The Golddigger

[Irinis]

Pure 20 STR-based Melee... Spellsinger?
(Inspired by this thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=276665).)

This dumb blonde loves the life of an adventurer and ain't no trophy wife, but she loves sweet-talking the locals into giving her better deals on those little luxuries when she's back in town.

Human
(or Half-Elf but haven't been able to load Lammania client to test build stats)
TWF Heavy Pick (Master's Touch or Dilettante)/Rapier

STR 36 (16 +5 levels +2 tome +7 epic +3 exc +1 Human +2 rage spell)
DEX 24 (15 +2 tome +7 epic)
CON 26 (15 +6 item +1 Human +2 exc +2 rage spell)
INT 10 (8 +2 tome)
WIS 14 (8 +6 item)
CHA 26 (14 +2 Bard +2 Capstone +7 epic +1 exc)

8 Feats:

Toughness, Extend, Least Mark of Finding (if Human), Maximize, TWF, ITWF, Power Attack, GTWF

(Obviously the Dragonmark is just speculation right now...)

Skills:

Every level: Balance, Concentration, Haggle, Perform, Move Silently, UMD
On first level, 2 into Move Silently, 2 into Tumble
After level 8 add: Spot (to see hidden enemies)

Enhancements:

Spellsinger II and prerequisites
For the extra 200 SP, Mana Regen Song, and bonus to Haggle
Attack/Damage III
Wand and Scroll Mastery II+

VARIATIONS:

The Dragonmark is probably just fluff, so the feats for a Human would look more like this:
Toughness, Extend, Maximize, TWF, ITWF, IC:Pierce, Power Attack, GTWF.

The build doesn't totally need the capstone, so balance +1/+1 stronger songs against 2 Fighter levels for extra DPS feats and maybe fitting in Quicken for certain healing situations.

[Aerendil]

You'll want Heighten.
And possibly a SF:Enchantment or 2.
And maybe even a Spell Penetration feat.

Thing is, to be a good caster in DDO you need a good number of metamagics.
And to be a good meleer in DDO, you need a good number of the combat feats (TWF/ITWF/GTWF, I:Crit, PA = 5 feats instantly gone).

Finding a balance between the two is REALLY hard as a result.
Hence why you don't see too many melee Spellsingers.

For what it's worth, I'd ditch PA and possibly even GTWF. You'll mostly only be meleeing when solo, and as a Spellsinger it's more efficient to Hold Monster your target or Otto's it, then beat it up (in which case you don't need super melee skills). And with the new regerating SP song, you can afford to do this a lot more.

Definitely ditch the Mark of Finding too, by the way.

Anyways, just my 2cp.

*edit* - one further thing is that you'll want max, or as close to max starting as possible, CHA.
A spellsinger that can't land any of his/her spells is simply a gimped Warchanter!

[Irinis]

Hmm and while I'm at it put all level ups into CHA instead of STR, and start with max CHA like my other Spellsinger.... in other words, thanks for missing the entire concept of the build. ;)

I guess it really IS that set in stone in the community that Spellsingers do CC and Warchanters do melee, huh?

[Renegade66]

You asked that I post my current Virtuso build, so here it is.

The key is having twin Epic Dynastic Falcatas. In addition to being high to-hit and damage weapons, they give +7 CHA and a Red Slot so that you can make them Good Aligned and bypass quite a bit of DR out there. They also have True Law and Axiomatic Burst for more damage and DR bypassing.

The best though is that they use your CHA modifier to hit AND to damage. STR is not used, so my 44+ Charisma is effectively the same as a fighter with 44+ STR.

There are many DPS Bards out there. However, they are all splash builds that give up something on the Bard side. My build is pure Bard, so with the high CHA make them very powerful for spell DCs, spell points, number of spells and song DCs. I have about 30 songs that are nearly 9 minutes in length too.

I hit just as hard or even harder than mixed breed DPS Bards because I do have improved crit slash and greater two weapon fighting feats. I give up a bit against mobs needing Silver to bypass DR since I don't have Min II weapons and they wouldn't help me if I did. I feel though that I gain much more as a cha based, pure bard than I give up on dps vs. silver based DR mobs.

If you're willing to grind the Epic Falcata's then you can't beat the build. I'm not too happy with the Virtuoso PrE, so I'm considering swapping over to Spell Singer. I haven't decided yet though.

Other Gear:
- Epic Vulkoorim Fighting Leathers
- Cloak of Curses (Enchantment Focus + Curses Stuff and Removes curses). If not needing Enchantment Focus then I swap out for Wretched Twilight with a bit more Sneak Attack than the Leathers provide.
- Shintao Necklace and Ring w/ +2 CHA.
- Occult Slayer belt and Ring w/ +2 CON.
- Concordant Opposition HP Boots
- Spectral Gloves or Vile Blasphemy
- Mana and CHA Skills Bracers
- Litany of the Dead Trinket
- Minos Legens Helm
- Mentau Goggles (Seeker +4)

Feats (No room/str for Power Attack):
Toughness
Extend
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Impr Crit Slash
Heighten
Khopesh Proficiency

I don't remember the starting stats, but it was probably Max CHA and the rest in CON.

