seperating lvl 20's from 15-19 WON'T CUT IT

[Kromize]

Seriously? I'm lvl 19, so I was in there soloing it most the time... Get him down to 75%, he runs to another alter, can't catch him because he runs back and forth, fail. :(

Nice event planning Devs, screwed us lvl 15-19's out of a chance to actually kill the dragon. Why not let people choose an instance to join, or make it so their entire party/raid goes into the same instance, being the highest level character in the party...

It was that simple, and you failed. :(

The event itself was fantastic, loot is cool(not near enough of it though!!!). But the dragon slaying is borked.

[ArloOne]

I am almost speechless....I on the other hand..would like to say..Thanks Turbine...I personally feel you did a real cool job with it....Keep up the good work!

[Angelus_dead]

I'm not sure of all the mechanical details (how the system divides people into instances, etc), but it appears that this Spectral Dragon encounter is almost a textbook example of pitfalls in raid design: Players losing their opportunity to win their mission because of the performance of other players in a separate room, with whom you had no communication or interaction.

Seriously, I've used this as a teaching example of the wrong way to build a raid. But the Spectral Dragon encounter seems even worse than that, because you don't even really get to pick the people you'll be depending on.

DDO's raids have always had trouble because the game play doesn't scale up well past 4-6 players... making an encounter that involves beyond 12 people looks like just asking for trouble.


Why not let people choose an instance to join, or make it so their entire party/raid goes into the same instance, being the highest level character in the party...
I imagine they were trying to do something different, and throw people together as a pushed-socialization thing or something. But that's a difficult thing to do well, and for starters you wouldn't divide the people into four groups that are interdependent but non-interacting.

[Kromize]

I am almost speechless....I on the other hand..would like to say..Thanks Turbine...I personally feel you did a real cool job with it....Keep up the good work!

I'm not saying they didn't do a great job with the event, it was really fun, until I got to fight the dragon...by myself...

It's just that the planning of how the actual Dragon Slaying Event places people is borked.

They only really needed to add even one thing to it.



if DragonEvent.start
if EventLvl15-19.totalPlayers < 20
EventLvl15-19.instance = EventLvl20.instance;
This would make it so when there are few players in a select level range, they get bumped up, as to not be left out.

Also make it so that parties/raid groups don't get separated just because they have a range of levels...



if player.inParty
player.eventInstance = party.eventInstance;
where their party event instance is set to that of the highest lvl player. So yes, lvl 8-12 can get into a lvl 20 instance if they are in the party...

[Kromize]

I'm not sure of all the mechanical details (how the system divides people into instances, etc), but it appears that this Spectral Dragon encounter is almost a textbook example of pitfalls in raid design: Players losing their opportunity to win their mission because of the performance of other players in a separate room, with whom you had no communication or interaction.

Seriously, I've used this as a teaching example of the wrong way to build a raid. But the Spectral Dragon encounter seems even worse than that, because you don't even really get to pick the people you'll be depending on.

DDO's raids have always had trouble because the game play doesn't scale up well past 4-6 players... making an encounter that involves beyond 12 people looks like just asking for trouble.


I imagine they were trying to do something different, and throw people together as a pushed-socialization thing or something. But that's a difficult thing to do well, and for starters you wouldn't divide the people into four groups that are interdependent but non-interacting.

It was funny tho, cuz it kept spamming me that they recommended 16 or more players.... I think we had a maximum of 5 people in there at one time(they all left right away though...coulda killed it with just the 5, potentially, after a loooong time of intimidating with my tank, while someone else DPS'd the dragon)

It's a pity they failed it so hard. I can only hope they fix it for live...

[Angelus_dead]

They only really needed to add even one thing to it.
The simpler way to fix it is to switch back to their regular instanced dungeons mechanics. Forget the idea of making the dragon battle a weird kind of combat-enabled public zone with players filtered by level, and make it just a raid instance that can only be entered at limited times.

[TiranBlade]

This makes me think they are trying thier hand with spliting up level based instances for public combat. Possibly leading to how they are going to handle the Scalable Repeatable Content, if you notice from every instance of this event, almost everything is new about it.

And they have stated before that they are trying many new things to see if, when, and how they might implement it as a whole. I like the Idea, but as I was not present for the dragon fight, I have no idea how it went.

But the public area was interesting in the least. I'm going to see if there was a Barter Review thread somewhere, if not, I'll start one I loved that idea.

