.

Sadly, it will. Especially if you plan on a career in management.

[Entelech]

As far as the Fighter vs Barbarian heavy math, there are a bunch of things that can alter the equation, and I am too tired to go into it all.

The one thing to remember, which is a nasty trap I see a lot of melees fall into, especially barbarians: JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE A TON OF HITPOINTS DOES NOT MAKE YOU A TANK.

You either need a way to mitigate the aggro you draw down on yourself, or you need a way to take less damage. Otherwise, all you're doing is sucking your healer's mana dry.

Every time someone rolls a Warforged Barbarian with no Healer's Friend, Dol Dorn kills a kitten.

[Quikster]

As far as the Fighter vs Barbarian heavy math, there are a bunch of things that can alter the equation, and I am too tired to go into it all.

The one thing to remember, which is a nasty trap I see a lot of melees fall into, especially barbarians: JUST BECAUSE YOU HAVE A TON OF HITPOINTS DOES NOT MAKE YOU A TANK.

You either need a way to mitigate the aggro you draw down on yourself, or you need a way to take less damage. Otherwise, all you're doing is sucking your healer's mana dry.

Every time someone rolls a Warforged Barbarian with no Healer's Friend, Dol Dorn kills a kitten.

To some extent i agree. Having a ton of hitpoints is an option for a tank, so long as their hitpoint pool can keep up with incoming damage vs heals. However it really helps to have a full healing spec'd/geared healer to keep you full at that point. I much prefer ac tanks personally, but hitpoint tanks are viable so long as they can control agro, its just going to make the healer work a heck of a lot more :)


As far as fighter v barb, my understanding has been that fighters do more dps at 0 fort, as the fort increases the barb closes the gap and eventually passes fighters at the higher fort levels of certain mobs.

Honestly though, does it really make that much of a difference? Both can deal out damage, a few less points of dps isnt going to be game breaking. Whos to say in and update or two barbs dont surpass fighter. Gunna reroll again then? Not me I have way to many alts to try to constantly stay at the very top of the powercurve everytime a new piece of gear, or a change in combat, or a new pre comes out. JMO though.

[willemvh]

you also need to think of your amout of AP. Your gonna need a ****load of them to pick every single decent update both on fighter as on barb. Even more if your a WF.

I think the best option is looking what is more "fun fun fun" for you to play in and have a good solid playstyle with something you love and something you can do verry good.

In the end the epeen of X more dps isn't goiing to make a fight like quick says its how you and your group handle things and have a group of your class/build and how to get the most out of it.

[Consumer]

you also need to think of your amout of AP. Your gonna need a ****load of them to pick every single decent update both on fighter as on barb. Even more if your a WF.

I have 3 HO builds on the forums and only the TWF Rogue cannot fit in all the HO AP it needs, it is only extra action boost III that it misses.


I think the best option is looking what is more "fun fun fun" for you to play in and have a good solid playstyle with something you love and something you can do verry good.

In the end the epeen of X more dps isn't goiing to make a fight like quick says its how you and your group handle things and have a group of your class/build and how to get the most out of it.

If someone asks what is better they get an answer, if your happy not being optimal that's fine, but some of us like to be the best.

[Thrudh]

Honestly though, does it really make that much of a difference? Both can deal out damage, a few less points of dps isnt going to be game breaking.

Exactly. +1

[Thrudh]

If someone asks what is better they get an answer, if your happy not being optimal that's fine, but some of us like to be the best.

Optimal and best only in a specific set of circumstances.

It's also a terrible addiction to always want to be the "best"... Makes you have to reroll nearly every update... or quit the game in frustration (ala Shade).

3% more DPS when you're at the highest levels of DPS really makes no difference at all. This game is way too easy... No one needs that extra 3% to do well... No one will notice that 3% during gameplay...

Play the class that is more fun... Both will totally kick-ass

[EinarMal]

Optimal and best only in a specific set of circumstances.

It's also a terrible addiction to always want to be the "best"... Makes you have to reroll nearly every update... or quit the game in frustration (ala Shade).

