Jade Prison problem at low levels

[Xeraphim]

So I was a Monk 6 in Delera's using the Shintao I ability... good thing I was using Holy handwraps.

http://i55.tinypic.com/2eo8g7c.jpg


The damage dealt by my fists was reduced to 0! That's not good. Once the skeleton died from the Holy damage, my fists managed to get through the Tomb of Jade and deal some actual damage, but for a half second there I was surprised!

Also, Storm was stuck in the end of Depths of Doom and could not be dismissed, and the party member that summoned him left group, so Storm just stayed there in Depths of Doom... making barrel monkeys or something out of the wood splinters we left behind in the dungeon. Who knows? I remember the fire the ogres made to be captivating, but not seriously that interesting... perhaps Storm kept failing Intelligence saves and just kept staring at the fire...

[J1NG]

I believe it was said somewhere that those "Entombed in Jade" are like those "Flesh to Stoned", meaning they obatin Aadamantine DR/15. Being such a low level, it means you'll need to find a metalline or adamantine weapon to bypass the DR of the "Entombed" form.

J1NG

[Xeraphim]

I believe it was said somewhere that those "Entombed in Jade" are like those "Flesh to Stoned", meaning they obatin Aadamantine DR/15. Being such a low level, it means you'll need to find a metalline or adamantine weapon to bypass the DR of the "Entombed" form.

J1NG

I can already hear the anguished cries of newbie shintaos in General Chat "OMG WHY CAN'T I KILL THIS THING!! This ability suxs."

A slight tweak may be in order.

[rimble]

I can already hear the anguished cries of newbie shintaos in General Chat "OMG WHY CAN'T I KILL THIS THING!! This ability suxs."

A slight tweak may be in order.

Yeah, it's pretty weird...but hey, it resolves itself at Level 16...yay? I guess it only really particularly sucks on Undead since the auto-crit doesn't matter. On living things the auto-crit should allow you to plow through the DR.

[Xeraphim]

Yeah, it's pretty weird...but hey, it resolves itself at Level 16...yay? I guess it only really particularly sucks on Undead since the auto-crit doesn't matter. On living things that'd allow you to plow through the DR.

If all PrEs had problems like these, we'd see a lot more angsty threads on the forums.

Undead may be the area that needs worked on. I think even Zombies should lose DR in a Tomb of Jade... but that if auto-crit is definite on something then it's not that huge a deal. Remember, Half-Orc Monk 6 with 28 STR and +1 (Holy) handwraps doing 0(base) damage is a bad thing.

[rimble]

Undead may be the area that needs worked on. I think even Zombies should lose DR in a Tomb of Jade... but that if auto-crit is definite on something then it's not that huge a deal. Remember, Half-Orc Monk 6 with 28 STR and +1 (Holy) handwraps doing 0(base) damage is a bad thing.

Oh I agree, it's messed up.

I don't even know how you managed to do 0 damage in the first place...

1 Min Damage on 1d8
1 +1 Handwraps
9 Strength
---
11

?

[bradleyforrest]

Oh I agree, it's messed up.

I don't even know how you managed to do 0 damage in the first place...

1 Min Damage on 1d8
1 +1 Handwraps
9 Strength
---
11

?
Did you miss the part about the DR 15/Adamantine that was mentioned above?

[rimble]

Did you miss the part about the DR 15/Adamantine that was mentioned above?

No, but turned it into DR 10/Adamantine in my head (Stoneskin on the mind I guess).

Carry on.

[Drfirewater79]

I believe it was said somewhere that those "Entombed in Jade" are like those "Flesh to Stoned", meaning they obatin Aadamantine DR/15. Being such a low level, it means you'll need to find a metalline or adamantine weapon to bypass the DR of the "Entombed" form.

J1NG

yeah what he said ... also keep in mind as you progress ... you will get adamantine fist ... also ... shintao is support class ... dont expect to do massive damage ... cause its not in the class design. Shintao is all about crowd control and short insignificant buffs in its current phase.

[Drfirewater79]

If all PrEs had problems like these, we'd see a lot more angsty threads on the forums.

