Theory Proposition

[GBantaR]

This being an academic treatise purporting a new theory: Negative Gameplay Skill. (NGS)

I shall illustrate the concept of NGS with an example.

I'm running Swiped Signet at level on Elite, and groups are really slow so I decide to go in solo with a hireling and put "I/P" on the LFM. Now, I don't mind telling you, I'm not one of those guys who can twink his lowbies, artificially jacking their power level off the grid with the bank from my high rollers. Actually, I probably could do so MORE than I currently do, but I just don't have that much bank so it hardly seems worth it. So this run was HARD. The WF party, the archers in the big room, heck even the traps at the beginning. But I MADE it.

Right towards the end of the quest people finally started responding to the LFM, and by the time I finished I had a five-man party (including my hireling), with another Barb, a Rogue and a Cleric. No one had jumped into the quest because it was so close to the end and they didn't want to get an XP hit with their first-time bonus. Since they all wanted to do the quest on Elite, I figured, why not just breeze through it again? I mean, I just soloed it, right? With a five-man PUG it should be a pie walk. (Wait, is it pie or cake?)

Now the concept of NGS comes into play.

*The Rogue critical failed the trap on a 4 or something and it blew up in his face. The Cleric and the other Barb subsequently died in the acid traps. Gritting my teeth, I told them they could res out and come back in if they wanted. (I already got my 1st-time xp so I figured what the heck).

*The spiders killed the Cleric again. >.<

*The WF party shredded us. For some reason, I died, despite having handled them admirably on my solo run. The other Barb and the Rogue also died but this time the Cleric survived, either Commanding or Tripping the WF (I wasn't close enough to see) and then beating him to death as he lay on the ground. Yay. (Ish). I had already set the precedent so after all of these deaths we just res'ed and came back in.

*The archers in the big room got my hireling and the Rogue (who wasn't sneaking).

*Finally we get to the hallways. Mage=ice storm=party wipe.

Finally, I ragequit.

All right. NGS. What is it? It's a lack of gameplay skill so pronounced, that you actually DETRACT from the capabilities of a party by joining it. In this case, I would say the Cleric and the Rogue had a severe case of NGS. Here's what could have prevented all the above:

CLERIC:
*The Cleric could have jumped over the acid traps like I showed him, not tried to run through them. Maybe he thought his heavy armor would protect him. O.o I blame the other Barb less for their death, as it happened on accident while they were kiting the spiders away from the Cleric in a futile attempt to save his life.

*The Cleric (who was not specc'ed for a battle cleric and, really, couldn't have been one anyway at that level) could have not pulled more aggro than he could handle with the spiders.

*The Cleric could have healed the barb who dished out way more DPS but was not very defensively capable.

ROGUE:
*The Rogue could have been...well...good.

If I handled the quest very well while on solo with a hireling, then the EXACT SAME QUEST, STILL WITH THE HIRELING (I didn't ditch him when I got the Cleric, mostly because I have trust issues) should have been an absolute breeze with a party of five. The only possible explanation is that some members of the party negatively affected my gameplay by being present in my group.

APPLICATIONS OF NGS
I propose that NGS's primary application be in player recommendation or lack thereof. I am establishing the existence of an NGS "scale" from 1 to 10 that a person can be categorized under. Then, if receiving a party join request, the leader can say, "Joe Shmoe is joining," whereupon a party member could comment, "Oh, no way, that guy's an NGS 10." Whereupon the leader shall click "Decline."

Thoughts?

[FlyingTurtle]

If I handled the quest very well while on solo with a hireling, then the EXACT SAME QUEST, STILL WITH THE HIRELING (I didn't ditch him when I got the Cleric, mostly because I have trust issues) should have been an absolute breeze with a party of five. The only possible explanation is that some members of the party negatively affected my gameplay by being present in my group.

Taking into account dungeon scaling, the baseline for NGS should not be "solo with hireling", but "solo with hireling and 4 other members who pike at the entrance".

Anyway, I believe the first well-documented case of how NGS made it into popular culture is a seminal paper documenting that case of one L. Jenkins.

[blitzschlag]

Taking into account dungeon scaling, the baseline for NGS should not be "solo with hireling", but "solo with hireling and 4 other members who pike at the entrance".

Anyway, I believe the first well-documented case of how NGS made it into popular culture is a seminal paper documenting that case of one L. Jenkins.

there is supposed to be no dungeon scaling on elite

[GBantaR]

Taking into account dungeon scaling, the baseline for NGS should not be "solo with hireling", but "solo with hireling and 4 other members who pike at the entrance".

Anyway, I believe the first well-documented case of how NGS made it into popular culture is a seminal paper documenting that case of one L. Jenkins.

