two-handed weapons, yay or nay?

[Rakion]

I've recently just made my first warrior, a warforged, and I was planning on using the greatclub. I like the idea of two handed weapons, but I've been hearing alot from every corner about the effectiveness of using a two-handed weapon as opposed to 1 weapon, or especially in comparission to two weapon fighting. Do the pros and cons balance out, or am I completely nerfing my capabilities? (I already know the lack of epic great clubs, and i've made peace with that.)

Just curious,

Racyon

[Nagantor]

I wouldn't choose a Greatclub as Greataxe/Falchion are the more usual choices but if you really like them, why not.

I started a THF Warforged myself and I think that adding in Great Weapon Aptitude should make them a good choice. Doesn't work as good against a boss and you can't have as many complementary weapon effects. But in a party you can leave that to others, take down swarms of mobs with ease and smile when there is some mob with DR nobody can avoid.

[Rakion]

im not big on the usual choices :) i like new and different.

[PopeJual]

There is also no way to craft a Greensteel Greatclub, so you may be hurting yourself there as well. There are a few GS Greatclubs floating around from the Festivus coins, but I wouldn't suggest counting on an extremely rare drop from Gold coins as the focus of your character.

You can craft a Greensteel Maul, so you could pick Maul if you want something close to Greatclub without losing out on Greensteel weaponry.

[Postumus]

im not big on the usual choices :) i like new and different.

Good for you man.


While the xp/min grinder crowd might poo-poo your choice, I think the idea of a warforged running around with a big two-handed club is cool.


I'm doing something similar with my dwarf. He only uses axes and hammers. Great axe, dwarven axe, and dwarven thrower.

[Postumus]

You can craft a Greensteel Maul, so you could pick Maul if you want something close to Greatclub without losing out on Greensteel weaponry.

Sweet. A maul is pretty close to a club.


Hey Pope, I think I've read that you can't craft GS great axes, is that true? If so, what's the next best choice, battle axe?

[Rakion]

maybe eventually they will add great clubs to the green steel mix. That would be cool. Outside of that, though, I can still probably find a good great club somewhere. As much as I'm sure a maul would be pretty sweet, I don't want to do a maul, because I have a friend who just made a warforged barbarian with a maul, and that would look kinda shady. I'd rather go my own way. I might not be able to completely min/max, but this will be more of a fun toon I guess. very smashy smashy.

[PopeJual]

Sweet. A maul is pretty close to a club.


Hey Pope, I think I've read that you can't craft GS great axes, is that true? If so, what's the next best choice, battle axe?

Here's a list of all the GS weapons and items that you can currently craft along with the manufactured ingredients that you will nee dto do so.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Green_Steel_Item

...and here is a breakdown of what damage each weapon does (before any Tier I/II/III effects are added to the weapon).

http://ddowiki.com/page/Green_Steel_Weapons

In addition to being possible to craft, a Greataxe and a Maul will both do significantly more damage over the life of your character than a Greatclub would do.

[Cam_Neely]

I think a maul stunner would be very viable, even sought after in epic content.

[supp3nhuhn]

You could take one level as bard and go for the mad lute. :D

[k1ngp1n]

Feel free to do whatever you wish with your character.

A greatclub does the lowest damage of all the two-handers, so just be prepared to be outdistanced in the kill count by just about every other melee.

[Thalmor]

Personally when Half-Orcs go live I'll be making a Half-Orc Barbarian who wields a great club, just for the fun of it.

[Zilta]

I would aggree he take 1 lvl of bard for the mad lute. That IMO is the most awesome looking item in the game.

[unbongwah]

WF THF Kensai + max STR + Stunning Blow + maul of Stunning + DC enhs = Stunapalooza :D

This is a modified version of one of my builds. It's a tactics-oriented WF maul Kensai with the option of respeccing into Stalwart Defender thru enh reset. [I've only listed the Kensai enhs.] Couldn't quite hit max SB DC w/out gimping something else. As it is, I've already sacrificed HPs for DC boosts. +2 INT is for CE & Imp Trip; +2 DEX is for Dodge. Naturally, try to take +2 STR & CON tomes ASAP, but they're not required.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 True Neutral Warforged Male
(20 Fighter)
Hit Points: 382
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 7
Will: 5

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 18 26
Dexterity 11 13
Constitution 18 20
Intelligence 11 13
Wisdom 6 6
Charisma 6 6

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 19

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Adamantine Body
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 5 (Fighter)


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 7 (Fighter)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Trip


Level 11 (Fighter)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 13 (Fighter)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Bullheaded


Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 17 (Fighter)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Skill Focus: Intimidate
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Superior Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 19 (Fighter)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Dodge
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Fighter Weapon Alacrity
Enhancement: Kensei Maul Mastery I
Enhancement: Kensei Maul Mastery II
Enhancement: Kensei Maul Mastery III
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy III
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei III
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) III
Enhancement: Fighter Maul Specialization I
Enhancement: Fighter Maul Specialization II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack II
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack III
Enhancement: Warforged Tactics I
Enhancement: Warforged Tactics II

[k1ngp1n]

He's already said he isn't gonna do a maul.

[Rakion]

Feel free to do whatever you wish with your character.

A greatclub does the lowest damage of all the two-handers, so just be prepared to be outdistanced in the kill count by just about every other melee.

When I looked up damage, it showed it did the same as most of the two handers, and had the same threat range. At least thats what it said in the compendium. Thats why I made the choice I did.

[k1ngp1n]

When I looked up damage, it showed it did the same as most of the two handers, and had the same threat range. At least thats what it said in the compendium. Thats why I made the choice I did.

Greatclub has 1d10 20/x2
Maul has 1d10 20/x3
Greatsword has 1d12 19-20/x2
Greataxe has 2d6 20/x3
Falchion has 2d4 18-20/x2

[andbr22]

There is some new greatcube in Fens i think. Still at low levels you can outkill quite a lot players if you know how to play (what items are nessesaty, what targets should be taken down first). Still getting Metaline PG GC will be verrrry painfull. Mauls are much better.
You can alsi use staffs- staffs are cool.

[unbongwah]

He's already said he isn't gonna do a maul.
If there are Stunning greatclubs, the build would work fine with them (take GC enhs instead of maul, obviously); just does lower DPS.

When I looked up damage, it showed it did the same as most of the two handers, and had the same threat range. At least thats what it said in the compendium. Thats why I made the choice I did.
Greatclubs are x2 crit; mauls are x3 crit. Since both are martial weapons, mauls are a better DPS choice, particularly for a stunning build like mine.

[dkyle]

When I looked up damage, it showed it did the same as most of the two handers, and had the same threat range. At least thats what it said in the compendium. Thats why I made the choice I did.

It does 1d10 with 2x/20 crits, so twice as much damage on a 20 (before improved crit/Kensai III). That is strictly worse than a Maul, which is 1d10 with 3x/20, or three times as much damage on a 20.

That said, you'll be wanting the greatclub of the scrag

http://ddowiki.com/page/File:Dampened-greatclub-of-the-scrag-looks.jpg

[k1ngp1n]

Kensai dmg/swing output across the damage bonus spectrum. Greatclub is the bottom line. This isn't greensteel items, of course.

http://i697.photobucket.com/albums/vv332/r4zr/twohandkensai.jpg

[Therigar]

Your character. Maybe you have a good static group to play in or a really tolerant guild. But, lack of serious damage would probably cause you to be on a lot of "friends" lists.

