which BC is better?

[kartos]

ok so I thought of starting a battle cleric just for fun and I'm not sure which build to take

1)human
S 14
D 16
C 14
I 8
W 14
Ch 8

dual wielding khposhes cleric with good battle power and healing abillity offinsive spell DC's rather low

lvl ups 1 dex rest strength or wis

2)human
S 14
D 8
C 14
I 8
W 18
Ch 8

he will use khopseh and tower shield the level ups are gonna be 3 STR 2 WIS so in the end he will be 2 DC behind a regular cleric meaning he can kill with melee and still cast reliability

3)human
S 14
D 8
C 14
I 8
W 14
Ch 16

again using khopesh and tower shield but this tim invests 4 level ups in cha for DM 4

which 1 is better?

the first 1 would be stronger melee but lacks CC (14 starting wis +4 lvl ups +human versatility +3 cleric wis +7 item +3 exp +2 tome that's 34 max which is 31 DC at best and if 4 lvl ups to STR then it's 29 DC)

the 2nd will be a little worse at melee but will have very good CC (18 starting + 2 lvl ups +1 human versatility +3 cleric wisdom +7 item + 3 exceptional +2 tome is 36 which is 32 DC just 2 DC behind a cleric with 5 level ups into wis)

the last 1 will be nice at fighting and casting but the question is will DM make up for no dual wielding?

[Krag]

2) and 3) are not BC because you can't deal damage wearing shield.

1) looks more like a BC. As for the weapon, I would prefer heavy/light picks, rapiers. This route is less feat intensive, more beginner friendly and gives you significant advantage once you start farming epics.

[erikbozelie]

ok so I thought of starting a battle cleric just for fun and I'm not sure which build to take

1)human
S 14
D 16
C 14
I 8
W 14
Ch 8

dual wielding khposhes cleric with good battle power and healing abillity offinsive spell DC's rather low

lvl ups 1 dex rest strength or wis

2)human
S 14
D 8
C 14
I 8
W 18
Ch 8

he will use khopseh and tower shield the level ups are gonna be 3 STR 2 WIS so in the end he will be 2 DC behind a regular cleric meaning he can kill with melee and still cast reliability

3)human
S 14
D 8
C 14
I 8
W 14
Ch 16

again using khopesh and tower shield but this tim invests 4 level ups in cha for DM 4

which 1 is better?

the first 1 would be stronger melee but lacks CC (14 starting wis +4 lvl ups +human versatility +3 cleric wis +7 item +3 exp +2 tome that's 34 max which is 31 DC at best and if 4 lvl ups to STR then it's 29 DC)

the 2nd will be a little worse at melee but will have very good CC (18 starting + 2 lvl ups +1 human versatility +3 cleric wisdom +7 item + 3 exceptional +2 tome is 36 which is 32 DC just 2 DC behind a cleric with 5 level ups into wis)

the last 1 will be nice at fighting and casting but the question is will DM make up for no dual wielding?

first of all.

warpriests are melee-ers
battle clerics are casters.

neighter are pure good healers but should both be able to.

now i will say to you the thing i have said against every battle cleric or warpriest ingame since the end of time.
DO IT RIGHT OR DONT DO IT AT ALL.

people are going to nag alot against you for low dps, low casting, and no healing.

what do you which to accomplish? melee? then go for max strength, make sure in the endgame you can rage for up to 50+ strength while swinging an 2h weapon.