[Tuney]

Well as a pure melee spell singer , even with the songs you know your CC will be bad. So It will be best to pick up and only really use Irristable. But other then that you'll have better SR pen then the avg melee focused Bard builds as they tend to War chanters and splash levels.

It is basicaly like building a War chanter that is specced to be a support/CC build. All the PrE does for a bard saying it is more 'effective' to go this path but you can still go any way you want. At least that is how it will be for the first two tiers, depending on the requirements and bonuses of the tier 3 you may have to be more 'melee' or 'spell casting' focused at that time. But tier 2 bonuses still are that give bonuses to that type of play but still are required.

Though Using Picks with out Improved Critical though makes me wonder. And Renegade's Virt bard uses the same weapon I'll one day make for my self though I don't Duel wield because I love the darn Light and darkness!

[bartosy]

You can still be a decent healer if you get quicken on this build because you got the sp song and +200 sp and -10% sp song but the cc wont do a lot of good for you :(

and yea i agree on the virtuoso part :(

[Tuney]

Well if he goes human, he can try and find a way to squeeze quicken into his build. He has Maximize , the build can't nor should try to be a main healer but can provide quite nice emergancy spot healing with Maximize.

[Irinis]

Though Using Picks with out Improved Critical though makes me wonder.

I know... would love to fit that in. Not so bad when using MinII's but would be so much better for Earthgrabs.

Maximize is needed for Spellsinger prereqs. Human could fit in IC:Pierce rather than the Dragonmark (which is probably sheer fluff anyway hehe) by moving up all the other feats prior to level 12 and taking it then.

Toughness, Extend, Maximize, TWF, ITWF, IC:Pierce, Power Attack, GTWF.

Of course, this build doesn't really NEED the capstone either, so could easily fit in a Fighter level or two and pick up two more feats. Quicken would be a definite, then.

PS: Tuney, I'm female! And this character is obviously female also! :p

PPS: Thanks Ren! (Wrong thread :p)

[Renegade66]

PPS: Thanks Ren! (Wrong thread :p)

Ahh, sorry. Feel free to copy and paste.

[BoBoDaClown]

You asked that I post my current Virtuso build, so here it is.

The key is having twin Epic Dynastic Falcatas. In addition to being high to-hit and damage weapons, they give +7 CHA and a Red Slot so that you can make them Good Aligned and bypass quite a bit of DR out there. They also have True Law and Axiomatic Burst for more damage and DR bypassing.

The best though is that they use your CHA modifier to hit AND to damage. STR is not used, so my 44+ Charisma is effectively the same as a fighter with 44+ STR.

There are many DPS Bards out there. However, they are all splash builds that give up something on the Bard side. My build is pure Bard, so with the high CHA make them very powerful for spell DCs, spell points, number of spells and song DCs. I have about 30 songs that are nearly 9 minutes in length too.

I hit just as hard or even harder than mixed breed DPS Bards because I do have improved crit slash and greater two weapon fighting feats. I give up a bit against mobs needing Silver to bypass DR since I don't have Min II weapons and they wouldn't help me if I did. I feel though that I gain much more as a cha based, pure bard than I give up on dps vs. silver based DR mobs.

If you're willing to grind the Epic Falcata's then you can't beat the build. I'm not too happy with the Virtuoso PrE, so I'm considering swapping over to Spell Singer. I haven't decided yet though.

Other Gear:
- Epic Vulkoorim Fighting Leathers
- Cloak of Curses (Enchantment Focus + Curses Stuff and Removes curses). If not needing Enchantment Focus then I swap out for Wretched Twilight with a bit more Sneak Attack than the Leathers provide.
- Shintao Necklace and Ring w/ +2 CHA.
- Occult Slayer belt and Ring w/ +2 CON.
- Concordant Opposition HP Boots
- Spectral Gloves or Vile Blasphemy
- Mana and CHA Skills Bracers
- Litany of the Dead Trinket
- Minos Legens Helm
- Mentau Goggles (Seeker +4)

Feats (No room/str for Power Attack):
Toughness
Extend
TWF
ITWF
GTWF
Impr Crit Slash
Heighten
Khopesh Proficiency

I don't remember the starting stats, but it was probably Max CHA and the rest in CON.

Hmmmmmmmm cool build.

[Aerendil]

Hmm and while I'm at it put all level ups into CHA instead of STR, and start with max CHA like my other Spellsinger.... in other words, thanks for missing the entire concept of the build. ;)

I guess it really IS that set in stone in the community that Spellsingers do CC and Warchanters do melee, huh?

