Loss of Support'ers

[Legohaiden]

No im not talking about VIP's


Im talking about the serious loss of people playing support and multi-role classes.

Where are they all going? Its been forever since ive seen a good Fighter/Rogue or Cleric/Bard or Bard/Rogue


There seems to be a failing, and people thinking these classes are "gimp" or trash. and rarely are they invited to groups. Are people forgetting how usefull and helpfull support classes are?

Its not always about dishing out insane DPS, or healing... or even maxxing out AC. There are tons of Viable builds out there that are not invited to high end groups, or told flat out "Your useless to us"

This "WoW" mentality needs to end, people need to start re-inviting these people to groups. Because im here to tell you NOTHING beats having a great Fighter/Rogue in the group that can disable traps, ect, and still lay out a pretty decent beating on mobs. Or the wonderfull Bard/Cleric that is an amazing buffer and healer.

I miss these multi-class builds very much... they add depth and character to any party and help round off any rough edges with ease.


Guess what im getting at here is... dont be afraid to multi-class, you dont have to have an "Extreme Max" build... you can just be a guy playing a character.

Lets start getting these people who put it all on the line to play a unique character a chance to succeed. They will on many occations surprize the heck out of you.

[Bodic]

its not that people are afraid to multi class its the 6 rog/3wiz/1 rang toons.
yes yes I saw 1.

its those that dont know how to mutliclass.

[Legohaiden]

its not that people are afraid to multi class its the 6 rog/3wiz/1 rang toons.
yes yes I saw 1.

its those that dont know how to mutliclass.

Perhaps but no one is willing to help these newer players out either... to let them know what exactly is wrong... or to put the time in helping them make a better character.


I put the time in on a single player a couple days ago... he was making a TwF fighter... but he specced and chose feats very incorrectly.... with some tutoring and a little help he is now a MUCH happier player, and not only that, but a verdant supporter of the guild im in.

[learst]

Hmm, why isn't pure classes count as support too, e.g. pure clerics/bards/rogues? ;)

Anyway, easy answer - A lot of folks have gotten too obsessed with DPS *points to threads on overpowered half-orcs, sucky half-elves, and nerfed ToD*. ;)

[Dragonhyde]

Hmm, why isn't pure classes count as support too, e.g. pure clerics/bards/rogues? ;)

Anyway, easy answer - A lot of folks have gotten too obsessed with DPS *points to threads on overpowered half-orcs, sucky half-elves, and nerfed ToD*. ;)

yup you see very few people playing a true support character....and those that do generally do not pug outside guild/friends

[Legohaiden]

Hmm, why isn't pure classes count as support too, e.g. pure clerics/bards/rogues? ;)

Anyway, easy answer - A lot of folks have gotten too obsessed with DPS *points to threads on overpowered half-orcs, sucky half-elves, and nerfed ToD*. ;)

Unfortunatly im forced to agree with you.... people are far far FAR too concerned with the numbers, and the stats of the game, then with the actuall game itself.

Too many of the WoW mentality have come and poisioned the servers and forums with their way of thinking.... "Zerg or Die".... or "MAXPLAY or GTFO"

I mean when is the last time you saw someone care about their character... its name, or what you stand for as a player......

[learst]

yup you see very few people playing a true support character....and those that do generally do not pug outside guild/friends

I love playing support characters - I have a capped bard spellsinger. Currently levelling a ranger now, but next I'm thinking of trying a Favoured soul or a rogue.

And I PUG 99% of the time. ;)

[jherrant]

I do very well with my Ftr8/Rog3 in the guild I'm in on Sarlona...

It's very handy to have a tank fighter up front who can disable traps, although I do need to work on the detection part of the equation.

It does make soloing a bit easier with a rent-a-cleric, but I definitely to prefer to group with live people. It's a heck of a lot funner.

[MeliCat]

I'm guessing you're not on Khyber? Multi-classing at end game is almost norm. Which is useful. We forgot to get a trapper for VOD the other day (huh? how is it we ended up with no rangers either???) - turns out that one of the barbs had a rogue splash so we didn't have to spend 2 minutes stuck in a corner.

Love playing support classes. It's how I've piked my way to multiple capped toons.

Oh, I include my barbarians in my support class. I stand there, they buff me, I go kill what I'm told while they toss me the occasional heal or reconstruct.

I reckon it's more how you play and what interests you. I don't understand those lfms that leave out things like rogues either - I consider rogues as having the potential for massive sneaky dps - and I want them!

[Alabore]

Personally, I've built at least one trap-capable rogue/ranger on every server.
My main rogue over Khyber is stealth and trap focused; people have started building rogues, after watching me run her.

It was great fun.
Then a vet made a remark about stopping building crappy gimpy rogues.

Now I mostly play warchanters or rng/barbs.
I still run my trap capable rangers, but I no longer invest the kind of resources it used to require.

It is not the WoW mentality.
Do not blame new players for what 2006-vintage users brought on themselves.
"OMG 200 hp rogue can't survive Misery Peak on Normal."
"Less than 14 CON you're gimping yourself."
"End-game is not about trap-finding."
"LMAO your char sux LOL."

...

I took my share of flak from... how should I put it? less than urbane vets, shaking their collective fists at the freemium crowd.
It wasn't WoW.
It was the vet crowd itself. A self-fulfilling prophecy.

Now I play DDO for the rush it gives me when I cut down my foes.
Blood and glory.
And since LOTRO has gone F2P, I hit it when I need to chill out, relax, pull out a pipe and play a chord or two on my OMG GIMP! hobbit minstrel.

Seriously, don't sweat WoW.
Pass the whetstone.

;)

[Legohaiden]

Personally, I've built at least one trap-capable rogue/ranger on every server.
My main rogue over Khyber is stealth and trap focused; people have started building rogues, after watching me run her.

It was great fun.
Then a vet made a remark about stopping building crappy gimpy rogues.

Now I mostly play warchanters or rng/barbs.
I still run my trap capable rangers, but I no longer invest the kind of resources it used to require.

It is not the WoW mentality.
Do not blame new players for what 2006-vintage users brought on themselves.
"OMG 200 hp rogue can't survive Misery Peak on Normal."
"Less than 14 CON you're gimping yourself."
"End-game is not about trap-finding."
"LMAO your char sux LOL."

...

I took my share of flak from... how should I put it? less than urbane vets, shaking their collective fists at the freemium crowd.
It wasn't WoW.
It was the vet crowd itself. A self-fulfilling prophecy.

Now I play DDO for the rush it gives me when I cut down my foes.
Blood and glory.
And since LOTRO has gone F2P, I hit it when I need to chill out, relax, pull out a pipe and play a chord or two on my OMG GIMP! hobbit minstrel.

Seriously, don't sweat WoW.
Pass the whetstone.

;)


Yeah i like to laugh at people who call your class gimp... then at the end of the quest are asking how you built it. :p

[r3dl4nce]

Im talking about the serious loss of people playing support and multi-role classes.Loss of support classes? Not seems to me. The problem is WHAT you consider support classes.
- 20 bard spellsinger: great support with umd, great buffer, great healer
- 20 rogue: great dps, great trapmonkey
- 20 favored soul/cleric: good CC, great healer, good buffer
- 18fvs/2mnk: good healer, good melee
- 18ranger/1rogue/1barbarian: umd, trapmonkey, dps
- 18wizard/2rogue: trapmonkey, umd, dps

should I go on? There are A LOT of multi-role classes, not always they must be gimp multiclass combinations.



Where are they all going? Its been forever since ive seen a good Fighter/RogueA rogue 20 can dish out good dps AND do traps better than a 18fighter/2rogue


or Cleric/BardNo reason to multiclass bard with cleric. Go pure bard spellsinger for support role, go pure cleric for more healing oriented.


or Bard/Rogue A bard to gain the max DC should be spellsinger and the capstone is great, so no readon to multiclass with rogue.