If you absolutely want bludgeoning then go with maul. There is a thread in the barbarian forums indicating that mauls are potentially as damaging as the other favored weapons (primarily greataxes). Keep in mind that falchion has the best damage profile for two-handed weapons until you run across a Sword of Shadows or some of the other named items with epic upgrades. Or, so I've been told. :)

[Rakion]

It sucks that I wont be able to do as much damage, but I guess I'm not overly concerned. I saw something on greatclub of the scrag, and it looked pretty cool, so, I'll look into finding one. If it comes down to it and i'm miserably unhappy, I guess I could re-feat, and choose a different weapon. On a side note, I had considered a staff, but they all seemed caster-centric. They do much much much less damage, and i like mass destruction. I guess the great club is the middle of the road. It isnt a maul or a greatsword, but its also not a dagger or a shortsword. I'm hoping the flair will compensate for some of the shortcomings. I guess there isn't too much to be said for style over substance, but I still like the concept, so I think I might go for it with the GC.

[k1ngp1n]

It sucks that I wont be able to do as much damage, but I guess I'm not overly concerned. I saw something on greatclub of the scrag, and it looked pretty cool, so, I'll look into finding one. If it comes down to it and miserably unhappy, I guess I could re-feat, and choose a different weapon. On a side note, I had considered a staff, but they all seemed caster-centric. Not only do they do much much much less damage, it didnt seem like they had as much potential for massive destruction. I guess the great club is the middle of the road. It isnt a maul or a greatsword, but its also not a dagger or a shortsword. I'm hoping the flair will compensate for some of the shortcomings. I guess there isn't too much to be said for style over substance, but I still like the concept, so I think I might go for it with the GC.

Excellent. Have fun! :)

[unbongwah]

I guess the great club is the middle of the road.
No, it is the worst of the 2H martial weapons in terms of DPS. Only staves have worse specs but they have the virtue of being simple weapons (so anyone can use them) and benefiting from monk & Acrobat. Fortunately, in most 2H blunt Kensai builds (like mine), swapping between GC and maul is just an enh reset away.

I'm fine with folks doing novelty / flavor / self-gimped builds as long as they know what they're getting into; expect not to be popular with groups when you explain you're a GC user.

[hermespan]

Feel free to do whatever you wish with your character.

A greatclub does the lowest damage of all the two-handers, so just be prepared to be outdistanced in the kill count by just about every other melee.

There are mobs with DR/Blunt so that's not entirely true. Skellies, liches and the Abbot (DR\Blunt + Good) come to mind. Metalline won't overcome blunt DR. Admittedly this is a very small list of mobs.

Personally I'd try to find a holy adamantine greatclub/maul of pure good, use it when it's best, but specialize in great axe for the rest of it. You'll do more damage than a great axe with blunt against blunt DR, without any specialization. You can run around with the club equipped most times, to look cool, but when it's time to throw down, switch to great axe for most fights.

I have a holy greatclub of pure good and it absolutely owned against skeletons. My 2H guy still carries it around.

Here's a list for DR/Blunt:
Razor Cat
Arcane Blackbone
Arcane Skeleton
Clay Golem (+ adamantine)
Skeleton
Skeleton Archer
Skeleton Arcus
Skeleton Captain
Skeleton Swordsman
Skeleton Warrior
Lich (+ Magical)

As always, pick something to specialize in that will get you the best DPS against the most mobs, but always carry around the tools you need for the stuff your weapon of choice doesn't work well against. A club can come in handy :-)

[Mister_Peace]

Another problem with the greatclub as opposed to ANY other two-hander: the reach is low.

[supp3nhuhn]

A problem with blunt kensai is that against most mobs where blunt weapons shine both kensai 3 and ic:blunt won't do you any good, so you're only marginaly better against them than any other kensai while being considerably worse against everything else if you do go greatclub.

There are greatclubs of stunning though, biggest drawback would be that you benefit less from it than other people using weapons with higher multipliers.

Met greatclubs of pg aren't that hard to come by and among the more affordable harry beaters on the ah if you just want to buy one.

[Aranticus]

I have a holy greatclub of pure good and it absolutely owned against skeletons. My 2H guy still carries it around.

this is based on you not looting something better. as the length of time increases for a player, the ability to make a greensteel increases. at a certain point (abeit far for a newer player), once you can craft mauls, there is no reason for anyone to stick to a greatclub

for newer players, i really dun care if they have the uberest weapon. if they spent effort, i'm pleased

[t0r012]

great club is not the lowest damage of all two handers, that goes to a quarterstaff.

[FlamingPoet]

Hey evryone how do i make my own forum topic? Im lv 8fighter and lvl 2 rouge and pure lvl 20 monks do 0 damage to me why? Also when can i do shroud im currently lvl 10=). I like pvp because i have spell absorption and stupid high ac at lvl 10 and go head up with lvl 20's only green steel weapons can kill me, how can i get immune to their effects? Thnx for your time guys and pvp with the quenn of AC next time you find you stumbled in wayward lobster. Thnx for your time hehe=)

PS: Don't be drunk when you fight me it only mkes you look uncoordinated

[Aranticus]

great club is not the lowest damage of all two handers, that goes to a quarterstaff.

a quarterstaff is a SIMPLE weapon

[t0r012]

a quarterstaff is a SIMPLE weapon

yes for martial they are the lowest but the unqualified


A greatclub does the lowest damage of all the two-handers, so just be prepared to be outdistanced in the kill count by just about every other melee.

needed correcting.

[Therigar]

Personally I'd try to find a holy adamantine greatclub/maul of pure good, use it when it's best, but specialize in great axe for the rest of it. You'll do more damage than a great axe with blunt against blunt DR, without any specialization. You can run around with the club equipped most times, to look cool, but when it's time to throw down, switch to great axe for most fights.

It is absolutely amazing that players continue to advocate greataxe when the facts demonstrate that it is an inferior weapon. If people would take a moment to look at the graph k1ngp1n posted they will see that falchion is consistently superior.

What is more, the feats used to focus on falchion are the same ones that you would use for Sword of the Shadow which is seems to be the Holy Grail of two-handed weapons (and a greatsword). The loyalty to greataxes is not justified by the facts.

A shame that it continues to insert itself into these discussions.

[PopeJual]

It is absolutely amazing that players continue to advocate greataxe when the facts demonstrate that it is an inferior weapon. If people would take a moment to look at the graph k1ngp1n posted they will see that falchion is consistently superior.

What is more, the feats used to focus on falchion are the same ones that you would use for Sword of the Shadow which is seems to be the Holy Grail of two-handed weapons (and a greatsword). The loyalty to greataxes is not justified by the facts.

A shame that it continues to insert itself into these discussions.

Is the opponent in an auto-crit situation?

This makes a difference. I don't see why people are making such a big deal about DPS, though. Respect the time limit. That is the most important thing.

[Rakion]

It is absolutely amazing that players continue to advocate greataxe when the facts demonstrate that it is an inferior weapon. If people would take a moment to look at the graph k1ngp1n posted they will see that falchion is consistently superior.

What is more, the feats used to focus on falchion are the same ones that you would use for Sword of the Shadow which is seems to be the Holy Grail of two-handed weapons (and a greatsword). The loyalty to greataxes is not justified by the facts.

A shame that it continues to insert itself into these discussions.

Its true, the graph is pretty pimp... you can't fight the graph, not even with the mighty falchion. :)

[Rakion]

Is the opponent in an auto-crit situation?

This makes a difference. I don't see why people are making such a big deal about DPS, though. Respect the time limit. That is the most important thing.

Thankfully not everyone is obsessed with maximum dps. As long as you still win and are having fun, I guess the rest shouldn't matter.

[unbongwah]

"Fun?"

THIS - IS - DDO!!

[t0r012]

It is absolutely amazing that players continue to advocate greataxe when the facts demonstrate that it is an inferior weapon. If people would take a moment to look at the graph k1ngp1n posted they will see that falchion is consistently superior.

What is more, the feats used to focus on falchion are the same ones that you would use for Sword of the Shadow which is seems to be the Holy Grail of two-handed weapons (and a greatsword). The loyalty to greataxes is not justified by the facts.

A shame that it continues to insert itself into these discussions.

max DPS is only ever used when you have to sit there and beat on a boss or stuff with enough HP that can't be stunned.

