No update on Warchanter 2 yet?

[Angelus_dead]

I'm surprised that I haven't seen an adjustment to the Song of Recklessness from Warchanter II yet. The current version (+5% doublestrike -10% fort) seems to have a giant problem:
Warforged will want it up all the time, but other races will only want it for situations where they know they'll be basically safe from enemy attacks.

So, let's rename it from Song of Recklessness to March of Robotic Overlords...?

[Trillea]

So, let's rename it from Song of Recklessness to March of Robotic Overlords...?

What you DON'T realize is that the Lord of Blades's personal bard was the composer.. ;)

[Bacab]

I like this song...

It gives WF a defensive Advantage over Half-Orcs for certain fights.

Plus it makes intimi-tanks more important...and threat tanks more important.

IF the fleshy melees want the song...they need to be really careful...baisically it makes "roles" important again...

Though I gotta admit I do like my "Everyone kill this as fast as we can"(everyone needs good HP for this) type Shrouds and ToDs...while I spam Mass Heal lol.

[Irinis]

Well, WF needed an advantage now that HOs are the biggest and baddest. So I don't see the devs changing this even though it will make most pugs even more hellish than they already are.

[Krag]

My WF bard approves of the new song.
...

Seriously though I would think twice before giving WF any more advantages than they already possess.

[shadowhop]

I think that a class pre simply should not only be good for one race, especially not for a race that everyone already "should" take if they are making an arcane(i have a dwarven arcane and enjoying it).

[Crinos]

My WF bard approves of the new song.
...

Seriously though I would think twice before giving WF any more advantages than they already possess.

Agreed.

I really don't understand why the potential overpowerdness of Half Orcs has seen such huge attention, but this imbalance in favor of an already overpowered race has been largely ignored.

[SteeleTrueheart]

While this is the first example, Eladrin has stated he is interested in bringing more fort reducing game elements into play. There will be other feats/enhancements/spells that will reduce fort and this will allow even the master race to be critted in time. For now it is just another perk of WF.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

While this is the first example, Eladrin has stated he is interested in bringing more fort reducing game elements into play. There will be other feats/enhancements/spells that will reduce fort and this will allow even the master race to be critted in time. For now it is just another perk of WF.

They actually said that as far back as GH, the first time we say 100% fort items dropping in large numbers and a lot of people were commenting on WF 125% fort.

As a cleric/fvs it makes me nervous. But it could be interesting...300hp melee watch out!

[Dylos_Moon]

I'm surprised that I haven't seen an adjustment to the Song of Recklessness from Warchanter II yet. The current version (+5% doublestrike -10% fort) seems to have a giant problem:
Warforged will want it up all the time, but other races will only want it for situations where they know they'll be basically safe from enemy attacks.

Like when they are wearing armor with small guild augment slots to make up for the fort loss?

anyone with a level 25 guild and armor or shield with a small augment slot can have enough fort to use the song at all times, I wonder why no one has brought this up yet.

[Aegapae]

As a cleric/fvs it makes me nervous. But it could be interesting...300hp melee watch out!

450 hp non-melee watch out too, unfortunately. All it would take would be 2-3 crits in an epic and bam! Dead.

All "improvements" like this do is increase the need for more astronomical amounts of hitpoints that we already have an overly astronomical amount of need for, and prevent certain classes that currently enjoy melee on the squishy side from being viable at all... including most Warchanters and ALL Elves and Drow. There's a point at which pushing minmax takes all the fun out of a game and I really hope the development stops before that point.

Speaking as a healer, this direction doesn't just make me nervous. It makes me want to play an 800 hitpoint barbarian/fighter with 5 toughness feats and leave the healing (and the blame) to someone else.

