Are paladins underpowered in epic?

[LookingForABentoBox]

I was discussing this with another paladin and I'd like to hear your opinion.

If you're knight of the chalice, epic has a lot less evil outsiders than pre-epic end game. If you're defender of siberys, well, AC isn't generally the way to go in epic. (Comedy hunter of the dead option.) In any event, you'll be fighting a lot of neutral enemies such as rats, hyenas, scorpions, mephits, etc., where the paladin capstone and smite evil won't be effective at all.

On the other hand,

Divine might, divine sacrifice, zeal, and divine favor all work on neutral enemies. A paladin is likely to have higher saves than any other melee class. There still are a bunch of evil outsiders in epic (though it would have been nice for kotc to apply its damage on ranged attacks vs Lailat) and lay on hands has saved my life a bunch of times.

What are your thoughts?

[Thelmallen]

I don't really have an opinion about paladins on epic other than they got torpedoe'd by the TWF nerf; what I really want to know, however, is what the heck is a Bento box and why are you looking for one? :D

[Goldeneye]

IMO: Fighters and Barbs dominate epic, though paladins are still useful. Auto crit enemies + smites can produce a lot of damage.

[AylinIsAwesome]

5x Multiplier with Heavy Picks seems fine to me. ;)


Also I mostly do eADQ2 on my Paladin (looking for Chaosblades), so I see some nice numbers there too.

[shadow_419]

I wouldn't call it underpowered, but lacking a bit certainly in the two main epics (VON/Sands). The quests my pally excels in are DQ1/DQ2 due to the high number of evil outsiders. The specialization vs. evil outsiders for KoTC pally helps in the Big Top and should also help in the U7 epics. It's the same with most of the game really though.

[LookingForABentoBox]

what I really want to know, however, is what the heck is a Bento box and why are you looking for one? :D

It's a Japanese lunch box. Started as a post on the something awful forums marketplace that I found hilarious. It is now a meme on SA as well as converting any word into japanese by adding -u to it, i.e., the Japanese word for anime would be animu

http://i56.tinypic.com/r8c849.png

[LookingForABentoBox]

double post

[TheDearLeader]

Getting a high enough to-hit against non-evil mobs, such as vermin, can be an issue. OTWF, which used to be unnecessary, suddenly becomes a very useful feat.

Sometimes as a Paladin, its fine to play with some things. Rahl's Might? Not half bad. Drops the AC of the mob in question, and has a decently high damage dice. I've seen some pretty high Crit Smites outta that thing on Epic.

Just keep playing, see what's right for you. Of course, THF with Epic SoS seems to be a great option for any class that swings a weapon, but other epics like the Antique Greataxe are faster to obtain. And with the Paladin's Capstone, that's a DR buster all by itself.

[dkyle]

other epics like the Antique Greataxe are faster to obtain. And with the Paladin's Capstone, that's a DR buster all by itself.

Antique Greataxe can be easily mad a DR buster for anyone. Just put Good in the red slot. After that, it's almost as good as a MinII. eSoS cannot be made a Pit Fiend DR buster except by a pure 20 Pali.

[smckelv]

No not underpowered, for many reasons you mentioned already such as divine sac. working fine in epic. For me, It is good to have plenty of decent random loot weapons for the situation (still lacking epic weapons). For example I came across a +10 seeker greatsword of pure good recently that smacks for 110+ quite often even on normal crit attacks. Sure I'm not getting the KotC against everything, but Pallys are crit hungry attackers so even a non-epic bloodstone pally would give good results in epic.

It helps to have a +2 attack item such as Tumbleweed, etc. Early on in my epics I tended to turn PA off just to avoid missing too much, but add in some GH buffs and you are usually OK. (speaking from THF with feats). This also assumes quality crowd control from your party members.

I epic party mostly with my PrE III dps THF fighter guildmate and seem to get about the same results. YMMV.

[Goldeneye]

Ha ha. Crits for 110... remember to bring a few extra melee into your group.

On my fighter, my base damage with eSoS is ~100 :)

It would probly be better to use a Greataxe (x3 crit, instead of greataxe x2) in epic.

[LookingForABentoBox]

Ha ha. Crits for 110... remember to bring a few extra melee into your group.

On my fighter, my base damage with eSoS is ~100 :)

It would probly be better to use a Greataxe (x3 crit, instead of greataxe x2) in epic.

Meh I'd have a hard time giving up my +2 to attack +4 to damage on falchions. I also have an upgraded dreamspitter with force critical on it which I often use on autocritted mobs

[Alternative]

If anything, paladins lack a bit in terms of to-hit, and require a lot of buffing to be able to run around in epics with PA on. Divine might III gives 12str worth of damage, but not to-hit. That's why it is important to start your paladin with as high str as possible, with 16str being imo a minimum. Get a tod ring with exceptional str, ravager set is great for epics, keep your divine favor up, GH or bard song, get a guild buff if you can. And start grinding oob for epic spectrals :) Currently I only turn PA off when fighting wiz king or von6 djinnis.