For all the other times , the rest of the 99% of the game I'll take the 1d12 x3of the great axe over a 2d4 x2.
With great axe do more base and when you crit what ever you are swinging at is dead. where as a falc sure you get more crits but it takes more swings to kill even after a crit you likely have to swing again anyway.

Anything that can be stunned I'll take a great axe. anything with fort or crit immunity like undead , I'll take a great axe. basically bosses that you have to swing at for a couple min to work them down go falc , for everything else give me the Gaxe or even a maul.

[Therigar]

Is the opponent in an auto-crit situation?

While some players may spend all their time in auto-crit conditions most do not. Most of the game does not involve auto-crit situations.

So, although there is a very specific and limited space where concern about auto-crit generates more damage for the greataxe the majority of the time falchion is superior. But, by an amazing coincidence, the exact feats you need for greataxe are also used for greatsword (Sword of Shadows) and for falchion.

Lastly, if you are grouping where everything is an auto-crit situation then Epic Sword of Shadows is still the superior weapon IIRC. Maybe k1ngp1n can confirm this.

[Therigar]

For all the other times , the rest of the 99% of the game

This is blatantly misleading. The majority of the game does not involve stunned or held mobs that can be auto-crit. The majority of the game features exactly the opposite of this. I challenge any reader to go into the game and see how many of their encounters feature stunned or held mobs where auto-crits apply. The overwhelming majority of a character's life is spent in encounters where auto-crits do not happen.

The real truth is that even in the upper character levels you don't see this too often. How easy would a Shroud or Hound be if every encounter could be handled with a stun and go. Simply isn't part of the game.

My understanding is that many playing epic content rely on stunning to get mobs into auto-crit. But, that hardly represents 99% of the game. For the majority of players it probably represents 0%.

[t0r012]

This is blatantly misleading. The majority of the game does not involve stunned or held mobs that can be auto-crit. The majority of the game features exactly the opposite of this. I challenge any reader to go into the game and see how many of their encounters feature stunned or held mobs where auto-crits apply. The overwhelming majority of a character's life is spent in encounters where auto-crits do not happen.

The real truth is that even in the upper character levels you don't see this too often. How easy would a Shroud or Hound be if every encounter could be handled with a stun and go. Simply isn't part of the game.

My understanding is that many playing epic content rely on stunning to get mobs into auto-crit. But, that hardly represents 99% of the game. For the majority of players it probably represents 0%.

never said auto cit or stunned was 99%. re-read the post.

What I said was 99% was the rest of the times when you are not standing there boss beating and the fabricated term "DPS" has a real meaning. When is the last time you sat there beating on something for a minute or more other than a boss where DPS would "normalize" like the pretty chart posted? you trash one mob quick and move to the next. a 3x crit with a G-axe brings tons of damage and gets rid of stuff fast when you do get a crit, with a falch you have to swing more.

For trash that is 99% of the game give me a Gaxe for beating on bosses when that chart means something I'll take the falc.
------

and if you don't see stunned mobs a lot , come run with my monks they like to stun stuff.

[khaldan]

For trash that is 99% of the game give me a Gaxe for beating on bosses when that chart means something I'll take the falc.


The chart is based on damage per swing multiplied by swings per second. Trash just means less swings per second, but the graph proportionally stays the same.

Just because you hate the graph, doesn't mean it's meaningless.

[Therigar]

What I said was 99% was the rest of the times when you are not standing there boss beating and the fabricated term "DPS" has a real meaning. When is the last time you sat there beating on something for a minute or more other than a boss where DPS would "normalize" like the pretty chart posted? you trash one mob quick and move to the next. a 3x crit with a G-axe brings tons of damage and gets rid of stuff fast when you do get a crit, with a falch you have to swing more.

This is false as well. With a falchion you have to swing less because the threat range is bigger thus the damage being done is bigger. In fact, the chart is designed to show that happens in these common encounters.

Although you may get lucky and get that 20 on the first swing for the x3 crit over time the d20 rolls will normalize. That means that even if you are moving past 1 mob to the next you will still be doing more damage with the falchion.

The failure to understand basic math or the effects of multiple d20 rolls is most interesting. Fact: each d20 roll stands alone so the chances of any 1 roll being a 20 is exactly the same as any 1 roll being a 1. Fact: multiple d20 rolls normalize to an average over time of 10.5 per roll. Fact: in the process of normalization the probability of a roll in the range 18-20 is 3 times higher than the probability of a 20.

Fact: in the case of damage over time with respect to D&D and DDO the falchion always wins.

Thus, it is entirely incorrect and unfactual to assert that the greataxe is the better weapon. Greataxe is only better in one very unique situation -- when there are autocrits. Otherwise it is an inferior weapons. If you are prefering greataxe to falchion against trash mobs you are actually prolonging the encounter and not shortening it.

[PopeJual]

Fact: in the case of damage over time with respect to D&D and DDO the falchion always wins.


You used the "a" word.

Falchion is often the better weapon. I'd even say that it's usually the better weapon. At least some of the "better" comes from what you're using it for, though. Are you in Epic quests? Are you just farming the Shroud? Are you a capped Paladin? Which Greataxe are you using? Which Falchion are you using?

Which will do more damage to Harry in 60 seconds in the hands of a capped Barbarian? Epic Xuum with a Good add-on or Epic Antique Greataxe with a Good add-on? What is the Barbarian's strength and other non-weapon-based damage per hit? How about the same weapons with a Silver add-on for the Epic Xuum in the hands of a Paladin?

I agree that most people would do better in most situations with a Min II Falchion than with a Min II Greataxe. I wouldn't use the "a" word for that statement, though.

[Therigar]

You used the "a" word.

Falchion is often the better weapon. I'd even say that it's usually the better weapon. At least some of the "better" comes from what you're using it for, though. Are you in Epic quests? Are you just farming the Shroud? Are you a capped Paladin? Which Greataxe are you using? Which Falchion are you using?

Which will do more damage to Harry in 60 seconds in the hands of a capped Barbarian? Epic Xuum with a Good add-on or Epic Antique Greataxe with a Good add-on? What is the Barbarian's strength and other non-weapon-based damage per hit? How about the same weapons with a Silver add-on for the Epic Xuum in the hands of a Paladin?

I agree that most people would do better in most situations with a Min II Falchion than with a Min II Greataxe. I wouldn't use the "a" word for that statement, though.

If the debate is greataxe v falchion then I am comfortable with the always. It will be always for the vast majority of players and if there are players for whom that does not apply, well, good for them.

But, for the forum audience "always" is a better concept than "sometimes" since the number of "sometimes" is so close to 100% that they will never see the difference.

[PopeJual]

[quote=Therigar;3280708]If the debate is greataxe v falchion then I am comfortable with the always.[quote]

If backpack riding is a valid playstyle choice, then I guess being comfortable with being wrong in the forums is a valid posting lifestyle choice as well.

[Therigar]

If the debate is greataxe v falchion then I am comfortable with the always.

If backpack riding is a valid playstyle choice, then I guess being comfortable with being wrong in the forums is a valid posting lifestyle choice as well.

LOL

The minimal number of times when great axe is better doesn't warrant choosing greataxe over falchion as the two-handed weapon of choice. Look again at the damage graph. Great club is significantly below the other weapons. Falchion is significantly above.

I challenge you to list the ways when great axe gets higher DPS. It is limited to those times when the mob can be auto-crit. Can you find other times? If so please post them. I don't mind being told I'm wrong but would like to see some proof.

Here is the comparison vs Harry (http://ddowiki.com/page/Arraetrikos). Both weapons are Mineral II and the acid damage has been discounted because of Harry's resistance to acid. Bonus damage from STR has been calculated at 50 and the weapon is assumed to have good burst. Under that circumstance the great axe does 1798 points of damage thru 20 attacks (1564 when Harry's fortification is taken into account). The falchion does 1905 (1598.5).