[BlackSteel]

All "improvements" like this do is increase the need for more astronomical amounts of hitpoints that we already have an overly astronomical amount of need for, and prevent certain classes that currently enjoy melee on the squishy side from being viable at all... including most Warchanters and ALL Elves and Drow. There's a point at which pushing minmax takes all the fun out of a game and I really hope the development stops before that point.



but the bard doesnt HAVE to sing the song, and the recipients of the song HAVE the ability to cancel it at will as well. Personally I like the idea of this song alot (havent got to play with it yet).

this song is about the only thing, in my eyes, that will keep WF still viable. (still TR'ing into a half orc anyway) About the only thing I would change is to make it single target only instead of AoE, just like Inspire Heroism. That way only the people that ask for it will recieve it, and no healer will have to worry about the low HP idiot that didnt notice the song on their buff bar.

[Diyon]

I'd like to note that the downsides to this are relatively well mitigated on characters with ridiculous healing amp and someone tossing some sort of mass healing in the group.

[Aerendil]

If you use an intimitank you'll be fine.
Song of Recklessness has no effect/cancels upon CE or any defensive stance, so the tank won't suffer any fortification penalties. So as long as he or she can keep hate on themselves, it's a boost to all other melee.

It's just in situations where you have multiple enemies or no proper tank where this may prove a little dangerous.


*edit* - this may actually bring proper aggro control / crowd control to light, if our super-characters are suddenly... a bit fragile.
Having a proper tank, and possibly even a designated off-tank (for adds), as well as someone on crowd control, could change quite a few end-game quests/raids/etc.

[Voldomar]

Don't know why they are messing up with fortification.

For fleshies this song could be mildly annoying if played before combat ( buff- buff-clicky-inspire courage-song of Recklessness-hit defensive stance- buff..) or a potential "disaster" if played in the middle of the action ( if you don't realize what's going on / don't have time to waste hitting defensive stace AND power attack back )

Non wf/800hp meele toons grabbing aggro will sometimes get the shaft...
Not cool, imho

[Aerendil]

Don't know why they are messing up with fortification.

That seems to be the general consensus, but I'm actually all for it.
Reason being - it adds a bit of danger and suspense to the game that is otherwise often times very predictable.

We've whined and whined about how immunities on mobs suck. Well, it's not really much different for our characters.
Walking around with perma-deathblock, 100% fortification, protection from elements, freedom of movement, and probably a slew of others (immunity to fear, and so on) does make things a little...predictable.
"The super lich just tried to phantasmal killer me. Ha ha ha. What a noob! Roflzomg. Quick, zerg him with our team of ESoS Barbarians!".

To me D&D was always about versatility, ingenuity, and the unpredictability of the diceroll.
DDO has lost a lot of that, and I think adding a bit (and keep in mind, -10% fort isn't going to make you a walking crit-target) of danger may serve to liven this game up.

Bring on the crits, I say!

[dkyle]

If you use an intimitank you'll be fine.

Problem is, intimitanking is pretty buggy and subject to lag issues. It's great when it works, but it can cause a mess when it doesn't. Dramatically increase the squishiness of the rest of the party, and a lagged intimidate could be extremely nasty.

I'm not seeing a situation, in the current game, where the risks of non-100% fort are worth the reward of ~3% more DPS.

[Valindria]

I only played with it one day on lam. In my test I was solo and could not tell the difference (couldn't really tell DS either). I switched to virtuoso after that for a little testing and have not been back to lam since.

The thing that worries me is it is not fun to be killed in 1 hit. My bard already had to give up some things to get full twf. I can not afford to not have 100% fort in hard quests on the off chance that I will be killed in 1 hit.

Overall I was not impressed with either warchanter II songs.

My suggestion would be 5% DS but lowering hp/spell points/saves similar to a paladin who equips a chaos weapon.

[Noctus]

I'm not seeing a situation, in the current game, where the risks of non-100% fort are worth the reward of ~3% more DPS.


This.

Inspire Recklessness is simply not worth being sung. The impact of the tradeoff is bigger than the gain. :(

[Voldomar]

Bring on the crits, I say!

End game/elite combat log:
"You were killed by random death"
Release your spirit and resurrect?

Could be funny. For the first time or two...
In the end, change like this one will hurt (pun intended?) ;)


Yeah, immunities suck. Unfortunately, as things stand now, they are a necessary evil




Inspire Recklessness is simply not worth being sung. The impact of the tradeoff is bigger than the gain. :(

This one also

[voodoogroves]

This.

