Bow Ranger Stats for Dummies

[smithtj3]

I was preparing to TR my bow ranger into yet another bow ranger last week and was combing through the forums trying to find some solid build advice from other forumites on such a build. When I say bow ranger I mean BOW ranger, not I rockz0rz with TWF but still have my ember short bow from Korthos. . . somewhere. I'm talking drive bys, pistol capping fos, smackin hos, that sort of bow ranger.

During this research a came to a disturbing conclusion, either I have absolutely no concept of how stats function in DDO or 90% of the people who use the forum lack a 2nd grade math education.
http://www.delta-education.com/images/products/1400970.jpg
This is exactly how I built my first character

The purpose of this thread is than to shed some light on either my own incompetence (a very viable option) or to let new players know that just because some guy says that 14str+6dex+40int=infinity DPS doesn't mean it's true. To kick off this discussion I'll paraphrase two of the examples I have come across that completely contradicted everything I thought I knew about Bow Ranger builds. These two examples reappeared on several different posts, posted by different people. Apparently it's accepted knowledge.

Claim: Strength is more important than dexterity when it comes to bow damage.
Explanation: If your strength isn't high enough you will do negligible/zero damage on every hit.

My Thoughts: First of all, DR aside, just wrong. DR not aside, 44 would be a seriously high strength for a ranger (moronically high for a bow ranger), using the feat bow strength, that would add 17 (44 - 10 / 2 = 17) points of damage per arrow hit. Now comparing this to someone who has a 0 bonus for Str who would add nothing with bow strength, both attacking a mob with a DR conveniently the exact same value as whatever their base damage roll was, we're talking 17 points of damage vs 0 points of damage and this is in a completely ridiculous example. I have yet to encounter a mob who completely negated my base bow damage before the Str modifier was applied. I also figured out that switching arrow types to just bypass the DR was a nice little game feature also.

My opinion on Str for bow damage has been exactly as Bow Strength describes it, you are adding a BONUS. as long as your starting Str is higher than 10, you're doing okay. Just keep in mind that to add 1 additional point of damage to each bow attack, you need to add two points to your Str stat, these are not astronomically huge numbers that are being dealt with. If you neglect dex too much, you're not going to be able to hit anything in the first place (expecially epic content. Better to do less damage, then no damage at all).

Claim: Damage can be affected substantially depending on your strength bonus according to which bow you use
Explanation: With Str X, Bow Y will do Damage B. With Str X, Bow V will do Damage Z. HOWEVER, with Str H, Bow Y will do Damage B+E but Bow V will still only do Damage Z.

My Thoughts: I know the theoretical equations are confusing to look at and not entirely accurate so I'll use the example the poster used. Silver bow vs GS Holy/Good/Good bow: The GS bow is better if your Str is below a certain number but the Silver bow suddenly goes super saiyan if you cross that magical str threshold and will start whooping the GS bow.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:arR_KKrCbc_TkM:http://planetnamek.50megs.com/images/ss1.jpg&t=1
Pew Pew Pew Pew Pew

The last time I checked, you Str bonus was a static bonus that was added TO the damage roll the same way regardless of the bow, it wasn't some bizarre exponential factor that some how changes the critical threat range, critical multiplier, or damage dice. I.e. you roll your little damage dice and then after you have that number, you ADD the Str bonus to that number. You don't multiply it by a factor of 7 or enter it into a matrix array, you just straight up + Str onto the damage roll. Done. If the Silver Bow wasn't doing more damage than the GS bow was when your Str bonus was +7, it isn't going to be doing more when it's +10 or any other value.

Now, if anyone has actually done some number crunching of their own and wants to share those results that prove that these claims are actually true, please do. Please people, new players need our help! I saw a bow ranger build that recommended a 10 for starting dex and a 12 starting for cha, people are actually reading this stuff!

[Aranticus]

Dr wise, elementals have dr10/-. Your base damage without bonuses will be negated

Silver bow is powerful because of the crit range which is a multiplicative factor for 2 damage rolls

[smithtj3]

Dr wise, elementals have dr10/-. Your base damage without bonuses will be negated

Silver bow is powerful because of the crit range which is a multiplicative factor for 2 damage rolls

Let me rephrase base damage as damage before str bonus is applied. That's what I was going for.