Undead may be the area that needs worked on. I think even Zombies should lose DR in a Tomb of Jade... but that if auto-crit is definite on something then it's not that huge a deal. Remember, Half-Orc Monk 6 with 28 STR and +1 (Holy) handwraps doing 0(base) damage is a bad thing.

also auto crit means the procking for burst effects goes off every time ...even against undead ... at shintao I you should have some flame burst or holy burst wraps .. if not .. you need to get some :)

[Xeraphim]

also auto crit means the procking for burst effects goes off every time ...even against undead ... at shintao I you should have some flame burst or holy burst wraps .. if not .. you need to get some :)

OK.... folks seem to be missing the point:

NEWBIE Shintao.

New player. First character. +3 Handwraps because they are uber. Possible problem there.

Where does most of the revenue come from? New players.

Autocrit on an AC build? Not going to get past DR15/Addy at level 6-8. Possible reduction to DR10/Addy and on Undead either behaves like critting a 0% fort monster that is Held, or drops the damage reduction entirely. Undead seem to be the only real issue. In a group with a barbarian or something the whole "Tomb of Jade on a Mindflayer/Rust Monster" thing is no big deal. Once again, to be absolutely redundant(excessively so), Undead seem to be the only issue.

[richieelias27]

Hm... uh.... Deal with it?

DR and undead immunities are part of the game. Enough has already been done to dumb it down for the newbies. We dont need more.

Also, I can run up a brand new character, starting from level 1 (bypassing vet status), and with zero help (gear, cash, or otherwise) from Mrs moneybags (my main farming toon), and have more than enough cash to buy myself a very nice bursting type weapon by level 6. This is done all by myself, simply just questing and selling stuff.

So, at level 6 "I'm too new to have access to a DR breaker" is not a valid argument.

[khaldan]

Hm... uh.... Deal with it?

DR and undead immunities are part of the game. Enough has already been done to dumb it down for the newbies. We dont need more.

Also, I can run up a brand new character, starting from level 1 (bypassing vet status), and with zero help from Mrs moneybags (my main farming toon), I have more than enough cash to buy myself a very nice bursting type weapon by level 6. This is done all by myself, simply just questing and selling stuff.

So an immunity that's unbypassable until 16 unless you happen to have a set of +1 metalline wraps is something you should be able to deal with easily?

C'mon, no one seriously expects anyone else to break DR before level 15 or so.

[LunaCee]

So an immunity that's unbypassable until 16 unless you happen to have a set of +1 metalline wraps is something you should be able to deal with easily?

C'mon, no one seriously expects anyone else to break DR before level 15 or so.

Maybe for monks who have issues with material DR's because of a lack of weapon mods on wraps in general, but certainly melee in general are greatly depended upon to break DR before 15 on some mobs in certain content. The Marut at the end of VoN 3 immediately comes to mind. I've gotten the aggro from that thing on a FvS at level with a piddly 12 base STR simply because I had a GCB mace and nobody else had anything effective. No anarchic, no lesser construct bane... nothing.

Also silver for vampires, but in that case most people just ask for a 7-8th level or higher arcane with firewall on hand.

Or should we mention Delera's where the level 5 crowd rushing through it to get the VoM ASAP expects melee to have on hand some form of pure good/holy/flametouched to bypass ghostly DR? Because not all runs actually have an high enough level arcane in the party (Though in that case, hello Halt Undead!). Heck you are EXPECTED to have a DR breaker there simply because even if you have nothing the game hands you "the club" right before the second quest in the chain!

I could go on... but in general the crowd does expect melee to have DR breakers for certain things.

[waterboytkd]

I would say the biggest problem is at level 6 (and level 12, i guess), you don't get to control when a bad guy gets Tomb of Jaded. Vorpal strike? Tomb of Jade! Oops. Still, a monk always has ways of getting past the DR, especially against Undead. Hello Fists of Light. Hello other elemental fists.

Still, I could see it being more annoying than cool at these low levels, which seems like bad design to me.

[Glenalth]

So an immunity that's unbypassable until 16 unless you happen to have a set of +1 metalline wraps is something you should be able to deal with easily?

C'mon, no one seriously expects anyone else to break DR before level 15 or so.

There are plenty of adamantine and metalline weapons that you can swap to for finishing off an encased mob. You've still removed it from combat, so it's not a huge issue unless it's a quest requirement to kill it.