Inspire Recklessness is simply not worth being sung. The impact of the tradeoff is bigger than the gain. :(

Dunno. I plan on singing it bunches but warning first. Kinda like "stand by me if you want it, don't be here or cancel it yourself if you don't".

[WestportStan]

Dunno. I plan on singing it bunches but warning first. Kinda like "stand by me if you want it, don't be here or cancel it yourself if you don't".

I'm not too worried about it. It's not like people hang around for the songs anyhow.

[Angelus_dead]

While this is the first example, Eladrin has stated he is interested in bringing more fort reducing game elements into play.
Yes, that was stated, but effects which subtract a number from the players' Fortification are a bad way to do it, and attaching such an effect to an AOE buff song is even worse.

[Angelus_dead]

The thing that worries me is it is not fun to be killed in 1 hit. My bard already had to give up some things to get full twf. I can not afford to not have 100% fort in hard quests on the off chance that I will be killed in 1 hit.
That's a problem that arose as a consequence of the design flaw of including 100% Fortification for so long. If mid/high level players hadn't been 100% immune to critical hits for years, the base damage of monster attacks would not have been raised to what it is.

If it were up to me, I wouldn't mess around with inserting subtractive Fortification penalties here and there; I'd globally nerf Fortification, so that if you were an AC 12 Barbarian you'd expect to get critted 10% of the time a mob swings on you. But then also nerf monster damage.

A particular result of such a change is that incoming damage would become more variable, so that healing someone through a dangerous boss fight would be based more on reacting to how much damage occured, instead of just pressing it every X seconds.

[Angelus_dead]

Anyway, a simple change they could do for Song of Recklessnes is to replace -X% Fortification with +Y% incoming physical damage. That would uphold the objective of the song making players more vulnerable to attacks, but in a way that is fair across all races.

[Ashiel_Dragmire]

This makes me wonder, is there a way to "shrug off" buffs? I know there are times when I get a certain buff (generally Rage) and I don't particularly want it. If it isn't an option, maybe Turbine could implement it, and if it is, could someone tell me how to do such a thing?

[Angelus_dead]

This makes me wonder, is there a way to "shrug off" buffs? I know there are times when I get a certain buff (generally Rage) and I don't particularly want it.
You can't do that in general, but Song of Recklessness was specifically given a way for players to dispel it from themselves. Activate Defensive Fighting and the song will be removed from you.

That approach is better than nothing, but it still has drawbacks. The player has to notice, then he has to stop what he's doing and toggle into Defensive Fighting, then probably stop again and toggle into Power Attack again. That loss of attacks for that time might outweigh the potential benefit the Doublestrike could've given...

It would be better if, in addition to that, players could talk to a Bard trainer and learn a specific icon to pre-emptively disable Song of Recklessness on themselves.

Note that all these questions were discussed in-depth in the original U7 bards hint thread. I just made this Lamannia thread to ask if anyone had noticed a change that maybe wasn't publicized yet.

[WestportStan]

Just like that Lady gaga song that gets suck in your head. And there is nothing you wouldn't do to get it out of your head.

Well that's what we do. Our songs are just too catchy.
*shrugs*
sorry

[sirgog]

450 hp non-melee watch out too, unfortunately. All it would take would be 2-3 crits in an epic and bam! Dead.

All "improvements" like this do is increase the need for more astronomical amounts of hitpoints that we already have an overly astronomical amount of need for, and prevent certain classes that currently enjoy melee on the squishy side from being viable at all... including most Warchanters and ALL Elves and Drow. There's a point at which pushing minmax takes all the fun out of a game and I really hope the development stops before that point.

Speaking as a healer, this direction doesn't just make me nervous. It makes me want to play an 800 hitpoint barbarian/fighter with 5 toughness feats and leave the healing (and the blame) to someone else.

In general, crits do less damage than people think.

