Why Drop Rate so horrendous and raids getting more difficult?

[Cleric999]

Why is the drop rate for quality items in raids/quests such as VOD, Littany of Dead, etc and even more so rarely run raids such as Abbot and Titan so horrendous?

Also, what's going to happen after update 7 when raid bosses will be made significantly more difficult since they won't able to be slowed? As a healer should I be expected to have to spend even more money on SP pots, heal scrolls, and rez scrolls?

As one of many examples, I've run same quests such as Littany of Dead 10 times and not get one Tome of Legend, run ADQ2 about 10 times and not even see a Torc amulet drop, and heard about healers running weapons shipment 30 times and not get a bauble. There's also a virtually non-existent PVP system and no guild wars so there's not much else to do but farm the same items that every one else is going for that usually aren't trade-able and/or very rarely drop. I find it insulting that even with the horrendous drop rates, limited scope of activities, firewall being nerfed after update 8, raid bosses not able to be slowed after update 7, not having a character reputation system to know how experienced someone is, and useless in-game support that I wonder if this game is set up to be one extremely tedious grind so more money is spent by players in the DDO store and if the game can actually be considered fun.

[Woundwolf42]

Don't know what to tell you there partner. Sounds like you've already made up your mind. If you don't like it, don't play it. Uninstall and move on.

[Cleric999]

It doesn't seem like Turbine cares and wondering if there is a rational explanation for some of the upcoming changes in terms of raid bosses and lack of changes in terms of drop rates and activities to do within the game. The fact that out of game support takes weeks to reply to paid customers makes me concerned. I shouldn't have to pay real money to buy SP pots in order to heal others when drop rates are horrendous and there's nothing else to do in the game.

[blitzschlag]

waves of exhaustion did not have the slow effect in the past. the raids where still done then.

the droprates are so low to keep the powergamers happy. if the droprates would be any good turbine had to bring way more highlevel content or all the powergaming guys would leave for an asia-grinder game. in the end the motivator of the game (after lets say a year of playing and seeing all thats ingame) is the hunt for special items and the last statpoint that brings your char to a new level.

[platonicx]

Can i have your plat?

[sirgog]

I think raids should be harder in general, and the drop rates should be higher.

It's much more fun, IMO, to run something really tough ten times than it is to run something trivially easy (like the Shroud) fifty times.

[NUDS]

Maybe you should focus on other aspects of the game, such as levelling? The main feature of how MMORPGs work is the fact that everything is a time-sink.

In this case, there are two main time-sinks. The levelling grind and the end-game gear grind.

Personally, I am absolutely burnt out in terms of grinding for gear with a +1 stat upgrade that has a 0.1% drop rate in the same raids over and over again every week. So I know that I won't enjoy raiding.

Therefore, I'm focusing on the levelling aspect of the game and it's working out pretty well so far. The thing is, in this game, with the TR system as well as the practicality unlimited possible class combinations, the potential and lifespan of the levelling time-sink is almost limitless.

This is good for both the company (Long time players = money) and players (Levelling progression/time-sink feels like you are actually achievement something).

So yeah, there are always other aspects of the game you can try to entertain yourself with :)

[Bacab]

Don't know what to tell you there partner. Sounds like you've already made up your mind. If you don't like it, don't play it. Uninstall and move on.

I agree...

Though I think if you played with higher quality players...you would not need to drink SP pots.

[AbsynthMinded]

I agree...

Though I think if you played with higher quality players...you would not need to drink SP pots.

Or managed SP better by allowing others to die as object lessons to learn better survival and self sufficiency.

[Hendrik]

waves of exhaustion did not have the slow effect in the past. the raids where still done then.

the droprates are so low to keep the powergamers happy. if the droprates would be any good turbine had to bring way more highlevel content or all the powergaming guys would leave for an asia-grinder game. in the end the motivator of the game (after lets say a year of playing and seeing all thats ingame) is the hunt for special items and the last statpoint that brings your char to a new level.

LIES!!!!

/poke

;)

[magnus1]

waves of exhaustion did not have the slow effect in the past. the raids where still done then.


so what about the feat hamstring? is that gonna be nerfed too? because it works really well against the end bosses in TOD and Shroud.

[blitzschlag]

so what about the feat hamstring? is that gonna be nerfed too? because it works really well against the end bosses in TOD and Shroud.

isn't hamstring just movement speed?

