Monk "Are you light or dark?" [Archive] - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

Quikster

09-15-2010, 08:46 PM

Wow i didnt know you were supposed to feel bad for choosing the darkside. Is this some kinda ToD backlash or something? Thats the only place I see people begging for light monks.

The ToD lfms asking for light monks make me laugh. I compare them to the WW LFM that NEEDS A HEALER, or the Gwylands Stand lfm that needs a rogue. How bout the wiz king lfm that needs a caster? Or the 18-20 shroud lfm that is looking for 1 bard, 2 healers, 1 caster, and 8 heavy hitters. Yeah, bunch-o-noobs :) if you ask me

But hey, thats why theres an lfm panel, so the newbs can all stick together, excluding that extra caster from the shroud but begging for one to kite, or excluding the monk from dq cuz they "need ranged dps" but begging for a monk for ToD. How about the group that "already has a bard" for HoX but is begging for one for von 6?

Bottom line is those n00balots want what they think they need to get through a raid, and could care less what anyone else wants to play, I say let em rot while you are knocking off 1500 pt ToD's :)

Pro tip, Shroud, VoD, HoX, and ToD were all completed with alts no higher than 17 at one point, many with alts as low as 12 in the run. The lfms with 18-20 only for The Reavers Fate, yeah ill solo it thank you very much.

Ssmooth

09-15-2010, 08:51 PM

2500 ** ahem ;)

You must show me your secret, Sansai. I have yet to see more that 4 in a chain :D

Junts

09-15-2010, 09:09 PM

When you're asked that question, do you have an apologetic tone when you reply "I am a dark monk"?

a light monk isnt needed for tod, but it remains informative to a leader in creating raid strategy whether or not you are one; the leader may prefer to do an intimitank strategy with a light monk, but prefer a threat tank strategy without one, for a wide variety of reasons. It could also simply determine who they'd prefer to threat tank with: they may have a high dps but medium-hp character (like say, a kotc paladin) who they'd use as a tank if there's grasp present, but prefer the margin for error of barbarian hitpoints if the healer is going to be stunned at some point.

There's no reason to find this question offensive on its face.

ColinQ

09-15-2010, 09:24 PM

Is this some kinda ToD backlash or something? Thats the only place I see people begging for light monks.
I’ll beg a light monk for +2 haggle when selling because I’m too cheap to open a second account

Pro tip, Shroud, VoD, HoX, and ToD were all completed with alts no higher than 17 at one point, many with alts as low as 12 in the run.
Since boot have min lv of 18, would be interested in the strategy (and contingencies) for under 18 TOD

xxScoobyDooxx

09-15-2010, 09:35 PM

I started light, changed to dark at level 8, at level 20 I tried light again and then changed back to dark where I will remain. Healing for 80-100 hp every 5-10 seconds and doing sub par damage while doing so did not stop one from dying in Amarath. Stunning and smacking things for 1000-1500 dmg did.

Dan_Innella

09-15-2010, 09:40 PM

I tried to be a light monk...I really did. I tried Shintao, I was pre-Pre light monk......

There's just no polite way to say it..."WHY WOULD ANYONE BE A LIGHT MONK???"

Unless you enjoy gimpness...you should be a dark monk. There is zero justification to NOT wanna do 1500 damage in 1 hit. Really.

I actually prefer Light Monk, and I do not feel as if I'm being gimped. I have yet to figure out exactly how to do what and all that nonsense on a monk, so being able to hit four buttons every minute and be loved by everyone makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside.

Quikster

09-15-2010, 09:47 PM

I’ll beg a light monk for +2 haggle when selling because I’m too cheap to open a second account

Since boot have min lv of 18, would be interested in the strategy (and contingencies) for under 18 TOD

We ran without boots fool 8)

When the raid came out, many raid groups only had a few people with boots, sometimes only 1, and sometimes none. The banish aura was much smaller than it is now (slightly larger than an aoe buff iirc) Many strats included having a tank, everyone ranging in some form or another, and immediately after a banish the group would rush in and dps for about a min, then pull out and range again.

Other groups just went in and wailed away till they got banished :)

DarkFlash

09-16-2010, 03:01 AM

I tried to be a light monk...I really did. I tried Shintao, I was pre-Pre light monk......

There's just no polite way to say it..."WHY WOULD ANYONE BE A LIGHT MONK???"

Unless you enjoy gimpness...you should be a dark monk. There is zero justification to NOT wanna do 1500 damage in 1 hit. Really.

Uhh... Light monk with 200-300% healing amp can solo almost anything without pots/etc. (Dreaming dark on hard is a piece of cake... or pizza)
If your DPS sucks, GET BETTER HANDWRAPS for heavens sake.
In ToD I can steal aggro from barb tanker with my gimped 28point human monk, as long as I am using my +3 holy GEOB wraps.
Same goes for VoD, and didn't even use power attack.

dunklezhan

09-16-2010, 03:32 AM

light, dark. meh. I could care less. I'm light, I ask to make sure I'm not spamming the same mini-buffs as any other monks that might be in the party. I haven't enough experience with either to have a view on whether anyone should be feeling ashamed of themselves.

Although, this one light monk I ran with, I suggested spamming fists of light because we were running without a healer and in a dungeon full of undead told me to back off, he knew how to run his toon - got really offended (which surprised me, he had been asking for advice and sounding worried about not having a healer).

Guess who didn't die all quest? Guess who died every two minutes? Noting at the time I was on my underlevel, poorly equipped wizard, in Xorian Cipher?

Yeah. He should've been ashamed of himself. But I don't think it was his light monk-ness that was the problem there.

Crinos

09-16-2010, 03:32 AM

Hmmmm....

TOD
25% concealment
TOD
3d6 sneak damage
Oh, and TOD

Why would I want to be a light monk!