[blametroi]

Im talking about the serious loss of people playing support and multi-role classes.

Where are they all going? Its been forever since ive seen a good Fighter/Rogue or Cleric/Bard or Bard/Rogue

There seems to be a failing, and people thinking these classes are "gimp" or trash. and rarely are they invited to groups. Are people forgetting how usefull and helpfull support classes are?

Its not always about dishing out insane DPS, or healing... or even maxxing out AC. There are tons of Viable builds out there that are not invited to high end groups, or told flat out "Your useless to us"


+1 for raising the issue.

I hear that rogues can't get into shrouds easily, most only run with one cleric (so I'm told, I'm just starting to run them), and so on. I tried running my bard in tempest spine and no one would hang around for buffs.

It's just no fun playing a support role. I think perhaps hirelings have fulfilled the need as portable shrine and buff-bots.

Not good, in my opinion, but it seems hard to play if you try to do support, at least outside a close circle of friends.

[PopeJual]

This "WoW" mentality needs to end, people need to start re-inviting these people to groups. Because im here to tell you NOTHING beats having a great Fighter/Rogue in the group that can disable traps, ect, and still lay out a pretty decent beating on mobs. Or the wonderfull Bard/Cleric that is an amazing buffer and healer.

I like my support characters. I enjoy playing with them. Unfortunately, my well built DPS and specialist characters contribute more to most quests than my well built support characters.

That's not my fault. That's not the fault of people who put up LFMs. That's the fault of Turbine's quests designers. When Turbine continues to shut down alternatives to "run forward swinging a big weapon", then eventually "run forward swinging a big weapon" is all that's left.

Look at the changes that Turbine has made to quests recently - extra shrines in Tear and removal of secret/locked doors. Addition of doors in many quests so that you can't sneak or sprint past monsters. Doors that lock until you kill particular monsters so that you have to kill them and can't sneak or crowd control your way past them.

I do agree with you. I just think that Turbine's quest designers deserve as much credit for this as the players.

[PopeJual]

A rogue 20 can dish out good dps AND do traps better than a 18fighter/2rogue

One of the problems here, though, is that a well built Rogue is amazing while a poorly built Rogue is a tragic waste of a party slot who will spend most of the quest in a backpack.

A well built Fighter 18/Rogue 2 is amazing while a poorly built Fighter 18/Rogue 2 is at least mediocre and can be counted upon for average DPS and HP.

[LunaCee]

I have a fighter rogue I'm leveling up that will be a 12 fighter/7 rogue/1 barbarian at 20.

A fair number of people would scream gimp! (Especially when I mention Finesse, or that the character has a natural base INT of 16 and beyond that is a Drow with a racial -2 CON!) On the other hand, I'm chuckling all the way as I duck around a corner or two with 5 soul stones in hand using a Heal scroll on myself and preparing to UMD a raise on the poor healer who paid the price when the over confident, cocky, so sure they are "uber powah-gamur" went in over their head and got a few extra mobs too many.

Oh and guild mates *do* appreciate having a fighter that can effectively recover a near wipe. Sadly most PUG don't.
I personally prefer casters as my character of choice, but if I'm going to be playing a melee character its going to have some "extras" I rely upon for quality of life. (Hello UMDing Teleport scrolls!)

[Alabore]

I just think that Turbine's quest designers deserve as much "credit" for this as the players.

Chicken or egg causality dilemma.

Did devs code zerg-friendly quests because they are easier to balance?
Or did they just adapt quests as an answer to user base requests?
And was it a silent majority or a vocal minority?

...

The sneak tweak in U5 has a major impact on the way I used to play rogues.
I effectively stopped playing them, because I relied on NOT breaking stealth while doing melee, and dancing unhindered between melee targets.

I was told it was WAI.
Working as intended or not, it made me stop playing one of my favourite chars.
Which happens to be tougher to play, under current rules.
Net effect, I am not running her as often as I used to.
I switched to a more traditional human rogue/tempest.

...

I must admit hitting the DDO forums can adversely affect my mood at times.
Maybe it's the action side of the game, bringing out the more aggressive side people usually hide.
At times it feels like a big hamster wheel: people rush to cap, TR, build their favourite hitter with a couple more feats and stat points, and rush to cap again.

The day I call somebody "gimp" because I consider his build "not viable", somebody please slap me around a bit with a large trout.
Vorpal.

;)

[elujin]

if you take a full suport guy to some pugs you feel your paying for outher peoples fun and prob get a comment on not beeing dps .

and with paying i do mean plat : scroles wands ....

[dkyle]

A bard to gain the max DC should be spellsinger and the capstone is great, so no readon to multiclass with rogue.

Sure, for a caster Bard. But Warchanter is generally the most desired PrE at endgame, and many Warchanters are melee DPS oriented and splash Rogue, Fighter, and/or Barbarian. Mine is a Rogue/Fighter splash, and such builds seem quite common. Bardic offensive casting gets quite limited at endgame (no mass holds, web, wail, etc.)

[Darkrok]

My main right now is a 20 warforged warchanter. While I can twitch my way to respectable dps (I'm THF w/o the feats and have 18+5 level-ups base str, power attack, and improved critical: slashing) that's not the focus of my character. I maxed out the wand & scroll line so I can scroll heal/reconstruct for 192. I maxed out the song magic line. I have a dip in each of the lyric lines. I've got maxed inspire courage. Oh, and I have maxed out con/toughness enhancements which are fairly expensive. I may have to drop something there for WCII but right now I'm fitting in outstanding healing (also have Maximize/Quicken and both Mass Cures), great buffing (have Extend and took mostly buff spells), and the top Inspire Courage possible. I can also hit reliably so I can do destruction/imp destruction/tendon slice/etc freeing up the better dps classes to use their dps weapons.

I've seen many people running characters like this. What's more scarce is the pure support classes that don't bring their own dps to the table. There's rarely a reason for them when you can build a support class that provides the support AND its own personal dps.

[Phidius]

...
I miss these multi-class builds very much... they add depth and character to any party and help round off any rough edges with ease...

These are the only types of toons I build - heck, it's gotten to the point where I don't think of Precious as a multi-class anymore, and he's got 3 classes! (17 Wiz or Cleric, or 18 FvS or Sorc is a pure to me). I keep thinking UMD is a class skill for Wizards that just costs twice as much :D

Probably the reason you don't see them as much is because grouping is entirely optional outside of raids. By the time these characters start raiding, they get declined more because they're unknown than because of their builds.

[r3dl4nce]

But Warchanter is generally the most desired PrE at endgame, Never tried an epic quest with a GOOD spellsinger bard who can hold, dance, fascinate every single mob and he can be even the only healer of the party?


and many Warchanters are melee DPS oriented and splash Rogue, Fighter, and/or Barbarian. Mine is a Rogue/Fighter splash, and such builds seem quite common. Yes, support with songs and good dps.



Bardic offensive casting gets quite limited at endgame (no mass holds, web, wail, etc.)Offensive casting, yes, crowd control from a bard is not limited

[Alabore]

There's rarely a reason for them when you can build a support class that provides the support AND its own personal dps.

Maybe it's a problem with player mentality: "either you carry your own dps weight or you're taking up a slot".

I am not really sure where *that* first came from.
WoW refugees? Backlash from disgruntled pre-f2p subscribers?

Over one of the half elf-related threads, I was mentioning Cleric Dilettante lets you use cleric wands, so you could, for example, use a wand of lesser restore to remove exhaustion from a barbarian.
Reply to that was along the lines of: "Lesser restore potions are cheap. I am not wasting my resources on thoughtless people".

I solo a lot, but sometimes it feels like every man for himself.

:rolleyes:

[voodoogroves]

No, but I think the following holds true:

- You must bring something to a party.