[Cam_Neely]

Why is the drop rate for quality items in raids/quests such as VOD, Littany of Dead, etc and even more so rarely run raids such as Abbot and Titan so horrendous?
Personally I think the drop rates are a touch to high. These 'rare' and 'end game' loot can be had with minimal farming compared to other mmos imo. If most end game players have it, its not really rare


Also, what's going to happen after update 7 when raid bosses will be made significantly more difficult since they won't able to be slowed? As a healer should I be expected to have to spend even more money on SP pots, heal scrolls, and rez scrolls?
I guess if that is your first thought, and play style, then go for it. Im sure the parties would not mind. Personally as opposed to suggesting buying your way out of it as the first step to success, I would suggest that new tactics be applied, possibly on easier difficulties until the group is geared up more, and has better knowledge and tactics.


There's also a virtually non-existent PVP system and no guild wars so there's not much else to do but farm the same items that every one else is going for that usually aren't trade-able and/or very rarely drop. IMO I think that Turbine cant afford to ignore the PvP system forever, as I'm sure the devs see the implementation of a competitive PvP (read E-Peen) system as a gold mine to encourage people to by drop pots, and other accessories from the cash shop. LOTRO has an interesting system, which im sure has been brought up at meetings. On the other hand, the clientele it might bring in could drive a large amount of VIP and premium players away.

[dkyle]

isn't hamstring just movement speed?

There's a bug for certain creatures that any reduction to their movement speed also reduces their attack speed. Hamstring, Tendon Slice, and Waves were all only ever supposed reduce movement speed, but thanks to this bug, they also reduce attack speed.

I'm not sure if they're fixing the movement speed = attack speed bug. They may just be working around it by making bosses immune to movement speed reduction.

I'm all for giving casters more to do at endgame, but this was too much impact for too little effort. Any boost needs to be carefully designed, not be the result of an accident.

[magnus1]

isn't hamstring just movement speed?


ever see hamstring used on harry?it slows his attack speed down to a crawl. works the same on the boss in tod(cant remember his name). and i would like to know if my feats are getting nerfed also. i dont accomplish this with a weapon that gives you a percentage chance to hamstring i do it with the feat hamstring. these are the only 2 monsters in the game that i have ever seen hamstring work on except my toons in which it works all too frequently!

[blitzschlag]

ever see hamstring used on harry?it slows his attack speed down to a crawl. works the same on the boss in tod(cant remember his name). and i would like to know if my feats are getting nerfed also. i dont accomplish this with a weapon that gives you a percentage chance to hamstring i do it with the feat hamstring. these are the only 2 monsters in the game that i have ever seen hamstring work on except my toons in which it works all too frequently!

no, havent seen it.

i just remember getting hamstrung in desert frequently and thought its just a movement debuff. i rarely melee then because i use to farm on my casters...

[Therigar]

OP asks good questions even if some element of the post suggest a closed mindset.

Why are drop rates low? Why are raids getting more difficult?

I'm going to start with the second of these.

I'm not sure raids are more difficult. To the contrary, I think the game itself is getting easier, raids included. I think it has to do with the overall knowledge and experience with DDO and the fact that the game doesn't really evolve. There are very few examples of quests or areas that went away because the problem was solved. Instead, quests remain from launch and, while often tweaked, are overall much easier now. And, new quests are simply piled on top of the existing ones.

That is all good if you are relatively new to the game as it has a sort of start to finish story line feel and gives a "you won the game" gloss to DDO. But, DDO doesn't really have a "you won" aspect (unless you buy the TR completionist bit). You never get to a point where your character is simply done with its adventuring life and has nothing to do.

So you end up with a situation where you've done something so many times that it becomes just trivial. You have all the right gear, you know the map and monster locations, you know the traps and so on. The way to keep these too often repeated quests "fresh" is to bump up the difficulty. And the effect of this is that they really are harder, maybe, for new players but they are not any more challenging than they were for those that have been around the game long enough to have cycled through them one or two times. That would be most everyone who has been playing more than a couple of months.

So, while it may be true that the quests have been beefed up I don't think that makes them any harder. And raids are no different.

So, that brings me to the drop rate question.

When the game itself has gotten to the point where you have experienced every quest and know them pretty much inside and out there is nothing left to do except grind for some piece of uber loot. You do this in anticipation of the next update when a new quest or raid will be introduced and with the expectation that you will need that uber loot to be part of the "in crowd." Never mind that the tactics to beat the quest have likely been worked out by beta testers who also play on your live server. The fact that they know the quest and will run it on elite within minutes of release isn't the point. The point is that you know you won't be in that group unless you have the uber leet gear.