[Zuldar]

The easiest way to fix it would be to require all four altars to be broken to fail the raid, that way even if the rest of the group fails you'll still get a shot at it. Of course, for every broken altar the dragon could get stronger giving a good incentive not to let him break any.

[Crann]

The easiest way to fix it would be to require all four altars to be broken to fail the raid, that way even if the rest of the group fails you'll still get a shot at it. Of course, for every broken altar the dragon could get stronger giving a good incentive not to let him break any.

This

Maybe make him regain full HP each time he destroys an alter. That way the quest cannot fail, unless everyone had a part in its failure.

[Auran82]

The first time I 'completed' this fight on my capped Sorc, the room I was in never even saw the dragon, apparently it got bugged in another room and we had no idea what was happening.

[Kromize]

This

Maybe make him regain full HP each time he destroys an alter. That way the quest cannot fail, unless everyone had a part in its failure.

off topic, but: Then the strategy would be to let him kill 3 alters, then take him out at the 4th...would probably be faster...

Anyways, back onto topic... Give people a choice of some sort, or program it correctly, so that when you make a party to partake in the event, it isn't all for naught. I like AD's idea of using the good 'ol dungeon mechanic. And if you want more than 12 people, why not make a new one? Make public dungeons...

Public Dungeons would allow anybody to enter as long as they fit the level range as set by the dungeon creator.
You can either join an already open dungeon, or create your own with a public level range that you set, as well as whatever difficulty you choose(doing a difficulty lower than your level range results in less reward). Anybody in your party/raid can enter your dungeon, even if they don't meet the level requirements.

[Harncw]

I disagree, it was not full of fail, I had fun.
Even had fun when the kobold slipped in there and broke the altar.

OP:
You have time to get your lvl 19 to lvl 20.
Also if you are gonna take a turn at programming, you can start by learning where the semicolons go.

[Kromize]

You didn't have fun so that mean everything is not okay? shellfish
mmmm...shellfish....
http://nigelbrown.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/fish-shellfish-page-compressed.jpg


They said they are experimenting with new quest designs, or something to that effect, deal with it. I'm excited by it, was cool to try something different. Sorry it didn't work out for you, you didn't score your +5 something of uberness by getting completion that time. It's a freaking Halloween event.

I understand that, and they wanted feedback, so I gave it to them. A bit more effective then "I didn't get to do anything because I was lvl 19 and could go in with my party, but I think you might fix it for live" don't you think? Harsh tones are necessary once in a while, this was one of those onces I think(due to how they've reacted to feedback in the past)...


I didn't see a need for the code, it read arrogant, as if you are belittling the complex job they have creating fun. As if saying "You messed it up, something so easy I can write it in 3 little lines."

Understandable, however, I felt it necessary since they had such a great event, and it led to ruin for me and the others in my lvl range due to that blatant mistake.

I only got 1 run in there and it went smoothly, yes we were level 20s. We used general chat to coordinate which caused additional work and chaos, but chaos breeds excitement, fun.

I'm glad that you were able to have a lot of fun in the dragon fight. I did too, but I would have preferred to be able to beat it. :( Even if it meant soloing him the rest of the way down to 0. On that note however, while the dragon has a ton of hp that requires some time to take down solo, the fight itself is very easy, until it run away from you...

Also that additional chaos turns it into more than just an exclusive party thing it becomes more of a community thing.

I agree very much so...when there is a community..and not 1. )-:

You don't want to see people playing in groups over 12?
You want 20-40 people all in voice chat with you?
You don't want them to experiment with new dungeon ideas?
You expect them to change player grouping and god knows how much of their code to go from 6-12 to greater than 12?

they don't have to be all in the same group, but the same instance for parties/raid groups would be nice. My above suggestion for public dungeons could be a very fitting solution to the problem.

I can understand wanting to give feedback, but so far it seems as though you are recommending they scratch the whole, different kind of quest/group size piece, isn't that what this event is supposed to do?

Not scrap it, but change it so that it works.

If you want to fight a dragon go do Tor or something, I think they are working on more than just a dragon fight here. Don't give up on it devs!

The tor dragons are boring... This dragon is glowy, and shiny, and undead... :D



Too lazy to break up the quote....

