Why is the quality of ''most'' players decreasing?

[jaysor]

I stopped playing DDO a while ago, then restarted last month, only to realize that I've got all of the world's difficulties to find decent grouping in lower levels (4-12, i start at level 4; started some new toons). It's weird, I didn't recall having that much trouble.

I see more and more people totally unable to do what they're ''made'' for. Barbarians that can't kill s**t (didn't even think that was possible) and have less HP then my Favored Soul of lower level, EVEN WHEN RAGED. Rogues that blow traps like there's no tomorrow... A LEVEL 7 ROGUE SHOULD NOT BLOW A TRAP ON GWYLAN HARD! My rogue level 7 is not even a mechanic(assasin) and succeed on a 1 ON ELITE, not even failed. Let's not talk about casters... most of them use up all of their SP without me noticing anything... if you're not doing damage significantly, at least, keep the party hasted, it will help more than a non-meta, non-potency, non-enhanced firewall on non-undead. And, well, just people that dont really understand how the games works. Seriously, a level 10 two-handed(or 2-weapon) fighter should probably not care about his ac. If you have 28 instead of 22, you probably wont notice it. Get something with dr and your hp high. Tempest spine is easy as hell... why in the nine hells do people fall like leaves even on normal? Or need 3 healers? There's a shrine at every corner in there! I don't get it, really.
And rangers... there are exeptions, but most of them do dubiously low DPS, have no HP, no AC, and well, nothing going for them.

I have asked myself why is there that many dubious build that make there way to these level, before, most bad char dropped after level 6, so the ones left were mostly decent. I've got a theory... guilds buffs... on lower levels, they make a big deal of difference, allowing poorly made toons to squeal there way up levels. I dont love guild buff for another reason, there is always someone who takes forever when everyone is ready to get buffed. I love when i can play, not when i run around a ship clicking on anything, or waiting for someone else who does it.

Anyway, I just tought that if I played with my higher-level toons, well, I would be less annoyed by that. I enter with my level 19 fighter to run shroud (pretty easy allows to get back in the toon)... OMG, this was bad, really bad, we pulled it out, i dont know how. Looks like no one was listening to the party leader, who, DESPERATLY, tried to speak/tip to guide people. It took about half an hour to do second part, i was seriously about to quit, people were running around, keeping generals together and just pretty much kill them whenever they felt like... And then part 4 arrives, and that was equally(even more) horrible. First, one of our healer got killed first round, which didn't impress me at all. After 2 round, we were 4 left up. I must command the healer who took SP pots... I wouldn't have done so with a party like that. And then well, since it went all that horrible and only 2 were going to completion, i just quit along with the barb that was beside me vs Harry.

I just wanted to had, yeah, I'm not pleased with the ''new'' DDO. I dont mind playing with weaker toons (not imcompetents), as long they can listen and dont play Leeroy-ish.

[Veileira]

Barbarians get so many hp it's fine to start them with 10 con didn't you know?

[Grosbeak07]

The game has become so easy in many ways, that most people just 2,3 or 4 man something rather than pug. That means that a significant amount of good players you'll never run into unless its on the odd raid.

With the arrival of TR where nearly every single point of xp counts, people are very careful what they do and who they play with as a result pugs are an adventure.

[Gremmlynn]

I stopped playing DDO a while ago, then restarted last month, only to realize that I've got all of the world's difficulties to find decent grouping in lower levels (4-12, i start at level 4; started some new toons). It's weird, I didn't recall having that much trouble.

I see more and more people totally unable to do what they're ''made'' for. Barbarians that can't kill s**t (didn't even think that was possible) and have less HP then my Favored Soul of lower level, EVEN WHEN RAGED. Rogues that blow traps like there's no tomorrow... A LEVEL 7 ROGUE SHOULD NOT BLOW A TRAP ON GWYLAN HARD! My rogue level 7 is not even a mechanic(assasin) and succeed on a 1 ON ELITE, not even failed. Let's not talk about casters... most of them use up all of their SP without me noticing anything... if you're not doing damage significantly, at least, keep the party hasted, it will help more than a non-meta, non-potency, non-enhanced firewall on non-undead. And, well, just people that dont really understand how the games works. Seriously, a level 10 two-handed(or 2-weapon) fighter should probably not care about his ac. If you have 28 instead of 22, you probably wont notice it. Get something with dr and your hp high. Tempest spine is easy as hell... why in the nine hells do people fall like leaves even on normal? Or need 3 healers? There's a shrine at every corner in there! I don't get it, really.
And rangers... there are exeptions, but most of them do dubiously low DPS, have no HP, no AC, and well, nothing going for them.

I have asked myself why is there that many dubious build that make there way to these level, before, most bad char dropped after level 6, so the ones left were mostly decent. I've got a theory... guilds buffs... on lower levels, they make a big deal of difference, allowing poorly made toons to squeal there way up levels. I dont love guild buff for another reason, there is always someone who takes forever when everyone is ready to get buffed. I love when i can play, not when i run around a ship clicking on anything, or waiting for someone else who does it.

Anyway, I just tought that if I played with my higher-level toons, well, I would be less annoyed by that. I enter with my level 19 fighter to run shroud (pretty easy allows to get back in the toon)... OMG, this was bad, really bad, we pulled it out, i dont know how. Looks like no one was listening to the party leader, who, DESPERATLY, tried to speak/tip to guide people. It took about half an hour to do second part, i was seriously about to quit, people were running around, keeping generals together and just pretty much kill them whenever they felt like... And then part 4 arrives, and that was equally(even more) horrible. First, one of our healer got killed first round, which didn't impress me at all. After 2 round, we were 4 left up. I must command the healer who took SP pots... I wouldn't have done so with a party like that. And then well, since it went all that horrible and only 2 were going to completion, i just quit along with the barb that was beside me vs Harry.

I just wanted to had, yeah, I'm not pleased with the ''new'' DDO. I dont mind playing with weaker toons (not imcompetents), as long they can listen and dont play Leeroy-ish.With F2P there are enough other players without your high standards to group with to make it worth our while for us incompetents to play. I'd say I'm sorry you're not pleased with our presence, but I'm to honest to pretend I care one way or the other. Now if this where a game about spelling, I could understand some angst about incompetence...

[Consumer]

The game has become so easy in many ways, that most people just 2,3 or 4 man something rather than pug. That means that a significant amount of good players you'll never run into unless its on the odd raid.

With the arrival of TR where nearly every single point of xp counts, people are very careful what they do and who they play with as a result pugs are an adventure.

To back this up, I've been running tear of Dhakaan at level 5 with 3 other guildies and no healer, there were no deaths and completions were around 10 mins.

Even with a healer or two in a PUG the completion time would have been much longer and I can guarantee there would have been deaths. So much easier to avoid PUGs.

The problem is that now the kind of players that are avoided in game have started posting on the forum, soon may have to leave as I'm losing patience.

[Chai]

Perhaps the lens that this quality is being analyzed through is changing....

When I was making all my newbie mistakes, there were only other newbies around to LOL at me. This is not the case nowdays with players that have 4+ years of experience. The majority of available players have less experience than I do. If I expect them to play to my standard, who is at fault here?

[breadstick]

Quite simple really...

FTP = More new players = More casual players = Less 1337 players.

I don't see what all the kerfuffle about PUG's is...I pug pretty much exclusively and it usually works out fine. Obviously there are occasions where it just doesn't work out, but it would be boring if there was no risk of failure.

[jaysor]

With F2P there are enough other players without your high standards to group with to make it worth our while for us incompetents to play. I'd say I'm sorry you're not pleased with our presence, but I'm to honest to pretend I care one way or the other. Now if this where a game about spelling, I could understand some angst about incompetence...

It's not all about having a non-optimal character, it's mostly about being, at the very least, able to listen to people with more experience, or, in fact about anyone. I'm not asking people to have perfect builds, I just don't want total imcompetents. Maybe i just had too much horrible teams lately.

[Frodo_Lives]

There are a lot of pretty useless players out there that you can have the misfortune to PuG with. People who don't have a penny invested in the game (or very little) and have little reason or incentive to care about improving their character or their own play. This results in some pretty ugly nights of PuGing.

The game has also been dumbed down to a great extent (I'm looking at you Dungeon Scaling) with very little penalty for failure. This also makes it harder to learn the way that most vets did. I learned through trial and error, and the errors hurt due to the death penalty. There was great incentive to make sure you didn't make the same mistakes over and over.

