Update 7 Guild Renown Bonus Formula and Various Renown Changes

[Vanshilar]

This is very much a work in progress and likely won't be completed for another week or two, but since I won't get much work done on this in the next few days, I might as well as give what I have so far.

When Update 5 with guild renown, and subsequently a later patch which implemented the small guild renown bonus, I posted about how the formula creates a "dead zone" around 20-30 accounts where guilds with fewer accounts and guilds with more accounts would be able to get more renown:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=262164

The reason is that the guild's total renown-gathering potential (or basically, the equivalent number of accounts the guild has due to the bonus), assuming each player gains the same amount of renown, will actually decrease beyond a certain point because the bonus proportionally decreases faster than the accounts increase. For example, in going from 20 to 21 accounts, the number of accounts increase by 5%:

(21 accounts - 20 accounts) / (20 accounts before additional account) = 1/20 = 5%

However, in doing so, the bonus decreases by about 8%:

bonus at 20 accounts = 90% => renown multiplier is 1.9
bonus at 21 accounts = 75% => renown multiplier is 1.75

(1.75 - 1.9) / (1.9) = -0.15/1.9 = -3/38 = -7.9%

Thus when multiplied together, the guild will actually lose about 3.3% of its renown-gathering potential, which discourages a small guild from increasing beyond a certain size, unless there's enough applicants to push the guild past 40 accounts (which is the maximum equivalent guild size for a small guild in terms of its renown-gathering potential).

Update 7 brings with it the announcement of a medium guild renown bonus, and so this thread is (partially) to figure out what the renown bonus is for guilds of various sizes.

Currently, I've tested the renown bonus for guild sizes of up to 24 accounts. Although purely cosmetic:

1-6 accounts are considered a "very small guild"
7-16 accounts are considered a "small guild"
17 accounts and above are considered a "medium guild"

These are given in the renown gain messages.

From testing, the bonus for 1-16 accounts are unchanged. I've only tested up to 24 accounts so far, and thus far the bonus seems like:

#Acc Bonus
1 150.0%
2 180.0%
3 210.0%
4 240.0%
5 270.0%
6 300.0%
7 285.0%
8 270.0%
9 255.0%
10 240.0%
11 225.0%
12 210.0%
13 195.0%
14 180.0%
15 165.0%
16 150.0%
17 137.5%
18 125.0%
19 115.0%
20 105.0%
21 97.5%
22 90.0%
23 83.0%
24 76.0%

I should note that because the data is based mostly on heroic deeds and tales of valor, the actual percentages may be off by a little bit (1-2% or so).

The interesting thing is that if you now multiply (# accounts) with (1 + bonus%) to calculate the guild's renown-gathering potential, this results in:

#Acc Renown-gathering potential
1 2.50
2 5.60
3 9.30
4 13.60
5 18.50
6 24.00
7 26.95
8 29.60
9 31.95
10 34.00
11 35.75
12 37.20
13 38.35
14 39.20
15 39.75
16 40.00
17 40.38
18 40.50
19 40.85
20 41.00
21 41.48
22 41.80
23 42.09
24 42.24

As you can see, now, the renown-gathering potential continues to increase as it gains more accounts, which thus removes this dead zone at around 20-30 accounts. Based on the trend so far, it looks like the line will eventually equal the number of accounts at 50 accounts. In other words, it looks like what Turbine did was to draw a straight line from the equivalent renown-gathering potential of 40 accounts when a guild has 16 accounts, to 50 accounts at 50 accounts. So this way the renown-gathering potential of a guild, based on its account size, now looks like:

http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac182/Vanshilar/RenownGainU7.gif

Remember that thus far this is tested only up to 24 accounts and so the rest is extrapolation; I'll fill in with more tested data as I get them but there probably won't be more until the weekend.

In this way, post-Update 7, there shouldn't be a worry that if a guild inducts too many people, the renown gain would decrease. Now, in theory, if new recruits are just as prolific in getting renown as current members, a guild will always get more renown. Of course, it's still of little comfort when small guilds try to match up to 200-account or 500-account guilds, but at least, this will let small guilds be able to increase their size without worrying about renown gain.