[Ovrad]

I say count yourself lucky they didnt make undead immune to it...

You do know it ONLY works on undeads, outsiders and aberrations right?

[Angelus_dead]

Sure, the answer is dont use the Jade prison finisher on something when you cant bypass the DR....
A level 6 person can't have Jade Prison. He didn't explicitly try to Jade anything; it happened automatically as a "lucky" bonus.

[richieelias27]

# Shintao Monk: Smite Tainted Creature

* Cost: 15 Ki
* Benefit: You have the ability to expend ki to deal devastating blows in melee against tainted creatures. You gain twice your Wisdom modifier to your attack roll and a damage bonus based on your monk level. A tainted target will be locked in a tomb of jade on vorpal attacks (attack roll of 20 followed by critical confirmation) on a failed Will save (DC = 10 + Wisdom Modifier + your monk level). Extraplanar Aberrations, or Undead must succeed at two consecutive Will saves to avoid their fate. This ability counts as a Light move. (Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds.)


He absolutely did have a choice in it. If you did not leave home prepared with a set of adamantine weapons, then dont cripple yourself by using the smite. If you did have the misfortune of never finding one single adamantine monk weapon by level 6, and you still find you must use the smite... well thats the consequence.

Or, alternatively, now that you know exactly what jade prison does, you could go out and... you know... look for an adamantine weapon.

The real issue here is that turbine dropped the ball by not explicitly stating exactly what encasing something in jade entails. This is a lot like the old argument over the boss of STK. Turbine screwed up by never giving the player any sort of notice (before first running the quest) that the boss would require adamantine weapons to bypass its DR (or a very high base damage that would be outside the range of a normal new level 2-4 player). Their solution? Nerf the boss to the point where anyone could kill it with a wet noodle. Its this sort of dumbing down that I'm against.

And yes, I'm aware that it only works on extraplanar aberrations and undead. That was a snarky comment on Turbines penchant for overly gimping abilities straight out of the gate.

[KristovK]

At lvl 6 it ONLY happens on a confirmed crit on a natural 20 against a select set of mob types, so it's not exactly something the monk is going to be tossing around constantly. And it's also pretty easy to get some Addy weapons by lvl 6..I mean..come on, you get them as loot drops in lvl 2 dungeons, so they ain't exactly 'uber rare' or anything.

And what game are YOU playing where you don't need DR breakers before 15? What, do you not leave the Harbor before then or something? Seriously..you encounter mobs with DR starting in the Marketplace, level 2-5 quests. Got a Vamp in a lvl 5 Necro quest, various Construct types in quests of that level, not to mention Demons in various quests starting at lvl 6(Threnal Ruins/Sorrowdusk Island). I mean, the new level 6 RAID is full of Devils who require DR breakers, which are sold in the raid itself no less, so players, even the newbies, noobs and nubs will learn about DR and what it means and how to get around/through it.

[Angelus_dead]

He absolutely did have a choice in it. If you did not leave home prepared with a set of adamantine weapons, then dont cripple yourself by using the smite.
Quoted for emphasis.

[sirdanile]

Quoted for emphasis.

Might I point out there are 0 adamantine threaded handwraps and that metalline makes handwraps min level 10 at least?

Why lower your dps by using kamas or a quarter staff when the issue here is lower dps when using an ability that should raise it?

Personally I think that the dr should be 5/adamantine for the smite and higher on the garunteed tomb of jade.

Or make an exception and remove the dr on something immune to critical hits?

[Angelus_dead]

Might I point out there are 0 adamantine threaded handwraps and that metalline makes handwraps min level 10 at least?
Applying "emphasis" to something doesn't mean you're agreeing with it. It could mean the opposite, such as those TV commercials where politicians put up old videos of their opponents.

[Diyon]

I still think you (and the party if applicable) are better off even with the DR because it removes it from combat essentially. Its not hitting you anymore, that's still a big plus, if you don't won't to deal with the DR hit the other stuff that's still hitting you. If its the only thing left, faster or slower dps during the time it is entombed is not ever going to be success or fail because it can't do anything to you during that time.

[Modinator0]

I always did find it kind of odd that ki strike: adamantine comes so late in the progression... most of the places where it would be useful are before you get it XD

[Shyver]

I always did find it kind of odd that ki strike: adamantine comes so late in the progression... most of the places where it would be useful are before you get it XD

It's a holdover from Pen and Paper.

