Dear Dev's: Peition to Make Nat Gann's Staff more "Natty"

[The_Phenx]

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp56/teth_01/ScreenShot00044.jpg

This is soo not Nat Gann's staff maybe its his twin brother's staff (who is much less athletic), Mat Gann.

Where to begin. I will take it enhancement by enhancement.

2d6 +6 Damage: 10 out of 10 :D
Not bad ties for the highest base damage for a staff (same as shining crescents)

Dodge bonus +4 7 out of 10 :)
Interesting choice but It wont stack with Icy Raiments which is the outfit of choice for acrobats, so it really only does something for those poor level 20 acrobats who haven't managed to acquire a set. (all 2 of them lol)

If you happen to be wearing SOS robes instead, this is kinda cool, so I can't say this one is terrible.

Dexterity +7 5 out of 10 :o
Interesting but most acrobats are already have a +6 dex item, so this is at best a +1 bump so may or may not give you +1 ac +reflex and +1 to S/A damage only while holding it, erm... but its not a damage staff, a +5 holy staff does more damage.

Sneak attack bonus +5 7 out of 10 :)
Once again interesting, but most Acrobats have Tharnes and if not this is a nice bonus. But not a terrible addition.

Swiftness -1000000 out of 10 :mad:
100% pure Horsepatoooey. Why on earth would you put this on a weapon, especially with the way the mechanic works. SO you have to hold the staff and shrine and bam you get 3 extra uncanny dodges, so brings your 20th level acrobat to 15. But lo and behold you have to equip a different staff, your down to 12, but you wanna hold this one again, then change your mind, and down to 9, etc etc etc... just changing staffs will eventually use up all your uncanny dodges without ever actually using any.

Red Augment Slot 9 out of 10 :D
Good choice no complaints here. It will let you break DR but, this weapon actually deals almost no damage, so it only gets a 9.



CMON THIS IS NAT GANN were talking about here!!!!
So my changes. Lets make this the ultimate acrobat staff.

#1 Make it shod in silver. Nat was the premier showman, it should be super showy. This way combined with the red slot make it a fantastic start.

#2 Give it radiance. Acrobats are rogues. Nat was the king. The king deserves his scepter.

#3 Give it a CL:20 Glitterdust clickie 5/Rest. SHOWMANSHIP!!!! Look at it sparkle.

#4 Give it tumble +20 Jump +15

#5 Keep Sneak Attack Bonus +5

#6 Keep Dexterity +7



Please Please Please fix this. As it stands I can see no reason to actually go thru the effort to attain this, not only that but if I somehow acquired it I would never actually equip it, because it would eat up all of my uncanny dodges.

Perhaps this explains why poor ole Nat was so easily whooped by the devils, back in the invasion of '08.

[Mr_Tank]

Dodge bonus +4 7 out of 10 :)
Interesting choice but It wont stack with Icy Raiments which is the outfit of choice for acrobats, so it really only does something for those poor level 20 acrobats who haven't managed to acquire a set. (all 2 of them lol)

If you happen to be wearing SOS robes instead, this is kinda cool, so I can't say this one is terrible.


But if you are a WF acrobat you cant use Icy Raiments. So 10/10 :)

[Fionivar]

Yeah, I don't see myself bothering to get this, If you rebuilt around it maybe.. but I know for a fact I swap sticks like crazy.. the swiftness is what breaks it for me. Of note, I'm not even sure if this Swiftness stacks with other items, like Epic Bracers of Deftness. I'd love to see Epic Telekinetic on it, THAT would make it something to consider twirling around.

[kernal42]

/Signed.

-Kernal

[KKDragonLord]

Swiftness is the Nattest of the abilities in the weapon imo.

its there for flavor mostly, not mechanics.

there are so many abilities that if they removed it you wouldn' t even make this thread.

Nat was a rogue? really? i didn t know that, i thought he was just a Street Performer NPC.

When the devs come up with stuff that don' t fit your concept of how things are and should be it means that its actually the way they meant it to be.

[Geonis]

The question that should be asked when making any weapon Epic is-

Would wielding a Greensteel version in level 20 content be better more than 50% of the time?

If the answer is yes, then they need to take it back to the drawing board.

These are supposed to be epic items.

I know GS is very powerful, I was one of the few posting that it would be what broke the game, because I understand power creep.

That being said, it does exist, so if the only reason to break out a weapon is to look cool, then it failed.

And under powering epics so they aren't overpowered in level <20 content is a stupid idea.

[Angelus_dead]

Swiftness is the Nattest of the abilities in the weapon imo.

its there for flavor mostly, not mechanics.
Swiftness is a broken ability at the moment. It should not be added to any weapons until it's been fixed.

[Geonis]

Swiftness is a broken ability at the moment. It should not be added to any weapons until it's been fixed.

Personally, I don't think it should ever be added to any weapons, regardless of if it were fixed or not.

Not when switching weapons is something done very often.

[Kromize]

But if you are a WF acrobat you cant use Icy Raiments. So 10/10 :)

Nat Gann is not a warforged... 0/10. :)

Then again, the problem is the lack of dodge bonuses in the game...

[Kromize]

Swiftness is a broken ability at the moment. It should not be added to any weapons until it's been fixed.

Broken along with every other ability of the type that add +n to total charges after shrining. Just a big bowl of fail. :(

[Glenalth]

Could just bump up the dodge to +5 and call it a day, you get good AC and very little damage output.

[Kromize]

Could just bump up the dodge to +5 and call it a day, you get good AC and very little damage output.

Yea, but, what would you use it for?

[khaldan]

Yea, but, what would you use it for?

dex/wis based AC acro-monk with intim?

Would be terrible until you got all the items for it, but hey.

[Angelus_dead]

Personally, I don't think it should ever be added to any weapons, regardless of if it were fixed or not.
Not when switching weapons is something done very often.
If it were fixed properly, then it would work totally fine regardless of when you switch weapons.

They simply have to follow the D&D 3.5 rules on abilities with a daily usage limit: the uses are measured in expended versus maximum, not remaining versus zero.

[The_Phenx]

Nat was a rogue? really? i didn t know that, i thought he was just a Street Performer NPC.

He was a rogue acrobat....

[Maegin]

/vomit

[Feylina]

Make it a Holy at least. Give it the potential to be a main weapon ie harry / sulu dr breaker. This game doesn't need another garbage staff we're full up here.

[khaldan]

Make it a Holy at least. Give it the potential to be a main weapon ie harry / sulu dr breaker. This game doesn't need another garbage staff we're full up here.

Anything with a red slot can be a DR breaker with the epic DA crystals.

[KKDragonLord]

Make it a Holy at least. Give it the potential to be a main weapon ie harry / sulu dr breaker. This game doesn't need another garbage staff we're full up here.


Red Augment Crystal of Aligned Planes:
A glowing red gem that permits an item to bypass all alignment based damage reduction, without modifying any other properties of the item. This augment crystal's enchantment lasts for 100 hours after being slotted, after which your item reverts to the original empty augment slot.

Red Augment Crystal of Demon's Ruin:
A glowing red gem that permits an item to bypass good aligned and cold iron damage reduction, without modifying any other properties of the item. This augment crystal's enchantment lasts for 100 hours after being slotted, after which your item reverts to the original empty augment slot.

Red Augment Crystal of Devil's Ruin:
A glowing red gem that permits an item to bypass good aligned and silver damage reduction, without modifying any other properties of the item. This augment crystal's enchantment lasts for 100 hours after being slotted, after which your item reverts to the original empty augment slot.

Red Augment Crystal of Metallic Edges:
A glowing red gem that permits an item to bypass all metallic based damage reduction, without modifying any other properties of the item. This augment crystal's enchantment lasts for 100 hours after being slotted, after which your item reverts to the original empty augment slot.

Red Augment Crystal of Xoriat's Ruin:
A glowing red gem that permits an item to bypass law aligned and byeshk damage reduction, without modifying any other properties of the item. This augment crystal's enchantment lasts for 100 hours after being slotted, after which your item reverts to the original empty augment slot.

Enjoy.

[TreknaQudane]

I'd rather it not use Dexterity for Attack...

Not sure about most players, but I know that my (underplayed) Thief-Acrobat has more STR than DEX.

[cardmj1]

I'd rather it not use Dexterity for Attack...

Not sure about most players, but I know that my (underplayed) Thief-Acrobat has more STR than DEX.

My acrobat is definitely more STR than DEX and so are most people I know.

[andbr22]

Brecause staffs are generaly non finesseable, and there were only 2 staffs with finesse abbility.
Now you got relativly low level dex attack staff (now only if you could get Dex as high as Str it could be cool).

Preview: next update -> mask of the monkey FURY (ragelike effect that dirassticly increase Dex) - specially for you Dex based characters... :D

[Glenalth]

Yea, but, what would you use it for?

For not getting hit.

