Fortification on bosses works as intended?

[Intension]

I have noticed long time ago that fortificated bosses have a separate fortification rolls on crits and sneak attacks.

Lately I checked multiple times on different bosses and what I’ve notice is that I can have 3 scenarios:

- Normal hit with or without the SA dmg bonus accordignly with fortification
- Critical hit (no fort resistance) with SA damage (Full damage)
- Critical hit (no fort resistance) without SA damage (as the fortification resisted it)

It puzzled me alot. Does it works as intendend or there is something wrong?

To my logic when I bypass a boss fortification with a critical hit I should always apply SA. Maybe I’m wrong here but I’d like to heard from the forum community.

[Bacab]

I have noticed same thing.

I have critted before and Tharne's Goggles damage was not applied.

I have critted but not gotten past Fortification but gotten my Tharne's Goggles damage.

*BUT*

Maybe you were getting aggro?

AKA

With aggro you get Crit damage...but no backstab.

[Intension]

I have noticed same thing.

I have critted before and Tharne's Goggles damage was not applied.

I have critted but not gotten past Fortification but gotten my Tharne's Goggles damage.

*BUT*

Maybe you were getting aggro?

AKA

With aggro you get Crit damage...but no backstab.


I didn't have aggro on me

I've checked yesterday on ToD bosses and saw it regularly on Horot while I was hit him from behind. I didn't check the screenshots I had but maybe later (when I'm back home and if I can understand how to do it) I can try to post one showing it

[blitzschlag]

well, the sneak attack damage has to have an extra roll on fortification as it is applied on each attack.

so on a critical hit there are naturally 2 separate fortification rolls. one for the crit and one for the sneak attack damage. working as intended i'd say

[Intension]

well, the sneak attack damage has to have an extra roll on fortification as it is applied on each attack.

so on a critical hit there are naturally 2 separate fortification rolls. one for the crit and one for the sneak attack damage. working as intended i'd say

I don't know if I can explain it correctly but:

When I'm hitting a boss and do a critical hit, that means he already had a roll versus my critical and he didn't save it. It has a chance to resist it and he failed.
Since the SA is applying on the same hit, why does it have a cance for a second roll?

It sounds weird to me

[Spoprockel]

As mentioned above, Sneak Attacks and Critical Hits are two different things.

Fortification works against both, so there should be a roll for each.

I think it works as intended.

[Impaqt]

no.

Sneak attack is PART of the "Critical hit"

there should not be 2 separate confirm crit rolls. You Roll a "Crit" them Confirm that it was indeed a Crit. If it was, you get your weapon damage modified AND your sneak attack. at least thatsthe way I always played PnP.

I have not noticed having to roll 2 separate Confirm crits, but I do know that in a Crit situation, in the conbat log, the Sneak attack damage is added to the main damage. so insted of seeing

you do 50 points of Slashh damage
You do 50 points of sneak attack damage

you just get

You sneak attack for 100 Points of damage.

Post a chunk of combat log. if there are 2 separate rolls now, it may be a resuiult of the mod6 Combat changes. I never noticed this and have several characters with SA damage.

[P1rat3cat]

no.

Snake attack is PART of the "Critical hit"



HUHU nice, Impaqt found a new rogue attack ;-))))))))))))))))

Just joking with you hihi!

And yes, once you pass the fort of the boss all dmg should have been aplied in that same attack, crit and SA dmg. Unless we just found another way that the Devs are cheating ^^.

[Impaqt]

HUHU nice, Impaqt found a new rogue attack ;-))))))))))))))))

Just joking with you hihi!

And yes, once you pass the fort of the boss all dmg should have been aplied in that same attack, crit and SA dmg. Unless we just found another way that the Devs are cheating ^^.

whoops. Corrected. Typing never was a strong point.

[dkyle]

From http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#fortification:


When a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on the wearer, there is a chance that the critical hit or sneak attack is negated and damage is instead rolled normally.

Seem ambiguous to me whether there is a single percentile rolled, or one for each. I don't think your way is any more definitive than what it currently is.

In any event, what does it matter? Average DPS is exactly the same whether there's one roll for both, or two rolls, one for each. If anything two rolls benefits us, as it means smoother DPS, which is generally more desirable than randomly bursting DPS.

[Impaqt]

From the D&D Wiki:
Critical Hits
When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”). To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn’t need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit.