O.o

I feel like I shouldn't need to ask this but...what's dungeon scaling?

[GreenGurgler]

Yeah your assessment is flawed because of two issues (both of which could be considerd dungeon scaling) that you did not consider. You have to consider more than just your party makeup.

First is the quests are designed to be more difficult from normal to hard then a big jump from hard to elite. Elite is not just a step up from hard but a BIG step up. Especially elite traps. They are harder to disarm and are extremely deadly on elite. That explains two of the deaths from your example.

Second, You went from solo to a 5 man party. This causes the DDO dungeon scaling to kick in. DS increases the difficulty with more players in a party (or conversely reduces the difficulty if the party is short manning). I am not certain of the specifics of how it works only that it was designed to make it easier for solo'ers.

I'm not sure what Blitzschlag exactly is referring too or if it actually applies for your example. You did : go in on elite when you ran hard prior so the dungeon DOES scale to elite difficulty. Also, you DID go in with 5 people vs 1 so that should kick in some level of DS.

You experienced a double whammy right off the bat. You changed two variables in the equation and are trying to make an assessment about the skill of players based on a flawed equation.

IMHO, you need to flesh out all of the other variables first. Then you need to eliminate any of the subjective variables and look only at the objective.

[flynnjsw]

O.o

I feel like I shouldn't need to ask this but...what's dungeon scaling?

I am sure this will be answered more than once, but dungeon scaling changes the difficulty of the dungeon based on how many players are in it on all difficulties except for Elite. So a quest will be more difficult with a full party as opposed to solo.

[Baahb3]

There is no scaling on elite difficulty. The OP stated that he soloed it on elite before getting the PUG together. The additional players did not make the second elite run scale any differently than the first elite run.

[GBantaR]

Yeah your assessment is flawed because of two issues (both of which could be considerd dungeon scaling) that you did not consider. You have to consider more than just your party makeup.

First is the quests are designed to be more difficult from normal to hard then a big jump from hard to elite. Elite is not just a step up from hard but a BIG step up. Especially elite traps. They are harder to disarm and are extremely deadly on elite. That explains two of the deaths from your example.

Second, You went from solo to a 5 man party. This causes the DDO dungeon scaling to kick in. DS increases the difficulty with more players in a party (or conversely reduces the difficulty if the party is short manning). I am not certain of the specifics of how it works only that it was designed to make it easier for solo'ers.

I'm not sure what Blitzschlag exactly is referring too or if it actually applies for your example. You did : go in on elite when you ran hard prior so the dungeon DOES scale to elite difficulty. Also, you DID go in with 5 people vs 1 so that should kick in some level of DS.

You experienced a double whammy right off the bat. You changed two variables in the equation and are trying to make an assessment about the skill of players based on a flawed equation.

IMHO, you need to flesh out all of the other variables first. Then you need to eliminate any of the subjective variables and look only at the objective.

First of all, I want to say that I appreciate your response is a thoughtful and polite one, not a flame. Thank you.

However, as stated by Baahb, I did state in my original post that I soloed it on Elite before recruiting more into the PUG.

Also, according to him and others, Elite does not do dungeon scaling.

Therefore the proposition stands!

[MrCow]

there is supposed to be no dungeon scaling on elite

The situations dungeon scaling does not apply:

Epic Difficulty
Raid instances
Purple-Named creatures


Dungeon Scaling does indeed occur on Elite. It is lessened (about half the amount of scaling damage received and scaling down hit points of monsters that takes place on normal), but it is present.

[Baahb3]

The situations dungeon scaling does not apply:

Epic Difficulty
Raid instances
Purple-Named creatures


Dungeon Scaling does indeed occur on Elite. It is lessened (about half the amount of scaling damage received and scaling down hit points of monsters that takes place on normal), but it is present.

Hmm. I really did not think it did. I have not tested extensivly, may have to test it some.

It is unfortunately really that it does.

*Note: I would take MrCow's word on this over others, including my own! :)

[Nospheratus]

NGS seems to be contagious and the OP has been infected. STAY AWAY! :P

[GBantaR]

NGS seems to be contagious and the OP has been infected. STAY AWAY! :P

:P yourself sir. But +1 because it made me laugh, and opened up a new field of discovery in this burgeoning science.

Perhaps there IS contagion of NGS. Maybe I sunk to about -2 or -3 NGS due to my association with these obviously -6 or below players. But this opens up a corollary datum, and a hope for rehabilitation for NGS players: Positive Gameplay Skill, and the "contagion" thereof!

Must gather scientific data to formulate my next theory!

*Breaks out notepad and logs into game*

[Nospheratus]

I wouldn't worry too much though, i'm sure the Turbine Store has a cure for it ;)