OR this is probally more your kind of build, swinging 2 weapons you can lower your strength abit... if you get the ammount back doubled in Divine might. since with 2w, the amount will be doubled compared to 2h, 1h or h2h then this might be worth it.

if you want to cast make sure you 1hit kill everything in the game, including the reaver's dragon's etc. nothing less will be expected off you.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

there will always be an exeption to everything.
and the best in everything is situational.

your build might really work good in some cases, but will suck in the other. this doesnt mean you cant be the best in 1 thing.

khopesh high crit is useless against undead... for example.

my advice to you is:
take drow, raise strength to 16. charisma to 16 dex to 17, abit of con, and if you have the 32pt build dump the rest into wisdom (8 +2 tome +3cleric +6 enhancement = 19, all youll need). rest in whatever you like.
even on my 26 wisdom 50 strength pure cleric he can suck beholders into implosions, with low stats.. just comes luck and passing out alot of negative levels ;).

now for the cualculation:
16 +6 enhancements +5 levelups +3 tome +3 exeptional = 31 strength based +2 rage clikie +2 shrine +8 psionic +4 madstone = 47 strength which is pretty good and has an 18 mod.

16+2tome charisma... nah lets make it an die hard grind build +4 tome... which is 20 charisma... gives Divine might 4.


to hit:
+18 strength
+20 bab (divine power 4min buff)
+5 weapon
+3 luck (divine favor 4 min buff)
+2 competance (tumbleweed)
(-5 power atack).
43 to hit... pretty decent... maybe +2 training dummy. 50 with power atack and training dummy on.

to Damage:
Main hand: off hand
+18 strength : +9 strength
+3 divine favor : +3 divine favor
+5 weapon : +5 weapon
+5 power atack : +5 power atack
+8 Divine might : +8 divine might

+39 : +30 to dmg.

well at least youll be critting in the 3 digit numbers.

you can dump dex, get 2 levels of ranger to get rid of the most penalty's but since one of the lasts update im not really sure how the off hand weapon reacts... i heard it was pretty sucky, so dont it, youll also will lose DM4 with splashing.

feats:
1:exotic weapon prof.
3:2 weap fighting.
6:empower healing
9:extent
12:improved 2 weap fighting
15:toughness
18:quicken

im not sure if you need greater 2 weap fighting in the build, i never played an 2w toon so that might be an better question to someone else. as for improved critical: Min2 takes care of that.

any other question?

[Natashaelle]

There are many misconceptions floating around about Battle Clerics ; the most important of which is a certain unawareness that there are many different ways of making one, depending what you want out of it, and depending how much effort you want to put into it.


2) and 3) are not BC because you can't deal damage wearing shield.

erm, haven't you ever seen any High AC Battle Clerics ? :)

---

I personally don't consider offensively casting clerics to be Battle Clerics at all. That doesn't mean they're not effective, because well-played they are very effective indeed, but I would still call them "offensive caster clerics who can mêlée". They're just (usually) not specialist Battle Clerics in my opinion (barring some happy exceptions), because they need to support their mêlée with a great deal of reliance on their blue bar, whereas a specialist can happily empty the blue bar on emergency heals and keep on fighting very effectively even oom.

The easiest "styles" of Battle Cleric to make are, IMO, Tank version, where you focus a lot on AC and go into mêlée and generally self-heal using mass cures to help everyone else simultaneously -- one attraction of this is that it's very feat-light, providing some versatility, so you could be intimicleric, DPS tank, armoured healer, whatever... ; 2WF version, usually khopesh, maxed out STR, a more or less significant fighter/ranger splash, various spellcasting strategies being feasible according to taste and personal style ; 2HF version, ideally half-orc I'd guess, similar to 2WF but probably easier to build ; ranged version -- a bit harder to build, but the idea here is that you alternate between mass cure spamming and manyshot. It is also possible to make a high DEX monk-splash AC one, but I personally tend to find them to be a bit squishy and less effective than advertised. Another amusing variant is the Rogue-Splash Cleric, but the INT requirement to get enough trapmonkeying out of it is so high that a Battle Cleric version might be hard to sustain, although the Combat Expertise that it allows is somewhat attractive.