Nothing to apologize for there.

Go dark and be proud. :)

maestro973

09-16-2010, 08:43 AM

Dark monks will always do more dps than light, that is just the way it should be.

Though, to be fair, with the upcoming changes that gap is potentially made more narrow in certain circumstances.

Don't get me wrong, I love TOD and shadow fade while leveling up and probably wouldn't grind out a life using light again, but once I get back up to cap I'll be sure to switch over to the light. I just find the abilities to be more suited with my playstyle and the epics I tend to run. To each their own, but I certainly wouldn't count out light monks in mod7.

dranreb

09-16-2010, 08:47 AM

Let's end Monkism:

Light...Dark...can't we all just get along?

rimble

09-16-2010, 09:44 AM

When you're asked that question, do you have an apologetic tone when you reply "I am a dark monk"?

My response is, seriously, more like:

"*laugh* Light is for sucks!"

And then I have to watch what I say when they find a Light Monk (usually we're talking ToD here) so I don't offend them on accident. What surprises me is that they ALWAYS find a Light Monk, and fairly quickly too.

Maybe at least with some Shintao improvements I will now just say:

"Nope."

Darkrok

09-16-2010, 10:56 AM

I enjoy light because I'm often running with small groups without healers. It lets me keep the group up on relaxing normal runs without resource usage. I really enjoy the synergy on a human light monk of healing amp and fists of light. Those things said, I'm only going to stay light until I get to a good point - get two ToD rings done, get most of the way to unsuppressing a quor'forged docent, maybe finish a 40th shroud (maybe not...depends on how long I want to play around with the Shintao stuff) and then I'm switching over to the Metaru build. Being able to legitimately hate/hp tank stuff, especially since it'll be a warforged which opens up some more options to tanking, would be a welcome change from being just the support/dps guy.

Desteria

09-16-2010, 11:39 AM

back in the day, when monks first came out, i was light, i was a tempest monk, with dule min2 kamas built to add AC adn litterly nothign could hurt me, elite VoD he needed a 20 i coudl tank the whole fight and not lose more then 30 points of fmy stone skin, FoL healign curse was amazig for soloing in devil battel field/the quests it healeed you mroe then any thign could hurt you. the grouls buffs SP savings and graps were usefull in places grasp mroe later on. thyen they added glacing blows, jacked boss to hit through the roof adn the trade offs made fro the exttream AC were only really usefull for soloing now, insted of beign a GREAT mt in raids, i was sub par dps, that took a littel less damage. then Dark started getitng buffed up. finaly they added the pre's One was absolutly AMAZING, free invis with 25% incorp, 3d6 sneak, minimal prerecs... the other had a totaly uselss banish because at 20 you run stuff with epic ward or on elite with jacked saves, a smite that was on a very long cool down, and some usless DR bypassing, since the one that would have bene really nice was missing in action with out tier 3, also the pre rec were VERY high in AP cost... in my past liek i was light, i died and was still light now i am DARK and don't see my self ever going back even though i always liked the utility of light it just needs help to over come the draw of the darkside.

Desteria

09-16-2010, 11:40 AM

another way to look at it is how mainy monk levels do you have 3-8 go light the buffs are great 9+ go dark.

KoboldKiller

09-16-2010, 11:45 AM

I'm dark. I think it has better flavor and doesn't dry out.

Oh sorry thought we were discussing poultry.

dpadan17

09-16-2010, 11:50 AM

having 2 monks myself. i had one that was a light monk and another that was dark. I couldn't justify the benefits of being light over dark. I contemplated this for about 2 months......well, to make a long story short, i now am the proud owner of 2 dark monks. ToD for 5---2500? you bet, im in. Stun......beat......and ToD to finish it off for the biggies. That is a winning combo for me.

I know it would be easier to get into the Tower raid if I had a light monk, but i have found good success already getting into it, so Dark is the new Mark for me.

on the other hand....if the new update gives the light monks DR for the new set of the shintao......hmmmmm i might still go back for one. could be a toss up

Ssmooth

09-16-2010, 12:24 PM

Uhh... Light monk with 200-300% healing amp can solo almost anything without pots/etc. (Dreaming dark on hard is a piece of cake... or pizza)
If your DPS sucks, GET BETTER HANDWRAPS for heavens sake.
In ToD I can steal aggro from barb tanker with my gimped 28point human monk, as long as I am using my +3 holy GEOB wraps.
Same goes for VoD, and didn't even use power attack.

My dark monk convert has 67 base ac. I rarely get hit except on elite/epic content with no bard.

There does not exist a pair of handwraps that a light monk can use that will hold aggro from a dark monk.

If your light monk is stealing aggro from a barb, you should be wondering about that barbs gear/build. I guarantee that your dark monk would have to really try to pull aggro from my barb.

I tanked VoD on my light monk, it was very easy. On my dark, it would be waaay easier and faster. Spamming 500-2500/20 seconds would keep aggro with ease.

Jamma

09-16-2010, 12:45 PM

DethTrip

09-16-2010, 02:27 PM

SINIBYTE

09-16-2010, 02:53 PM

In all my years of MMO's I have never seen such a singular group of people so insistently and constantly begging to be whacked across the head with the nerf stick.

Was this seriously a real question posted? There's only one quest/raid in the game where anyone cares what path a monk is. Take your absurd 'Im a walking bug' 2500 ToD's in peace, and leave light path monks the sop of being partially useful in one stinkin quest out of 300.

Yes, it was a serious question. The only time I ever get asked is when I join a TOD (if I'm even 'allowed'...), more often than not I get "We already have a monk". When I do get in, there's never a "hello" or anything, just "Are you light or dark?", I know why they're asking, and I await the boot once I say "dark". With 20% threat reduction, I've still managed to pull aggro on Horoth, yet still they want a barb for DPS over me... Half the time the LFM shows all DPS classes EXCEPT monk, because there's one in the party already... You can hear the tone afterwards when you say dark as if you are a useless liability to a party.