Change the good burst to holy and the numbers become 1903 (1683) for the great axe vs 1975 (1700) for the falchion.

To actually overcome the falchion the great axe must add in the acid damage. The numbers become 2074.5 (1783) for the great axe vs 1991.5 (1760.5) for the falchion.

Now, this comparison was done with an exceptionally high damage bonus for STR of 50 points per hit. If the STR bonus drops to 20 the great axe loses in every category except if we count the acid damage & adjust for Harry's fortification.

So, what is a realistic number for the STR bonus? At 1.5 times the normal bonus (because of the two-handed weapon advantage) a 50 STR character will generate +30 damage from STR. Other than barbarians, how many characters can count on 50 STR? 18 base + 5 stat increases + 3 fighter enhancements + 4 tome + 6 item + 3 exceptional + 1 airship buff = 40. Double Madstone effects gives +4. We are pushing the limits at 44 STR. That is +17 STR damage or +26 on a two-handed weapon if we round up.

At 26 bonus damage from STR the great axe generates 1312 (1150) vs the falchion's 1383 (1165.5) with good burst. The numbers are 1321.5 (1197.5) vs 1367.5 (1201.5) for holy. And, if we have both holy and acid the numbers are 1343.5 (1208.5) vs 1378.5 (1207).

So, in a very realistic situation with a 44 STR on Mineral II with holy damage vs Harry we see that the great axe only does 1.5 points more damage if it gets the full benefit of elemental acid -- something that cannot happen because of Harry's resistance.

It means that great axe doesn't even beat falchion in this type of an example where the numbers have been manipulated to give it an advantage (from the unrealistic STR bonus to the granting of elemental damage bonuses).

The facts demonstrate that falchion is the better weapon except in a very restricted case where the target can be auto-crit. Otherwise examples simply do not exist within the realm of normal expectations from players. If they do then I challenge you to provide one. Just one example. Please.

Otherwise that backpack spot is reserved for the great axe users. :)

[PopeJual]

LOL

The minimal number of times when great axe is better doesn't warrant choosing greataxe over falchion as the two-handed weapon of choice.

For most builds, I agree. For builds where the Greataxe is superior to the Falchion, a pair of Heavy Picks will be even better than the Greataxe.



The facts demonstrate that falchion is the better weapon except in a very restricted case where the target can be auto-crit.

I agree. Thank you for now correcting your previous post where you said that a Falchion is always better than a Greataxe.

[Therigar]

I agree. Thank you for now correcting your previous post where you said that a Falchion is always better than a Greataxe.

ROFL

If that is your issue then I'll know to ignore you from now on. I am still very comfortable with saying that for the vast majority of DDO players falchion is ALWAYS better than great axe. It is so superior that nobody should ever consider taking great axe. I believe k1ngp1n has even demonstrated that dwarves with axe enhancements are inferior using great axe compared to falchion.

Not only am I still comfortable saying falchion is ALWAYS better than great axe, I'm also comfortable saying players should NEVER take great axe. There are some unique situations where you can quibble around the edges of these assertions but they are so unusual that I have no qualms about ignoring them.

[t0r012]

fort , undead , constructs.
the falc isn't "always" better, in many cases it is.

granted most of you sit at endgame and run the shroud every 3 days for the me running through the levels will take a gaxe.

house D spattering of undeads
house P a good chunk of undead
house K mostly undead (up until relic)
house J all undead (redwillow the exception)
need I mention deleras, necro I-IV?

thats a lot of content and a good chunk of levels 1-15 that are crit immune.
=====

Like I said for standing there beating on Harry give me a Falc, Otherwise I'll take a Great axe.
I should amend to "end game" I'll take a falc otherwise I'll take a Great axe.

[k1ngp1n]

Wow, this thread is still going...


yes for martial they are the lowest but the unqualified

needed correcting.

Quarterstaves bring in a different mess, due to their centered nature with monk. Technically speaking, a quarter staff is 1 dmg less average than a greatclub per swing. For a pure fighter, yes a Qstaff is weaker. For a multiclass - not so much. 1 Level of monk brings the Qstaff on par with the greatclub due to fire stance, or better with wind stance.

In addition, while Qstaves use the THF line, few people refer to them as two-handers when asking, what weapon should I use for THF? One less line on the graph = more information actually delivered. And since a Qstaff is a simple weapon, I will stand by my previous wording. :)


Lastly, if you are grouping where everything is an auto-crit situation then Epic Sword of Shadows is still the superior weapon IIRC. Maybe k1ngp1n can confirm this.

That is correct.


So, what is a realistic number for the STR bonus? At 1.5 times the normal bonus (because of the two-handed weapon advantage) a 50 STR character will generate +30 damage from STR. Other than barbarians, how many characters can count on 50 STR? 18 base + 5 stat increases + 3 fighter enhancements + 4 tome + 6 item + 3 exceptional + 1 airship buff = 40. Double Madstone effects gives +4. We are pushing the limits at 44 STR. That is +17 STR damage or +26 on a two-handed weapon if we round up.

18
+5 Lvl
+3 Fighter
+4 Tome
+7 Item
+3 Exceptional
+1 Litany
+2 Rage
+1 Boat
+8 Power Surge
--------
52 Sustained (1 min per boost, though fighters have tons of boosts)
+4 Double Madstone
--------
56

Store and Yugo pots, and the barb past life CAN drive it higher, but I don't ever compute for these. There are even more ways for a fighter to stack up more STR, but it becomes an effort in futility.

I also don't compute for epic weapons or play in the 'what weapon should i use?' style posts. Auto-crit is a rare occurence in leveling play, and shouldn't be used as a base for weapons choice there. Since new players will find leveling easier with a better crit profile weapon, and will still be able to contribute fine at 20 and in epics, despite being a lower crit profile, first toon to cap should realistically carry a falchion, and ignore the greataxe completely, IMO. Though, I would also argue that for most players, you should use whichever is best that you own, and not get caught up in weapon choice. Fighters have their specs, so of course things are different for them. There are those who would disagree - I'm just stating my opinion on this one.

Its the same reason I still suggest the khopesh over the heavy pick. If crit multi were a superior build choice over total crit profile, then the khopesh would be a dead weapon and we'd be living in a heavy pick world. But the reality is that a character will do far better with a khopesh than a heavy pick, and in situations where mobs are getting stunned constantly, they can grab picks too. The same goes for falchion/greataxe.

[k1ngp1n]

fort , undead , constructs.
the falc isn't "always" better, in many cases it is.

granted most of you sit at endgame and run the shroud every 3 days for the me running through the levels will take a gaxe. It's only at end game that the great axe pulls ahead distinctly.

house D spattering of undeads
house P a good chunk of undead
house K mostly undead (up until relic)
house J all undead (redwillow the exception)
need I mention deleras, necro I-IV?

Greataxe sucks vs undead. A greatsword is higher dmg vs dr/slash and a maul or greatclub is better vs. dr/blunt. The greataxe ahead of only the falchion.

thats a lot of content and a good chunk of levels 1-15 that are crit immune.
=====

Like I said for standing there beating on Harry give me a Falc, Otherwise I'll take a Great axe.
I should amend to "end game" I'll take a falc otherwise I'll take a Great axe.

Comments in this awesome, easter-eggish blue. For leveling content, the greataxe is the second worst of the primary two-handers to spec in (dwarves aside).

Edit: This discounts Carnifex, which is godly. But few first-tooners will have a carnifex. :P

[PopeJual]

Wow, this thread is still going...



Quarterstaves bring in a different mess, due to their centered nature with monk. Technically speaking, a quarter staff is 1 dmg less average than a greatclub per swing. For a pure fighter, yes a Qstaff is weaker. For a multiclass - not so much. 1 Level of monk brings the Qstaff on par with the greatclub due to fire stance, or better with wind stance.