Dps is as great as the gear you have - one fun thing about high hp epic mobs is that my pally gets to see lightning strikes so often. 1d6+11 sneak attack damage with radiance guard, ravager set etc, all a matter of build and gear really. My pally (sustained 619hp 40str, human, twf, evasion) tanked epic demon queen in a guild run with only other tanky melee being a halfling fighter.

Now if you get a low hp undergeared paladin with something like 26str then yea, your party slot is wasted. But hey, ran epic oob with a fighter that was using tier2 gs weapons. Classism is a bad thing.

[lord_of_rage]

I have a pair of earth grab hvy picks for epic. Once things are in auto crit fire off smites and ds and life is good.

[PopeJual]

Can we mention the special KotC bonus vs. Undead for the Epic desert quests or is that not allowed?

[elraido]

Ha ha. Crits for 110... remember to bring a few extra melee into your group.

On my fighter, my base damage with eSoS is ~100 :)

It would probly be better to use a Greataxe (x3 crit, instead of greataxe x2) in epic.

While I agree 110 for base damage is a little low on crits...but you are talking about a fighter with one of the most difficult weapons in the game to get.

[LookingForABentoBox]

Can we mention the special KotC bonus vs. Undead for the Epic desert quests or is that not allowed?

It is a nice bonus but for someone who runs epic phiarlan carnival almost daily I wish that it would work properly vs native outsiders instead :( It is a nice bug that it applies to undead but it's made up for by not working vs tieflings

[TheDearLeader]

Antique Greataxe can be easily mad a DR buster for anyone. Just put Good in the red slot. After that, it's almost as good as a MinII. eSoS cannot be made a Pit Fiend DR buster except by a pure 20 Pali.

Couple things.

First, "Good" Doesn't need to be slotted on the Greataxe, if we're talking about this Pure Paladin situation. Paladin Weapons of Good + Metalline are wonderful combinations. Also, I would challenge the "almost as good as a Min II".

+5 Greensteel Greataxe (3d6, 20/x3) With Holy, +2d6 vs. Evil, Acid Burst, +1d6 acid, +1d10/2d10/3d10 on crit - , Acid Blast (1d10 * 2 on Critical, + 4d6 on 20) - Transmuting, Keen/Impact, Slicing (+1d4 Bleed damage)

Versus 2d12 + Force Burst.

It depends. The Antique Greataxe would be better versus devils, as it has a higher base damage, and the 1d6 Force + 2d10 Force Burst vs only 2d6 Holy. This is assuming that the great Improved Critical : Slashing is trained. The Acid Damage is negligible versus the bosses that a Min II is used on, as they are immune or overly resistant.

In epics, as asked, Min II may be slightly greater if the Paladin just swings. The additional ticks of acid could add up very quickly, and overcome the base damage of the Antique Greataxe. However, if the mobs are being autostunned (as they should be), proper applications of Divine Sacrifice and Exalted Smite IV will allow the Antique to pull ahead, as that higher base damage translates into higher crits. Expect to see the smites land easily in the high 600s.

Antique is +6, Green steel is +5. For a class that sometimes complains about trouble healing, another +1 to-hit isn't bad.

Neither's a bad item. How you use them determines which is better.

[smckelv]

No question that epic weapons like eSoS and and epic Antique GA will rule the DPS world on epic. But I'm saying that in my experience a decent Pally can hang with more readily available weapons. Normal crits with seeker combined with Divine Sacs and Smites will add enough DPS to "not waste a party slot", etc. IMO

All situational too, quests like Big Top and VoN1 have very standard ways to epic which almost any DPS can handle...the casters make it so. But that being said, I've always been proud to bring my Pally's healing and buffing into the mix. We've done a few choice epics sans healer at times in my guild...not as easy, but doable with a plan.

Good luck looking for a well-timed LOH or raise scroll from your Barbarian party slot.

[TheDearLeader]

No question that epic weapons like eSoS and and epic Antique GA will rule the DPS world on epic. But I'm saying that in my experience a decent Pally can hang with more readily available weapons.

The rest of your post can be taken into consideration. However, let me address this shortly.

The Epic Sword of Shadow can be difficult to farm, yes. I've over 50 EV6 runs on my toons... no Shard for poor me. :(

The Epic Antique Greataxe, however, is about as "attainable" as one can get.

Scrolls may be random drops, but this loot table is small. It'll drop.
I've gotten confirmation from guildies that the Seal drops in the Epic Chest of Partycrashers and Snitch (Mine was in Snitch, Personally).
Even with one toon, that's twice/day that you can look for it. And the loot table for seals in those quests is even smaller - if you get a seal, there's maybe a 1 in 6 chance it'll be the right one. Not bad odd,s compared to VON.
The Shard drops from Big Top... but you're always guaranteed a Shard. That's a 1 in 18 chance every time you do that quest - again, really not bad odds compared to VON/Sands epics.
All these quests can be farmed, and therefore you are guaranteed a drop chance upon completion, daily.