Case in point - on Khyber a bunch of us did a naked Shroud run (characters can't equip anything except weapons and/or shields). Noone died to Harry's melee damage at all, despite us all having 0-25% fortification. His melee crits on Normal barely do 100 damage.

Suulo on Normal crits for around 110 (and so does Epic Lailat), Horoth normal only crits for about 170 (closer to 220 on Elite). Despite being a total pushover, Epic Velah actually has the harshest crits of the lot, she can break 250.

[Ashiel_Dragmire]

You can't do that in general, but Song of Recklessness was specifically given a way for players to dispel it from themselves. Activate Defensive Fighting and the song will be removed from you.

That approach is better than nothing, but it still has drawbacks. The player has to notice, then he has to stop what he's doing and toggle into Defensive Fighting, then probably stop again and toggle into Power Attack again. That loss of attacks for that time might outweigh the potential benefit the Doublestrike could've given...

It would be better if, in addition to that, players could talk to a Bard trainer and learn a specific icon to pre-emptively disable Song of Recklessness on themselves.

Note that all these questions were discussed in-depth in the original U7 bards hint thread. I just made this Lamannia thread to ask if anyone had noticed a change that maybe wasn't publicized yet.

Thanks A_D

[anynamewilldo]

If the ap cost is reasonable, I'll get this enhancement for the 10hp and probably never play the song. That's a real disappointment for the second tier of a pre that I was excited about.

[thekamurai]

Anyway, a simple change they could do for Song of Recklessnes is to replace -X% Fortification with +Y% incoming physical damage. That would uphold the objective of the song making players more vulnerable to attacks, but in a way that is fair across all races.

This I think is a very reasonable suggestion, and like A_d said it's fair for all races too. I'd really like to see something like this implemented in place of the current version.

[BlackSteel]

Yes, that was stated, but effects which subtract a number from the players' Fortification are a bad way to do it, and attaching such an effect to an AOE buff song is even worse.

thats your opinion, some of us find it intriguing and even useful (gooooooooo WF).

my opinion would be to agree with you on the AoE portion, as that will be an absolute hassle to seperate, worse than the "everyone who wants rage come over here", as Songs spread over a larger area than a rage cast.

[voodoogroves]

Anyway, a simple change they could do for Song of Recklessnes is to replace -X% Fortification with +Y% incoming physical damage. That would uphold the objective of the song making players more vulnerable to attacks, but in a way that is fair across all races.

We could all play humans and remove any racial advantages and disadvantages.

I'm ok with some races begin better at other things. HOWEVER, I completely agree 'forged are near the top. Elves and Drow need more love....humans, halflings, dwarves and the new ones are all ok.

[dkyle]

If the ap cost is reasonable, I'll get this enhancement for the 10hp and probably never play the song. That's a real disappointment for the second tier of a pre that I was excited about.

The cost is 5 AP. 3 for the near-useless "flavor" Inspire Courage: Bravery III enhancement, and 2 for the PrE itself. That's a lot to spend for just 10 HP. I'm thinking I won't be getting it on my Bard. There are a lot of WF Fighters/Barbs in most of my guild's runs, but I suspect that will change when everyone flocks to Half-orc.


We could all play humans and remove any racial advantages and disadvantages.

Having a class feature that benefits certain races more than others is a rather bizarre way to balance advantages and disadvantages. It does little to help WF compete with Half-orc since the WF needs to rely on there being a Bard around, and the primary feature the Bard spends 5 AP on is only useful if he happens to be around WF.

[Angelus_dead]

I'm ok with some races begin better at other things.
Yes, it's good for the Warforged race to have certain advantages.
But benefiting more from Bardic Music should not be one of the Warforged advantage.



the primary feature the Bard spends 5 AP on is only useful if he happens to be around WF.
What if my Bard IS a Warforged? Score!

[voodoogroves]

Yeah but that assumption is based on the way the game "used to be".

Look at the shift in the kinds of items and abilities they are introducing. Check out that Sentinels item that increases fort. Look at a Pale Master in lich form (200% fort). Look at the communication from Turbine about how they plan to introduce more things that alter fortifcation.