That being said, this game is a lot more complicated and has a ton more options then when it came out. There is a LOT more to learn. Combine this with the fact that there are tons of twinked out characters and players who know every quest inside and out to carry new players through quests who really don't want to spend the time to teach or pass knowledge along because it would slow down their xp per minute ratio leads to a lot of people still being in the dark about the whats and whys of DDO even at high level.

Before I get neg rep'd to death, I am not saying that we have to spend our nights teaching the masses all there is to know about DDO, but I remember a time when the player base was small enough that people did go out of their way to pass knowledge along and help out others for no other reason that because the player base was so small you were likely to run with them again, and often.

Bottom line is there are a lot of noobish players around, a lot more then there used to be. But I can't say it's a surprise, tons of new players will mean some of them are not, and may never be, any **** good. But there are reasons why the game is both harder and easier to learn and play. I don't think it's fair to compare today's new players to the new players of years past, and I certainly don't think it's fair to dump them all in the same catagory of "you suck" and more than it's fair to dump all vets in the "elitist prick" catagory.

Take the good with the bad, for every bad PuG I am in I usually have a good one to balance it out. For every freakishly nightmarish one, I have a good story.

[nolaureltree000]

at low levels and especially on f2p content at low levels, ill myDDO check everyone that hits my LFM. if i dont like their stat distribution or they have something like 40 HP at level 7, ill decline their invite. its also a good bet that as you get to higher levels, if they have 0% fort they are probably a n00b.

sometimes it takes awhile, as ill decline 5 to every 1 i accept, but i feel it does alot to ensure im creating a decent party.

[Consumer]

at low levels and especially on f2p content at low levels, ill myDDO check everyone that hits my LFM. if i dont like their stat distribution or they have something like 40 HP at level 7, ill decline their invite. its also a good bet that as you get to higher levels, if they have 0% fort they are probably a n00b.

sometimes it takes awhile, as ill decline 5 to every 1 i accept, but i feel it does alot to ensure im creating a decent party.

MyDDO isn't worth it, throw up an in progress LFM and start the q, if the player is competent they will catch up, if not its no problem.

[dunklezhan]

To back this up, I've been running tear of Dhakaan at level 5 with 3 other guildies and no healer, there were no deaths and completions were around 10 mins.

Even with a healer or two in a PUG the completion time would have been much longer and I can guarantee there would have been deaths. So much easier to avoid PUGs.

The problem is that now the kind of players that are avoided in game have started posting on the forum, soon may have to leave as I'm losing patience.

/shrug.

Sorry us newbs aren't fast enough for you. What can I say?

Actually, I could say the twelve paragraphs I just wrote ranting about experienced players with no patience for new ones. but it wasn't constructive and was simply because you inadvertently pushed my angry button. So I've snipped them out and will say only this:

Not all the bad players are newbies. And not all definitions of bad are equal. You value player performance in PuGs by speed, damage, and number of character deaths before completion. I value that too, but I value good manners and personal skills far more. In PuGs, sometimes both are bad, but for me the second makes problems with the first much, much more acceptable. Fun even.

[Windex69]

I personally love running in pick up groups.

I really enjoy those moments when you realize just how terribly bad some of the players in your group are. There was once upon a time where I wanted nothing to do with 'pugs' but not today. Static guild runs or running with uber elite people are simply too boring for me to bother.

Where is the fun if there is no challenge?

[Srozbun]

MyDDO isn't worth it, throw up an in progress LFM and start the q, if the player is competent they will catch up, if not its no problem.

not to mention it is currently broken

[moops]

I dont see this as a new vs old issue.

I would think that this would be equally frustrating to new players as well, as they are the ones more times than not, trying to build an equal balanced party often times for dungeons that they have never run. It kinda sucks when you think your are getting a Caster who will have some basic crowd control, but they started out with 10 in their main casting stat, or pick up a rogue who put no points in disable and can't even spot traps--or people who just can't listen to the group leader.

[Gremmlynn]

It's not all about having a non-optimal character, it's mostly about being, at the very least, able to listen to people with more experience, or, in fact about anyone. I'm not asking people to have perfect builds, I just don't want total imcompetents. Maybe i just had too much horrible teams lately.That's just the nature of PUGing. If you want to avoid all us incompetents, you have to make an effort to find a pool of competent players and stick to only grouping with them. IMO it's asking to much to expect everybody else to live up to your standards and the onus is on you to find those who do if that's your expectation. For myself, I just don't take this game seriously enough to get bent out of shape about what I may or may not accomplish when playing.

[PopeJual]

I blame the rate of assimilation.

If you have a population of 1000 quality players and 100 new players come on board, those 100 new players will pick up the existing culture quickly and they will learn play skills quickly because they will end up constantly grouping with good players just by chance. The majority of those new players will assimilate because they will be surrounded by an existing culture.

If you have a population of 1000 quality players and 2000 new players come on board, those 2000 new players will end up grouping with each other frequently and they will end up overwhelming the existing player base to the point where the existing player base won't want to join up with them and a vet vs. newb mentality will arise because the vets will feel that they are under seige.

Think about what happened when the Festivult jester showed up. At the beginning of the day, people asked where the Jester was and they got useful, polite answers. By the end of the day, people were so fed up with that question, that the best answer that you would even hope to see on /advice was "LOOK AT YOUR GODDAM MAP, NOOB."

When the volume of new players overwhelms the existing player base, they will not have the same opportunity to pick up good play style habits through the examples of those better players as the pre-F2P folks did. It's not anyone's fault. It's just a trait of a rapidly expanding population. It happens in rapidly growing companies. It happens in rapidly growing neighborhoods. It happens in rapidly growing games. It happens.

[protokon]

...beating a dead horse here, but thought i'd give my 2 cents anyways.

With the arrival of the TR system and needing significantly more exp to level (absurd amount would probably not be an exaggeration), the increase of volume of newer, less-talented gamers (from the f2p change last year) you have vets more and more keeping to themselves, in tight groups that they trust.

I myself am taking a much-needed break from the game, fed up with too many bugs and the lack of urgency to fix broken things (such as the ladder bug which has been around since mod 1? hello?) or the insane lag issue on my home server of thelanis.

keep pushing out those low level adventure packs to make money, as we all know fixing bugs isn't productive financially. neither is proper customer service apparently, from what i've heard as well (people losing year's of grinding ingredients due to various bugs that cause ingredient bags to 'vanish')

solution: join a guild of competent players that you like playing with, and stick with em. most of the time, with a few good friends on your friends list, you can carry pugs with 2 or 3 strong players in the group through almost anything. or just short-man it like the rest of the vets do and let the pugs fend for themselves.

[Gremmlynn]

solution: join a guild of competent players that you like playing with, and stick with em. most of the time, with a few good friends on your friends list, you can carry pugs with 2 or 3 strong players in the group through almost anything. or just short-man it like the rest of the vets do and let the pugs fend for themselves.Exactly. It makes little sense to complain about incompatible group mates when there is such a simple way to avoid it.

[Vellrad]

not to mention it is always broken

Fixed for you :)

[Aranticus]

Perhaps the lens that this quality is being analyzed through is changing....

When I was making all my newbie mistakes, there were only other newbies around to LOL at me. This is not the case nowdays with players that have 4+ years of experience. The majority of available players have less experience than I do. If I expect them to play to my standard, who is at fault here?

The lens didn't really change but rather the quality really dropped. To quote an example, I was in a tempest run on normal with a pug group. There was a TRed L10 monk. He was zeroing ahead and did not have remove curse, remove blindness or lesser restore potions. He was constantly asking for status removal throughout the run

Later after completing, I put up a relic "be self sufficient" run and he applied. I declined and he questioned why I rejected his application

[protokon]

funny story last time i did a PUG abbot (friend of mine was leading it):

(random conversation between the puggers, player B brags about being on his 4th life)

friend(over voice)player A scout left, player B scout middle, player C scout right please.

player B: what is scouting, I have only done this raid once

friend(over voice)oh, I assumed you knew what the f**k you were doing, being a 4x TR

...doh!

[Aranticus]

funny story last time i did a PUG abbot (friend of mine was leading it):

(random conversation between the puggers, player B brags about being on his 4th life)

friend(over voice)player A scout left, player B scout middle, player C scout right please.

player B: what is scouting, I have only done this raid once

friend(over voice)oh, I assumed you knew what the f**k you were doing, being a 4x TR

...doh!

