Playing a Ranger without using Archery

[Mornai]

Is this viable? I like the Ranger class, but I'd like to go full TWF and not have to use archery...should i carry around a bow and some arrows just in case? I don't want to be in a situation where there's a mob attacking from a distance/a lever in an unreachable area/etc. and realize that i have no ways of getting to it...and hanging my head in shame as the party laughs at the Ranger who can't even range.

Are there any quests that require some archery? I'm hoping those situations can be handled by the casters, and i can be up front with the melees. I've heard that Rangers don't have high HP at endgame, and tend to not be able to take a lot of damage endgame. Are they built for staying in the back and shooting from afar, or is it possible for me to stand up to that boss and not be killed in a few hits? Thanks for the answers. :)

[blitzschlag]

key to the ranger class in general is to know when to melee and when to use ranged.

the important ranged and two weapon fighting feats come for free on a ranger. so he is suited for both. manyshot + improved precise shot combined with bowstrength (and the strength to back it up) are too good to just don't use it.

so i'd recommend going tempest for you

you need 13 base dex (+tome) for dodge.

feats
dodge
mobility
spring attack (all 3 for tempest prereq)
oversized two weapon fighting (prereq for tempest III)
toughness
improved critical
power attack
kopesh(when human or exploiter)

use manyshot when the situation calls for it. line up some mobs. hit manyshot. mow em down. go into melee to finish em off.

[Meowin]

Before everybody rushes in and bashes you for that question: Yes, even going pure Ranger you will be more than good at melee using two weapons, just make sure you make STR and CON your main stats. Make sure you get power attack at some point and remember your WIS score can be 10 at creation, just wear an appropriate + WIS item to be able to cast spells later.

Also, as long as you carry a bow and some arrows you will be better at archery as many as you get the bowstrength, manyshot, precise shot, imp. precise shot for free and you can get the capstone for increased rate of fire if you go pure ranger.

Pure Ranger however is not quite popular for TWF builds, so have a look for multiclass TWF builds unless you want to go pure for some other reason.

Meowin

P.S.: And try the search function next time ;)

[Cinderbeard]

Ranger can make a very sturdy front line fighter. Invest in str and con and get the Tempest Enhancement line.

They get the whole Two Weapon Fighting chain for free and with Tempest3 they are the best dual wielders in game. Hit points will be fine with a high Con and the toughness feat, 500-600 easy at end game. Very versatile with self buffs, self healing, evasion, ...

And while ranging in DDO is sometimes frowned upon it has its uses. The good thing is rangers get some great ranged feats for free. Manyshot, improved precise shot, bowstrength, etc make you do awesome burst dmg without any real investment. Just make sure you carry a decent bow and some arrows as backup gear.

[Kriogen]

Go full melee. Its more efficient anyway. Like 2-3 times. Do carry around a bow or two. Just in case. Get a nice good-aligned bow and unlock House D silver/coldiron ammo and you're good to go.

The cool thing is, Ranger gets most feats for free (TWF and archery). You don't have to do anything special. Bateries included.

Don't dump DEX totaly. Some DEX is good for Evasion.

HPs have alot to do with CON and items. Don't go with some sort of CON 6 Elf and you'll do just fine. Oh, and get solid items.

*ANY* class/build can be made to be durable enough to stay in melee. Infact all builds in DDO must be built for melee. In many cases, especialy at high levels, melee range is unavoidable.

Oh, and at high levels, Rangers can cast cure spells. Doesn't make you a Cleric/FvS, but with some enhancements and Maximize, it helps.

[JDCrowell]

Is this viable? I like the Ranger class, but I'd like to go full TWF and not have to use archery...should i carry around a bow and some arrows just in case? I don't want to be in a situation where there's a mob attacking from a distance/a lever in an unreachable area/etc. and realize that i have no ways of getting to it...and hanging my head in shame as the party laughs at the Ranger who can't even range.