Because right now you see it as primarily a racial advantage does not mean it always will be (and in fact, we know it won't be because of what they have plainly stated).

We may not see the full plan, but I bet there are more fortification-changing items / abilities / whatever in the future. Right now it may in fact be more based on race ... but to assume it will always be the case is foolish.

[Angelus_dead]

Yeah but that assumption is based on the way the game "used to
be".
It is also based on the conclusion that adding a bunch of effects for bonuses and penalties to Fortification percentages would be bad.


but to assume it will always be the case is foolish.
The development rate of DDO is too slow for "just wait and see" to be a valid counterpoint. The features released in update 7 will have to stand that way for quite a long time.

Inserting a bad thing now that might become good three to nine months later is not justifiable. The game should be kept in a decent state at all times.

[Aashrym]

Anyway, a simple change they could do for Song of Recklessnes is to replace -X% Fortification with +Y% incoming physical damage. That would uphold the objective of the song making players more vulnerable to attacks, but in a way that is fair across all races.

You have my vote on that. It's the same general concept with less spike damage.

[voodoogroves]

It is also based on the conclusion that adding a bunch of effects for bonuses and penalties to Fortification percentages would be bad.
Would it be subjectively "bad" to some? Sure. It would certainly be different.

The development rate of DDO is too slow for "just wait and see" to be a valid counterpoint. The features released in update 7 will have to stand that way for quite a long time.
Six months or so, maybe 12. There are huge changes in each update. It isn't meant to be a counterpoint, just a statement that I'm ok with the game mechanics shifting, even slowly.


Inserting a bad thing now that might become good three to nine months later is not justifiable. The game should be kept in a decent state at all times.
You say bad, I say different mechanic. There's a new axis to balance and enough people WILL use it to make it useful (and maybe that's only the WF bards out there). It may never be "good" for some, and that's ok with me.

A straight increase damage in-damage out swap would be boring and continue to push the DPS/HP axis only. I guess my problem is I don't like optimizing single-axis games as much as I like paths and options. I'm fine with any power or ability that creates a trade-off.

I'm also fine with neat abilities, some of which will not be generically the best and most optimal option. That doesn't make the game itself bad - it is an important part of keeping the game interesting.

I feel this falls into the category of bastard swords and khopeshes. I can think of many reasons to use it and while it may not be the best in all situations, it certainly is usable enough and I can think of situations where I'd be ok with this bastard sword and not the same khopesh everyone else is swinging. There are plenty of folks who play this that don't want to play just the singular build that has the highest DPS rating at the time.

EDIT: Just want to add that I'm not trying to say "Nuh uh, ur totally worng!!!!1111!" ... yes, I see the downsides to the ability; I just don't think it necessarily needs an overhaul. Enough folks are interested in it as-is that I'd not change it.

[Valindria]

Enough WF are interested in it as-is that I'd not change it.

Fixed for ya.

[voodoogroves]

Fixed for ya.

Heee heee ... is this where I say "Warforged are people too"?

;-)

[maddmatt70]

Angelus I doubt that the proposed warchanter 2 will be changed in this update. Likely this will not be changed until update 8 or perhaps a mid update fix (ex. of this was radiant servant 2 change). Turbine's development wheels are beyond the fix phase for update 7 so any development fixes will not be happening until at best a mid mod bug fix but likely update 8.

I am pretty disappointed with the odd warchanter 2 implementation and not overally impressed with virtuoso or spellsinger at least assuming the songs Virt and spellsinger get are not very overpowered.

[rest]

What if my Bard IS a Warforged? Score!

Mine is :D

I'll play this song every chance I get!

[Krag]

I have an alternative suggestion.
Let Song of Recklessness reduce healing amplification by 20% instead of fortification. I am sure WF will appreciate the change. Healers too.

[Razcar]

Anyway, a simple change they could do for Song of Recklessnes is to replace -X% Fortification with +Y% incoming physical damage. That would uphold the objective of the song making players more vulnerable to attacks, but in a way that is fair across all races.