But really, the "best" Battle Cleric will be the one that plays to your personal strengths and playing style, rather than trying to follow other people's suggestions too closely. The fact is that it's such a versatile concept that it is very likely you will be able to make one by yourself far more suited to your style of play than any suggestions that you may receive from others. The only *real* requirement is that you pick a fighting style for your toon, and concentrate all your efforts on making that style as effective as possible with that character ; and bear in mind the precise ratio of fighting versus healing that you wish to achieve. Oh, and maxed out STR is pretty much obligatory if your chosen fighting style is mêlée offensive. :)

[kartos]

first of all.

warpriests are melee-ers
battle clerics are casters.

neighter are pure good healers but should both be able to.

now i will say to you the thing i have said against every battle cleric or warpriest ingame since the end of time.
DO IT RIGHT OR DONT DO IT AT ALL.

people are going to nag alot against you for low dps, low casting, and no healing.

what do you which to accomplish? melee? then go for max strength, make sure in the endgame you can rage for up to 50+ strength while swinging an 2h weapon.

OR this is probally more your kind of build, swinging 2 weapons you can lower your strength abit... if you get the ammount back doubled in Divine might. since with 2w, the amount will be doubled compared to 2h, 1h or h2h then this might be worth it.

if you want to cast make sure you 1hit kill everything in the game, including the reaver's dragon's etc. nothing less will be expected off you.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

there will always be an exeption to everything.
and the best in everything is situational.

your build might really work good in some cases, but will suck in the other. this doesnt mean you cant be the best in 1 thing.

khopesh high crit is useless against undead... for example.

my advice to you is:
take drow, raise strength to 16. charisma to 16 dex to 17, abit of con, and if you have the 32pt build dump the rest into wisdom (8 +2 tome +3cleric +6 enhancement = 19, all youll need). rest in whatever you like.
even on my 26 wisdom 50 strength pure cleric he can suck beholders into implosions, with low stats.. just comes luck and passing out alot of negative levels ;).

now for the cualculation:
16 +6 enhancements +5 levelups +3 tome +3 exeptional = 31 strength based +2 rage clikie +2 shrine +8 psionic +4 madstone = 47 strength which is pretty good and has an 18 mod.

16+2tome charisma... nah lets make it an die hard grind build +4 tome... which is 20 charisma... gives Divine might 4.


to hit:
+18 strength
+20 bab (divine power 4min buff)
+5 weapon
+3 luck (divine favor 4 min buff)
+2 competance (tumbleweed)
(-5 power atack).
43 to hit... pretty decent... maybe +2 training dummy. 50 with power atack and training dummy on.

to Damage:
Main hand: off hand
+18 strength : +9 strength
+3 divine favor : +3 divine favor
+5 weapon : +5 weapon
+5 power atack : +5 power atack
+8 Divine might : +8 divine might

+39 : +30 to dmg.

well at least youll be critting in the 3 digit numbers.

you can dump dex, get 2 levels of ranger to get rid of the most penalty's but since one of the lasts update im not really sure how the off hand weapon reacts... i heard it was pretty sucky, so dont it, youll also will lose DM4 with splashing.

feats:
1:exotic weapon prof.
3:2 weap fighting.
6:empower healing
9:extent
12:improved 2 weap fighting
15:toughness
18:quicken

im not sure if you need greater 2 weap fighting in the build, i never played an 2w toon so that might be an better question to someone else. as for improved critical: Min2 takes care of that.

any other question?

ok so I don't have drow (and if I had I would never make a drow cleric )

about feats cleric has 3/4 BAB so wep prof is only at level 3 and for TWF all 3 feats are a most to be able to deal good damage unless yo uyare uber buffed with both cleric and wiz buffs

so the feats are more like

1:TWF
HB:toughens
3:wep prof:khopesh
6:empower healing
9:ITWF
12:IC slashing
15:GTWF
18:power attack

no extend no quicken though because of self healing I may drop toughens

about the calculations I need 1 lvl up to dex for ITWF and GTWF and I start with 14 si it's more like

18 base + 6 enchantment (potential for 10) +2 tome +3 exceptional + 1 human adaptability=30 base +the rest =46

[Krag]

erm, haven't you ever seen any High AC Battle Clerics ? :)

I m aware of the concept of High AC Clerics but I don't call them Battleclerics.