There's a reason 5 or more monks queue up for a TOD raid, its the single source of GS equivalent weaponry in the game for us. The fact that we have to apologize for our build because people can't deal with a stun is ridiculous. I've solo reconstructed 2 tanks in TOD on my Sorc with no light monk - no issues what-so-ever dealing with the stun, but still this plagues me when I click on the LFM on my monk.

"Are you light or dark?", the words are like fingernails on a chaulkboard to me.

Doganpc

09-16-2010, 03:01 PM

Light monk = moderate to low dps, good solo ability.
Dark monk = awesome dps, moderate to low solo ability.

If you like to kill things on your own, go light.
If you like to make a big impact in party/raid groups, go dark.
Simple.This pretty much sums it up. Since the forums are all about maximizing your raid potential of course the Dark Monks are going to be the majority. I do find the Light monk quite nice for multiclass builds that can use it (Phoenix being a great example). My Dark path monk was quite difficult to solo as it tended to get in over its head, but man does that light path whirling steel monstrosity solo on the cheap.

Dogan
Can't justify shintao yet.

KoboldKiller

09-16-2010, 03:03 PM

Light monk = moderate to low dps, good solo ability.
Dark monk = awesome dps, moderate to low solo ability.

If you like to kill things on your own, go light.
If you like to make a big impact in party/raid groups, go dark.
Simple.

Umm, have you played a Dark Monk?

I solo on mine on a regular basis and rarely use pots so not sure where you get Dark Monks have moderate to low solo ability.

SINIBYTE

09-16-2010, 03:06 PM

Umm, have you played a Dark Monk?

I solo on mine on a regular basis and rarely use pots so not sure where you get Dark Monks have moderate to low solo ability.

Agreed. I farmed the Sub for hours without coming up for air. I also crafted my TOD ring with mobs hitting me. ;)

KoboldKiller

09-16-2010, 03:26 PM

Actually as a final note on the subject I have played almost every class and by far my Dark Monk has been the easiest to solo with in regards to consumables and ease (Sorc was rockin but obviously sp dependent).

DethTrip

09-16-2010, 03:56 PM

Umm, have you played a Dark Monk?

I solo on mine on a regular basis and rarely use pots so not sure where you get Dark Monks have moderate to low solo ability.

If you took your time, used a lot of pots and wholeness when needed, then you could solo a bit I'm sure but typically a non healing build is not real solo friendly.

rimble

09-16-2010, 03:58 PM

Agreed. I farmed the Sub for hours without coming up for air. I also crafted my TOD ring with mobs hitting me. ;)

Thirded?! What a baseless summarization to make...and actually, that's the problem here. Dark = strong solo, strong group; Light = moderate solo, moderate group (except ToD, where I s'pose that bumps to 'strong group')

If you took your time, used a lot of pots and wholeness when needed, then you could solo a bit I'm sure but typically a non healing build is not real solo friendly.

You have no idea what you're talking about. We ARE soloing! Right now. And you're standing there going "well, I s'pose it might work...barely..." Hello!? McFly!? Here I am! Doing it! Easily!

aldan

09-16-2010, 04:01 PM

Dark baby

jcTharin

09-16-2010, 04:06 PM

We ran without boots fool 8)

When the raid came out, many raid groups only had a few people with boots, sometimes only 1, and sometimes none. The banish aura was much smaller than it is now (slightly larger than an aoe buff iirc) Many strats included having a tank, everyone ranging in some form or another, and immediately after a banish the group would rush in and dps for about a min, then pull out and range again.

Other groups just went in and wailed away till they got banished :)

that sounds like fun

i wish that i was here during the "old days"

Robi3.0

09-16-2010, 04:42 PM

My current monk/fighter is light path, and I am not apologetic about it either, cuase if anyone tries to judge me based on the choices I make I give them this ,,|,, then move along cause they ain't worth my time.

I am TRing my rogue into a dark monk cause she was always supposed to be a ninja, it was unfortunate that the Ninja Spy PrE didn't exist when I rolled her up.

rimble

09-16-2010, 05:00 PM

My current monk/fighter is light path, and I am not apologetic about it either, cuase if anyone tries to judge me based on the choices I make I give them this ,,|,, then move along cause they ain't worth my time.

I'm immune to your Middle Finger of Light attack. I'm the Boss. Boss Immunities!

Zachski

09-16-2010, 05:11 PM

I will walk the darkside (:<

whomhead

09-16-2010, 05:24 PM

I tend to be rather light. But I can darken up pretty well if I sit out in the sun. Gotta use sunblock though, or I'll burn.

My monk is dark path, all the way.

Aschbart

09-16-2010, 06:11 PM

My highest character is a level 14 light monk, and I like it. I do explore all the quests for the first time, so I don't know what will be hitting me when I turn around the next corner. I am sure, If I knew all the quests, I could easily anticipate the difficult parts of quests and prepare for it accordingly, and thus have no problem soloing it with a dark monk, or with a dwarven bard for all I care. But doing quests the very first time, and dealing with whatever gets thrown at me, that is something I believe the light monk is extraordinarily well suited for.

I do see all the adverts for the dark path, and I'm sure I will try it. But at the very least I will wait what Shintao gets me on Update 7. At the moment I do have Shintao II, and I like that I can bypass all material DR except for Admantine and Silver. After 19 runs with no luck I've given up on devouts, and - needless to say - of course I do not have any other metalline of PG wraps, and I won't be having any for quite some time to come, judging by the prices on the AH, and the apparently ridiculously low drop rates for boss beater wraps. I realize that for a 500 damage strike I don't need to bother about DR - but for the time in between these strikes I still would!

