Build Assistance

[Hoglum]

I have a level 7 Spellsinger who plays with 2 others (a Paladin & Rogue). My main job is biffing and healing. I stand in the back and attempt to help with damage via bow shooting. I try to do the odds and ends since we are a small group. I was considering taking a couple Ranger levels to help in the shooting department. From the reading I have done on these boards, going pure Bard to level 20 doesn’t seem to be necessary. Would someone please tell me possible pros and cons to taking 2 Ranger levels in order to get Bow Strength and Rapid shot? I don’t plan on maximizing damage output but would like to contribute more than I currently am. From level 7, assuming it’s a feasible path, should I take the two levels at 8 and 9, and then return to attaining Bard levels?

I have looked at some of the builds other people have posted but haven’t found anything that fits the agenda. Any help/advise would be appreciated.

[8BitBanger]

Another option would be Fighter for the extra Feats, why not swing something with a blade if you want to help out with DPS? Or possibly take a lot more than just two levels Ranger/Fighter, at least four, maybe six. With the high UMD of a bard and AP in Wand and Scroll enhancements, you can cast Heal and Mass Cure Moderate pretty well from scrolls. Not sure what impact update 7 will have on Bards, it might become more advantageous to go straight Bard, but that fact will likely remain unchanged.

[dkyle]

Going pure bard on a Warchanter is not necessary. Going pure bard on a Spellsinger kind of is. You give up so much if you lose your capstone. A couple levels of ranger aren't going to give you enough to make up for that.

20 Bard w/ capstone gives you, in comparison to 19 Bard:
+1 attack/+1 damage to the entire party (inspire courage)
3 song uses, longer song durations
More SP from Bard level
+2 CHA, which means +1 to all DCs, UMD, and extra SP
+3 Spell Penetration (2 are from capstone, 1 from higher caster level)
+2 Enchantment DCs

Those two levels of Ranger are going to give you a slight boost to what is probably very low ranged DPS to begin with. Do you even have the STR to capitalize on bow strength?

[kelemvelor]

It depends really.

If you are just buffing and healing, then cross-classing may be a good option especially if you want to go range. However if you are planning to add crowd control to the mix, going pure bard may be a better option as you really do need the capstone to even out the low spell levels a bard has.

One of the solid options for a ranged bard is to go Elf and take the racial enhancement of Arcane Archer. Also take the prestige class of Warchanter and basically do decent range boosted by Inspire Courage while still having decent durations buffs. If going for this option, consider a 2 ranger / 2 fighter / 16 bard route.

edit: You guys post fast...

[unbongwah]

Most Spellsinger builds focus on CC spells; and for that you're best off staying pure for the capstone. If you were a Warchanter or Virtuoso - or if you don't care about CC spells - it's less important to stay pure.

However, the other problem is ranged DPS in DDO is pretty low unless you really work at it with the right build; takes a lot of feats (and the right stats) to get it anywhere near good. Bow STR & Rapid Shot are necessary but not sufficient to become a good archer, IMHO; by themselves they just make you a less crappy one. :cool:

If you can post your current build, it would be easier to see what you have to work with.

[Darkrok]

Don't splash in this case.

Splash builds can be very powerful in the end game. It sounds like your focus is on enjoying the game all the way through though. Taking those two levels waters down your bard abilities and will have you getting key things like new songs and spells 2 levels later.

In a few levels you'll be able to use a paralyzing crossbow. The rate of fire stinks but they can be useful if you'll be standing back anyways.

Also, you might want to consider switching over to Virtuoso at level 10 (when you can do it without a feat swap). If you guys are short-manning things Virtuoso is SOOO much better than Spellsinger given your group makeup.

[Hoglum]

It sounds like staying pure is the way to go. I think concentrating on crowd control will ultimately be my best contribution since damage isn’t going to happen unless I switch to a Warchanter. I struggled hard on deciding between Warchanter & Spellsinger, but the spellpoints & healing seemed to be the best path for our small group. +1 rep to unbongwah for stating Bow Strength and Rapid Shot would only make me a less crappy archer. Our party tends to get into trouble when I melee, so I’ll keep trying to stay back and focus on spells. The capstone sounds hard to pass up. When I started this build I didn’t have much knowledge this particular system, so I’m currently trying to mend past mistakes and plan better. The Bard has been the most difficult character to build for me. I’ve been able to direct my other characters fairly well but this one stumped me. I think I’ll look for some pure Spellsinger builds and loot ideas from there. Thank you all very much.

Shoot, right before I posted this I saw Darkrok’s suggestion to take a second look at Virtuoso. If you don’t mind, would you please give some reasons? It didn’t look too stout, but like I said, this system is still new to me. The problem I had with Spellsinger is that I don’t really have anyone to help with their casting. Is this part of it?