Obviously the Silver bows increased crit range is it's claim to fame but the Str bonus has no more of an impact on this then it does for any other bow correct?

[Vynnt]

Let me rephrase base damage as damage before str bonus is applied. That's what I was going for.

Obviously the Silver bows increased crit range is it's claim to fame but the Str bonus has no more of an impact on this then it does for any other bow correct?

incorrect.

Str bonus to damage adds to base damage, meaning it gets multiplied in the crit. Str bonus will have a greater impact than an equal bow with less crit range.

[Aranticus]

Let me rephrase base damage as damage before str bonus is applied. That's what I was going for.

Obviously the Silver bows increased crit range is it's claim to fame but the Str bonus has no more of an impact on this then it does for any other bow correct?

I'm going to use grade 2 math now. Assuming miss on 1, all crits confirmed, imp crit

10 damage bonus
Regular green steel = 5.5 + 10 = 15.5
crit = 15.5 x 3 = 46.5
in 20 attack = 17 hits, 2 crits = 356.5

Silver bow = 15 hits, 4 crits = 418.5 (diff = 62)

For 20 damage
Greensteel = 586.5

Silver bow = 688.5 (diff = 102)

As the damage bonus increases the difference between the bow damage becomes bigger but the factor is a linear increase

[Spoonwelder]

Arranticus pretty much got it

The only thing I will add is that I think part of his point was that there was some magic rollover point at which Str bonus means use one bow versus another.

It is there but it isn't strictly related to the strength of the user. It's related to the average bow damage and the difference in the base damage of the bows. Given identical characters the base damage will always be 3 different due to the +2(Silver) vs +5(GS) values on the bows.

This difference is only overcome by the Silverbow when the average damage from the bow surpasses 17.25 (or base d10+2+STRBonus=18)

The variables are really only the Damage difference due to the nature of the weapons, Crit Range and Crit multiplier. But the STR bonus comes into it when trying to attain that crossover point. If you use a average base damage on a D10 of 5.5 then your Str bonus required = 10 or a Str of 30. Attainable but not easy if you aren't starting at around 15-16 Str and even then will have to put levelups into it. So generally speaking a non-Str based bow user should go GS.

Not everyone has a Bloodstones but if you do then Str isn't an issue anymore as the +6 extra crit damage before multipliers wipes out the differential at anything over a 12 Str and a Silver is better right off the bat.

[Glenalth]

smithtj3, your example of 17pts of damage from Strength could also the difference in needing to hit something 9 times instead of 20 to kill it. We're in a game where every last point of damage is squeezed out of characters through perfecting builds and grinding out equipment. Even minor increases such as a single point of damage can mean an enemy goes down one attack earlier saving party resources and getting you another step closer to completion.

Encouraging low strength builds on an archer is like telling people that weapon finesse is the way to go for melee. It is just not as effective due to lower damage output. I've grouped with way too many Arcane Archers while doing my TRs that did so little damage you couldn't even tell that they were firing except for the animation or the occasional status effect. Don't be that guy.


If you're trying to figure out exactly how much your strength and other effects affect your damage output, check this thing out.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=247425


PS:
The Silver Longbow is amazing. Any base damage increases such as Strength, Bard Song, Point Blank Shot, Favored Enemy, Shintao Set, Frenzy Berserker Set, etc. will favor this bow. A few of the epic bows have similar threat ranges as well.

[smithtj3]

smithtj3, your example of 17pts of damage from Strength could also the difference in needing to hit something 9 times instead of 20 to kill it. We're in a game where every last point of damage is squeezed out of characters through perfecting builds and grinding out equipment. Even minor increases such as a single point of damage can mean an enemy goes down one attack earlier saving party resources and getting you another step closer to completion.

Encouraging low strength builds on an archer is like telling people that weapon finesse is the way to go for melee. It is just not as effective due to lower damage output. I've grouped with way too many Arcane Archers while doing my TRs that did so little damage you couldn't even tell that they were firing except for the animation or the occasional status effect. Don't be that guy.


If you're trying to figure out exactly how much your strength and other effects affect your damage output, check this thing out.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=247425


PS:
The Silver Longbow is amazing. Any base damage increases such as Strength, Bard Song, Point Blank Shot, Favored Enemy, Shintao Set, Frenzy Berserker Set, etc. will favor this bow. A few of the epic bows have similar threat ranges as well.