As for other renown changes that I've noticed:

* On expelling a character (that is still active), the guild loses 25% of what that character had gained (total) in terms of renown. It is unknown if there is any penalty to expelling an inactive character (> 30 days).
* On a character quitting, he has the choice of leaving in good terms or leaving on bad terms. If he leaves on good terms, the guild loses 10% of whatever he had gained. If he leaves on bad terms, the guild loses 25% of whatever he had gained. This is an option that comes up with the player chooses to leave the guild. Note that the guild leader/officer expelling is equivalent to the character leaving on bad terms, in terms of renown loss.
* It is currently unknown if the total renown gain for each character is affected by renown decay. Hopefully the character's total renown gain *is* affected by renown decay (i.e. it also decreases over time) so that if he leaves, the amount that he takes with him is proportional to how much renown he gained relative to everyone else. Otherwise, if not, this is a big disadvantage to guilds who are approaching or at equilibrium, since players must gain renown every day to keep up with decay, yet if they leave they will take a huge chunk of renown with them (basically a portion of all the renown they had earned since Update 7). However, I don't know if Turbine thought ahead to this point about this.

Some analysis of these changes and other U7 changes:

These changes will heavily disadvantage those guilds that engage in "pump and dump", inducting newbies for their short-lived Korthos enthusiasm (the first few days that they try out the game) and then expelling the ones that don't come back after a few days. This will encourage guild member stability and decrease the turnover rate in those mega-guilds, which is probably a good thing.

Because guild renown decay in Update 7 will also keep track of "recently departed" accounts for up to 14 days, the higher level a guild is, the more consideration it will need to give to each prospective applicant (with regards to renown). If a level 50 guild (decay level-based multiplier of 93.75) loses an account, this represents a 93.75*14 = 1312 renown loss due to adding to the "recently departed" category for the next 14 days. If a level 80 guild (decay level-based multiplier of 985.6) loses an account, this represents a 985.6*14 = 13798 renown loss. In other words, a level 50 guild will basically lose 1312 renown for a prospective applicant that doesn't pan out, while a level 80 guild will lose almost 14k renown. This is something that the guild leader/officer will have to consider when he inducts a prospective applicant. Again, this encourages stable, longer-term relationships between members, and setting the bar higher for entry for high-renown, powergamer guilds. A low-level casual guild won't have to worry about this (since decay is so low at the lower levels), but this will be more of an issue for powergamer guilds that settle in at the higher levels.

And of course, because inactive accounts (> 30 days) will no longer be considered for renown decay nor renown bonus, this means that guilds that are willing to hold on to their inactive members until Update 7 arrives, will be able to keep those members in the guild without penalty unless they hit the 1000-character cap. This is a change that will favor the older, long-term guilds, as they are more likely to have inactive members still in the guild due to a storied past, and are more likely to currently be affected by the decay that those members incur.

[Angelus_dead]

* On expelling a character (that is still active), the guild loses 25% of what that character had gained (total) in terms of renown. It is unknown if there is any penalty to expelling an inactive character (> 30 days).
* On a character quitting, he has the choice of leaving in good terms or leaving on bad terms. If he leaves on good terms, the guild loses 10% of whatever he had gained. If he leaves on bad terms, the guild loses 25% of whatever he had gained. This is an option that comes up
Weird that there are such concrete changes without the release notes saying so..

So this good/bad term thing is there to protect people from being maliciously kicked from a guild, because they'd take more of the renown with them? But is there any reason for someone leaving on his own to pick "good" terms, except just to be nice? And would the guild officers know what he picked?

[articwarrior]

This is very much a work in progress and likely won't be completed for another week or two, but since I won't get much work done on this in the next few days, I might as well as give what I have so far.