So you grind. Low drop rates keep you playing when the rest of the content has become repetative and boring and trivially easy for you. You play because you have to keep pace with the "Joneses" or get left behind when new content does come out.

How to fix it?

Well, you can be like me and simply not try to keep up with the Joneses. Just quest as you want, when you want, playing various concept and flavor characters for no reason other than it is fun for you. You can build ignoring the uber loot requirements and then you are just happy if you ever get some of it.

Playing that way means you don't farm quests for loot and that in turn means that the low drop rate is immaterial to you.

The other way to fix it is to power down the game. Make it so that players do not need (or at least do not feel as if they need) the gear in order to succeed. One example is the rampant "must have boss beaters" requirement for Shroud runs. It seems nobody is aware that we use to routinely beat the Shroud without those boss beaters.

Now, I don't think this will ever happen (to power down the game). We are already committed to the overpowering of the game and it seems to be what a large segment of the players want. And a part of the way to keep you playing in this power game environment is to keep you farming for the uber loot.

That buys time for development so that updates can take place and new, higher difficulty level, quests can be added. Which drives the need for power. Which drives the demand for new quests. Which repeats over and over and over. Which seems to be what most of the players want.

Me, I gave up trying to keep up. I play for the enjoyment of the game and ignore the power aspect. I don't have most of the top gear and I don't feel that I'm missing a lot.

Maybe I would be if I were someone else. But for me, I'm not. It is a matter of perspective and personal want/need/happiness.

So, I don't farm for tapestries and don't care if I have a Minos or not. I don't farm for rare drops and don't care if I have Icy Raiments or Torc or whatever. And that is alright for me.

But, for others I suspect that the over powering of gear drives the need to increase quest difficulty and the increased quest difficulty drives the need to farm for more powerful gear and the need to have more powerful gear drives the need to farm and the need to farm drives the low drop rate and the low drop rate buys time to develop yet more difficult (new) content and new content drives the need for over powered gear. While not quite a continuing circle it has the same effect -- gear drives quest difficulty drives gear.

[Belwaar]

Stop running quests on Casual ;)

[Fomori]

ever see hamstring used on harry?it slows his attack speed down to a crawl. works the same on the boss in tod(cant remember his name). and i would like to know if my feats are getting nerfed also. i dont accomplish this with a weapon that gives you a percentage chance to hamstring i do it with the feat hamstring. these are the only 2 monsters in the game that i have ever seen hamstring work on except my toons in which it works all too frequently!
The hamstring thing is a bug and is not intended to slow attack speed. It is only supposed to slow movement.

[SINIBYTE]

The longer the time sink, the longer you grind, the longer you grind, the more money they make. Welcome to MMO's.

[MeliCat]

played for a year and have done a large number of VODs. i have seen tharnes goggles in chests only 2x during that time.

slink walks in and sees 4 goggles per chest on a regular basis.

meh. just life.

and life would be boring if we *always* knew that we were *definitely* going to get what we wanted.

[Surcus1]

I don`t think the drop rates are bad...it is quite good that we have to struggle a bit to get the best gear.

That being said, I am sure Titan is bugged...that chest hasn`t given me more than one or two items in around 60 runs:) Hope that gets fixed.

[rest]

lol @ saying raids are getting harder because waves won't stop bosses from moving. Kinda like when shroud pt4 was bugged and there was a huge outcry from all the terrible players who used it as a crutch to complete that raid.

As long as waves still functions to slow down movement speed (i'm looking at you, maraliths and succubus chick in the big top) and still gives a -6 penalty to strength, it's still useful.

[r3dl4nce]

For raids, reach the 20th completion and you have a great probability to get the item you want.

Otherwise, farm.

If you don't think farm is fun, don't play DDO.

[sirgog]

Personally I think the drop rates are a touch to high. These 'rare' and 'end game' loot can be had with minimal farming compared to other mmos imo. If most end game players have it, its not really rare



Comparing DDO to WoW:

WoW - A Tier 9 geared player, Fred, goes into 10-player mode Icecrown Citadel (a Tier 10 raid) and the group battles on for three hours, downing ten bosses. 20 items drop as loot, and on average, Fred can expect to win two of them. Two medium to big upgrades in three hours, in a raid with a one week lockout timer. They may not have got the exact items they wanted, but what they did get will still be a pretty good consolation prize.