Are there any quests that require some archery? I'm hoping those situations can be handled by the casters, and i can be up front with the melees. I've heard that Rangers don't have high HP at endgame, and tend to not be able to take a lot of damage endgame. Are they built for staying in the back and shooting from afar, or is it possible for me to stand up to that boss and not be killed in a few hits? Thanks for the answers. :)

:) you sound somewhat like me when I started out.

The best build advice I ever got for a Ranger as a new player was tihocan's Tempest (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2800940&postcount=16).

If you don't want the Rogue skills, you can drop the level of Rogue and start as a Ranger and take 2 levels of Fighter. Your end multi-class breakdown would be 18/Ranger 2/Fighter. Since you want to go Tempest, there is really no need for the capstone and the 2 Fighter levels will help your HP, BAB (if you start Fighter), and give you the Haste Boost Enhancement.

Hope it helps :)

[Mornai]

Thank you all for the great answers, I don't post in forums often so i didn't think of doing a search first, sorry about that. Thanks for the advice on the feats, stats, and also thanks for the link! :)

[QuantumFX]

All my rangers are Tempests. However, they all carry a Greater Construct Bane bow (Useful in a bunch of raids.) and some sort of DR bypassing bow for the Demon Queen.

[grodon9999]

You'd be a fool to NOT ever use the bow, it does come in handy at times.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3278391&postcount=11

[Rusty_Can]

Is this viable?

Perfectly viable.



Are there any quests that require some archery?

I might sound a bit cryptic here, but the general consensus is that archery is allowed only in PvP against WF sorcerers .... *grins*

Aside from jokes, there are some quests where ranged combat is (situationally) useful, but any ranger can handle those easily.


Are they built for staying in the back and shooting from afar, or is it possible for me to stand up to that boss and not be killed in a few hits?

Ranger class is a martial class; properly built rangers can make very good frontline combatants.

[grodon9999]

If you don't want the Rogue skills, you can drop the level of Rogue and start as a Ranger and take 2 levels of Fighter. Your end multi-class breakdown would be 18/Ranger 2/Fighter. Since you want to go Tempest, there is really no need for the capstone and the 2 Fighter levels will help your HP, BAB (if you start Fighter), and give you the Haste Boost Enhancement.


DO NOT drop the rogue level. It's not just for rogue skills but UMD and Sneak attack. That extra 1d6+3 adds up.

[rimble]

You'd be a fool to NOT ever use the bow, it does come in handy at times.

Agreed. I've been in plenty of situations where the Ranger saved the day (or, at least, simplified the day) by whipping out a bow and hitting Manyshot. Sure, don't make a GS or anything, but carry around a Silver Longbow and use it when appropriate.

[grodon9999]

Agreed. I've been in plenty of situations where the Ranger saved the day (or, at least, simplified the day) by whipping out a bow and hitting Manyshot. Sure, don't make a GS or anything, but carry around a Silver Longbow and use it when appropriate.

Actually . . . a teir 2 Positive/Positive bow isn't a bad idea for a tempest as it'll also give you a handy res-clicke.

[PNellesen]

Is this viable? I like the Ranger class, but I'd like to go full TWF and not have to use archery...should i carry around a bow and some arrows just in case? I don't want to be in a situation where there's a mob attacking from a distance/a lever in an unreachable area/etc. and realize that i have no ways of getting to it...and hanging my head in shame as the party laughs at the Ranger who can't even range.