I agree with you. The point I was trying to get across is that Uber bow DPS isn't of much use if you only hit your target 1 in 20 shots. . . I mean strength can add a good bonus but I don't think it adds enough of a bonus to compensate for that. I just worry when I see people pushing "Bow" builds with 14 dex and then add that a +6 item is about all you need to at to it ever.

[Glenalth]

I agree with you. The point I was trying to get across is that Uber bow DPS isn't of much use if you only hit your target 1 in 20 shots. . . I mean strength can add a good bonus but I don't think it adds enough of a bonus to compensate for that. I just worry when I see people pushing "Bow" builds with 14 dex and then add that a +6 item is about all you need to at to it ever.

This is true, you can't skimp on Dex. Missing even 1 extra time out of 20 throws things pretty far out of whack. Focusing on just one instead of getting both high hurts a build a lot.

[Aranticus]

I agree with you. The point I was trying to get across is that Uber bow DPS isn't of much use if you only hit your target 1 in 20 shots. . . I mean strength can add a good bonus but I don't think it adds enough of a bonus to compensate for that. I just worry when I see people pushing "Bow" builds with 14 dex and then add that a +6 item is about all you need to at to it ever.


This is true, you can't skimp on Dex. Missing even 1 extra time out of 20 throws things pretty far out of whack. Focusing on just one instead of getting both high hurts a build a lot.

unfortunately this is what makes a bow ranger sad. if you have enough dex for to hit for elite or epic, your str is going to be low. melee rangers do not have this problem as they are able to buff their str to rediculous numbers and their to hit and damage relies on 1 stat instead of 2

that said most bow rangers should try to get a to hit value of about +50 for elite and possibly +60 or higher for epic

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Str and Dex are both important.

Str adds to damage. Dex adds to hit.

if you cant hit it, you do no damage.
If you miss a lot, you do a lot less damage.

Anyone who scimps on Dex for bows is not being very smart about it.

But the more Str you have the more damage you do when you hit.
And the more you do on crits and the more often you crit the more often that Str damage becomes important.

The trick is finding the right balance.

If your hitting on a 2 or better against any monster, then you do not need any more Dex (for bow purposes).

But how much dex gets you that?
And how much is enough?
I do not know.

Once you can hit it (often enough) then it's time to try to do as much damage per hit as you can......by having a high Str.

And you still have to balance other stats too.


But a pure Rgr who is an AA, does not need too high a dex actually. As he has full BaB, and +5 arrows most of the time.
He shouldn't really have to much trouble hitting things.
But I don't have enough info to be sure how much he should take.


Personally, I almost always make more balanced chars then min/maxed ones. And they do just fine. Not great, but good enough.

I do believe that a high Str Rgr with a decent (moderate investment in) Dex will do the most ranged damage though.
I just dont know the magic combo.



One thing that people realy seem to miss, is that six points more Str is only 3 more damage on a non-crit. And not an huge amount on a crit either.

And 10pts high Str is only +5 more damage.
And Bows dont actually crit very often either.

So just how gimped is a guy who does not have a lot of Str?
It sorta depends of course....as to what numbers we are actually talking about, and how often he crits.......but like you point out, it also depends on how often he hits!

Cause if he does more damage at the expense of more misses, he ain't gaining anything.


Both are important.





(and Dex has other benefits as well....especially to Rgrs)

[Maldavenous]

An elven ranger (which is the normal for AA) gets both a Class and Race bonus to DEX and is a full (+20) BAB class. Investing level-up attribute points into STR doesn't have a large effect on your to-hit. Except for the most extreme cases you're going to be hitting on a 2+, even in epics.

Even if you do throw some misses it's not difficult to use an Improved Destruction weapon and Improved Precise Shot to hit a large number of targets quickly and shoot them up into auto-hit range. Sure, this potentially decreases your DPS because of the weapon switch and lower DPS Improved Destruction weapon but you need to weigh that against every time you don't have to make that switch.

I built my ranger with a focus on STR and DEX at creation with level-ups into STR and all the DEX enhancements I could take and be even (changes based on gear and tomes). And I still haven't run into the content that the extra 2-3 to attack was a noticeable difference on the majority of monsters.