When Update 5 with guild renown, and subsequently a later patch which implemented the small guild renown bonus, I posted about how the formula creates a "dead zone" around 20-30 accounts where guilds with fewer accounts and guilds with more accounts would be able to get more renown:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=262164

The reason is that the guild's total renown-gathering potential (or basically, the equivalent number of accounts the guild has due to the bonus), assuming each player gains the same amount of renown, will actually decrease beyond a certain point because the bonus proportionally decreases faster than the accounts increase. For example, in going from 20 to 21 accounts, the number of accounts increase by 5%:

(21 accounts - 20 accounts) / (20 accounts before additional account) = 1/20 = 5%

However, in doing so, the bonus decreases by about 8%:

bonus at 20 accounts = 90% => renown multiplier is 1.9
bonus at 21 accounts = 75% => renown multiplier is 1.75

(1.75 - 1.9) / (1.9) = -0.15/1.9 = -3/38 = -7.9%

Thus when multiplied together, the guild will actually lose about 3.3% of its renown-gathering potential, which discourages a small guild from increasing beyond a certain size, unless there's enough applicants to push the guild past 40 accounts (which is the maximum equivalent guild size for a small guild in terms of its renown-gathering potential).

Update 7 brings with it the announcement of a medium guild renown bonus, and so this thread is (partially) to figure out what the renown bonus is for guilds of various sizes.

Currently, I've tested the renown bonus for guild sizes of up to 24 accounts. Although purely cosmetic:

1-6 accounts are considered a "very small guild"
7-16 accounts are considered a "small guild"
17 accounts and above are considered a "medium guild"

These are given in the renown gain messages.

From testing, the bonus for 1-16 accounts are unchanged. I've only tested up to 24 accounts so far, and thus far the bonus seems like:

#Acc Bonus
1 150.0%
2 180.0%
3 210.0%
4 240.0%
5 270.0%
6 300.0%
7 285.0%
8 270.0%
9 255.0%
10 240.0%
11 225.0%
12 210.0%
13 195.0%
14 180.0%
15 165.0%
16 150.0%
17 137.5%
18 125.0%
19 115.0%
20 105.0%
21 97.5%
22 90.0%
23 83.0%
24 76.0%

I should note that because the data is based mostly on heroic deeds and tales of valor, the actual percentages may be off by a little bit (1-2% or so).

The interesting thing is that if you now multiply (# accounts) with (1 + bonus%) to calculate the guild's renown-gathering potential, this results in:

#Acc Renown-gathering potential
1 2.50
2 5.60
3 9.30
4 13.60
5 18.50
6 24.00
7 26.95
8 29.60
9 31.95
10 34.00
11 35.75
12 37.20
13 38.35
14 39.20
15 39.75
16 40.00
17 40.38
18 40.50
19 40.85
20 41.00
21 41.48
22 41.80
23 42.09
24 42.24

As you can see, now, the renown-gathering potential continues to increase as it gains more accounts, which thus removes this dead zone at around 20-30 accounts. Based on the trend so far, it looks like the line will eventually equal the number of accounts at 50 accounts. In other words, it looks like what Turbine did was to draw a straight line from the equivalent renown-gathering potential of 40 accounts when a guild has 16 accounts, to 50 accounts at 50 accounts. So this way the renown-gathering potential of a guild, based on its account size, now looks like:

http://i898.photobucket.com/albums/ac182/Vanshilar/RenownGainU7.gif

Remember that thus far this is tested only up to 24 accounts and so the rest is extrapolation; I'll fill in with more tested data as I get them but there probably won't be more until the weekend.

In this way, post-Update 7, there shouldn't be a worry that if a guild inducts too many people, the renown gain would decrease. Now, in theory, if new recruits are just as prolific in getting renown as current members, a guild will always get more renown. Of course, it's still of little comfort when small guilds try to match up to 200-account or 500-account guilds, but at least, this will let small guilds be able to increase their size without worrying about renown gain.