[yynderjohn]

signed

[shagath]

Make it a Holy at least. Give it the potential to be a main weapon ie harry / sulu dr breaker. This game doesn't need another garbage staff we're full up here.Why every weapon out there must be harry/sulu beater? You can't beat them down with current weapons? Right on that garbage part. :)

[The_Phenx]

Well we currently only have 2 staff options for dr breaking. And we don't even have the ability of monks to attach rings to what we are using.

Min II & Metalline of PG on trash some of the others work, just depends on the trash

Because for some reason there are no silver shod staves in game. Guess they fell off the loot table. No flametouched iron, no well anything, just steel and wood. Anything outside that realm has been a named staff.

This staff would do it with the red slot, just needs to be silver.

[Maldavenous]

I am also quite disappointed with this staff, but my reasons are a bit different. I'm going to take your post format though :)

Over all there is nothing this staff has that isn't done by something else already and all of its bonuses don't work well on weapons. There are 3 situations with this staff:
1. You have to wield it all the time because you're relying on it for those stats.
2. You get almost no bonuses from wielding the staff because everything it does is already done somewhere else.
3. Every time you equip this staff you have to switch 3+ other items to make it worth its weight (Tharne's, Icy, DEX +6/7, anything moving this items allows you to use)

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp56/teth_01/ScreenShot00044.jpg

2d6 +6 Damage: 7 out of 10
Not bad ties for the highest base damage for a staff. However, it isn't backed up by any other damage abilities or DR bypassing features. You can add some to it with your red slot, but still not enough to bypass most important creatures DR. This staff can be used for fighting warded trash potentially (Epics).

STR Damage, DEX To-Hit 5 out of 10
If your Thief Acrobat was built in some way that he couldn't use any other staff well now he can actually use a staff but not deal much damage. It's likely that DEX To-Hit is going to get you a couple extra points of To-Hit if you are playing something like a Halfling TA. I could possibly see some TAs who were completely combat built taking a small penalty to hit for using this. If it's not going to be DEX/DEX it should be a Finesse-able weapon as to not penalize anyone.

Dodge bonus +4 6 out of 10 (10/10 for WF)
It doesn't stack with the Icy Raiments and you'll need to use this staff all the time to make use of the +4 AC. Otherwise you need to switch both this staff and your Raiments and whatever other thing you're gaining by being able to not wear Raiments every time you equip the staff. For instance you could now wear a +8 Armor Robe, +1 Dodge Bracers and this staff, but if you put the staff away you need to switch both of those other pieces.

Dexterity +7 2 out of 10
This is pretty much completely useless. Attribute bonuses on weapons don't help at all. You either need to only use this weapon or you need to switch 2+ pieces of gear every time you take the weapon out or put it away. Otherwise it's going to be useless to any Thief Accrobat who likely already has +7 DEX enhancement and definitely already has a +6.

Sneak attack bonus +5 5 out of 10
Yet again, another bonus that is already granted by one of the best rogue items, and just over all melee items around. You could possibly free up your goggles slot but it turns into the same situation that you need to switch your goggles every time you unequip or equip this staff.

Swiftness 0 out of 10
Useless, as stated by everyone else. Possibly nice for flavor.

Red Augment Slot 9 out of 10
Sure, red's acceptable for this one. Could have used a second colorless slot to help make up for how lackluster the rest of the staff is.

To make the staff work how it is now with the least change:

#1 Make it use DEX for damage. If you do this you can actually forget about most of the other changes. This actually makes the staff capable of filling the role of the "Use this item all the time" style that all its attributes are asking for. The only addition I'd say is to make it metalline and this would be an end all staff for certain Thief Acrobats.


To revise the staff possibly trade +7 DEX and Swiftness out for some of these and you HAVE TO switch it to finesse from DEX to-hit:
#1 Make it shod in silver at least, as of right now silver+good is still the most important DR bypass for high level content.

#2 Make it allow you to tumble even when you have slow effects on you.

#3 Give it a Double Strike bonus or enhance the Crit Range. Nat Gann was a very talented with a staff and would have been able to make it do amazing things. Sliding it between chinks in your armor or snapping the end to force an additional hit.

[Maldavenous]

Why every weapon out there must be harry/sulu beater? You can't beat them down with current weapons? Right on that garbage part. :)

Every weapon built like this staff is should be a DR breaker. This weapon isn't useful unless you can use it most of the time most of its bonuses are on your other gear. As it is now it doesn't break DR on any of the high level monsters or bosses.

[maddmatt70]

I am also quite disappointed with this staff, but my reasons are a bit different. I'm going to take your post format though :)

Over all there is nothing this staff has that isn't done by something else already and all of its bonuses don't work well on weapons. There are 3 situations with this staff:
1. You have to wield it all the time because you're relying on it for those stats.
2. You get almost no bonuses from wielding the staff because everything it does is already done somewhere else.
3. Every time you equip this staff you have to switch 3+ other items to make it worth its weight (Tharne's, Icy, DEX +6/7, anything moving this items allows you to use)

http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp56/teth_01/ScreenShot00044.jpg

2d6 +6 Damage: 7 out of 10
Not bad ties for the highest base damage for a staff. However, it isn't backed up by any other damage abilities or DR bypassing features. You can add some to it with your red slot, but still not enough to bypass most important creatures DR. This staff can be used for fighting warded trash potentially (Epics).

STR Damage, DEX To-Hit 5 out of 10
If your Thief Acrobat was built in some way that he couldn't use any other staff well now he can actually use a staff but not deal much damage. It's likely that DEX To-Hit is going to get you a couple extra points of To-Hit if you are playing something like a Halfling TA. I could possibly see some TAs who were completely combat built taking a small penalty to hit for using this. If it's not going to be DEX/DEX it should be a Finesse-able weapon as to not penalize anyone.

Dodge bonus +4 6 out of 10 (10/10 for WF)
It doesn't stack with the Icy Raiments and you'll need to use this staff all the time to make use of the +4 AC. Otherwise you need to switch both this staff and your Raiments and whatever other thing you're gaining by being able to not wear Raiments every time you equip the staff. For instance you could now wear a +8 Armor Robe, +1 Dodge Bracers and this staff, but if you put the staff away you need to switch both of those other pieces.

Dexterity +7 2 out of 10
This is pretty much completely useless. Attribute bonuses on weapons don't help at all. You either need to only use this weapon or you need to switch 2+ pieces of gear every time you take the weapon out or put it away. Otherwise it's going to be useless to any Thief Accrobat who likely already has +7 DEX enhancement and definitely already has a +6.

Sneak attack bonus +5 5 out of 10
Yet again, another bonus that is already granted by one of the best rogue items, and just over all melee items around. You could possibly free up your goggles slot but it turns into the same situation that you need to switch your goggles every time you unequip or equip this staff.

Swiftness 0 out of 10
Useless, as stated by everyone else. Possibly nice for flavor.

Red Augment Slot 9 out of 10
Sure, red's acceptable for this one. Could have used a second colorless slot to help make up for how lackluster the rest of the staff is.

#1 Make it use DEX for damage. If you do this you can actually forget about most of the other changes. This actually makes the staff capable of filling the role of the "Use this item all the time" style that all its attributes are asking for. The only addition I'd say is to make it metalline and this would be an end all staff for certain Thief Acrobats.

#2 Make it shod in silver. (I agree with this one, it can now become a DR bypasser if it is silver)

#3 Make it allow you to tumble even when you have slow effects on you.

#4 Give is a Double Strike bonus or enhance the Crit Range. Nat Gann was a very talented with a staff and would have been able to make it do amazing things. Sliding it between chinks in your armor or snapping the end to force an additional hit.

Nice analysis. In regards to #1 I would either make str to hit and damage or dex to hit and damage because dex to hit and str damage will benefit almost no builds. My preference though would be str to hit and damage because most current acrobat builds are strength based. Good suggestions on pts 2-4 I think 2 would be great if you make it so tier 2 acrobats who wield this staff can tumble out of chains (example in tower raid or vod raid).

[Maldavenous]

Nice analysis. In regards to #1 I would either make str to hit and damage or dex to hit and damage because dex to hit and str damage will benefit almost no builds. My preference though would be str to hit and damage because most current acrobat builds are strength based. Good suggestions on pts 2-4 I think 2 would be great if you make it so tier 2 acrobats who wield this staff can tumble out of chains (example in tower raid or vod raid).

Agree. #1 is how to make the staff work like it is now. It won't work for most but if #1 is fulfilled then a certain build could make better use of it. It also has TA synergy because your To-Hit and Damage will go up with Show Time. As long as this weapon remains DEX to-hit it won't be useful to STR based TAs.

#2-4 should be #1-3 for upgrading the staff. Maybe taking something like +7 DEX off in exchange for those abilities. I'll switch it around.

[SneakThief]

I noticed that the DEX+ and the STR+ on the person that had the staff were both +3. Is it possible that to-hit is the higher of the two and shows DEX because that's what it checks first? Or have they never done that before on a weapon? ... it would be cool if it just used the higher of the two stats for both to-hit and damage.