DDO - A new-ish toon runs Shroud on every timer for two months. At the end of it, they have 20 completions and ~5 Large Scales - enough for one cleansed dual-shard item, i.e. one big upgrade.

I'll let you ask yourself which is the bigger grind. The main item grinds in WoW are for Legendary items, which are somewhat like Red Dragon Scale armor in DDO, but harder to get.



The longer the time sink, the longer you grind, the longer you grind, the more money they make. Welcome to MMO's.

The quicker you feel you've totally completed one adventure pack, the more quickly you feel the urge to buy the next. Welcome to F2P. Hence the newer packs being much, much easier to get a specific Epic item made in than the Desert or even the VONs.

[Kza]

I think raids should be harder in general, and the drop rates should be higher.

It's much more fun, IMO, to run something really tough ten times than it is to run something trivially easy (like the Shroud) fifty times.

I agree to half. I think n good as is but make h and e harder and more xp and boost lootdrop on em. winwin for all imho.

[Fomori]

While not quite a continuing circle it has the same effect -- gear drives quest difficulty drives gear.
I feel this is very poor game design. Sure you keep the very high end players happy but what you end up doing is turning the beginning game into "the grind". It also polarizes your playerbase into min/max vs casual and continues to perpetuate the powercreep.

What should be done is to create content that is focused on the game as a whole to be balances against itself, not 'what would player x with the best of everything do'. People are going to outpace content and will be clamoring for 'give me more'. Its going to happen. You need to make a decision to; a) keep them happy at the expense of powercreep, b) give them content tailored specifically to them to keep them busy, c) continue on with your plan and let them leave or stay but not kowtowing to them.

a) is the short term solution because once you capitulate then you've opened the floodgate for more expectations.

b) is plausible but the content has to be; difficult enough to where there is failure, above board rewards for success, and accept that some people will not be able to complete it. Its really for 'the best of the best only' This is what I think Epic should have been. The downside is that once you go down this path as a player the regular game is nothing. Thus the players need to understand they are being given a sandbox all their own but dont expect the regular sandbox to conform to them anymore.

c) this is a hard decision to make as it hurts the pocketbook directly when players stop playing. However if you have great content and the game means something playing from beginning - end then its not going to matter. There will be new players that dont feel intimidated at starting fresh and not all players will leave if there is replayability withtout massive grind.

[grodon9999]

The longer the time sink, the longer you grind, the longer you grind, the more money they make. Welcome to MMO's.

I don't agree with this at all. When a character is "done" then it's time to roll another toon or TR said toon and play the stuff over again. Another toon gives Turbine chances to make more DDOStore cash because people like myself buy stuff like the ubber-big collectables and ingredients bags as well as tomes, heart of wood, XP pots, etc . . . Stuff like that you only buy once per character or as aids to level up, it would behoove Turbine to encourage us to make as many toons as possible so we'd buy these little knick-knacks.

Right now, it's SO much work to get a toon "finished" that I simple don't want more than 5 characters. It's too much work. What money does Turbine make from me playing my capped fighter grinding raids for the 40th completions to get what I'm looking for? And forget about epics, I'm guessing I'll need 50+ Dragons a toon to get those stupid shards. I have three capped melees, I'm not going to bother rolling any more because it's just too much work to get them good.

Stuff shouldn't be free either but a balance is needed. The 20th end-rewards should list every piece of raid gear and there some kind of 20th reward should be made available for Epic completions. I like Green steel crafting because you can see something tangible each run, we need something similar to that.

[crazy7381]

People complain consistently oh I have ran such and such a milliionth to the tenth power times and havent seen yadda yadda nuff said. Here is my 2 cents I think the more you run the drop rate should decrease (just like xp does)there is a reason why they are rare.

Why have a cookie cutter game now I know all the power gamers will be like noooo not a reduced drop rate how will I live. Well the answer TR and move on.

If it drops good if not dont get frustrated it is almost like gambling. On the side note of harder raid bosses BRING IT!

[grodon9999]

For raids, reach the 20th completion and you have a great probability to get the item you want.

Otherwise, farm.

If you don't think farm is fun, don't play DDO.

SO your solution to a dumb situation is to just **** and take it instead of lobbying for some constructive change?

[Legohaiden]

The tougher the battle, the sweeter the victory.

it doesnt even matter what quest it is... they should all be tougher by about 30% if not more.