In addition, while Qstaves use the THF line, few people refer to them as two-handers when asking, what weapon should I use for THF? One less line on the graph = more information actually delivered. And since a Qstaff is a simple weapon, I will stand by my previous wording. :)



That is correct.



18
+5 Lvl
+3 Fighter
+4 Tome
+7 Item
+3 Exceptional
+1 Litany
+2 Rage
+1 Boat
+8 Power Surge
--------
52 Sustained (1 min per boost, though fighters have tons of boosts)
+4 Double Madstone
--------
56

Store and Yugo pots, and the barb past life CAN drive it higher, but I don't ever compute for these. There are even more ways for a fighter to stack up more STR, but it becomes an effort in futility.

I also don't compute for epic weapons or play in the 'what weapon should i use?' style posts. Auto-crit is a rare occurence in leveling play, and shouldn't be used as a base for weapons choice there. Since new players will find leveling easier with a better crit profile weapon, and will still be able to contribute fine at 20 and in epics, despite being a lower crit profile, first toon to cap should realistically carry a falchion, and ignore the greataxe completely, IMO. Though, I would also argue that for most players, you should use whichever is best that you own, and not get caught up in weapon choice. Fighters have their specs, so of course things are different for them. There are those who would disagree - I'm just stating my opinion on this one.

Its the same reason I still suggest the khopesh over the heavy pick. If crit multi were a superior build choice over total crit profile, then the khopesh would be a dead weapon and we'd be living in a heavy pick world. But the reality is that a character will do far better with a khopesh than a heavy pick, and in situations where mobs are getting stunned constantly, they can grab picks too. The same goes for falchion/greataxe.

K1ngp1n, thank you for an excellent analysis that was also properly phrased.

[Dunfalach]

For the OP, I would just add this advice: carry along a couple of backups. One of my warforged who hasn't pulled a muckbane yet carries around a +1 greatclub he got from a chest to use on oozes, even though he's normally doing an entirely different pair of weapons. I used a couple of cheap clubs on my TWF ranger till he got his muckbanes. Most any melee-focused character, regardless of whether they're TWF, THF, or sword and board is going to carry multiple weapon sets anyway, simply because certain mobs are immune to or vulnerable to different things and he or she wants to be able to switch out as needed.

So if something that has good modifiers on it and doesn't require you to take an extra feat to use drops, drop it on a hotbar so it's available to try when you encounter a mob that your usual weapon just isn't working on. For instance, even a dedicated slasher/basher DPS type should carry around at least one ranged weapon, with ammo if applicable, just because there are certain maps in the game where a mob is in a difficult to access area, or where you want to pull a mob to you with a ranged attack rather the racing up to it due to some other danger near its present location. So don't be afraid to hang onto something that might not be your theme weapon if you run across a decent one. Having a backup weapon take up an extra inventory slot or two is better than getting in a situation where you need it and not having anything that works. :)

[Therigar]

fort , undead , constructs.

There are very limited situations where fortification applies. Against undead both falchion and great axe suffer equally vs skeleton DR. Against constructs both falchion and great axe suffer equally vs DR but falchion has higher crit range so more chance to insta-kill.

As I continue to say, I'm comfortable with the ALWAYS. :cool:

[PopeJual]

There are very limited situations where fortification applies. Against undead both falchion and great axe suffer equally vs skeleton DR. Against constructs both falchion and great axe suffer equally vs DR but falchion has higher crit range so more chance to insta-kill.

As I continue to say, I'm comfortable with the ALWAYS. :cool:

That's because you don't understand what "always" means.

Edit: it's entirely possible to give well reasoned and insightful advice that correctly points new players (or vets who misunderstand how the crit profile effects a weapon) toward a Falchion instead of a Greataxe. I agree that a Falchion is better than the Greataxe in a VERY large majority of combat situations. A Falchion is NOT ALWAYS superior to a Greataxe, however.

1) Autocrit situations
2) situations when you own a high quality Greataxe but you do not own a high quality Falchion
3) situations when you can bypass DR with a Greataxe that you own but you cannot bypass DR with a Falchion that you own.
4) situations when you are overwhelmed by an opponent's DR and you need the extra multiple to actually do any damage (exceptionally rare cases, but I have seen this occur)

In particular, numbers 2 and 3 above are VASTLY more significant than the crit profile of the two weapons.
Which should you use in part 4 of the Shroud... a Holyburst Silver Greataxe of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane? Or a +5 Flaming Burst Byshek Falchion of Deception?

[Therigar]

That's because you don't understand what "always" means.

Edit: it's entirely possible to give well reasoned and insightful advice that correctly points new players (or vets who misunderstand how the crit profile effects a weapon) toward a Falchion instead of a Greataxe. I agree that a Falchion is better than the Greataxe in a VERY large majority of combat situations. A Falchion is NOT ALWAYS superior to a Greataxe, however.

1) Autocrit situations
2) situations when you own a high quality Greataxe but you do not own a high quality Falchion
3) situations when you can bypass DR with a Greataxe that you own but you cannot bypass DR with a Falchion that you own.
4) situations when you are overwhelmed by an opponent's DR and you need the extra multiple to actually do any damage (exceptionally rare cases, but I have seen this occur)

In particular, numbers 2 and 3 above are VASTLY more significant than the crit profile of the two weapons.
Which should you use in part 4 of the Shroud... a Holyburst Silver Greataxe of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane? Or a +5 Flaming Burst Byshek Falchion of Deception?

Not true. I completely understand what always means. And the examples you provide are such rare exceptions that they do not discount the value of my point of view.

I can manipulate any encounter situation to show nearly any weapon to be better for that one specific event. So what? It just shows how focused on the unusual I can be (as well as my need to win some nitpick debate on word choice). What I am talking about does not incorporate those types of situations and I don't care if it is technically incorrect to use always.

If I start at L1 with the thought in my mind that I want falchions as my two-handed weapon of choice then I put myself in position to shop and trade for falchions. I may get some pull that gives me that Holy Burst Silver Great Axe of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane. I'm still actively seeking the falchion equivalent.

And, I know it is out there and not being used because -- thanks to forum posters -- the player population thinks great axes pwn. You don't overcome that uninformed opinion by temporizing on the value of falchions. You alter forum opinion by taking a stand that you always prefer falchion over great axe. So I refuse to temporize by saying "almost always" or "usually" in this particular discussion. Instead I hold fast to the already stated opinion that I am comfortable with "always."

If you are not then fine. But you are focused on the wrong issue. It isn't about the few cases where you manufacture a case for great axe. It is about the 99.9% of the cases where falchion is the better choice.

OTOH, maybe I should conceed the issue to you and join the great axe fan club. AH prices on falchions will stay low that way and the ignorant will trade that holy burst silver falchion of greater evil outsider bane (much better than lawful outsider bane) for my totally awesome great axe. :D

[PopeJual]

You don't overcome that uninformed opinion by temporizing on the value of falchions. You alter forum opinion by taking a stand that you always prefer falchion over great axe. So I refuse to temporize by saying "almost always" or "usually" in this particular discussion. Instead I hold fast to the already stated opinion that I am comfortable with "always."

You overcome underinformed opinions by providing accurate and useful information on WHY a Falchion works better than a Greataxe and then you give reasons why the few occasions where a Greataxe will outperform a Falchion are not significant. K1ngp1n did an OUTSTANDING job of that.

You do not overcome underinformed opinions by providing inaccurate information that ends up causing people to discount your entire post. If someone notice one grossly inaccurate statement, then how many other inaccuracies will there be that the person don't notice? Especially when that person is reading a post on a subject where they don't have a lot of prior knowledge?

Giving someone the information that they need to persuade themselves is a lot more effective than just telling someone what their opinion should be.