Trust me, I didn't miss the point of the post. I get it.
I'm posting advice because what you're trying isn't new. People have tried for YEARS now to make a good melee Bard that has effective spells too. And trust me, I've wanted to make the same in the past. Simple fact is, the way DDO is set up with outrageous stats, saves, and spell resistance, if you want to be an effective caster you *have* to take all of those spell metamagics and gear yourself 100% towards casting.
It's not like in Pen and Paper where you can do a little bit of everything and be pretty good at all of them; in DDO you need to really specialize in order to be effective. Which is unfortunate, but hey... just giving you the truth.

But hey, like I said, build a full melee SS and try it out for yourself.


Of course, this build doesn't really NEED the capstone either, so could easily fit in a Fighter level or two and pick up two more feats. Quicken would be a definite, then.

See comments above which pretty much answers this.
Again, sorry to be the voice of bad news, and it's nothing personal I assure you... but if you want to be a good Spellsinger, you want to stay pure, put level ups into CHA, and get the capstone.
But something tells me you're going to do your own thing anyways!

[BoBoDaClown]

Pure 20 STR-based Melee... Spellsinger?
(Inspired by this thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=276665).)

This dumb blonde loves the life of an adventurer and ain't no trophy wife, but she loves sweet-talking the locals into giving her better deals on those little luxuries when she's back in town.

Human
(or Half-Elf but haven't been able to load Lammania client to test build stats)
TWF Heavy Pick (Master's Touch or Dilettante)/Rapier

STR 36 (16 +5 levels +2 tome +7 epic +3 exc +1 Human +2 rage spell)
DEX 24 (15 +2 tome +7 epic)
CON 26 (15 +6 item +1 Human +2 exc +2 rage spell)
INT 10 (8 +2 tome)
WIS 14 (8 +6 item)
CHA 26 (14 +2 Bard +2 Capstone +7 epic +1 exc)

8 Feats:

Toughness, Extend, Least Mark of Finding (if Human), Maximize, TWF, ITWF, Power Attack, GTWF

(Obviously the Dragonmark is just speculation right now...)

Skills:

Every level: Balance, Concentration, Haggle, Perform, Move Silently, UMD
On first level, 2 into Move Silently, 2 into Tumble
After level 8 add: Spot (to see hidden enemies)

Enhancements:

Spellsinger II and prerequisites
For the extra 200 SP, Mana Regen Song, and bonus to Haggle
Attack/Damage III
Wand and Scroll Mastery II+

VARIATIONS:

The Dragonmark is probably just fluff, so the feats for a Human would look more like this:
Toughness, Extend, Maximize, TWF, ITWF, IC:Pierce, Power Attack, GTWF.

The build doesn't totally need the capstone, so balance +1/+1 stronger songs against 2 Fighter levels for extra DPS feats and maybe fitting in Quicken for certain healing situations.

I'd drop the DM for improve crit. Other than that, looks good.

[valorik]

I don't quite get the point in goin spellsinger if you don't have quicken to heal in combat, otherwise you're just a huge sp somewhat gimpy melee. Obviously if you're a human I'd drop mark of finding for it, otherwise I'd drop extend for it, you'll have plenty of sp to keep the haste going and you don't need it for your cc spells like ottos and suggestion.

edit* also noticed that you have no IC, I'd stick with human and drop both dragonmark and extend.

[Tuney]

My virt bard is specced for healing and Doesn't have Quicken. QUICKEN IS ONLY A REQUIRED HEALING FEAT FOR BATTLE HEALERS or wanting to use Mass Heal as a primary means of healing.

Notice I said Battle healers, they are the kind who like to use the weapon they are wielding to cause blood to spill not as a focus for spell casting.

A Spell Singer because of the tier 1 and 2 bonuses and requirements does not have to focus on being a CC BUT the requirements to give a nice boon to healing. Because of using Maximize as the required feat to get spell singer and lack of the 'power healing spells.' Idealy this build is better for Emergancy Healing with Max on or After battle treatment to allow the primary healers (If there are any in the group) to save SP and regen more with the SP regen song going.

I'd keep Extend because the only offensive spell that can be realistly used is Irriestable with its HORRABLE durration.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

The key is having twin Epic Dynastic Falcatas. In addition to being high to-hit and damage weapons, they give +7 CHA and a Red Slot so that you can make them Good Aligned and bypass quite a bit of DR out there. They also have True Law and Axiomatic Burst for more damage and DR bypassing.

The best though is that they use your CHA modifier to hit AND to damage. STR is not used, so my 44+ Charisma is effectively the same as a fighter with 44+ STR.
I don't remember the starting stats, but it was probably Max CHA and the rest in CON.

This is an all around great build. Was thinking about a build like this since Epic Dynastic Falcatas were released. I actually built something around these weapons for someone and went warchanter. However, with the release of the new PrEs, I think Spellsinger synergizes much better with what your trying to accomplish here.

Very nice job.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Irinis, must say I like your concept here :) (love the spellsinger PrE choice) but imo you are spread out here just a bit too far. Imp crit is essential on the dps side. Quicken/Maximize combo would be very nice on the healing and CC sides. One way to go is to start with extend to assist you early in your build life, then swap it out in the upper levels for quicken.