There has to be a reason to bring you. If your build or name isn't recognizable people are going to wonder what you're bringing to the group. Phidius (who plays these mixed builds) I've seen ask the question "what are you bringing to the group" before in a thread. You need to have an answer on that.

Not all end-game quests need multiple things in each role (beyond DPS and possibly healing).

- That focus can be general or specific

You could have some specific skills (traps, say, etc.) or a general job (healer, CC, DPS).


- If you bring specific skills and they are not needed for the entirety of the quest you should be able to hit things reasonably well or back up heals.

Traps. Songs. General buffing. If you do those things you need to have a second job, else you're not contributing.





As long as your build is solid, you're in good shape. I bet many many builds can hit intimitank numbers and hold a shield. That's great for the 2-3 times you need it ... what you do during the other time is important. Your build ALSO shouldn't try to do multiple things that are time-sensitive to each other at the same time. Traps and heals, for instance, are awesome jobs but most VoD groups are going to want separate folks doing that.

I've got some heavy and not-so-heavy multiclassed builds. In PNP, I'm a huge multi/prestige-classer. It is a different game.

In DDO with PUGs in general, the single class icon really helps parties identify specific skill sets they need and match them to people. It saves time. It breeds some consistency and predictability. It isn't an absolute though.

In a 12-person raid you don't need two folks singing the same song; they won't stack. Heck, you don't even usually need or want multiple people healing at the same time - it is inefficient.

So make sure your mix builds have some specific jobs and roles they can play.

[Aranticus]

Please stop playing the anti-vet card, it gets stale. I get players that can hold their own and contribute to the party. If you can do that, you are welcomed to my raids any day, anytime. If you can't, you go into that list. Problem is, most poorly built MCs tend to fare worse than a pure class. Some even require niche roles. Well built MCs can even replace many pure builds ie exploiter, monster

Support? There is no such term. Anyone contented with being a support player needs to examine why you are contented in doing less than others


Ps: I push myself to the limits, at L16 my bard solo healed a shroud on hard


Maybe it's a problem with player mentality: "either you carry your own dps weight or you're taking up a slot".

I am not really sure where *that* first came from.
WoW refugees? Backlash from disgruntled pre-f2p subscribers?

Over one of the half elf-related threads, I was mentioning Cleric Dilettante lets you use cleric wands, so you could, for example, use a wand of lesser restore to remove exhaustion from a barbarian.
Reply to that was along the lines of: "Lesser restore potions are cheap. I am not wasting my resources on thoughtless people".

I solo a lot, but sometimes it feels like every man for himself.

:rolleyes:

[dkyle]

Never tried an epic quest with a GOOD spellsinger bard who can hold, dance, fascinate every single mob and he can be even the only healer of the party?

Can't say that I have, but seems to me that a Bard would have to chug a whole lot of pots to solo heal an epic while Holding or Dancing each individual mob. The lack of Mass Hold really hurts Spellsingers. If I have a good DC-based caster and a good healer in the party, I'd rather have a Warchanter than a Spellsinger. But I could see a Spellsinger being an adequate replacement for either in a pinch.

Epics are only part of endgame. In most raids, DPS is pretty much everything, and Warchanter = more DPS. Spellsingers can certainly bring more to raids than Virtuosos, but seems to me most raid leaders would generally take a Warchanter over a Spellsinger, all other things being equal.


Yes, support with songs and good dps.

Yep. Just pointing out that melee Bards have plenty of reason to multiclass. Your post seemed to suggest that no Bards should ever multiclass.


Offensive casting, yes, crowd control from a bard is not limited

To be clear, I include crowd-control spells in the term offensive casting. And Bards are very much limited in crowd control spells compared to a Wizard or Sorc. Mass Hold, Web, and Wail are all very valuable CC spells that Bards don't have a great replacement for.

As far as song based CC, my CHA-dumping, maximized for DPS Warchanter can Fascinate in epics just as well as any Spellsinger. At a certain point, the DC is just plain higher than anything can hit.

[RoelHeeswijk]

Firstly, with the TR system, the classic 12man to 6man, rewarding specialist less.
- TRing brings you back to 6man leveling
- In endgame, the 12man raids got replaced by mainly 6man epics

Apart from that:
When your goal is to be able to finish a quest, you want a balanced party and are willing to spend time LFMing that support spot. But when your goal is to finish that quest as fast as possilbe, you are just picking up whatever comes along, encouraging self-sufficientcy.
2 healers and a bard don't make for a very good zerg, where 3 melees do. For reasons that I will not go into depth about here, the game has become imbalanced to a point where the XP/min of quests (and partly the loot/min of raids) is mainly capped by your DPS output.
(IMO: better XP progression for quest would solve this for the leveling part of the game. When a lvl12 quest would grant a lot more XP than a level10 quest (instead of LESS), those good lvl11 players would put in effort to pug a balanced group, rewarding those support roles.

So the focus shifting from 12man raid to 6man TR leveling and 6man epic, combined with the difficulty issues that are zerg-rewarding, goes a long way in explaining this IMO.

[Alabore]

Please stop playing the anti-vet card, it gets stale.


* shrugs *

;)





Support? There is no such term. Anyone contented with being a support player needs to examine why you are contented in doing less than others
Ps: I push myself to the limits, at L16 my bard solo healed a shroud on hard

I am personally contented with doing what it takes to win the quest.
If it only takes me to disable one trap, because the other 5 players got all the remaining bases covered, I'm fine with it.

:)

[Rilbur]

Support? There is no such term. Anyone contented with being a support player needs to examine why you are contented in doing less than others.


I find this a little bit sad. D&D, at its core, is a ROLE-PLAYING game. Not a dps contest. If someone wants to play a bard/rogue that specializes in traps and buffing at the expense of damage output, there is nothing wrong with that. It's a valid character and definitely could/would exist in Eberron.

This whole discussion is about how the game is shifting to favor 5 pure dps builds and a healer (who should also be able to dps when not healing) - and clearly that's just how you like it.

I personally find it annoying, and limiting to the full enjoyment of the game. What differentiates DDO from WoW (for example) is the inclusion of traps and secret doors and CC - take all that away and it's just WoW with a slightly different setting. Requiring every group member to max out their dps or they go on your s-hit list, regardless of what else they are bringing to the table - why are you even playing DDO?

[Alabore]

why Are You Even Playing Ddo?
...

;)

[muffinlad]

Any class that has a weirdness to it, will cause PuG leaders some pause.

I have a 14 FVS/6 Ranger "Tempest Soul" that constantly causes PuG leaders to question me "Can you heal or are you DPS?"...it's not a usual build, so I don't mind at all. Sometimes I get turned down, and I just take it in stride. I wanted to play a build that let me do want I wanted, and not everyone can see what I see in it...and thats fine.

My most serious concern as I am currently leveling two TR's, is not the number of folks who will multi-class, but the "support" role is still something they want to avoid. Most noticeably, this is happening with Sorcerers and Wizards who will not Haste, Blur, or in any way BUFF other members of the team and become angry when even asked to do so.

Note: I am talking about being asked respectfully (with please and thank yous) about buffs, and folks who will drop with angry words after the team leader explains to them "we will need haste for this mission" or "Blur will help us keep the Cleric's mana resources available for heals" before the mission begins, or just no response after many requests. I am not talking about being asked to put Spawnscreen on, or even a nice to have Bull's Strength.

While there have always been "Buffho's" and "Buffgrumps", I am seeing the population of Buffgrumps explode at lower levels.

Regs,

muffinreporter

[Aranticus]

I find this a little bit sad. D&D, at its core, is a ROLE-PLAYING game. Not a dps contest. If someone wants to play a bard/rogue that specializes in traps and buffing at the expense of damage output, there is nothing wrong with that. It's a valid character and definitely could/would exist in Eberron.

that role playing DnD is tabletop DnD. this is DDO


This whole discussion is about how the game is shifting to favor 5 pure dps builds and a healer (who should also be able to dps when not healing) - and clearly that's just how you like it.