Ran STK on Elite solo on my lvl 6 Drow Fighter... made it all the way to the boss, and had about a 25minute battle with him. Had to run around, jump and dodge to drink pots while fighting him around the room. (no hireling healer... thats not solo)

Eventually by a very narrow margin (and a 60 stack of pots) i took him down. That victory felt extreamly epic. why? not because he was a particularly tough boss (any group can pretty much take him down) Because it was a tough fought victory. Those are the only ones that count.

[grodon9999]

c) this is a hard decision to make as it hurts the pocketbook directly when players stop playing. However if you have great content and the game means something playing from beginning - end then its not going to matter. There will be new players that dont feel intimidated at starting fresh and not all players will leave if there is replayability withtout massive grind.


Here's the thing . . . DDO has GREAT content. There are many awesome missions that for the most part people don't play. My theory on this is because the game is too grindy, it takes so much time to get a toon good that your really don't have time to stop and smell the flowers. There are only so many gaming hours in a day and in a game with this much grind you are literally wasting time not working towards a goal.

[grodon9999]

On the side note of harder raid bosses BRING IT!

I'll take SMARTER raid bosses and more intelligent raids. Turbine's idea of harder is just double the HP and toss on more blanket immunities.

[Legohaiden]

I'll take SMARTER raid bosses and more intelligent raids. Turbine's idea of harder is just double the HP and toss on more blanket immunities.

Im with you man.


Where are the bosses that require timing and precision to kill? The bosses that need to be hit by specific spell types to crack magical sheilds so melee can then do damage... only to have the boss cast the sheild again.

Where are the bosses that grease casters, or go after healers. Intelligent AI = Tough battles.

[sirgog]

Im with you man.


Where are the bosses that require timing and precision to kill? The bosses that need to be hit by specific spell types to crack magical sheilds so melee can then do damage... only to have the boss cast the sheild again.

Where are the bosses that grease casters, or go after healers. Intelligent AI = Tough battles.

Or even, the boss that casts Meteor Swarm or Firewall, recognises that you didn't take much damage because of your Fire Resist, and so casts Greater Dispelling, then tries the fire nuke again.

[magnus1]

I don't agree with this at all. When a character is "done" then it's time to roll another toon or TR said toon and play the stuff over again. Another toon gives Turbine chances to make more DDOStore cash because people like myself buy stuff like the ubber-big collectables and ingredients bags as well as tomes, heart of wood, XP pots, etc . . . Stuff like that you only buy once per character or as aids to level up, it would behoove Turbine to encourage us to make as many toons as possible so we'd buy these little knick-knacks.

Right now, it's SO much work to get a toon "finished" that I simple don't want more than 5 characters. It's too much work. What money does Turbine make from me playing my capped fighter grinding raids for the 40th completions to get what I'm looking for? And forget about epics, I'm guessing I'll need 50+ Dragons a toon to get those stupid shards. I have three capped melees, I'm not going to bother rolling any more because it's just too much work to get them good.

Stuff shouldn't be free either but a balance is needed. The 20th end-rewards should list every piece of raid gear and there some kind of 20th reward should be made available for Epic completions. I like Green steel crafting because you can see something tangible each run, we need something similar to that.


so maybe you can explain how to TR a toon when hearts arent a drop? i refuse to give turbine any money until they can fix all the many,many problems this game has.I will not list the many problems,just look at the forum titles to get your own list. if they used just some of the reported millions they are making off this game to fix the problems it would be in my interest to pay for a few things. but when the only option is to pay, then i say no way!!! as it stands now the new wave for turbine is to see how much you will pay for a defective game. and running away never fixed anything so i will stay and complain until the fix is in!

they got a new sugar daddy(wb) and are making money hand over fist but we still aren't seeing any fixes to the gigantic problemsthis game posesses, why?

[grodon9999]

so maybe you can explain how to TR a toon when hearts arent a drop? i refuse to give turbine any money until they can fix all the many,many problems this game has.I will not list the many problems,just look at the forum titles to get your own list. if they used just some of the reported millions they are making off this game to fix the problems it would be in my interest to pay for a few things. but when the only option is to pay, then i say no way!!! as it stands now the new wave for turbine is to see how much you will pay for a defective game. and running away never fixed anything so i will stay and complain until the fix is in!

they got a new sugar daddy(wb) and are making money hand over fist but we still aren't seeing any fixes to the gigantic problemsthis game posesses, why?