Compare this farming to the alternatives...
Green Steel -

Say you want a Lit II Falchion/Min II Greataxe/whatever. I've seen plenty of people make it to 20 Shroud completions, not counting their farming runs, without enough Larges to create a single Tier III item.
If you're a TWF build, the problem is thus compounded by a factor of 2.
3 days between completions. Slow, and less reliable as Tier III requires some 20 something specific ingredients, two of which are BtC.
Also requires making the blank, which really? Getting the stuff together for a blank takes me a lot longer than the three House P Epics mentioned.


Specifics
Say you're a fighter kensai improved trip build looking for a Vertigo +10 Falchion, or a Barb with Stunning Blow looking for that +10 Stun Maul, maybe of certain types.
Or, maybe you're just a Paladin looking for +# (Holy/Shocking Burst) Silver of Greater Evil Outsider Bane.

These, or other Epic-appropriate Items, are rare. There is no reliable way to farm for them, or craft them. Their drop rate is so minimal that many players may never see the specific bonus/prefix/metal/weapon/suffix combination that they are looking for. And if they do? They see it on the AH for well outside of their price range.

In sum, while you've said some good things, I think most people would be hard pressed to find a better two-handed DPS option, for ease and speed of availability.

[smckelv]

The Epic Antique Greataxe, however, is about as "attainable" as one can get.
...

In sum, while you've said some good things, I think most people would be hard pressed to find a better two-handed DPS option, for ease and speed of availability.

I do agree, am working on attaining just that now. I have the shard and seal, need to run the chain itself a few more times to get a shot at it in the end rewards...no luck so far.

Bearing in mind that one has to run a few epics to get the parts to make this item epic. So I'm doing it with Greater X Bane, Seeker, or other appropriate random loot weapons and that I don't feel to terribly gimped doing so.

I think GEOB is fairly rare, but other types of bane such as Greater Montrous Humanoid, Orc, other types of outsider bane items seem to be plentiful in the AH on my server so that can always help in certain quests.

I'm sure that once I get my Epic Antique Greataxe I'll be able to bank a bunch of weapons that I won't use anymore for most situations. But I like to play a style which calls for situational weapons and pride myself on having something on hand in a pinch. Mostly I wanted people to get the idea that one can run epics with normal weapons, but good tactics and party makeup. And that a Pally is as good a DPS in epics even without epic gear.

(It always helps to run epics with your guilds or static groups no matter the party DPS makeup)

[TheDearLeader]

Mostly I wanted people to get the idea that one can run epics with normal weapons, but good tactics and party makeup. And that a Pally is as good a DPS in epics even without epic gear.

(It always helps to run epics with your guilds or static groups no matter the party DPS makeup)

Always true.

And, as for the Banes, they are nice. One advantage they have (Such as a +5 Flaming Greataxe of Greater Giant Bane) is that they can then be Icy Bursted by the Risia formulas. Its still not as good as green steel can be, but its nice due to the extra +4 to-hit. I know when people first started running Epic Sentinels, they had issues hitting the First Mates.

[LiquidShadow]

i see 1 problem here. all of u mention using different kind of items but well EVERY class can use it and get the same benefits as paladin. and ***? we are talking about paladin not just KoTC so leave that dmg and to hit bonus alone.

paladins have realy low to hit bonus and i think that divine might should grant to hit bonus too just like divine favor (and why is that bonus capped to +3 only?). it requires quite high base cha so if u want to have it u will have to sacrfice str anyway (or CON but i doubt u will do that).

[elraido]

paladins have realy low to hit bonus and i think that divine might should grant to hit bonus too just like divine favor (and why is that bonus capped to +3 only?). it requires quite high base cha so if u want to have it u will have to sacrfice str anyway (or CON but i doubt u will do that).

It was capped at +5 back when the level cap was 10. They took the nerf bat out, well because it was over powered at the time. They should really look at that again and bring the cap back up to +5. But there is no way they should have the divine might ability have a + to hit as well. Waaaaay to over powering. Basically anyone with Divine Might IV would have a +16 to their str score if that was the case. There has to be a trade off....and don't say well it is a one min clicky. My main can have it up for 17 straight minutes if they did that.

[LiquidShadow]

It was capped at +5 back when the level cap was 10. They took the nerf bat out, well because it was over powered at the time. They should really look at that again and bring the cap back up to +5. But there is no way they should have the divine might ability have a + to hit as well. Waaaaay to over powering. Basically anyone with Divine Might IV would have a +16 to their str score if that was the case. There has to be a trade off....and don't say well it is a one min clicky. My main can have it up for 17 straight minutes if they did that.

divine might IV doesnt have to grant +8 to hit bonus. maybe +4 instead. its different topic. but consider this. if u are thf paladin u are far behind barbarian in dmg anyway. that divine might bonus isnt as great as in case of twf paladin. but when u are twf paladin u need higher base dex for feats. that is ur trade off. u cant have high enough base str con dex and cha to get everything i guess. but i might be wrong. anyway i hope u see what i meant. as for that 1 min clicky, its pain in the ***. u lose some dps while fighting boss when u have to activate it. its not a big deal but its annoying