Well to that players defense, abbot isn't really that pug friendly. If the raid was shroud, then I agree with you 100%

[Trillea]

MyDDO isn't worth it, throw up an in progress LFM and start the q, if the player is competent they will catch up, if not its no problem.

I would have to disagree, neg10p IS a problem.

[Dylvish]

Perhaps the lens that this quality is being analyzed through is changing....

When I was making all my newbie mistakes, there were only other newbies around to LOL at me. This is not the case nowdays with players that have 4+ years of experience. The majority of available players have less experience than I do. If I expect them to play to my standard, who is at fault here?

^^ This.

[xxScoobyDooxx]

at lvl 18-20 I haven't found that many times you pug with people with zero idea ... the odd one but not often .......

however last night while doing multiple weapons shipment runs, come and go etc, we had at least 6 people join and have no idea where the quest was.

"what house?"
"where's the 12"
"its in the marketplace right?"

Each person got one set of help and not one of them made it to the quest.

Never struck so many in such a short period of time.

[voodoogroves]

I seem to be saying this a lot these days: You can cap without knowing plenty of the content.


There are, I think, a few factors at play:

LEAP-FROGGING CAPABILITIES
========================
Your first character was likely a gimp; you just didn't know it at the time. You had to learn the game and start building up some loot. Your 2nd generation characters were better but you may have rerolled some of them too. By the time you have the Tangleroot +3 stat items, vet status, good BTA items like that ML5 moderate fort ring, good non-BTA items like that outfit of invulnerability/gravnok's band, good +4 stat ML7 items (mystic belt, the con necklace) and a bank of taps waiting for each character when they hit to 11 you can fly by content.

You didn't get there immediately, your character's capabilities and your own skills leapfrog each other. After you pass each stage



LESS THAN PLEASANT VETS //or// ABSENT VETS
=====================================
Unless you read the forums first, you probably realized the value of fortification and other things AFTER being on the receiving end of the pointed stick in the unmentionables. You may have been lucky and had a vet teach you, but more than likely you also had to deal with a number of cantankerous vets who can't believe you made such stupid mistakes, you n00b.

This has some potential pitfalls.

For one, you may start just running with people you enjoy playing with more ... other people in PUGs who aren't as overly critical of your build. You haven't realized that those mean old vets need to work on tact, they kinda have some things right. You can build a **** sorcerer with no HP and no CHA and probably greataxe your way through the lower levels ... but you WILL start to have problems of a more serious nature later. By insulating yourself, you're hindering your own education.

The vets for their part come here and complain. Then we solo stuff or also only run with guilds/friends so we don't have to deal with you or your kind and help perpetuate the cycle from our side.



XP IS EASY, LEARNING CONTENT TAKES TIME (and can level you right through other content without you learning it)
==================================
I've not TR'd yet; still working on all my 20s prior to doing so. I've capped a few characters and am about to cap a few more. I've also run a number of characters up to the mid-teens and deleted them for various reasons.

To assume from this that I know the lower level content would be a mistake. To assume I know the higher level content well enough would be tragic. I've only set foot in 3BC a few times - I think I did one quest in there once. I've never done Devil's Assault, only done the House P carnival once. I've not done the Abbot yet (only have one of my capped characters flagged), haven't done ToD yet (no boots on any of mine yet, and only one flagged). I'm fairly certain there are F2P quests I don't know either. Thing is, learning that content means running it a few times on a few different characters. If it's your first life and you go from VON & Red Fens to Menechtarum with a few Tempest Runs in there and flag for the raids, then do a few raids at level, you're staring at XP-ing yourself right out of Gianthold. If you really run the GH quests enough to get the relics on a toon and not just hand them over from some other bank, you'll be 15-16 pretty easily there with maybe some time to do a few at-level in the Orchard. Flag for the shroud and actually farm some stuff to make some greensteel and you're 17-18 easy. If your luck is bad you can step into Reaver's Refuge and get a level as you fail to get good DT armor. A few repeats in the IQ or Amrath, your choice, and you're capped.

If I show up for a Litany/Abbot deal with a capped 20 I'll be up front and make sure folks know I'm a first-timer, same with ToD. And the 2nd half of IQ (the Island bit - still only done a few of those).

If we assume someone who's at a particular level MUST know the quest, that is a mistake in judgement on our part.

[MeliCat]

on my first capped character i got to level 20 and there were still a *lot* of things i didn't know that most vets would assume was just basic stuff. it was embarassing when i realised all those little nuances. and i still find stuff that i should know and don't. this game is big and complicated and it's easy to level. it just takes time to work it all out. and discover what you don't know - and that you didn't even know you had to know it!

heh. and people keep asking me when i'm going to TR something. i have 8 mains on one account and 6 on the other. trying to do one of every class so i understand them all a bit better. i do have long long term plans to TR about 7 of those and am slowly gearing up for that. but i don't want curly things around my name until i'm fully prepared and knowledgeable so that people won't assume i know stuff when i don't. (when i finally create a ranger - she's a dark monk atm - she's going to be geared absolutely kick ass - chattering ring, head, and 7 finger so far obtained. as to whether i can actually *play* her competantly is an entirely a differenet question!)

[dunklezhan]

it's easy to level.

I wish I found that. So far, I've found it very easy to level to ten. Then I just.... stop. If you put up an LFM people expect you to know the quest. If you put up an LFM saying you need a guide no-one joins. The quests really aren't soloable unless you already know the quest.

So I have 10 characters on Argo. Two of them are level 4 ish. The rest are level 8-12. The ones that are twelve got there in the last couple of months. Yes, months. After a year of playing. Its getting a little easier now I've found a guild, but **** I need some more euros on board because getting enough players on who have characters in my level range who are also not wanting to endlessly grind the shroud or TOD is extremely difficult (to their credit the guild are actively looking for euros because they want more people on across all time zones so that there's even more of a community feel than they already have). When there are people available its a blast and I get loads done, usually a whole AP in an evening, sometimes nearly two. Although I'm often finding still that I have to bring a toon who's a little underlevel, and take XP penalties because the highest level in the group is a little too high.

When there aren't people available though... its basically grind explorers and rares because I can just about reliably do that with a hireling. Or its switch to a lower level alt because I know just about everything below L10 except red fens and carnival very well indeed. Because I've spent a year there.


I'm sure over time this situation will change. But for now, I really do have problems levelling.


Does this make me a useless noob? I rather hope not, though I'd certainly agree that after a year of playing, when it comes to anything over L10 I'm still a newb, and that also applies to chunks of content at about L8 - 10 too. I think this does make the case though that dungeon scaling or not, this game is intended for groups, and groups will have better success (and that's a good thing).

But my experience, on Argo during the European evening, the grouping options at L10 up are really very poor pickings if you've never done those quests before, unless you are happy only doing quests that other people want to do (and even then half the small number of LFMs say BYOH - which I can't afford anyway - or 'know the quest' which, obviously, I don't). I get the impressions that vets see the 'looking for a guide' note and avoid like the plague. But I'm certainly not going to hide the fact I haven't done the quest, because threads like this make it fairly clear that there are many impatient vets and TRs out there. And I can't be bothered with the aggro during my leisure time.

So slowly it is. I can live with that for now. I hope. At least when I do finally cap a character I'll be able to legitimately say I've got experience!

[blitzschlag]

did not read your whole rant op.

just answering your topic:

because "most" players chars won't see lvl 11+ quests anyway. so its like a offline roleplaying game where you can build your dex/cha maxxed wizard and still succeed. in ddo its enough to have 1 halfway competent player to get a full group through every (up to lvl 9) quest up to elite difficulty.

[Feylina]

Most vets i know either solo to 10+ or guild group short man to the same. So 90% of players you see are probably newer players. I just got sick of listening to new players that have absolutely no clue and to top it all off they refute most advice they are give.

I say let them live and learn. DDO has almost created a segregated environment between F2P and P2P, even if the P2P is just someone that buys packs.

as others have pointed out, toons look totally different from the F2P point of view. If they are never going past 11 - 14 they will be building to that level range / content. it's actually quite wierd.