Holy chaotic-rant Batman! What does this have to do with the game being too-grindy?

[SINIBYTE]

I'll take SMARTER raid bosses and more intelligent raids. Turbine's idea of harder is just double the HP and toss on more blanket immunities.

I'm amused that Harry just stands there and watches while his minions try to take us out. Then he stands there as we box in his lieutenant and prepare for the fight... THEN allows us to box HIM in... even though he has wings. At least Suulo is smart enough to fly away and throw some fireballs from his bird-perch.

...as an example of dumb AI.

[Lissyl]

... firewall being nerfed after update 8...

Wait, what? What did I miss?

[grodon9999]

I'm amused that Harry just stands there and watches while his minions try to take us out. Then he stands there as we box in his lieutenant and prepare for the fight... THEN allows us to box HIM in... even though he has wings. At least Suulo is smart enough to fly away and throw some fireballs from his bird-perch.

...as an example of dumb AI.

Which is why they all need a zillion HP and blanket immunities to present some kind of a challenge. Smarter AI means you can't get rid of some of the stupidity regarding this.

[LordPiglet]

Sunday, I ran and epic DQ, with 3 or 4 shards and 2 or 3 named drops.

My tr ran a dq, on normal. 7 named drops including 2 torqs, and a Marilith Chain.

Last night, Reavers Fate has 2 dreamsplitters drop (only thing to drop).

Sometimes, the drops flow, sometimes they don't.

[SINIBYTE]

Sunday, I ran and epic DQ, with 3 or 4 shards and 2 or 3 named drops.

My tr ran a dq, on normal. 7 named drops including 2 torqs, and a Marilith Chain.

Last night, Reavers Fate has 2 dreamsplitters drop (only thing to drop).

Sometimes, the drops flow, sometimes they don't.

Yeh drops are weird like that. I ran a TOD, nothing dropped. Couple days later, we got both bard rings, 2 nyokos, and the pale master ring. So, one run gets us nothing, then a few days later we get 5.

[Irinis]

I think raids should be harder in general, and the drop rates should be higher.

It's much more fun, IMO, to run something really tough ten times than it is to run something trivially easy (like the Shroud) fifty times.

That's what elite is for. When elite is a cakewalk for your group, add some puggers.

But the number of wholly skunked raids has been higher in the last few months since update 6, anecdotally.

[DragonMageT]

I'm amused that Harry just stands there and watches while his minions try to take us out. Then he stands there as we box in his lieutenant and prepare for the fight... THEN allows us to box HIM in... even though he has wings. At least Suulo is smart enough to fly away and throw some fireballs from his bird-perch.

...as an example of dumb AI.

Or even a teleport of the casters / healers in Part 4, he teleports people in Part 5 why not part 4.

I say a good timed teleport of a caster or healer in Part 4 right to him, just as the blades are coming in.
Oh what fun that would be.

[Cam_Neely]

Comparing DDO to WoW:

WoW - A Tier 9 geared player, Fred, goes into 10-player mode Icecrown Citadel (a Tier 10 raid) and the group battles on for three hours, downing ten bosses. 20 items drop as loot, and on average, Fred can expect to win two of them. Two medium to big upgrades in three hours, in a raid with a one week lockout timer. They may not have got the exact items they wanted, but what they did get will still be a pretty good consolation prize.

DDO - A new-ish toon runs Shroud on every timer for two months. At the end of it, they have 20 completions and ~5 Large Scales - enough for one cleansed dual-shard item, i.e. one big upgrade.

I'll let you ask yourself which is the bigger grind. The main item grinds in WoW are for Legendary items, which are somewhat like Red Dragon Scale armor in DDO, but harder to get.
Well if we are looking at lowest common denominators, then lets compare DDO to Rappelz, a F2P game

Rappelz - not using cash shop experience boosters to gain a level around end game (lv 150) takes about 35 hours of no break grouping. Gaining an angle or similar end game pet(comparable to a dual shard GS item, expected to get into end game groups) you need to grind an empty angel card, which can very conservatively be between 50 and 75 hours of farming mobs. That e-card then has a 2-4% chance of taming an angel, where a fail breaks it and you have to refarm the card.

DDO-See above

Still look at my original post. For a moderate player, over the course of time, a GS item and other raid loot is fairly easy to get, run a few raids and farm a bit, and you have a pretty solid gear set.