So for now, it simply doesn't make sense for me to switch: for soloing new content with an underequiped toon, light is better, and if ever I get to raiding, I will need the Shintao DR beating benefits to be able to do any meaningful damage. And I am totally aware that when I see meaningful, it will probably still be pitiful. But if I switched to dark without access to a boss beater, it would probably be even worse.

Crinos

09-16-2010, 07:06 PM

Yes, it was a serious question. The only time I ever get asked is when I join a TOD (if I'm even 'allowed'...), more often than not I get "We already have a monk". When I do get in, there's never a "hello" or anything, just "Are you light or dark?", I know why they're asking, and I await the boot once I say "dark". With 20% threat reduction, I've still managed to pull aggro on Horoth, yet still they want a barb for DPS over me... Half the time the LFM shows all DPS classes EXCEPT monk, because there's one in the party already... You can hear the tone afterwards when you say dark as if you are a useless liability to a party.

There's a reason 5 or more monks queue up for a TOD raid, its the single source of GS equivalent weaponry in the game for us. The fact that we have to apologize for our build because people can't deal with a stun is ridiculous. I've solo reconstructed 2 tanks in TOD on my Sorc with no light monk - no issues what-so-ever dealing with the stun, but still this plagues me when I click on the LFM on my monk.

"Are you light or dark?", the words are like fingernails on a chaulkboard to me.

Interesting. I get the opposite of that.
A TOD LFM goes up and I click for an invite. Usually I get a tell asking if I'm light or dark.
I tell them dark and the invite goes through, usually accompanied by a 'great, we needed some DPS'.

I'm sitting on my 20th TOD on my monk at the moment and I don't think I've run a single one with a light monk in the party.

Maybe it's server dependant.

Cripey2

09-17-2010, 10:41 AM

Talltale-Storyteller

09-17-2010, 12:23 PM

Who is it that decided that Dark Path monks have low soloing capability? Did it come out in a memo I missed?

Somebody please forward that to my Permadeath dark Path month that I have been soloing on since I respecced, he needs to find out he has low soloing capability before he gets himself killed!

sweez

09-17-2010, 12:28 PM

You have an apologetic tone when telling people that you have the higher DPS option in the current game environment? Really?

From the tone most people on these forums have, I'd think that DDO stands for Dungeons & DPS Online, not Dungeons and Dragons Online.

dpadan17

09-17-2010, 12:46 PM

Any TOD run that advertises for a light monk usually is an indicator of lack of experienced players.

There is absolutely no need for a light monk to run that raid on any difficulty with decent players.

no that is not it at all. i disagree. just because there is an advertisement up for a light monk does not mean "inexperienced" players. Having a light monk makes it easier. I throw pug groups together and a light monk helps for the stun factor. Have i ran without a light monk? yes....has it ran well? Yes. It just makes things go easier. Helps with running hard as well.

Mobeius

09-17-2010, 01:06 PM

msfjoseph

09-17-2010, 01:23 PM

Yeah was also wondering from what server is the OP. He seems to always have this light/dark issue with him (based on another thread)

Because in Sarlona with my dark monk I've never been rejected from a TOD raid (except this one time, when the leader was Chinese racist, but that's another story).

However I also believe that you still always have to ask if a monk is light or dark before you accept him/her in the raid. But for a different reason. It's the light monks you have to limit, cause their buffs can get redundant. It would be like getting two bards, and no one does that. On the other hand, 5 dark monks doing 5 Touches of Death in a row will never get old.

Ssmooth

09-17-2010, 03:13 PM

Dark good for sheer DPS, Light good for DPS and helping out the healers save SP's on the party and light monks survivablity is better than dark.

My dark monk is no less survivable than when he was light. The only thing that changed from light to dark was the buffs available(like no healing curse) and the ability to 'actually' be able to dps.

Survivability has much more to do with build and playstyle than light/dark 'ness'.

Soleran

09-17-2010, 03:24 PM

Well i am going to jump in on this, and probably get hammered by dark monks. However, my monk is light side monk and I find completely strange that my light monk is "gimp" or "the suck" when I can tank Horoth, Sulu, Arty, Jailor, Judge, etc and I often lead kill counts and have no deaths in the quests/raids. Even with dark monks in the group.

If you see a light monk suck, they are not playing it right. Sure I dont get to be lazy and rely on the tod for my DPS, but I sure as heack spam my void 4, lightening, Earth and Void 3 strikes as well. Most dark monks do not take stun (some do) but a lot of light monks can and do. Now if every mob you fought was an uncursable purple named mob dark would be it hands down.

Both are good and almost completely seperate designs.

Dark good for sheer DPS, Light good for DPS and helping out the healers save SP's on the party and light monks survivablity is better than dark.

Being a light monk has nothing to do with tanking or kiting, light monks are significantly lower dps then dark monks thats just how it is.

On survivability light monks might be slightly more survivable (slight) because concealement and ToD makes fights shorter anyway and if the mob can be stunned or para then its a dead issue the dark monk kills faster.

I was light monk to 20 and for months i was light until the ninja pre came out and I switched, light doesnt hold a candle to dark imo at 20, up to about 14 light can be nice after that the tedium of 1 minute buffs and your much lower dps starts to show.

oweieie

09-17-2010, 03:53 PM

Dark good for sheer DPS, Light good for DPS and helping out the healers save SP's on the party and light monks survivablity is better than dark.

Being incorporeal and being missed helps your healers out even more as does killing the mobs faster. Dark monks don't trade off survivability unless you're playing them wrong. Light monks are currently inferior in every way to dark monks, there is no reason to play light. We'll see what U7 does to shintao to see if anything changes, but until then, it's not even a choice.