[platonicx]

Because ... casual difficulty .. trap nerf .... adding shrines to some quests .... P2P hirelings which can fill ur whole party ... you name it ... Easy buttons everywhere
Started playing right at the start of F2P ..... stopped for like 5 months came back and now i am scared of all the noobs :-O

[Tom318]

at low levels and especially on f2p content at low levels, ill myDDO check everyone that hits my LFM. if i dont like their stat distribution or they have something like 40 HP at level 7, ill decline their invite. its also a good bet that as you get to higher levels, if they have 0% fort they are probably a n00b.

sometimes it takes awhile, as ill decline 5 to every 1 i accept, but i feel it does alot to ensure im creating a decent party.

If you decline 5 for every 1 you accept, then you'd have to decline 30 people before you get a group. How long does it take before 30 people apply?

[Tom318]

Most vets i know either solo to 10+ or guild group short man to the same. So 90% of players you see are probably newer players. I just got sick of listening to new players that have absolutely no clue and to top it all off they refute most advice they are give.

I say let them live and learn. DDO has almost created a segregated environment between F2P and P2P, even if the P2P is just someone that buys packs.

as others have pointed out, toons look totally different from the F2P point of view. If they are never going past 11 - 14 they will be building to that level range / content. it's actually quite wierd.

I guess from the POV of a casual player someone grinding in a computer game seems weird.

[Lord_WC]

I fail to see the point. I mean you can get to lvl10 in about two or three days. One/two days more on a double tr. From VoN/Sands pugs are getting better and better. Hardly any noob has VoN, and most of them usually dies on their way to the quest in Sands and in GH. Just solo it until that level it goes pretty fast (well, much faster than waiting for a group). Also tag your groups as byoh, not newb friendly, zerg. Most of the noobs run away screaming from this.

[blitzschlag]

I guess from the POV of a casual player someone grinding in a computer game seems weird.

yeah, but as always the casual gamer declares his kind of fun as the only one existing...

[Bodic]

My absolute favorite was coming across a Cleric That didnt have the "Heal Spell" in his book

Note: This was after we killed an Epic Crateos

[JDCrowell]

I wish I found that. So far, I've found it very easy to level to ten. Then I just.... stop. If you put up an LFM people expect you to know the quest. If you put up an LFM saying you need a guide no-one joins. The quests really aren't soloable unless you already know the quest.
*snip*


^^ This right here is my problem. I never see an LFM up for anything I want to run or feel confident to run. I don't feel comfortable leading a Shroud run after only 3 completions, but I want to run it every time my timer is up even if my static group isn't online at the time.

The only time I put up an LFM is when I have a clue as to how the quest should go and/or could solo it if I was able to.

I've always wanted to know the proper protocol and courtesy with this:
I want to run a quest I've never run or don't know much about, but am in no way shape or form fit to lead. I could put up "Need Guide" but then that seems to be just a big sign saying "STAY AWAY FROM THE NOOOB" haha

Any thoughts?

[Chai]

The lens didn't really change but rather the quality really dropped. To quote an example, I was in a tempest run on normal with a pug group. There was a TRed L10 monk. He was zeroing ahead and did not have remove curse, remove blindness or lesser restore potions. He was constantly asking for status removal throughout the run

Later after completing, I put up a relic "be self sufficient" run and he applied. I declined and he questioned why I rejected his application

People seem to think that those little TR wings = player knows whats up. This is mistake #1 which I have witnessed alot. Hey youre a TR you should know what youre doing, in fact you should be doing most of the heavy lifting in this quest!! .....NOT!!

In other news it takes 2 weeks to get to level 20, and another week to get to 10ish after TR to run TS with you. Under no circumstances does that mean the player faced much challenge, learned much about self sufficiency, that con is not a dump stat, that heavy fort rules, etc. The list goes on.

After seeing so many people sans 200 hp and heavy fort at level 20 and lots and lots of TRs in the same boat, I still maintain that expecting them to play to your standard, in a PUG no less, is just inviting more disaster. If I want to make a group but not be forced to lead, I hand pick the players. If I expect random PUGers to play to my standard, they will likely fail, but its still my fault for having high expectations of the 5 or 11 random people I pulled into a group from a pool of players of which 9 of 10 have much less experience than I. The numbers just dont add up to success.

[Aranticus]

Having joined a lot of pugs these few days, the number 1 problem I see is the refusal to learn

[Dragavon]

I think it is very unfair to compare new players with us oldtimers. Some of us have been playing the game foir 4 years and know every nook and cranny forwards and backwards.

We have all the RR low level twink gear we can possibly use, and unlimited amounts of plat to buy wands and potions for our little ones.

I remember a time when WW elite was considered a serious challenge for a well coordinated balanced full guild group of lvl 6-7 characters, now we solo/duo it at lvl 3-4.

The new players need to learn a lot in a short time, and too often they end up in groups that move way faster than they can follow, and so learn nothing. And then they get yelled at for beeing useless. I dont envy them :eek:

[Pallol_One-Eye]

I've personally just come back from a year-llong absence from the game. I was a sub since just after General release. Made sense for me to come back as F2P as I have much less time now then I did then.

Let me tell you what, I feel like a newb now. There are so many new quests that I have never seen before. All of the areas have been rearranged that a quest I have run 100+ times before I can't even find the questgiver now, lol.

I was NOT inclined to run with newbs prior to my departure as I "felt" they got in the way of my speed runs. Now, things are a bit different. My old Guild has pretty much imploded, so I just run around unguilded and jump in the occasional PUG.

When I throw out some hints or helpful tips, I'm shocked that players in the group did not know. To me, its just awesome to see someone's "light" flick on and actually get something that they have been pounding their heads on for a while. I'm not hand holding, just throwing out an occasional tip or hint is all.

I'm not going to step on the leader's toes, even if he runs the party into a wipe. I do what I can, grab all the stones and bring them back to a shrine. After the party is rezzed, THEN I'll mention " we could try X or maybe do Y instead" and watch the luck change 100%.

I am also leveling my first TR, but honestly, I don't care if I get in a party with some deaths. My fun may not be someone else's fun is all I'm saying.

I help where I can, if I am questioned I try to explain. Those that make it to my friends list are those who listen and try to better themselves. Those who don't, I just leave by the wayside and hope the "get it" before it "gets them".

/rant off

[voodoogroves]

There is no harm putting up an LFM that says:

"Reaver's Refuge, all quests. I don't know them at all, would love a guide."


I have had exceptionally good luck with LFMs like that. When you post it though, make sure you don't post if for levels where there will be an XP hit.

[Lord_Legolas]

Having joined a lot of pugs these few days, the number 1 problem I see is the refusal to learn

Don't forget to add: "The refusal to listen to anything!" And then there's the "Unresponsive" ones who at some point - usually when they're stone is in someones pocket: "Oh, I don't have audio right now..." Even after they've been sent numerious tells by half the party ;p

Yes! I too remember the good ole days when people would take 'you' under their wing and help and teach 'you' about the game. Back in 2005 my wife and I where those noobs! After that "we" use to help others a great deal, but sadly with the above quote and with what my first responce says, there's little and nothing you can do to 'help those people' when they are unwilling to listend or learn. They want 'The Easy Button" and DDO has given it to them.

We've tried to help people when 'we' went F2P but too many of them just didn't want to listen, and didn't want to learn. You can not help "the unwilling."

[Pallol_One-Eye]

Don't forget to add: "The refusal to listen to anything!"

Yes! I too remember the good ole days when people would take 'you' under their wing and help and teach 'you' about the game. Back in 2005 my wife and I where those noobs! After that "we" use to help others a great deal, but sadly with the above quote and with what my first responce says, there's little and nothing you can do to 'help those people' when they are unwilling to listend or learn. They want 'The Easy Button" and DDO has given it to them.

We've tried to help people when 'we' went F2P but too many of them just didn't want to listen, and didn't want to learn. You can not help "the unwilling."

You also have to remember, so many new peeps get lumped into the "unwilling to learn" crew just because thats who they run with. Its not that they are jackasses on purpose, its just they don't know any better.

Some of the PUGs I have been in lately prove that fact without fail. I would consider myself a "fairly" knowledgeable player, I have seen/run everything in the game up through the IQ. Everything that dropped while I was gone has yet to be touched, so I can't speak to new content.

I invariably find a few tidbits of info given out at the right moment in these groups has gone a long way to increasing the party's competence in said quest. If I share it with a few and they get it, it then stands to reason some of them will pass it on. When this happens, the n00b tends to vanish and gets replaced with a newb, which I personally have never had an issue with.