[Aranticus]

An elven ranger (which is the normal for AA) gets both a Class and Race bonus to DEX and is a full (+20) BAB class. Investing level-up attribute points into STR doesn't have a large effect on your to-hit. Except for the most extreme cases you're going to be hitting on a 2+, even in epics.

Even if you do throw some misses it's not difficult to use an Improved Destruction weapon and Improved Precise Shot to hit a large number of targets quickly and shoot them up into auto-hit range. Sure, this potentially decreases your DPS because of the weapon switch and lower DPS Improved Destruction weapon but you need to weigh that against every time you don't have to make that switch.

I built my ranger with a focus on STR and DEX at creation with level-ups into STR and all the DEX enhancements I could take and be even (changes based on gear and tomes). And I still haven't run into the content that the extra 2-3 to attack was a noticeable difference on the majority of monsters.

a lot of players will disagree with what you have said

[Maldavenous]

a lot of players will disagree with what you have said

I've noticed in the past. Apparently that 2-3 extra to hit is the difference between hitting on a 2+ and hitting on a 4-5+ on just about every bit of content they play. Odd.

[Aranticus]

I've noticed in the past. Apparently that 2-3 extra to hit is the difference between hitting on a 2+ and hitting on a 4-5+ on just about every bit of content they play. Odd.

The key thing is many players base the to hit on the first attack of the progression but your experience in includes the whole progression. If you have a to hit of 50 for first attack, your next few rolls will be 40, 45, 45, 50, then back to 40. If u are hitting on a roll of 4 on first attack, you will never miss on 2 for third to fifth

[Silvershaper]

The key thing is many players base the to hit on the first attack of the progression but your experience in includes the whole progression. If you have a to hit of 50 for first attack, your next few rolls will be 40, 45, 45, 50, then back to 40. If u are hitting on a roll of 4 on first attack, you will never miss on 2 for third to fifth

True, so now we have to consider the player's style as well. If we're talking about a person who always stands still and shoots (or melees), it's ok to have a to-hit that's a few (up to 5) too low (since it's no longer miss on a 5-, but miss on a 5- 1/4 (or is it 1/5?) of the attacks) - but if said player is running around the tiniest bit, he will need enough to-hit to actually hit without the increasing bab, since he'll never see the bab increase.


(Reading this out loud makes it a bit hard to understand... I hope I've made myself clear...)

[96th_Malice]

I'm going to use grade 2 math now. Assuming miss on 1, all crits confirmed, imp crit

10 damage bonus
Regular green steel = 5.5 + 10 = 15.5
crit = 15.5 x 3 = 46.5
in 20 attack = 17 hits, 2 crits = 356.5

Silver bow = 15 hits, 4 crits = 418.5 (diff = 62)

For 20 damage
Greensteel = 586.5

Silver bow = 688.5 (diff = 102)

As the damage bonus increases the difference between the bow damage becomes bigger but the factor is a linear increase


First off ..... I want to thank you for not trashing ranged combat in this post ( yet ... hehe )

Second ... I was confused as to what you were getting at UNTIL this reply lol

Thanks !

[96th_Malice]

Str and Dex are both important.

Str adds to damage. Dex adds to hit.

if you cant hit it, you do no damage.
If you miss a lot, you do a lot less damage.

Anyone who scimps on Dex for bows is not being very smart about it.

(and Dex has other benefits as well....especially to Rgrs)

I cant agree with you more on this post however .......

Now please understand that I am a firm believer in "pew pew pew" combat but have recently started taking advantage of the TWF abilties of the build ( mainly due to a couple peeps in game requesting it or getttin booted from parties lol )

Anyways I can not stress anough that although Yes you do need a high DEX cause if you cant hit the target ... the STR doesnt matter.

So with that alot of my builds were MAX DEX ( 20 to start ) then usually as high as I could go with my STR leaving my CON at 10 and WIS 11

for the record NO I am not kidding.

Now besides people saying failed build ... It actually took me PvP to realize how bad of a build 8 outta 13 of my toons actually were

SO incomes Reincarnate.

Emily over in Khyber suggested once that an end game DEX of 32 is enough to hit pretty much ANYTHING in the game.

She is correct !! ( PvP is diff BUT thats also irrelevant )

SO with that ... I rerolled / re-incarnated and went anywhere between 16-20 starting DEX ( depending on the toon ) and I would THEN work on CON before STR

Why ?

Well yes ...