3% more DPS when you're at the highest levels of DPS really makes no difference at all. This game is way too easy... No one needs that extra 3% to do well... No one will notice that 3% during gameplay...

Play the class that is more fun... Both will totally kick-ass

+1 well said

To me the most fun half orc build is going to be Fighter 12/Barbarian 6/Rogue 2. That is what I am going to roll.

You get more versatility, haste boost and rage. Plus you can fit in a few more feats.

The DPS difference between Barb 18/Fighter 2, Fighter 20, and Fighter 12/Barbarian 6/Rogue 2 is negligible depending on what you are fighting.

The Barbarian benefits form being able to use different weapons, and generally higher base damage. The Fighter against the right opponent will deal the most, and the 12/6/2 is in between the two.

Personally I will take the no fail heal scrolls, evasion, skill points, etc... of the 12/6/2 and it is just a little more interesting to play to me.

When DPS is so close you have to look at other factors or you are just being foolish. Hit points, saves, utility still matter unless you are DPS obsessed to the point of being silly about it in my opinion.

[Legohaiden]

.... and its a great way to stay in shape.

[krogyy]

Ok how is the Horc fighter better than the Horc barb? Please explain this.

the key difference of barb vs fighter is the scaling.
fighter dps simply scales better with gear (faster attack speed, better crit profile) while barb has higher baseline damage (more str, viscious damage).
this means that:

undergeared barb > undergeared fighter
well geared barb < well geared fighter
top geared barb << top geared fighter

[Thrudh]

All it will take to put the barbarians on top is to add a undead boss in an end-game raid (Draco-lich anyone?) or something with massive DR to slashing.

Fighter DPS drops off dramatically when not using their signature weapon/class, and of course, if the monster can't be critted, that changes the numbers as well...

Fighters do the most DPS in certain (admitted, many) quests, but not all the time, not everywhere.

They should add in a long quest where there are no shrines, just mana trees/fountains like the Shroud... where fighters will have to use their haste boosts carefully.

[PopeJual]

All it will take to put the barbarians on top is to add a undead boss in an end-game raid (Draco-lich anyone?) or something with massive DR to slashing.

Fighter DPS drops off dramatically when not using their signature weapon/class, and of course, if the monster can't be critted, that changes the numbers as well...

Fighters do the most DPS in certain (admitted, many) quests, but not all the time, not everywhere.

They should add in a long quest where there are no shrines, just mana trees/fountains like the Shroud... where fighters will have to use their haste boosts carefully.


That will put Barbarians on top for that particular boss. For other bosses where Fighters are currently ahead of Barbarians, the Fighters will still be ahead of Barbarians.

That's actually why I phrased my answer the way that I did. Fighters are better at some things. Barbarians are better at some other things. That's a Good Thing(tm).

[Aaxeyu]

As far as fighter v barb, my understanding has been that fighters do more dps at 0 fort, as the fort increases the barb closes the gap and eventually passes fighters at the higher fort levels of certain mobs.

They are closer at 100% fort, but barb never passes fighters unless it's a really long fight.


All it will take to put the barbarians on top is to add a undead boss in an end-game raid (Draco-lich anyone?) or something with massive DR to slashing.

Fighter DPS drops off dramatically when not using their signature weapon/class, and of course, if the monster can't be critted, that changes the numbers as well...

Fighters DPS doesn't drop "dramatically" when not using their signature weapon if the target have 100% fort. What good is +1 crit range and extra seeker damage when you can't crit anyway?

As long as the fight isn't very long, barbarians would be behind even against such a boss. Remember that alot of barbs DPS comes from +3 to crit multiplier for 19 & 20 rolls.

[lord_of_rage]

Thank you for the feedback. I am not looking at being the king. But it has been a while since Ive rolled a fighter. Ive been on a pally kick for so long. I havent played around with fighters at endgame.Cheers for the help.

[Thrudh]

That will put Barbarians on top for that particular boss. For other bosses where Fighters are currently ahead of Barbarians, the Fighters will still be ahead of Barbarians.