Other then that looks great!

[Irinis]

Yeah I think the variation without the Dragonmark in order to get Imp Crit would be the way to go if I actually built this. Looks fun. Torn on keeping the capstone or taking 18/2 with levels of Fighter to fit in more feats. It's difficult to give up the capstone when it's not just the capstone anymore, it's also +1 attack and damage!

Aerendil, I'm actually not trying to have effective CC spells here. I'm trying to build a MELEE Bard that happens to have the Spellsinger PrE for +200 healing SP and a bonus to UMD to offset the lower CHA. You have missed the point twice now by assuming that because it's taking Spellsinger it must do CC. It's not doing CC! Try reading the thread I linked in the first post and look at this build again - without preconceptions.

Nowhere in the first post have I even mentioned CC, spell DC's, or anything of the like. MELEE.

[voodoogroves]

I'm seriously considering melee spellsinger for my 'forged on his TR, but it's likely to be a THF build - far less feat investment.

[Aerendil]

Aerendil, I'm actually not trying to have effective CC spells here. I'm trying to build a MELEE Bard that happens to have the Spellsinger PrE for +200 healing SP and a bonus to UMD to offset the lower CHA. You have missed the point twice now by assuming that because it's taking Spellsinger it must do CC. It's not doing CC! Try reading the thread I linked in the first post and look at this build again - without preconceptions.

Nowhere in the first post have I even mentioned CC, spell DC's, or anything of the like. MELEE.

Hmm, gotcha. It would seem that perhaps I did miss the point of your build :) haha. So you're essentially swapping Weapon Focus out for Maximize and going with SP regen / extra SP over a slightly better Inspire Courage, Ironskin Chant, and the upcoming double-strike song. It *could* work, although I'm still somewhat hesitant about it... let us know if/when you build it and how it works out, as I am curious.

I do love the melee spellsinger idea, though, but would be more inclined to just pick up I:Crit and TWF and go epic dynastic falcatas. Full metamagics so I can Hold Person/Monster or Otto's first, and then safely melee away.
Fingers crossed though that we'll one day be able to effectively dps via Bard spells :p

[Zachski]

The bard community has already sort of dismissed the doublestrike song as being worthless. And truth be told, trading immunity to critical hits for a 5% double strike chance does not seem like a fair trade.

Anyways, regarding the build... I dunno, for some reason, when I heard Golddigger, I thought of a miner, and when I think of miners, I think of dwarves XD But I suppose that concept works, too.

[Robi3.0]

Thinks: Irinis may have a grumpy gus stalker. :(


/realreason for coming to this thread





http://idolator.com/assets/resources/2008/09/kanye_west_shades.jpg

Listen, Irinis I'ma gunna to let you finish, but I just wanted everyone to know that Renegade66 has one of the best melee bards of ALL TIME!


/cue hiphop beat

I ain't saying she's a gold digger, but she ain't messing with no broke .....

[jsaving]

I like the idea of a melee-based spellsinger, Irinis, and I think you've done a nice job laying out a viable build along those lines. I've been wrestling with how to do this myself so I thank you for the ideas you've provided! :)

Melee spellsingers usually end up being stretched too thin, with subpar weapon DPS coupled with subpar casting. You overcome this problem by throwing away crowd-control casting entirely and essentially adopting the stats and feats of a standard TWF warchanter. I think this is the right way to go, but I wonder whether you've gone quite far enough. Your "variant" build that replaces the lesser mark with improved critical seems almost mandatory if you're going to dish out a reasonable amount of weapon DPS. I think you could also make a case for replacing extend with khopesh, though I personally like the convenience of having extend on my bard builds.

Finally, I agree with you that the capstone isn't as important for your build as it is for some. A fighter splash would be the most conventional approach, and it would certainly give you some breathing room for "somewhat useful" feats like quicken. But I wonder whether you've thought about a variant where you'd splash rogue for survivability and search/disarm? You'd probably want to shift 2 stat points from CHA to INT if you went this route, but I don't see that an initial charisma of 12 would harm your build concept in a significant way.

This is one of the most thought-provoking builds I've seen in some time and I wish you the best of luck as you go forward with this character.

[Irinis]

Thanks, it was Samadhi's idea I just wrote out a build for it. The first one is a bit of a "flavour" build, and the "variant" is the actual serious if-you-wanna-play-this build.

[dogonovo]

Opinions from a beginner so you milleage WILL vary =)

I took my lvl 14 CHA/CC/Heal based Spellsinger to Lamannia and LR'd him. STR 18 DEX 08 CON 16 WIS 08 INT 08 CHA 14, level ups in STR. Same feats he had but took Maximize instead of SF: Enchant and Power attack instead of Heighten, traded every CC spell in his spellbook for a utility/buff alternative. Effectively I traded CC/DCs for STR/dmg. Got Spellsinger II too obviously. Didnt change a single item in his equipment.

