For the love of the gods: FIX SHIELDS!

[Boromirs]

Ok, I'm done. Shields just ARE BAD. I tried almost every possible way to integrate them into SEVERAL builds, I currently own ALL THE SHIELDS in the game including many randomly generated ones. There is nothing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING redeeming about shields. You can do better dual wielding 2 toothpicks.

I ask the devs to please review shields and make some adjustments to them. Most people just throw their shields out, whenever that oblong shaped image comes up in their loot gen...a sigh leaves the player's mouth (it's like getting coal in your stockings). Please fix shield use so their is a reason for a fighter/paladin/or even a Barbarian to use them. Thanks.

[jwdaniels]

I suggested this in an earlier thread, but allowing the shield to act as a second weapon without requiring shift+attack to shield bash would go a long way toward helping make sword and board more viable.

[theboyftw]

/signed.

look on the auction house, there's 50 pages of shields compared to 2 or 3 pages of everything else.

[KillEveryone]

A sword and board user should never do as much DPS as a THF or TWF.

They are there if you need some blocking DR or are the chew toy and you have meaningful AC and intim to be the chewtoy.

[Mobeius]

Yea I agree with that too. Ranged and Shield combat both need a serious looking at.

[Mobeius]

A sword and board user should never do as much DPS as a THF or TWF.

They are there if you need some blocking DR or are the chew toy and you have meaningful AC and intim to be the chewtoy.

While true and I agree with your statement, but the OP is correct that the current game that sword and board is really pointless almost to the point of uselessness. New players coming in that go sword and board will be hosed end game.

[Thrudh]

Shields need to offer DR even when not blocking and give 10-15 more AC at end game.

[Goldeneye]

I'd like to see shields give more DR.
Imagine:

8 DR standing
20 DR blocking

+Named/special sheilds

would increase the viability of a shield build.

[der_kluge]

Not everyone has the dex needed to dual-wield. Like, every cleric in the game, for example.

[alcmaeon]

Please fix shield use so their is a reason for a fighter/paladin/or even a Barbarian to use them. Thanks.

My barbs love shields. They make fantastic frying pans for dragon steaks!

[PNellesen]

I would imagine this has been suggested in the past (didn't find it in a search, though) but maybe add a bonus to your Trip/Sunder abilities when using a shield? Maybe along the lines of a Command spell, where a single target falls to the ground for a short time? I agree that if you're using a shield, you aren't going to have near the DPS of THF or TWF, but I think you should get some kind of increased chance to knock the enemy down or stun it briefly if used correctly (and if you CAN do this already, I haven't been able to make it happen the few times I've tried shield bashing)

[777shadow]

Generally have found shield works good for skelatons and just to bump base ac as for the shift key i dumped that immediatly as my shield due to the hit shift 5 times and the win sticky key thing found the change to keypad delete to work well as i use the 0 ins keypad key for jumps I have small hands for a man but indeed there are some temporal issues when using the shield Such as let me hit with shield then with weapon without the whole stop and pause type think about for a min then do what told so agree needs something but lack the definituion of what and {Last but not least } A jump up shieldbash on landing seems to do much damage! And if dont like use on oozes that take care of it quick lol

[DelScorcho]

This should be posted in the suggestions forum IMO. FOR THE LOVE OF THE GODS please post in the appropriate forum ...

[Legohaiden]

Yeah the DR on sheilds is horrible... id much rather wield another weapon.


Sheilds only take away from any character the way they are currently implemented.

[Teldurn]

From a low-mid level cleric's point of view, finding a devotion/potency shield means better heals plus increased AC while AC still matters.

[NeutronStar]

Double the AC value of Shields (including the Enhancement part)

How it is now: +5 Hvy Steel Shield = +7 to AC

How it should be: +5 Hvy Steel Shield = +14 to AC

[BurnerD]

Personally I lean towards an improvement in DR for both shields and heavy armor. Without beating the much dead horse about the definition of AC it does make more sense that a charcter wearing heavy armor and using a shield should be able to use those items to mitigate a substantial amount of damage thrown at them. Unfortunately the 100% level of fortification that is common at end game basically eliminates the chance for a critical strike at a weak point in armor.

Maybe high DR armor and shields should be implemented that have a fortification penalty attached.

Example: +5 Adamantine Tower Shield with 20DR and 3% Fortification Penalty. This shield does a great job at absrobing blows, but if by chance a blow gets by the shield the size and weight of the shield hampers the user from mitigating a critical hit....'

[samthedagger]

What is most interesting to me is that in medieval combat, the chief advantage of a shield was that it was both and offensive AND defensive weapon, sometimes every bit as deadly as the warrior's sword. On an episode of Deadliest Warrior, this was highlighted in the battle between the Spartan and the Ninja, where the Spartan's shield granted the Spartan about 350 kills out of a thousand contests, more than his spear. The shield was a game winner. Used properly, it can block and deflect blows in traditional hand-to-hand combat in addition to being an extremely potent offensive weapon. The edge of the shield packs a huge wallop, benefiting from the full force of the hips all the way to the tip of the hand when swung properly, so that being hit with the edge of the shield has enough force to kill you several times over.

Only a foolish warrior ever used a shield purely as a method of blocking blows. The shield can be used to knock your opponent down, strike an opportunistic blow, or just keep your opponent off-balance. If was the OFFENSIVE qualities, not the defensive qualities, that made a shield a mainstay of medieval weapon combat. The defensive aspects were more of a side-benefit. Great for hunkering down when trudging forward under a hail of arrows, but otherwise defense was hardly its chief use.

As a gimmick, a shield can be fun, but DPS is king in this game. A shield should be able to add a respectable benefit to damage as well as defense. Feats should be required of course (to represent the large amount of time it takes to be GOOD with using a shield as a weapon), but it should at least be an option.

[Meretrix]

What is most interesting to me is that in medieval combat, the chief advantage of a shield was that it was both and offensive AND defensive weapon, sometimes every bit as deadly as the warrior's sword. On an episode of Deadliest Warrior, this was highlighted in the battle between the Spartan and the Ninja, where the Spartan's shield granted the Spartan about 350 kills out of a thousand contests, more than his spear. The shield was a game winner. Used properly, it can block and deflect blows in traditional hand-to-hand combat in addition to being an extremely potent offensive weapon. The edge of the shield packs a huge wallop, benefiting from the full force of the hips all the way to the tip of the hand when swung properly, so that being hit with the edge of the shield has enough force to kill you several times over.

Only a foolish warrior ever used a shield purely as a method of blocking blows. The shield can be used to knock your opponent down, strike an opportunistic blow, or just keep your opponent off-balance. If was the OFFENSIVE qualities, not the defensive qualities, that made a shield a mainstay of medieval weapon combat. The defensive aspects were more of a side-benefit. Great for hunkering down when trudging forward under a hail of arrows, but otherwise defense was hardly its chief use.

As a gimmick, a shield can be fun, but DPS is king in this game. A shield should be able to add a respectable benefit to damage as well as defense. Feats should be required of course (to represent the large amount of time it takes to be GOOD with using a shield as a weapon), but it should at least be an option.

That is true and I did see that episode, however the balance wouldn't work as a well in this type of game. We already have options for those who would like to trade defense for offense. the problem is that the trade off currently is a no brainer. Shields simply need to be a viable alternative to extra dps.

..also the Spartan shield was a very powerful offensive weapon but shields in general were used primarily for defense, just look at the Persian's wicker shields for instance.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Shields are a defensive piece of armor. And should work as such in DDO.


There should be great defensive value in using one.

The armies of the past did no tuse two weapons, they used one weapond and one shield....because it had an advantage.

It balanced defense and offense.


And IMO, even if you make no change to how AC works in tis game, you should be able to come up with feats and shields that have great defensive power at end game.



But..this is also a fantasy game.

300 Spartans should be able to crush some skulls with their shields from time to time.

And I still want Captain America's shield. :D

I don't think the current sytem of shield bashing is bad.......at first. But there needs to be a way to beef it up, and make it valid at end game as well.

More feats, more shield effects, more named shields....and crafted shields.

Defensive primarily, but offensive ones as well are needed.

[Mockduck]

My fighter Beefheart is about 90% two handed fighting now and about 10% sword and board with bastard swords (yeah, I don't care if bastard swords aren't the best thing out there, it's a special build for a 'special' and much-beloved personal character.) Using shields with a bastard sword seems to fall in the "not too bad" category for me. I've been doing decent damage and sometimes find the additional shield properties can help me out. Still, he's mostly THF for multiple gameplay reasons. Every now and then though I like the sword and board.

[KillEveryone]

Not everyone has the dex needed to dual-wield. Like, every cleric in the game, for example.

Use a greataxe, falchion, or a greatsword.


Personally I lean towards an improvement in DR for both shields and heavy armor. Without beating the much dead horse about the definition of AC it does make more sense that a charcter wearing heavy armor and using a shield should be able to use those items to mitigate a substantial amount of damage thrown at them. Unfortunately the 100% level of fortification that is common at end game basically eliminates the chance for a critical strike at a weak point in armor.

Maybe high DR armor and shields should be implemented that have a fortification penalty attached.

Example: +5 Adamantine Tower Shield with 20DR and 3% Fortification Penalty. This shield does a great job at absrobing blows, but if by chance a blow gets by the shield the size and weight of the shield hampers the user from mitigating a critical hit....'

This idea I like but I'd still probably go THF or TWF and only use the shield in certain situations.

The game is unfortunately about DPS.

There should be a benefit for using shields but it shouldn't really be DAMAGE AND AC AND DR. If you couldn't get hit or take damage while DPSing then there wouldn't be any point to TWF or THF.

In earth history, the shield was used effectivly. Armor also mattered. A slashing sword would be mostly useless on a full plate wearer and you had to bash and bash unless you could stab into a weakly protected area. Ranged combat could actually do something and was effective. Real life doesn't really translate well into a game.

In the game, unless you grind gear for that magical AC number, it is fairly useless. In the game, I feel the shield is more about defense and DR but not damage. If you want DPS, a second weapon or go with a two hander and forget the shield.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Oh, and I think a Tower Shiled should provide complete protection from ranged attacks while actively blocking.

Maybe prevent tumbling from working while carrying a Tower Shield though, to prevent moving while blocking with one.

Cause my understanding of them, is that is exactly what they were used for in RL.


And in a fantasy game, I don't think it is unreasonable for a magical shield to be able to completely block a fireball or Dragon's breath either.


Obviously some balance is required though.

[Jendrak]

I'd like to see shields give more DR.

Imagine:

8 DR standing
20 DR blocking
+Named/special sheilds

would increase the viability of a shield build.

Yeah this would be awesome.....wait a minute *looks at figters character sheet*

Hey it alreadys works this way :rolleyes:

[Mr_Tank]

... I currently own ALL THE SHIELDS in the game including many randomly generated ones.

To own ALL the shields in the game is impressive. How did you loot all the shield fragments to make the necro shields? I must know so that I to can own them ALL. Yes shields are next to worthless and need to be buffed a bit, but do not make such broad statements that are untrue.

[badbob117]

We need gs shields. That would be sweet. Make it have the same upgrades as we could give our weapon. A earth grab or freezing ice shield with some exceptional stats would be pretty awesome. It Would give you a reason to actually bash with it. One can only dream i guess . :/

The necro shields also need some love. those shields look cool and are pretty hard to get ,but the effects on em are not worth the grind. Devs really gotta look at these and then ask themselves if it is worth the grind. For me it is not worth the grind at all. I know one person with one of those shields and it is used strictly for cosmetics..!

[Memnir]

Just add glancing blows to shield-bash. That'll fix it, right?

[Dylvish]

I like the idea of letting shield bash be part of the attack chain when S&Boarding, and increasing its standing DR a bit. It still would not be as much dps as someone whipping around 2 khopeshes, but it would be viable at least, and offer more defense, helping the balance out.

[Gremmlynn]

How about passive shield block mitigating a % of hit's like blur/displacement does?

Or having them raise the auto-miss to something higher than a 1? So an ACnothing character with a shield and some investment in it might be missed on any roll of 4 or less rather than just a 1 regardless of what's swinging at them for instance. Though this wouldn't be any help for those with the AC to already be missed on a 4.

[Narmolanya]

I'd like to see shields give more DR.
Imagine:

8 DR standing
20 DR blocking

+Named/special sheilds

would increase the viability of a shield build.

I agree with you that this is the direction shield use needs to go. S&B should not do as much damage as TWF but there should be the benefit of damage reduction. There needs to be a trade off in using S&B unfortunate right now there is no significance to not gong TWF or THF.

[Tumarek]

... this was highlighted in the battle between the Spartan and the Ninja...

you lost all credibility when you said this ^_^

[Gremmlynn]

I agree with you that this is the direction shield use needs to go. S&B should not do as much damage as TWF but there should be the benefit of damage reduction. There needs to be a trade off in using S&B unfortunate right now there is no significance to not gong TWF or THF.Except with fixed values it makes one all but untouchable at low levels, where S&B is already useful and possibly could become not worth the loss of DPS at the top end. Something % based would be more balanced at any point in the game.

[Tumarek]

Except with fixed values it makes one all but untouchable at low levels, where S&B is already useful and possibly could become not worth the loss of DPS at the top end. Something % based would be more balanced at any point in the game.