[Darkrok]

It sounds like staying pure is the way to go. I think concentrating on crowd control will ultimately be my best contribution since damage isn’t going to happen unless I switch to a Warchanter. I struggled hard on deciding between Warchanter & Spellsinger, but the spellpoints & healing seemed to be the best path for our small group. +1 rep to unbongwah for stating Bow Strength and Rapid Shot would only make me a less crappy archer. Our party tends to get into trouble when I melee, so I’ll keep trying to stay back and focus on spells. The capstone sounds hard to pass up. When I started this build I didn’t have much knowledge this particular system, so I’m currently trying to mend past mistakes and plan better. The Bard has been the most difficult character to build for me. I’ve been able to direct my other characters fairly well but this one stumped me. I think I’ll look for some pure Spellsinger builds and loot ideas from there. Thank you all very much.

Shoot, right before I posted this I saw Darkrok’s suggestion to take a second look at Virtuoso. If you don’t mind, would you please give some reasons? It didn’t look too stout, but like I said, this system is still new to me. The problem I had with Spellsinger is that I don’t really have anyone to help with their casting. Is this part of it?

Your crowd control with Virtuoso won't be off your SP bar. It will be using your songs. To qualify for Virtuoso without using a feat you'll have to take Extra Song IV which in this case would make sense anyways. You'll have 1 less DC on your crowd control and 100 less sp's but that won't be much of an issue when you're doing most of your crowd control with the Virtuoso-only Enthrall instead of fascinate.

Enthrall will save you boatload of sp's you would have had to spend healing since it requires a save for your enemies to break out of the enthrallment. With your high perform score this will almost always mean that the mob will need to roll a 20 to make its save. Basically this gives you about 12 hits on average to drop the enemy before it wakes up. In addition, you'll have the pre-requisites to take Music of the Dead and Music of the Maker. That will make undead/constructs much easier to deal with.

In addition you'll have an added bonus from Enthrall that will help deal with the 1 less DC on your crowd control - once mobs break Enthrallment they have a -2 to will saves.

[Hoglum]

Darkrok, that makes a whole lot of sense. I'll definitely take a look at that and see what it would take to possibly change over. The idea of doing crowd control while maintaining spellpoints is rather enticing. Catching undead and golems would help a lot too. Thanks a bundle!

[Darkrok]

Darkrok, that makes a whole lot of sense. I'll definitely take a look at that and see what it would take to possibly change over. The idea of doing crowd control while maintaining spellpoints is rather enticing. Catching undead and golems would help a lot too. Thanks a bundle!

The reason Virtuoso has such a bad rap is it's value is inversely proportional to group size. So when you're running 12-man raids or even a full, well-balanced 6-man group having crowd control that doesn't cause critical hits isn't overly valuable.

That said, running solo or short-manned like you're doing nothing compares to Virtuoso. I've played both on my current character, a max-str/high-con Warforged. My character's focus is on doing solid dps and very good healing while providing bard songs to the group (a set-up which honestly works well with all 3 PrE's). I haven't played him as a Spellsinger at all though I could easily do so with just an Enhancement respec but I've played as both Virtuoso and Warchanter along the way. My character is far more versatile and powerful as a Virtuoso. He's just more useful in raids as a Warchanter.

[elujin]

virtuoso is good in group of 6(aslong as the caster isn't a a pyro arsonist who needs to fw evrythng and evry where)
sure its not auto crit but it is the highst dc on a cc in the game .

its bad rep is in raids the uber max dps guys cry if they don't get there +7 dmg song
(actualy nobody ever made problems off my virtuoso in raids ) i try to compensate by playing the +10 fals life song more becous virtuoso have more songs anways .

[Darkrok]

virtuoso is good in group of 6(aslong as the caster isn't a a pyro arsonist who needs to fw evrythng and evry where)
sure its not auto crit but it is the highst dc on a cc in the game .

its bad rep is in raids the uber max dps guys cry if they don't get there +7 dmg song
(actualy nobody ever made problems off my virtuoso in raids ) i try to compensate by playing the +10 fals life song more becous virtuoso have more songs anways .

It's good in a group of 6 too, I agree. It's just not needed if you have a caster with a very high DC spamming mass holds. That said, I'm VERY seriously considering going back to virtuoso anyways for awhile. Enthrall is just that good. I may skip out on Music of the Dead/Makers in my build and go the Extra Song IV route to qualify so I don't have to swap out a feat to qualify. I'd still have to free up 3 more points which I guess I could drop from WF'd PA line.

[unbongwah]

As much as I enjoy being a Virt, I should point out you don't need the Virt PrE to take MotD and MoM if you have Extra Song IV.

[Darkrok]

As much as I enjoy being a Virt, I should point out you don't need the Virt PrE to take MotD and MoM if you have Extra Song IV.

Absolutely true. For me MotD and MoM are afterthoughts (especially since I run mainly Shroud, VoD, VoN non-epic, Hound, and soon ToD on my bard). It's Enthrall that makes me want to take Virtuoso rather than those two abilities. Also, I think Extra Song IV is way too expensive to take just to get MotD or MoM on a Warchanter. Just my personal preference as I try to get near to the max in all the healing lines (crits included) and as many hp's as I can afford (which costs a ton of AP's on a WF'd...16 total just in con and toughness). If you're playing a race or style that makes the AP's less important to you though I could definitely see it.