My 2nd character was (is) a pure Elf dex-based Ranger. Although at first I naively thought he'd primarily be an archer, I found out fast what an invalid idea that was and steered him towards the Tempest Ranger line. That said, however, I wouldn't even THINK of playing without using a bow. Manyshot is just too deadly when used in the right situation (and ESPECIALLY when soloing) to give it up. Byshek arrows + Flaming burst bow + Manyshot + Improved Precise shot + Mantle of the Worldshaper (or other spell absorption item) + Deathblock helmet == 2 or 3 Dead Beholders, quickly ;)


...Are they built for staying in the back and shooting from afar, or is it possible for me to stand up to that boss and not be killed in a few hits? Thanks for the answers. :)

I just rolled another STR based fighter-splashed Dwarf Ranger (if he makes it to endgame, he'll be 18R/2F) - at level 4, he's got 20 STR/20 CON with a couple items equipped and a couple +1 Tomes my other characters looted - and so far, he's doing a fine job both at doing some long-range damage with Bow Strength, then swapping to his dual axes or Greataxe when they get in close. He appears to be able to take a TON of punishment, and with Fighter Haste Boost I, he tears through at-level mobs pretty quickly. So, I expect him to be able to indeed "stand up to that boss" as he moves up, can't wait to see how he does.

[Therigar]

The most powerful build, in many people's opinion, is the Exploiter which is 18/1/1 Ranger/Rogue/Monk.

The biggest mistake players make is trying to build a Ranger that is ranged focused. That is the weakest build in the game (among combat classes). The short-term burst damage of the Arcane Archer is not enough to compensate for the long-term lack of damage. And nobody talks seriously about Deepwoods Sniper.

The hands-down best Ranger build is Tempest. It is exceptionally strong even when not completely geared and among the top 3 or 4 damage builds in the game when fully geared -- maybe even the top build.

Congrats on recognizing that ranged combat is not worth the investment and looking for the only workable alternative -- melee. DDO is melee-centric and if you are a combat class that is the only right place to invest your effort.

[grodon9999]

The biggest mistake players make is trying to build a Ranger that is ranged focused. That is the weakest build in the game (among combat classes). The short-term burst damage of the Arcane Archer is not enough to compensate for the long-term lack of damage. And nobody talks seriously about Deepwoods Sniper.

Only if he never puts down the bow. You're still a good TWFer, only about 10% behind a Tempest.



The hands-down best Ranger build is Tempest. It is exceptionally strong even when not completely geared and among the top 3 or 4 damage builds in the game when fully geared -- maybe even the top build.

It also depends on how you splash and multiclass. A guildie of mine is rolling a Ranger 12/Rogue 7/Monk 1 as a 34-point life for his current rogue. Arcane Archer. According to AO's DPS calculator she will do more MELEE damage than an 18/1/1 Tempest with identical gear and have 10,000 damage manyshots.



Congrats on recognizing that ranged combat is not worth the investment and looking for the only workable alternative -- melee. DDO is melee-centric and if you are a combat class that is the only right place to invest your effort.

I'll let somebody else answer this one :)

[unbongwah]

No, you don't need to use archery as a Tempest. But you get all those archery feats for free; why wouldn't you keep a longbow in your inventory just in case? It's another tool in your toolbox.

[EatSmart]

Is this viable? I like the Ranger class, but I'd like to go full TWF and not have to use archery...
Perfectly fine.


should i carry around a bow and some arrows just in case?
You get pretty much all the feats an archer could wish for as granted feats, so yes carry a bow. All it's costing you is one inventory slot (the quiver slot is free).


Are there any quests that require some archery? I'm hoping those situations can be handled by the casters, and i can be up front with the melees.
Not really, but at the same time there are pleanty of opportunities to kill mobs more easily/less expensively with ranged.


I've heard that Rangers don't have high HP at endgame, and tend to not be able to take a lot of damage endgame. Are they built for staying in the back and shooting from afar, or is it possible for me to stand up to that boss and not be killed in a few hits?
Its all about how you chose build them.

The best mindset to go in with as a tempest is that you're primarily evasion melee, but you also have a toolbox of situationally useful abilities in your spellcasting and your ranged attacks. If all you want is "melee, melee, melee" and never want to make use of that toolbox, even though its costing you almost nothing to support, you'd be more suited to another class/build.

[PopeJual]

I do think that you should carry a bow. I think that everyone should carry a bow (or crossbow or returning throwing axe or whatever) because there are times when you need to get something's attention or lower a bridge by shooting a target or something, but you don't have to make the bow a regular part of your questing life if you don't want to.