Maybe like the active DR is already,,, it goes up with enchantment bonus of the shield. So you could get the max DR at level 9, what sounds fair enough to me.

Lets say we get a stackable 1/- DR per Enchantment + of the shield, one would get 5 + 3 from an adamantid Plate. A DR of 8 (or 10 with Giantsplate) at level 9 sounds fine and worth it. Even if people keep yapping on how everything is useless except DPS i think this could make tactical fighters very effective.

Maybe add +1 DR for light, +2 for normal and +3 DR for Towershields. That would add up to 11 passive DR at level 9 not earthshaking but will give a great option for melee's.

[Aesop]

I've already put this out there in other threads

also as I'm doing this off the top of my head it may not match what I initially said anyway...



Offense:

1. Change Improved Shield Bash
1a. Have the Improved Shield Bash feat grant a % chance to proc a Shield Bash attack similar to the way TWF was made to proc.
1a1. Depending on implimentation this could be a flat rate or could be based on BAB or some other method... I'm thinking a comibination of the two would be best. Perhaps 25-30% base +1% per BAB with certain PrEs possibly adding as well. This would add dps but not so much as to threaten wither TWF nor THF by any stretch. 50-60% would likely be the highest this ability should reach

2. Impliment Shield Crafting
2a. This does NOT have to be like Greensteel Crafting.
2b. Have the Enhancement Bonus apply to both offense and defensive traits.
2c. Make Shield Spikes as dropped and/or Crafted items that can be permanently attached to any shield via the Stone of Change.
2c1. These Spikes could have offensive statistics or possibly additional defensive statistics that allow for furth shield customization. Those who do not wish to invest in offensive shield fighting can make shields with additional guard effects while those invested can make offensive enhancements and abilities.



Defense:
1. AC isn't the only method of Defense and as it stands has become an improbable factor to reasonably balance in the game.

2. Shield Proficiency should grant a small chance that successful incoming attacks could be passively blocked as part of the flow of combat. Thus occassionally applying the Shield Blocking DR to a successful attack as though the character had been actively blocking.
2a. Perhaps light and heavy shields could have a 10% base chance with Tower Shields granting a 15% base chance
2b. The Shield Mastery Feats and heavy defensive PrEs could add additional % chance to apply Blocking DR to successful incoming attacks.

3. Perhaps a Shield Ward feat could be added to apply an extra benefit against AoE attacks reducing damage below 50% on successful reflex saves.
3a. Perhaps with that feat you'd have Reflex for 1/4 instead of Reflex for half.



All Together:

Viable offense while not being primarily offensive combined with real defensive capabilities as opposed to false preceived ones. These offensive capabilities would add to damage but would not threaten more offensive minded styles like TWF and THF for DPS supremacy.

Certain possibilities do exist to improve the defensive abilities of TWF and THF as well.

Improved Buckler Defense could be added to allow THF to use Bucklers in there off hand while imposing a small Attack Bonus penalty.

TWD and TWB should be combined into a single feat and possibly add some passive Blocking if taken though the amount should not reach the defensive potential of Sword and Board.

Mechanically combat would be about more than absolute maximums of one type or another and allow for more styles to be viable... now if we could only balance ranged combat as well


Aesop

[nitronisto]

see as a pali and snb / tank build this kind of thread kind of anoyes me and here is why.
this is almost like me sayin why should a dps be allowed 80 ac with dex bonus in cloth armor, so hes more nimble that doesnt mean he should be able to get that high in less armor. but its the way the game is so w/e

i mean lets really sit down and look at this:
eveyone says twf and 2hf is more dps .. well really it took u that high of a iq to understand in games like in rl that swinging a huge stick or 2 sticks will do more dmg to someone and hit them more often vs 1 small one. i mean like bringing a knife to a gun fight. and sayin well the gun will do more dmg.......

snb dont do as much dmg as the other's well yeah thats because ur swinging one hand its not ment to be the 1 shot hero.

so what do u snb for well, i find it nice for when i get 5 mobs on me in the game i dont have to worry about them to much unlike the dps were the race is on for who can burn who first.
my sheild covers my side so mobs have a harder time geting the + hit on me

now do i like the current snb / sheild set up, no i think they are boring and show little imagination from a mmo based on a pnp game were the armor inventory is mind blowing.
with the idea that a tower shield like a BS and keph take a feat or a muti class to get i think they should incorporate a even higher ac and DR and that goes for standing and blocking cause personally i hate to hide behind my shield as a tank, unless i have to. i use its's extra AC to round my ac numbers up so i can hold agro take the beating for the dps and keep the healers from yellin i cant heal u, your takin to much dmg and i do agree with Aesop on some of the ideas for Off/ Def on the shields
so thats my rant for the topic thanks for reading

[PopeJual]

Ok, I'm done. Shields just ARE BAD. I tried almost every possible way to integrate them into SEVERAL builds, I currently own ALL THE SHIELDS in the game including many randomly generated ones. There is nothing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING redeeming about shields. You can do better dual wielding 2 toothpicks.

I ask the devs to please review shields and make some adjustments to them. Most people just throw their shields out, whenever that oblong shaped image comes up in their loot gen...a sigh leaves the player's mouth (it's like getting coal in your stockings). Please fix shield use so their is a reason for a fighter/paladin/or even a Barbarian to use them. Thanks.


This thread is unlikely to get any neg rep for you. Please reformulate your original post if you want to receive your customary rep points.

[Gremmlynn]

Maybe like the active DR is already,,, it goes up with enchantment bonus of the shield. So you could get the max DR at level 9, what sounds fair enough to me.

Lets say we get a stackable 1/- DR per Enchantment + of the shield, one would get 5 + 3 from an adamantid Plate. A DR of 8 (or 10 with Giantsplate) at level 9 sounds fine and worth it. Even if people keep yapping on how everything is useless except DPS i think this could make tactical fighters very effective.

Maybe add +1 DR for light, +2 for normal and +3 DR for Towershields. That would add up to 11 passive DR at level 9 not earthshaking but will give a great option for melee's.But would it still be worth the DPS loss at level 20? I mean as it stands the added AC from a shield is still useful at level 9 so extra DR would just be icing. It's at the higher levels that S&B needs help.

[AcesWylde]

Add Improved Bull Rush (the ability to push back), and give Improved Shield Bash the ability to knockback or knowckdown your opponent.

I had a PnP Morninglord of Lathander (cleric) with Improved Bull Rush, Improved Shield Bash, and Furious Charge (bonus to charge attacks). He'd charge into the fray and ram with his shield before swinging his morningstar, sometimes knocking down or pushing back his opponent. I missed that when I started playing DDO.

I can't tell you how many times I've come up on a row of archers standing next to a ledge, and wish I could ram one of them and push them off the ledge. (they need to take falling damage as well, LOL)

That would give S&B a viable tactic using shields. ;>

[Boromirs]

What I'm seeing here is not merely an extra style of play (other then THF, TWF etc.) but an entire new TYPE OF GAMEPLAY that the Dev's have missed about their very own game.

Try playing the game in first person view (ZOOM all the way in so you basically see right above your own head or right out of your characters eyes) now for the first few levels I tried playing the game litterally like a FPS with my shield. I would jump out of the way/shield block/then get a few stray hits in with my bastard sword when I see a opening (read as: when the mob is not attacking).

This is AMAZINGLY FUN to play, ALL THE QUESTS get a new breathe of life when playing this way. It feels like you're kinda watching a movie in many ways. (TRY IT BEFORE YOU SCOFF). Plus, you feel like you're actually using your own skill rather then depending upon the numbers on your character sheet.

Problem is, that shields are SO bad that this model breaks down. Because A.)Mobs start attacking too fast to block then counter attack. B.) The DR doesnt really matter anymore toward the upper levels..especially when you hit cap. (at least when not raid tanking..which is pretty much the ONLY time a shield pops up into view in the game).

[Chai]

A sword and board user should never do as much DPS as a THF or TWF.

They are there if you need some blocking DR or are the chew toy and you have meaningful AC and intim to be the chewtoy.

The people who make video game mechanics should study a little real life martial arts before saying things like this and using words like never.

I've got a couple of weapon and shield forms that are more dangerous than straight weapon forms by far.

The whole 2 weapon fighting as a game mechanic is vastly exagerated from real life. If games were even remotely close to reality in their balance, 2 handed fighting would do more damage, followed by S&B. All the drizzt wanna be's would come in last.

I also smirk at "meaningful ac" banter in DDO. S&B is outed by a few drizzt wanna be's in pajamas, with no where near the same sacrifice in DPS. If you intim a raid boss once you will end up on more blacklists than group lists from what I read on the forums lately. :p

[FlyingTurtle]

We just need to be able to dual-wield 2 shields with a stackable AC/DR bonus, and have the off-hand shield bash proc at the same rate as for TWF.

It would look AWESOME.

The only thing more AWESOME than that would be allowing the shield also to be equipped as an item of clothing (take off your armor, then strap it on your back). TRIPLE SHIELD FTW!

[azrael4h]

My barbs love shields. They make fantastic frying pans for dragon steaks!

You joke, but I pugged the other day with a S&B Barbarian. Between him and the 6 con squishy elf ranger pew pew pewing, and the equally squishy zerg wanna be fighter who kept dieing and making me go drag his butt to a shrine, it was... less than amusing.

[Tumarek]

But would it still be worth the DPS loss at level 20? I mean as it stands the added AC from a shield is still useful at level 9 so extra DR would just be icing. It's at the higher levels that S&B needs help.

Well lets say if a stalwart III dwarven defender could effectivly block out all damage of an epic mob it could have some merits. At least for mobs that cant be held but can be intimidated. But then again epic is a different game then all the other quests.

Although almost everything in this game can be solved with DPS there are many different tactics that work just fine as well. Making the shield DR tanking safer and helping the shieldwearer out while not blocking somewhat will improve this fightingstyle.

Just adding some DPS to the S&B fightingstyle wont really do much. He still wont do any heavy DPS and his survivability wont improve at all. I think this will not improve S&B at all.

The main problem is that D&D itself gets very buggy at higher levels. AC has the same problem as it does in DDO and many tactics that work great at low to mid levels are not valid around 20. These problems have been partially adressed in DDO but some mechnics are just imbedded deep in the system and will be very hard to fix. S&B is one of them.

[Gremmlynn]

Well lets say if a stalwart III dwarven defender could effectivly block out all damage of an epic mob it could have some merits. At least for mobs that cant be held but can be intimidated. But then again epic is a different game then all the other quests.

Although almost everything in this game can be solved with DPS there are many different tactics that work just fine as well. Making the shield DR tanking safer and helping the shieldwearer out while not blocking somewhat will improve this fightingstyle.

Just adding some DPS to the S&B fightingstyle wont really do much. He still wont do any heavy DPS and his survivability wont improve at all. I think this will not improve S&B at all.

The main problem is that D&D itself gets very buggy at higher levels. AC has the same problem as it does in DDO and many tactics that work great at low to mid levels are not valid around 20. These problems have been partially adressed in DDO but some mechnics are just imbedded deep in the system and will be very hard to fix. S&B is one of them.As I said before though. Add a X% of hits just plain miss shield users regardless of AC. This would scale by level as well as being as effective against low damage sources as it would against large damage sources, which DR isn't. So one equips a shield and gets maybe a 5%, 7.5% or 10% chance (for light, heavy or tower) of simply blocking all the damage from any physical attack that would otherwise hit. Add some bonuses for feats enhancements etc. and have it stack with displacement/blur. With this, pulling out a shield will always mitigate some damage in a pinch and it makes borderline useful S&B AC possibly worth putting the twohander away for.

[Tumarek]

As I said before though. Add a X% of hits just plain miss shield users regardless of AC. This would scale by level as well as being as effective against low damage sources as it would against large damage sources, which DR isn't. So one equips a shield and gets maybe a 5%, 7.5% or 10% chance (for light, heavy or tower) of simply blocking all the damage from any physical attack that would otherwise hit. Add some bonuses for feats enhancements etc. and have it stack with displacement/blur. With this, pulling out a shield will always mitigate some damage in a pinch and it makes borderline useful S&B AC possibly worth putting the twohander away for.

Or maybe a combination of both... some extra DR (maybe not as much as I have advocated) and a miss chance (that also could improve while blocking). And why not just a little extra DPS. Mix them all together and it could work.

[nitronisto]

u know that is one thing that i agree as well on and forgot to mention in my earlier post is they should have it so if a SnB is using his shield then the shield should allow the user to block/ deflect/ miss without bein active, i mean i like the hole idea of a more active game play when fighting it is a step up from the EQ days of turn on auto attack and just fire a few spell when they recharge, so combat has a more real time feel to it. but at the same time with server lag goin up and not down find me one **** snb who will see in real time, have the speed to throw a shield block and lower it....
but i mean even in EQ the tanks hade the ability to block and it was passive..... wow same thing passive blocking, and then when we actively blocked the numbers would reflect it.
yea i know ddo's answer is blur, dusk heart concealment, but i am **** pali!!!!!!!!!! break on my shield not miss because of some spell form the mage!!!!

[stille_nacht]

i really think shields should just give automatic DR

lv1-5 DR:5-
lv5-10 DR:10-
lv10-15 DR:20-
lv15-20 DR:30-

or something along those lines, to make melees consider using shields as a serious alternative to TWF and THF. That might be a little overboard, but i think it still wouldnt reduce the number of non shield users by more than 30%...