1 - you DO in fact need DEX to Hit

2 - STR bonus comes into play with a DEX hit

3 - HOWEVER CON needs to be considered before STR cause if your dead your DEX bonus no longer comes into play either !!

:)

I have one build ( Nattalie ) that is 16th lvl now and is sitting at 37 DEX and for sure I will put her to 38 @ lvl 20. Her CON is weaker than it should be and I'd consider the possiblilty of reincarnating if I could figure out how the heck I got my DEX that high lol.

I tried damiya who has a +3 tome and the highest I can get her is 37 @ lvl 20. How the heck did I achieve this 16th lvl toon with 37 lol

Anyways ... sorry for the short story !!

[smithtj3]

I cant agree with you more on this post however .......

Now please understand that I am a firm believer in "pew pew pew" combat but have recently started taking advantage of the TWF abilties of the build ( mainly due to a couple peeps in game requesting it or getttin booted from parties lol )

Anyways I can not stress anough that although Yes you do need a high DEX cause if you cant hit the target ... the STR doesnt matter.

So with that alot of my builds were MAX DEX ( 20 to start ) then usually as high as I could go with my STR leaving my CON at 10 and WIS 11

for the record NO I am not kidding.

Now besides people saying failed build ... It actually took me PvP to realize how bad of a build 8 outta 13 of my toons actually were

SO incomes Reincarnate.

Emily over in Khyber suggested once that an end game DEX of 32 is enough to hit pretty much ANYTHING in the game.

She is correct !! ( PvP is diff BUT thats also irrelevant )

SO with that ... I rerolled / re-incarnated and went anywhere between 16-20 starting DEX ( depending on the toon ) and I would THEN work on CON before STR

Why ?

Well yes ...

1 - you DO in fact need DEX to Hit

2 - STR bonus comes into play with a DEX hit

3 - HOWEVER CON needs to be considered before STR cause if your dead your DEX bonus no longer comes into play either !!

:)

I have one build ( Nattalie ) that is 16th lvl now and is sitting at 37 DEX and for sure I will put her to 38 @ lvl 20. Her CON is weaker than it should be and I'd consider the possiblilty of reincarnating if I could figure out how the heck I got my DEX that high lol.

I tried damiya who has a +3 tome and the highest I can get her is 37 @ lvl 20. How the heck did I achieve this 16th lvl toon with 37 lol

Anyways ... sorry for the short story !!

Oh, I melee as well. . . for basically the same reason you have expressed. LUCKILY, you do not have your damage broadcasted to the rest of the party so, for the most part, as long as I'm swinging those blades no one questions how effective I am being. My blade DPS is average, not caster awful but not single handed Harry beat down good. The bow, as far as damage profit goes, is a much better tool on my ranger builds. In other words, I deal out significantly higher damage than what I am taking. Melee, I am probably only dealing out slightly more damage than I am taking. As I have learned, people will heal fighters and tanks until the cows come home, I ranger that needs a heal every 5 seconds. . . they chalk you up for an end dungeon raise spell and let you die (though, I agree with them).

I am glad this post was able to clearify where the Str bonus gets added in on for bow damage, I wasn't on the mark with that before hand. It also has helped further solidify my belief that Dex should be a higher value than Strength at end game. 30 some str/20 some dex at level 20 is not going to work for bow ranger.

[Spoonwelder]

Based upon your own info - 32 Dex to hit anything then

16 Base
5 Levelups
6 item
3 exceptional
2 enhancements(human,elf,drow?)
===
32

16 dex being sufficient will, on a 28pt build leave enough points to get 14 Con and 16 Str and 10 in something else for almost any race but halfling. That stat spread will get you 20 Con and 22Str with only +6 items which translates to an extra 200 HP(at L20) and +6 dmg. Even more is possible with other gear. A couple of buffs and your +dmg profile is fine.

So your point is?

[Aranticus]

If anyone wants to do eVoN, the magic ac to beat is 70

[Calebro]

I agree with you. The point I was trying to get across is that Uber bow DPS isn't of much use if you only hit your target 1 in 20 shots. . . I mean strength can add a good bonus but I don't think it adds enough of a bonus to compensate for that. I just worry when I see people pushing "Bow" builds with 14 dex and then add that a +6 item is about all you need to at to it ever.