At some point, if you get your hands on a paralyzing bow, then you can act as crowd control while the other party members do the work of killing the enemies that you have paralyzed. Aside from using a paralyzing bow, you'll do far more damage and be far more effective in melee, so go ahead and smack your foes with your hand held weapons and don't feel any need to apologize for it.

Eventually, you'll see what things you want to use a bow for and what things you want to use swords for and the final decision on what weapon you want to use in each situation is ultimately yours. As long as you're not actively disrupting the party's plans, then have a good time with it.

[Khanyth]

Aren't archers without bows called fighters?

But hey... dowhatchalike

[Therigar]

It also depends on how you splash and multiclass. A guildie of mine is rolling a Ranger 12/Rogue 7/Monk 1 as a 34-point life for his current rogue. Arcane Archer. According to AO's DPS calculator she will do more MELEE damage than an 18/1/1 Tempest with identical gear and have 10,000 damage manyshots.

Proof? Without counting backstab damage? Also a 34 TR Exploiter?

I find this improbable at best -- but willing to let you post the evidence for it.

[grodon9999]

Proof? Without counting backstab damage? Also a 34 TR Exploiter?

I find this improbable at best -- but willing to let you post the evidence for it.

Oh hell no! You gotta count Sneak Attack Damage! :)

With no sneak attack the Exploiter is ahead as well as at 50% fort when fighting BFDs.

Sneak attack 31 points a swing (32 in this case since it's passive rogue past life) compared to an Exploiters 14.5. That adds up, plus the 7 rogue levels will get you 25% haste-boost compared to 15% for the Exploiter's 1 level of rogue.

It's also REALLY close with the Exploiter clocking in at 390 DPS and the 12/7/1 getting 395. With Lightning IIs it's 423 DPS and 425 DPS respectively. Yes, it's SO close that I should have said even but technically it's higher. This is calculated using AO's DPS calc with identical gear.

It's calculated over a 5 minute period of time, both at 40 STR and identical gear. The sneak attack and higher haste-boot pay off for the 12/7/1.

[moorewr]

Aren't archers without bows called fighters?

But hey... dowhatchalike

I'm not sure what your intended point was. Hopefully you are aware that the name of the class, Ranger, refers to walking around outdoors and not ranged combat.

In D&D, the source game, a bow-focused fighter can far exceed the ranged abilities of a melee-focused ranger. In DDO, the ranger gets many free ranged feats, but even here, arguably the #1 most effective ranged build is an elf arcane archer kensei fighter.

[Consumer]

Oh hell no! You gotta count Sneak Attack Damage! :)

With no sneak attack the Exploiter is ahead as well as at 50% fort when fighting BFDs.

Sneak attack 31 points a swing (32 in this case since it's passive rogue past life) compared to an Exploiters 14.5. That adds up, plus the 7 rogue levels will get you 25% haste-boost compared to 15% for the Exploiter's 1 level of rogue.

It's also REALLY close with the Exploiter clocking in at 390 DPS and the 12/7/1 getting 395. With Lightning IIs it's 423 DPS and 425 DPS respectively. Yes, it's SO close that I should have said even but technically it's higher. This is calculated using AO's DPS calc with identical gear.

It's calculated over a 5 minute period of time, both at 40 STR and identical gear. The sneak attack and higher haste-boot pay off for the 12/7/1.

See, the damage calc is fun, now to get the rest of the forum to use it.

[hermespan]

Is this viable? I like the Ranger class, but I'd like to go full TWF and not have to use archery...should i carry around a bow and some arrows just in case? I don't want to be in a situation where there's a mob attacking from a distance/a lever in an unreachable area/etc. and realize that i have no ways of getting to it...and hanging my head in shame as the party laughs at the Ranger who can't even range.