[FlyingTurtle]

What I'm seeing here is not merely an extra style of play (other then THF, TWF etc.) but an entire new TYPE OF GAMEPLAY that the Dev's have missed about their very own game.

Try playing the game in first person view (ZOOM all the way in so you basically see right above your own head or right out of your characters eyes) now for the first few levels I tried playing the game litterally like a FPS with my shield. I would jump out of the way/shield block/then get a few stray hits in with my bastard sword when I see a opening (read as: when the mob is not attacking).

This is AMAZINGLY FUN to play, ALL THE QUESTS get a new breathe of life when playing this way. It feels like you're kinda watching a movie in many ways. (TRY IT BEFORE YOU SCOFF). Plus, you feel like you're actually using your own skill rather then depending upon the numbers on your character sheet.

Problem is, that shields are SO bad that this model breaks down. Because A.)Mobs start attacking too fast to block then counter attack. B.) The DR doesnt really matter anymore toward the upper levels..especially when you hit cap. (at least when not raid tanking..which is pretty much the ONLY time a shield pops up into view in the game).

There's a game I'd recommend if you like that: Mount and Blade; and its sequel Warband.

[Caia30]

Shields mean little by even mid levels. (They are a decent AC boost prior to say level 7, but rapidly go downhill.) I'd suggest that those using a shield get a bonus to their attacks. As blows glance of their shield, the mob would be slightly off balance. What better way to show this than by giving a bonus to hit? I haven't crunched the numbers, but there is SOME number that would work well and keep it in line with Two-handed weapons.

[Hirosue]

What is most interesting to me is that in medieval combat, the chief advantage of a shield was that it was both and offensive AND defensive weapon, sometimes every bit as deadly as the warrior's sword. On an episode of Deadliest Warrior, this was highlighted in the battle between the Spartan and the Ninja, where the Spartan's shield granted the Spartan about 350 kills out of a thousand contests, more than his spear. The shield was a game winner. Used properly, it can block and deflect blows in traditional hand-to-hand combat in addition to being an extremely potent offensive weapon. The edge of the shield packs a huge wallop, benefiting from the full force of the hips all the way to the tip of the hand when swung properly, so that being hit with the edge of the shield has enough force to kill you several times over.

Only a foolish warrior ever used a shield purely as a method of blocking blows. The shield can be used to knock your opponent down, strike an opportunistic blow, or just keep your opponent off-balance. If was the OFFENSIVE qualities, not the defensive qualities, that made a shield a mainstay of medieval weapon combat. The defensive aspects were more of a side-benefit. Great for hunkering down when trudging forward under a hail of arrows, but otherwise defense was hardly its chief use.

As a gimmick, a shield can be fun, but DPS is king in this game. A shield should be able to add a respectable benefit to damage as well as defense. Feats should be required of course (to represent the large amount of time it takes to be GOOD with using a shield as a weapon), but it should at least be an option.


Sparta is not medieval . It would fall under the heading of Ancient.
Sparta existed roughly 10th centuary BC to 195 BC
medieval is generally considered to be 1066 AD to 1485/1500 AD

As for the deadliest warrior . it shows an exteremly untypical 1 vs 1 so called duel. Spartan soldiers fought in a Phalanx.

try reading some historical journals rather than basing your so called historical knowledge on pulp T.V. junk ( the deadliest warrior) and/or garbage films such as 300.

[Maldavenous]

The major issue with shields is that they offer very little you can't achieve with a dual wield spec. For instance the innate purpose of a shield is to increase the AC of the wielder above those who are not using shields. However due to the fact that splash monk builds have a far greater potential AC than any shield build this is rendered meaningless.

DR while blocking is currently the only positive use of a shield, but DR while blocking means you're dealing 0 damage. You'd likely take less total damage by having 2 heavy hitters than having one guy shield blocking and another dealing DPS, it's all about how long it takes to make the kill.

There are a few occasions where shields work, but they're few and far between and make it very difficult to play a valid shield build.

Shields do grant damage reduction against grazing hits, but that's pretty negligible when you consider how much damage that is at a time.

My suggestion is the creation of a Sword and Shield feat like the Two Weapon Fighting and Two Handed Fighting feats. This feat would give you increasing chance of double striking with your main hand while wielding a shield. This could go a long way towards balancing TWF and S&B styles.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

Not everyone has the dex needed to dual-wield. Like, every cleric in the game, for example.

Only cause you haven't seen my dex cleric. He's only got 8 con, but that just means I only ever have to hotbar CLW.

[kafrielveddicus]

and........

While they are at it, they can fix the new House Phiarlan Shield so that it doesnt block buffs from your allies and prevent Raise Dead spells!!!

[Gremmlynn]

My suggestion is the creation of a Sword and Shield feat like the Two Weapon Fighting and Two Handed Fighting feats. This feat would give you increasing chance of double striking with your main hand while wielding a shield. This could go a long way towards balancing TWF and S&B styles.I don't see how this alone fixes shields. Your shield is still likely not doing you much good and you still don't do as much DPS as those who don't use a shield.

Now if we do this in conjunction with an across the board useful increase in protection for equipping a shield I could see it working. Then we can have a workable defense build that is hit on a 6 or better, rather than the 2 or better no shield would grant, that is double hitting with a bastard sword and getting glancing blows while mitigating extra damage via increased DR or avoiding hit's due to the shield. Something like this might just be worth giving up the ability to take down threats faster for. Not likely without a reliable way of taking agro off the heavy hitters to give having that extra protection some use. But at least a group with all melee characters like this would likely have a chance of having some fun.

[samthedagger]

you lost all credibility when you said this ^_^

It was actually a pretty good episode [Spartan vs. Ninja]. One of the more memorable. I also enjoyed Pirate vs. Knight. If you haven't ever watched Deadliest Warrior, I suggest you hop on over to Spike TV and watch a few. Very entertaining if you like historical combat, medieval weapons and such. They have also started to do some more modern stuff like Swat vs. GS9.

[Kinerd]

What about a Greater Shield Bash feat, that lets the user keep all the benefits from active blocking while attacking normally with a one handed weapon and shield? Let's say minimum BAB +11, prerequisite Improved Shield Bash?

[parowan]

While I sure wouldn't want to get smacked upside the head by a Spartan's shield, it's pretty silly to think that a shield's primary purpose has ever been anything but defensive. The phalanx conquered the known world because it allowed the Greeks a high net DPS (DPS dealt minus DPS received). This entire strategy is what's missing from DDO.

I like suggestions of higher end shields adding far more AC than they do. And passive DR. And special immunities/resistances for high-end tower shields, like breath weapons or traps or missile weapons. And perhaps tower shields should give AC bonuses to other nearby party members (who could shelter behind them)? I also think bonuses to intimidate and concentration would be a welcome modifier on shields.

I'm not against the idea of improving the attack capabilities of S&B either. Perhaps by adding one to the crit multiplier with a S&B feat, or adding one to the threat range? This would reflect the more calculated approach to battle taken by S&B.

While S&B still shouldn't do as much damage as THF, perhaps there should be an AC or fortification penalty for THF, since it's an inherently risky strategy (risk = big danger but big payoff). As for TWF, well that's reached comic book levels of ridiculousness, but I hardly see anyone biting the bullet and backtracking on it.

[Wrendd]

I think the idea (as stated by several other people) is to increase BOTH the defensive and offensive power of S&B. I agree that both need improvement.

As it stands now, a person using S&B can easily have an AC LOWER than a TWF with comparable gear (comparable in rarity/difficulty in finding). That is a bad place for S&B to be. Add to that the decrease in DPS by using a shield and you get the current state of affairs. ie. S&B is a rare specialty in DDO and only really useful in a handful of situations.

The DPS needs to be increased, but not to equal the DPS of THF or TWF, that would be far too much. But I think that they should be within shouting distance of the DPS output of the others. I would hope that a S&B would NEVER be among the highest DPS builds, but right now their DPS is so anemic it is just not fun enough for many people to play. In order to get an effective AC and DPS you need some pretty stellar gear, and that is difficult for many people to get.

Several of the above suggestions have merit, and I hope the devs will take a look at this (and even just a "read by a dev" would be nice). I doubt this is a fix that would make it in with or before U10, but we can hope.

[katana_one]

Add Improved Bull Rush (the ability to push back), and give Improved Shield Bash the ability to knockback or knowckdown your opponent.

So far, this is my favorite suggestion. Knockback in particular would add yet one more tactical option to melee classes that could be a lot of fun.

[Odium]

1. I would like to see them have a proc chance to automatically prevent an attack from going though. I have a shield, its supposed to BLOCK incoming attacks. This can be pretty low and the improve with passive class feats (i am thinking of you, fighter) or enhancement lines, and maybe even active feats

2. Shields are also weapons. i know we have shield bash, but shields bashing can knock a target off balance before an oncomming attack. So maybe a small temporary debuff for when you bash if they fail a save. THey are off balance, so maybe a 5 or 10 sec AC debuff or something like that if the bash is effective.

3. Shields were crafted with spikes, and other items to make them do more offensive. On getting hit, it seems like shields could have a proc to do a small bit of damage (pierce, slashing)

Just a few ideas to make that little shield better. I am not a huge fan of just raising DR; but that is an option i guess.

[Strakeln]

Not everyone has the dex needed to dual-wield. Like, every cleric in the game, for example.

...they can all THF...

[Dirac]

As others have mentioned, shields should provide a cheap way to give a large boost to ac. Currently, at endgame, attaining an ac that is worth anything is very difficult. On a character that does high dps, that high cost is fine. However, it would be be good for characters to have the choice of giving up dps for a meaningful boost to ac by equipping a shield.

[der_kluge]

Use a greataxe, falchion, or a greatsword.



Clerics aren't proficient in greataxe, falchion, or greatsword. What a ridiculous suggestion.

[der_kluge]

Only cause you haven't seen my dex cleric. He's only got 8 con, but that just means I only ever have to hotbar CLW.

*facepalm*

[Qezuzu]

A cleric I duo with gets DR 25 when blocking with a named shield (Levikk's I believe). She also has some good guards.

If you're looking for DPS, shields aren't an option. If you're looking for defense, shields are very viable, especially if you're a caster who won't get much damage from melee either way.

You'll have to take some of the feats for sheilds though. But it's like TWF, it's not useful without the feats.

[Towrn]

Not everyone has the dex needed to dual-wield. Like, every cleric in the game, for example.

Just saying, many of my clerics have the dex for the full TWF line.

[DelScorcho]

An alternative suggestion: Allow a character to equip two shield at the same time for the extra ac bonus and super blocking DR! They can add a PrC, the Doorstop, to really add in the extra bonuses to hitpoints and DR. Because S&B toons would be flocking to this, it really wouldn't cost much party DPS. Also, Turbine could sell sub 2 hour mission completions in the store for some extra cash! Everybody wins!

[psteen1]

I love S&B discussions. Here is another thread if you are curious about some other ideas: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=258742

I have never seen a comment on these threads by a developer though. I have no idea if they read them, if they care, or what. It is frustrating. Maybe they figure fixing it won't bring new money to the table. So in regards to that, I have a great idea. Create a shield crafting system that requires turbine points. Ummm... actually please no but I wouldn't put it past them.

[MrkGrismer]

I'm all for increaseing the defensive properties of shield. Possibly with a 3-tier enhancement line that increases BOTH the AC bonus and DR of equipped shields (perhaps +25%/+50%/+75%). In addition loot shields need to have better properties. I certainly think that any of the properites that add to offensive 'special attacks' (such as trip) should certainly show up on shields, perhaps at higher bonus amounts.

[xberto]

Shields work, they just dont fit into popular play style.

[Bodic]

My FvS loves her Shield

26 blocking DR
+6 saves

All I Have to say

Edit: and my Rogues use 1 until @ 8-12 as AC matters and TWF proc blows goat

[Dylvish]

I've already put this out there in other threads

also as I'm doing this off the top of my head it may not match what I initially said anyway...



Offense:

1. Change Improved Shield Bash
1a. Have the Improved Shield Bash feat grant a % chance to proc a Shield Bash attack similar to the way TWF was made to proc.
1a1. Depending on implimentation this could be a flat rate or could be based on BAB or some other method... I'm thinking a comibination of the two would be best. Perhaps 25-30% base +1% per BAB with certain PrEs possibly adding as well. This would add dps but not so much as to threaten wither TWF nor THF by any stretch. 50-60% would likely be the highest this ability should reach

2. Impliment Shield Crafting
2a. This does NOT have to be like Greensteel Crafting.
2b. Have the Enhancement Bonus apply to both offense and defensive traits.
2c. Make Shield Spikes as dropped and/or Crafted items that can be permanently attached to any shield via the Stone of Change.
2c1. These Spikes could have offensive statistics or possibly additional defensive statistics that allow for furth shield customization. Those who do not wish to invest in offensive shield fighting can make shields with additional guard effects while those invested can make offensive enhancements and abilities.



Defense:
1. AC isn't the only method of Defense and as it stands has become an improbable factor to reasonably balance in the game.

2. Shield Proficiency should grant a small chance that successful incoming attacks could be passively blocked as part of the flow of combat. Thus occassionally applying the Shield Blocking DR to a successful attack as though the character had been actively blocking.
2a. Perhaps light and heavy shields could have a 10% base chance with Tower Shields granting a 15% base chance
2b. The Shield Mastery Feats and heavy defensive PrEs could add additional % chance to apply Blocking DR to successful incoming attacks.