Also...


if troll
rep.add -1;
else if thoughtfulComment
rep.add +1;
if rep.add.timer != 0
rep.add.waitTillCanAdd +1;

[cardmj1]

I think it would be doable if when you entered an instance, you also entered into a party/raid group with everyone in the instance. This would allow better communication and would make it visible on the map where everyone was located.

For example, a raid group forms before entering and they are all in the party instance. As other people enter, they are instantly added to your party and your map.

[Kromize]

So he is a troll because he called you out and doesnt agree with you? How does that work? I enjoyed the event quite a bit. Im sorry you didnt have fun.

You didn't view both sides of the argument equally did you? If you read both posts, and the ones continuing, you might understand a bit more...

I find it irritating that you'd rather post your opinion of what may be perceived as trollish and not trollish(posting comments such as he did can easily be perceived as trollish too btw) instead of actually contributing to the topic at hand(the borked level range restricted instancing), or even reading multiple parts of the thread.

Unlike you, Harncw actually contributed to the thread, even if it was after his first, partially seemingly trollish' post. What exactly did you post here for?

[Kromize]

I think it would be doable if when you entered an instance, you also entered into a party/raid group with everyone in the instance. This would allow better communication and would make it visible on the map where everyone was located.

For example, a raid group forms before entering and they are all in the party instance. As other people enter, they are instantly added to your party and your map.


As previously commented on, that many people all on the voice chat system ma get a bit chaotic, especially with no party-control options. And counting the current voice chat system this game uses, that would just make it many times worse. It's hard enough to adjust your settings to hear everyone in a raid group acceptably well, let alone 40 people...

[Aikou]

if DragonEvent.start
if EventLvl15-19.totalPlayers < 20
EventLvl15-19.instance = EventLvl20.instance;



I'm worried enough about the gimp lvl 20's getting into the instance, at least on Orien. I already anticipate specific guilds flooding the area and if scaling is based on the number of players in the instance, not to mention reliance upon them in other areas, it's already a problem not having that degree of control.

I really don't want to have to worry about the gimp non-lvl 20's as well. Moral of the story? It stunk for you on the test servers, make sure you're lvl 20 before attempting it live?





if player.inParty
player.eventInstance = party.eventInstance;
where their party event instance is set to that of the highest lvl player. So yes, lvl 8-12 can get into a lvl 20 instance if they are in the party...

While I find this one a cooler solution, it just means those lower lvl gimps with higher lvl friends will still be letting them in. Raises my same concerns, granted it could allow non-gimped non-lvl 20s in as well and I suppose I can't help but concede two sides of the coin when referring to gimps.


P.S. None of this is directed at you, I've obviously never heard of you, looked at your toons, etc. and I'm in no way trying to start this terrible argument where you tell me you're not a gimp. I've no knowledge and thus no opinion of you. Just stating this is my worry if it were to be implemented live. (specifically on Orien)

[testing1234]

succeeded at lvl9-14 without to much trouble.
well on the second try first try failed in less then 30seconds but then none of us knew anyting that time

bit boring since to easy

[lord_of_rage]

You didn't view both sides of the argument equally did you? If you read both posts, and the ones continuing, you might understand a bit more...

I find it irritating that you'd rather post your opinion of what may be perceived as trollish and not trollish(posting comments such as he did can easily be perceived as trollish too btw) instead of actually contributing to the topic at hand(the borked level range restricted instancing), or even reading multiple parts of the thread.

Unlike you, Harncw actually contributed to the thread, even if it was after his first, partially seemingly trollish' post. What exactly did you post here for?

I posted because I found your attitude lacking. Calling someone a troll multipule times in an a single post because they didnt agree with your points was uncalled for. And as you did with his first post you got upset with my post, hit the neg rep, and commented because you didnt like what I said. I guess thats your perception.

I didnt have a ton of trouble in the event. I used my lvl5 half orc and my capped pally. I had fun and saw plenty of drops with both. Im guessing youll have to wait to neg rep me again. But Im sure you will based on other comments you have made.

[Kromize]

I posted because I found your attitude lacking. Calling someone a troll multipule times in an a single post because they didnt agree with your points was uncalled for. And as you did with his first post you got upset with my post, hit the neg rep, and commented because you didnt like what I said. I guess thats your perception.

I didnt have a ton of trouble in the event. I used my lvl5 half orc and my capped pally. I had fun and saw plenty of drops with both. Im guessing youll have to wait to neg rep me again. But Im sure you will based on other comments you have made.