Odin's_Hugin

09-17-2010, 04:36 PM

Being incorporeal and being missed helps your healers out even more as does killing the mobs faster. Dark monks don't trade off survivability unless you're playing them wrong. Light monks are currently inferior in every way to dark monks, there is no reason to play light. We'll see what U7 does to shintao to see if anything changes, but until then, it's not even a choice.

There are some threads going about the changes that will come to Shintao. Lemme post one, with several Dev posts:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=273404&highlight=shintao+monk

Now, as for survival, I do play a Dark Monk with very high AC (66-67) + Incorporeal + Blur. Still, on epic this AC is a joke. If you dont stun the epic mob right away, your chances of dying if you are dark are pretty high. ToD doesnt auto-kill them.

Epic quests basically "kill" the two things that allowed my high survival so far - high ac + ToD. I am a dex/wis build (along with some dark monks, while some go for STR).

If you are a STR-based dark monk, with poorish AC in comparison, then it's not even a question if you have better or worse survivality than a Light. Sure you dont. Of course, Wholeness + pots is available for any path, and that does helps when you compare Monk survival skills with other classes.

Light monks, on the other hand, have the Healing Curse + Fists of Light. With their normally high Recovery, and since most bosses (with exception of Horned and Pit devils) can be "cursed", than a Light monk with High AC would survive way longer than a Dark Monk with High AC + Incorporeal. That's because ToD doesnt make the tide flow so much into the Dark Monk's favor here - you cant (normally) one-shot the boss. The time you need to kill him alone, even with ToD, is normally longer than the time it takes for the Boss to kill you.

However, I believe that for Hard/Elite Shavarath and Epics, solo ability would go like this:

Dex/Wis Light monks > Dex/Wis Dark Monks > Str-based monks > most of other classes.

Again: I've always played with a Dark Monk, so I know their survival skills are great. The only case when it doesnt is, on my point of view, high-lv quests on hard/elite or Epic, where a dark monk's AC will not matter, but a Healing Shield will.

Soleran

09-17-2010, 05:33 PM

Mobeius

09-17-2010, 05:57 PM

How does healing curse even matter when you get hit 70 a pop on epic, its really of no consequence. Unless you soley focus on healing amps to get what 1-3 or 2-4 a pop and heal yourself for what 60-100 hp every what 15 seconds light curse is empty on epic for utility.

The only way I would even see light as effective is stun and then you can slowly beat the mob to death and since you have no sa from ninja or tod have fun with epic hp's.

That's just my opinion obviously, maybe someone elses mileage varies but unless you focus on devotion and healing amps on epic fol is not worth it. It's been my experience that the harder the quest the more a dark monk shines since its damage is greater then a light monks healing which lets face it on elite/epic isn't going to keep anyone alive.

Which completely explains to me you have no idea how to play a light monk correctly. I knew coming in this "Dark monks rule" thread I would be the the underdog. 10% concealment from ninja is the basis of your survival, okay I have my 20% blur cloak. Its a wash... Healing curse is great, especially if you have healing amp. if a light monk has void 4, I would like to see TOD compete with insta kills of that mechanic. Thats what, a 10,000 point death strike?

IMHO Dark Monks = Easy button that takes little skill or gear to play. Light monks are more challenging to maintain and with the right gear can accomplish a great many things. If everyone could tank then I wouldnt have mentioned it, I have yeat to see a dark monk tank Horoth successfully yet. For those that say light monks DPS is significantly less than dark. How do you explain for the most part (some exceptions due apply but very few) I can hold and maintain agro. The biggest one that actually steals agro is a strong archer ranger which is annoying but still I can regain agro, the other is super barbs, no dark monk has stole agro on me as of yet. Oh healing agro sometimes goes to the healer as well.

Yes, you can crunch numbers all you want but someone is missing something when they do because while my monk might not be the rule and an exception.

I am not some noob that started playing yesterday either, I been playing since Beta 1 and like I explained people that loved seeing big numbers when they hit a mob. Just because you see big flashy numbers doesnt mean you rule.

I am not even sure Shintao is worth me giving up Void 4 and void 3, which void 4 is the most powerful and prolific insta kill in the game. Coupled with other elemental strikes you can pull off some significant damage. Dark monks are always using their Ki primarily for tod and the triple procs, which let me explain, light monks also get triple procs as well. Ever seen 3 EPIC mobs erased with one Void 4 strike?

Dark and Light are on even ground with different flavors, IMO. Yes, yes, darks will hold true that light is "the suck" to help themselves feel good. However, I dont see a thread about trying to help light monks pat themselves on the back and how great they are over the dark monks. Most dark monks just fail to see the big end game picture as far as I can tell.

CrimsonEagle

09-17-2010, 06:11 PM

How does healing curse even matter when you get hit 70 a pop on epic, its really of no consequence. Unless you soley focus on healing amps to get what 1-3 or 2-4 a pop and heal yourself for what 60-100 hp every what 15 seconds light curse is empty on epic for utility.

The only way I would even see light as effective is stun and then you can slowly beat the mob to death and since you have no sa from ninja or tod have fun with epic hp's.

That's just my opinion obviously, maybe someone elses mileage varies but unless you focus on devotion and healing amps on epic fol is not worth it. It's been my experience that the harder the quest the more a dark monk shines since its damage is greater then a light monks healing which lets face it on elite/epic isn't going to keep anyone alive.

Which is part of the reason that I am underwhelmed with the coming updates for the light monk. End game is about dps and buffing. Sure it would be nice to have the 10% more damage from the light monk, but I really believe that it is going to boil down to bringing a bard who can not only buff to hit and damage with songs that last longer, they also have much better buffs and cc where applicable, or a monk that brings less to the table overall.