3. Perhaps a Shield Ward feat could be added to apply an extra benefit against AoE attacks reducing damage below 50% on successful reflex saves.
3a. Perhaps with that feat you'd have Reflex for 1/4 instead of Reflex for half.



All Together:

Viable offense while not being primarily offensive combined with real defensive capabilities as opposed to false preceived ones. These offensive capabilities would add to damage but would not threaten more offensive minded styles like TWF and THF for DPS supremacy.

Certain possibilities do exist to improve the defensive abilities of TWF and THF as well.

Improved Buckler Defense could be added to allow THF to use Bucklers in there off hand while imposing a small Attack Bonus penalty.

TWD and TWB should be combined into a single feat and possibly add some passive Blocking if taken though the amount should not reach the defensive potential of Sword and Board.

Mechanically combat would be about more than absolute maximums of one type or another and allow for more styles to be viable... now if we could only balance ranged combat as well


Aesop

I like the ideas

[JollySwagMan]

We just need to be able to dual-wield 2 shields with a stackable AC/DR bonus, and have the off-hand shield bash proc at the same rate as for TWF.

It would look AWESOME.

The only thing more AWESOME than that would be allowing the shield also to be equipped as an item of clothing (take off your armor, then strap it on your back). TRIPLE SHIELD FTW!

Bwahaha.

Must spread some more around :)

[Dylvish]

bah, nm. not worth it. deleted my rant. :)


/signed

[psteen1]

here is my failed attempt at trying to get S&B to work.

Level 1-10. Ok, I'm taking every shield feat possible, I'm rocking an awesome tower shield of bashing. I jump into the middle of the fraying, intimidating and block, shield bashing. It is awesome. It works. It is really fun.

levels 11-12. Uh oh. This isn't working so well anymore. I'm taking a ton of damage. My intimidations don't last long enough. I'm not hitting anything. I'm not doing enough damage to kill things.

level 13. Lesser rezzing. I dumped all my shield feats, instead taking power attack, cleave, and great cleave. I'm still using a shield but now am offensively minded S&B. It works decent but not great.

level 15. **** **** ****. This build sucks too. I can't do enough damage, I can't absorb enough damage. All the shield is doing for me is providing another slot for resistances.

level 16. Lesser rez again. No shield feats, all two weapon fighting feats. A heavy pick in one hand and a warhammer of stunning +10 in the other. Now, I am completely awesome and tear through everything. Bye bye, shield.

level 18 (current). This build is still working for me.


Turbine made some good money off of me as I attempted to get S&B to work. But it didn't. I don't have uber gear, and I'm not a TR. But you shouldn't need that stuff to play the game. Most people don't have that stuff. As soon as I switched to TWF, I was awesome. Wielding a shield, I sucked.

People have told me that I should always carrying a two-handed weapon around for DPS, and only use a shield when situationally appropriate. Then what is the point of all the shield feats? Are they just a money trap, so you have to buy turbine points to lesser rez or spend all your money on feat-swaps? Situationally, you would end up never using the shield! It simply isn't needed. It is more effective simply to kill things fast.

People have also told me to stop whining and just use TWF. But I don't think DDO should be such a cookie cutter game. What is the fun in that? Can't we play a variety of builds and expect that they are reasonably well balanced? S&B is so far behind than TWF and THF that it is just wrong. And the developers never make a peep on the subject. Not even a "we are looking into it".

[yawumpus]

Sparta is not medieval . It would fall under the heading of Ancient.
Sparta existed roughly 10th centuary BC to 195 BC
medieval is generally considered to be 1066 AD to 1485/1500 AD

As for the deadliest warrior . it shows an exteremly untypical 1 vs 1 so called duel. Spartan soldiers fought in a Phalanx.

try reading some historical journals rather than basing your so called historical knowledge on pulp T.V. junk ( the deadliest warrior) and/or garbage films such as 300.

From memory, the Romans used shield bashes as well. I believed they called a shield uppercut the "Caesar counter". Also, I'd set my D&D games either in 8-900AD ([not called]dark age[anymore]) or ~1000BC (iron age). Ebberon mixes mostly renaissance tech (sans guns) with magic for a 19th century type society.

I think the big issue is that Turbine would *much* rather go by "pulp TV junk" than by actual fact (D&D was created to model pulp fiction, although originally the more rare pre-Tolkein variety). Part of this is to make the animations look cool (I'm pretty sure they would want good animations to go with any shield revival) and part of it is to avoid more accurately modeling pre-20th century military combat:

save vs. dysentery, save vs. dysentery, save vs. dysentery, save vs. dysentery, save vs. dysentery, save vs. dysentery, save vs. dysentery, save vs. dysentery, save vs. dysentery,fight the battle, save vs. infection, save vs. dysentery, save vs. dysentery, save vs. dysentery, save vs. dysentery, save vs. dysentery, save vs. dysentery, save vs. dysentery [rolling for disease every month or so was even somewhere in the 1e. AD&D rules].

[FlyingTurtle]

OP, you're doing it wrong. It's not

"For the love of the gods: FIX SHIELDS!"

It's

"DEUS VULT! Set pikes!"

[Vormaerin]

"Fixing" shields pretty much means rebuilding the content of this game. The real problem is not that shields are useless...they add 8 or more AC and blocking DR (and passive DR in some cases). Its that proper tanking is almost entirely not useful in this game. You could boost the defensive capabilities of Shields tenfold and they'd still be "unviable" because that much defense is hardly ever useful. You still win with DPS and you do it faster.

And if you are going to rebuild fights around having proper tanks, you are going to have the change the game to allow for all the aggro stuff that proper tanking balance requires. Continuous force taunting via Intimidate is not the way to go in a combat system built around the MMO trinity (which DDO is not).

Boosting S&B DPS is not going to get the job done. Regardless of what you believe about "real world" combat, the fact is that damage output by S&B should not equal that of THF or TWF because it does provide superior defense. If you could use the shield as effectively as a 2nd weapon, then it would be TWF and/or THF that would be "useless". And if you don't bring it up to match that DPS, then its still going to be suboptimal in the current content.

The issue is content design. If you build content that doesn't require a defense build to complete, then no one will take a defense build regardless of how good it is at defense. LOTRO provided a clear example of that a while back. Guardians are have all the shield offense stuff you propose here and were substantially tougher than DPS build warriors (aka Champions). But they were still considered gimp, because there weren't any fights that required all that extra defense. Especially after you factored in that part of the damage absorbing advantage was used up by the boss living longer and therefore dishing out a little more damage.

[Linenoise2]

Shields need to offer DR even when not blocking and give 10-15 more AC at end game.

I agree with this and it is easy to implement.

Let's face it, the only reason shields do so little now is because they still (like with all armor) cling to the AD&D rules. A ruleset that DDO departed from years ago. We have HEAVILY deviated from the way damage is done so why not give the same treatment to armor & AC? It would make armor/shields/DR much more feasible. Let's be honest, we all would like to see more variety in the classes. Lets make S&B builds more attractive to players and more beneficial to groups.

[GreenGurgler]

Generally have found shield works good for skelatons and just to bump base ac as for the shift key i dumped that immediatly as my shield due to the hit shift 5 times and the win sticky key thing found the change to keypad delete to work well as i use the 0 ins keypad key for jumps I have small hands for a man but indeed there are some temporal issues when using the shield Such as let me hit with shield then with weapon without the whole stop and pause type think about for a min then do what told so agree needs something but lack the definituion of what and {Last but not least } A jump up shieldbash on landing seems to do much damage! And if dont like use on oozes that take care of it quick lol

What???? :confused:

Cant penetrate confusing aura produced by random stringing of words....

I'm guessing your trying to say something here but I cant figure it out ;)

[Teldurn]

We just need to be able to dual-wield 2 shields with a stackable AC/DR bonus, and have the off-hand shield bash proc at the same rate as for TWF.

It would look AWESOME.

The only thing more AWESOME than that would be allowing the shield also to be equipped as an item of clothing (take off your armor, then strap it on your back). TRIPLE SHIELD FTW!
I was in a 3.5 PnP game many years back, where, through the clever use of many, many splatbooks, the group's wizard was unarmed but was able to have two tower shields magically rotating around his person. He could never be flanked. One of the shields would swing around and block an attack from whichever direction it came. His AC was 2 higher than the group's Dwarven Defender. It was pretty funny.

And it WAS pretty awesome! The DM admitted to only letting him play that character just to see if he could pull it off.

[psteen1]

"Fixing" shields pretty much means rebuilding the content of this game. The real problem is not that shields are useless...they add 8 or more AC and blocking DR (and passive DR in some cases). Its that proper tanking is almost entirely not useful in this game. You could boost the defensive capabilities of Shields tenfold and they'd still be "unviable" because that much defense is hardly ever useful. You still win with DPS and you do it faster.

And if you are going to rebuild fights around having proper tanks, you are going to have the change the game to allow for all the aggro stuff that proper tanking balance requires. Continuous force taunting via Intimidate is not the way to go in a combat system built around the MMO trinity (which DDO is not).

Boosting S&B DPS is not going to get the job done. Regardless of what you believe about "real world" combat, the fact is that damage output by S&B should not equal that of THF or TWF because it does provide superior defense. If you could use the shield as effectively as a 2nd weapon, then it would be TWF and/or THF that would be "useless". And if you don't bring it up to match that DPS, then its still going to be suboptimal in the current content.

The issue is content design. If you build content that doesn't require a defense build to complete, then no one will take a defense build regardless of how good it is at defense. LOTRO provided a clear example of that a while back. Guardians are have all the shield offense stuff you propose here and were substantially tougher than DPS build warriors (aka Champions). But they were still considered gimp, because there weren't any fights that required all that extra defense. Especially after you factored in that part of the damage absorbing advantage was used up by the boss living longer and therefore dishing out a little more damage.

I agree with a lot of this, not that I'm an expert or anything. General opinion is that s&b should not be DPS, but defensive. In this game the concept of being defensive is pretty worthless, so how about making s&b crowd control as well? Simply allowing shields to hold vertigo, stunning, shatter, etc.... and for bashers: paralyzing, disrupting, banishing.... could make their use a lot more palatable.

In my fighters case, who is all about stunning blows, he would now have a shield holding the stunning enchantment so his weapon can be a little more damage-focused.

[Pugsley]

Here's the problem...

Dungeons & Dragons
TWF: Lots of damage
THF: Lots of damage
S&B: Less damage, more AC

Dungeons & Dragons Online
TWF: Lots of damage
THF: Lots of damage
S&B: Less damage


Because in DDO, getting all of the best AC equipment in the game means you can AC tank a level 20 quest on normal difficulty, so there's no point in trying.

[Luis_Velderve]

I think that a boost in DR is the best way to fix shields since AC is almost useless in most builds......What is developers allow x% of the DR while actively blocking to become part of the DR while attacking?

[CaptainCameo]

Shields are a defensive piece of armor. And should work as such in DDO.


There should be great defensive value in using one.

The armies of the past did no tuse two weapons, they used one weapond and one shield....because it had an advantage.

It balanced defense and offense.


And IMO, even if you make no change to how AC works in tis game, you should be able to come up with feats and shields that have great defensive power at end game.



But..this is also a fantasy game.

300 Spartans should be able to crush some skulls with their shields from time to time.

And I still want Captain America's shield. :D

I don't think the current sytem of shield bashing is bad.......at first. But there needs to be a way to beef it up, and make it valid at end game as well.

More feats, more shield effects, more named shields....and crafted shields.

Defensive primarily, but offensive ones as well are needed.

I know for a fact that there are spiked shields in the DnD handbook. I would love to be able to do bludgeoning and piercing damage at the same time. And there's the possibility of having super shields that can turn into giant shurikens of death to be thrown at enemies MUWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!

....... what?

[sweez]

Because in DDO, getting all of the best AC equipment in the game means you can AC tank a level 20 quest on normal difficulty, so there's no point in trying.

Oh, so Quikster, MrWizard and the rest are just full of **** I guess?

I have a feeling they're not, however.

[Vormaerin]

You can build a successful DDO tank, but its an enormous amount of effort. Far more effort than you actually benefit from from a powergaming standpoint. You /can/ do it, but there's just no where in the game where needed. You can do the same content with a much less difficult to equip build and probably faster.

[der_kluge]

I know for a fact that there are spiked shields in the DnD handbook. I would love to be able to do bludgeoning and piercing damage at the same time. And there's the possibility of having super shields that can turn into giant shurikens of death to be thrown at enemies MUWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA!

....... what?

What we really need is to be able to add razors to the top hat, so we can fling it.

http://cdn.screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/Oddjobs-Hat-James-Bond.jpg

[stoolcannon]

I'm sure this has already been pointed out several times by now but the problem is not that shields don't work. The problem is that the AC system is horribly and irrevocably broken (without completly changing the game).

In an ideal world:
Sword and board SHOULD do significantly less DPS than a two weapon fighter. But there should be an equal gain in defense. I.e picking up a shield and dropping a weapon should make an immediate impact if you're proficient, however it doesn't because unless picking up that shield puts your AC in the high 60's/70's you're going to get smacked around everywhere north of Subterrane.

There's virtually no sane reason for a person to use a shield aside from wanting one of the bonuses it provides unless you're some sort of AC tank who is grinding raid gear.