Personally though, I think it should be treated as a normal staff but that Acrobat should let you treat all staffs as finessable at tier 1 (since the knockdown bit is at 2) and then let you use the higher of STR/DEX as the base damage modifier at tier 3.

[KKDragonLord]

Every weapon built like this staff is should be a DR breaker. This weapon isn't useful unless you can use it most of the time most of its bonuses are on your other gear. As it is now it doesn't break DR on any of the high level monsters or bosses.

With the new Epic crystals, every Epic weapon becomes a DR beater.

This has already been brought up and shown here.

[khaldan]

With the new Epic crystals, every Epic weapon becomes a DR beater.

This has already been brought up and shown here.

Well, any weapon with a red slot, which should be all of them. It does keep you from making it a +7 weapon, sadly.

Still worth it, depending on how hard the crystals are to get.

[drac317]

1. I disagree with any weapon having a stat bonus on it, it's a waste of space.

2.All of the other epic staffs in game have 2d6+6 base dmg so this isn't an improvement.

3.It has been stated that these are english quarterstaffs so it should remain str to hit and dmg.

4.Swiftness(or other use per day boost) should not be put on weapons even as flavor, it's another waste of space.

well thats all i got atm.

[Glenalth]

Well, any weapon with a red slot, which should be all of them. It does keep you from making it a +7 weapon, sadly.

Still worth it, depending on how hard the crystals are to get.

The Red Fens epic items have no sockets :(

[khaldan]

The Red Fens epic items have no sockets :(

... Sadly, this is true.

Ok, every weapon except souleater should be able to break DR post u7 with an epic crystal.

[Glenalth]

... Sadly, this is true.

Ok, every weapon except souleater should be able to break DR post u7 with an epic crystal.

And Shatterbow, which could really use an Adamantine crystal.

[Alintalkin]

/signed

oh and having strength to attack instead of dex would be good.

[mournbladereigns]

/signed

Poor Yorick, I knew him so!

[Dartwick]

Make it silver and drop swiftness.

The rest of the mods are fine. I really like the dex based bonus to hit.

[Feylina]

*insert quote on new augments*

well see now i knew there was a reason i was supposed to read those threads. I remember someone saying something about the new augments but never paid it much mind. on hind site i shoulda read it as would keep me from getting foot / mouth disease.

off topic: yikes that seems OP. dr breakin esos 4tw!


To Shagath: honestly if it wasn't a harry / sulu beater would you use it? I wouldn't. thankfully though someone pointed out it could be a dr breaker. My question though is would it be worth it? The +dam/att (str/dex) is suggesting this would be a nice dex acrobat weapon. Were you to build a toon that way (perhaps some ac build). However, as it is the only one of it's kind (that I know of, and i know little of the new loot) i can't see many making dex based acrobats to take advantage of such a piece of ......

compare.

ESoS, EXuum, EChaosBlade, EDynastic's

ECrappyStaff

[The_Phenx]

Yep.

Its funny.

Currently the best staffs for fighting mobs in epic for an acrobat is either LSII or Dreamspitter. Radiance will come back once they fix the movement issues.

Sadly I can't calculate what "dps" the spitter produces.

Breeze is a dex based staff, but its meh as well.

Soul Eater is pretty fun tho...

[Therigar]

Could just bump up the dodge to +5 and call it a day, you get good AC and very little damage output.

And remove the Swiftness (due to implimentation issues).

[The_Phenx]

Could just bump up the dodge to +5 and call it a day, you get good AC and very little damage output.

The bulk of a Thief Acrobats damage comes from his S/A damage anyway, but still...

For example Preying sits at 45-50 (base) + 75-90 (S/A) right now...

Come next mod itll be over 100 just for S/A

[Genasi]

Hey, just wanted to let all of you know: I read through this thread, found it really useful, and ended up agreeing with a lot of what you've all said. Nat Gann's legendary staff should be a memorable weapon, even if it's intended for a specific type of build (Thief-Acrobats, specifically, as you've all been able to tell). Not only that, but you all made some good points about what kinds of weapon qualities are most useful in end-game content, and it looked like some of them would certainly fit in with the theme of the weapon. So I made the following changes:

-The non-epic and epic versions are now both made of silver.
-The crit range on the epic version is now 19-20.
-I removed the Swiftness mutation. I didn't realize it exhibited the behavior of basically robbing you of your Uncanny Dodges when removed, I hope we can work out a fix for the effect at some point.
-Both versions of the weapon are now Dex to-hit and Dex for damage. This seemed only reasonable considering how agile we all know Nat Gann to be. :)

Special thanks to The_Phenx and Maldavenous for their extra-detailed posts!

[DareDelvis]

Thanks for the Dev reply.

I still wonder about the Dex stat bonus...for the reasons mentioned

[ArtosKincaid]

Thanks for the Dev reply.

I still wonder about the Dex stat bonus...for the reasons mentioned

It's silver, so you can stick a good augment in the red slot and never change the weapon out. The dex problem isn't really a problem at this point. There's pretty much no reason NOT to use this staff on a thief acrobat.

[Deathseeker]

Nice work on this one and thank you.

Glad to see the feedback was taken into account and an adjustment made, nice example of dev/player communication. With the new changes, while the staff may not be the most incredible weapon to ever exist, it certainly now gives lots of cases where it's very useful. The increased crit range is very cool!

The +4 Dodge bonus is a very nice feature and Im glad you left it. While some may complain it's overlap with Icy Raiments, that's exactly why I like it. WF can use it, which is cool. Additionally, Im so tired of looking at Icy Raiments this opens up all kinds of gear layouts by freeing up the armor slot. That's a very nice benefit!

Losing the swiftness piece...well, enough said. Required change and it was done.

+5 Sneak attack bonus works for me. Sure, it's overlap with Tharnes, but like Icy Raiments, I like having options and not have every build end up with the same gear. Maybe Mentau's goggles and a litany would be interesting instead? Who knows, just nice to have options.

So nice work, look forward to farming this one on my new TR half orc acrobat when U7 goes live!

[Cyr]

-I removed the Swiftness mutation. I didn't realize it exhibited the behavior of basically robbing you of your Uncanny Dodges when removed, I hope we can work out a fix for the effect at some point.


Adding a clarification for you here Genasi since you appear to be the loot guy atm.

All item powers which add uses of a per day ability that are worded in a similar manner (which is every item with this type of ability that I can think of) suffer from this fatal flaw.

A_D has written many posts about how to fix this (in short make these items give +X use per day when put on unless the current uses per day are zero and simply remove X uses per day when the item is taken off). This prevents any infinite uses per day issues and eliminates the loss of uses per day each time you switch out an item for a clickie.

Most of the offending items of this sort are from Amarath such as the Kensai necklace, but there are a few more that made there way into the game after EU was released.

[Angelus_dead]

-I removed the Swiftness mutation. I didn't realize it exhibited the behavior of basically robbing you of your Uncanny Dodges when removed, I hope we can work out a fix for the effect at some point.
I'll explain a way to fix that, which is also the way mandated by the D&D 3.5 rulebooks (for similar things).

The current way the daily abilities work is that when you rest you get your uses_remaining set to equal uses_max. Each time you press the ability it checks if (uses_remaining > 0), and if so decrement uses_remaining by 1 and activate the power.

Instead of that, flip the meaning of the variables so they count up instead of down. When you rest your uses_today is set to 0. Each time you press the ability it checks if (uses_today < uses_max), and if so increment uses_today by 1 and activate the power. By doing it this way, equipping or removing items which buff uses_max will have no harmful effect

For example, suppose I have 5 uses of Skill Boost, and an item for +2 skill boosts. I start the adventure with uses_today = 0, uses_max = 5. I do the boost four times, so uses_today = 4. That means I can still do it once more, as (4<5), but then I'm out. However, I equip the magic item and it raises uses_max from 5 to 7. Now I can do another boost, because (5<7). This brings uses_today=6. Then I remove the item, and can no longer boost because (6>5). However, putting the item back on will give me one final skill boost, as (6<7). After that I have to rest to use the power any further.

This is something that would improve turn undeads, action boosts, uncanny dodge, and dragonmarks.

[Angelus_dead]

-Both versions of the weapon are now Dex to-hit and Dex for damage. This seemed only reasonable considering how agile we all know Nat Gann to be.
A potential problem is that a change like that is not necessarily an upgrade. For some characters it'll be a downgrade.

In particular, a character built as a Thief Acrobat using Quarterstaves will tend to have a high strength so he can do damage with the existing quarterstaves in DDO... frequently more strength than dexterity.

It might be good if some items like this had it use the better of two stats for the modifier, instead of unavoidably switching to the alternate stat. (Also, I earlier did a large thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=243571) discussing problems with DDO's weapons that swap one stat for another, especially Midnight's Greeting)

[Glenalth]

A potential problem is that a change like that is not necessarily an upgrade. For some characters it'll be a downgrade.