As for other renown changes that I've noticed:

* On expelling a character (that is still active), the guild loses 25% of what that character had gained (total) in terms of renown. It is unknown if there is any penalty to expelling an inactive character (> 30 days).
* On a character quitting, he has the choice of leaving in good terms or leaving on bad terms. If he leaves on good terms, the guild loses 10% of whatever he had gained. If he leaves on bad terms, the guild loses 25% of whatever he had gained. This is an option that comes up with the player chooses to leave the guild. Note that the guild leader/officer expelling is equivalent to the character leaving on bad terms, in terms of renown loss.
* It is currently unknown if the total renown gain for each character is affected by renown decay. Hopefully the character's total renown gain *is* affected by renown decay (i.e. it also decreases over time) so that if he leaves, the amount that he takes with him is proportional to how much renown he gained relative to everyone else. Otherwise, if not, this is a big disadvantage to guilds who are approaching or at equilibrium, since players must gain renown every day to keep up with decay, yet if they leave they will take a huge chunk of renown with them (basically a portion of all the renown they had earned since Update 7). However, I don't know if Turbine thought ahead to this point about this.

Some analysis of these changes and other U7 changes:

These changes will heavily disadvantage those guilds that engage in "pump and dump", inducting newbies for their short-lived Korthos enthusiasm (the first few days that they try out the game) and then expelling the ones that don't come back after a few days. This will encourage guild member stability and decrease the turnover rate in those mega-guilds, which is probably a good thing.

Because guild renown decay in Update 7 will also keep track of "recently departed" accounts for up to 14 days, the higher level a guild is, the more consideration it will need to give to each prospective applicant (with regards to renown). If a level 50 guild (decay level-based multiplier of 93.75) loses an account, this represents a 93.75*14 = 1312 renown loss due to adding to the "recently departed" category for the next 14 days. If a level 80 guild (decay level-based multiplier of 985.6) loses an account, this represents a 985.6*14 = 13798 renown loss. In other words, a level 50 guild will basically lose 1312 renown for a prospective applicant that doesn't pan out, while a level 80 guild will lose almost 14k renown. This is something that the guild leader/officer will have to consider when he inducts a prospective applicant. Again, this encourages stable, longer-term relationships between members, and setting the bar higher for entry for high-renown, powergamer guilds. A low-level casual guild won't have to worry about this (since decay is so low at the lower levels), but this will be more of an issue for powergamer guilds that settle in at the higher levels.

And of course, because inactive accounts (> 30 days) will no longer be considered for renown decay nor renown bonus, this means that guilds that are willing to hold on to their inactive members until Update 7 arrives, will be able to keep those members in the guild without penalty unless they hit the 1000-character cap. This is a change that will favor the older, long-term guilds, as they are more likely to have inactive members still in the guild due to a storied past, and are more likely to currently be affected by the decay that those members incur.

my head just asploded

[MeliCat]

er interesting... so practically speaking...


if my guildie officier friend kicks my fellow guildie on a regular basis 'cos he's a cheeky sod... it doesn't matter unless she kicks *all* of his toons out because she hasn't kicked out his entire account, just the toon he is currently being cheeky on?


i dropped 6 characters from guild recently 'cos i don't play them much atm. that shouldn't matter either as both my accounts are currently (very) active and earning renown? or have i just penalised my guild in any renown those characters have earned in the last 2 weeks? do i have to wait 2 weeks on those characters before i drop them?



it's the account vs characters thing which really confuses me....

[MeliCat]

And of course, because inactive accounts (> 30 days) will no longer be considered for renown decay nor renown bonus, this means that guilds that are willing to hold on to their inactive members until Update 7 arrives, will be able to keep those members in the guild without penalty unless they hit the 1000-character cap. This is a change that will favor the older, long-term guilds, as they are more likely to have inactive members still in the guild due to a storied past, and are more likely to currently be affected by the decay that those members incur.

I like this bit if it is indeed true.

To remember departed friends is to cherish life. And in some cases these people are truly departed completely and it is a way to remember them.

I would like this confirmed.