I personally find it annoying, and limiting to the full enjoyment of the game. What differentiates DDO from WoW (for example) is the inclusion of traps and secret doors and CC - take all that away and it's just WoW with a slightly different setting. Requiring every group member to max out their dps or they go on your s-hit list, regardless of what else they are bringing to the table - why are you even playing DDO?

its not about maxing your dps but rather maximising your contribution in a party. the 2 are not the same. say you roll a trapsmith, you start with 8 str, max dex and as high int you can get. what are you contributing in a party that doesnt have traps? could you sacrifice a little dex and int and get still sufficient trap smithing skills but increase your str a little more to get a few more points of damage?

[PopeJual]

I find this a little bit sad. D&D, at its core, is a ROLE-PLAYING game. Not a dps contest. If someone wants to play a bard/rogue that specializes in traps and buffing at the expense of damage output, there is nothing wrong with that. It's a valid character and definitely could/would exist in Eberron.

If you want to play a bard/rogue that specializes in traps and buffing, that's fine. Using that as an excuse to avoid any combat responsibilities at all is not fine.

I played an Amish farmer in once White Wolf Pen and Paper campaign once. I was occasionally useful to the group, but when I was, it was just a coincidence. That's okay for a group of friends. That's not okay in a PUG.


This whole discussion is about how the game is shifting to favor 5 pure dps builds and a healer (who should also be able to dps when not healing) - and clearly that's just how you like it.

I personally find it annoying, and limiting to the full enjoyment of the game. What differentiates DDO from WoW (for example) is the inclusion of traps and secret doors and CC - take all that away and it's just WoW with a slightly different setting. Requiring every group member to max out their dps or they go on your s-hit list, regardless of what else they are bringing to the table - why are you even playing DDO?

It's completely okay to do more than DPS. It's not okay to not have any DPS of your own. Not every character has to be a WF Barbarian on steroids. When 90% of the game is combat, though, completely tossing aside DPS is just plain foolish. Especially since you can have your D&D specialties and still do DPS as well.

[Aranticus]

Any class that has a weirdness to it, will cause PuG leaders some pause.

I have a 14 FVS/6 Ranger "Tempest Soul" that constantly causes PuG leaders to question me "Can you heal or are you DPS?"...it's not a usual build, so I don't mind at all. Sometimes I get turned down, and I just take it in stride. I wanted to play a build that let me do want I wanted, and not everyone can see what I see in it...and thats fine.

My most serious concern as I am currently leveling two TR's, is not the number of folks who will multi-class, but the "support" role is still something they want to avoid. Most noticeably, this is happening with Sorcerers and Wizards who will not Haste, Blur, or in any way BUFF other members of the team and become angry when even asked to do so.

Note: I am talking about being asked respectfully (with please and thank yous) about buffs, and folks who will drop with angry words after the team leader explains to them "we will need haste for this mission" or "Blur will help us keep the Cleric's mana resources available for heals" before the mission begins, or just no response after many requests. I am not talking about being asked to put Spawnscreen on, or even a nice to have Bull's Strength.

While there have always been "Buffho's" and "Buffgrumps", I am seeing the population of Buffgrumps explode at lower levels.

Regs,

muffinreporter

i noticed this as well. on my casters, i'll do the basic buffing, the ones that are required, ie asking for sonic in a quest where no sonic damage is present is plain stupid. after the buffs, i'll then drop my dps, cc or whatever is needed spells

that said, if i put up an lfm for which i state that i'm soloing, do not expect any buffs at all. the deal is a free piking session :D

[Alabore]

that role playing DnD is tabletop DnD. this is DDO

"This is Sparta!"

...

;)

...

Pass the whetstone.




If you want to play a bard/rogue that specializes in traps and buffing, that's fine. Using that as an excuse to avoid any combat responsibilities at all is not fine.

^
This.
This is where I think the whole reasoning comes apart.
There is no such thing as "combat responsibilities".
This is a game.

A player wants to run a support-only char? A pure healer/buffer/trapsmith?
If we have fun together - and maybe if they happen to expedite our way to victory - more power to them.
Combat is not a chore.
Combat is a pleasure.
They shy away from combat? More pleasure for me!

...

Really, why do some people play this game?
They make it sound like a self-imposed penance they have to bear with stoic resolve.

:)

[Aranticus]

This.
This is where I think the whole reasoning comes apart.
There is no such thing as "combat responsibilities".
This is a game.

like i have stated in my other thread, you join a lfm, be expected to live up to the expectations of the group leader. the reasoning comes apart when you have different players with different expectations coming together

there is a set of players whose sole interest is in how fast they complete a quest/raid, how efficiently the quest/raid is completed. there is also another set of players who are only interested in looking at every single barrel or to just fulfill the role they planned for their character. then there is the last set of players that fall between the 2 above mentioned sets

i do not impose how you want to run your character in your own groups. however, if you are in my group and you are not contributing (by my standards), be ready to expect that you will not get into my future groups. by my same principles, if i join your group, i'll adapt myself to your expectations


A player wants to run a support-only char? A pure healer/buffer/trapsmith?
If we have fun together - and maybe if they happen to expedite our way to victory - more power to them.
Combat is not a chore.
Combat is a pleasure.
They shy away from combat? More pleasure for me!

the key phase here is "fun together". if you play your way, i play my way, things will not be fun for someone. everything, not just combat, becomes a chore


Really, why do some people play this game?
They make it sound like a self-imposed penance they have to bear with stoic resolve.

:)

read maslow's theory of needs

[Purgatory]

Perhaps but no one is willing to help these newer players out either... to let them know what exactly is wrong... or to put the time in helping them make a better character.


I put the time in on a single player a couple days ago... he was making a TwF fighter... but he specced and chose feats very incorrectly.... with some tutoring and a little help he is now a MUCH happier player, and not only that, but a verdant supporter of the guild im in.

What you do with your time is fine with me. Don't tell me what to do with my time, thats not ok with me

[Alabore]

the key phase here is "fun together". if you play your way, i play my way, things will not be fun for someone. everything, not just combat, becomes a chore


There are shades of grey.
A different way of playing does not automatically prove detrimental to yours.

[Aranticus]

There are shades of grey.
A different way of playing does not automatically prove detrimental to yours.

neither does it not automatically prove its not detrimental to mine

[MeliCat]

Firstly, with the TR system, the classic 12man to 6man, rewarding specialist less.
- TRing brings you back to 6man leveling
- In endgame, the 12man raids got replaced by mainly 6man epics

Apart from that:
When your goal is to be able to finish a quest, you want a balanced party and are willing to spend time LFMing that support spot. But when your goal is to finish that quest as fast as possilbe, you are just picking up whatever comes along, encouraging self-sufficientcy.
2 healers and a bard don't make for a very good zerg, where 3 melees do. For reasons that I will not go into depth about here, the game has become imbalanced to a point where the XP/min of quests (and partly the loot/min of raids) is mainly capped by your DPS output.
(IMO: better XP progression for quest would solve this for the leveling part of the game. When a lvl12 quest would grant a lot more XP than a level10 quest (instead of LESS), those good lvl11 players would put in effort to pug a balanced group, rewarding those support roles.

So the focus shifting from 12man raid to 6man TR leveling and 6man epic, combined with the difficulty issues that are zerg-rewarding, goes a long way in explaining this IMO.

not sure i entirely understand your point here. depending on your quests 2 clerics and a bard are mighty fine for zerging.

and no way am i going to bother waiting for the right support slots. zerg it up...

[Failedlegend]

No im not talking about VIP's


Im talking about the serious loss of people playing support and multi-role classes.