[Odin's_Hugin]

I'd really like if Tomb of Jade, as a special monk effect, gave no DR/Adamantine for the mobs. Or gave very little, like 5/Adamentine instead of actual 15 of the Stone.

After all, Jade is a specific kind of stone. It may be more breakable than others. =P

[richieelias27]

Personally I dont know why they included a vaguely worded Jade prison on vorpal with the smite in the first place. If it were up to me the two abilities would be completely separate. One special attack for smiting, and one that is only Jade Prison.

I just dont see any logical reason to change what is essentially a Flesh to stone effect and turn it into a long duration paralysis effect (By removing the DR). That, in my opinion, would be overpowered and is basically what I'm disagreeing with.

Also, what is up with the descriptions:
Shintao Monk: Smite Tainted Creature
Cost: 15 Ki
... Extraplanar Aberrations, or Undead must succeed at two consecutive Will saves to avoid their fate. ...

Shintao Monk: Jade Strike
Cost: 10 Ki
... This ability only functions on aberrations, extraplanar creatures that are not classified as 'Lawful Outsiders', and undead, and counts as a Light move. Creatures that are both extraplanar and either aberrations or undead receive double this effect. ...

Shintao Monk: Tomb of Jade
Cost: 25 Ki
... Extraplanar Aberrations, or Undead must succeed at two consecutive Will saves to avoid their fate. ...

Could they possibly make it more vague and confusing? Is it intended to affect only things which are BOTH extraplanar and Aberrations, or Undead? Or is it supposed to function as the second description - Functions on any aberrations, any non lawful extraplanar outsiders, and all Undead?

Whoever does the writing for the abilities needs to be a little more clear...


I'd really like if Tomb of Jade, as a special monk effect, gave no DR/Adamantine for the mobs. Or gave very little, like 5/Adamentine instead of actual 15 of the Stone.

After all, Jade is a specific kind of stone. It may be more breakable than others. =P

Jade has a hardness of 6.5, about the same as Pyrite and slightly less than Quartz (7). Granite has a hardness of 6 to 8ish and Marble has a hardness of 6. So on average, one could say that Jade is just as hard as your average "Stone".

[Kinerd]

It should be in the in-game description that the tomb of jade on vorpal attacks grants DR X/adamantine to the entombed, or at the very least say "In the tomb of jade, creatures are much more difficult to damage."

I also agree that the wording should be cleaned up. Hunter of the Dead is another oddly worded one, as long as we're editing. :)

[sirdanile]

Applying "emphasis" to something doesn't mean you're agreeing with it. It could mean the opposite, such as those TV commercials where politicians put up old videos of their opponents.

Correct, I don't agree with the min level of metalline wraps nor with the fact that there are 0 adamantine threaded named wraps. The loot gen wraps can't have any version of threaded as far as I know.

Imo, dr 5/adamantine for the smite, dr 10/adamantine for the jade strike, and dr 15/adamantine for the tomb of jade, essentially giving dr based on how difficult it is to use and the levels acquired.

[t0r012]

Its not such a big deal. The monster is removed from combat and no longer a threat.

In fact I can see instances when this would be a good thing. swap to a set of no elemental process wraps when it is the last mob around and drop a FoL on it in the tomb. beat away to build up HP.

you could probably heal a whole party that way so long as you have enough ki to drop a couple FoLs (no ki generation when you don't break DR).

[Cyr]

Yes it is an issue when a speciality attack that is supposed to help you against a limited number of opponents can actually turn into a penalty. Even when you are over level 16 this could be a penalty as not all monks are pure and the monk is not always the only person hitting the mob.

Remove the dr 15/adamantine completely from entombed targets and the problem dispears. As it seems to mostly just appear to be there as flavor in the first place I'm not seeing an issue with this type of change.

[richieelias27]

I'd like to know how a lengthy will save paralysis could be considered a "flavor" ability...

As I said before, I dont think it should be part of the smite at all. Removing the DR however would be a bit much. Granted it is an easily overcome DR, but it is at least some sort of limitation in the usefullness of the paralysis. Otherwise, they'd better remove the DR from flesh to stone as well.