I learned this the hard way by creating an AC tank Paladin. With 67 AC (no raid gear) I was doing very well all the way up through VOD on Hard (getting hit there but not every swing at least) but the cost to my DPS was so staggering I couldn't hate tank because I had to invest literally everything into AC bonuses. I was also using longswords which are horribly broken and worthless but that's for another thread.

The fact is, we will not see shields fixed in this game imo. To fix shields and make them viable for other than tanks would require fixing the horribly skewed to-hit bonuses monsters receive which would in turn make everything too easy blah blah blah.

We're stuck with what we've got.

[stoolcannon]

You can build a successful DDO tank, but its an enormous amount of effort. Far more effort than you actually benefit from from a powergaming standpoint. You /can/ do it, but there's just no where in the game where needed. You can do the same content with a much less difficult to equip build and probably faster.

Q: What could possibly be more fun than months and months of raiding and gear grinding to build a toon that just stands in one place and doesn't ever attack?

A: Almost anything

I've considered building a timmy for my guild but there's no way in hell I'd actually level it as a timmy. I'd bring it to 20 doing something fun then use a greater heart to rebuild it.

[Akas]

Here's an idea: rather than worry about AC or DR, give new tactics to sword and board fighting. Here's what I would think might work:

Parry:
Can only be used while wielding one one-handed weapon. Unsure what the DC roll would be (probably level + str mod or something), but it would be measured up against reflex instead of fortitude and has the following effect. If the target fails the save, then it is hamstring'ed and must roll another save or else be crippled. If it saves, it still incurs a penalty: it cannot use any special attacks. Casters struck in this fashion must make a save or else suffer a -10 penalty to concentration checks.

Shield Deflection: Can only be used while using a shield. Stance: upon entering this stance, you gain a +2 stacking bonus to intimidate but a -2 to any str-based checks. In this mode, you have a (3/6/9/12%) chance of deflecting melee attacks. When this happens, you take no damage from the attack, and the target must roll vs. fortitude or else be tendon sliced (DC unknown).

Shield Counter (pre-req: shield deflection, Dos/SD II): upon afflicting an enemy with a tactic (tendon slice, hamstring, crippling blow, etc.), the player can activate this ability to do a shield bash with a chance of stunning (DC unknown). Any enemy struck by this move must also make a save vs. fortitude or else be knocked down.

Retribution Aura: While active, any melee or ranged attack has a chance of reflecting damage done to the enemy who struck them. Your movement speed is slowed by 15%.

This is what I think of when I think of a sword and board 'tank' (to use the term loosely). We already have all these status ailments and effects, why not use them? Sure, the tank may get hit (but he'll have DR and HP), but he'll keep aggro through more than intimidate and damage, and he'll be a pain in the butt for mobs to fight against (even though he's soaking up the aggro). Going for historical accuracy (if you must...): shield users back in the day almost never blocked anything with the intention of taking it head on. That would be stupid (a metal shield vs. a metal spear, who loses? the shield arm, of course: it goes numb). Instead, what they would try to do would be to deflect it so that the enemy would become unbalanced, lose their weapon, or be in a point where they could counter.

So make sword and board the eternal 'unbalancer', slowing, knocking people down, etc. You have the tools already, so why not?

[Maxelcat]

+1

Maor Love Fer Sheilds!!!

[KillEveryone]

Clerics aren't proficient in greataxe, falchion, or greatsword. What a ridiculous suggestion.

It is not ridiculous.

You can still use them. You suffer a penalty to hit but you can still use them. They are not race required and they do not require any UMD. Anyone can use any weapon without any feat but they suffer a penalty. It isn't much of a penalty. Just like any arcane that is not proficient with shields can us any shield.

They can suck some Bulls Str pots until they get a +4 STR item and heroism pots to up their to hit. Cast what ever other buff spells they have handy that ups that also.

Cleric weapons suck anyway. They would be better off using a THF weapon and suffer the -4 to hit that using their already less than optimal weapon anyway.

[Boromirs]

Was there any word from a dev that shields someday will get a look at? I mean all a dev has to do is count the number of posts on this thread... ALL these people can't be wrong (or at the very least there is a ring of truth to what they are saying). Shield usage is awesome, there are a ton of people that DESPERATELY want to use a shield but CAN'T because it gimps them.

---Why can't they just move around a couple of numbers, ANY one of these suggestions are pretty good. And (of course I don't know anything about the game's code) I think it wouldn't be too much trouble to edit values here and there to bring shields up to par. Anyhow, a look into shields would be awesome .

[Camarde]

I've already put this out there in other threads

also as I'm doing this off the top of my head it may not match what I initially said anyway...



Offense:

1. Change Improved Shield Bash
1a. Have the Improved Shield Bash feat grant a % chance to proc a Shield Bash attack similar to the way TWF was made to proc.
1a1. Depending on implimentation this could be a flat rate or could be based on BAB or some other method... I'm thinking a comibination of the two would be best. Perhaps 25-30% base +1% per BAB with certain PrEs possibly adding as well. This would add dps but not so much as to threaten wither TWF nor THF by any stretch. 50-60% would likely be the highest this ability should reach

2. Impliment Shield Crafting
2a. This does NOT have to be like Greensteel Crafting.
2b. Have the Enhancement Bonus apply to both offense and defensive traits.
2c. Make Shield Spikes as dropped and/or Crafted items that can be permanently attached to any shield via the Stone of Change.
2c1. These Spikes could have offensive statistics or possibly additional defensive statistics that allow for furth shield customization. Those who do not wish to invest in offensive shield fighting can make shields with additional guard effects while those invested can make offensive enhancements and abilities.



Defense:
1. AC isn't the only method of Defense and as it stands has become an improbable factor to reasonably balance in the game.

2. Shield Proficiency should grant a small chance that successful incoming attacks could be passively blocked as part of the flow of combat. Thus occassionally applying the Shield Blocking DR to a successful attack as though the character had been actively blocking.
2a. Perhaps light and heavy shields could have a 10% base chance with Tower Shields granting a 15% base chance
2b. The Shield Mastery Feats and heavy defensive PrEs could add additional % chance to apply Blocking DR to successful incoming attacks.

3. Perhaps a Shield Ward feat could be added to apply an extra benefit against AoE attacks reducing damage below 50% on successful reflex saves.
3a. Perhaps with that feat you'd have Reflex for 1/4 instead of Reflex for half.



All Together:

Viable offense while not being primarily offensive combined with real defensive capabilities as opposed to false preceived ones. These offensive capabilities would add to damage but would not threaten more offensive minded styles like TWF and THF for DPS supremacy.

Certain possibilities do exist to improve the defensive abilities of TWF and THF as well.

Improved Buckler Defense could be added to allow THF to use Bucklers in there off hand while imposing a small Attack Bonus penalty.

TWD and TWB should be combined into a single feat and possibly add some passive Blocking if taken though the amount should not reach the defensive potential of Sword and Board.

Mechanically combat would be about more than absolute maximums of one type or another and allow for more styles to be viable... now if we could only balance ranged combat as well


Aesop

/signed, it is the way i think it s must be change too.

[PNellesen]

Cleric weapons suck anyway. They would be better off using a THF weapon and suffer the -4 to hit that using their already less than optimal weapon anyway.

Have to agree with this, at least based on my experience with my pure Level 13 Cleric so far. He's at the point now where AC is starting to be a non-factor anyway, so I think I'm just going to try and find a really nice Quarterstaff and put the shield away for good. If I roll another Cleric, he will be based on tihocan's Warpriest so he can do some better damage with martial weapons rather than the stuff he has to use now. I don't want a "Battle Cleric", but soloing isn't a whole lot of fun with this guy anymore (at least compared to soloing with my elf Tempest Ranger), even if he CAN cast Destruction now ;)

[Vormaerin]

Was there any word from a dev that shields someday will get a look at? I mean all a dev has to do is count the number of posts on this thread... ALL these people can't be wrong (or at the very least there is a ring of truth to what they are saying).


Although I'd love to have s&b be a useful way to go in DDO, this argument is utterly fallacious. "All those posts" of ours is a totally insignificant percentage of the population playing this game. You can get this many posts agreeing with any point. If I started a thread "Raids suck and should be removed and never built again", I could get this many posts in agreement.

And for that other fellow's comment about tanking being all about grinding to not attack, well... that's because DDO is not designed for tanking. If you play a tank in traditional trinity game (like LotRO) you are doing stuff all the time to keep on top of the action. IN DDO, there's not much for a tank to do except use Intimidate every 6s.

[noinfo]

Ok, I'm done. Shields just ARE BAD. I tried almost every possible way to integrate them into SEVERAL builds, I currently own ALL THE SHIELDS in the game including many randomly generated ones. There is nothing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING redeeming about shields. You can do better dual wielding 2 toothpicks.

I ask the devs to please review shields and make some adjustments to them. Most people just throw their shields out, whenever that oblong shaped image comes up in their loot gen...a sigh leaves the player's mouth (it's like getting coal in your stockings). Please fix shield use so their is a reason for a fighter/paladin/or even a Barbarian to use them. Thanks.

I made a suggestion earlier in http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=279507

It is different to many others in that it allows shields to always be relevant, whether in the current ac range or not, it gives a boost to ac s/b users over 2wf and scales with level unlike dr options.

Most suggestions regarding shields involve a passive dr option (i don't find these horrible suggestions btw) but unfortunately scaling the appropriate dr would be a pain. By making them give a concealment bonus that is checked in addition to others you will get a defensive bonus that can make a difference to everyone at all levels.

[Xeraphim]

Yea I agree with that too. Ranged and Shield combat both need a serious looking at.

Hm...

Do I sense a request for another generous swing of the Nerf Bat to THF and TWF so they can bring the other combat styles into reasonable range without killing the servers?

[Ralmeth]

I too would like to see shields get a boost. As it is, the three shield feats are horrible. Taking these three feats would have to be as good taking all three THF or TWF feats.

[Tarnoc]

What is most interesting to me is that in medieval combat, the chief advantage of a shield was that it was both and offensive AND defensive weapon, sometimes every bit as deadly as the warrior's sword. On an episode of Deadliest Warrior, this was highlighted in the battle between the Spartan and the Ninja, where the Spartan's shield granted the Spartan about 350 kills out of a thousand contests, more than his spear. The shield was a game winner. Used properly, it can block and deflect blows in traditional hand-to-hand combat in addition to being an extremely potent offensive weapon. The edge of the shield packs a huge wallop, benefiting from the full force of the hips all the way to the tip of the hand when swung properly, so that being hit with the edge of the shield has enough force to kill you several times over.

Only a foolish warrior ever used a shield purely as a method of blocking blows. The shield can be used to knock your opponent down, strike an opportunistic blow, or just keep your opponent off-balance. If was the OFFENSIVE qualities, not the defensive qualities, that made a shield a mainstay of medieval weapon combat. The defensive aspects were more of a side-benefit. Great for hunkering down when trudging forward under a hail of arrows, but otherwise defense was hardly its chief use.

As a gimmick, a shield can be fun, but DPS is king in this game. A shield should be able to add a respectable benefit to damage as well as defense. Feats should be required of course (to represent the large amount of time it takes to be GOOD with using a shield as a weapon), but it should at least be an option.

and wat i say is add a feat attachment to shield use based on str to be able to use it as a second weapon ...it would make things like the epic ward of undeath of use and give a new set of viable feats

[Vormaerin]

So you don't really want to make sword and board a viable playstyle, you just want to add a new type of weapon to the TWF playstyle.

[Aesop]

Hm...

Do I sense a request for another generous swing of the Nerf Bat to THF and TWF so they can bring the other combat styles into reasonable range without killing the servers?

nope no nerfage needed... in this case.

Actually I'd like to improve all 4 weapon styles slightly ... read my suggestions... someone quoted them a little above your comment

Aesop

[Gremmlynn]

I made a suggestion earlier in http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=279507

It is different to many others in that it allows shields to always be relevant, whether in the current ac range or not, it gives a boost to ac s/b users over 2wf and scales with level unlike dr options.

Most suggestions regarding shields involve a passive dr option (i don't find these horrible suggestions btw) but unfortunately scaling the appropriate dr would be a pain. By making them give a concealment bonus that is checked in addition to others you will get a defensive bonus that can make a difference to everyone at all levels.I agree with the concept. But unless it stacks with blur/displacement it will have to offer better mitigation. Else, why give up the DPS when a buff will give you the same thing while letting you keep the DPS.

[dusty991]

in RL,shields were used as wpns as well as protection from attackers. so,although i would also like to see a slight increase in AC,i would also like to see the shield incorporated into the attack sequence.something like - forward slash,backhand slash,shield bash,stab & shield swipe.it should also give bonuses to elemental resists with a small amount for small shields,med amount for lg,and great amount for tower.and how about giving ftrs,pallys,and barb a new feat to enhance shield use like charge,which gives the same effect as the DQ over-run.where they can knockdown multiple mobs in a stright line.
and when bashing/shield blocking,the shield should get an automtic chance to stun.
The shield really does need some work ,and needs to be made useful...i mean,could u imagine the roman legions showing up on a battlefield without them?

[justagame]

IMO, part of the problem is that AC is broken. There are just far, far too many stacking AC bonuses for a D20 system to accomodate. At a given level, you can have AC varying from the teens to the 90s. The result is that the majority of that AC range is necessarily irrelevant. And only a few specific builds can get into the relevant AC range.