A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.

Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.
--------------------

Unfortunatly, the Wiki and SRD are not as clear when it comes to sneak attack and DDO does not use the same mechanics as PnP anyway. so "WAI" is hard to determine.

[dkyle]

Those rules don't address Fortification at all.

[Intension]

no.

Sneak attack is PART of the "Critical hit"

there should not be 2 separate confirm crit rolls. You Roll a "Crit" them Confirm that it was indeed a Crit. If it was, you get your weapon damage modified AND your sneak attack. at least thatsthe way I always played PnP.

I have not noticed having to roll 2 separate Confirm crits, but I do know that in a Crit situation, in the conbat log, the Sneak attack damage is added to the main damage. so insted of seeing

you do 50 points of Slashh damage
You do 50 points of sneak attack damage

you just get

You sneak attack for 100 Points of damage.

Post a chunk of combat log. if there are 2 separate rolls now, it may be a resuiult of the mod6 Combat changes. I never noticed this and have several characters with SA damage.


In fact I wasn't able to understand how much damage come from crit and how much from sneack attack because they are showed in combat log as total.
By the way I can try to post ss of battles where a critical hit is visible with sneack attack damange (you know,the number above the mobs) and another when it doesn't.

Or I can try to show it from the total damage. Having an average 80 sneak attack damage so the differences between the crits with or without SA are huge. Normally about 120-140 vs 200+

[Spoprockel]

The way i see it 50% fortification has a chance of 50% to block all SA damage on all my hits.

Why should critical hits be an exception to that? It's just more damage with SA damage atttached.

In addition to that, 50% fortification provides a chance of 50% to negate a critical hit.


I'm not saying this is how it actually works, it just appears logical to me.

Although the rules leave space for interpretation

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Fortification

[Impaqt]

the problem is DDO has different rules for "Sneak attack" which makes it incredibly difficult to determine WAI.

the only requirement is that you dont have aggro.

Sneak attack damage is also added to all crits in DDO(As far as I can tell)

[dkyle]

the problem is DDO has different rules for "Sneak attack" which makes it incredibly difficult to determine WAI.

the only requirement is that you dont have aggro.

Yeah, the DDO sneak attack rules are much more permissive than 3.5. I didn't even realize concealment was supposed to negate sneak attack until I looked at the SRD just now. Or that Halflings probably shouldn't be able to sneak attack Giants.

But the changes all seem to apply to the requirements to get sneak attack, not how they behave once acquired. There's no reason to believe Fortification (which simply negates sneak attacks that have already passed the requirements) would work differently than PnP. Unfortunately, PnP's fortification rules are a bit ambiguous.


Sneak attack damage is also added to all crits in DDO(As far as I can tell)

I'm positive that's not the case. I solo quite frequently (and so always have aggro) on my Bard and Dark Monk, both of whom have sneak attack dice, and I would have noticed if sneak attack was automatically showing up on crits.

[Intension]

Bumping with a couple of ss (even if i really don't know how to link the images directly)

http://img84.imageshack.us/i/screenshot00074v.jpg/

http://img375.imageshack.us/i/screenshot00076b.jpg/

On the first one I had a crit hit and added 71 dmg of SA
On the second one I had a crit again but didn't add SA damage

I'm agreeing with impaqt that SA should be part of critical and shouldn't have a separate roll and this is something that is not working as intended to me.

[dkyle]

On the first one I had a crit hit and added 71 dmg of SA
On the second one I had a crit again but didn't add SA damage

Good to know for sure. Thanks for the screenshots.


I'm agreeing with impaqt that SA should be part of critical and shouldn't have a separate roll and this is something that is not working as intended to me.

I could see it going either way, but changing it would presumably cost Dev time, so why not leave it as-is? It doesn't really matter. Same DPS either way.

[Intension]

I could see it going either way, but changing it would presumably cost Dev time, so why not leave it as-is? It doesn't really matter. Same DPS either way.

How could you say that?
Given the fact that I'm critting half the time I could due to 50% fortification, seeing that half of my crits haven't the SA damage added because of the fortification (that I've already bypassed wit the crit) IS a loss of DPS to me. And 70-90 dmg are not a little loss.

Applying it on a group where several toon have SA bonuses (from class, Tharne's or whatever) could result in a noticeable DPS loss in the long run