[rimble]

I'd like to know how a lengthy will save paralysis could be considered a "flavor" ability...

As I said before, I dont think it should be part of the smite at all. Removing the DR however would be a bit much. Granted it is an easily overcome DR, but it is at least some sort of limitation in the usefullness of the paralysis.

Well, it's a little weird I guess because that low level one only works on a natural 20 (and failing one of two Will saves in the case of the Undead causing problems here). So you have to do the strike, roll a 20, then confirm it as a crit, then get past the save (not all that hard really)...then you get the tomb.

I guess it kinda sucks to go "Booya! It worked that time, hasn't worked in DAYS!" then get bummed out and stand around doing 0 damage...it'd probably be nice if the 'big bang' of the power didn't come tainted with negativity.

It should be "SWEET! It worked!" and not "Aww dammit, rolled a 20...*wait*".

It's weird to hope you DON'T roll a 20, hehe...

[Modinator0]

It's a holdover from Pen and Paper.

yeah figured as much, odd since not much else has stayed in tact outside of the basic system and setting...

[SneakThief]

You cant find adamantine kamas anywhere? How about a quarterstaff?
Of course they can ... they can buy them in store (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Release_Notes_Update_6_Store_Releases#.2B1_Adamant ine_Weapons_-_Released_9-3-2010) ... No ML even ...


Why lower your dps by using kamas or a quarter staff when the issue here is lower dps when using an ability that should raise it?
Arguably the Prison is not supposed to raise your DPS as much as is it supposed to lower the threat. Does it really matter if you have to break out a quarterstaff to kill something a little slower when it cant fight back?

[Odin's_Hugin]

Jade has a hardness of 6.5, about the same as Pyrite and slightly less than Quartz (7). Granite has a hardness of 6 to 8ish and Marble has a hardness of 6. So on average, one could say that Jade is just as hard as your average "Stone".

Well, but who knows, maybe Flesh to Stone turns them into Coryndons (H - 10) ;D

Btw, studying geology here. But I didnt remember the hardness of Jade at that moment =P

[waterboytkd]

I don't get it. Why are people arguing that what happened to the OP is okay? Yes, it's not that hard to get adamantine somethings, but that's not the issue.

The issue is that he used a special ability meant to make him better at killing a certain subset of monsters (which includes undead), an ability that cost him quite a bit in feats and AP, and when he used it, rather than make him better at beating that monster, it made it harder to deal with that monster. This is not good.

The Tomb of Jade on vorpals is supposed to be a big bonus. It should NEVER be a drawback. EVER. That's just poor design.

[sirdanile]

Arguably the Prison is not supposed to raise your DPS as much as is it supposed to lower the threat. Does it really matter if you have to break out a quarterstaff to kill something a little slower when it cant fight back?

If it's not supposed to raise your dps why give automatic criticals? It does matter when your handwraps deal 2d6 opposed to 1d8, especially considering that the selection of adamantine quarterstaffs is relatively low compared to handwraps with an effect on them, besides you have to waste time swapping weapons to actually kill it.

It is bad design to make an effect thats supposed to be "SWEET!" into something like "ARGH I can't belive that happened! :("

[Modinator0]

Of course they can ... they can buy them in store (http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Release_Notes_Update_6_Store_Releases#.2B1_Adamant ine_Weapons_-_Released_9-3-2010) ... No ML even ...


Arguably the Prison is not supposed to raise your DPS as much as is it supposed to lower the threat. Does it really matter if you have to break out a quarterstaff to kill something a little slower when it cant fight back?

I could maybe agree with you for the jade prison ability, but for the other two abilities that include a chance for a jade prison effect, you're way off base.

[SneakThief]

If it's not supposed to raise your dps why give automatic criticals? It does matter when your handwraps deal 2d6 opposed to 1d8, especially considering that the selection of adamantine quarterstaffs is relatively low compared to handwraps with an effect on them, besides you have to waste time swapping weapons to actually kill it.

It is bad design to make an effect thats supposed to be "SWEET!" into something like "ARGH I can't belive that happened! :("
I thought the issue people were complaining about was they couldnt get through the DR at a low level. 2d6 doesn't come it till ... level 12?