What I can say is that in areas/quests where before I had to be very careful and really worry about not using all my SP, now he can just enter, buff and rush. More survivability (due to MUCH faster killing), more improvements for the party (spell slots not occupied by CC spells, more SP for healing, etc) and definetly a better sense of contribution. Not that I personally didnt/dont like CC, but my limited experience in parties tells that CC is good to have (as most things are) but absolutely not a must. And by reading the forums I believe CC in epics is restricted to Irressistible (no save), Fascinate (no significant change in my DC) and spells that dont belong to the bard spell list (mass hold, mass comand, etc).

All in all I am happy, he can heal better than before, fight better than before and that darned oversized kobold in Mired In Kobolds will not laugh at the lonely bard entering her hoard chamber anymore ^^ (tho the second dragon still has bragging rights and at least 45% HP left...).


PS - Would love more experienced advice on the Empower Healing + Empower/Maximize. Which combination makes for more cost-efficient heals at lvl 20? Is one or the other (or both) particularly useful or a must have for parts of the game I havent experienced yet? Thanks already

[Aashrym]

PS - Would love more experienced advice on the Empower Healing + Empower/Maximize. Which combination makes for more cost-efficient heals at lvl 20? Is one or the other (or both) particularly useful or a must have for parts of the game I havent experienced yet? Thanks already

Empower healing is a little more SP efficient than maximize healing. Maximize healing gives bigger bursts and is more efficient than no feat and less efficient than empower healing. I normally run both on my healing spell singer, but if you are going to only select one maximize is the better choice for when faster healing becomes a priority.

You can consider empower spell instead of empower healing. It helps healing and greater shout damage if you decide to take it, but it is less SP efficient than either maximize or empower healing on it's own, where maximize will also help with healing and greater shout. IE maximize is better in this case if you are only taking 1 feat.

Hopefully that helps. ;)

[dogonovo]

Thanks, but actually I am debating whether I should go for Emp Heal + Maximize OR Emp Heal + Empower Spell. Using two feats activated together Maximize costs more but I am not sure if it (Empower Healing + Maximize) is more SP efficient than the other alternative (Empower Heal + Empower Spell).

[Aashrym]

Thanks, but actually I am debating whether I should go for Emp Heal + Maximize OR Emp Heal + Empower Spell. Using two feats activated together Maximize costs more but I am not sure if it (Empower Healing + Maximize) is more SP efficient than the other alternative (Empower Heal + Empower Spell).

Empower Heal + Maximize Spell is more SP efficient than Empower Heal + Empower Spell AND gives you better burst healing. That is definitely better.

Edit: For clarification, I am referring to Cure Critical Wounds and higher level cure spells. Depending on level you may want to start with Empower heal first and take maximize after a bit.

[Irinis]

Actually, maximize and empower healing are equally efficient on a Bard because we don't get Heal or Mass Heal (which Maximize doesn't work on anyway). They are mathematically identical in terms of efficiency. Maximize is just bigger and that enables you to actually heal raids. It will also work on our one and only offensive spell, Greater Shout. (Whoop de do.)

If you can only take one, take Maximize. If you're taking more than that, you'll run out of SP very quickly on a non-max-CHA character and I haven't even bothered on my max CHA Spellsinger. Emp Heal + Emp is less efficient but would give you toggle options if you really want that. Personally I don't find it worth it. Now if we got actual offensive spells that worked, it'd be a different story. I'd be happy to trade some efficiency for being able to nuke. (Of course, that would make the Bard feat list even more tight than it already is... sigh.)

Dogonovo - Discoball is used in some epics and only works with a very high DC. My Diva build has only half the gear she needs for max DC, and they do still save sometimes. I had to equip a Greater Spell Focus: Enchant item to make it work at all at 36 CHA. Just got 38 CHA and still have to equip it. We'll see what happens at 40 and 42 CHA. :)

[Aashrym]

Empower Heal costs 20 SP for for the same amount of healing Maximize spell costs 25 SP for. Am I missing something I should be seeing?

And disco ball is awesome. ;)

PS: Cure critical wounds, for example costs 25 SP base. So it's 25 SP to cast it once. Adding 50% twice=100% more HP for 20 SP, which is cheaper than casting it twice. Maximize costs 25 SP. So a single maximize costs the same as casting it twice but only takes 1 cast. The same SP, same healing, faster healing, more efficient at that point.

Any time the SP cost < the base cost a player will save SP by using the meta feat, with the exception for over healing. I run both empowered healing and maximize healing because it's cheaper for the HP/SP cost than not having them up and saves me SP. This gets better with mass cure light and mass cure moderate. 35 base SP twice would give less HP than spending the same 35 SP on both feats and casting the spell once.

Hopefully that helps.