Where are they all going? Its been forever since ive seen a good Fighter/Rogue or Cleric/Bard or Bard/Rogue


There seems to be a failing, and people thinking these classes are "gimp" or trash. and rarely are they invited to groups. Are people forgetting how usefull and helpfull support classes are?

Its not always about dishing out insane DPS, or healing... or even maxxing out AC. There are tons of Viable builds out there that are not invited to high end groups, or told flat out "Your useless to us"

This "WoW" mentality needs to end, people need to start re-inviting these people to groups. Because im here to tell you NOTHING beats having a great Fighter/Rogue in the group that can disable traps, ect, and still lay out a pretty decent beating on mobs. Or the wonderfull Bard/Cleric that is an amazing buffer and healer.

I miss these multi-class builds very much... they add depth and character to any party and help round off any rough edges with ease.


Guess what im getting at here is... dont be afraid to multi-class, you dont have to have an "Extreme Max" build... you can just be a guy playing a character.

Lets start getting these people who put it all on the line to play a unique character a chance to succeed. They will on many occations surprize the heck out of you.

The answer to that question is simple my friend its because if any dares to try to do anything that deviates in the slightest from the approved super uber awesome builds they get ridiculed...rejected from groups without question and promptly blacklisted... for example (numbers made up) a 400 Hp Rogue is acceptable but a 390hp rogue is a gimp even if everything else about him is 100% better.

Personally I usually stick to my guild but when I do pug I usually just grab the first 5 that apply...although i will ask the Cleric1/Sorc3/Wizard3 what his/her builds purpose is...and alot of the time the odd build performs quite well but the uber hardcore im on my 15th TR and have no time for fun people are too busy calcualting xp/sec to ask.

The easiest way is to find some friends or a guild that is fine with non-cookie cutter builds and roll with them.

[MeliCat]

If you want to play a bard/rogue that specializes in traps and buffing, that's fine. Using that as an excuse to avoid any combat responsibilities at all is not fine.

I played an Amish farmer in once White Wolf Pen and Paper campaign once. I was occasionally useful to the group, but when I was, it was just a coincidence. That's okay for a group of friends. That's not okay in a PUG.



It's completely okay to do more than DPS. It's not okay to not have any DPS of your own. Not every character has to be a WF Barbarian on steroids. When 90% of the game is combat, though, completely tossing aside DPS is just plain foolish. Especially since you can have your D&D specialties and still do DPS as well.

Maybe for a rogue. But please put me on your DNG list for my spellsinger bards/clerics.

I like the support role. I also like combat on my purely melee builds. But if the pug is being a group of idiots then my sp goes into heals and buffs only. If I get no kills or whatever that makes me useless to you does it? Even if I've drained or held to allow others to more easily get the kills?

Sorry but I really don't like the way you think.

It's fun to pug with a bunch of soloers. But it's even more fun if I can contribute. And you're one of the people who think I'm a waste of a spot.

Case of mutual dislike here I guess.

[Alabore]

neither does it not automatically prove its not detrimental to mine

I am afraid we're missing the point here.
But I don't want to get myself in a losing battle of popularity.
This is not the place I get my kudos from.

...

MeliCat summed it up: the "either-my-way-or-no-way" mentality proves annoying to some players.
It puts an extra pressure.
This is a game, not a full-time job.
That's the underlying issue: pressure on players, "either my way or you suck".

[Aranticus]

I am afraid we're missing the point here.
But I don't want to get myself in a losing battle of popularity.
This is not the place I get my kudos from.

...

MeliCat summed it up: the "either-my-way-or-no-way" mentality proves annoying to some players.
It puts an extra pressure.
This is a game, not a full-time job.
That's the underlying issue: pressure on players, "either my way or you suck".

I've not neg you, no reason to do so, yet

I run with melicat a lot, you can ask her how I run my raids

[MeliCat]

I've not neg you, no reason to do so, yet

I run with melicat a lot, you can ask her how I run my raids


Or how I run *my* raids for that matter :P

[Aranticus]

Or how I run *my* raids for that matter :P

and we never have a problem with each other right? :)

[Bacab]

You can play whatever you want to play.

You just may end up playing by yourself.

You may say "hey its my 15$ a month"

I will respond with "but its OUR 75$ a month"

BTW I had a 20 Pure Warchanter Bard (he pulled lotsa caster gear and I TRed him into a WIZ/ROG) and he was a blast. I buffed people and used fascinate and...I DPSed. Did I match a Barb's DPS? No.

But lets say a raid is 11/12 and needs one more toon. I 100% guarantee that my 20 Warchanter would get in before the barb. Why? My DPS + the DPS that I gave everyone else> Barb's DPS

People still play support jobs...and like playing them.

A LOT of people get butt-hurt because they get denied and they come here and complain and act like its pandemic. WHEN it could be just *YOU* are the problem.

For example...a player was on here complaining that he got denied for a PUG Stealer of Souls. Turns out he was a Mechanic ROG that dumped STR CON and HP. Also...in case you did not know...SoS does not have any real traps and you need good/blunt damage to hurt Sorjek. Baisically this guy felt it was OWED to him to be carried through a quest.

You can look through the forums and find many threads like this...

sample...again...

"My ROG got declined from Shroud and this is BS!"

Well guess what...your 150 HP paper warrior that died 15 times in every single Shroud flagging quest...yeah...those parties remembered you as "Mr Ding the One Hit Wonder". Sooooo you may struggle with getting others to subject themselves to you.

Self-sufficient toons are great...just lotsa peoples builds lack focus and actuall end-game survivability (HP and saves).

I think that 10WIZ/5ROG/5MNK *MIGHT* be fun to play...but what does it bring to the party? Just so you know a buddy of mine named "Ecclipse" who plays on Ghallanda...he plays weird builds...he's freaking awesome. He can tell you exactly what he brings to the table...sadly, not all multi-classers do though.

Also in regards to what Aranticus and Melicat said about running raids...
I play "healers". My human FVS is a Healer/caster/CC guy and my WF FVS is a melee/healer...
Well I DO want good DPS in raids so I am not stuck burning 50 scrolls and 10 SP pots for a Normal Shroud or VoD or w/e. I want people who know what they are doing so the raids get finished quickly and I can get to my 20th so I can then complain about the one item I need not being on the list!

As a RAID LEADER...you have a responsibility to everyone in the raid due to potential wasted time...and a SPECIAL responsibility to the "healers" since they usually get stuck using a LOT more resources than anyone else if a raid goes south.
If I (as a career healer) join your PUG raid and it sucks...I will probably never join a raid led by you ever again. So thats why *GOOD* raid leaders actually want a raid to go well...

This was a bit of a ramble and I wrote this out between 3 patients (I do CT Scan in a hospital) so it is choppy and hard to read and a Wall-O-Text. but I hope maybe this can clear up some ideas/rumors/etc.

[PopeJual]

^
This.
This is where I think the whole reasoning comes apart.
There is no such thing as "combat responsibilities".
This is a game.

A player wants to run a support-only char? A pure healer/buffer/trapsmith?
If we have fun together - and maybe if they happen to expedite our way to victory - more power to them.
Combat is not a chore.
Combat is a pleasure.
They shy away from combat? More pleasure for me!

Why do responsibilities have to be a chore? I really enjoy pot luck dinners (and pot luck breakfasts are even better). I would feel bad if I went to a pot luck dinner without a dish. I am responsible for bringing a dish if I want to contribute to the group and I can only think of two times in my life when I went to a pot luck without a dish. That doesn't mean that cooking is a chore or a burden, however.

I know that I could pike my way through the pot luck and I can also backpack ride through quests as well if I needed to. I choose to contribute to the best of my ability. There are some Amrath quests where my WF Wizard 18/Rogue 2 turns into a buffbot with an occasional side order of Otto's Irresistable Dance because I simply don't have the DCs to make my spells land consistantly. I'm not happy about that. I'm still contributing to the party. I'm still active through the quest, but I'm not contributing nearly as much as I do on many other quests.