[TheDearLeader]

Your graphs are impressive. I'd +1 you for usage of pictures, but apparently I need to spread more around before giving it to you again -.-

[Vanshilar]

So this good/bad term thing is there to protect people from being maliciously kicked from a guild, because they'd take more of the renown with them? But is there any reason for someone leaving on his own to pick "good" terms, except just to be nice? And would the guild officers know what he picked?

It differentiates between guild members who quit due to real life issues, no longer interested in playing the game, etc., versus those who quit because they don't like the guild or internal drama, etc. The amount of renown removed is shown to the player, but other members in the guild (IIRC) do not see the amount taken off, unless they were spamming "O" or something. So the rest of the guild won't know which choice was picked, no.


my head just asploded

Have you tried here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2701840&postcount=1), here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2774873&postcount=1), here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3121774&postcount=1), here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2970590&postcount=3), here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3175327&postcount=3), or here (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3275608&postcount=1)?


if my guildie officier friend kicks my fellow guildie on a regular basis 'cos he's a cheeky sod... it doesn't matter unless she kicks *all* of his toons out because she hasn't kicked out his entire account, just the toon he is currently being cheeky on?

The renown decreased on an expel/quit is based on the amount that that particular character earned. When a character rejoins the guild, the amount earned is reset back to 0.

[MeliCat]

The renown decreased on an expel/quit is based on the amount that that particular character earned. When a character rejoins the guild, the amount earned is reset back to 0.

so MrCheeky has earned say 100 000 renown in the last 30 days on that particular character. only that particular character is expelled. the guild loses 25 000 renown based off the last 30 days (or is it just that day?).

MrCheeky rejoins the guild 5 mins later when he apologises. ... and here's the bit i don't get "the amount earned is reset back to 0" - are you saying that his renown counter is set back to zero so that it looks like he's earned 0 renown on that character? i guess it doesn't matter because the renown is not his the guild has scored 75 000 renown off him previously. as long as the guild doesn't lose another 75 000 'cos that would be silly.

either way i guess we're going to have to think up new and horrible things to do to MrCheeky when he's being an A-hat.

[Gremmlynn]

What is the effect of players deleting characters, is re-rolling getting a penalty now?

[Coldin]

Nice work on the graphs. Clearly adding the medium size guild bonus evens out the advantages and disadvantages of a larger guild. I think that plus inactive accounts will really make the renown a better system.



What is the effect of players deleting characters, is re-rolling getting a penalty now?

They count against the guild as far as accounts goes. Would be nice if deleted characters were omitted from being a recent departure.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

Excellent analysis. New booting rules seem to disadvantage permadeath...?

Garth

[RTN]

According to information in the Lamannia forums, the removal penalty applies to accounts, not characters (unless that account only had one character in the guild).

[MeliCat]

According to information in the Lamannia forums, the removal penalty applies to accounts, not characters (unless that account only had one character in the guild).

See this is what I don't get.

When MrCheeky in my example above gets booted for being an A-hat that's only 1 charcter - not all the characters on that account that are in guild.

So no renown penalty exists?

Do you only get that screen 'leaving on bad terms or leaving on good terms?' when the last character from that account leaves - or when each character leaves?

Does the boot penalty to MrCheeky apply only to that character? Or to all the characters that MrCheeky has in guild that got renwon in the last month? ie renown accumlated by entire account to that guild?

What if they have some characters in one guild and some in another? The entire amount of renown earned has been given across 2 guilds - I think it unlikely they're going to remember and calculate back a percentage based only on the guild MrCheeky is being booted from.

I would really like to understand this better please.

[Vanshilar]

I think you have to differentiate between how the guild account size is modified (when an account leaves, it'll count as "recently left" for the next 14 days), versus what happens when a character leaves the guild. In the latter case, the amount of renown lost depends on how much the character itself had gained, regardless of the account. It's based on how much that character has gained during their entire time in the guild, as far as is known. It's not known if the amount gained is affected by renown decay.

