Halfling vs Warforge

[rabrams99]

Am I correct in stating that a str build halfling far outdamages a warforge even with the WF starting at 18 str and the half is at 16, and the WF have PA III? Because a WF gets +3 extra damage with PAIII but a halfling gets +12 damage while flanking?

[J1NG]

Yes, but also no under certain circumstances.

The WF, with Power Attack (and enhancements) will be producing 8 more damage against anything. No need for flanking, and will work on things that are immune to backstab and with Heavy Fortification.

The Halfling, with it's Flanking damage, will be producing 12 damage, but only on targets that are not immune to backstab or with Heavy Fortification. Only 4 damage difference.

Most of the game, the Halfling will win out, but in certain circumstances, like Part 1 of the Shroud, the Halfling will be trailing in terms of damage by 8 damage per strike. Which will be quite a lot once you rack up the hits landed. But these circumstances are few, so... as said. Yes, but also no under certain circumstances.

J1NG

[Narcissistic_Martyr]

Assuming both have power attack (not an unreasonable assumption really), The WF will do 4 more damage from WF PA and +2 STR on every swing and the halfling will do 12 damage from the full halfing guile line (if you can fit it in). So, the halfling will do more damage up to 75% fortification. Of course WF also get the WF tactics line so their stunning blow DC will be 4 higher than a halfling's, and in elite endgame content and epic, that's quite a difference.

[Darkrok]

If they stick with Warchanter's new song lowering fortification for an additional % to double strike then Warchanters come ahead there in situations where the halfling couldn't afford to leave the song on due to the risk of crits being too dangerous. The WF'd could happily leave his on since he'll still be over 100% crit immune.

[Phidius]

IIRC, the WF's Power Attack enhancements are added to the base damage before crit multipliers, while the guile is not.

[rabrams99]

IIRC, the WF's Power Attack enhancements are added to the base damage before crit multipliers, while the guile is not.

Oh really, so this is where you get the +8 damage then? PAIII yields +3 and str yields +1 and with the crit muliplier you get +8 right? So +8 is still lower than +12. Off the top of your head, what bosses does the flanking not work on? Also, I have been trying to work in the tactics and I am unable to get past +1 tactics so that does me no good.

[Phidius]

Oh really, so this is where you get the +8 damage then? PAIII yields +3 and str yields +1 and with the crit muliplier you get +8 right? So +8 is still lower than +12. Off the top of your head, what bosses does the flanking not work on? Also, I have been trying to work in the tactics and I am unable to get past +1 tactics so that does me no good.

The 8 damage came from presuming that the WF had power attack (+5) with all 3 enhancements (+3), while the halfling did not.

Presuming that the halfling also has PA, it's +4 more for the WF (+2 Str, 3 enhancements) versus the halfling's +12 SA damage.

However, keep in mind that the halfling won't be getting the guile while it has the aggro (normally).

[rabrams99]

IIRC, the WF's Power Attack enhancements are added to the base damage before crit multipliers, while the guile is not.

how does this statement affect the damage compared to the SA +12 then?

[Phidius]

IIRC, the WF's Power Attack enhancements are added to the base damage before crit multipliers, while the guile is not.

how does this statement affect the damage compared to the SA +12 then?

You'll need to keep this in mind when you're calculating the DPS difference, as the extra 4 damage turns into an extra 12 damage on a crit (with a great-axe, for example).

DPS comparison's are very rarely as simple as +4 versus +12.

[imblo99]

Am I correct in stating that a str build halfling far outdamages a warforge even with the WF starting at 18 str and the half is at 16, and the WF have PA III? Because a WF gets +3 extra damage with PAIII but a halfling gets +12 damage while flanking?

I thought guile gives +2 dmg per enhancement for a total of +8, not +12. What did I miss?

[Jamma]

In practice, most fights I end up having all the agro. And I'm a LIGHT path monk. I think its kind of a waste on a halfling monk strength build. Now a dex/wisdom build, probably get a lot more use out of it.

I always hear about this sneak attack bonus for halflings, but with monk speed and the speed of our attacks, its just rare when the monk in the party doesn't end up being the tank as well. I mean, seriously, how many monks have you seen that hang back behind the 'other guy' cause they didn't want to pull agro to maximize their sneak attack damage? How many monks who actually get ONE hit in with the sneak attack damage bonus didn't immediately have agro?

Now if monks could make radiance handwraps, I could see a real point to this debate, but at the moment, with the exception of dex/wis builds, I just don't see it.

Thats why I always felt halflings make the best dex/wiz builds, because they have a force multiplier for their lower damage output.

[Phidius]

I thought guile gives +2 dmg per enhancement for a total of +8, not +12. What did I miss?

The DDOWiki lists them as +3 for each rank, while Ron's character planner shows them as +2 each. All of my halflings are locked down atm because I haven't unlocked more character slots, so I can't check in-game.

[The_Duck]

you can solo and get sneak attack damage using the Unbalancing Strike.
Aggro really doesn't matter.

[Soleran]

Something else to perhaps keep in mind is that halfing cunning can give up to plus 4 bonus to hit and 8 damage with SA and the WF PA attack line lowers their to hit by what is it minus 3 however giving them plus 3 to damage.

Getting to top lvl cunning 4 and guile 4 requires alot of ap's spent as well which depending on your build may or may not work.


I also forgot to mention halflings get a bonus to hit of plus 1 as an inherent class feat so keep that in mind as well.