I +1 to everyone that said more intelligent bosses is better then harder (more HP) bosses. Harry in part five is mind numbing, he just stands there with no chance of beating a properly prepared party (on normal, pretty much any group of 16+ players). Even something where at 50% he teleports would break up the auto attack

[Therigar]

I feel this is very poor game design. Sure you keep the very high end players happy but what you end up doing is turning the beginning game into "the grind". It also polarizes your playerbase into min/max vs casual and continues to perpetuate the powercreep.

What should be done is to create content that is focused on the game as a whole to be balances against itself, not 'what would player x with the best of everything do'. People are going to outpace content and will be clamoring for 'give me more'. Its going to happen. You need to make a decision to; a) keep them happy at the expense of powercreep, b) give them content tailored specifically to them to keep them busy, c) continue on with your plan and let them leave or stay but not kowtowing to them.

a) is the short term solution because once you capitulate then you've opened the floodgate for more expectations.

b) is plausible but the content has to be; difficult enough to where there is failure, above board rewards for success, and accept that some people will not be able to complete it. Its really for 'the best of the best only' This is what I think Epic should have been. The downside is that once you go down this path as a player the regular game is nothing. Thus the players need to understand they are being given a sandbox all their own but dont expect the regular sandbox to conform to them anymore.

c) this is a hard decision to make as it hurts the pocketbook directly when players stop playing. However if you have great content and the game means something playing from beginning - end then its not going to matter. There will be new players that dont feel intimidated at starting fresh and not all players will leave if there is replayability withtout massive grind.

Regardless, the reality is that the early game has been simplified so that F2P players can jump in and have immediate success. The middle game has remained basically unchanged with only minor tweaks. In the F2P quests the middle game has stayed pretty much the same.

For F2P players the middle game is really about the end game for them.

The grind and end game issues are focused on F2P who shell out for the modules (include premium players here) and the VIP players who have access to all the content. Most raids fit into this last area since right now Tempest Spine is the only F2P raid.

So, grinding is not aimed at the new/weak characters. It is aimed at the power gamers. The segregation between power gamers and casual gamers is immaterial since the F2P can't get into the end game quests anyways. By definition those that do are spending money for the modules and therefore WANT to be part of that game.

Lastly, your final point regarding money is the driver. It is financially silly to move away from a model that is making money. You only change if you are not making (enough) money, there is (more) money to be made by changing or if you are committed to the game for other than monetary reasons.

[azrael4h]

Here's the thing . . . DDO has GREAT content. There are many awesome missions that for the most part people don't play. My theory on this is because the game is too grindy, it takes so much time to get a toon good that your really don't have time to stop and smell the flowers. There are only so many gaming hours in a day and in a game with this much grind you are literally wasting time not working towards a goal.

Actually, I'd say it's time/value for the most part. 3 Barrel Cove is a good example, it has some very nice quests, and is overall one of my favorite areas that I picked up when I first started. However, I doubt I'd bother running it, because quite frankly it's faster to run through Deleras and Necro 1 a few times on Elite to get through to level 7-8, at which point it's Necro 2/Tempest Spine. The new Devil Assault raid will likely make the 4-6 region even more trivial to get through quickly. The faster to the mid-levels, the faster to some of the best content. Though I love stuff like Gwylan's or Tear as well, and they give good enough xp that I always fit them in.

As far as grindy, DDO is nowhere near as grindy as a Korean MMO. There, you will spend hours killing foxes because that is basically the entirety of the quests: kill x fozzles. Kill enough fozzles, get a widget. Get enough good widgets to survive killing enough fozzles in a tougher area to get better widgets to survive killing enough fozzles in a tougher area to get better widgets.

[grodon9999]

Actually, I'd say it's time/value for the most part. 3 Barrel Cove is a good example, it has some very nice quests, and is overall one of my favorite areas that I picked up when I first started. However, I doubt I'd bother running it, because quite frankly it's faster to run through Deleras and Necro 1 a few times on Elite to get through to level 7-8, at which point it's Necro 2/Tempest Spine. The new Devil Assault raid will likely make the 4-6 region even more trivial to get through quickly. The faster to the mid-levels, the faster to some of the best content. Though I love stuff like Gwylan's or Tear as well, and they give good enough xp that I always fit them in.

Exactly my point. The Three-Barrel-Cove quests are great but there are better ways to get XP. The question is do you play the game to play the game or do you just plow through stuff to get to cap as faster as possible? For me it depends on the toon, some are more fun to play at all level and when I TR one of my rangers I plan on playing every quest in the game. The fighter I just capped was a little dull so I just wanted to get it over with.