You have my vote on that. It's the same general concept with less spike damage.

Yes my vote too. Then I would consider using this song if the party agrees.

As Song of Recklessness stands now I will not use it in pugs, where characters might be built weaker than in a guild/channel-runs. In a pug the current implementation seems more for griefing instead of buffing. Sing your song and watch the 192 HP drow ranger go splat a little more often. Eladrin, can you please rename it to Song of Griefingness?

I also agree with the notation that if this is a precursor for a change in the Fortification/Critical Hit system, it is a mistake to implement it in isolation. We will have a weak/dangerous Tier II PrE for who knows how long while the devs are busy with other stuff.

To me it just seems that the devs decided to "Tempestfy" Warchanter. That they thought that Warchanter was too common among bards, and decided to give it a weak Tier II to make other bard PrE's more useful in comparison.

[Valindria]

I have an alternative suggestion.
Let Song of Recklessness reduce healing amplification by 20% instead of fortification. I am sure WF will appreciate the change. Healers too.

I like this idea.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

This.

Inspire Recklessness is simply not worth being sung. The impact of the tradeoff is bigger than the gain. :(

5% double strike, 5% dps? That might be a more interesting trade off.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

This.

Inspire Recklessness is simply not worth being sung. The impact of the tradeoff is bigger than the gain. :(

5% double strike, 5% dps? That might be a more interesting trade off.


From a theme standpoing of course the fort reduction doesn't make any sense anyway. Making me more reckless reduces the effeciveness of a magic item I'm carrying? What would make more sense is if it reduced AC, I'm more reckless, thus of course I get hit more.

[dkyle]

From a theme standpoing of course the fort reduction doesn't make any sense anyway. Making me more reckless reduces the effeciveness of a magic item I'm carrying? What would make more sense is if it reduced AC, I'm more reckless, thus of course I get hit more.

Well, problem with that is people with good DPS dump AC anyway, so there'd be no downside. I think +10% incoming damage is a great alternative. It's a meaningful downside, but it isn't nearly as liable to cause a raid failure from pure luck.

[Angelus_dead]

Making me more reckless reduces the effeciveness of a magic item I'm carrying? What would make more sense is if it reduced AC, I'm more reckless, thus of course I get hit more.
That's the penalty for Song of Recklessness in D&D, and an AC reduction would be a great penalty in DDO if the AC system had already been fixed globally, so that subtracting 10 AC from a standard Barbarian or Cleric causes a substantial increase in vulnerability.

Obviously, DDO's AC system isn't anywhere near that point. At the present time, giving Song of Recklessness an AC penalty would be very bad, because it would only impact those characters with high AC, who are already sacrificing a lot of build effort for a minor advantage. It'd become "Song of Dumping AC is even more attractive", which should be undesirable.

[quityourjobs]

That's the penalty for Song of Recklessness in D&D, and an AC reduction would be a great penalty in DDO if the AC system had already been fixed globally, so that subtracting 10 AC from a standard Barbarian or Cleric causes a substantial increase in vulnerability.

Obviously, DDO's AC system isn't anywhere near that point. At the present time, giving Song of Recklessness an AC penalty would be very bad, because it would only impact those characters with high AC, who are already sacrificing a lot of build effort for a minor advantage. It'd become "Song of Dumping AC is even more attractive", which should be undesirable.

Then the problem is, again, AC. They shouldn't be building more elaborate structures around fort (making it the new AC) while AC is broken past level 10.

[Aashrym]

New release notes and no changes on song of recklessness or song of arcane might. D'oh!

[Merlocke]

If your trying to cancel this effect by using CE/defensive fighting, wouldnt it come right back as soon as you switched PA back on?

[Synthetic]

It says it cancels the effect not suppresses.