I don't see what's so wrong about pointing out things you think are tollish(even if in the form of a silly naming convention as Mr.Troll)... I neg repped you because your post was disruptive. As it disrupted the original point of the thread, and tried to change the topic to troll or no troll while stating false information on what had occurred.

I had fun in the event too as you may understand, again, if you actually read and comprehended the thread, instead of a few select posts. But I can already see that you don't have a clue what it was like being 1 level under cap and getting ripped off on the dragon.

Do you even understand what this thread is about? Your post here was also disruptive, get back onto the topic of the thread... Seriously, it's annoying.

Disapprove (e.g. Inflammatory, Derogatory, Disruptive, Trolling, or violates community guidelines) So now I urge you, go back, read and comprehend this thread. Try to understand that it's not about lvl 5's, or lvl 20's, or that the event was fun or not. But instead, about the lvl range 15-19 that didn't get a real chance at the second event(lvl range in live will probably be better off though due to inflated numbers). And the fact that preformed parties and raids didn't get to go in together, which is just terrible.



Other Interesting Facts: Neg rep at the same time you posted, both times. And the fact that you commented on my neg repping you, when you would have to look at the time, and assume it was me, tells me that you are one of the people that cares more about rep on this forum than actual conversation... Interesting...

[lord_of_rage]

I don't see what's so wrong about pointing out things you think are tollish(even if in the form of a silly naming convention as Mr.Troll)... I neg repped you because your post was disruptive. As it disrupted the original point of the thread, and tried to change the topic to troll or no troll while stating false information on what had occurred.

I had fun in the event too as you may understand, again, if you actually read and comprehended the thread, instead of a few select posts. But I can already see that you don't have a clue what it was like being 1 level under cap and getting ripped off on the dragon.

Do you even understand what this thread is about? Your post here was also disruptive, get back onto the topic of the thread... Seriously, it's annoying.
So now I urge you, go back, read and comprehend this thread. Try to understand that it's not about lvl 5's, or lvl 20's, or that the event was fun or not. But instead, about the lvl range 15-19 that didn't get a real chance at the second event(lvl range in live will probably be better off though due to inflated numbers). And the fact that preformed parties and raids didn't get to go in together, which is just terrible.



Other Interesting Facts: Neg rep at the same time you posted, both times. And the fact that you commented on my neg repping you, when you would have to look at the time, and assume it was me, tells me that you are one of the people that cares more about rep on this forum than actual conversation... Interesting...

How is the information false? My quote was " So he is a troll because he called you out and doesnt agree with you? How does that work? I enjoyed the event quite a bit. Im sorry you didnt have fun."Or is it false based on your skewed perception? Considering my comments twords you were questions, hence the punctuation used. Again you never corrected me so how is it false. Elighten me oh wise one. I commented on the neg rep due to your cute coding used in your responses to tack. I can care less about my forum rep. My greenis is fine regardless. I never attempted to change the topic. I simply commented on your arrogance. Which every response you make seems to drip with. If you understood the neg rep system you would understand its impossible for my to neg rep you twice in the period of time you claim I did. So Who is concerned about their greenis and forum rep?

Yes I see YOU are upset because YOU got "ripped off on the dragon". I also understand that if YOU hadnt personally been "ripped off on the dragon", you wouldnt have posted this topic. But youll just say I dont comphrehend the whole topic. I do but it doesnt fit into "your" perception of my comprehension of the topic.

[Loceish]

In my honest opinion, if this were implemented on the live servers the same way it was on lama, I highly doubt you'd be the only one in your room. It was on lama land though, and a lot of people were on a capped toon. There were plenty of people at other level ranges, but 15-19 obviously was a bit lacking.

I personally was on a 20, and I loved the event. We talked in general chat, we got the different altars covered, it wasn't an issue.

It is a free to play event as well, so when it goes live, I promise there will be more then plenty of bodies in there.

In the experience I had with the dragon, I thought it was a cool event, if I had to ask them to change anything, it would be to make those altars a tad bit more difficult to defend.

I just don't see much reason to choose an instance, when there will be more than an abundance of players during the event on the live servers.

[Kromize]

I agree with you loceish, and I have also stated that it would be better in live due to more people, but the basic fact still stands that parties can't go in together if their range is too different, or, even just 19-20....

Anyways, I'm done here. Too much drama...