If you are not then fine. But you are focused on the wrong issue. It isn't about the few cases where you manufacture a case for great axe. It is about the 99.9% of the cases where falchion is the better choice.

Even leaving aside the fact that your "99.9" is grossly inflated, have you even considered the fact that someone might build a character with autocrit situations in mind? Perhaps a Barbarian or Fighter who takes the Stunning Blow feat? Perhaps someone who is looking forward to Epic content with a semi-static group that contains a caster and would like to be more effective in Epic while they're still farming for an Epic SoS instead of waiting for an Epic SoS to be effective?


OTOH, maybe I should conceed the issue to you and join the great axe fan club.
Have you seen me suggest to people that they should be weilding Greataxes as their primary weapon? I just think that people should actually look at the different weapons and not just say "Greataxe GOOD, Falchion BAD" or "Falchion GOOD, Greataxe BAD."

Actually, I just thought of another occasion where a Greataxe can outperform a similar Falchion: Carnifex. A Carnifex is going to beat the pants off of just about any ML 4 Falchion that you care to name against most monsters that are vulnerable to critical hits. Heck, even a Rangers would generally perform better swinging around a Carnifex during levels 4 and 5 than weilding a pair of Khopeshes. Should someone avoid taking the Carnifex at the end of Delera's because "everyone knows that Greataxes are lame?"


AH prices on falchions will stay low that way and the ignorant will trade that holy burst silver falchion of greater evil outsider bane (much better than lawful outsider bane) for my totally awesome great axe. :D

Honestly, I'd be delighted with a Holy Burst Silver Quarterstaff of Regular [Lwful/Evil] Outsider Bane. A Greataxe would certainly be better and a Falchion better still, but if someone has an extra burning a hole in their pocket, please feel free to send me a PM. :)

[Therigar]

If the debate is greataxe v falchion then I am comfortable with the always. It will be always for the vast majority of players and if there are players for whom that does not apply, well, good for them.

But, for the forum audience "always" is a better concept than "sometimes" since the number of "sometimes" is so close to 100% that they will never see the difference.

Read this post. :eek:

I really do applaud your ability to eek out the rarest of situations. However, the exceptions prove the rule.

If building a THF character build around falchion -- always. :cool:

Edit: FWIW, if building around auto-crit then you are a gimp if you go THF w anything. All you need to be able to do is hit. TWF w a x4 multiplier is far superior damage. WF barbarian in full rage w PA enhancements dual wielding greensteel heavy picks FTW. :D

[PopeJual]

Read this post. :eek:

I really do applaud your ability to eek out the rarest of situations. However, the exceptions prove the rule.

If building a THF character build around falchion -- always. :cool:

What's to build around? You'll end up taking the exact same attributes and feats and skils on a character that weilds Falchions as you would take on a character that weilds Greataxes. The only difference that might come in is for a Kensai and a Kensai can pick a new weapon just by swapping out enhancements.

Levels 1-4 - weild anything because it doesn't matter
Levels 4-10ish - weild a Carnifex or whatever appropriate DR breaking weapon you can get your hands on.
Levels 11ish-16ish - weild a variety of weapons, mostly based on what you can find for a reasonable price on the AH. Did you find a cheap +3 Vorpal scimitar? Go ahead and weild it.
Levels 16-20 - craft a Min II Falchion if you want to play non-Epic. Consider crafting a Min II Greataxe if you want to play Epic because you're going to put significant effort into making sure your enemies ARE in an autocrit situation whenever possible. Craft a Pos/Pos/Pos (or even just a Pos/Pos) Maul for beating on Skeletons in Epic. Start to find exceptionally good weapons based on the weapon's prefix and suffix in chests and on the AH. Pay attention to the +bonus, prefix, suffix, metal type AND crit range when deciding which weapon to use.

Other than crafting a greensteel weapon, what is there to "build around?"

Also, the phrase "the exception proves the rule" doesn't mean what you think it means either. "Prove" in that case means to test or challenge similar to the phrase "proving grounds." The exception tests the rule or challenges it. The exception does not validate the rule.

If you say that people ALWAYS have eyes that are colored brown or blue or green and I introduce you to Elizabeth Taylor, I have provided an exception that proves the rule - I have challenged your rule and I have shown that your assertion is incorrect. It doesn't take more than a rare situation (and is a Carnifex really all that rare?) to prove a claim of "always" to be incorrect.

Here's a suggestion


Falchions are a better choice than Greataxes for a large majority of players. Greataxes do outperform Falchions in some situations, but those cases are uncommon and should only be considered by people who have specific build goals in mind. How difficult is that?


(Edit: The other use for "the exception proves the rule" is when an exception to a rule is listed giving an implication of the rules existance even wihtout prior knowledge of that rule. For example: If I tell my son, "Because it's your birthday, you don't have to go to bed at 8:00 tonight," you may correctly infer that there is a rule that requires him to go to bed at 8:00 each night even though you never heard me state the rule explicitly.)

[Postumus]

Not only am I still comfortable saying falchion is ALWAYS better than great axe, I'm also comfortable saying players should NEVER take great axe.


What if I have a super sweet great axe and a really crummy falchion?

[PopeJual]

What if I have a super sweet great axe and a really crummy falchion?

Nope. Falchion is ALWAYS better.

ALWAYS in this case means *almost always*, however. And by *almost always*, of course, I mean somewhere between "often" and "usually".

[wolflordnexus]

It sucks that I wont be able to do as much damage, but I guess I'm not overly concerned. I saw something on greatclub of the scrag, and it looked pretty cool, so, I'll look into finding one. If it comes down to it and i'm miserably unhappy, I guess I could re-feat, and choose a different weapon. On a side note, I had considered a staff, but they all seemed caster-centric. They do much much much less damage, and i like mass destruction. I guess the great club is the middle of the road. It isnt a maul or a greatsword, but its also not a dagger or a shortsword. I'm hoping the flair will compensate for some of the shortcomings. I guess there isn't too much to be said for style over substance, but I still like the concept, so I think I might go for it with the GC.

The problem here is outside of a few named great clubs that look great Great clubs look Stupid it looks like a regular tiny club that your holding in 2 hands trust me I have a stunner and an ever bright and they really suck

[t0r012]

Originally Posted by what Therigar should be saying
Falchions are a better choice than Greataxes for a large majority of players. Greataxes do outperform Falchions in some situations, but those cases are uncommon and should only be considered by people who have specific build goals in mind.

so like the whole level 3-14 where it is chock full of undead?

just like say the falc always wins which is clearly not the case for the first 14 levels as I have posted above since that content is absolutely rife with undead.

the some one comes in and say but,but,but a great sword is better vs undead. but I wasn't comparing GS and GA , it was a comparo of GA vs the "always" better Falc.

yes of course a maul is a better skelly beater no s, sherlock I never would have guessed a blunt dr passer would have been better against a blunt dr mob. but even still it still holds that it was a comparison of a great axe and an "always" superior Falchion

thing is , each weapon has it advantages and disadvantages changeable through situations. For early levels falc is in many instances the poorest martial two hander because the early game is riddled with undead who are crit immune.
Only in rare cases is the G axe the "best" but for all around use, my opinion its the way to go leveling because there are also so few situations where it is the "worst".

Unless you want to keep the whole rack of two handers in their various incarnations ghost touch, PG, bleed, ect. but I'm not willing to tote around and swap between 8-10-12 weapons as the situation warrants.
An Ooze beater, an X of PG great axe, and a Ghost Touch of PG Maul/great club is about all the switcing around I'm willing to do when grinding up through most of the "early" content (tough to call 13 or 14 levels out of 20 "early"). With that setup of 3 weapons I can be pretty much assured I'm not going to have the "worst" weapon in my hand for the situation unlike with a Falchion. Are there times when I wish I had a bothered to bring Falchion, sure, but they are so few and far between that the utility is out weighed by the inconvenience.