Edit: For empowered healing or empowered spell to be SP efficient the feat needs to cost less than half of the base cost of the spell. For maximize to be SP efficient the base cost needs to be 30 or more. I thought I better be clearer on that part. ;)

[BoBoDaClown]

My Diva build has only half the gear she needs for max DC, and they do still save sometimes. I had to equip a Greater Spell Focus: Enchant item to make it work at all at 36 CHA. Just got 38 CHA and still have to equip it. We'll see what happens at 40 and 42 CHA. :)

Interesting. WHat's your DC? 38? Once feat tokens go on sale I'm going to drop my spell focus enchant feats because I felt a DC of 40+ was a waste - this would leave me at 38+, have you found that not enough?

I tend to layer my disco balls with a mind fog (when I know the fight is coming up), which might grab the casters, but in all honestly I expect my ball to pick up the melees, and then I use Irresistible for the pesky casters.

[Irinis]

With 38 CHA, Greater Spell Focus: Enchant, Spellsong, and Staff of the Petitioner, 37 DC. They still save a bit more than I'd like. How are you getting 40+ DC?

[BoBoDaClown]

With 38 CHA, Greater Spell Focus: Enchant, Spellsong, and Staff of the Petitioner, 37 DC. They still save a bit more than I'd like. How are you getting 40+ DC?

Off the top of my head (and I don't usually do these calcs, so feel free to point out errors):

Cha:
18 Base
5 Level
9 Item (6+3)
4 Enhancements
3 Tome
2 Capstone
2 Yugo
---------
43
Situational Stuff:
+1 guild cha - use this frequently. Consider this reliable.
More Infrequently:
+1 -> +3 House D pots I tend to use the +1 pots (have heaps) when missing the guild buff to get me to 44. Only use the +2/+3s when needed/rarely/for fun.

So, normally running a 44 cha in a CC quest.

DC:
10 base
6 level
2 capstone
2 feats
2 weapon (spitter)
1 spellsong
17 cha bonus
------
40
Sometimes I grab a +1 guild enchant DC buff = 41.

Obviously missing key items (+7, +4tome, litany, +2 guild cha would be nice).

However, reason why I ask is I feel a DC of 40 is a little overkill. With my bard I tend to:
a) Heal in raids/epics. My Cha doesn't matter.
b) CC epics. Mobs rarely save (cept for high will ones of course).

So I was planning on dropping the two spell focus feats and my spell pen to pick up Empower Healing (to go with Maximise - yummy), and Power Attack and Improve Crit.

I was hoping this would make me a more rounded bard with very little CC sacrifice, but if you feel a DC of 37 (and note the difference between our DCs is basically buffs) isn't cutting it, then I'm a little hesitant about making the change.

:)

p.s. Just looked up Staff of P - hmmmmmm yummy. That 10% sp discount stacks? I still haven't done abbot - really going to have to get onto that.

[Aerendil]

Also keep in mind that Maximize works on offensive spells too and not just healing spells.

If and when Bards ever get a bigger spell list and can choose some more sonic/DD spells, this may be prove very useful.
There were tests a year or so ago on maximized Greater Shouts with the best gear you can get, and the damage wasn't all that bad. Just horribly inefficient with SP.

[Aashrym]

Also keep in mind that Maximize works on offensive spells too and not just healing spells.

If and when Bards ever get a bigger spell list and can choose some more sonic/DD spells, this may be prove very useful.
There were tests a year or so ago on maximized Greater Shouts with the best gear you can get, and the damage wasn't all that bad. Just horribly inefficient with SP.

Casting greater shout (35 SP) and get 2x damage for 25 SP seems cheaper than caster greater shout twice for 70 SP. Was that comparison to wiz/sorc spells?

Edit: NVM, ran a simple spreadsheet and Maximize is less efficient for total damage inflicted per SP for greater shout when including equipment. Math skills for the win :D.

[BigButter]

Off the top of my head (and I don't usually do these calcs, so feel free to point out errors):

DC:
10 base
6 level <--------------------------------------



BoBo---it looks like you might be running with Heighten (see bold/underlined/arrowed in your above msg)?? Irinis didn't cite that in her DC calcs so that's -1 for the Mind Fog, -2 for the Disco Balls and -2, iirc, for the single-target Hold. That possibly accounts for some of the variation in your comparison/results with her experience of Disco Ball not totally crushing.

I'm running my CHA-based, capped, un-heightened SS with only a 36 CHA (no Yugo, no Guild buffs, no +3 exc, and no +3 or +4 tomes). I've got the Dreamspitter, both SF: Enchants, and my Spellsong up. Again running unheightened, I can solo Epic Carnivals up to boss battles using Fascinate to stop the room, Irresistible on the casters, and Single-Target Hold to get trash melees and archers to auto-crit so I don't fall asleep chipping away at a full-health epic mob with 24 STR (raged). It takes long enough beating on the dancing casters even with the Epic Antique Greataxe and Imp Crit: Slashing.

The single-target hold and disco ball is only DC 34 with my setup and it isn't where I would like it, although it is still pretty darn 'doable.' Mobs save more at the outset and break free earlier than I want them to (even after woo-wooing them down a few neg levels with the Spitter) but it takes 1-2 re-casts too often I'd say.