[DANTEIL]

This isn't exactly the right thread for my question, but I couldn't find a better Warchanter II thread...


so tonight I reset my enhancements on Lamannia in order to pick up Warchanter II, just to try it out. My level 15 bard is a 13 bard/1 barbarian/1 fighter build (based on tihocan's Warchanter build). My understanding is that one of the benefits of having the level of fighter in that build is that you get martial weapons proficiency as a fighter, for free. If this is true (and I might be wrong), then it seems like there is no reason (since I have a level of fighter) to spend an AP to pick up the Warchanter II Weapon Training Enhancement, which gives you martial weapon proficiency in a single weapon of your choice? Am I right about this?

thanks...


p.s. I hope to try out the new songs soon... I have a screen shot of my Fortification at 90% with Recklessness going...

[sly_1]

On the upside its a fun way to grief! Join some lfm, wait till the party is in some desperate life or death situation, (ie raid boss, epic, etc) then bust out the -10% fort and laugh as the party wipes!

(only partly kidding, as I'm sure ppl will actually do this :P )

[Angelus_dead]

there is no reason (since I have a level of fighter) to spend an AP to pick up the Warchanter II Weapon Training Enhancement, which gives you martial weapon proficiency in a single weapon of your choice? Am I right about this?
Yes, all indications are that Warchanter Weapons are only for pure bards or rogue splashes, not fighter/barb mixes.

[quityourjobs]

Yes, all indications are that Warchanter Weapons are only for pure bards or rogue splashes, not fighter/barb mixes.

They're trying to encourage more pure 20 Warchanters, which is a tough row to hoe, seeing as the spells, skills and capstone gained by staying pure have no real relation to being a better Warchanter.

If they made an alternate capstone ability more suitable for Warchanters, or made WC II give more of the benefits of multiclassing (I'd be happy if it just gave us full BAB), then we'd see more pures.

[Kintro]

Like when they are wearing armor with small guild augment slots to make up for the fort loss?

anyone with a level 25 guild and armor or shield with a small augment slot can have enough fort to use the song at all times, I wonder why no one has brought this up yet.

Noone seems to have commented on this but it's a very good point. Being able to have Inspire Recklessness on at all times should give a bigger DPS boost than the Epic Maralith Chain and plenty of people give up the convenience of Dragontouched for that.

Maybe we'll see some much more colourful/varied raid parties when this song is released.

[Crystalizer]

i dont find that song coherent with the game : so when your character becomes better he starts to debuff the group... this is strictly the opposite role of bards. this has no sense. but looks like some more bard hate for whatever reason.

[Angelus_dead]

Noone seems to have commented on this but it's a very good point. Being able to have Inspire Recklessness on at all times should give a bigger DPS boost than the Epic Maralith Chain and plenty of people give up the convenience of Dragontouched for that.

Maybe we'll see some much more colourful/varied raid parties when this song is released.
That might happen, but it would be bad: It would further break the AC system, because high-AC characters would be punished with comparatively lower DPS.

[Kintro]

That might happen, but it would be bad: It would further break the AC system, because high-AC characters would be punished with comparatively lower DPS.

So what they should really do is add a fortification bonus (5% per tier?) to the defender prestige lines.

[bartosy]

just seems to me that people are a bit spoiled concerning wcII compare it to virtuoso and then come complain about how **** is really is

+10 hp for a d6 class +10 hp is nice no matter how you look at it.

ability to wear marilith chain

5% doublestrike *huge dps boost at the cost of 10% fort.

free martial weapon feat *ok this one is useless for the splashed but alright i guess for the pure warchanters under us.

inspire gh song for the whole party basicly saving time for the raid to be ready and enter the raid.

compare this to the crappy virtouso II regen songs that can be gotten on a crappy lvl 5 unraverel rapier useless +3 perform and +3 to listen useless +10% increase to your songs well compared to the warchanters songs 10% longer against increased damaged and atk.. well i know what to choose.

A fricking joke of a song to dancce oponents wich is basicly the nerfed version of a lvl 6 spell and a regen song wich isnt all that game breaking also.