After you pass the undead-a-thon that is "early" game grab a falch.

[Therigar]

What if I have a super sweet great axe and a really crummy falchion?

Nope. Falchion is ALWAYS better.

ALWAYS in this case means *almost always*, however. And by *almost always*, of course, I mean somewhere between "often" and "usually".

I knew you'd finally come around. :D

[testing1234]

the large majority of great clubs look short and ugly, ive not found any race on which the greatclub looks well.
the greatclub of the scrab if the named item thats the exception to the rule, personally i think qstaffs on the otherhand sevral of the randomly generated look very nice and the uniqe swing animation is also appealing.

dont have any problem with people making none mini-max decision on weapons but at the very lest pick on that looks good

[Therigar]

so like the whole level 3-14 where it is chock full of undead?


This sort of misrepresentation of reality is where the biggest problem is found.

Do a look up of the quests by checking this excellent thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=122192). Do a fact check.

L4 quests, 4 of 13 are primarily undead.
L5 quests, 6 of 18 are primarily undead.
L6 quests, 3 of 18 are primarily undead.
L7 quests, 2 of 12 are primarily undead and 1 of those has no skeletons.
L8 quests, 8 of 18 are primarily undead but 5 of those have no skeletons.
L9 quests, 2 of 11 are primarily undead and neither of them has skeletons.
L10 quests, 1 out of 15 is primarily undead and it doesn't have skeletons.
L11 quests, wait, aren't you L14 yet?, nm, L11 quests 7 of 17 are primarily undead but 4 don't have skeletons and 1 is usually beaten with wall of fire.
L12 quests, now if you are not L14 by the time you've done all the other quests there is an issue, still 2 of 8 involve undead.

I can't figure out how anyone could make such an uninformed claim about leveling from 3-14 and claim that the dominant mob being faced is undead. Even more important is to recognize that, other than skeletons, the only other common undead with DR is zombies which are DR/slashing. Oops, falchion....

Listen (err, read?), I really do understand that there are some situations where a slashing weapon won't be the best. But, these are exceptions and not the rule. Just as it is true that an everbright blunt weapon will be better against oozes, knowing that other weapons will have situational uses is good. But, the discussion isn't about situations that are exceptions. It is about the situations that are routine and commonplace.

If we are discussing whether to go with a THF build or not and what the focus of that build should be we do a disservice by not saying 1) THF is inferior as a fighting style but 2) if you go with THF then focus on falchion as your weapon of choice.

This is something that we should ALWAYS tell players because both are true. The OP wanted to go with great club for flavor. Fine. I'm in the guild Council of Village Idiots. We fully comprehend that people will make flavor builds and there is nothing that will discourage them. To the contrary, I have habitually ENCOURAGED flavor builds.

But, it is irresponsible not to point out that going with a flavor build brings significant disadvantages. You know, if you have a silver holy burst great axe of greater lawful outsider bane then by all means use it in Shroud. Most people will be crafting greensteel. If you are in that majority then don't be stupid -- craft a Mineral II falchion for your boss beater if you've already opted for the THF combat style.

This isn't about dusting off every exception. It is about what will bring the most benefit long-term in the majority of encounters. That means examining build choices. A player wanting to make THF most effective will do the following:

1. Obtain the highest possible STR to boost STR damage.
2. Obtain weapon feats that increase to hit and to damage including Power Attack.
3. If Kensai invest in falchion as the weapon of choice UNLESS a TR with a Sword of Shadows in the waiting. Here is the only existing situation where going with a focus different from falchion is justified. Epic Sword of Shadows is simply too powerful to continue to back falchion. (Thus why 99.9% of the time falchion is the best choice.)
4. Obtain enhancements to boost to hit and to damage.
5. Obtain all feats and enhancements to improve slashing damage. Because the best damage profiles come from slashing weapons this needs to be incorporated into the build.

There is nothing that changes this. While people can trot out exceptions where blunt or piercing would do more damage (not that piercing is an option for THF) the fact is that the number of times when that matters is well below the number of times when slashing does more damage.

As a result no THF build should ever be focused on anything other than slashing and no slashing build should focus on anything other than falchion.

A comment on:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Weapons/Carnifex.jpg

This ML4 weapon is bind on acquire. To get the equivalent in a different weapon look for something that is race restricted.

Final point (because those that want to understand already have the information they need and those that just want to argue in the cracks are going to continue to do so regardless): As you acquire useful gear bind it to your character. You will then always have the item and it will be available to you when you reincarnate. Prior to reincarnation this wasn't a good idea because gear got passed on to low level characters. Now, however, it is a good idea.

[PopeJual]

As a result no THF build should ever be focused on anything other than slashing and no slashing build should focus on anything other than falchion.

I'll withhold my comment since there's something else here...



A comment on:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Items/Weapons/Carnifex.jpg

This ML4 weapon is bind on acquire. To get the equivalent in a different weapon look for something that is race restricted.

First, Carnifex binds to account, so you can use it while you level and then pass it to another one of your characters. I'm pleased to have two Carnifexi, so I can have two different characters weild a Carnifex at the same time.

There is NO equivalent to Carnifex in Falchion form. The reason why a normal Falchion is better than a normal Greataxe for most situations is that it has an 18-20 crit range with its x2 crit. That means you essentially get three "extra" attacks on every 20 swings. A normal Greataxe has a 20/x3 profile which means you get 2 "extra" attacks on every 20 swings.

Carnifex is not a normal Greataxe, however. Carnifex offers 8 (eight) extra attacks on every 20 swings. If a Falchion's crit profile of three is better than a regular Greataxe's crit profile of two, then wouldn't you think that a Carnifex's crit profile of EIGHT is better still? When you compare an identical Falchion and Greataxe, the Falchion is a modest (4.8%) improvement over the Greataxe. A Carnifex is a 23% improvement over a regular +2 Falchion.

There is NO better generic primary two handed weapon for low levels on a melee focused character than a Carnifex. Even if you get a Keen Falchion, the Carnifex is STILL Better. You can get a Carnifex as an uncommon option for the end reward for running the Delera's Tomb quest chain or at your local S-Mart. Shop smart. Shop S-mart.



Final point (because those that want to understand already have the information they need and those that just want to argue in the cracks are going to continue to do so regardless): As you acquire useful gear bind it to your character. You will then always have the item and it will be available to you when you reincarnate. Prior to reincarnation this wasn't a good idea because gear got passed on to low level characters. Now, however, it is a good idea.

Characters level fast enough that you'll leave your newbie gear behind long before it breaks. Binding and attuning gear is a terrible idea for most items. You may note that I did not say it is *ALWAYS* a terrible idea. There are some good reasons to bind and attune some items, but binding them just so that you'll always have them is silly. By the time you Reincarnate, you'll have vastly superior low level gear than the stuff you accumulate as you level through your first or second character. All that binding your gear will do is make you unable to sell that gear later on and you'll end up with a backpack and bank full of trash. Even if you don't bind your gear, it will still be available to you when you reincarnate.

You do NOT need to bind and attune your equipment in order to keep it. It will occasionally pick up some permanent damage. That's okay. You can still use it if it's scratched and dented. You can also pass it to another, lower level character of yours once you have outgrown it. And then you can pass it back to your Reincarnated character after you choose to Reincarnate (IF you choose to Reincarnate).

[Rakion]

yay for stat battles! Thank you all for the information. I really do appreciate it. 'I think I learned something today...' I will make sure to keep multiple weapons on me based on the situation, but apparently the best blunt 2hw is a maul, and the best edged weapon is the dagger... er great axe... er falchion, definately falchion. Glad I didnt mention that I had been considering using 2 shortwords before I got on the great club kick :p
My main is a wiz, he's the one that I can smack down everything I come across with, and he's the one I'm concerned with. Every other toon is an alt that I play to have fun with. Now that I have more knowledge on how dps of melee weapons work, and have more of an insight into what I should be looking at when I use a fighter, I think I am more well equipped to deal with choosing feats and picking weapons. I appreciate the help and facts and statistics, and even the fun factor of watching everyone verbally spar. I will make sure I have at least one falchion on me at all times on my fighter. (I'm almost afraid to ask a question on the monk forum :p)

Again, thanks for all the help guys.