It's probably pretty clear that no one wants DC34 for epic or Amrath CC, in my experience, as a long-term play style. I'm going to swap out my Spell Pen feat for Heighten and play with those soloing epics to see if I can tell a difference (both in stickiness of DC-based spells and Spell pen failures on Otto's Irresistible---I know Ol' Faithful Fascinate will still be there :D).


So I was planning on dropping the two spell focus feats and my spell pen to pick up Empower Healing (to go with Maximise - yummy), and Power Attack and Improve Crit.

I was hoping this would make me a more rounded bard with very little CC sacrifice, but if you feel a DC of 37 (and note the difference between our DCs is basically buffs) isn't cutting it, then I'm a little hesitant about making the change.



If I were betting with your character, your money and your plat :D, my hunch is that DC 37-39 is a sweet spot for now depending upon each player's preference/tolerance. If you can get to 44 CHA regularly, I'd say go for it and dump your Greater Sp Focus and pick up Imp Crit: whatever you want or go healnutz with Emp. Healing on top of your Maximize. Easy for me to say though!

@Irinis: Could you confirm that you are running un-heightened and then again what your experience is with your DC's now that you've moved up to 38 CHA???

Thanks!

[BoBoDaClown]

BoBo---it looks like you might be running with Heighten (see bold/underlined/arrowed in your above msg)?? Irinis didn't cite that in her DC calcs so that's -1 for the Mind Fog, -2 for the Disco Balls and -2, iirc, for the single-target Hold. That possibly accounts for some of the variation in your comparison/results with her experience of Disco Ball not totally crushing.

@Irinis: Could you confirm that you are running un-heightened and then again what your experience is with your DC's now that you've moved up to 38 CHA???

Thanks!

I'd say she runs with Heighten and the difference of 3DC come from charisma (38-44).


If you are playing without Heighten, I'd grab it if I were you (I'd take heighten before spell focus or spell pen).

[Irinis]

Yeah sorry BigButter we started talking about my max CHA spellsinger CC/heal build in the thread for the melee one. Oops.

[dogonovo]

Thanks for the answers and back to melee SS it is then =)

Currently in Lamannia he has Toughness, Power Attack, Heighten, Extend, Maximize and Emp Heal (with Spellsinger II also obviously). I am seriously thinking of making him like this when U7 comes alive. From your experience which would he benefit more from? Considering he ditched his CC spells completely, has only utility and healing: Spell Penetration x2 for Irresistible (when he gets it and I get to use it for the first time); WF: Slash and Imp Crit for a welcome increase in damage? Thanks in advance for your time and answers.

[BoBoDaClown]

Thanks for the answers and back to melee SS it is then =)

Currently in Lamannia he has Toughness, Power Attack, Heighten, Extend, Maximize and Emp Heal (with Spellsinger II also obviously). I am seriously thinking of making him like this when U7 comes alive. From your experience which would he benefit more from? Considering he ditched his CC spells completely, has only utility and healing: Spell Penetration x2 for Irresistible (when he gets it and I get to use it for the first time); WF: Slash and Imp Crit for a welcome increase in damage? Thanks in advance for your time and answers.

Hey Dog, I'm not sure why you have Heighten on a melee build? (I might have missed something). With your build (assuming pure), I'd probably look at: Toughness, PA, Extend, Max, Emp Heal, Improve Crit, THF, and ITHF? Your spell pen should be fine as a pure bard.

Replying to your earlier post, you commented on CC bards in epic - CC is certainly possible in epic quests, ball, hold, and irresistible work a charm - obviously mass hold would be better, but the Bard spells do the trick.

Sorry for derailing your thread a bit Irinis - you know how it is :)

[dogonovo]

Gah, posting at 6:30 AM doesnt really work... No wonder you found it strange Bobo, it was supposed to be Quicken where you read Heighten. He had/has Heighten before I LR'd him in Lamannia and my fingers were reminiscing when I typed ^^ Thanks for the reply and suggestion and if I may... If you had the choice of either 2HF + Imp Crit or 2HF + Imp 2HF what would you think adds more to playability and contribution for the party?

On CC Bards and end-game: Thanks, it is really great to hear some people saying that if I really choose to focus on CC I can do that with a bard. What I am thinking is that for it to be effective (effective as in Hey, lets send a Tell to that nice bard that helped a lot in the last run!) I had better wait until I am more well off in the game because good items matter that much. And after reading a bit more about Song regerating rapiers, SP regerating Conc Oppo items, Desintegration Guard, etc, I am willing to have a couple of these banked before undertaking the harder work of full CHA/CC.

Again thanks

[BoBoDaClown]

Gah, posting at 6:30 AM doesnt really work... No wonder you found it strange Bobo, it was supposed to be Quicken where you read Heighten. He had/has Heighten before I LR'd him in Lamannia and my fingers were reminiscing when I typed ^^ Thanks for the reply and suggestion and if I may... If you had the choice of either 2HF + Imp Crit or 2HF + Imp 2HF what would you think adds more to playability and contribution for the party?