So when we talk about shields, we consider it as trading off some offense for some defense. Only we're giving up a LOT of offense, and getting virtually nothing back on defense. Because 99% of everyone out there holding a shield has an irrelevant armor class at the higher levels.

[Boromirs]

IMO, part of the problem is that AC is broken. There are just far, far too many stacking AC bonuses for a D20 system to accomodate. At a given level, you can have AC varying from the teens to the 90s. The result is that the majority of that AC range is necessarily irrelevant. And only a few specific builds can get into the relevant AC range.

So when we talk about shields, we consider it as trading off some offense for some defense. Only we're giving up a LOT of offense, and getting virtually nothing back on defense. Because 99% of everyone out there holding a shield has an irrelevant armor class at the higher levels.

It's true I don't even know what my AC is on ALL my characters (melee and otherwise) nor do I care. Really, they could kill two birds with one stone. They could fix AC AND shields by tying shields directly to AC...basically if you ever want a relevant AC in higher levels you MUST use a shield. This would bring synergy to an underutilized "nobody cares" stat (AC) and a badly needed fix for shields. ....

[AndyD47]

I've already put this out there in other threads

also as I'm doing this off the top of my head it may not match what I initially said anyway...



Offense:

1. Change Improved Shield Bash
1a. Have the Improved Shield Bash feat grant a % chance to proc a Shield Bash attack similar to the way TWF was made to proc.
1a1. Depending on implimentation this could be a flat rate or could be based on BAB or some other method... I'm thinking a comibination of the two would be best. Perhaps 25-30% base +1% per BAB with certain PrEs possibly adding as well. This would add dps but not so much as to threaten wither TWF nor THF by any stretch. 50-60% would likely be the highest this ability should reach



Defense:
1. AC isn't the only method of Defense and as it stands has become an improbable factor to reasonably balance in the game.

2. Shield Proficiency should grant a small chance that successful incoming attacks could be passively blocked as part of the flow of combat. Thus occassionally applying the Shield Blocking DR to a successful attack as though the character had been actively blocking.
2a. Perhaps light and heavy shields could have a 10% base chance with Tower Shields granting a 15% base chance
2b. The Shield Mastery Feats and heavy defensive PrEs could add additional % chance to apply Blocking DR to successful incoming attacks.

3. Perhaps a Shield Ward feat could be added to apply an extra benefit against AoE attacks reducing damage below 50% on successful reflex saves.






This,you are a smart person.
I never understood why shields don't have a base chance of outright blocking stuff or why shield bashing didn't proc some sort of effect like stuns personally.

Seeing as how DDO isn't exactly like 3.x,I figure turbine could make shields more in line with how they work in say DAoC.

On that note,there should be a shield feat that lets you absorb attacks for a teammate or take a portion of hate generated by someone you are blocking for.
That'd help you keep aggro even swinging with a one hander,if you are sharing aggro off the rogue/monk/angry sorc.

I play alot of divine casters,so I guess it'd benefit me alot too huh?

[elujin]

I suggested this in an earlier thread, but allowing the shield to act as a second weapon without requiring shift+attack to shield bash would go a long way toward helping make sword and board more viable.

i was think about that too make it use twf feats and mebey put + stun on some shields there blunt anways

[ddobard1]

I disagree with the OP. Some builds may be improved by using a shield.

- Better AC.

- Protection against special attacks, like Trip.

- One more slot for you hero, for instance +5 Heavy Shield of GFL.

But of course there are many options to upgrade or downgrade sword and board, I don't know which one is more game balanced.

[donfilibuster]

/rant /long

ok, didn't had to read all five pages on this thread to see where is this going.
It's one more thing on a long list of things that should never be in d&d, like wizards with healing, or katanas, shields are simply not for attacking.
Of course shields are lacking when combat is reduced to hack and slash, while in PnP you have a lot more tactics and combat maneouvers that are left out for simplicity or whatever.

The thing with parties made of all dps with buffs to provide more dps is a MMO thing, and i won't go in there.
DDO has it right in that your d&d hero is the one carrying the big sword or axe and not to take down armored soldiers but huge thick hide monsters in some dark cavernous lair.
Naturally fantasy heroes aren't supposed to hide behind shieldwalls and go on pike formations for safety, that's a soldier and guards thing.
Yet there's a place for shields, paladins and clerics and armored fighters or knights carry them and wizards enchant them as much as the swords.
Shields are not supposed to be used just for hand to hand combat as in real life but to give you cover from a wide number of nasty things from goblin arrows to fireballs and dragon breath.

Now players here see the shields broken but suggestions always seem to be just tweaks to ac or dr or dps.
In PnP you didn't use the shields for dr, there was other things like the cover bonus, firing into a melee, reach weapons.
Players continually suggest to improve sword&board and ranged combat, and to not rely on bum rush piling melees on the monster.
If u take the above two sentences together the word that comes to mind is cover, because the cover bonus applies to all those things.

The cover bonus isn't just another bonus, possibly less used than concealment because it had always been implicit.
When being around the corner, behind trees, when not able to engage a foe because someone else was in the way.
It is like flanking, you get it depending on where you are standing, which is hard to get on real time simulation.
Devs said the only reason players can walk through each other and stand on a spot is because it saves griefing.
However the players can conceivably still walk through each other and get the bonuses if you spread around rather than pile up on the same spot.
The rangers need the precision feat to be effective, the melees should take the same penalty.

Thus you can't swing your sword properly or shoot into your tank's foe if he stands in the way.
But then the monster can't fight you as well, nor shoot you freely for grazing hits.
An archer could stand behind the tank and shoot at a penalty but safe from being engaged.
The monsters wouldn't have to be kited all over the place, nor the melees have to pull all the aggro to themselves.
And that just because realistic combat simply doesn't work that way, that is really a videogame thing.
Shields, ranged and even spears suddenly become valuable again, while direct confrontation doesn't lose any bit and teamwork strenghten by a lot.

With cover other misconceptions also fall as well, like that the archers can kill things from afar without being on harm.
Archers truly can kill things from afar without being on harm. A whole barbarian horde falls to an archer line any day in the real world.
A soldier line with shields or cavalry has some chance to block the arrows but at great risk and bravery.
In d&d this is no different, the ideal fighter is always at risk and fears being shot as much as magic and the gods.
Dying to an arrow rather than by the sword isn't honourably, and hold person is truly a nightmare.
The orcs can be weak but they are many, and can overwhelm a knight or wear them down one scratch at a time.

But the fighter's tactics still win the day, a shield is just the first step, then a charge, a disarm, a bash.
Run from corner to corner, of which dungeons have many, distract them, fall to their flank, kill their leader.
Break their morale through intimidation, not just than taunt and challenge.
Make them disperse, chase, hunt them, take positions, call allies, divide and conquer.

And the fighter is not alone, the fellowship does all that way better.
The wizards cloak their arrival, make them fear, the clerics rally to aid and the rogues deal the final strikes.
Nukes may be fancy but a simple fog makes even a mindless forest beast know they are about to be killed.

But in the end the archer is not competing with the fighter. The archer hunts, is mobile, the figher awaits the charging horde.
The monsters aren't defenseless, they run strong in the numbers and hide in tight and dark places awaiting for the ambush.
There's a place for the guy with the big sword, and that's by the treasure hoard, because there's a really large lizard in the way.
But without the shield to block its breath, the arrow or lance to pierce his side the blade is never going to find the vunerable spot for the killing blow.

The other misconception is where you have to kill the monster before it can hurt you.
A two hander for a stonger blow, two weapons for faster slicing, leaves no room for a shield if it won't stop the blows from an angry ogre.
Truth is a shield alone would never stop the blows from any ogre, nor any other armed foe or monster.
In fact, it would encourage them and identify you as the threat, like intimidation but with you not being any fearsome.
Again, with the ogre distracted the rogue circles, a little magical numbness here, a miraculous blessing there and the ogre is suddenly a lot more weaker than it seemed.

Sure you can outmaneouver the ogre yourself and cripple him before having a chance to react, but chances are the rest of the tribe won't be too pleased.
Entering a dungeon and throwing your self into battle head first is swimming against the stream.
Naturally that is not the case if all the ogres do is to sit by bonfires petting the wolves that linger around for the bones.

Which leads to the third misconception, that you can fight recklessy and live.
Monsters and players don't fear death, unlike in real life combat, but that isn't an issue in the fantasy world.
The orcs need not hide in the hills and trees to shoot and ambush if they may as well charge you no matter how many magical fire erupts in the way.
On a world with high magic and cheap resurrection the shamans can raise an orc just as well as a cleric can save the hero no matter how careless they were.

Obviously in a mmo combat is simplified and AI is limited and we just want to kill the monster so it doesn't even matter how.
But that's not the point, the point is how to fit shields with less dps on party tactics.
The assumption is not that you can't go all dps nor that monsters shouldn't get themselves killed.
The thing is quite the opposite you can go all dps and the monsters are free to get themselves killed.

Things like that, a shield may not even defend you from attacks, just make you survive enough just like DR is to grazing hits.
Cover gives back a bit of that, including being able to stop special attacks which is already in the game, they got that right.
Just like a little bit of extra hp can let you take risks and walk through the fray when otherwise you have to kite or stay in the back.
Only the benefit is not for you but for the party member next fighting alongside you.
The shield user would still be slower dps and even not tanking too well but we all know managing aggro saves sp and hp for everyone in the party.

When time comes to ask for new toys, dps toons can have charge, board toons can give said bonuses instead of having them, maybe intimidation bonus, archers can have point blank and perhaps even indirect shooting.
The fights which are already good in ddo may have more variety in styles, not having to always kite or chase the monsters all over the place, and specially not having to be a killing machine to be successful.

p.s. holy shhh this was longer than expected.

[Boromirs]

/rant /long

ok, didn't had to read all five pages on this thread to see where is this going.
It's one more thing on a long list of things that should never be in d&d, like wizards with healing, or katanas, shields are simply not for attacking.
Of course shields are lacking when combat is reduced to hack and slash, while in PnP you have a lot more tactics and combat maneouvers that are left out for simplicity or whatever.

The thing with parties made of all dps with buffs to provide more dps is a MMO thing, and i won't go in there.
DDO has it right in that your d&d hero is the one carrying the big sword or axe and not to take down armored soldiers but huge thick hide monsters in some dark cavernous lair.
Naturally fantasy heroes aren't supposed to hide behind shieldwalls and go on pike formations for safety, that's a soldier and guards thing.
Yet there's a place for shields, paladins and clerics and armored fighters or knights carry them and wizards enchant them as much as the swords.
Shields are not supposed to be used just for hand to hand combat as in real life but to give you cover from a wide number of nasty things from goblin arrows to fireballs and dragon breath.

Now players here see the shields broken but suggestions always seem to be just tweaks to ac or dr or dps.
In PnP you didn't use the shields for dr, there was other things like the cover bonus, firing into a melee, reach weapons.
Players continually suggest to improve sword&board and ranged combat, and to not rely on bum rush piling melees on the monster.
If u take the above two sentences together the word that comes to mind is cover, because the cover bonus applies to all those things.

The cover bonus isn't just another bonus, possibly less used than concealment because it had always been implicit.
When being around the corner, behind trees, when not able to engage a foe because someone else was in the way.
It is like flanking, you get it depending on where you are standing, which is hard to get on real time simulation.
Devs said the only reason players can walk through each other and stand on a spot is because it saves griefing.
However the players can conceivably still walk through each other and get the bonuses if you spread around rather than pile up on the same spot.
The rangers need the precision feat to be effective, the melees should take the same penalty.

Thus you can't swing your sword properly or shoot into your tank's foe if he stands in the way.
But then the monster can't fight you as well, nor shoot you freely for grazing hits.
An archer could stand behind the tank and shoot at a penalty but safe from being engaged.
The monsters wouldn't have to be kited all over the place, nor the melees have to pull all the aggro to themselves.
And that just because realistic combat simply doesn't work that way, that is really a videogame thing.
Shields, ranged and even spears suddenly become valuable again, while direct confrontation doesn't lose any bit and teamwork strenghten by a lot.

With cover other misconceptions also fall as well, like that the archers can kill things from afar without being on harm.
Archers truly can kill things from afar without being on harm. A whole barbarian horde falls to an archer line any day in the real world.
A soldier line with shields or cavalry has some chance to block the arrows but at great risk and bravery.
In d&d this is no different, the ideal fighter is always at risk and fears being shot as much as magic and the gods.
Dying to an arrow rather than by the sword isn't honourably, and hold person is truly a nightmare.
The orcs can be weak but they are many, and can overwhelm a knight or wear them down one scratch at a time.

But the fighter's tactics still win the day, a shield is just the first step, then a charge, a disarm, a bash.
Run from corner to corner, of which dungeons have many, distract them, fall to their flank, kill their leader.
Break their morale through intimidation, not just than taunt and challenge.
Make them disperse, chase, hunt them, take positions, call allies, divide and conquer.

And the fighter is not alone, the fellowship does all that way better.
The wizards cloak their arrival, make them fear, the clerics rally to aid and the rogues deal the final strikes.
Nukes may be fancy but a simple fog makes even a mindless forest beast know they are about to be killed.