I could maybe agree with you for the jade prison ability, but for the other two abilities that include a chance for a jade prison effect, you're way off base.
To me its just a matter of perspective. By the time one can use the actual Jade Prison one is way past worrying about getting through the DR.

Again ... I thought the issue was a low level ... at level 6 just change the perspective and consider that the monster was taken out of combat and one can focus on a new monster ... no weapon change necessary. Then go back and mop up the imprisoned ones. If there is only one monster to focus then why worry about the time to swap weapons. At that point one could sit back and eat lunch. I personally love the idea, at level 6. Its better than paralyzing which is min level 10.

Is it a bit strange ... sure, no arguments ... but would it be better or worse if they just removed the prison on crit part? If it would be better then they should just remove it ... If it would be worse if they removed it, then its a bonus ... just my opinion.

[sirdanile]

I thought the issue people were complaining about was they couldnt get through the DR at a low level. 2d6 doesn't come it till ... level 12?



*Sigh*

1d8 at 6 when you can first encounter the problem, 1d10 at 8 when unarmed deals more base than a quarterstaff (Ignoring the fact that unarmed attacks faster and more often than a quarterstaff due to the two weapon fighting feats) 2d6 at 12 when you get shintao 2 and the on critical prison rather than on vorpal, monks don't inherently bypass adamantine until 16th level and the dr 15/adamantine problem still applys all the way up to 15th.

I would rather use my +1 Holy bleeding handwraps (Or plain +4 or 5...) than a silly +1 adamantine store bought quarterstaff just because I decided to go and actually use an ability thats supposed to help me.

Furthermore if you're in a group the other melees would be punished because of an ability you used.

[waterboytkd]

Is it a bit strange ... sure, no arguments ... but would it be better or worse if they just removed the prison on crit part? If it would be better then they should just remove it ... If it would be worse if they removed it, then its a bonus ... just my opinion.

I actually feel like the former is the better option. But then, that's part of a larger critique of the Shintao build. I think they should remove the Tomb of Jade proccing on the Smite Tainted and the Jade Strike both, but give Tomb of Jade (the Shintao 3 ability) at Shintao 1. Let's face it, that ability is best for being a psuedo-stun on undead and elementals, two creatures you could never before stun, and by giving it at level 6, you'd have it being useful for the longest period of time (as opposed to when you receive it at level 18, when, sure, you can use it on the devils, but you'd be better off using Kukan-Do on them as it's a Will save). It seems ironic to say that in this thread, which started because the OP had an undead entombed but couldn't hurt it, however, if it the proccing was removed and Tomb of Jade was given at level 6, then you'd never have the problem of accidentally entombing a bad guy.

If you're interested in the rest of my prescriptive critique, it's here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=277404&page=5), last post on the page, and I would even write it all out, but it really wouldn't be on topic for this thread.

[SneakThief]

I actually feel like the former is the better option. But then, that's part of a larger critique of the Shintao build.
Fair enough ...


*Sigh*

1d8 at 6 when you can first encounter the problem, 1d10 at 8 when unarmed deals more base than a quarterstaff (Ignoring the fact that unarmed attacks faster and more often than a quarterstaff due to the two weapon fighting feats) 2d6 at 12 when you get shintao 2 and the on critical prison rather than on vorpal, monks don't inherently bypass adamantine until 16th level and the dr 15/adamantine problem still applys all the way up to 15th.

I would rather use my +1 Holy bleeding handwraps (Or plain +4 or 5...) than a silly +1 adamantine store bought quarterstaff just because I decided to go and actually use an ability thats supposed to help me.

Furthermore if you're in a group the other melees would be punished because of an ability you used.
I should put "please continue reading" when I multi-reply ... the 2nd part of the post explains why, for me, the DR doesnt matter ... To summarize, the affected creature is taken out of combat and therefore anyone being punished is a victim of their own choices. They should be hitting something that can hurt them instead. To me, its like hypno, but no pink hat and they still cant fight back when it comes their turn for a pounding. Oh and auto-crit (for bursting since we are talking undead).

You wont convince me its a burden for it to take a little longer to kill something when there is no opposing threat to the player. If like waterboy, you feel it should just be removed, thats fair enough, and I could support that too. I'd be disappointed, but I'd live...