I'll check this weekend to verify that it's character only not account-based, as well as what happens when a character in guild deletes.

P.S. I just thought of an interesting implication of this "recently left" accounts thing. If you get blind invited to a guild, just join and leave. You won't have contributed any renown, so you also won't be able to take any renown, however, your account will then count on their "recently left" thing for the next two weeks, which increases their renown decay (if they're level 26 or higher) and decreases their small guild renown bonus (if they're less than 50 accounts). Hopefully this mechanism will cut down on blind invites; I thought of this because in the time it took me to write the above, while my character was logging in, I was blind invited twice by a guild I had never heard of -- which I finally saw once I got past the loading screen.

Far as I know right now, there's no renown lost for a declined guild invite. However, I did it by mail, to a different character on the same account, and my Lamannia guild is very low-level, so my testing is not very thorough thus far. But at least, accepting the invite and then leaving will increase their modified account size, so hopefully this is also Turbine's way of cutting down on blind invites.

[ericrd]

so my understanding of this (which may be incorrect )is that larger guilds should not recruit new players and also what is 1000 mem cap penalty and the 14day exmember thing is that applied everyday or once

[kernal42]

Far as I know right now, there's no renown lost for a declined guild invite. However, I did it by mail, to a different character on the same account, and my Lamannia guild is very low-level, so my testing is not very thorough thus far. But at least, accepting the invite and then leaving will increase their modified account size, so hopefully this is also Turbine's way of cutting down on blind invites.

An interesting point. However, this only affects guilds that blind-invite and have fewer than 50 accounts. I would imagine that most guilds engaging in blind-invite practices would pass the 50-account mark quickly enough for this additional mechanic to not be an issue.

Cheers,
Kernal

[Vanshilar]

* I've tested the bonus up to 49 modified accounts now. It looks like it does follow the progression given above, within rounding error anyway. However, most of the testing was done with heroic deeds, so don't know how closely Turbine follows the above. For what it's worth, with 49 accounts, I got an impressive trophy that gave 500 + 7 renown, which works out to 1.4%-1.6% renown bonus (depending on rounding), while the theoretical amount is 1.44%. I guess that'll have to wait until Update 7 comes out and there's more data on this, because it takes a while to run around getting renown until a legendary shows up to see the actual values they used.


What is the effect of players deleting characters, is re-rolling getting a penalty now?

* On deleting a character, there is no renown loss (directly), i.e. you don't suffer the 25% or 10% loss than you do if the character was expelled/quit. However, if that character's account had no other characters in the guild, it does count as a recent departure. Both were tested on Lamannia.


An interesting point. However, this only affects guilds that blind-invite and have fewer than 50 accounts. I would imagine that most guilds engaging in blind-invite practices would pass the 50-account mark quickly enough for this additional mechanic to not be an issue.

It affects guilds that 1) have fewer than 50 accounts and/or 2) are level 26 or above (and taking renown decay). A guild that does have more than 50 accounts is going to level up to 26 and beyond fairly rapidly. Of course, early on, the renown decay isn't much, but if they do a lot of blind invites then it'll start adding up eventually. Also, a guild where there's few active accounts but lots of "recent departure" accounts is going to level up slowly, since they won't get the benefit of the small/medium guild renown bonus. So yeah, it's sort of neat in that way, once Update 7 arrives I'll be joining guilds then leaving right away if I get blind invites. Let them learn the hard way not to blind invite :D

[Zeto]

Players should keep a majority of their earned GP imo as a hedge against being randomly kicked out of a guild. When you are a member of a large guild there is a higher and higher probability of being randomly booted by an officer and you, as an individual, are left with nothing.

Doesn't this system also promote people griefing guilds into adding them and then dropping? Then find another officer and do it again. A solid group of griefers could cause problems in this system.

[Phax]

Players should keep a majority of their earned GP imo as a hedge against being randomly kicked out of a guild. When you are a member of a large guild there is a higher and higher probability of being randomly booted by an officer and you, as an individual, are left with nothing.