Are there any quests that require some archery? I'm hoping those situations can be handled by the casters, and i can be up front with the melees. I've heard that Rangers don't have high HP at endgame, and tend to not be able to take a lot of damage endgame. Are they built for staying in the back and shooting from afar, or is it possible for me to stand up to that boss and not be killed in a few hits? Thanks for the answers. :)

You can still do more damage as a tempest III with a bow than any other characters but a AA ranger or AA racial PrE. Kensai/Racial AA can do more damage with bow str and manyshot, but they need to burn feats for this. Not like fighters are short on feats tho.

Definitely carry a bow, and get the 75% returning arrows from House D (D favor opens up merchant to get these).

Cold Iron arrows for DQ quest. That's really the only one where a bow is "necessary" (except for DR/Guard builds which are comparatively rare) Bows are useful for some other quests but not "necessary". You can do a TON of damage with manyshot running tho. Don't discount it in your DPS output. I use bows with manyshot running and swap out to twf between cooldowns, sometimes. With my GS khopeshs finished and nearly finished, TWF GS Khopesh is probably better now all the time.

For boss fights you want 350+ HP. Everyone pretty much surrounds them and beats them down with melee for most raids with group heals. You really want over 400 HP in case there are lag issues and they are late on some heals, the healer gets hit by something and misses a heal, or the healer dies. You can get it up well over 400 with a +3 con tome (20th raid reward, hound of xoriat hard/elite etc.) and gear, exceptional con, guild ship +1 con buff etc.

Don't range bosses as a tempest (outside of demon queen), you'll miss group heals and people will think you are sissy lol.

[grodon9999]

See, the damage calc is fun, now to get the rest of the forum to use it.

It's is but people need to remember it's a guideline and not a gospel. it's great for comparing X build versus Y build under the exact same circumstances and for seeing how a build would work with different weapon sets. There's too many X-factors in this game for it to be 100% accurate.

It doesn't paint a complete picture, but it's a very useful tool.

[Consumer]

it's Is But People Need To Remember It's A Guideline And Not A Gospel. It's Great For Comparing X Build Versus Y Build Under The Exact Same Circumstances And For Seeing How A Build Would Work With Different Weapon Sets. There's Too Many X-factors In This Game For It To Be 100% Accurate.

It Doesn't Paint A Complete Picture, But It's A Very Useful Tool.

Dps
Hp
...


I Cant Balance This.

[grodon9999]

Dps
Hp
...


I Cant Balance This.

You forgot Gear :)

[Therigar]

Oh hell no! You gotta count Sneak Attack Damage! :)

With no sneak attack the Exploiter is ahead as well as at 50% fort when fighting BFDs.

Sneak attack 31 points a swing (32 in this case since it's passive rogue past life) compared to an Exploiters 14.5. That adds up, plus the 7 rogue levels will get you 25% haste-boost compared to 15% for the Exploiter's 1 level of rogue.

It's also REALLY close with the Exploiter clocking in at 390 DPS and the 12/7/1 getting 395. With Lightning IIs it's 423 DPS and 425 DPS respectively. Yes, it's SO close that I should have said even but technically it's higher. This is calculated using AO's DPS calc with identical gear.

It's calculated over a 5 minute period of time, both at 40 STR and identical gear. The sneak attack and higher haste-boot pay off for the 12/7/1.

In the real game sneak attack doing that amount of damage is going to pull aggression -- meaning sneak will only count once*. So it is a bogus comparison. We are all well aware that rogues can proc the highest DPS when they get to count sneak attack.

*It might be that aggression will change when the 12/7/1 build is no longer doing the most damage and that the build will be able to proc another sneak attack. I wouldn't count on it.

[Mercureal]

Don't range bosses as a tempest (outside of demon queen), you'll miss group heals and people will think you are sissy lol.

Depending on your gear and melee damage output, it can be worth it to use multishot at pointblank range against some bosses. In VoD, I use multishot and unload half a quiver of silver arrows in Suulo's back with my holy burst of GLOB bow - I even get a few points of SA damage for each shot.