In particular, a character built as a Thief Acrobat using Quarterstaves will tend to have a high strength so he can do damage with the existing quarterstaves in DDO... frequently more strength than dexterity.

It does at least fit the Acrobat AC folks really well now. And more so the robot AC builds.

[kernal42]

I had assumed that the original (dex to-hit, str to-damage) qualities of the weapon were to compensate for the assumed acrobat ability to add dex to SA damage. Now this weapon is dex to-hit, 2.5x dex to-damage. That's remarkable scaling.

Cheers,
Kernal

PS - As said by others, the dev feedback to suggestions like this is great to see!

[maddmatt70]

A potential problem is that a change like that is not necessarily an upgrade. For some characters it'll be a downgrade.

In particular, a character built as a Thief Acrobat using Quarterstaves will tend to have a high strength so he can do damage with the existing quarterstaves in DDO... frequently more strength than dexterity.

It might be good if some items like this had it use the better of two stats for the modifier, instead of unavoidably switching to the alternate stat. (Also, I earlier did a large thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=243571) discussing problems with DDO's weapons that swap one stat for another, especially Midnight's Greeting)

Well the way Thief-Acrobats will work in mod 7 (they fix dexterity bonus counts as Sneak Attack Damage) I would not dump dexterity on a Thief-Acrobat build. For instance my thief-acrobat will have a dexterity in the mid 20's to 30 if I get him going and geared out right. So even strength based Acrobats if built right will use this weapon.

In general though I think it is fine to encourage dex based thief acrobats as well as strength based acrobats. I do agree that there should be a nice strength based q-staff put in the game soon as well.

[Trillea]

Question - Currently all Q-staves get STR bonus*1.5 due to being 2-handed weapons. Will this carry over to the DEX-based damage?

[Angelus_dead]

Well the way Thief-Acrobats will work in mod 7 (they fix dexterity bonus counts as Sneak Attack Damage) I would not dump dexterity on a Thief-Acrobat build. For instance my thief-acrobat will have a dexterity in the mid 20's to 30 if I get him going and geared out right. So even strength based Acrobats if built right will use this weapon.
Sure, they don't dump dexterity. But they're still likely to have more str than dex, meaning that this particular change on the weapon makes it worse for them, not better.

For example, the popular staff acrobat build in this thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=158960) has +1 more str than dex, meaning that with Rage and Madstone his str will be even higher.


In general though I think it is fine to encourage dex based thief acrobats as well as strength based acrobats.
Adding a couple dex-damage quarterstaves is not an effective way to do that. If they wanted dex-primary staff-wielding rogues to be a reasonable path, they'd have to either add finesse-staves as a standard magic item type, or insert a feat/enhancement for quarterstaves to be finesseable.

However, that's getting into the big and almost intractable problem looming over Weapon Finesse in general, which is too tough to get into here...

[sephiroth1084]

I'll explain a way to fix that, which is also the way mandated by the D&D 3.5 rulebooks (for similar things).

The current way the daily abilities work is that when you rest you get your uses_remaining set to equal uses_max. Each time you press the ability it checks if (uses_remaining > 0), and if so decrement uses_remaining by 1 and activate the power.

Instead of that, flip the meaning of the variables so they count up instead of down. When you rest your uses_today is set to 0. Each time you press the ability it checks if (uses_today < uses_max), and if so increment uses_today by 1 and activate the power. By doing it this way, equipping or removing items which buff uses_max will have no harmful effect

For example, suppose I have 5 uses of Skill Boost, and an item for +2 skill boosts. I start the adventure with uses_today = 0, uses_max = 5. I do the boost four times, so uses_today = 4. That means I can still do it once more, as (4<5), but then I'm out. However, I equip the magic item and it raises uses_max from 5 to 7. Now I can do another boost, because (5<7). This brings uses_today=6. Then I remove the item, and can no longer boost because (6>5). However, putting the item back on will give me one final skill boost, as (6<7). After that I have to rest to use the power any further.

This is something that would improve turn undeads, action boosts, uncanny dodge, and dragonmarks.
Perhaps I'm just not understanding, but would this allow a character to equip multiples of these items to keep gaining uses?

[Angelus_dead]

I had assumed that the original (dex to-hit, str to-damage) qualities of the weapon were to compensate for the assumed acrobat ability to add dex to SA damage. Now this weapon is dex to-hit, 2.5x dex to-damage. That's remarkable scaling.
A regular staff is 1.5 str to damage, plus 1.0 dex if you're an acrobat in Sneak Attack position. And actually the str bonus is multiplied on critical hits, so it's more like 1.65 str + 1.0 dex (2.65 total stat mod).
Then this special staff is 1.1 dex + 1.0 dex = 2.1 dex.

[Angelus_dead]

Perhaps I'm just not understanding, but would this allow a character to equip multiples of these items to keep gaining uses?
No it wouldn't. That's the biggest part of the motivation to do it this way. The current system counts down from max to zero, so it's hard to retroactively change the maximum because you also might have to change change the counter. The proposed system counts up from zero to max, meaning there's no confusion caused by changing the counter.

If he had two copies of the same item, then switching from one to the other would make no difference. If the items were such that you could equip two at a time (rings or 1h weapons), then whether they stack with each other is determined by regular stacking rules (like if a second Archmagi item gives you any more spellpoints than the first one did).

If you're at used_today = 6 and you have an item to increase your uses_max from 5 to 7, then you can activate the ability one more time. The only way to get more uses out of it is if you had another stronger item that provided more than a +2 bonus.

[kernal42]

A regular staff is 1.5 str to damage, plus 1.0 dex if you're an acrobat in Sneak Attack position. And actually the str bonus is multiplied on critical hits, so it's more like 1.65 str + 1.0 dex (2.65 total stat mod).
Then this special staff is 1.1 dex + 1.0 dex = 2.1 dex.


Question - Currently all Q-staves get STR bonus*1.5 due to being 2-handed weapons. Will this carry over to the DEX-based damage?

I made the same assumption as Trillea; that hopefully it'll be 1.5*dex rather than 1*dex; the latter means less damage per hit even on characters where str == dex, naturally.

In this case, 2.65 * one stat mod >> 2.65 * total stat mod. This is probably not OP on account of the stat in question being dex rather than, for example, str.

Cheers,
Kernal

[dkyle]

For example, suppose I have 5 uses of Skill Boost, and an item for +2 skill boosts. I start the adventure with uses_today = 0, uses_max = 5. I do the boost four times, so uses_today = 4. That means I can still do it once more, as (4<5), but then I'm out. However, I equip the magic item and it raises uses_max from 5 to 7. Now I can do another boost, because (5<7). This brings uses_today=6. Then I remove the item, and can no longer boost because (6>5). However, putting the item back on will give me one final skill boost, as (6<7). After that I have to rest to use the power any further.

I'll point out that this makes such items more powerful than currently intended, as the extra boosts are only supposed to apply after resting with the item on. I think this is a reasonable requirement, as it makes sure the item will occupy a slot for a significant amount of time, instead of just the few moments surrounding activating a boost.

[Mister_Peace]

Sadly I can't calculate what "dps" the spitter produces.

Negative levels are -5 hit points, right? or do they mess with the max hp in terms of con modifier?

[Mister_Peace]

Hey, just wanted to let all of you know: I read through this thread, found it really useful, and ended up agreeing with a lot of what you've all said ... So I made the following changes ...

wait, what? This actually happens?

[maddmatt70]

Sure, they don't dump dexterity. But they're still likely to have more str than dex, meaning that this particular change on the weapon makes it worse for them, not better.


Let's see your numbers on this especially where the player in question does not have a mineral 2 q-staff.



For example, the popular staff acrobat build in this thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=158960) has +1 more str than dex, meaning that with Rage and Madstone his str will be even higher.

However, that's getting into the big and almost intractable problem looming over Weapon Finesse in general, which is too tough to get into here...

Nothing is stopping the devs from making some stats have a higher possible ceiling then others or to increase a particular stats ceiling. I would argue they should increase dexterity's celing in the future. Suprisingly, no dex based players have commented on the new epic sets +3 to strength and con and yet no dexterity increase. The ever widing gap between strength and dexterity keeps growing. The devs can and should release some new gear which provide +3 or +6 even increases to dexterity - lets say a psionic bonus +6 to dexterity item soon.

[kernal42]

Let's see your numbers on this especially where the player in question does not have a mineral 2 q-staff.

In principle, a lit II staff should be easier to construct than an epic staff.

-Kernal

[Angelus_dead]

I made the same assumption as Trillea; that hopefully it'll be 1.5*dex rather than 1*dex; the latter means less damage per hit even on characters where str == dex, naturally.
There already are named items with dexterity to damage, and they don't apply the handedness multipliers of strength. That's a benefit for offhand weapons, but a penalty for two-handers.