That's actually why I phrased my answer the way that I did. Fighters are better at some things. Barbarians are better at some other things. That's a Good Thing(tm).

Yes, that's what I meant... we need more variety, so that fighters aren't on top on all end-game raids. A long raid with multiple bosses spread apart and no shrines (but mana fountain/trees so casters can get SP back) would be interesting.

A boss with high slashing DR would be good (because barbarians can switch to mauls and do basically the same amount of damage).

[Chai]

I imagine that the Horc THF fighter would be better than the Horc THF barb in the same way (and under the same circumstances) that a Human fighter would be better than a Human barb.

You wouldnt happen to be referring to the max dps circumstances where all bursts are being taken into account for the fighter even though theres no way you can click on more than one burst and get the total time for both.

Even then, the difference in DPS is so small that if one player sneezes, the other wins.

I think fighter and barbarian are equally good choices for fighter or barbarian.

[PopeJual]

You wouldnt happen to be referring to the max dps circumstances where all bursts are being taken into account for the fighter even though theres no way you can click on more than one burst and get the total time for both.

Even then, the difference in DPS is so small that if one player sneezes, the other wins.

I think fighter and barbarian are equally good choices for fighter or barbarian.

Mostly I was just thinking that there are some circumstances where a fighter would be better than a barbarian (just like there are some circumstances where a barbarian would be better than a fighter).

I happen to think that the two classes are pretty well matched in terms of usefulness across the entire game for most players.

[Gunga]

HORC BARB is the highest DPS possible in any game.

[OldAquarian]

I am rolling a THF rogue acrobat, just to make you all cry

[stainer]

They should add in a long quest where there are no shrines, just mana trees/fountains like the Shroud... where fighters will have to use their haste boosts carefully.

My Kensai III doesn't run out of boosts in Shroud. He has 11. There is a shrine at the end of every part to recharge. I usually have a few left after Harry is killed in part 5. What kind of groups are you running with?

[MateCarefor]

My Kensai III doesn't run out of boosts in Shroud. He has 11. There is a shrine at the end of every part to recharge. I usually have a few left after Harry is killed in part 5. What kind of groups are you running with?

heh. I believe he meant the trees from the shroud for mana,
not the pace/size/layout of shroud. ;)

[stainer]

heh. I believe he meant the trees from the shroud for mana,
not the pace/size/layout of shroud. ;)

Oh. I got that he was saying fighters had to conserve their boosts in shroud because there wasn't anyway to recharge them.

[ThunderTank]

HORC BARB is the highest DPS possible in any game.


I laughed.
And i have a Tr'd and fully epic'd barb with +4 str tome.

[unbongwah]

Unless you're obsessed with "MAX DPS ALL THE TIME EVERY TIME!!1!" is there some reason the answer isn't just "play what you want?" Either class can be made fun & effective. The trick is finding a build which plays to their strengths and downplays their weaknesses in a way which you consider fun & effective.

[PopeJual]

Unless you're obsessed with "MAX DPS ALL THE TIME EVERY TIME!!1!" is there some reason the answer isn't just "play what you want?" Either class can be made fun & effective. The trick is finding a build which plays to their strengths and downplays their weaknesses in a way which you consider fun & effective.

DON'T TELL ME HOW TO PLAY MY CHARACTER!!!!1!!!one!!eleven

I want to maximise my weaknesses and downplay my strengths in a way that I consider fun and effective.
Backpack riding is a valid lifestyle choice.

[unbongwah]

Backpack riding is a valid lifestyle choice.
So is piking. I was presuming the OP wanted a build who would still be, y'know, welcome in groups even if it wasn't minmaxed; but hey, whatever floats your boat.

[Thrudh]

Oh. I got that he was saying fighters had to conserve their boosts in shroud because there wasn't anyway to recharge them.

Heh, no I meant a quest where there was a way for casters to get back their SP, but no shrines to recharge action boosts...

It could be an interesting challenge where the melee have to be careful with their action boosts and/or even rages...