But in the end the archer is not competing with the fighter. The archer hunts, is mobile, the figher awaits the charging horde.
The monsters aren't defenseless, they run strong in the numbers and hide in tight and dark places awaiting for the ambush.
There's a place for the guy with the big sword, and that's by the treasure hoard, because there's a really large lizard in the way.
But without the shield to block its breath, the arrow or lance to pierce his side the blade is never going to find the vunerable spot for the killing blow.

The other misconception is where you have to kill the monster before it can hurt you.
A two hander for a stonger blow, two weapons for faster slicing, leaves no room for a shield if it won't stop the blows from an angry ogre.
Truth is a shield alone would never stop the blows from any ogre, nor any other armed foe or monster.
In fact, it would encourage them and identify you as the threat, like intimidation but with you not being any fearsome.
Again, with the ogre distracted the rogue circles, a little magical numbness here, a miraculous blessing there and the ogre is suddenly a lot more weaker than it seemed.

Sure you can outmaneouver the ogre yourself and cripple him before having a chance to react, but chances are the rest of the tribe won't be too pleased.
Entering a dungeon and throwing your self into battle head first is swimming against the stream.
Naturally that is not the case if all the ogres do is to sit by bonfires petting the wolves that linger around for the bones.

Which leads to the third misconception, that you can fight recklessy and live.
Monsters and players don't fear death, unlike in real life combat, but that isn't an issue in the fantasy world.
The orcs need not hide in the hills and trees to shoot and ambush if they may as well charge you no matter how many magical fire erupts in the way.
On a world with high magic and cheap resurrection the shamans can raise an orc just as well as a cleric can save the hero no matter how careless they were.

Obviously in a mmo combat is simplified and AI is limited and we just want to kill the monster so it doesn't even matter how.
But that's not the point, the point is how to fit shields with less dps on party tactics.
The assumption is not that you can't go all dps nor that monsters shouldn't get themselves killed.
The thing is quite the opposite you can go all dps and the monsters are free to get themselves killed.

Things like that, a shield may not even defend you from attacks, just make you survive enough just like DR is to grazing hits.
Cover gives back a bit of that, including being able to stop special attacks which is already in the game, they got that right.
Just like a little bit of extra hp can let you take risks and walk through the fray when otherwise you have to kite or stay in the back.
Only the benefit is not for you but for the party member next fighting alongside you.
The shield user would still be slower dps and even not tanking too well but we all know managing aggro saves sp and hp for everyone in the party.

When time comes to ask for new toys, dps toons can have charge, board toons can give said bonuses instead of having them, maybe intimidation bonus, archers can have point blank and perhaps even indirect shooting.
The fights which are already good in ddo may have more variety in styles, not having to always kite or chase the monsters all over the place, and specially not having to be a killing machine to be successful.

p.s. holy shhh this was longer than expected.

Never in Medievel European history did a person go out swinging with a giant twohanded sword or much less a greataxe. These things were very rare and only used to unhorse mounted knights more then anything. There is only one exception in which shields were not widely used and that is medieval Japan... but their sword style/armor had developed into such a form that shields were obsolete, arrows had trouble penetrating lamellar/silk armor.

Shields were prevalent pretty much everywhere else so much so that it became a symbol of defense in almost all modern militaries and family crests and heralds in every european tradition used a shield to symbolize unity in arms and brotherhood.

... In ddo shields are just a nuisance because defense in this game doesn't seem to matter all that much.

[Vormaerin]

[QUOTE=Boromirs;3340698There is only one exception in which shields were not widely used and that is medieval Japan...
[/QUOTE]

This isn't really true. Late medieval soldiers increasingly abandoned the shield in favor of 2 handed weapons. Knights in the 15th and 16th centuries didn't bother with shields any more, preferring the 2 handed sword when fighting on foot. Large numbers of troops like the Swiss pikemen, imperial landsknechts, the "Black Army" of Hungary, etc fought with pikes, halberds, crossbows, and other weapons with no shield other than a pavise.

Also, lamellar armor is no more effective against archery than other styles. Lamellar armor was widely used around the world, with and without shields. The Japanese didn't use shields because the Samurai primarily fought as horse archers and spearmen on the battlefield.

Shields were dominant because it was vastly cheaper to equip lots of soldiers with a slab of wood or leather than to make good armor for all of them.

However, you are completely right that in the current combat system in DDO, shields are mostly irrelevant.

[justagame]

This isn't really true. Late medieval soldiers increasingly abandoned the shield in favor of 2 handed weapons. Knights in the 15th and 16th centuries didn't bother with shields any more, preferring the 2 handed sword when fighting on foot. Large numbers of troops like the Swiss pikemen, imperial landsknechts, the "Black Army" of Hungary, etc fought with pikes, halberds, crossbows, and other weapons with no shield other than a pavise.

Also, lamellar armor is no more effective against archery than other styles. Lamellar armor was widely used around the world, with and without shields. The Japanese didn't use shields because the Samurai primarily fought as horse archers and spearmen on the battlefield.

Shields were dominant because it was vastly cheaper to equip lots of soldiers with a slab of wood or leather than to make good armor for all of them.

However, you are completely right that in the current combat system in DDO, shields are mostly irrelevant.

I guess even in the 15th century, without the aid of computers, they knew it was all about DPS ;)

[fatherpirate]

ok, shields, shields, shields

If they wanted to make them more....realistic, I would do this.

buckler - no change...basically a pan lid...not going help that much, however if you took shield mastery
then it should allow this 'shield' to be equipt with a bow / xbow..it is attached only to the back of the hand
and would not effect your holding of the bow...much.

normal shield - should give you 1-2 DR from the left front side automatically, when not using it to block.
Spiked types you give a bit more damage on a bash. If you have shield mastery, you should be able to use
it with a light crossbow, but it will slow reloading, thrown weapons as well.

tower shields - 3-4 DR left front side, 1-2 DR left side, -1 on spot rolls. Reduce the damage on bashing
(they are crappy at that) also give the user 5 points of elemental resistance if in blocking stance, more
if they are trained in shield mastery. yes..a 1 inch thick door can block fire ect...to a point.

[Boromirs]

Shields were dominant up until the late renaissance period (which I wouldnt even consider medieval). This means between the early egyptian Lower/Upper kingdom period up until the early 1400's shields dominated the battlefield (at least in Indo/European culture). With the development of the Plate armor, shields gradually went out of style FOR .01% OF THE POPULATION. Very few people could own armor back then (its not like in DDO where this stuff just drops willy nilly from chests...think Darksun), because armorers capable of making any kind of quality armor was as rare as top tier scientists/engineers today.

Modifications to sheilds-

If you shield block for more then 3 seconds with a tower shield you can effectively use the shield as 80% cover. That means it would be like standing behind a stone pillar 80% of the time with spells/attacks/other forms of dangers not being able to touch you.

Escalating DR - 2 passive DR for any shield used regardless/stacks with everything (its a BIG METAL THING IN FRONT OF YOU), 3 DR for Large, 5 DR for Tower. Shield mastery now adds the DR gained onto passive DR and doubles when actively blocking.

% AC increase- Shields now increase in terms of % of your total AC. small shields will increase your AC by 10%, medium 15%, Large 20%, and tower 25%.

[Vormaerin]

Shields were dominant up until the late renaissance period (which I wouldnt even consider medieval).



Got a bunch of problems with your post. First.... pikemen, halberdiers, longbowmen, crossbowmen, and lots of other infantry of the late medieval era didn't use shields. So your completely made up statistics and nonsense about only plate armor wearers disdaining the shield is false.

Second, even if your statistic wasn't complete fantasy, I'd say that dragon and demon slaying adventurers definitely fall into the category of that 0.01% of the population with access to top quality gear. So trying to exclude that group's behavior from the analysis is ridiculous.

Third, I think it would be quite difficult for you to prove that Eberron is a medieval fantasy world and not a Renaissance one. So arguments about what features apply to medieval Earth rather than Renaissance Earth are dubious.

Fourth, we aren't talking about troops fighting on a battle field. We are talking about skirmish combatants operating largely in restricted terrain (aka inside buildings and caves). So the behavior of masses of men in the open field isn't a valid comparable.

Lastly, your solutions don't address the problem with the game mechanics. The problem is not that a shield does not provide enough defense. It does. +8 to +10 AC with blocking DR and other advantages is plenty of defense bonus. The problem with the game is that YOU DON'T NEED THAT MUCH DEFENSE. Giving more defense you don't need isn't going to make shields more popular. It requires a wholescale change to the content of the game such that the relative power of healing is reduced so that not taking damage is valuable. And it requires a revamp of the primitive aggro mechanics of DDO to be more like trinity MMOS so that "tank" characters can ensure they are the ones getting hit, not everyone else.

Tanks are never used in any game if DPS can be healed through the boss damage, even when tanks have all the stuff you talk about. Huge defense is also irrelevant if you can't make sure the huge defense guy is the only one taking damage. A level of aggro control that DDO's system does not support. There are too many multiple mob fights, too many attackers who fight from outside Intimidate range, and too many AoE attacks.

[Boromirs]

Got a bunch of problems with your post. First.... pikemen, halberdiers, longbowmen, crossbowmen, and lots of other infantry of the late medieval era didn't use shields. So your completely made up statistics and nonsense about only plate armor wearers disdaining the shield is false.

Second, even if your statistic wasn't complete fantasy, I'd say that dragon and demon slaying adventurers definitely fall into the category of that 0.01% of the population with access to top quality gear. So trying to exclude that group's behavior from the analysis is ridiculous.

Third, I think it would be quite difficult for you to prove that Eberron is a medieval fantasy world and not a Renaissance one. So arguments about what features apply to medieval Earth rather than Renaissance Earth are dubious.

Fourth, we aren't talking about troops fighting on a battle field. We are talking about skirmish combatants operating largely in restricted terrain (aka inside buildings and caves). So the behavior of masses of men in the open field isn't a valid comparable.

Lastly, your solutions don't address the problem with the game mechanics. The problem is not that a shield does not provide enough defense. It does. +8 to +10 AC with blocking DR and other advantages is plenty of defense bonus. The problem with the game is that YOU DON'T NEED THAT MUCH DEFENSE. Giving more defense you don't need isn't going to make shields more popular. It requires a wholescale change to the content of the game such that the relative power of healing is reduced so that not taking damage is valuable. And it requires a revamp of the primitive aggro mechanics of DDO to be more like trinity MMOS so that "tank" characters can ensure they are the ones getting hit, not everyone else.

Tanks are never used in any game if DPS can be healed through the boss damage, even when tanks have all the stuff you talk about. Huge defense is also irrelevant if you can't make sure the huge defense guy is the only one taking damage. A level of aggro control that DDO's system does not support. There are too many multiple mob fights, too many attackers who fight from outside Intimidate range, and too many AoE attacks.

No not really, all those you've listed (Even crossbow men) used shields. In fact, the crossbowmen HAD to use shields (the mobile full cover tower kinds) because of the insane load times that crossbowmen faced when reloading a bolt. (while you're hand cranking, believe me Im either taking my time aiming at your head or doing a full on bullrush to close the distance).

http://comps.fotosearch.com/comp/IST/IST512/crossbowman-protected-shield_~1217861.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Balestriere1.jpg

Longbowmen were not the "rangers" of fantasy lore but rather used as mobile artillery, lining hundreds of men in rows and then firing literally a rain of arrows down upon the enemy (btw ALL of whom carried shields for exactly that reason). The English used longbowmen to great effect even up until the 17th century (even when much of Europe adopted gunpowder weaponry)...however bowmen required a great deal of skill and crude gunpowder weapons did not...England eventually adopted.
The Pikemen and Halberdiers you are thinking of were NOT medieval and not even renaissance...people often confuse this guy ...

http://www.edwud.com/photos/pikemen_at_big_battle_nantwich.jpg

with being a "medieval" type figure because people usually sandwich anything with armor or funny hats into this
time period. However, Europe has WELL left the medieval era at this point and was hurtling into modernity with blazing speed (passing almost all other cultures...you know if this was a game of Civ II). Rather, the pikemen came into existence because guns came into existence. The tactic of pikemen were actually a form of shielding/defense for riflemen.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c6/Pikemen_musketeers.jpg

Note Below how during formation the musketeers follow closely behind the pikemen (they were joined at the hip if you were...because the two complement each other)...(note also this is a rendition from the time period and not a modern artists perspective)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/172/480363013_b601090525.jpg

This time period doesn't fit with Eberron lore as Eberron does not have any guns (at least the proto modern variant) and thus a pikeman would never have been invented. NOW a spearman would most definetly have existed and is part of classic medieval lore.

http://chestofbooks.com/reference/American-Cyclopaedia-V1/images/Norman-Spearman-From-the-Bayeux-Tapestry.jpg

Note again this is from a tapestry from the time period...probably 11th century. Remember also that anything beyond 1500 is most definetly NOT medieval in any way shape or form... that year is what most historians use to demarcate the proto-modern era and the medieval era.

Heck we STILL use shields today...

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/8998/100806f4156p120.jpg

[Vormaerin]

A pavise such as crossbowmen used and a tower shield are two different things. A pavise... a piece of wood either worn on the back or planted in the ground like a wall... has nothing in common with the kind of shield you are talking about. D&D shields are the kind you use in your hand with a weapon in the other hand. A pavise is useless for melee defense. It is purely a form of cover from archery.