I'm just saying is all. I have thicker skin than most, so I'm not 100% bothered by it.

[centuar1963]

maybe you just got good finally :)

[Pallol_One-Eye]

maybe you just got good finally :)

You can't be talking to me, everyone knows I am teh suxxorz ;)

[Furbitor]

I stopped playing DDO a while ago,

It's weird, I didn't recall having that much trouble.

I see more and more people totally unable to do what they're ''made'' for.

OK.

Welcome back.

First this isnt the DDO you played before. The palyers we had were people who came from pnp background, and those that wasnt learned fast.

Now with Free 2 play.... You got a gazillion wowsers running amok..and they never played a game where they could build a toon into complete uselessness.


So you are seeing sub-par builds, run by in-ept people, whose attention span is measure in mayfly years, on the next big flashy game, rather than people who wish to learn.

They play and say this sucks.. ohh too hard.

Rather than trying to learn and explore, they want to be guided through quest as if they are kings, and lo is the leader who allows them to wipe.

What happen to a sense of adventure? How about learning themselves.. we did.

there was no hand-holding when this new content came out. The strategies we learned for quests and bosses was earned not given,

time to give the wowsers the full treatment... make them run the content themselves and learn as we did.. it will make better players of them and they will find weaknesses in thier builds much faster. besides I cringe when I hear such stupid myths prepetuated about this quest or that,,,,

"... ohhh we gonna wipe in part 5 of the shroud cause there is a pet!!! DISMISS IT quick!! "

I asked why....... "'cause the bosses has a AOE attack!!!!"

insane

[Paleus]

With regards to the OP theory, the quality of pugs was low well before the advent of ship buffs. With F2P a crop of new people have no actual money investment in their builds, combine that +4 year vets who with uber-gear and exceptional skill are able to carry people through quests when they aren't busy extolling their own virtues, and you can end up with high level, poorly built and poorly geared characters that have no clue about what is going on. Also, when the level cap was lower, you had to grind the same quests repeatedly and get good gear as a byproduct, now with a level cap at 20 you can get all the way to cap and still have crappy gear because you weren't forced to grind for it based on nothing else to do. Especially when you don't realize your gear is crappy.

That said, I am one of the new F2P crowd, transitioned to premium, and I sucked fantastically in the beginning. I listened to advice, read the forums, and tried to figure out why I was dying and how I could prevent it. I still make mistakes from time to time (yesterday I died from a cursed wound even though I had a stack of 50 curse removal pots I somehow didnt see the curse fast enough) Nevertheless, I would have to say far more often than not I contribute to the party's success, can solo some quests faster than I could run them with a group, and don't make the ridiculously bad mistakes that make it onto the forum posts. Some new players need time to develop their skills and some new players will never learn (Example: once ran with a lvl 13 TR monk with 8 con 0 fort that had more deaths than kills after taking one too many lava baths in a VoN pug). The problem is separating out the two types somehow.

[DelScorcho]

I've personally just come back from a year-llong absence from the game. I was a sub since just after General release. Made sense for me to come back as F2P as I have much less time now then I did then.

Let me tell you what, I feel like a newb now. There are so many new quests that I have never seen before. All of the areas have been rearranged that a quest I have run 100+ times before I can't even find the questgiver now, lol.


Hey don't worry about it, I was gone for 10 months playing something else. When I returned, I didn't have any equipment except greensteel and raid loot or plats, and there was a huge amount of new content. Within a few week I was zerging like a champ again. My recommendation is don't jump into the new missions immediately. You may want to either level one of your perma 16s to cap and TR them or roll a new alt. Also sorry to hear about Gravis. Same thing happened to BCC while I was away, but I met up with old friends.

On the original topic, it breaks down to this. Each person is ultimately responsible for the safety of their own toon. This is not a responsibility that can be deligated to the cleric or FVS. Even a frenzied barb need to be watching his own health bar, and back out of combat if he is going to go down. Keep topping off your stack of cure serious/repair serious pots. Everyone needs to bring some form of elemental resist or protection into the mission. You don't need stacks of 100 blindness/curse removal pots, but you do need some after level 4, because if you don't have them, you can become a burden to your party. Lesser restore pots should always be stocked. Find room on your equipment slots for disease immunity and proof against poison (you can use 5 minute pots, too) unless immune. Heavy fort is required at least by 11 or 8 on a WF. These are things vets know and noobs don't yet suspect.

[JohnWarlock]

First of all, personally I love pugging.

You want to be elite? the best? uber? you really aren't a skilled veteran until you can complete quests on elite with a terrible pug. See almost any vet can solo quests on elite, it's the truly gifted that can complete it with an awful pug... LOL

Now on a still not so serious side, according to research, one of my favorite things to do if I want to avoid really bad pugs is decline, paladins and rogues. Don't get me wrong I have no hatred against this classes, the problem is, according to a WoW player friend, that all the n00bs make those classes in WoW cause they are the easiest to play or PvP with, ergo they think DDO is the same and don't understand why their rogues can't do traps, die and can't do dps and they have no clue what is up with Palainds.. Sadly two of the most complicated classes in DDO along with Monks. :D

On a serious note now the problems with new players is all the n00bs that mess up your reputation so to speak. As a ?veteran? I don't know if I would consider myself that, I know some, not everything, I play more for the fun of it, but I do like to complete my quests. Anyways, the problem is the n00bs don't want to listen, and have this attitude of I know what I'm doing.... FACEWALL.

Example:

Playing with a n00b sorc in a Shadow Crypt run.

Man firewall the vampire and scorching ray him.

I am but his health is barely going down. Sadly it was a wipe.

Ummm well how much damage where you doing? 20 - 40 hps

Umm you don't have empower / Maximize? a greater potency IV item?
Nah man I have eschew materials because I have low strength, and I'm working towards Mobile Spell Casting, My firewall is good as it is. I don't need Empower Maximize, that's a waste of spell points. It's too expensive. No I'm not going to loose mana on that.

Well at least you have a Potency Item right?
No I have a Power VI club and a Power VIII dagger in my off hand.

I tried explaining that they didn't stack, he said that I was wrong, and he needed them for the mana. I left.

[t0r012]

I didn't have any equipment except greensteel and raid loot

oh no you only had raid loot and greensteel?!?!
how sad for you! how did you ever survive? :D

[TimethiefXVI]

u ask why? from my poitn of view (beeing from devourer, eu) the server pop wa way smaller. people knew each other and new players were taken by the hand shown some tricks, explaining some basic stuff, hell they even got some nice gear sometimes.

the new ones listened and learned and got good players.

i have noticed a different style on thelanis. good players are zerging ahead, not sticking in party and loling on newbs.
(or even worse rageing on them).
but we all have been newbs one day, some leaned it by themselfes, others learned from those. but it takes time, nerves and and the skillb to teach, smth a lot of people seem to lack.

u want good pugs: go teach em and laugh with em about thier mistakes, not on them. give usefull advices (death count IS a usefull advice, such as alt + F4 will restore full HP/SP)

[DelScorcho]

oh no you only had raid loot and greensteel?!?!
how sad for you! how did you ever survive? :D

Harder than it looks when my casters couldn't buy components and my melee couldn't buy pots, and I couldn't repair damaged equipment. Word of wise to people in the future. When you give it all away, store 50K plat if you ever return.

[Arlith]

I stopped playing DDO a while ago, then restarted last month, only to realize that I've got all of the world's difficulties to find decent grouping in lower levels (4-12, i start at level 4; started some new toons). It's weird, I didn't recall having that much trouble.

When you make a game so easy 'a caveman can do it" you attract, well, cavemen.

There are still excellent players out there. But, now it is pretty simple to solo, or shortman quests, so not as many pug out.

[SINIBYTE]

The general consensus that the playerbase is getting worse is leading to people treating just about everyone as if they're complete idiots. I'm rolling a new non-TR character, and I can't believe the amount of "instructional" abuse I've had to put up with the past couple weeks from people claiming to be vets. Apparently my character level being below theirs instantly dictates that my player skill is below theirs as well.

I've found myself saying "this ain't my first rodeo" quite often lately.

[Gremmlynn]

Having joined a lot of pugs these few days, the number 1 problem I see is the refusal to learnJust a question, but what are you trying to teach and how are you doing it?