[Kintro]

2)human
S 14
D 8
C 14
I 8
W 18
Ch 8

he will use khopseh and tower shield the level ups are gonna be 3 STR 2 WIS so in the end he will be 2 DC behind a regular cleric meaning he can kill with melee and still cast reliability


If you're going to split your level ups between two stats you should start with them more even. For instance if you start with 16 wis and 16 str you could put 4 level ups in wis and 1 in str ending up with the same 17 str and 20 wis but with 2 spare build points for an extra point in con. Everyone loves more con.

[Natashaelle]

I m aware of the concept of High AC Clerics but I don't call them Battleclerics.

weeelll it's certainly true that very high AC is a particularly religious undertaking in DDO, so that not very many High AC battle clerics also better at mêlée than casting are kicking around in the game :)

[kartos]

OK thanks to all of you I guess I will make all 3 builds and just see what I like the most but I really wanna hear more about high AC battle clerics

[Legohaiden]

Best idea is to NOT roll a "Battle Cleric"


i tried that route... it doesnt end well... even if your a good player.

You will have a hard time getting groups as your not a healer (you'll get into a group then once they find out your not a healer, they kick you)

Your dps will be far lower then that of actuall melee built characters.

Your casting stat will suffer as your putting points into str and con and/or dex to fight with.


If you want to be a battle cleric roll a favored soul. People never expect FvS's to heal anyway :)

[Noctus]

Best idea is to NOT roll a "Battle Cleric"


i tried that route... it doesnt end well... even if your a good player.

You will have a hard time getting groups as your not a healer (you'll get into a group then once they find out your not a healer, they kick you)

Your dps will be far lower then that of actuall melee built characters.

Your casting stat will suffer as your putting points into str and con and/or dex to fight with.


If you want to be a battle cleric roll a favored soul. People never expect FvS's to heal anyway :)



100% contrary to my experience.

FvS and Cleric are the same in a different color. both are expected to heal. every content.

If you "Battlecleric" cant heal and thus sucks its not because of some inherent flaws in the buildtype, but based in it either being a failbuild or the player not having the high necessary multitasking skills necessary for this playstyle. If your character cant perform the core ability of the class it chooses to take the most levels in, he will be rightfully be kicked from groups. - Just like a Barbarian who cant DPS, but only Intimidate+ turtle up.

Battleclerics can heal just the same as Castercleric, and in most situations even better (!), as they dont need to use SP for the offensive part of their combat contribution, and thus have more SP left to heal.

DPS is naturally lower than a pure melee, but pure melees cant soloheal raids .... Its all a tradeoff.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Right...you would think only missing that two DC won't be a big deal, wait until you get to end game tho....you'll miss it.... A LOT!

BC as well as Warchanters, Battle Casters, or what have you are better off being melee focused and dumping DC's or maybe putting a little into melee focus but keeping DC's high as possible. The second scenario doesn't really make you a battle cleric if you are referring to melee DPS terms.

End game is to jacked to think you can be slightly more than vanilla in terms of spell DC's and get away with it....because you really can't.

[Natashaelle]

... it either being a failbuild or the player not having the high necessary multitasking skills necessary for this playstyle.

exactly ;)

[FlyingTurtle]

1:TWF
HB:toughens
3:wep prof:khopesh
6:empower healing
9:ITWF
12:IC slashing
15:GTWF
18:power attack


*cough*

Guys, maybe it's time to stop squabbling about battle clerics and take a look at the proposed build... He's about to make his build with 20 cleric levels and use 6 of 8 feats slots on martial feats.

[erikbozelie]

This discussion will never end.

Dont try to multi-task. this is where lots of warpriests and battle clerics fail.
first off, what do you wish to accomplish with the charactor?

melee? take martial feats and enhancements which grand you melee capability as any good melee-er.
cast? take spell feats and enhancements which grand you good casting ability.
heal? take healing feats and enhancements.