Of course, after the 20 seconds are up...

[grodon9999]

In the real game sneak attack doing that amount of damage is going to pull aggression -- meaning sneak will only count once*. So it is a bogus comparison. We are all well aware that rogues can proc the highest DPS when they get to count sneak attack.

*It might be that aggression will change when the 12/7/1 build is no longer doing the most damage and that the build will be able to proc another sneak attack. I wouldn't count on it.

My friend will have 40% threat reduction, 20 from Tharne's set, 20 from Enhancements. Don't forget blindness from Holy aura and Radiance weapons. We thought of that :)

Rogue Haste Boost I, 20,
Rogue Haste Boost II, 20,
Rogue Haste Boost III, 20,
Ranger Sprint Boost I, 20,
Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Acid Arrows, 20,
Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Explosive Arrows, 20,
Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Arrows, 20,
Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Force Burst Arrows, 20,
Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Slaying Arrows, 20,
Elven Arcane Archer: Imbue Terror Arrows, 20,
Elven Dexterity I, 20,
Elven Dexterity II, 20,
Aerenal Elf Melee Attack I, 20,
Aerenal Elf Melee Attack II, 20,
Aerenal Elf Melee Damage I, 20,
Aerenal Elf Melee Damage II, 20,
Elven Ranged Attack I, 20,
Elven Ranged Attack II, 20,
Elven Ranged Damage I, 20,
Elven Ranged Damage II, 20,
Rogue Subtle Backstabbing I, 20,
Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II, 20,
Racial Toughness I, 20,
Racial Toughness II, 20,
Ranger Favored Defense I, 20,
Ranger Favored Defense II, 20,
Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +2 Arrows, 20,
Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +3 Arrows, 20,
Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +4 Arrows, 20,
Elven Arcane Archer: Conjure +5 Arrows, 20,
Elven Arcane Archer I, 20,
Rogue Faster Sneaking I, 20,
Rogue Sneak Attack Training I, 20,
Rogue Sneak Attack Training II, 20,
Rogue Sneak Attack Training III, 20,
Ranger Devotion I, 20,
Ranger Dexterity I, 20,
Ranger Dexterity II, 20,
Ranger Dexterity III, 20,

[Consumer]

You forgot Gear :)

insert melee here:

Epic helm of the red dragon
Tharne's Googles
Litany of the Dead / bloodstone
Shintao Cord
Earthgrab cloak
Epic Marilith chain / red scale
Colethenis's Belt / Knost's
Gloves of the Claw
Bracers of the Claw
Kyosho's Ring
Ring of the Ravager / Encrusted
Madstone boots

Next

[Therigar]

My friend will have 40% threat reduction, 20 from Tharne's set, 20 from Enhancements. We thought of that :)

Well, good luck with that. ;)

[grodon9999]

Well, good luck with that. ;)

Not me, a guildie is rolling it. I'll be TRing one of my 18/1/1 toons with it.

But you see my point, it's possible for an archer to be able to put out acceptable melee damage. You can build for both. She'll have crappy HP and stuff until we gear her up as we're going to be spreading the abilities kind thin but it'll be a fun and effective character.

[grodon9999]

insert melee here:

Epic helm of the red dragon
Tharne's Googles
Litany of the Dead / bloodstone
Shintao Cord
Earthgrab cloak
Epic Marilith chain / red scale
Colethenis's Belt / Knost's
Gloves of the Claw
Bracers of the Claw
Kyosho's Ring
Ring of the Ravager / Encrusted
Madstone boots

Next

It really is that cookie-cutter in the world of power-gaming ubber-DPS. Sad but true.

[Mornai]

Thanks, i appreciate all of your answers. I wasn't planning on completely forgetting archery, i was just worrying about situations such as the party expecting me to be using my bow 90% of the time, and complaining when I'm on the front lines or something like that. I shall heed all of this advice, thanks everyone!