Because, while I am far from being an expert, I find that my fellow incompetents generally pick up on those few general tips I give them. Things like trip and kill the casters first or turn off PA if you are having trouble hitting. If I stick to things that are general and immediately applicable I find people tend to learn. I also phrase things in a way that doesn't tend to make people feel they are being criticized like "Wow, I'm actually killing things faster without PA, I guess missing for big damage isn't very effective" or " those casters are really tearing us up, I'm gonna start concentrating on them" (even though I may already have been).

Though I will admit "maybe we should slow down a bit so the rogue can find the traps" doesn't seem to compute most of the time. So I just say "TRAP!" when I know there is one in front of us and only half seem to keep going.

[Pallol_One-Eye]

Just a question, but what are you trying to teach and how are you doing it?

Because, while I am far from being an expert, I find that my fellow incompetents generally pick up on those few general tips I give them. Things like trip and kill the casters first or turn off PA if you are having trouble hitting. If I stick to things that are general and immediately applicable I find people tend to learn. I also phrase things in a way that doesn't tend to make people feel they are being criticized like "Wow, I'm actually killing things faster without PA, I guess missing for big damage isn't very effective" or " those casters are really tearing us up, I'm gonna start concentrating on them" (even though I may already have been).

Though I will admit "maybe we should slow down a bit so the rogue can find the traps" doesn't seem to compute most of the time. So I just say "TRAP!" when I know there is one in front of us and only half seem to keep going.


This.

Another helpful hint I have been giving out is showing "newbs" where the potion and wand vendors are in the Marketplace. Seems most of them never knew it was there.

With just a "minute bit" of help, they instantly become that much more self-sufficient. If we can even make a small minority aware of self-sufficiency imagine how far that would go?

Again, I refuse to hold someone's hand through a quest, but I am more than willing to answer legitimate questions regarding skills/tactics/etc during a quest. I'm just not going to answer the occasional "Whats up ahead?" types.

I don't want to ruin the fun that I had when I first began.

If people want the uber easy button, I'm not the person thats giving that access. ;)

[Darkrok]

I just want to toss my vote in with what several others mentioned. The quality of players hasn't gone anywhere. The game is now easy enough that friends/guildies rarely bother to fill out the extra spots in groups. I ran STK elite last night and we just brought 3 of us along. We could have put up an LFM but just didn't bother. I think you're going to find that more and more...the good players group with people they know and don't bother to put up the LFM for more. It's not that they won't PuG - I PuG any time my guildies are busy - but a certain percentage of any experienced player's time is going to be spent in pre-planned groups with friends that never hit the LFM panel.

To the OP, since you've just come back it's likely that you don't see those groups as much and as such hit groups mostly with the inexperienced. There's nothing wrong with that, we all had to learn at some point, but it's probably coloring your thoughts on the quality of players.

[Doganpc]

Rise of the Guilds has meant death of the PUG. Why put up a LFM anymore when you can just hit up your guild chat. The larger the guilds get, the weaker the PUGs get. Eventually, the only people left to PUG will be those that can't play and have been expelled from whatever guild and those that just started so they lack the skills to survive.

Dogan
Its kind of sad, but i'm playing more LOTRO than I thought I would.

[Krag]

Here is your answer, OP.
The game has become more friendly to casual players. Players who do not want to read 999page manuals, players who can't sit 24/7 polishing their skills, players who are not grinding for years to aquire a single item.

I am sorry to hear that community expansion upsets you so much but you should give casual players their due. They allow Turbine to run this game and release new content every few months.

[-Nismu-]

What i have noticed is that there's always some more experienced player with twinked gear zerging the quest and new players don't get chance to learn to play as they barely can keep up with that zerging melee.

Also guild buffs really makes game way too easy and getting too good gear for level makes quests runovers.
And finally on lfg i see often parties made having quest level+2 on average level whendoing it on normal! and QL+3 on hard and so on. not much of challenge that way.

from 1->12 i haven't really ever had to use a single CC spell because melee has slaughtered mobs so fast it would be waste of sp. Didn't even bother haste them, had hard time to keep up with them even when they didnt have haste. Of course on soloing it is different thing.

Sure there are some noobs every now and then that dont even try learn, but most are just victims of too good gear and minmaxed partymates.

[Aranticus]

Its not even when I'm trying to teach too. Take gianthold, I can set up a cabal run and there are some players after 3 runs that still didn't know the way to the quest. Players that get ganged up by mobs and died continuously do the same. Worse are the ones who will retort that they are here to have "fun" and use that as an excuse. I'll not lump all new players into this category thou, I've also met some who took a lot of initiative, a few became my guildies


Just a question, but what are you trying to teach and how are you doing it?

Because, while I am far from being an expert, I find that my fellow incompetents generally pick up on those few general tips I give them. Things like trip and kill the casters first or turn off PA if you are having trouble hitting. If I stick to things that are general and immediately applicable I find people tend to learn. I also phrase things in a way that doesn't tend to make people feel they are being criticized like "Wow, I'm actually killing things faster without PA, I guess missing for big damage isn't very effective" or " those casters are really tearing us up, I'm gonna start concentrating on them" (even though I may already have been).

Though I will admit "maybe we should slow down a bit so the rogue can find the traps" doesn't seem to compute most of the time. So I just say "TRAP!" when I know there is one in front of us and only half seem to keep going.

[stille_nacht]

recently ive seen some people who are much too serious about the game.

My party had 2 wiz, 2 rogue, 1 wiz/ftr/rogue, 1 rgr, and 4 ftrs ,and apparently this was simply "too squishy" for a lv 17 FvS, who'd apparently run shroud "150 times", to EVER consider running the shroud with.... on normal.... Of course we picked up two healers and finished it rather easily, i mean it wasnt a 25min epic speed run, but we only had a total of 13 deaths, and neither of the rogues or wizards even died anyway. Hardly the "sp pot blowout" he said it would be. Neither of the healers ever had to pot.

The point of this story is that as well as the FtP thing at earlier levels attracting more noobs, more elite players are simply unwilling to ever consider anything that is not what they consider optimum, or tolerate any sort of mistakes, making the learning curve ever the higher for new people to ddo

some noobs, are, of course, just reaaly bad at the game, but most i have met have been willing to learn and listen

[FengXian]

Here is your answer, OP.
The game has become more friendly to casual players. Players who do not want to read 999page manuals, players who can't sit 24/7 polishing their skills, players who are not grinding for years to aquire a single item.

I am sorry to hear that community expansion upsets you so much but you should give casual players their due. They allow Turbine to run this game and release new content every few months.

So wrong...being a casual player doesn't mean having a worthless, gimped build, lv 1 equip and being unwilling to listed too.

I've seen many casual players (who play say 1 - 2 hours a day or less) that were still good.

I think the OP is referring to people that don't even bother reading a guide, following a build for their 1st toon or listening to instructions...and often they also want to run all quests on elite dying a zillion times...those aren't casual players, those are just morons, and their numbers obviously increase with comunity expansion. Just gotta be good at avoiding them.

[SiliconShadow]

The game has become so easy in many ways, that most people just 2,3 or 4 man something rather than pug. That means that a significant amount of good players you'll never run into unless its on the odd raid.

With the arrival of TR where nearly every single point of xp counts, people are very careful what they do and who they play with as a result pugs are an adventure.

Oh come on you can cap a 3+ tr and miss out tons of content if you level right now, there are that many quests to do your spoilt for choice.

[Aranticus]

Oh come on you can cap a 3+ tr and miss out tons of content if you level right now, there are that many quests to do your spoilt for choice.

If you are taking about the 1st TR, yes it's easier to cap but for 2nd onwards, you really have to rely on quite a number of slayers. When I was on my pally, I was virtually sacked on xp on vale, amrath, IQ and dreaming dark

[pumagirl418]

Before I get neg rep'd to death, I am not saying that we have to spend our nights teaching the masses all there is to know about DDO, but I remember a time when the player base was small enough that people did go out of their way to pass knowledge along and help out others for no other reason that because the player base was so small you were likely to run with them again, and often.

Bottom line is there are a lot of noobish players around, a lot more then there used to be. But I can't say it's a surprise, tons of new players will mean some of them are not, and may never be, any **** good. But there are reasons why the game is both harder and easier to learn and play. I don't think it's fair to compare today's new players to the new players of years past, and I certainly don't think it's fair to dump them all in the same catagory of "you suck" and more than it's fair to dump all vets in the "elitist prick" catagory.

Take the good with the bad, for every bad PuG I am in I usually have a good one to balance it out. For every freakishly nightmarish one, I have a good story.