If you're healing and buffing and handling traps, then you're probably going to be busy for the entire quest. That's cool. If you're just passing out buffs at the beginning of the quest and then only getting traps for the remainder of the quest, then you're probably going to be picking your nose for 90% of the quest. I don't think that picking your nose through 90% of most quests is a valid character concept.

[PopeJual]

Maybe for a rogue. But please put me on your DNG list for my spellsinger bards/clerics.

I like the support role. I also like combat on my purely melee builds. But if the pug is being a group of idiots then my sp goes into heals and buffs only. If I get no kills or whatever that makes me useless to you does it? Even if I've drained or held to allow others to more easily get the kills?

Sorry but I really don't like the way you think.

I've seen enough of your posts where you mention things that happen in a quest to know that I would be delighted to have any of your characters in a party with me. I don't think that you understood the message that I was trying to get across and I think that a big part of that came from the way that I expressed myself.

If I make a character that only buffs and finds/disables traps, then I'm going to be standing around and watching the party for about 90% of the time in most quests. Even in Monestary of the Scorpion, I'll be just standing around picking my nose for 50% of the quest.

If you make a character that buffs and finds/disables traps and heals and does crowd control, then you're contributing for the entire quest. You're contributing significantly more in most quests that that pure Fighter or Barbarian.



It's fun to pug with a bunch of soloers. But it's even more fun if I can contribute. And you're one of the people who think I'm a waste of a spot.

Case of mutual dislike here I guess.

I do not in any way think that you're a waste of a spot. Even if someone came into a quest and only buffed and found/disabled traps, they still wouldn't be a wasted spot. I just think that they could have done more for the party than they did. I mentioned in another post that I end up taking that role on my Wizard 18/Rogue 2 in Amrath quests and I'm not happy about it. Even in Amrath, I at least make an effort to throw Otto's Irresistable Dance and keep any WF folks repaired while I'm waiting to be useful.

You put significant effort into making sure that you contribute for the entire quest. I appreciate and admire that. I just don't like the people who build a pure trapmonkey that can't do anything besides traps and announces that they don't want to participate in combat because it's "not my character concept".

[Alabore]

I've not neg you, no reason to do so, yet


Because I am getting neg repped for inconsequential stuff.

;)

...

The issue here is not being denied a spot in a high level raid.
The issue here is when that mentality bleeds over to lower level quests.
When a 2006-vintage player says: "rogues can't do epics", some players think "rogues suck".
That's the issue: the impact words taken out of the context have on PUG dynamics.

Also consider: DDO took DnD to a different, competitive level.
Some pnp DMs would be relieved to play with groups who avoid min-maxing, and the only "tanking" char is the Fighter.
From that point of view, DDO is pure shock to pnp players, who are not familiar with MMO dynamics yet.

That's the point I tried to get across.

:)

[Aranticus]

Because I am getting neg repped for inconsequential stuff.

;)

...

The issue here is not being denied a spot in a high level raid.
The issue here is when that mentality bleeds over to lower level quests.
When a 2006-vintage player says: "rogues can't do epics", some players think "rogues suck".
That's the issue: the impact words taken out of the context have on PUG dynamics.

Also consider: DDO took DnD to a different, competitive level.
Some pnp DMs would be relieved to play with groups who avoid min-maxing, and the only "tanking" char is the Fighter.
From that point of view, DDO is pure shock to pnp players, who are not familiar with MMO dynamics yet.

That's the point I tried to get across.

:)

u are getting neg possibly coz you keep lumping stuff together

you keep using the example of the 2006 vintage player not realising that the length of time has nothing to do with knowledge and skill. there is a player on khyber who has played the longest time but is shunned by many players coz he doesnt have a clue about his characters

i agree that many vet players harp about dps. will a vet player not invite someone just because his dps isnt enough? not really. say in building a cleric. you want to be a support class and just buff and heal. to a vet, thats a waste of a party slot. is such a cleric a terrible thing? no. what is terrible about it is that this cleric could have contributed more to the party but doesnt do so. giving this player a slot in the party means you reject the one that can contribute more

you may ask, how is a buffing and healing cleric not contributing? please do not confuse not contributing and not able to contribute more. the same cleric could say toss some offensive spells. a destruction here, a greater command there. this makes the fight go faster, less healing needed, etc. there are less tangible effects as well. it makes melee players realise that a cleric is more than just a healbot

this is but 1 example, there are a lot more i could give but you would probably be hit for 12730907 damage by the wall of text :D

[blametroi]

If I make a character that only buffs and finds/disables traps, then I'm going to be standing around and watching the party for about 90% of the time in most quests. Even in Monestary of the Scorpion, I'll be just standing around picking my nose for 50% of the quest.

If you make a character that buffs and finds/disables traps and heals and does crowd control, then you're contributing for the entire quest. You're contributing significantly more in most quests that that pure Fighter or Barbarian.


Yeah, but while standing around with your finger up your nose, you still get a share of the loot and can equip other toons you are running with the goodies. I have a rogue that is going to have trouble getting in some groups, at least until she's got better gear and I know better how to run the high level stuff, but my fighter is almost able to raid and I figure she'll do most of the raiding at first as I learn the raids (and epics) to help fund the rogue until I can run her better and contribute.

[krud]

to the OP, Maybe because multipurpose support toons take quite a bit of experience to pull off correctly. I wouldn't recommend something like that to a new player until they've played a few other toons first. Stick with the basics first. Most new people who do multiclass are pretty haphazard about it. That leaves an impression on the other new players they group with.

As far these multiclasses not getting invited to groups, again it's new players that don't yet realize what's possible. To them you might be the same as the clr/wiz/sorc they declined. It happened to me a lot with my monster build when he was still in progress. It just looks weird to them. Wait until they get to high levels and see what these builds can do in the hands of an experienced player.

Give it time. Once they've been around for a while they'll all want to try something different, too.

[Alabore]

u are getting neg possibly coz you keep lumping stuff together

...

;)




you keep using the example of the 2006 vintage player not realising that the length of time has nothing to do with knowledge and skill.


Well, I can't name names.
Also, a 2006-vintage player brings a different weight to the discussion compared to a newer user.
That's how popularity works among strangers: older vs newer.





you may ask, how is a buffing and healing cleric not contributing? please do not confuse not contributing and not able to contribute more.


This exactly the point I'm trying to make.
Contributing is enough, for some players and groups, running typical quests.
When we say players should contribute *more*, we're adding pressure.
Also, we're comparing different realities: elite raiding and casual pugging.

The problem is not the competitive mentality itself.
The problem is when the competitive mentality bleeds over to casual games and causes grief.

The moment we question people for not pushing themselves to their limits, we're applying elite raid mentality to the rest of the player crowd.

[Aranticus]

This exactly the point I'm trying to make.
Contributing is enough, for some players and groups, running typical quests.
When we say players should contribute *more*, we're adding pressure.
Also, we're comparing different realities: elite raiding and casual pugging.

The problem is not the competitive mentality itself.
The problem is when the competitive mentality bleeds over to casual games and causes grief.

The moment we question people for not pushing themselves to their limits, we're applying elite raid mentality to the rest of the player crowd.

its not just elite raiding or casual pugging, its also the different sets of players as i posted earlier. an elite group will run pop fast, a casual group will run it slow. when these 2 groups merge and do not adapt, thats where the problem rises

ps: that is not contributing more. its using clerical abilities. contributing more would be say my fighter using umd to heal a party through a quest

[Llewndyn]

+1 for raising the issue.

I hear that rogues can't get into shrouds easily, most only run with one cleric (so I'm told, I'm just starting to run them), and so on. I tried running my bard in tempest spine and no one would hang around for buffs.