I am not saying to put all feats into it, just the very basic, power atack for melee, empower healing for healer etc.

what is your secondairy job?
same as above, you dont need to be able to do everything even well.

and i personally dont disagree from above, you dont need to be able to multitask everything at the same time,

ask yourself this, what makes this charactor usable for the party?

1h with an shield trying to fill up an melee slot? is failing.
trying to crowed control with 8 wisdom? no go.
the list continues but you get the idea.

and as 3rd... mostly comes healing... most people will tell you this always comes first... i'd tent to disagree.
if you fill up any slot as good as anyone else, you might aswell replace them. and get an main healer.

from level 1~7 there is nothing like an cleric melee-er.
and from 9~15, there is nothing like an cleric nuker.
if they specialize in them.

there are exeptions to everything, and the best at everything is situational.

but making an 14/14/14/14/14/14 build that sucks at everything? might be nice low level, but not in the endgame.

------------------------------------------------------------------
dont get me wrong, there are folks out there that can pull off main and secondairy spots at the same time, but i have seen an rediculas amount of folks failing at it. myself included.

[Natashaelle]

Dont try to multi-task. this is where lots of warpriests and battle clerics fail.

?????

Really !! For more input on this question, just go HERE :

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=202343

[phalaeo]

Your dps will be far lower then that of actuall melee built characters.


Really? How much lower?

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/phalaeo/sara2.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k36/phalaeo/sara.jpg

Not Barb damage for sure, but it's **** decent for still having a Healing Aura and still being able to throw 250HP Heals.

[Natashaelle]

Really? How much lower?

Save your energy -- from the über-elitist point of view, 167 point crits are gimp ones :D

[erikbozelie]

Save your energy -- from the über-elitist point of view, 167 point crits are gimp ones :D

can anyone post an screenshot of an 700 hp dmg crit Blade barier hitting 15 foes?

Edit: also, question... how many do you actually think of all the melee running around... that actually have an solid melee build?

On my main i only noticed about only just 2 on the server so far.
which both said the following:90% of the entire population of melee on this server sucks. we'd take you(thats me), above those anyday.

[jmonty]

Best idea is to NOT roll a "Battle Cleric"


i tried that route... it doesnt end well... even if your a good player.

You will have a hard time getting groups as your not a healer (you'll get into a group then once they find out your not a healer, they kick you)

Your dps will be far lower then that of actuall melee built characters.

Your casting stat will suffer as your putting points into str and con and/or dex to fight with.


i had my dwarf clr pure and focused on casting and healing for a long time, but after i changed him to focus on str and thf he is much more versatile in a lot of content. casting was fairly powerful for a while but in amrath for example, it is more effective to melee.

with as much raid loot as he has it made sense, but he still has room to improve by gaining a bloodstone and min II great ax. the trade off was he lost around 350 sp and has a bit lower dc for spells, but the gain from power attack, a level of fighter and 2 thf feats was significant.

even though this is a straight forward version of a melee cleric it still takes a lot of gear to do well.

dwarf

19 cleric, 1 fighter

stats

str 23 base, +2 tome, +6 enchanted bonus, +2 rage,+1 guild = 34

dex 8 base, +3 tome, +6 enchanted bonus = 17

con 14 base, +2 tome, +2 racial, +6 enchanted bonus, +2 rage = 26

int 8 base, +2 tome = 10

wis 16 base, +3 tome, +1 class, +6 enchanted, = 26

cha 8 base, +2 tome, +2 class, +6 enchanted =18

feats:

empower healing, extend, two handed fighting, improved two handed fighting, maximize, power attack, quicken, toughness

hp 484, sp 1849. [of course, this varies based on gear setup, buffs]

significant gear: lorikk's champion, supreme tyrant greensteel goggles of earth, tharne's goggles, minos legion, lorrik's necklace, head of good fortune, con 6/gfl belt, tumbleweed, ring of thelis, gauntlents of eternity, bracers of the glacier, levik's bracers, dragon touched full plate, full plate of the defender


he doesn't have any really good weapons yet or epic gear but i think this char does well.