I imagine that 2HF + Imp crit will do more damage. In the new update each tier of THF will give 10% glancing blow damage (that's based on your main number), and I think it's 3% per tier chance of applying the 'special' effects/numbers on the mobs around you. That's versus improved crit, which I'm guessing must offer a 10-15% increase in dps in general situations (say Falchion, it will do 3 extra hits worth of damage, on average, over 20 rolls when using IC.).

But I don't really do DDO maths, so I could be off...

[Irinis]

On CC Bards and end-game: Thanks, it is really great to hear some people saying that if I really choose to focus on CC I can do that with a bard. What I am thinking is that for it to be effective (effective as in Hey, lets send a Tell to that nice bard that helped a lot in the last run!) I had better wait until I am more well off in the game because good items matter that much. And after reading a bit more about Song regerating rapiers, SP regerating Conc Oppo items, Desintegration Guard, etc, I am willing to have a couple of these banked before undertaking the harder work of full CHA/CC.

Oh don't worry about banking all that before making the Bard you want to make! The beauty of Bards is the flexibility... DC not high enough for epic quests yet? Then go in as solo healer while you're working on getting that gear. Want to melee? Design your Bard to melee! (See how I went back on topic... hehe.)

[BigButter]

I like this melee SS concept and will roll one up something like it (or TR) when U7 hits or the latest character planner drops. Seems like some of the weaknesses of the old archetypal War Chanter (that would be Warchanter I guess) wer a more limited SP pool and difficulty getting UMD boosted before late end game. Taking the 2nd tier of SS will force you to goose your healing up a notch higher (and some nominally more SPs from Energy of the Music iirc) than I would suspect the old Warchanters might have done. You'll get the sp discount now from your song and be able to regen your own sp and get more UMD earlier which any class would love.

I like that you can stay pure or maybe splash 2 for an 18/2 if you feel like you need some more feat space (and not have to GR in 3 years when they finish the bards off :D). I like that Half-Elves should allow you to pick up martial proficiency on the cheap with AP which could eliminate the need to splash ftr/or constantly go Master's Touch. I mean...the full TWF chain, Extend, Max, and Power Attack and an Imp Crit: if you want?? And now you can make your blue bar last a LOT longer with the SS PrE's?? And you've got high 30's STR?? There's a lot to like about that.

[dogonovo]

Bobo: I got it, really seems that he benefits more from 2hf + imp critical. I read about some weapons eliminating the need for Imp Critical feats (*misses NWN and 10/20 critical ranges*) but I would rather grind the crystal and plat to swap the feat if I ever get to crafting anything that counting on it. Much appreciated again.

Irinis: hehehe back on topic because it is such a nice one! Again good to hear that it is possible to still contribute even if your gear is sub-optimal, items in this game play such an important role that they are a constant concern of mine. Still, with the Melee SS idea I am more confident I will have a character with which I both be able and enjoy while farming plat/ingredients/etc

BigButter: If my Bard is going full blast melee when U7 comes live, I really think that pure is where it is at for him. With 20 Bard levels and all song enhancements my songs will be as good as a multiclass Warchanter (I think?) while Spell Penetration and caster level (for healing spells) is maxed. Also a little bit more SP and bragging rights for pure class awesomeness =P

[BoBoDaClown]

Bobo: I got it, really seems that he benefits more from 2hf + imp critical. I read about some weapons eliminating the need for Imp Critical feats (*misses NWN and 10/20 critical ranges*) but I would rather grind the crystal and plat to swap the feat if I ever get to crafting anything that counting on it. Much appreciated again.
Cool. Generally 'keen' weapons aren't worth it - because they give up dps prefixes to be keen. A min2 gives you keen (improve crit), which is a good crafted weapon, but imho you don't want to be stuck with just one weapon.

Irinis: hehehe back on topic because it is such a nice one! Again good to hear that it is possible to still contribute even if your gear is sub-optimal, items in this game play such an important role that they are a constant concern of mine. Still, with the Melee SS idea I am more confident I will have a character with which I both be able and enjoy while farming plat/ingredients/etc

BigButter: If my Bard is going full blast melee when U7 comes live, I really think that pure is where it is at for him. With 20 Bard levels and all song enhancements my songs will be as good as a multiclass Warchanter (I think?) while Spell Penetration and caster level (for healing spells) is maxed. Also a little bit more SP and bragging rights for pure class awesomeness =P
Your songs will be one damage less than a multi warchanter.

[Aashrym]

If my Bard is going full blast melee when U7 comes live, I really think that pure is where it is at for him. With 20 Bard levels and all song enhancements my songs will be as good as a multiclass Warchanter (I think?) while Spell Penetration and caster level (for healing spells) is maxed. Also a little bit more SP and bragging rights for pure class awesomeness =P

What Bobo said. Pure singer/virt @ 20 can have +7/+7 from inspire courage. 14+ chanter multi can have +7/+8.

It's almost as good but not quite.

[Irinis]

Would love a Bard prefix on this one too! Thanks. ;)