As far as grindy, DDO is nowhere near as grindy as a Korean MMO. There, you will spend hours killing foxes because that is basically the entirety of the quests: kill x fozzles. Kill enough fozzles, get a widget. Get enough good widgets to survive killing enough fozzles in a tougher area to get better widgets to survive killing enough fozzles in a tougher area to get better widgets.

Doesn't matter, just because the Korean MMOs are stupider doesn't make the DDO grind any less stupid.

[phalaeo]

As one of many examples, I've run same quests such as Littany of Dead 10 times and not get one Tome of Legend, run ADQ2 about 10 times and not even see a Torc amulet drop, and heard about healers running weapons shipment 30 times and not get a bauble.


I'm nearing my 40th DQ and still don't have a Torc.
I had to run close to 80 Weapons Shipments before I got a Bauble.

*shrug*

[nayozz]

i got a torc on 2 toons in the first or second run of adq ^^

i actually have 1 arcane out of 3 with it and got it b4 20th (at 20th i picked a green blade)
i actually have 3 divine out of 5 with it and got it b4 the 20th ...

also my cleric monk got it at lvl 14 ^^

8 toons, 4 torcs +1 (got a second one when i soloed on my arcane and couldnt gift it as well as madstone boots)

right now:
4 of them got torc before the 10th trial
arcane nr2 19runs no luck
arcane nr3 7 runs no luck

divine nr4 7 runs no luck
divine nr5 12 runs no luck
-------------------------------

to have a nice tr xperience i suggest: torc + tier 2 concordant opp full sp
totally optional: tier 3 concordant, +9reflex gs item if evasion build

p.s. the ONLY tr i played at all, he leveled faster than non tr players and WITH NO NAMED ITEMS AT ALL cept minos legens ^^

i had people call me and asking 4 group telling me they saw in guild how fast my lvl raised, or non guild players remembering how much ton of xp they made and coming back for more ^^ so... named items are totally optionals...
you may want just to collect a gs weapon if melee, or tier 2 sp gs item + torc ... but really nothing helps as a static teammate who can help you better than an hireling when you die, or just to clear half the dungeon cutting in half the time :P

i would prefer a mindlike static teammate anyday instead of a named piece ^^ 2 people is ok 3 is excellent... 4-6 adds to the fun but not required, usually if you are 3 good players can afford to take some noobs and still run smoothly you will only lose the 10%xp diehard bonus when they will die in the first room of the quest, from a leftover monster they insisted on killing when the rest of the party just kept going on...

[Crystalizer]

i dont think you can consider a raid too hard with a single spell nerf, it basically means that relying on that spell wasn't such a good idea. also the droping ratio was as several other players said reduced to make hardcore gamers happy, anyway high-end mmos content is ever dedicated to hardcore grind otherwise many players just leave the game since they don't satisfy their achievement needs. you can play ddo as casual but dont expect the best items to drop straight, sounds quite obvious...

[Frebby]

So, grinding is not aimed at the new/weak characters. It is aimed at the power gamers. The segregation between power gamers and casual gamers is immaterial since the F2P can't get into the end game quests anyways. By definition those that do are spending money for the modules and therefore WANT to be part of that game.

I've been f2p for 7 months, I have vale, necro 4, gianthold, sentinels, and devils of shavarath. I plan on staying f2p and I'll eventually have every module, or atleast the ones that are good. Demon sands, red fens, devils assault to name a few more that I want.

I have to split my time between grinding for favor and grinding for gear. I have a single lvl 20 that I'm grinding some goodies for, this leaves me very little time to level other characters.

Even if I was p2p I don't see a person grinding uber gear for more then 3-5 characters at a time in less then half a year(?).

[Junts]

I've been f2p for 7 months, I have vale, necro 4, gianthold, sentinels, and devils of shavarath. I plan on staying f2p and I'll eventually have every module, or atleast the ones that are good. Demon sands, red fens, devils assault to name a few more that I want.

I have to split my time between grinding for favor and grinding for gear. I have a single lvl 20 that I'm grinding some goodies for, this leaves me very little time to level other characters.

Even if I was p2p I don't see a person grinding uber gear for more then 3-5 characters at a time in less then half a year(?).

That depends on the characters; since epic seals and shards are bound to account, playing multiple characters increases how fast they're all equipped, as long as they aren't competing for the same loot.