If they extended the monk buffs on a per level basis, AND increased the amount healed on a per level basis, AND implemented the 10% damage....well then we would be getting somewhere. As it stands now, even though I do have a light, Dark seems to be the way to go.

This of course is dependent on weather the dark monks tod is working as intended. Seems to me that it is (lets just say a touch) overpowered to the point of being unbalancing.

Light monks are fun. Dont get me wrong. Monks are fun in general. Most fun class IMO.

The real question for me is why stay light.

There are many times that I lead in the kill count in quests, but we all know that killing trash mob's is not the goal. The goal is always, always that last fight and the trash in between are already considered to be inconsequential.

Ineffective buffs (other than 10% damage that may get you into a party if there is not already a bard in the party), 0r 1000+ damage in a single shot being spammed as often as possible?

Seems to be a no brainer to me.

Oh well. Have to go. perhaps more later.

khaldan

09-17-2010, 06:17 PM

How does healing curse even matter when you get hit 70 a pop on epic, its really of no consequence. Unless you soley focus on healing amps to get what 1-3 or 2-4 a pop and heal yourself for what 60-100 hp every what 15 seconds light curse is empty on epic for utility.

Focusing on healing amp, you can get 4-8 and near 300 hp healing ki every 9 seconds. No paladin TRs or ship buffs.

Zachski

09-17-2010, 07:16 PM

Both dark and light monks appeal to me. Dark monks appeal to me more because they're sorta like breaking the monk stereotype. Not to mention, yes, the big pretty numbers. At the same time, the self-healing and the buffing capabilities of the light monk seem useful. I don't know how much less DPS they have, though.

As far as Light Monks stealing aggro from Dark Monks goes... one could just easily say that those dark monks are poorly built. I don't know myself, but that's the counter-argument I predict will be incoming.

Out of curiosity, do any ninja spies use the blinding finisher so that they can get sneak attacks in?

SINIBYTE

09-17-2010, 07:42 PM

Which completely explains to me you have no idea how to play a light monk correctly. I knew coming in this "Dark monks rule" thread I would be the the underdog. 10% concealment from ninja is the basis of your survival, okay I have my 20% blur cloak. Its a wash...

I stopped reading there because you have no idea what you're talking about. And I can tell from your demeanor you have no interest in listening to why, so I won't bother.

EDIT*

Since I'm waiting on my group to zone in, I'll elaborate.

Monk "concealment", as you call it, is not "concealment", it's incorporeality. And it's not 10%, it's 25%. And it stacks with that same 20% blur cloak you mention. So no, it's not a wash. Not even close. If the foundation of your argument is THAT flawed, you really can't trust the content of the remainder.

Taimasan

09-17-2010, 08:42 PM

I have yeat to see a dark monk tank Horoth successfully yet.

I have tanked Horoth several times. And I have Void IV =)

Soleran

09-17-2010, 09:46 PM

Focusing on healing amp, you can get 4-8 and near 300 hp healing ki every 9 seconds. No paladin TRs or ship buffs.

Show me your monk then because I have a solar pheonix build and the entire build is around healing and not dps, as a matter of fact its dps is 3rd rate.

There is nothing wrong with light monks I spent 95% of my time as a light monk however dark monks are better for dps and epic and your numbers are incorrect for concealment as explained above.

Dark monk lets say 1000 damage every 15 seconds (tod) and what conservatively 8 damage on sa per attack, light monks cannot make that up and match that with 25% concealment which stacks with blur displacement etc.

If you like light thats cool but really they are underdeveloped at this time compared to dark.

I wanted to add I respect your posts and position its just my position after being light for 95% of my game play.

khaldan

09-17-2010, 09:52 PM

That's the only post I have in this thread, and if you did have a solar phoenix you'd know that those numbers are correct. Yes, the dps isn't great, but that's what you lose for the healing amp.

redgod

09-17-2010, 10:11 PM

tod for the win??? i think so. im only lvl16 and im doin mad dps, every1 trys to say im squishy? i have 360hp and 40 unbuffed ac with my stunning wraps not alot hits me. when they do, tod for the win!!!

this is not impressive i am light path 547 hp 54 unbuffed ac and i do just fine i lead kill counts and after update 7 shintao will not suck so giving up tod well be hard but their is a flip side to the coin

i have a dark monk he is fun but i find people love the utility of my light monk and my overall survilability is a little better

i will give you 1 thing tod is massive fun

Odin's_Hugin

09-17-2010, 10:16 PM

Did anyone actually read my post besides the one who posted after me?

Light Monks = more survivability than Dark, shadow fade or not.

Dark Monks = more dps than light, although on epic a Void IV user will probably outshine it.

This is also DDO's point of view on the matter, and it wont change anytime soon. Deal with it.

p.s: Healing shield is awesomely useful when you solo tough bosses that have tons of HP. If you cant heal yourself, you go down, which is, in my oppinion, the dark path's monk greatest weakness. AC + shadow fade is useful, but AC + Healing shield is better.

Soleran

09-17-2010, 10:37 PM

That's the only post I have in this thread, and if you did have a solar phoenix you'd know that those numbers are correct. Yes, the dps isn't great, but that's what you lose for the healing amp.

because everything is in healing amp....ok yes it is bad dps its how it is

Mobeius

09-17-2010, 11:31 PM

I stopped reading there because you have no idea what you're talking about. And I can tell from your demeanor you have no interest in listening to why, so I won't bother.

EDIT*

Since I'm waiting on my group to zone in, I'll elaborate.

Monk "concealment", as you call it, is not "concealment", it's incorporeality. And it's not 10%, it's 25%. And it stacks with that same 20% blur cloak you mention. So no, it's not a wash. Not even close. If the foundation of your argument is THAT flawed, you really can't trust the content of the remainder.