It's just no fun playing a support role. I think perhaps hirelings have fulfilled the need as portable shrine and buff-bots.

Not good, in my opinion, but it seems hard to play if you try to do support, at least outside a close circle of friends.

I get into shroud runs all the time, though I got shunned when I was a mechanic rogue... I am a STR based Assassin and I get in all the time, even if you are a mechanic though if you dont get invited for being a rogue you are better off. Even if all you do is keep trash mobs cleaned up and bang on portals a rogue is still a huge asset to ANY group. I say that full well knowing there are tons of missions I have yet to experience but I cannot see where 13d6 sneak attack damage, PLUS evasion for traps PLUS disabling and unlocking PLUS awesome dance moves if you are a male halfling (which I shoulda picked instead of the female halfling, curse you Deltreeeee!) added to your one hit kill ability I can't think of a better combo... dangit now I can't concentrate on working...

As to OP's statement, I have a clonk (3 monk/6 cleric) and originally could not plat my way into a PUG, the only thing I can say to everyone who is having trouble getting into groups would be to stick it out, sooner or later you will find a few great groups that arent snobs (either because they are cool or because its such a low level they don't know any better) and then you have to DOMINATE the mission to show them how viable you are... I love my clonk because he constantly has to prove himself, sometimes he does sometimes he doesn't... keep da faith!

[Rilbur]

its not about maxing your dps but rather maximising your contribution in a party. the 2 are not the same. say you roll a trapsmith, you start with 8 str, max dex and as high int you can get. what are you contributing in a party that doesnt have traps? could you sacrifice a little dex and int and get still sufficient trap smithing skills but increase your str a little more to get a few more points of damage?

Well, perhaps I misinterpreted your earlier post. I'm in no way suggesting that someone build a toon incapable of doing any damage. It sounded earlier like you were suggesting that "support" roles weren't contributing as much as others, and as a result would end up on your block/ignore list for future grouping.

I'm a little sensitive about this idea of "support" as right now so much grouping seems to be maxed out melees who rush ahead of the rest of the party and then complain that healers aren't keeping up, buffs are dropping off, and traps aren't disabled, when they aren't giving any of the supporters a chance to do anything.

My mechanic has Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload, Imp Crit: Ranged, and several sneak attack guile/cunning enhancements to ensure that he can still contribute to damage and kill counts despite being a trap monkey. People often comment on how many kills I scored in a mob heavy instance.

But, I still consider this toon to be a support class, and don't like when people start *****ing as soon as they see the repeater.

[mournbladereigns]

Wanted to offer my thoughts on this. For reference, I am a LONG time PnP player, all RPG's, even design my own. So not only do I consider myself an RP'er but a Dice monkey. I've been playing DDO for about 6 months, now my main is a many times LR'd capped 18sorc/rog Drow (ZOMG, gimped!) I started F2P, am VIP with all options now.

I see it as a lot of playstyle Dichotomy, the extremes are the MMO background players who only care about end-game, worry about xp/min while leveling up, and judge all builds and players based on their ability to do Elites/Epics. (they're LFM's are usually something along the lines of No Noobs/Know the Quest, BYOH/be self-sufficient, IP)

On the other side of the play-style dichotomy, most often among players with RP backgrounds, people who focus on having a cool character concept that fits their vision and engaging that concept while they play. They typically like the levelling up process more, benefit from static groups, and being to experience the content and interact with other players through a bit of spot light time for their character vision.

The rest are somewhere in-between, with all having varying degrees of knowledge of DDO's mechanics and quests and what abilities are favored/required to be successful in quests etc.

Now, as I've found, this hits the fan because Endgamers expect max DPS/HP, you know the quest like the back of your hand, are going to zerg it as fast as possible, and 'Know your role'. This playstyle is more common among TR's usually, cause they're focused on getting to cap again and have done all the quests before, they're in it for achievement and results, not the journey. (doing elites/epics, getting best gear, having as uber a build as possible)

PUGS and raids are where this conflict comes up. I myself am a RP'er, all my characters have a bit of bio/backstory and a character vision. Paradoxically, I employ mostly multi-class builds that I find interesting from builds forum, that are as capable and self-sufficient as possible. And because of this clash of expectations I like to solo mostly. And have developed the bad habit of zering/ignoring the group because I've grown accustom to not counting on the group for healing, DPS, or anything if I can help it, which also allows me to enjoy the quest in my own way. Of course, I've learned that anytime I join a PUG, I have to expect to 'know your role' and grind stuff out as fast as possible.

I'm in a few guilds, and when playing with guildies and such, I am more likely to be content playing a support role, be it actually buffing other players, or ZOMG healing with my FvS/Clonker. In PUGS, I'm either hurrying to keep up, or pretty much completing the quest as I'm used to while others are headed in the same direction.

I haven't done many raids on my main, specifically cause of the unfriendliness to new players who ZOMG, still need to learn the game, or at least how to do the raid. Regardless of my character's or player ability. Its a recipe for frustation and butthurtery.

So I agree the End-game focused culture, and the DDO developers heavily favoring the effectiveness of DPS zerging, especialy melee at end game and in most quests, discriminates against support characters, no matter their playstyle or focus. (thanks to blanket immunities, ultra high target DC's etc, melee is only effective way to take down most bosses. So all you need is a haste bot and healer, making support & teamwork useless. Which is partly of the reason why no one bothers to use damage curses or most debuffs, cause they're dead before it will be ready, or they're immune. )

It makes 'support' characters second class citizens cause they can't hack down the bosses fast enough, regardless of their desire to stop and smell the roses, so they suffer the stigma of 'we don't need a rogue' etc.

So what do I recommend. For both sides to recognize and respect each other's playstyle, even if it isn't their cup of tea, and be happy to abide by the group/raid leaders rules/expectations, and its ok if someone is a little 'gimp', or piking, or whatever, unless its a wipe, its really ok. On the flip side, you should be aware that not everyone shares your playstyle/expectations and explain the kind of run you want, etc. Putting relevant info in LFM's helps to do first order sorting of player matching. (Zerg/Rush, Regular run/Opts, etc) Also, don't be afraid to start your own groups/LFM's. Communicate and be civil, if not friendly.

[Aranticus]

Wanted to offer my thoughts on this. For reference, I am a LONG time PnP player, all RPG's, even design my own. So not only do I consider myself an RP'er but a Dice monkey. I've been playing DDO for about 6 months, now my main is a many times LR'd capped 18sorc/rog Drow (ZOMG, gimped!) I started F2P, am VIP with all options now.

I see it as a lot of playstyle Dichotomy, the extremes are the MMO background players who only care about end-game, worry about xp/min while leveling up, and judge all builds and players based on their ability to do Elites/Epics. (they're LFM's are usually something along the lines of No Noobs/Know the Quest, BYOH/be self-sufficient, IP)

On the other side of the play-style dichotomy, most often among players with RP backgrounds, people who focus on having a cool character concept that fits their vision and engaging that concept while they play. They typically like the levelling up process more, benefit from static groups, and being to experience the content and interact with other players through a bit of spot light time for their character vision.

The rest are somewhere in-between, with all having varying degrees of knowledge of DDO's mechanics and quests and what abilities are favored/required to be successful in quests etc.

Now, as I've found, this hits the fan because Endgamers expect max DPS/HP, you know the quest like the back of your hand, are going to zerg it as fast as possible, and 'Know your role'. This playstyle is more common among TR's usually, cause they're focused on getting to cap again and have done all the quests before, they're in it for achievement and results, not the journey. (doing elites/epics, getting best gear, having as uber a build as possible)

PUGS and raids are where this conflict comes up. I myself am a RP'er, all my characters have a bit of bio/backstory and a character vision. Paradoxically, I employ mostly multi-class builds that I find interesting from builds forum, that are as capable and self-sufficient as possible. And because of this clash of expectations I like to solo mostly. And have developed the bad habit of zering/ignoring the group because I've grown accustom to not counting on the group for healing, DPS, or anything if I can help it, which also allows me to enjoy the quest in my own way. Of course, I've learned that anytime I join a PUG, I have to expect to 'know your role' and grind stuff out as fast as possible.