Now the spellsingers really get pigeonholed into a healing/sp regen dc ++ bot unless you got some really cool epic kopeshes..

so basicly its hp and medium armor for the warchanters sp dc++ bot for the spellsingers and virtuosos just get scoffled into well what do you want to call it a staple of the more uselessness added to the already crappy pre we had before..

i would happily trade a permanent 25% fort for a usefull cc song that basicly dances all the mobs in the room or snuff them out like a wail of the banshee for the virtousos but no supposed to be cc song wise bard pre gets a SINGLE target joke of a song wich takes 3 sec to trigger and can be broken out of every 3 sec.. and a healing song something that should be given to the healing bard pre aka spellsingers.. its fricking hilarious imo..

if you didnt wanted to read it all

to sum it all up

stop complaining already they are not gonna change it it's called song of recklesness for a reason, compared to the other 2 pre's warchanters got
a pretty nice boost to functionality. The other 2 pre's just got more of the same useless **** they already had.

[Angelus_dead]

just seems to me that people are a bit spoiled concerning wcII compare it to virtuoso and then come complain about how **** is really is
Yes, the tier 2 abilities for all three bard specialties have some real problems. However, the Warchanter 2 includes one problem that is especially hard to deny: Song of Recklessess has approximately zero penalty on Warforged.

The problems with Spellsinger 2 and Virtuoso 2 are different: Their new songs to imbue a teammate with regeneration may be fairly powerful, but they don't improve game balance or give the Bard player more fun things to do in combat. (Indeed, the regen songs may actually make playing the Bard less fun as they divert song resources from offensive use).

[Mister_Peace]

Yes, the tier 2 abilities for all three bard specialties have some real problems. However, the Warchanter 2 includes one problem that is especially hard to deny: Song of Recklessess has approximately zero penalty on Warforged.

The problems with Spellsinger 2 and Virtuoso 2 are different: Their new songs to imbue a teammate with regeneration may be fairly powerful, but they don't improve game balance or give the Bard player more fun things to do in combat. (Indeed, the regen songs may actually make playing the Bard less fun as they divert song resources from offensive use).

It seems like a Virtuoso should have a song he could sing at raid bosses.

[Kintro]

That might happen, but it would be bad: It would further break the AC system, because high-AC characters would be punished with comparatively lower DPS.

After thinking about this a while I wonder if AC builds will even care about the 10% lower fort. Let's say they have enough AC to only be hit on a 17 by a mob with an 18-20 crit range. The enemy has:

1) 15% chance to roll a crit.
2) 20% chance to confirm.
3) 10% to bypass fort.

That's a 0.3% chance to get critically hit by my maths. 0.24% if you're blurred. I really don't see it as much of an issue.

[kingfisher]

why not just add a +10% stacking fort crafting option on dt armor? multiple armor sets are a must anyway....

[Dilbon]

If medium and heavy fort were nerfed to 50% and 75%, the whole -10% would not matter much.

[Darkrok]

The fact that Warforged get an 'unfair advantage' from this song is kind of the point. Since heavy fort items are used by pretty much everyone (Warforged included) from level 11 on (and most people from level 8 or 9 on) negates one of the advantages to playing a Warforged. This brings that advantage back to the forefront. As far as whether it's appropriate or not to negate all critical hits the ability is a part of the game as it's designed (both DDO and PnP) and should stay. I have no problems with enemies being able to reduce fort though and if a monster has a -25% fort reduction ability for instance it could lead to a Warforged w/ Heavy Fort getting critically hit with this song but not getting critically hit without it. Everyone could eventually have to make decisions...Warforged will just have an advantage in that area.

[Deaths_ward]

I'm surprised that I haven't seen an adjustment to the Song of Recklessness from Warchanter II yet. The current version (+5% doublestrike -10% fort) seems to have a giant problem:
Warforged will want it up all the time, but other races will only want it for situations where they know they'll be basically safe from enemy attacks.

So, let's rename it from Song of Recklessness to March of Robotic Overlords...?

Or, you could just deal with the fact that Warchanter Tier II doesn't say "Click this button to win" and move on.

The song will have places that it's more useful, and places where you'll get shot for singing it, which is appropriate for a powerful ability.