Ok so its 25%... I didnt know the exact number and I was walking out the door to get my son for the weekend. I could also rip your statement apart by saying it DOESNT stack, its two different numbers and two differing checks, because of that your statement is null and void...

Doesnt mean the rest of my statment is not true..

Every elemental strike is a has a chance to triple proc (quintuple if using wind stance)... Every key I spam has the same chance.. so I do anyway from what 40 to 140ish per strike, elemental and force damage.. You can get TOD off every 15 seconds... You know how many differing strikes I can get off in 15 seconds? How many void strikes I can get to triple (or more) to proc?

Most dark monks go with TOD and not elemental strikes nor void stikes... The ones that go void 4 are the exception not the rule and more than likely do not have a PRE.

Mobeius

09-17-2010, 11:33 PM

I have tanked Horoth several times. And I have Void IV =)

You are the exception and not the rule my friend. Props to you for taking the challenge and not being an 800 HP barb to tank him :-P

Zachski

09-17-2010, 11:35 PM

And one could very well say that you are the exception to light monks and not the rule. Or they could say that all the dark monks you've met that can't keep aggro from you are the exception rather than the rule.

Perception is key.

EDIT: I'd like to add that dark monks with both would actually have a 60% (75% x 80%) chance to be hit when AC is bypassed BECAUSE of the two rolls, whereas the Light Monk would have a 80% chance. This is a significant advantage over Light Monk.

His statement is not null and void.

Mobeius

09-17-2010, 11:53 PM

LMAO, too funny... Someone neg repped me... what an a$$ hat... Some people take this game WAY to seriously and must not have any life. :D

Zachski

09-17-2010, 11:58 PM

LMAO, too funny... Someone neg repped me... what an a$$ hat... Some people take this game WAY to seriously and must not have any life. :D

While I agree that none of your posts were neg-rep worthy, that isn't to say that the person who did it may not have a life.

Mobeius

09-18-2010, 12:10 AM

*smile* Well if someone is that thin skinned, I would say it... Thank you though.. I never hand neg rep... For me to do so it would have to be something utterly apauling and dispicable and usually if its that bad the person would more than likely get suspended.

Thorzian

09-18-2010, 12:18 AM

Mobeius

09-18-2010, 12:31 AM

why not? void/elementals/ToD/ninja spy.. getting them all is not hard. all of your "i have this" arguments are pointless.. the dark monks have them too. the only thing a light monk brings is healing curse which, at what.. 2-4 a tik with huge healing amp.. which darks also can get.. doesnt compare to the incorporeal alone, nevermind the ToD.

you ask if we know how many differing strikes you can get off in 15 seconds.. yes we do, the same as us. we just get a nice big one in the mix that you dont.

OK, how can a dark monk have healing curse?

Dark monks MIGHT have elemental strikes, but they wont use them as often as their TOD do to Ki restrictions and more than likely they are not going to have teir 4 strikes other than lightening. Most dark monks go Ninja and can not fit Void strikes in their line (considering you have to be GM in 2 stances) and spend the points for void 4. Void 4 is a very expensive line to achieve. If dark monks have void 4 they are not ninja II pre...

SINIBYTE

09-18-2010, 12:32 AM

Ok so its 25%... I didnt know the exact number and I was walking out the door to get my son for the weekend. I could also rip your statement apart by saying it DOESNT stack, its two different numbers and two differing checks, because of that your statement is null and void...

Doesnt mean the rest of my statment is not true..

Every elemental strike is a has a chance to triple proc (quintuple if using wind stance)... Every key I spam has the same chance.. so I do anyway from what 40 to 140ish per strike, elemental and force damage.. You can get TOD off every 15 seconds... You know how many differing strikes I can get off in 15 seconds? How many void strikes I can get to triple (or more) to proc?

Most dark monks go with TOD and not elemental strikes nor void stikes... The ones that go void 4 are the exception not the rule and more than likely do not have a PRE.

Ah yeh, I remeber who you are now. The "I was dealing with my son" stuff brought it all back. I think you mistake being a father with some sort of righteous superiority. You're the same guy that insists despite all the evidence that human monks do better DPS than WF or Halflings... And even suggested that halflings are and I will quote you, "subpar dps". And now here you are again trying to convince everyone that light monks are also superior DPS in comparison to Dark path. I'm just going to take a guess that your only monk is a Human Light monk.

Let me be clear. Having a blur cloak is no substitute for corporealty. Anyone can make a blur cloak. I have one, and yes it does stack. Blur/Displace is concelament, Shadowform is incorporealty. And in regards to survivabilty, blur/displace + incorporality + AC is superior. Not taking damage is the key.

Let me further your knowledge on Dark monks, since you know nothing about them (yet continue to spread misinformation and nonsense). Dark Monks do not sit there and do nothing waiting to tap a key every 15 seconds. Most (if not all) Dark monks choose 2 GM stances. Either Fire/Earth or Wind/Earth. And all have a Ki cycle they work with. Most choose earth strikes due to the untyped damage added to their damage, while blasting out 500-2000 damage every 15 seconds on top of their normal damage. Untyped. That means no elemental resistances. And you arent going to "erase" a boss. So I reply to your nonsense with the same thing, "You know how many differing strikes I can get off in 15 seconds?". We don't go AFK tapping TOD every 15 seconds... know what you're talking befor eyou make nonsense accusations.

Listen man, I'm glad you like your human light monk, and I'm sorry your ego gets crushed every time someone says its gimp. But the fact of the matter is, your human light monk is inferior than a wf or halfling dark monk in regards survivabilty and more importantly DPS. Period. This is coming from someone that has played 2 monks, one light to end game, and switched to dark. You have clearly showed your lack of knowledge on the subject and your bias in regards to YOUR toon, ignoring everything else.

SINIBYTE

09-18-2010, 12:36 AM

OK, how can a dark monk have healing curse?