[The_Phenx]

Hey, just wanted to let all of you know: I read through this thread, found it really useful, and ended up agreeing with a lot of what you've all said. Nat Gann's legendary staff should be a memorable weapon, even if it's intended for a specific type of build (Thief-Acrobats, specifically, as you've all been able to tell). Not only that, but you all made some good points about what kinds of weapon qualities are most useful in end-game content, and it looked like some of them would certainly fit in with the theme of the weapon. So I made the following changes:

-The non-epic and epic versions are now both made of silver.
-The crit range on the epic version is now 19-20.
-I removed the Swiftness mutation. I didn't realize it exhibited the behavior of basically robbing you of your Uncanny Dodges when removed, I hope we can work out a fix for the effect at some point.
-Both versions of the weapon are now Dex to-hit and Dex for damage. This seemed only reasonable considering how agile we all know Nat Gann to be. :)

Special thanks to The_Phenx and Maldavenous for their extra-detailed posts!

Just got the chance to check in and ***CHEEERRRR*** that is absolutely fantastic.

A DEX/DEX instead of a finesse staff makes me loose a lil dps since most acrobats are Str based,

BUT!!

Most acrobats have a moderately high dex anyway, and the silver enhancement and crit mult are fantastic, and lets be honest the bulk of our damage is from Sneak Attacks anyway.

32/32 str/dex on preying, on TR will be 32/34. And yes A_D when double madstoned + rage + etc Preying is at a 40 str.

With proper build planning you could make this a fantastic staff, and it becomes a useful addition to the bag of tricks, and will become my tanking AC boss beater staff.

That being said, would it be terribly difficult to allow it to choose which ever is higher for str and damage? If not can we make sure that the Dex damage gets the 1.5x modifier to damage from dex for THF? Well since all acrobats are thf by nature?

[The_Phenx]

Negative levels are -5 hit points, right? or do they mess with the max hp in terms of con modifier?

They completely mess with max hp for the con mod... most times when you see a deleveling you can watch the health bar creap back up because they have a greater percentage of total left.

But I can drop a mob in epic in about 10-15 hits with a spitter by myself.

130-200+ a hit in dps and all the neg levels stack up fast.

[The_Phenx]

A regular staff is 1.5 str to damage, plus 1.0 dex if you're an acrobat in Sneak Attack position. And actually the str bonus is multiplied on critical hits, so it's more like 1.65 str + 1.0 dex (2.65 total stat mod).
Then this special staff is 1.1 dex + 1.0 dex = 2.1 dex.

A_D don't forget its 2d6 vs 1d8... not sure how to calculate that in... It "should" almost break even before you take the crit multiplier into account.

[ahpook]

I'll point out that this makes such items more powerful than currently intended, as the extra boosts are only supposed to apply after resting with the item on. I think this is a reasonable requirement, as it makes sure the item will occupy a slot for a significant amount of time, instead of just the few moments surrounding activating a boost.

Yes it makes it stronger but that is not unreasonable. No worse than clickies that recharge whether you are equipping them or not. And compared to the current implementation problems, a well deserved improvement.

But I really popped in to say thanks Gensai. It is really nice to see you look at the concerns of the player and take action.

[Angelus_dead]

I'll point out that this makes such items more powerful than currently intended, as the extra boosts are only supposed to apply after resting with the item on.
Making the item more powerful is the goal.


I think this is a reasonable requirement, as it makes sure the item will occupy a slot for a significant amount of time, instead of just the few moments surrounding activating a boost.
That is an unhelpful requirement to impose. The item is better and the gameplay is more fun if you can equip the item simply for one boost.

Look at it this way:
Imagine that the items of this type already worked according to my alternative. If someone were to suggest changing it to only work if you had the item equipped continually since you last rested, what would be the justification?

[Maldavenous]

A potential problem is that a change like that is not necessarily an upgrade. For some characters it'll be a downgrade.

In particular, a character built as a Thief Acrobat using Quarterstaves will tend to have a high strength so he can do damage with the existing quarterstaves in DDO... frequently more strength than dexterity.

It might be good if some items like this had it use the better of two stats for the modifier, instead of unavoidably switching to the alternate stat. (Also, I earlier did a large thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=243571) discussing problems with DDO's weapons that swap one stat for another, especially Midnight's Greeting)

Generally speaking I agree that it would be better to allow an item to fit into more builds by using the greater of two stats. However what that does is simply cause a single item to be the "best" for a situation, in the case of some items that's almost every situation. That "best" doesn't take into account class, flavor or play style.

What this weapon does as a DEX/DEX weapon is take into account Class, PRE, Flavor and Play Style supporting a specific group of people. This weapon grants new, previously near impossible, avenues of character building. However it is only with limited support, but builds should take that into account with their STR stat and their gear layout.

As a Thief Acrobat this weapon allows you to focus completely on maximizing your AC and Sneak Attack. Seeing the Thief Acrobat's DEX mod is intended to add to their Sneak Attack damage allowing a for DEX Damage will mean that DEX based TAs will gain 2 points of damage for every point of DEX mod (assuming they're sneak attacking).

The way I feel about weapons is that not every weapon can be for everyone but every weapon should be for someone. This weapon is now definitely for someone.

My hope is that the Strength based Thief Acrobats and other staff users will also get a good staff to use in the near future.


As an aside...
I've been intending to put a spreadsheet together of Named Items with pages for normal and epic items to try to highlight the gaps but haven't gotten around to it yet.
However it is good to see that there is finally a Repeater in named loot.

[Trillea]

However it is good to see that there is finally a Repeater in named loot.

Yes, and let's hope that one of those unknown named loots that Genasi alluded to is a named dwarven axe as well. My dwarf has been looking for some of those for a LONG time, and if I ever get a tome set it will go to Skiver for my caster.

[TreknaQudane]

I still don't like this staff. Even if you're dex heavy as a TA, you can still get good AC while having a better STR and being able to .. I don't know.. contribute more to the party.

It's a hell of a lot easier to buff STR than it is DEX, making this a DEX/DEX staff means my TA will not be getting it. Nor will my TA be getting Breeze for that matter. Nor Souleater. (It uses STR, but it's just bad unfortunately). That leaves my TA with a Rahl's Might, Shining Crescents, Dream Spitter, and a GS Staff or two. And in reality, I probably only need the GS ones.

I think it should do DEX to damage/attack if, and only if, your DEX is higher than STR.

[sephiroth1084]

Generally speaking I agree that it would be better to allow an item to fit into more builds by using the greater of two stats. However what that does is simply cause a single item to be the "best" for a situation, in the case of some items that's almost every situation. That "best" doesn't take into account class, flavor or play style.

What this weapon does as a DEX/DEX weapon is take into account Class, PRE, Flavor and Play Style supporting a specific group of people. This weapon grants new, previously near impossible, avenues of character building. However it is only with limited support, but builds should take that into account with their STR stat and their gear layout.

As a Thief Acrobat this weapon allows you to focus completely on maximizing your AC and Sneak Attack. Seeing the Thief Acrobat's DEX mod is intended to add to their Sneak Attack damage allowing a for DEX Damage will mean that DEX based TAs will gain 2 points of damage for every point of DEX mod (assuming they're sneak attacking).

The way I feel about weapons is that not every weapon can be for everyone but every weapon should be for someone. This weapon is now definitely for someone.

My hope is that the Strength based Thief Acrobats and other staff users will also get a good staff to use in the near future.


As an aside...
I've been intending to put a spreadsheet together of Named Items with pages for normal and epic items to try to highlight the gaps but haven't gotten around to it yet.
However it is good to see that there is finally a Repeater in named loot.
The problem with this (as A_D has already mentioned) is that your focus on Dex over Str won't pay off for any of the rest of your character's life, since basically every other quarterstaff in the game uses Str. You can LR to fit into the staff or something, but that doesn't justify the item very well.

[The_Phenx]

And I agree, to a point, the dex dex isnt too terrible, at most your loosing +1 or +2

Preying is pretty maxed out with TOD rings, +3 tomes etc and is at a 32 str, and a 30 dex.

It would have been no stretch to hit a 32/32 so while its not ideal, its done for flavor and I can buy off on it.

Once I TR preyingusing boat buffs I will be able to hit a 32/36.

Yes its easier to buff str, but, that leads back to only loosing 1 or 2 points.

I would have loved to see a feature giving auto S/A but thats not the end of the world.

My only and I mean ONLY real concern is that the Dex will not add 1.5x damage multiplier like a THF weapon should. Can we get a DEV or Player confirm or deny on this?

I have been debating this a lil over the last couple hours.

While the changes already made are pretty outstanding, and I do not wish to appear ungrateful and ask for more, If the answer to the above question is no, it does not, I would love to see DEX/DEX changed to finessable, OR the +7 dex change to a +2 profane bonus.

[Genasi]

I'll explain a way to fix that, which is also the way mandated by the D&D 3.5 rulebooks (for similar things).
Thanks A_D. I'm definitely going to push for a fix for this so that we can start safely using these treasure effects again. It's unfortunate that so many of them are rendered ineffective due to the current implementation.