[ChaosEmperorDragon]

Noob Q of the day: No one uses a great sword these days?

[Dunfalach]

Noob Q of the day: No one uses a great sword these days?

Many people use greatswords. They're just not usually the min/max folks. A min/max will in most cases use the weapon(s) they personally consider the highest damage output, and among two-handers that's generally not the greatsword. It lacks the critical multiplier of the greataxe and the critical range of the falchion, so the min/max will consider one or the other superior.

That doesn't, of course, mean that if a min/max built around one of the other two pulled a greatsword with really nice modifiers they wouldn't possibly use it in situations where those modifiers gave it extra damage against particular mobs until they manage to get one of their preferred type with the same. :)

All that said, I am sure a trip through the forums could find you some greatsword builds. There is a difference between "not doing maximum damage" and "can't get you through a quest". That's the difference between a min/max build and everyone else.

[jwdaniels]

For people that don't have the inclination (or the ability) to analyze permutations and combinations and figure out average damage and things, I think that the debate can be summed up sort of like this:

Greataxe is clearly the best of the 2H slashing weapons in certain situations and in others it is the worst. The falchion is clearly the best when the greataxe is the worst and clearly the worst when the greataxe is the best. The greatsword is pretty much always middle of the road compared to the other two. Therefore, min/max players will argue all day whether the greataxe or falchion is the best and non miin/max players will tend to use greatswords for their consistent good but not necessarily the best performance.

As far as two-handed blunt weapons go, the maul is strictly better than the greatclub unless the greatclub has effects on it that make it better than the maul for a particular situation; in all cases where the two have the same effects the maul will always be better.

[Aranticus]

Many people use greatswords. They're just not usually the min/max folks. A min/max will in most cases use the weapon(s) they personally consider the highest damage output, and among two-handers that's generally not the greatsword. It lacks the critical multiplier of the greataxe and the critical range of the falchion, so the min/max will consider one or the other superior.

That doesn't, of course, mean that if a min/max built around one of the other two pulled a greatsword with really nice modifiers they wouldn't possibly use it in situations where those modifiers gave it extra damage against particular mobs until they manage to get one of their preferred type with the same. :)

All that said, I am sure a trip through the forums could find you some greatsword builds. There is a difference between "not doing maximum damage" and "can't get you through a quest". That's the difference between a min/max build and everyone else.

wrong answer

min max wf fvs are very likely to use greatswords. thf min maxers at end game ideally would use a greatsword

[Aranticus]

carnifex is not overpowered due to it being keen. it is overpowered because of its expanded crit range. a keen axe is only 19-20. carnifex is 17-20. its like the thf khopesh version

[pasterqb]

When I looked up damage, it showed it did the same as most of the two handers, and had the same threat range. At least thats what it said in the compendium. Thats why I made the choice I did.


Greatclub has 1d10 20/x2
Maul has 1d10 20/x3
Greatsword has 1d12 19-20/x2
Greataxe has 2d6 20/x3
Falchion has 2d4 18-20/x2

It's like bring a spoon to a gun fight >.>

Although a Greatclub will bypass bludgeon dr which is nice and can stun it is a good bit worse than a maul which can do the same.
And if your idea is to carry multiple weapons:
I would like to point out you lose all your Weapon Specific Enhancements unless you take multiple which can cost a lot of action points.

And if switching between Bludgeon and Slash you loose pretty much everything likes feats, enhancements.

[Dunfalach]

wrong answer

min max wf fvs are very likely to use greatswords. thf min maxers at end game ideally would use a greatsword

*chuckles* Hiya, Aranticus. Allow me to rephrase to "most min/maxers I've seen arguing about it". Not being a min/max myself, that's what I was judging by. It always seems to be an axe vs falchion argument when I encounter it.

The end game reference is one of the epic weapons right? SoS perhaps? I haven't hit endgame yet so I haven't had to worry about it.

[ragwa1]

max DPS is only ever used when you have to sit there and beat on a boss or stuff with enough HP that can't be stunned.

For all the other times , the rest of the 99% of the game I'll take the 1d12 x3of the great axe over a 2d4 x2.
With great axe do more base and when you crit what ever you are swinging at is dead. where as a falc sure you get more crits but it takes more swings to kill even after a crit you likely have to swing again anyway.

Anything that can be stunned I'll take a great axe. anything with fort or crit immunity like undead , I'll take a great axe. basically bosses that you have to swing at for a couple min to work them down go falc , for everything else give me the Gaxe or even a maul.

You're wrong, but you're entitled to your own opinion.

[Mister_Peace]

What if I have a super sweet great axe and a really crummy falchion?

then you're a loser, and you should delete your character right after mailing me that axe

[Woundwolf42]

So where does an Epic Antique Greataxe fall in comparison to a MinII Falchion?

Does the expanded Base Dmg Make up for its shortcoming in crit range?

[Dylvish]

yes for martial they are the lowest but the unqualified



needed correcting.

No it didn't, your just muddying the waters here with that comment. Qstaff is a simple weapon, and with maybe 1 or 2 in a thousand as the exception, the only classes using Qstaff will be a monk or Acro rogue, which get built in haste. When you factor in the haste, the Qstaff out performs the Gclub.

Another note of consideration for the OP: Last I checked, Great Club also had the slowest animation of the 2handers (which appears to factor into the actual swings per minute). If I remember correctly its about 10% slower than the other weapons. Qstaff comes out at the fastest, base speed in the hands of a monk is 112 spm.

So you will be not hitting as hard, or as fast.

[Aranticus]

No it didn't, your just muddying the waters here with that comment. Qstaff is a simple weapon, and with maybe 1 or 2 in a thousand as the exception, the only classes using Qstaff will be a monk or Acro rogue, which get built in haste. When you factor in the haste, the Qstaff out performs the Gclub.

Another note of consideration for the OP: Last I checked, Great Club also had the slowest animation of the 2handers (which appears to factor into the actual swings per minute). If I remember correctly its about 10% slower than the other weapons. Qstaff comes out at the fastest, base speed in the hands of a monk is 112 spm.

So you will be not hitting as hard, or as fast.

The context of this whole post is about fighters. I agree with the monk n acrobat thou. As to weapon speeds, eladrin confirmed they have been normalized. When was it you checked?

[Dylvish]

Apparently a while ago. I stand corrected and informed. When did they do the normalization?

[Aranticus]

Apparently a while ago. I stand corrected and informed. When did they do the normalization?

Update 5 or 6. Which is why falchions are the in weapon now

[Loromir]

It is absolutely amazing that players continue to advocate greataxe when the facts demonstrate that it is an inferior weapon. If people would take a moment to look at the graph k1ngp1n posted they will see that falchion is consistently superior.

What is more, the feats used to focus on falchion are the same ones that you would use for Sword of the Shadow which is seems to be the Holy Grail of two-handed weapons (and a greatsword). The loyalty to greataxes is not justified by the facts.

A shame that it continues to insert itself into these discussions.

As long as Carnifex exists, Great Axe will stay in the conversation. Aside from that, Falchion is da bomb.

[mohha3]

the greatclub is good but ur best choice would be wat warforged exel on


i do not have a warforged warrior so i cant help u there but like all classes they have a weapon boost for me (dwarf) i exel in greataxes so wat every your type exels in go with that.......if you have nothing well then i guess you go with wats better sometimes its a greatclub sometimes its a greataxe but wat ever happens i hope u follo some of the advise given to you by the people here sure some ideas werent as good as others but thats there thot so do wat u think is best :)