The reverse of saying the vets need to take the time, from time to time, to share in the knowledge is not the complete story. There are many newer players who refuse to listen. As a vet, it is a waste of time to share knowledge with a newer player like this. And sadly there are more and more players who don't pay attention to what the party is doing.

So to say, a teacher can't teach if the student refuses to learn :(

[Tom318]

Having joined a lot of pugs these few days, the number 1 problem I see is the refusal to learn

learn from who?

[krud]

Every time I see a thread like this I shake my head. I joined a few months after release and seem to remember the same degree of new/noobish behavior back then that's going on now.

There is a more constant stream of new players than there ever was before. Think about what it was like a few months, and even up to a year after launch, with lots of people still on their first or second toon. That's what is going on right now. I remember lots and lots of noobish behavior back then, all the way thru the levels. The only difference is that there is no level 10,12 or 14 roadblock for people to stop at. No time for them to congregate with other vets who were stuck at cap too. They find themselves at level 20 now, with the same noob character and skills they had at 10 or 14.

Lots of vets like to view the past with rose colored goggles; people listened, worked together, people knew the game. They selectively remember the past as when all the noobs had already grown up, moved on, or learned the game. People knew what they were doing because anyone left in the game had already run the content a number of times and was on their 3rd or 4th alt. The chances of running into a new player were few and far between. We were left with only the more dedicated players. Lots of vets want it to remain like that, but unfortunately the game wasn't going to last very long like that.

[Krag]

What i have noticed is that there's always some more experienced player with twinked gear zerging the quest and new players don't get chance to learn to play as they barely can keep up with that zerging melee.

Also guild buffs really makes game way too easy and getting too good gear for level makes quests runovers.
And finally on lfg i see often parties made having quest level+2 on average level whendoing it on normal! and QL+3 on hard and so on. not much of challenge that way.

from 1->12 i haven't really ever had to use a single CC spell because melee has slaughtered mobs so fast it would be waste of sp. Didn't even bother haste them, had hard time to keep up with them even when they didnt have haste. Of course on soloing it is different thing.

Sure there are some noobs every now and then that dont even try learn, but most are just victims of too good gear and minmaxed partymates.

1. Don't join groups when you see keywords "fast", "zerg", "x7n/h/e", "byoh", etc. Or better start your own "slow", "no rushers", "no idiots" group. Problem solved.
2. Guild buffs were introduced at the same time as a major melee nerf. If you want to blame something for making low levels easy, blame TR and Icy Burst.
3. Woe at you for not casting haste. It is true that CC is a waste of mana but only because nuking is so good at lower levels.
4. Too bad. they missed the opportunity to learn from experienced players.

[Triepod]

Quite simple really...

FTP = More new players = More casual players = Less 1337 players.

I don't see what all the kerfuffle about PUG's is...I pug pretty much exclusively and it usually works out fine. Obviously there are occasions where it just doesn't work out, but it would be boring if there was no risk of failure.

+1 for kerfuffle.. loled at that.. thanks...;p just might have to use it for a sig...

[BossOfEarth]

at lvl 18-20 I haven't found that many times you pug with people with zero idea ... the odd one but not often .......

however last night while doing multiple weapons shipment runs, come and go etc, we had at least 6 people join and have no idea where the quest was.

"what house?"
"where's the 12"
"its in the marketplace right?"

Each person got one set of help and not one of them made it to the quest.

Never struck so many in such a short period of time. Weapon's Shipment is bugged.

The LFM is designed to interpose a "BUY NOW" button between the f2p player and the p2p quests. But due to a LFM bug, Weapons Shipment advertises itself as free to play.

The bug was introduced in update 5. I've strongly considered buying the pack, just so the LFM stops taunting me with false claims of f2p-ness.

But Turbine cuts both ways. See for example, vets in the Halls of Shan To Kor who swear up and down that there's a pool of water at the bottom of the shaft near the Guardian.

Vet: We'll buff at the pool of water!
Me: I've never seen the pool of water. That was before my time.
Vet: There's always been a pool of water! We'll buff there!
Me: They changed that in update....
Vet: Silence noobling! We shall buff in the pool of... floor?

[dogonovo]

*snips*

+1

I was typing a response in word pad and I am glad I checked the thread before posting. I was going to give impressions about what the game was based on assumption, but Krud was obviously there and put into words what I would have only attempted.


I am only going to personaly add, if I may: Cut the new players who frequent the forums some slack. I mean, I read all of the wiki before creating my character (yes, I came from PnP and NWN and ignored my knowledge of those games), my Bard (1st char) has a 16 CON and the first item I actually looked for was Fortification, etc, etc, etc. I did and still try to do my homework, and I am darn sure many others too. No, it is not nice to come to the boards for the latest hint on questing and find yet another thread on how we, new players, suck. Someone said something like "if it is fair to say all newbies are awful it is fair to say all vets are elitist pwicks" (this is a class in Erfworld, I think...). I myself love to read and can spend hours selecting advice and posts here, but that is me. For the less patient it takes a hit on the New Posts and they will be presented with 10 ways in which they suck just for being new.

So, and more on topic, I think the quality of people has decreased in recent years alarmingly, and more people in the game means more of that in pixel land. It takes one reply to tell if the person posting is looking for advice or only approval on their own set ideas. If it happens to be the latter just ignore them. If someone with 2 weeks into the game wants to lecture you on how to run your raids, ignore them, it is that simple. If you feed the argument there is no one to blame but yourself.

And please, mighty please, the game will be much more solid if players expect a nightmare when they enter a quest, you veterans and your "nah, that quest is easy, ran it on elite while juggling my 3 persian cats with my feet and feeding my dog with the right hand..." is giving some new players the idea that it is that easy indeed FOR THEM TOO!!! (btw the part about the persian cats is a joke, I fully understand that it is easy for most of you, but if a new player is worried before entering a quest they are more prone to even bring a resist potion or two and even *gasp* remove curse or disease!)

[Aranticus]

learn from who?

From anyone, not necessarily me if you are trying to imply that I'm forcing my views onto them. I've seen leaders tell members not to jump in and out of lava so that they take less damage and hardly 2 seconds later, someone dies. The same person then die again on the next run, same place. Same thing happens at the end fight in tempest where a more experienced player informs the party that taking ff off can help with being blown away. People then argue that the ff helps prevent falling damage then proceeded to get tossed away

You might also want to look at the marketplace advice channel. Lots of bad info from many people, some of whom had been called out several times for misleading others

[Zion_Halcyon]

I stopped playing DDO a while ago, then restarted last month, only to realize that I've got all of the world's difficulties to find decent grouping in lower levels (4-12, i start at level 4; started some new toons). It's weird, I didn't recall having that much trouble.

I see more and more people totally unable to do what they're ''made'' for. Barbarians that can't kill s**t (didn't even think that was possible) and have less HP then my Favored Soul of lower level, EVEN WHEN RAGED. Rogues that blow traps like there's no tomorrow... A LEVEL 7 ROGUE SHOULD NOT BLOW A TRAP ON GWYLAN HARD! My rogue level 7 is not even a mechanic(assasin) and succeed on a 1 ON ELITE, not even failed. Let's not talk about casters... most of them use up all of their SP without me noticing anything... if you're not doing damage significantly, at least, keep the party hasted, it will help more than a non-meta, non-potency, non-enhanced firewall on non-undead. And, well, just people that dont really understand how the games works. Seriously, a level 10 two-handed(or 2-weapon) fighter should probably not care about his ac. If you have 28 instead of 22, you probably wont notice it. Get something with dr and your hp high. Tempest spine is easy as hell... why in the nine hells do people fall like leaves even on normal? Or need 3 healers? There's a shrine at every corner in there! I don't get it, really.
And rangers... there are exeptions, but most of them do dubiously low DPS, have no HP, no AC, and well, nothing going for them.

I have asked myself why is there that many dubious build that make there way to these level, before, most bad char dropped after level 6, so the ones left were mostly decent. I've got a theory... guilds buffs... on lower levels, they make a big deal of difference, allowing poorly made toons to squeal there way up levels. I dont love guild buff for another reason, there is always someone who takes forever when everyone is ready to get buffed. I love when i can play, not when i run around a ship clicking on anything, or waiting for someone else who does it.