The ever widing gap between strength and dexterity keeps growing. The devs can and should release some new gear which provide +3 or +6 even increases to dexterity - lets say a psionic bonus +6 to dexterity item soon.
Duly noted. With that set bonus I definitely gave preference toward strength-based melee characters. It would only be fair to balance things out in the near future. :)


That being said, would it be terribly difficult to allow it to choose which ever is higher for str and damage? If not can we make sure that the Dex damage gets the 1.5x modifier to damage from dex for THF?
I recognize the concerns here, and these are both things I'd like to do, but it isn't a simple implementation. Much like the fixes to the uses-per-day system, I'd like to see if we can get these features in the future as well.


My hope is that the Strength based Thief Acrobats and other staff users will also get a good staff to use in the near future.
The intention was for Souleater to serve that function, but I think I agree with the feedback that it could also use some buffing. Right now for the Souleater we're looking at 2d6 damage and a 19-20 crit range, which is pretty standard for epic staves. It has Trap the Soul, but examining it more closely it seems the maximum hit dice on that effect is such that most epic creatures are not going to be affected. Then there's the Negative Energy Spike, which is okay against living stuff but obviously useless on constructs and detrimental versus undead. It also lacks a slot, which is really too bad.

To make it better (this would be a near-future task, mind you, not an immediate one), how about I add a red slot, increase the HD on the Trap the Soul effect, give it some kind of Vampirism effect, and have it grant perhaps a +2 profane bonus to Strength, since it's intended for Strength-based staff users? Do people feel the Negative Energy Spike is more trouble than it's worth when it heals undead? I'd be interested in people's thoughts for how to make Souleater a good alternative to the Staff of Nat Gann if you're not dex-based.


I've been intending to put a spreadsheet together of Named Items with pages for normal and epic items to try to highlight the gaps but haven't gotten around to it yet.
That would be really helpful, Maldavenous, thanks!

[Trillea]

To make it better (this would be a near-future task, mind you, not an immediate one), how about I add a red slot, increase the HD on the Trap the Soul effect, give it some kind of Vampirism effect, and have it grant perhaps a +2 profane bonus to Strength, since it's intended for Strength-based staff users? Do people feel the Negative Energy Spike is more trouble than it's worth when it heals undead? I'd be interested in people's thoughts for how to make Souleater a good alternative to the Staff of Nat Gann if you're not dex-based.


Red slot = good.
Secondary effects listed = even better.

As for the Neg Energy spike I am thinking that it is OK, or change it to the type of neg energy currently used on Touch of Death that undead are just immune to instead of it healing them, at least this way it would just be a non-effect instead of detrimental.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Hey, just wanted to let all of you know: I read through this thread, found it really useful, and ended up agreeing with a lot of what you've all said. Nat Gann's legendary staff should be a memorable weapon, even if it's intended for a specific type of build (Thief-Acrobats, specifically, as you've all been able to tell). Not only that, but you all made some good points about what kinds of weapon qualities are most useful in end-game content, and it looked like some of them would certainly fit in with the theme of the weapon. So I made the following changes:

-The non-epic and epic versions are now both made of silver.
-The crit range on the epic version is now 19-20.
-I removed the Swiftness mutation. I didn't realize it exhibited the behavior of basically robbing you of your Uncanny Dodges when removed, I hope we can work out a fix for the effect at some point.
-Both versions of the weapon are now Dex to-hit and Dex for damage. This seemed only reasonable considering how agile we all know Nat Gann to be. :)

Special thanks to The_Phenx and Maldavenous for their extra-detailed posts!

Well now that did just become an interesting weapon

[Deathseeker]

To make it better (this would be a near-future task, mind you, not an immediate one), how about I add a red slot, increase the HD on the Trap the Soul effect, give it some kind of Vampirism effect, and have it grant perhaps a +2 profane bonus to Strength, since it's intended for Strength-based staff users? Do people feel the Negative Energy Spike is more trouble than it's worth when it heals undead? I'd be interested in people's thoughts for how to make Souleater a good alternative to the Staff of Nat Gann if you're not dex-based.

For reference for those following along, the current Epic Souleater is:

+6 Quarterstaff (1d6, 20/x2, Steel): Trap the Soul, Bodyfeeder, Negative Energy Spike

Frankly, I think the suggestions you offer are right on target:

+6 Quarterstaff (2d6, 19-20/x2, Steel): "Improved" Trap the Soul, Bodyfeeder, Vampirism, Negative Energy Spike, +2 Strength, Red Slot

I'd be careful not to add too much more. This would make the staff quite useful, but not overpowered. We do have to keep in mind that the Qstaff uses both hands, so like all THF items, it needs to be pretty nice to make up for the fact you only get one weapon instead of two. It's also a pretty simple item to acquire (assuming all seals/scrolls drop as intended) and the base item is not bound. Thus, it should be nice, but not overwhelming.

Trillea's point regarding neg energy is a good one (make it not heal undead), if possible. But not a game breaker for me either. Would just make it a bit cleaner.

One question...Ive seen the Trap the Soul on greensteel weapons work on epic mobs, so those items must be ignoring the HD issue (I cant believe Epic Sanghuin have less than 30 HD). Does the Souleater not work the same currently?

But either way, I like the direction!

[Deathseeker]

Let me just add...

Genasi should get the "Dev of the week" parking space at Turbine HQ!

Not so much because you are suggesting improving weapons (though that's a great thing), but more importantly, the communication and interaction being displayed in this thread is such a good example of community interaction. Really, really appreciate it!

[cardmj1]

Let me just add...

Genasi should get the "Dev of the week" parking space at Turbine HQ!

Not so much because you are suggesting improving weapons (though that's a great thing), but more importantly, the communication and interaction being displayed in this thread is such a good example of community interaction. Really, really appreciate it!

I second this!!!!

[Angelus_dead]

Duly noted. With that set bonus I definitely gave preference toward strength-based melee characters. It would only be fair to balance things out in the near future.
Well, the loot bias towards strength bonuses really kicked in with the Module 4 release of Madstone Boots...


Then there's the Negative Energy Spike, which is okay against living stuff but obviously useless on constructs and detrimental versus undead. It also lacks a slot, which is really too bad.
A general suggestion for all epic versions of weapons which carry extra damage dice: just double the damage of the effect as a baseline part of the epic process. That means a Shock effect would become 2d6 and Holy becomes 4d6 when switched to epic.


Do people feel the Negative Energy Spike is more trouble than it's worth when it heals undead?
No, that kind of situationality is totally fine. Players don't expect the same weapon to be the best for every creature.

Note that negative damage from a staff can occasionally cause the bizarre effect of a monk freezing an undead into Tomb of Jade and then bonking it to refill his Ki indefinitely, because the negative heals the monster more than he hurts it.


I'd be interested in people's thoughts for how to make Souleater a good alternative to the Staff of Nat Gann if you're not dex-based.
A nice comparison for any Epic weapon is to construct that weapon type as Lightning Strike Greensteel, equippable at level 12. If the Epic item does not do more damage than the ML 12 greensteel, or have some other nice benefit, then go back over it.


That would be really helpful, Maldavenous, thanks!
Here's the short version of the missing epic weapon categories:
Handwraps and rapiers

(Yes, there is one epic rapier, but Elyd Edge is a failure. It would need new coding to allow charisma-modified attacks to be more flexible and useful than simply replacing the strength stat)

[Trillea]

Here's the short version of the missing epic weapon categories:
Handwraps and rapiers

(Yes, there is one epic rapier, but Elyd Edge is a failure. It would need new coding to allow charisma-modified attacks to be more flexible and useful than simply replacing the strength stat)

Don't forget Dwarven Axes! The only reason they are not as viable endgame is because there ARE NO EPIC ones!

[Junts]

While what Angelus says is pretty much dead on, there's exactly two epic weapons better than a lightning2 greensteel (xuum and sword of shadows), anything that's even equivalent (like chaosblade) is generally regarded as fantastic. If epic kronzek's cruelty is lightning strike and can end up silver in the hands of a pure paladin, it will be an incredibly popular item just for being roughly equivalent to such an item.

Outside of those twohanders, the high-end dps of weapons on DDO hasnt been pushed in ages. Even epic chaosblade is just 'a lightning 2 against some monsters that's also vorpal in nonepic content and can bypass dr for a paladin', which is a tremendous weapon .. and the light2 still does better damage vs most monsters.

[Angelus_dead]

Back to the Nat Gann staff:

Making it dex/dex for attack/damage has very different results at level 5 and level 20. Melee Rogues can be built with either strength or dexterity as their highest stat. If they're strength-primary then they might use either TWF (often Khopesh) or THF, but a dexterity-primary will be TWF (or maybe sometimes S&B).