What you're missing is the fact that there is no Power Shot feat in DDO.
The melee have a -5 to hit with Power Attack calculated into their to-hit. Archers do not.
That -5 to hit calculates into 10 points of Dex that you can skimp on.
If you could hit it in melee with a 32 Str and PA turned on, you can hit it at range with a 22 Dex.

With this being the case, the extra damage that Str provides far outweighs any extra to-hit you'll get from maxing Dex.

[Emili]

What you're missing is the fact that there is no Power Shot feat in DDO.
The melee have a -5 to hit with Power Attack calculated into their to-hit. Archers do not.
That -5 to hit calculates into 10 points of Dex that you can skimp on.
If you could hit it in melee with a 32 Str and PA turned on, you can hit it at range with a 22 Dex.

With this being the case, the extra damage that Str provides far outweighs any extra to-hit you'll get from maxing Dex.
Most melee are toting more to make up for PA's loss... rage, madstoned, etc... add up quickly.

I'll be the first to tell you my Ambyre is far better in hitting with a bow than my Einin and is only a +5 to-hit difference between the two. Einin however is a str based tempest while Ambyre is an Archer... they both melee and carry bows although Ambyre is usually 26-28 str and 40 Dex while Einin is usually running around with 46 str and 32 dex - Ambyre will kill much quicker with a bow by far, no question about it, I know what I see in results. Likewise, einin will rip thru mob in melee much quicker than Ambyre ever will - even though Ambyre is running off finesse and strapped to the hilt in melee weapons too. 22 dex on a bow would mean miss miss miss miss in eVoN

[Emili]

If anyone wants to do eVoN, the magic ac to beat is 70
Exactly...

[DevilButcher]

explanation: With Str X, Bow Y Will Do Damage B. With Str X, Bow V Will Do Damage Z. However, With Str H, Bow Y Will Do Damage B+e But Bow V Will Still Only Do Damage Z.lol?

[Arsont]

I myself have been wondering what exactly the "magic" number was for bow to-hit. I actually reincarnated my elven AA ranger, boosting Dex from 16 to 18. By Lv 20, with only +6 items and a +1 tome here and there, I'll be sitting at 30 Str/30 Dex. This is without any Exceptional or buffs. Will it be enough? Dunno. But it's working for now. Outside of epics, anyone know if that will be enough?

[Aranticus]

I myself have been wondering what exactly the "magic" number was for bow to-hit. I actually reincarnated my elven AA ranger, boosting Dex from 16 to 18. By Lv 20, with only +6 items and a +1 tome here and there, I'll be sitting at 30 Str/30 Dex. This is without any Exceptional or buffs. Will it be enough? Dunno. But it's working for now. Outside of epics, anyone know if that will be enough?

arraetrikos
on normal, 39 ac. on hard, 45. elite is 51

lailat
on normal, 39 ac. epic 70

many raid bosses on normal has an ac of around 40ish to 50ish on elite. add another 10-20 for epic

[JohnWarlock]

Maybe I'm wrong but we are talking stats here so this is what I was thinking:

Level 1 - Elf Ranger

Strength 16
Dexterity 18
Constitution 16
Intelligence 8
Wisdom 10
Charisma 8

All 20 levels of Ranger to get the 10% ranged alacrity capstone

[honkuimushi]

Maybe I'm wrong but we are talking stats here so this is what I was thinking:

Level 1 - Elf Ranger

Strength 16
Dexterity 18
Constitution 16
Intelligence 8
Wisdom 10
Charisma 8

All 20 levels of Ranger to get the 10% ranged alacrity capstone

I believe that's a 38 point build. If you drop Con to 14, you'll have a 32 point build. If a high Con is important to you, you may want to consider a half-elf instead. You'll still get up to 5 points of Dex from enhancements, but getting your 18 Dex will be a lot more expensive. But a 16 Con only costs 10 build points on a half-elf.

[Aerendil]

So many variables to determine whether or not you have enough +to hit...

A raid monster hit by an Improved Destruction item (-8AC) being shot by a Ranger wearing epic vulk. leathers (+4 competence bonus to hit) and buffed by a Warchanter (+6 or +7 to-hit? Depends on their splash, I guess), Recitation (+2 to hit) and Walk of the Sun (+2 to hit), for example, is a difference that far, FAR outweighs whether or not you put your level up points into STR or DEX.