Anyway, I just tought that if I played with my higher-level toons, well, I would be less annoyed by that. I enter with my level 19 fighter to run shroud (pretty easy allows to get back in the toon)... OMG, this was bad, really bad, we pulled it out, i dont know how. Looks like no one was listening to the party leader, who, DESPERATLY, tried to speak/tip to guide people. It took about half an hour to do second part, i was seriously about to quit, people were running around, keeping generals together and just pretty much kill them whenever they felt like... And then part 4 arrives, and that was equally(even more) horrible. First, one of our healer got killed first round, which didn't impress me at all. After 2 round, we were 4 left up. I must command the healer who took SP pots... I wouldn't have done so with a party like that. And then well, since it went all that horrible and only 2 were going to completion, i just quit along with the barb that was beside me vs Harry.

I just wanted to had, yeah, I'm not pleased with the ''new'' DDO. I dont mind playing with weaker toons (not imcompetents), as long they can listen and dont play Leeroy-ish.


I've actually noticed something - the quality seems to suffer most right before a pack is released.

Therefore, I have a theory - I believe that the reality is, the quality overall really isn't suffering; what's happening is a significant segment of people who know what they are doing tend to burn through new content, might even TR a toon or two to take advantage, and then as they complete what they wanted to do, they begin to fall away and go do other stuff while waiting for the next new content to come out.

As such, it leaves a talent void, whereas before you might be able to carry a single player holding you back, now its 3-4 new or clueless players all in one group.

Usually the waves I have observed seem to go like this:

New Content Released->Everyone only plays New Content ->Vets begin to play some older content (Peak Player Quality) -> Slow hemmorage of Vet Players as they accomplish what they desired to-> Player Quality drought while waiting for new content - > Back to New Content Released.

Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

The duration of how long the Peak and Valleys of the player quality seems to be directly related to the quality and quantity in terms of length and depth of the new player content.

This just happens to be my observation, since it seems it is always right before these Updates that we get the most criticism of lack of player quality...

[BossOfEarth]

You might also want to look at the marketplace advice channel. Lots of bad info from many people, some of whom had been called out several times for misleading others Intentionaly giving out bad advice? That does sound funny.

[Lorz]

It is that there is no more penalty for death and stupidity. Back when we all started and the game was new....the penalty for being stupid and death was loss of xp....sometimes massive loss of xp. The new players don't have this.....they don't seem to get it. That we have done all this with less than they have, without a store, without all the easy buttons and we thrived....because the game had real penalties for failure. Now ...well....how will they improve if there are no hard lessons. Not all newer players are like this.....some seem to get it...a lot don't and won't because the game mechanics that forced us old timers to learn and improve are gone. This is born out with every lvl 18-20 only shroud run on normal. It was not an overnight decline...but that is what it appears to be the genisis of the decline to me.

/now get off my lawn you punk kids......shakes his cane angrily at the kids!

[krud]

It is that there is no more penalty for death and stupidity. Back when we all started and the game was new....the penalty for being stupid and death was loss of xp....sometimes massive loss of xp.....
Yet somehow those noobs also managed to get to cap back then, and still retain all their noobishness. As much as vets would like to believe, the xp debt didn't make them better players. They probably just left the game so you never saw them anymore. Now they have been replaced with a whole new batch of noobs. That is all.

[Frodo_Lives]

The reverse of saying the vets need to take the time, from time to time, to share in the knowledge is not the complete story. There are many newer players who refuse to listen. As a vet, it is a waste of time to share knowledge with a newer player like this. And sadly there are more and more players who don't pay attention to what the party is doing.

So to say, a teacher can't teach if the student refuses to learn :(

I agree 100%, those are some of the people who unfortunately will never be any good. Doesn't matter if they have played a week, a month, or a year.

The low quality of players is due to the fact that so many of them are new and bad advice and misinformation is thrown around rather carelessly.

It is very easy to get mislead into thinking such things as blind invites are good, Con is a dump stat, you don't need pots you just need a cleric sort of thing. These are all things I have heard in groups and on the forums. Information like this wouldn't have lasted a second a few years ago without being completely squashed.

It used to be that you would join a guild and the vets in the guild would help out as well. But with guild renown there are so many guilds that are just about the numbers that even that institution of learning has dried up for a lot of people.

Absolutely people have to want to learn to get better. Unfortunately it's getting harder to find good information, and way to easy to find misinformation.

[Entelech]

Oh come on you can cap a 3+ tr and miss out tons of content if you level right now, there are that many quests to do your spoilt for choice.

The 15-20 range is still tight on options. Which is why I am glad they've committed to higher-level content with the next several expansions.

[taurean430]

I stopped playing DDO a while ago, then restarted last month, only to realize that I've got all of the world's difficulties to find decent grouping in lower levels (4-12, i start at level 4; started some new toons). It's weird, I didn't recall having that much trouble.

I see more and more people totally unable to do what they're ''made'' for. Barbarians that can't kill s**t (didn't even think that was possible) and have less HP then my Favored Soul of lower level, EVEN WHEN RAGED. Rogues that blow traps like there's no tomorrow... A LEVEL 7 ROGUE SHOULD NOT BLOW A TRAP ON GWYLAN HARD! My rogue level 7 is not even a mechanic(assasin) and succeed on a 1 ON ELITE, not even failed. Let's not talk about casters... most of them use up all of their SP without me noticing anything... if you're not doing damage significantly, at least, keep the party hasted, it will help more than a non-meta, non-potency, non-enhanced firewall on non-undead. And, well, just people that dont really understand how the games works. Seriously, a level 10 two-handed(or 2-weapon) fighter should probably not care about his ac. If you have 28 instead of 22, you probably wont notice it. Get something with dr and your hp high. Tempest spine is easy as hell... why in the nine hells do people fall like leaves even on normal? Or need 3 healers? There's a shrine at every corner in there! I don't get it, really.
And rangers... there are exeptions, but most of them do dubiously low DPS, have no HP, no AC, and well, nothing going for them.

I have asked myself why is there that many dubious build that make there way to these level, before, most bad char dropped after level 6, so the ones left were mostly decent. I've got a theory... guilds buffs... on lower levels, they make a big deal of difference, allowing poorly made toons to squeal there way up levels. I dont love guild buff for another reason, there is always someone who takes forever when everyone is ready to get buffed. I love when i can play, not when i run around a ship clicking on anything, or waiting for someone else who does it.

Anyway, I just tought that if I played with my higher-level toons, well, I would be less annoyed by that. I enter with my level 19 fighter to run shroud (pretty easy allows to get back in the toon)... OMG, this was bad, really bad, we pulled it out, i dont know how. Looks like no one was listening to the party leader, who, DESPERATLY, tried to speak/tip to guide people. It took about half an hour to do second part, i was seriously about to quit, people were running around, keeping generals together and just pretty much kill them whenever they felt like... And then part 4 arrives, and that was equally(even more) horrible. First, one of our healer got killed first round, which didn't impress me at all. After 2 round, we were 4 left up. I must command the healer who took SP pots... I wouldn't have done so with a party like that. And then well, since it went all that horrible and only 2 were going to completion, i just quit along with the barb that was beside me vs Harry.

I just wanted to had, yeah, I'm not pleased with the ''new'' DDO. I dont mind playing with weaker toons (not imcompetents), as long they can listen and dont play Leeroy-ish.

I think the problem is twofold regarding how the reroll threshold increased all the way into Gianthold.

1. Ship buffs, which you mentioned.
2. Frustrated experienced players. In particular TR's

I've been guilty myself of seeing gross incompetence and lack of party cohesion and just saying screw this and finishing the quest myself. Even though I've moved on to the next thing, (many times to encounter much of the same), those players still received xp they didn't work for. Trying to explain what I know of game mechanics/quest preparedness means nothing to them, they got xp and are leveling still. When I first started playing this game (month or two before forum join date), if you failed it was just that. In my worst experiences as a new player, I've had more experienced players make comment and recall out to find a better group. When I am TR'ing a toon, I'm too lazy to do it most of the time, I just want away from noob central. My xp pot is burning...

People seem to be just catching on to the fact that players are reaching level cap with no idea how to run their own toons. Heck, when I finally decided to make alts I found it to be incredibly fast (lvl 20 in 6 days), to just hit lfm's that were obviously being run by TR's or Vets with alts. The difference is that I contributed. I came to these forums after discovering that my original build idea was ****. I read and learned and continued playing. It's not happening by and large with new players, so the problem grows...