Doesn't this system also promote people griefing guilds into adding them and then dropping? Then find another officer and do it again. A solid group of griefers could cause problems in this system.

The recent departures is counted per account, so you'd either need to have A) a large group of people all conspiring for the greif or B) spend a lot of time creating new accounts. And anyway, this would probably be considered harassment (don't know for sure).

[QueenPennyThe1st]

1. When you refer to "accounts" does that indicate the individual player who may have 10+ characters in the guild, or does that refer to each individual character?
just to clarify, a thousand real life people who have multiple characters is the cap for a guild. I really hope you don't think me an idiot for asking but I am dealing with a large guild full of opinionated people who need complete clarification which cannot be misinterpreted.

2. When a player, one who has multiple characters in a guild, decides to kill off a character to build another in that slot, does that effect the decay of renown, or is that only effected if the player removes all its characters from the guild.

Thank you for your time and all the hard work you have put into this Thread. You are greatly appreciated in my book.

Moonhair Guild Leader
Pay It Forward, Sarlona

[Vanshilar]

1. When you refer to "accounts" does that indicate the individual player who may have 10+ characters in the guild, or does that refer to each individual character?
just to clarify, a thousand real life people who have multiple characters is the cap for a guild. I really hope you don't think me an idiot for asking but I am dealing with a large guild full of opinionated people who need complete clarification which cannot be misinterpreted.

By "accounts" I'm referring to the individual player, not the number of characters. Although technically an individual player can have multiple accounts. Basically it's the login account. Although yes, the maximum number in the guild is the number of characters, not accounts. But in terms of renown decay and small/medium guild renown bonus, it is the number of accounts that matters.


2. When a player, one who has multiple characters in a guild, decides to kill off a character to build another in that slot, does that effect the decay of renown, or is that only effected if the player removes all its characters from the guild.

If the character quits the guild, then yes, the guild loses a portion of the renown that that character had gained. If the character directly deletes however without quitting the guild, then it looks like no renown is lost (this was tested on Lamannia). However, it is unknown if this is intended or a bug.

In either case, if the account had other characters in the guild, then this does not count as a recent departure, and so does not increase the modified account size. However, if the account did not have other characters in the guild, then this will count as a recent departure and thus increase the modified account size.

Currently (or when I last tested on Lamannia), there is a bug with this, which I've already bug reported. It is that when the character is the only character from its account in the guild, and leaves the guild. The guild's modified account size will increase -- which is fine. However, when that character rejoins the guild, then the account will count as both an "active account" and a "recent departure", basically double-counted. It looks like Turbine forgot to make a check for if this account is under the "recent departure" list (and to remove it from the list if so) when a new account joins the guild.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Players should keep a majority of their earned GP imo as a hedge against being randomly kicked out of a guild. When you are a member of a large guild there is a higher and higher probability of being randomly booted by an officer and you, as an individual, are left with nothing.

Doesn't this system also promote people griefing guilds into adding them and then dropping? Then find another officer and do it again. A solid group of griefers could cause problems in this system.

I think both of these problems can only occur in a badly run guild, the size doesn't matter.

You won't get "random kicks" by an officer in a well run large guild, or that officer will find their status revoked if the rest don't agree.

Same thing for the quit/reinvite thing, you might get one invite back, but no guild worth being in will give you more chances than that.

Maybe what you are worried about are those mass guilds that invite all and officer almost everyone? If so, they deserve lower rep anyway.

[Natashaelle]

...

+1 rep, same as everyone else :)

Nice work there btw, and helpful.

[Backley]

Here's another data point:
Modified Account Size: 46 (50 Active - 4 Inactive + 0 Recent Departures)
(Guild): Your guild has earned 530 renown. (500 base + 30 medium guild bonus!)

[KelticKing]

Thanks for the info. Seems the devs at ddo enjoy telling people how they should run their guilds based upon the renown format.

[Seren24]

This is supposed to be a game not a fricking mathematics course!!