I'm in a few guilds, and when playing with guildies and such, I am more likely to be content playing a support role, be it actually buffing other players, or ZOMG healing with my FvS/Clonker. In PUGS, I'm either hurrying to keep up, or pretty much completing the quest as I'm used to while others are headed in the same direction.

I haven't done many raids on my main, specifically cause of the unfriendliness to new players who ZOMG, still need to learn the game, or at least how to do the raid. Regardless of my character's or player ability. Its a recipe for frustation and butthurtery.

So I agree the End-game focused culture, and the DDO developers heavily favoring the effectiveness of DPS zerging, especialy melee at end game and in most quests, discriminates against support characters, no matter their playstyle or focus. (thanks to blanket immunities, ultra high target DC's etc, melee is only effective way to take down most bosses. So all you need is a haste bot and healer, making support & teamwork useless. Which is partly of the reason why no one bothers to use damage curses or most debuffs, cause they're dead before it will be ready, or they're immune. )

It makes 'support' characters second class citizens cause they can't hack down the bosses fast enough, regardless of their desire to stop and smell the roses, so they suffer the stigma of 'we don't need a rogue' etc.

So what do I recommend. For both sides to recognize and respect each other's playstyle, even if it isn't their cup of tea, and be happy to abide by the group/raid leaders rules/expectations, and its ok if someone is a little 'gimp', or piking, or whatever, unless its a wipe, its really ok. On the flip side, you should be aware that not everyone shares your playstyle/expectations and explain the kind of run you want, etc. Putting relevant info in LFM's helps to do first order sorting of player matching. (Zerg/Rush, Regular run/Opts, etc) Also, don't be afraid to start your own groups/LFM's. Communicate and be civil, if not friendly.

+1 for seeing it the way i see it

[krud]

So I agree the End-game focused culture, and the DDO developers heavily favoring the effectiveness of DPS zerging, especialy melee at end game and in most quests, discriminates against support characters, no matter their playstyle or focus. (thanks to blanket immunities, ultra high target DC's etc, melee is only effective way to take down most bosses... )

I would also say thanks to the overabundance of items and clickies that substitute for many of the things a support character might provide. If it weren't for shroud clickies and inflated umd scores, we'd probably see more of these multipurpose utility builds. Every time someone posts a self sufficient-utility character, the major critique coming out of long time players is "why do you have xxx class, when you can make shroud clickies for that?". The ddo store doesn't help either, as it provides a non-grindy way to achieve the same thing the over abundant items provide.

[Failedlegend]

Wanted to offer my thoughts on this. For reference, I am a LONG time PnP player, all RPG's, even design my own. So not only do I consider myself an RP'er but a Dice monkey. I've been playing DDO for about 6 months, now my main is a many times LR'd capped 18sorc/rog Drow (ZOMG, gimped!) I started F2P, am VIP with all options now.

I see it as a lot of playstyle Dichotomy, the extremes are the MMO background players who only care about end-game, worry about xp/min while leveling up, and judge all builds and players based on their ability to do Elites/Epics. (they're LFM's are usually something along the lines of No Noobs/Know the Quest, BYOH/be self-sufficient, IP)

On the other side of the play-style dichotomy, most often among players with RP backgrounds, people who focus on having a cool character concept that fits their vision and engaging that concept while they play. They typically like the levelling up process more, benefit from static groups, and being to experience the content and interact with other players through a bit of spot light time for their character vision.

The rest are somewhere in-between, with all having varying degrees of knowledge of DDO's mechanics and quests and what abilities are favored/required to be successful in quests etc.

Now, as I've found, this hits the fan because Endgamers expect max DPS/HP, you know the quest like the back of your hand, are going to zerg it as fast as possible, and 'Know your role'. This playstyle is more common among TR's usually, cause they're focused on getting to cap again and have done all the quests before, they're in it for achievement and results, not the journey. (doing elites/epics, getting best gear, having as uber a build as possible)

PUGS and raids are where this conflict comes up. I myself am a RP'er, all my characters have a bit of bio/backstory and a character vision. Paradoxically, I employ mostly multi-class builds that I find interesting from builds forum, that are as capable and self-sufficient as possible. And because of this clash of expectations I like to solo mostly. And have developed the bad habit of zering/ignoring the group because I've grown accustom to not counting on the group for healing, DPS, or anything if I can help it, which also allows me to enjoy the quest in my own way. Of course, I've learned that anytime I join a PUG, I have to expect to 'know your role' and grind stuff out as fast as possible.

I'm in a few guilds, and when playing with guildies and such, I am more likely to be content playing a support role, be it actually buffing other players, or ZOMG healing with my FvS/Clonker. In PUGS, I'm either hurrying to keep up, or pretty much completing the quest as I'm used to while others are headed in the same direction.

I haven't done many raids on my main, specifically cause of the unfriendliness to new players who ZOMG, still need to learn the game, or at least how to do the raid. Regardless of my character's or player ability. Its a recipe for frustation and butthurtery.

So I agree the End-game focused culture, and the DDO developers heavily favoring the effectiveness of DPS zerging, especialy melee at end game and in most quests, discriminates against support characters, no matter their playstyle or focus. (thanks to blanket immunities, ultra high target DC's etc, melee is only effective way to take down most bosses. So all you need is a haste bot and healer, making support & teamwork useless. Which is partly of the reason why no one bothers to use damage curses or most debuffs, cause they're dead before it will be ready, or they're immune. )

It makes 'support' characters second class citizens cause they can't hack down the bosses fast enough, regardless of their desire to stop and smell the roses, so they suffer the stigma of 'we don't need a rogue' etc.

So what do I recommend. For both sides to recognize and respect each other's playstyle, even if it isn't their cup of tea, and be happy to abide by the group/raid leaders rules/expectations, and its ok if someone is a little 'gimp', or piking, or whatever, unless its a wipe, its really ok. On the flip side, you should be aware that not everyone shares your playstyle/expectations and explain the kind of run you want, etc. Putting relevant info in LFM's helps to do first order sorting of player matching. (Zerg/Rush, Regular run/Opts, etc) Also, don't be afraid to start your own groups/LFM's. Communicate and be civil, if not friendly.

Well said mournblade, if only the devs would do something about this or at least state their thoughts about it even saying "DPS will always be king" would be better than nothing.

Personally I'm from the RP side.....the 40 or 50ish other MMORPGs I've tried are 99% MMO 1% RPG the reason I stick with DDO is its more RPG20% MMO80% I enjoy playing what is derogatorily named "flavor" builds but at the same time I'm a junkie for squeezing every ounce of potential out of that toon within my personal set parameters(ie. I'm currently playing an Eladrin Wizard in PnP and I've restricted him to illusion/enchantment spells only...why?....because I felt like it :P but he's incredibly effective at making what he wants to happen, happen)

As far as my LFMs go I usually just type All welcome and with some discretion take the first 5 or 11 that join although I'm getting a little ticked at people whining about no healer or a TR that happened to join complaining about the Bard/fighter/monk being a waste of a slot...but I try to ignore them (Mind you I'm a little Biased my toons are a WF Wiz/Rog, A Rogue Repeater"IP" and A Half-Orc Acrobat/??? "IP" and a few other on-paper experiments..most of which are self-sufficient and I try to fit in evasion if I can so I can usually handle myself.) besides their free to leave if they want.

[Legohaiden]

"Flavor" Builds are what make this game great and unique.

if i wanted to play a single character type... there are many other MMO's out there that would provide that.