However, at levels 1-14 the dex-primary Rogue doesn't have GTWF yet, so equipping two weapons is not as comparatively beneficial as it will be later. That means that upon obtaining a non-epic Nat Gann staff, the low-level dex Rogue may quite likely find it a superior alternative to TWF (especially if the monster has Fortification and/or DR Blunt, like a skeleton).

That niche goes away at high level, when the dexterity builds have gotten their full TWF feat series. They might use a dex-damage staff for occasional special purposes (such as if they don't feel like carrying around two maces for fighting skeletons), but it won't be a primary piece of someone's arsenal. The dex-based will use TWF, and the str-based will use weapons that allow their strength to apply its full normal benefit.

[Trillea]

That niche goes away at high level, when the dexterity builds have gotten their full TWF feat series. They might use a dex-damage staff for occasional special purposes (such as if they don't feel like carrying around two maces for fighting skeletons), but it won't be a primary piece of someone's arsenal. The dex-based will use TWF, and the str-based will use weapons that allow their strength to apply its full normal benefit.

I see what you are saying here, but this may have changed. With the reduction in rogues' offhand attacks to 80%, the alacrity bonus given to acrobats with staves, and the DEX addition to sneak attack damage with staves, a straight DEX build may very well get more damage out of this staff (and hopefully other DEX staffs in the future).

[Junts]

Its also fair to say that on DDO if an archtype is to be pushed it can be pushed through making items strong enough, especially if that weapon can be configured to bypass devil DR. However, it probably isn't a great plan to make the staff of nat gann single-handedly enable dex-based thf acrobats. However, if it's made good enough it -will- do that. It would take pushing hte base damage a bit higher, perhaps, to make up for the difference in how hard it is to buff str (rage, madstone, barb rage, etc) vs buffing dex, but that's about all it would take, presuming that the dex mod is still applied at 1.5x becasue it's a two handed weapon: when it also adds to sa damage, dex is actually a more attractive per-point statistic with identical weapon stats.

With silver -and- a red slot, it's a raid boss weapon and if it's strong enough people will build around using it all the time. However, there are -no- other good weapons to support the archtype (breeze is bad), so these builds would be very, very poor leveling up.

You guys would be better off keeping str as a damage effect on all staffs, and giving acrobat a dex instead of str mod conversion with quarterstaffs inherent to its nature, possibly for 1 extra action point, which would allow people to either have dex to sneak attack and easily pumped str, or allow them to focus on the harder to pump stat and have it be doubly effective (damage and sneak attack).

This is better than creating a series of quarterstaffs that uses dex and a series that uses str: this makes you have to make twice as many quarterstaffs, and only pushes a narrow range of builds, as most people would find those items worthless.

[Deathseeker]

I see what you are saying here, but this may have changed. With the reduction in rogues' offhand attacks to 80%, the alacrity bonus given to acrobats with staves, and the DEX addition to sneak attack damage with staves, a straight DEX build may very well get more damage out of this staff (and hopefully other DEX staffs in the future).

And to add to what Trillea is saying, it doesnt have to be exactly the same or better dps, it just has to be reasonably comparable so that the desire to play a toon that's a bit different than the standard TWF Kopesh Str build isn't a recipe for complete ineffectiveness.

This staff has a nice AC benefit. It doesnt have to be the end-all in terms of dps, just has be a reasonable alternative. The fact that the AC benefit isn't much of a benefit in epic is more a problem with epic than with the staff (which I desperately hope they continue to address).

[TreknaQudane]

Souleater is supposed to be imprinted on by a Hezrou ... Hezrou attacks are treated as Chaotic and Evil aligned for the purpose of DR... Maybe the staff can be as well?

[Cyr]

To make it better (this would be a near-future task, mind you, not an immediate one), how about I add a red slot, increase the HD on the Trap the Soul effect, give it some kind of Vampirism effect, and have it grant perhaps a +2 profane bonus to Strength, since it's intended for Strength-based staff users? Do people feel the Negative Energy Spike is more trouble than it's worth when it heals undead? I'd be interested in people's thoughts for how to make Souleater a good alternative to the Staff of Nat Gann if you're not dex-based.


If the goal is to make the soul eater the go to weapon for str based acrobats in epic I have two suggestions (following two different possible design goals for the weapon)...

Option 1:
Trap the Soul Changed to no HD limit
Trap the Soul triggers on a crit (not a random proc effect) which would make this weapon beloved by many for epic trash mobs beat downs
Add Red Slot (because no epic item should be without a slot)

Option 2:
The idea on this path would be for less of a stunned mob clean up weapon and more of a great general use str based q-staff
Trap the Soul changed to no HD limit
Red Slot
Damage 2d6
Crit 19-20
Chaos and Evil damage bypass
lose the neg energy spike thing
Profane bonus to Double Strike +3%

[The_Phenx]

I recognize the concerns here, and these are both things I'd like to do, but it isn't a simple implementation. Much like the fixes to the uses-per-day system, I'd like to see if we can get these features in the future as well.


Gotcha. I was assuming it was as simple as adding the finessable tag to the weapons effects.



The intention was for Souleater to serve that function, but I think I agree with the feedback that it could also use some buffing. Right now for the Souleater we're looking at 2d6 damage and a 19-20 crit range, which is pretty standard for epic staves. It has Trap the Soul, but examining it more closely it seems the maximum hit dice on that effect is such that most epic creatures are not going to be affected. Then there's the Negative Energy Spike, which is okay against living stuff but obviously useless on constructs and detrimental versus undead. It also lacks a slot, which is really too bad.


2d6 and 19-20 crit range is great. It is something that no greensteel staff can ever provide so right there it makes it "epic" 100% think this right on the money.

Negative energy spike on this is great, with what this staff grants I would never grab it to beat on undead anyway. My Undead weapon of choice is My lightning II greensteel (for obvious reasons). It doesn't have to be good at everything.

As far as constructs, I have found a plain jane holy construct bane or the shining crescents to be very effective. However the best fix to this problem would be to release shod staffs into the game. Adamantine, Byesk, etc...



To make it better (this would be a near-future task, mind you, not an immediate one), how about I add a red slot, increase the HD on the Trap the Soul effect, give it some kind of Vampirism effect, and have it grant perhaps a +2 profane bonus to Strength, since it's intended for Strength-based staff users? I'd be interested in people's thoughts for how to make Souleater a good alternative to the Staff of Nat Gann if you're not dex-based.


Break it down the way I did before.

Red Slot - 10 out of 10: 100% awesome... this is not a staff for boss beating anyway and a red slot lets it be a good addition to my orange named and below collection. But if you want it to be a boss beater has to go past holy/silver, and since its kind of an evil staff...just doesn't make sense.

Inccrease HD on trap the soul - 10 out of 10: - yes yes yes!!!

Vampirism 10 out of 10-- YES!!! Combined with the bodyfeeder would almost make this my go to staff.

+2 Profane to str 10 out of 10: -- YES I seem to be saying yes a lot. :D

Now to blog a touch and then give a suggestions.

A str based acrobat is best played like a barbarian. We manage aggro rather than avoid it. We put out lots of damage, and like to cleave a whole room full of mobs for full S/A damage. 99% of all acrobats are STR based, since 99% of all staffs are not finesse.

Suggestion.

Create a modifier called shrouded in darkness or something of that ilk. The staff pulls on the essense of the targets soul, it leaves them off balance and dazed granting a chance to grant sneak attacks for a short period of time, and 10% concealment.

This staff will never outpace a Mineral II for boss beating, and that is fine, that role is filled nicely. But without an auto sneak attack feature a Radiance II Greensteel will still be the best non boss staff for a str acrobat in the game, and it really shouldn't be.

Because unlike boss beatdowns, you sometimes need to beat on a trash mob by yourself.

So this way its a DPS oriented staff, with a small chance at auto kill which gives amazing survivability benefits. Sounds like a perfect dps oriented str based acro staff to me.

And its all thematically appropriate.

[quityourjobs]

With silver -and- a red slot, it's a raid boss weapon and if it's strong enough people will build around using it all the time. However, there are -no- other good weapons to support the archtype (breeze is bad), so these builds would be very, very poor leveling up.

Can't agree enough. This weapon means your character will play very poorly until you get this one specific epic item, whereupon it moves up from fairly useless to marginally effective. I'd prefer to see it kept STR / STR as it's so much more in line with THF and THF synergies.

There's a number of ways to make it appealing to both STR and DEX based, I support any of them over locking out one type.

[Maldavenous]

Can't agree enough. This weapon means your character will play very poorly until you get this one specific epic item, whereupon it moves up from fairly useless to marginally effective. I'd prefer to see it kept STR / STR as it's so much more in line with THF and THF synergies.

There's a number of ways to make it appealing to both STR and DEX based, I support any of them over locking out one type.

If you're going to build as STR as a Primary and DEX as a secondary it's not too difficult to do it the other way around and still be able to level up using a STR based QStaff or even still using a STR QStaff at high levels. As Rogue is a DEX class and if you're going for max Sneak Attack you'll be a Halfling which is a DEX race you're going to be picking up 5 points of extra DEX that you can't get for STR as well as the -2 STR of a Halfling leading to a 7 point difference in total. Between all the STR effects such as STR and Madstone you can make that up towards DEX but it's not going to be a huge difference.