[Talltale-Storyteller]

My main is a halfling monk.

***DDOWiki is incorrect, it is +2 damage per enhancement.***

That said...

I love my halfling monk, but the entire line of the guile/cunning is not worth it imo. for the last rank you are spending 8 AP for a +2 to damage... Thats alot. You have to give up alot of other stuff to afford that. You're dps will be more improved by picking up Fists of Iron, and using it on stunned/held mobs than by getting that. Also, somebody mentioned unbalancing strike... while a good option, Stunning Fist is VASTLY preferable, because you get auto-crit (FoI spam and Earth finisher here!) AND sneak Attack. The cool down of Stunning Fist is short enough that unbalancing strike is only useful when used in tandem with SF.


My 2 cp.

[Jamma]

you can solo and get sneak attack damage using the Unbalancing Strike.
Aggro really doesn't matter.

Unbalancing strike uses a wisdom modifier. Yet another reason halflings make the best dex/wis builds, the synergy between unbalancing strike and halfling sneak attack bonus.

[Dark-Star]

On the damage side it's +3 for WF PA (+6 on a crit), vs. +8 on Halfling sneak attacks. Close to a wash, all said and done.

The real difference is in to hit. -3 for WF, +4 for halflings, so net -7. -7 in epics is huge, to the point that many WF monks I know have to turn off PA to hit reliably.

As it stands now, Halflings do more damage. WF can make better tanks if built that way.

[Talltale-Storyteller]

Unbalancing strike uses a wisdom modifier. Yet another reason halflings make the best dex/wis builds, the synergy between unbalancing strike and halfling sneak attack bonus.


Wis mod is also used for SF. I should have clarified that my monk is a dex/wis build.

The OP was asking about a STR based halfling monk.

[Dandonk]

As people have said, warforged do +4 more base damage versus the halfling's +8 sneak damage. (with full ranks in both lines, and equal number of build points in STR)

Now, let's look at that:
WF PA enhancements cost MUCH less that the entire Guile line (6 AP versus 20 AP). Also, the base damage works on all mobs, and gets fully applied to the boss mobs that have 50% fort, for instance. So far, all is great for WF.

On the other hand, the PA enhancements cost 3 to hit, which might be significant in some cases. And the sneak damage is +8 as opposed to +4 for the WF.

Stunned mobs will be critted, so equal damage there.

So, which is best? Personally, I like the WF way where the damage applies equally to all targets, but it is a matter of choice. I've seen great monks of both persuasions.

[Talltale-Storyteller]

As people have said, warforged do +4 more base damage versus the halfling's +8 sneak damage. (with full ranks in both lines, and equal number of build points in STR)

Now, let's look at that:
WF PA enhancements cost MUCH less that the entire Guile line (6 AP versus 20 AP). Also, the base damage works on all mobs, and gets fully applied to the boss mobs that have 50% fort, for instance. So far, all is great for WF.

On the other hand, the PA enhancements cost 3 to hit, which might be significant in some cases. And the sneak damage is +8 as opposed to +4 for the WF.

Stunned mobs will be critted, so equal damage there.

So, which is best? Personally, I like the WF way where the damage applies equally to all targets, but it is a matter of choice. I've seen great monks of both persuasions.

Well, and I know I play a HF, the WF can win out on crits, because of FOI and the Earth finisher. x3, x3, x3, x4.

so +8, +8, +8, +8

OR

+12, +12, +12, +16


but that is only on a held/stunned enemy.

[Dandonk]

Well, and I know I play a HF, the WF can win out on crits, because of FOI and the Earth finisher. x3, x3, x3, x4.

so +8, +8, +8, +8

OR

+12, +12, +12, +16


but that is only on a held/stunned enemy.

Ah, good point there.

[AylinIsAwesome]

I think it's important to note that Warforged Power Attack costs all of 6 APs, whereas Halfling Guile and Cunning up to 4 each costs 20 APs.

I'm going to guess than when T3 of Ninja Spy comes out...it'll swing in favour of the Warforged a little bit, because of not being able to get all the Halfling Guile and Cunning.

[Talltale-Storyteller]

I think it's important to note that Warforged Power Attack costs all of 6 APs, whereas Halfling Guile and Cunning up to 4 each costs 20 APs.

I'm going to guess than when T3 of Ninja Spy comes out...it'll swing in favour of the Warforged a little bit, because of not being able to get all the Halfling Guile and Cunning.

Honest opinion here:

T2 already does. 3d6 SA damage? Why am I spending 20 AP for another 8?

I'm not, because I've already acknowledged that its a waste beyond t3 and I'm going to get other stuff instead.

Could not agree more, Aylin, and this is coming from somebody who prefers to play a halfling monk.

[maestro973]

It really depends on what you're fighting and how you play. Against certain enemies you'll GENERALLY do more base damage with WF, and against others the sneak attack will put you ahead with halfling.

The easiest way to make the decision on race is plan out what YOU want to get out of the character. What feats/enhancements are a must. You aren't going to fit everything into a build, so decide what is important for you and go from there.

I'll note a few things though: the extra cost to your attack is VERY noticable while leveling up. While leveling it may be something you want to wait to invest into. Keep in mind WF immunities (with the exception of level-drain) are an overlap with the monk immunities. Also, 50% healing amp.

[rabrams99]

Thanks for all teh great insight.