One handed spearmen used shields. They largely vanished at the end of the dark ages because knights' lances reached farther than a one handed infantry spear so horsemen rode them down with ease. The ones who remained were mainly light infantry using javelins or peasant rabble that couldn't get anything better. Neither are an example of a D&D adventurer.

Professional soldiers in large numbers used 2 handed weapons.. Pikes, halberds, bows, two handed swords, etc in substantial numbers. There were troops that still used shields, but they were no where near the 99.99% you claimed and its not even clear they'd be a majority of troops if you discount militias.

The Swiss and the Holy Roman Empire used pikemen in the 14th century. The 14th and 15th century professional armies were dominated by combined forces of pikes, crossbowmen, and knights...most of who didn't use shields any more. The crossbowmen slowly got replaced by arquebuses and muskets, which is why the pikes remained a dominant force well into the 17th century before good musketry finally got rid of them.

Anyway, no one said shields were useless. I said it was wrong to say that most or all troops in the era used them, which was not at all true.

Regardless.... none of this has anything to do with the fact that your "Fixes" won't change anything at all. S&B builds aren't going to be used if you make shields even better defensively. Lack of Defense is not the problem with S&B builds.

[Aesop]

I would say that "Lack of Defense" is only part of the problem

as opposed to it is not the problem

regardless of history and who used what when and how... in this case the Fantasy is more important than the reality.

Sword and Board is an iconic style and is a large part of fantasy combat.

DDO has 6 combat styles

TWF
THF
Unarmed
Ranged
Thrown

you may also add in another if you were to be complete

Single Weapon


However for the most part when people think of the combat they wonder whether they should go THF or TWF

the only time people really think of S&B is for intimitanking

and the rest are considered an after thought at best or a nuisance (this for the majority not the specific style enthusiasts)

I'd perfer that all styles were of enough value that there was a legitimate choice to be made other than whether to be effective or whether to be concept build.


Aesop

[Vellrad]

I would like to say, that all characters I know (except those without proficienty, or those fearing ASF) used shields, including TWFs. Bucklers are strapped to hand, and they allow you to use two handed weapon/ two weapons at the same time with shield's armor skill check penatly to attack throws. Unfortunately, almost none D&D based video game allowed that (the only one I remember was "Temple of Elementar Evil", but its not well know).

[Gremmlynn]

I would say that "Lack of Defense" is only part of the problem

as opposed to it is not the problem

regardless of history and who used what when and how... in this case the Fantasy is more important than the reality.

Sword and Board is an iconic style and is a large part of fantasy combat.

DDO has 6 combat styles

TWF
THF
Unarmed
Ranged
Thrown

you may also add in another if you were to be complete

Single Weapon


However for the most part when people think of the combat they wonder whether they should go THF or TWF

the only time people really think of S&B is for intimitanking

and the rest are considered an after thought at best or a nuisance (this for the majority not the specific style enthusiasts)

I'd perfer that all styles were of enough value that there was a legitimate choice to be made other than whether to be effective or whether to be concept build.


AesopThe thing is, they are all legitimate choices, they just don't mix well outside of TWF(unarmed) and THF. A group all using ranged works quit well if the players know what they are doing as would a group all using S&B if damage mitigation for shields was a bit better. It's just when we start mixing them that the problems really arise. Also, as the high DPS TWF/THF groups get the job done the fastest, it's the most popular.

[Vormaerin]

In game terms, there's four kinds of fighting:

Single target DPS

AoE DPS

Tanking

Ranged DPS


DDO doesn't really go with the traditional breakdown. But TWF is definitely single target DPS, while THF tends into the AoE DPS area. Either of those are fine.

The other two have problems. We'll ignore Ranged since that's a completely different topic.

Sword and Board is iconic, but in computer games it always relies on either a shortage of healing or a robust aggro management system to be viable. DDO does not have either of these things. No amount of changes to the shield (other than just turning sword and board into a type of TWF) are going to "fix" that.

[donfilibuster]

Never in Medievel European history did a person go out swinging with a giant twohanded sword or much less a greataxe. These things were very rare and only used to unhorse mounted knights more then anything. There is only one exception in which shields were not widely used and that is medieval Japan... but their sword style/armor had developed into such a form that shields were obsolete, arrows had trouble penetrating lamellar/silk armor.

Shields were prevalent pretty much everywhere else so much so that it became a symbol of defense in almost all modern militaries and family crests and heralds in every european tradition used a shield to symbolize unity in arms and brotherhood.

... In ddo shields are just a nuisance because defense in this game doesn't seem to matter all that much.

Is correct, but we aren't playing a medieval game but a fantasy game.
Real world swords and armor are designed for human soldiers. Big axes are for dragons and myth beasts.

This is precisely why the katana has no place in d&d, it is just too advanced.
Now, fantasy can have that too, but d&d is more of the unexplored lands so won't see militarized orcs like in LotR.
d&d creatures that wield weapons rely on either magic or savagery. Tech loses big time vs. magic is not even profitable.
Most monstrous races are tribal and thus favor crude weapons, bulky blades, this is where the kopesh fits in.
Realistic weapons vs armor bonuses were in 2e and were removed from 3e for simplification.
The arms and equipment guide used to have all the nice toys, but Eberron was made in purpose to go back to the basics.

Shields are iconic of knights and cavalry, which in ddo would be house d and dwarves.
The rest do well with runes, totems and skull shaped scepters.

There's fantasy shields, like the one that stops dragon breath, etc.
The dwarves have exotic stuff, like bigger than big axes, heavier plate than full and an extreme shield larger than tower.
Even then, as far as playstyles go shields aren't meant merely to add AC, they block rays and a lot of effects.
A shield that blocks dragon breath is a must have treasure.

[Aesop]

The thing is, they are all legitimate choices, they just don't mix well outside of TWF(unarmed) and THF. A group all using ranged works quit well if the players know what they are doing as would a group all using S&B if damage mitigation for shields was a bit better. It's just when we start mixing them that the problems really arise. Also, as the high DPS TWF/THF groups get the job done the fastest, it's the most popular.

just going to point out that you even had to qualify S&B with "if damage mitigation for shields was a bit better"

as for ranged they just don't play well with others. but even if they did their overall Single Target DPS is just too much lower for it to be a good use of a party slot.

I'll play with anyone no matter what their weapon choices are ... but I do feel that the game would be served well by improving those styles that are considered "gimped"

Aesop

[Aesop]

In game terms, there's four kinds of fighting:

Single target DPS

AoE DPS

Tanking

Ranged DPS


DDO doesn't really go with the traditional breakdown. But TWF is definitely single target DPS, while THF tends into the AoE DPS area. Either of those are fine.

The other two have problems. We'll ignore Ranged since that's a completely different topic.

Sword and Board is iconic, but in computer games it always relies on either a shortage of healing or a robust aggro management system to be viable. DDO does not have either of these things. No amount of changes to the shield (other than just turning sword and board into a type of TWF) are going to "fix" that.

Well I would say THF is more Single Target with situational Splash but I suppose that's splitting hairs.

I think S&B needs some help with its identity and with its overall DPS.

I've already made the suggestions on those points. You don't need to make it another TWF style but some off hand proc shield bash attacks would be well suited to it and appropriate. Its defensive benefit is largely not there. instead of straight DR which eeks into the Bard class features adding in some proc'd shield blocks would make it more style appropriate and different.


You bring up a point about aggro management though and that could be something that may need to be addressed as well.

S&B even with added Shield Bash Procs will not compete for straight DPS with the other melee styles so perhaps as an added bonus have the Shield Mastery Feats add x% Hate Generation (each). where x equals whatever works ;)

Aesop

[Truga]

Won't S&B get a significant dps boost with bastards swords/dwarven axes in U7? Considering the rather large boost to THF mechanics. Has anyone tried this on Lama?

That said, "Improved Shield Bash" should be changed with "Improved Shield Stance" or something like that. What it should do is allow hitting stuff with your weapon while blocking, since the major bonus from shield comes only when blocking.

Also, to fix the scaling problem (DR owns early, but isn't really that awesome later on). Currently the blocking formula for shield is: (BAB / 2) + other bonuses. Maybe change it to (BAB/2)**1.7. This wouldn't change much at low levels:
Level: old DR, new DR
1: 0, 0
2: 1, 1
4: 2, 3
6: 3, 6
8: 4, 10
10: 5, 15
12: 6, 21
14: 7, 27
16: 8, 34
18: 9, 41
20: 10, 5050 with the shield bonus (I think 4+5 for a +5 tower shield) and feat bonuses would be a good number at level 20?

[Vormaerin]

Well I would say THF is more Single Target with situational Splash but I suppose that's splitting hairs.

I think S&B needs some help with its identity and with its overall DPS.

Aesop

As I said, DDO doesn't follow the classic divisions very well. THF is not pure AoE DPS, but it does rely on its splash damage and AoE effects application to be competitive with the TWF styles. Typically, beating on one mob you'll do better with TWF. Of course, you can construction scenarios where that's not true.

S&B lacks an identity because DPS is the only game in town and that's not its game. You can't have a defensive fighting style be successful in a game that makes defense irrelevant. LotRO guardians had all the S&B stuff you mention and they were generally regarded as gimp because the content didn't require a defensive specialist. You just stuck your raging barbarian equivalent in front of the boss and healed him.

In LotRO they only fixed the problem by a significant change in encounter design combined with a major mechanics change. The equivalent of making Heavy Fort only available on Shields and limiting everyone else to Moderate Fortification.

I don't expect anything that drastic to happen in DDO because S&B, while iconic, is just a way to play a character, not the entire function of two character classes.

[William_the_Bat]

I don't think S&B needs more DPS. If you want DPS, you don't go S&B.

I understand that a lot of end-game raiding types don't care about anything but single-target DPS. S&B is not for them, nor should it be.

S&B is for tanking, and it should be.

But it fails miserably at what it's supposed to be good for.

There are a few reason it fails.. one reason is that AC only helps if you have aggro. Another is that getting meaningful AC gets to be nigh-impossible in the later game.

I propose instead of trying to turn shields into weapons, we actually make them effective as shields.

First, let shields continue to get better after level 8. Shields are a great early game strategy to give a character meaningful AC. Late game, they fail because "meaningful" AC keeps rising, and shields don't get any better.

Let shield AC increase beyond the normal +5 limit, either by removing the limit, or by adding a "superior" suffix or prefix that would add some number to the shield's AC bonus, higher AC at higher levels. A +5 superior 5 shield would be rare, but you'd be that much closer to a meaningful AC.

Second, let us take a feat to get blocking DR when wielding a shield but not blocking. This would be a mid-level feat. Then add another feat to get blocking immunities when not blocking. (blocking is supposed to make you immune to certain special attacks, it says so right in the tips!)

All of a sudden, we can be useful with a shield without shield-block-spam-intimidate, and we've used some of the feats that other styles are spending on TWF or THF.

[Gremmlynn]

just going to point out that you even had to qualify S&B with "if damage mitigation for shields was a bit better"

as for ranged they just don't play well with others. but even if they did their overall Single Target DPS is just too much lower for it to be a good use of a party slot.

I'll play with anyone no matter what their weapon choices are ... but I do feel that the game would be served well by improving those styles that are considered "gimped"

AesopActually, that qualifier is mostly for end game. Personally, I think at the lower levels more shield use would make for easier, but slower, game play. That's an artifact of the system though. If shields were removed from the AC equation and given a passive block chance in the neighborhood of the DPS given up it would even things out across levels until we take enemy casters into account. Add a spell block/reflection function and even that's fixed.

The big thing with lower DPS styles is that any style that trades DPS for DPS mitigation, unless the mitigation is significantly greater, is going to be unpopular simply due to it slowing down game play.

Even if the styles were even and equally popular, they still wouldn't mix well without dumbing down the mobs as far as agro goes. As smart mobs will generally go after the guy with no shield and bigger or more weapons swinging while the guy with the extra defense doesn't get to take advantage of it because he's not getting attacked anyway.

Really, the only fix I can think of would involve going to a more 1e type character system where characters aren't as specialized in a specific combat style and could change as circumstances dictated without giving up so much of their build. This is not likely to happen though.

[MrWizard]

do the numbers on a frenzy barbarian shield bashing with a good shield...

what would he get?

[Bodic]

do the numbers on a frenzy barbarian shield bashing with a good shield...

what would he get?
proabably not small I know a Rogue can get shield+17d6 bashing+assassin vorpal

[joneb1999]

All the ideas I have heard here have validation to some degree and its pretty bad that the devs cant incorporate some of them if not all of them in some manner to make shield using effective for different reasons.

Consider all of the following much of which seems to me to be relatively easy for the devs to do -

* Make shields provide a much higher limit to ac and normal dr / blocking dr

* Increase the usefulness / intensity of effects that they already have such as fire guard to to greater fire guard, or hammerblock to improved hammerblock for instance or allow certain effects between shield and armor to stack such as Sacred.

* Add a bonus combat oriented effect to shields that affect their weapon use such as stun which allows a one weapon user to then get the advantage of that bonus in a addition to whatever his weapon can do (so stunning doesn't take up one of the slots on a weapon that could be put to use for a better dps effect or an additional crowd control effect such as paralysing).

* Allow a shield user a chance to proc a shield bash without having to use shield bash button.

* Get rid of the rule that shield bash means you don't have use of the shield for ac at that time (instead of making people waste a feat on it).