Now if you're not a Halfling, say a WF, the difference will likely be only 3 if you were evenly DEX focused which means after STR buffs your STR would still be higher and 5 if you are a Drow or Elf which will end up with STR just a bit ahead most of the time with the chance for higher bursts.

Now assume you're a Thief Acrobat and add in your Show Time effect and in most cases you'll end up fairly even. The problem with this is that you're spending your haste boosts to get Show Time. Haste Boost is the better damage boosting effect of the two, so it's likely if you're going to be short on boosts you should focus more on using this one.
***Key fix here would to have Show Time not use your Haste Boosts. Kensai gets to save their haste boosts and still use their once a minute STR boosting clicky. Please make Show Time use one of your Uncanny Dodge uses and not a Haste Boost use, this works better with Thief Acrobat anyway because you get extra uses of Uncanny Dodge from that.


I'm not a believer in not doing things simply because they haven't been done. It's not that Rogues and Thief Acrobat doesn't support a DEX build it's that the rest of the game's systems don't really support a DEX build. A few more Finesse and/or DEX/DEX QStaffs can support this for Thief Acrobats. Over all it would be nice to see a good DEX stacking clicky, however I'm not a really a fan of giving the Cloth wearing lot another way to get even more AC than Armor and Shield tanks.

[Junts]

If you're going to build as STR as a Primary and DEX as a secondary it's not too difficult to do it the other way around and still be able to level up using a STR based QStaff or even still using a STR QStaff at high levels. As Rogue is a DEX class and if you're going for max Sneak Attack you'll be a Halfling which is a DEX race you're going to be picking up 5 points of extra DEX that you can't get for STR as well as the -2 STR of a Halfling leading to a 7 point difference in total. Between all the STR effects such as STR and Madstone you can make that up towards DEX but it's not going to be a huge difference.

Now if you're not a Halfling, say a WF, the difference will likely be only 3 if you were evenly DEX focused which means after STR buffs your STR would still be higher and 5 if you are a Drow or Elf which will end up with STR just a bit ahead most of the time with the chance for higher bursts.

Now assume you're a Thief Acrobat and add in your Show Time effect and in most cases you'll end up fairly even. The problem with this is that you're spending your haste boosts to get Show Time. Haste Boost is the better damage boosting effect of the two, so it's likely if you're going to be short on boosts you should focus more on using this one.
***Key fix here would to have Show Time not use your Haste Boosts. Kensai gets to save their haste boosts and still use their once a minute STR boosting clicky. Please make Show Time use one of your Uncanny Dodge uses and not a Haste Boost use, this works better with Thief Acrobat anyway because you get extra uses of Uncanny Dodge from that.


I'm not a believer in not doing things simply because they haven't been done. It's not that Rogues and Thief Acrobat doesn't support a DEX build it's that the rest of the game's systems don't really support a DEX build. A few more Finesse and/or DEX/DEX QStaffs can support this for Thief Acrobats. Over all it would be nice to see a good DEX stacking clicky, however I'm not a really a fan of giving the Cloth wearing lot another way to get even more AC than Armor and Shield tanks.


Thats why, in the post he was quoting from, I suggested that instead of doing some dex-mod-to-damage quarterstaffs to encourage the dex acrobat (which is clearly the build they want: see acrobat dex modifier to sneak damage with quarterstaffs), they instead allow acrobats an optional 1 AP enhancement for super-weapon-finesse-with-staffs: giving them permanent dex to hit and dex to damgae with all staffs. That would allow them to support both archtypes with any staff instead of having to custom design str-based staffs and dex-based staffs.

[quityourjobs]

***Key fix here would to have Show Time not use your Haste Boosts. Kensai gets to save their haste boosts and still use their once a minute STR boosting clicky. Please make Show Time use one of your Uncanny Dodge uses and not a Haste Boost use, this works better with Thief Acrobat anyway because you get extra uses of Uncanny Dodge from that.

I like that idea.


It's not that Rogues and Thief Acrobat doesn't support a DEX build it's that the rest of the game's systems don't really support a DEX build. A few more Finesse and/or DEX/DEX QStaffs can support this for Thief Acrobats.

Well, what we have instead is one epic quarterstaff that will provide decent damage to the .001% of players who have dex-based Halfling Rogue Acrobats and are willing to deal with low dps with it until they build Nat's.

I think a more streamlined option is to let acrobats use quarterstaves with either strength or dex modifier, whichever is higher (or spend one AP to use them with Dex modifier as suggested above). Then they can leave the staves alone and let the different variations play out as desired, whether dex or str based.

[The_Phenx]

***Key fix here would to have Show Time not use your Haste Boosts. Kensai gets to save their haste boosts and still use their once a minute STR boosting clicky. Please make Show Time use one of your Uncanny Dodge


/signed x 10000000000

[The_Phenx]

Well, what we have instead is one epic quarterstaff that will provide decent damage to the .001% of players who have dex-based Halfling Rogue Acrobats and are willing to deal with low dps with it until they build Nat's.

It really is not hard to have a good dex and strength on a halfling acro.

THe only real bite in the keester is the lack of 1.5x damage for THF.

Acrobat is bugged over on lama land, the alacrity boosts aren't applying correctly.

Others should go test to validate, I made a thread on the topic.

[Asymetric_War]

just another underpowered useless epic that no one in their right mind would use.

Give it Radiance and make it silver and you've got something. as is, meh

[Maldavenous]

Thats why, in the post he was quoting from, I suggested that instead of doing some dex-mod-to-damage quarterstaffs to encourage the dex acrobat (which is clearly the build they want: see acrobat dex modifier to sneak damage with quarterstaffs), they instead allow acrobats an optional 1 AP enhancement for super-weapon-finesse-with-staffs: giving them permanent dex to hit and dex to damgae with all staffs. That would allow them to support both archtypes with any staff instead of having to custom design str-based staffs and dex-based staffs.

I had a similar idea but it really seems like a bit much for Thief Acrobats to get so many combat changes. Then again it may be in hand thank to the PRE focusing on QStaffs on the melee class that would likely be the worst at QStaffs.

In the long run we have an influx of single weapons that have specific stats for To-Hit and Damage that haven't really existed before. This issue with this is it greatly reduces the consuming public for those items, even more so seeing nobody built with them in mind or will build for them seeing they're just a single item.

There should be some grander solution for it all. Be it crafting, feats or enhancements that allow you to set the mods you'll be using.

I'm not a fan of just making these mods so it stacks on some extra DEX damage to your STR already because it still leaves you with a STR focus melee build, which is pretty much all you can make now.

[Dartwick]

Hey, just wanted to let all of you know: I read through this thread, found it really useful, and ended up agreeing with a lot of what you've all said. Nat Gann's legendary staff should be a memorable weapon, even if it's intended for a specific type of build (Thief-Acrobats, specifically, as you've all been able to tell). Not only that, but you all made some good points about what kinds of weapon qualities are most useful in end-game content, and it looked like some of them would certainly fit in with the theme of the weapon. So I made the following changes:

-The non-epic and epic versions are now both made of silver.
-The crit range on the epic version is now 19-20.
-I removed the Swiftness mutation. I didn't realize it exhibited the behavior of basically robbing you of your Uncanny Dodges when removed, I hope we can work out a fix for the effect at some point.
-Both versions of the weapon are now Dex to-hit and Dex for damage. This seemed only reasonable considering how agile we all know Nat Gann to be. :)

Special thanks to The_Phenx and Maldavenous for their extra-detailed posts!

Cool changes thanks.

[Wrendd]

Would it be possile/reasonable for the devs to introduce a new feat that mirrors Power Attack, but is instead DEX based? Call it Adroit Striking or or Adroit Combat or something, but the feat would let you add 1.5x your DEX mod to your damage with 2 handed weapons and would also allow you to use DEX for damage instead of STR on any weapon that is finessable + a few other choice weapons (such as quarterstaff). That might make it possible for even a fighter to be primarily DEX based and still do reasonable damage (obviously not top end, but it might be interesting). And I think it would help out the rogues that want to be DEX heavy and STR light.

[Feylina]

read a few more pages and got bored. so may get foot / mouth again.

suggestion though.

Perhaps change the Acrobat PRE to resemble ninja spy

Acrobat I = Q-staff is a finessable weapon where dex applies to sneak damage or whatever the update 7 change is
acrobat II = imp crit q-staves
acrobat III = some high dex and dodge bonuses i would be assuming, more sneak is more in line with assasin, i think a +5 dodge bonus would go a long way to make this a more viable toon. acro intimi's ne1?

sorry don't mean viable here. More like unique or something other than a rogue with a quartestaff build, you know. get some flavor going with these pre's to unlock some cool new build ideas