Add extra +'s if it's a favored enemy and you took the enhancements; if you're an Elf (or Half-Elf perhaps) with the +ranged enhancements; +1 for weapon focus: ranged; +1 if within 30feet (point blank shot); etc. etc.

[grodon9999]

S 15
D 18
C 14
I 8
W 12
C 8

All Level-ups go into STR, all ENH into DEX. You'll eventually want the AA set from ToD and it's +3 Exceptional DEX will get you at 34. +2 Tomes one all Physical stats.

My AA has 34 standing DEX. Buy the time she's buffed and we have somebody ID the target, she doesn't miss even in epic. In non-epics she doesn't miss un-buffed bunny-hopping with a -5 from Combat Expertise on if I forget to turn it off. She's also an 18/1/1 so she's missing 2 BAB.

[Aranticus]

So many variables to determine whether or not you have enough +to hit...

A raid monster hit by an Improved Destruction item (-8AC) being shot by a Ranger wearing epic vulk. leathers (+4 competence bonus to hit) and buffed by a Warchanter (+6 or +7 to-hit? Depends on their splash, I guess), Recitation (+2 to hit) and Walk of the Sun (+2 to hit), for example, is a difference that far, FAR outweighs whether or not you put your level up points into STR or DEX.

Add extra +'s if it's a favored enemy and you took the enhancements; if you're an Elf (or Half-Elf perhaps) with the +ranged enhancements; +1 for weapon focus: ranged; +1 if within 30feet (point blank shot); etc. etc.

Which is why many do not like to bring ranged rangers. U need to buff them to the nines, debuff the mobs, ensure u have the correct FE for them to be able to contribute. A barb or fighter would just simply get a bard song and start killing

[Dylvish]

Call me paranoid.. but I'm getting the sneaking suspicion Aranticus really does not like archers, and does not want you to play them either. o.0

[Chai]

Let me rephrase base damage as damage before str bonus is applied. That's what I was going for.

Obviously the Silver bows increased crit range is it's claim to fame but the Str bonus has no more of an impact on this then it does for any other bow correct?

17 x 3, of BONUS str damage +1d10x3 regular damage, +2d6 holy, + imbue damage + enhancement bonus damage (whatever the + is on your AA conjure arrows) x3

Per crit. 4 shots out of 20 with the silver bow and imp crit ranged.

Its pretty nice to have decent str on an archer. You save having to take weapon finesse for melee, and it opens the door to use larger more damaging melee weapons, because you can actually hit water if you fell out of a boat with them. You also can kill stuff before it makes it to you and not have to hike up your skirts and run all over the place, which peeves the other melee in the party when their targets arent standing still due to chasing you because you shot them and cant kill them...

[Aranticus]

Call me paranoid.. but I'm getting the sneaking suspicion Aranticus really does not like archers, and does not want you to play them either. o.0

nope, i have 1 myself but it doesnt take away the fact that most of the archer players out there suck

[grodon9999]

nope, i have 1 myself but it doesnt take away the fact that most of the archer players out there suck

Most players suck.

[Maldavenous]

Most players suck.

There was a time when that wasn't the case :(

It still makes me sad to see level 20 groups fail a shroud when we used to start running them at level 12, and my group even 5 manned at level 16 because... well it wasn't filling at 4am :)

[smithtj3]

So many variables to determine whether or not you have enough +to hit...

A raid monster hit by an Improved Destruction item (-8AC) being shot by a Ranger wearing epic vulk. leathers (+4 competence bonus to hit) and buffed by a Warchanter (+6 or +7 to-hit? Depends on their splash, I guess), Recitation (+2 to hit) and Walk of the Sun (+2 to hit), for example, is a difference that far, FAR outweighs whether or not you put your level up points into STR or DEX.

Add extra +'s if it's a favored enemy and you took the enhancements; if you're an Elf (or Half-Elf perhaps) with the +ranged enhancements; +1 for weapon focus: ranged; +1 if within 30feet (point blank shot); etc. etc.

I usually operate under the understanding that people hate bow rangers, so I don't anticipate getting specialty buffs in a PUG (which is how I roll) and I also don't want to disillusion new players into thinking that powerful raid items are easy to come by and are just sort of bestowed upon you for free the moment you need them. I do acknowledge that stats can be buffed to virtually any number they need to be. . . I, personally, am not going to count on it.