Dark monks MIGHT have elemental strikes, but they wont use them as often as their TOD do to Ki restrictions and more than likely they are not going to have teir 4 strikes other than lightening. Most dark monks go Ninja and can not fit Void strikes in their line (considering you have to be GM in 2 stances) and spend the points for void 4. Void 4 is a very expensive line to achieve. If dark monks have void 4 they are not ninja II pre...

Check almost EVERY build you find on the forums for a Dark monk. Almost every single build shows 2 GM stances. Stop with this "I have and you don't" nonsense. And stop spreading more information. Dark monks use Earth strikes for untyped damage, while using Fire/Wind stance for stances. I have no "Ki restrictions", and work in normal t4 earth strikes as part of my combat rotation (as most any dark monk does). And yes, some work in Void strikes to their build.

Mobeius

09-18-2010, 12:42 AM

Ah yeh, I remeber who you are now. The "I was dealing with my son" stuff brought it all back. I think you mistake being a father with some sort of righteous superiority. You're the same guy that insists despite all the evidence that human monks do better DPS than WF or Halflings... And even suggested that halflings are and I will quote you, "subpar dps". And now here you are again trying to convince everyone that light monks are also superior DPS in comparison to Dark path. I'm just going to take a guess that your only monk is a Human Light monk.

Let me be clear. Having a blur cloak is no substitute for corporealty. Anyone can make a blur cloak. I have one, and yes it does stack. Blur/Displace is concelament, Shadowform is incorporealty. And in regards to survivabilty, blur/displace + incorporality + AC is superior. Not taking damage is the key.

Let me further your knowledge on Dark monks, since you know nothing about them (yet continue to spread misinformation and nonsense). Dark Monks do not sit there and do nothing waiting to tap a key every 15 seconds. Most (if not all) Dark monks choose 2 GM stances. Either Fire/Earth or Wind/Earth. And all have a Ki cycle they work with. Most choose earth strikes due to the untyped damage added to their damage, while blasting out 500-2000 damage every 15 seconds on top of their normal damage. Untyped. That means no elemental resistances. And you arent going to "erase" a boss. So I reply to your nonsense with the same thing, "You know how many differing strikes I can get off in 15 seconds?". We don't go AFK tapping TOD every 15 seconds... know what you're talking befor eyou make nonsense accusations.

Listen man, I'm glad you like your human light monk, and I'm sorry your ego gets crushed every time someone says its gimp. But the fact of the matter is, your human light monk is inferior than a wf or halfling dark monk in regards survivabilty and more importantly DPS. Period. This is coming from someone that has played 2 monks, one light to end game, and switched to dark. You have clearly showed your lack of knowledge on the subject and your bias in regards to YOUR toon, ignoring everything else.

There you go mis quoting me again... I never said Humans are superior DPS monks.. I never said halflings do subpar DPS either. I said their DPS numbers are lower. due to their mods... My monk is a WF not a Human... How little you know. Yes I know you very well you are rude, arrogant, indignant, childish and probably the person that neg repped me considering your rep.

Yes Darkl monks wait most of the time for their Ki to do the TOD attack.. or are you somehow very special and always have 500 KI just sitting there like a sorc?

You made a blur cloak? you wasted material on it? You know you canget a free one out of the raids right?

Just like now, you take me out of context, I said Dark monks are Sheer DPS and do more than lights but you and a few others here make it sound like light monks are "the suck" which I am here to say they are not. If light monks suck, its because you suck and didnt know how to play it right for the challenge.

SINIBYTE

09-18-2010, 01:04 AM

There you go mis quoting me again... I never said Humans are superior DPS monks.. I never said halflings do subpar DPS either. I said their DPS numbers are lower. due to their mods... My monk is a WF not a Human... How little you know. Yes I know you very well you are rude, arrogant, indignant, childish and probably the person that neg repped me considering your rep.

Yes Darkl monks wait most of the time for their Ki to do the TOD attack.. or are you somehow very special and always have 500 KI just sitting there like a sorc?

You made a blur cloak? you wasted material on it? You know you canget a free one out of the raids right?

Just like now, you take me out of context, I said Dark monks are Sheer DPS and do more than lights but you and a few others here make it sound like light monks are "the suck" which I am here to say they are not. If light monks suck, its because you suck and didnt know how to play it right for the challenge.

Who's misquoting you, here's your post here:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=214991

I am here to explain my observations and what has worked for me and my Human Monk

My post here will be more biased towards Humans simply due to the fact a majority of my characters are Human.

Halflings (Makes great AC builds, lacking in DPS usually)

I dont have experience with the Ninja Spy

As for the 'blur cloak'... it's an HP cloak, and no you can't "get" a 45HP permablur cloak with displacement clickie and exc dex skills...for "free out of the raids".

And it has nothing to due with being rude or anything of the sort, you spread misinformation, you yourself are misinformed, and someone needs to set the record straight. Misinformation spreads like wildfire. The last thing we need is people thinking blur is a waste because they have "10% concealment from ninja spy". Yes, people like you, stating things like that, need to be corrected.

Mobeius

09-18-2010, 01:13 AM

Who's misquoting you, here's your post here:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=214991

As for the 'blur cloak'... it's an HP cloak, and no you can't "get" a 45HP permablur cloak with displacement clickie and exc dex skills...for "free out of the raids".

And it has nothing to due with being rude or anything of the sort, you spread misinformation, you yourself are misinformed, and someone needs to set the record straight. Misinformation spreads like wildfire. The last thing we need is people thinking blur is a waste because they have "10% concealment from ninja spy". Yes, people like you, stating things like that, need to be corrected.

Lacking is not saying subpar, and because most my toons are human doesnt make my monk human. My misinformation? You said the concealment stacks LMAO... So dont act like you are the DDO god of everything because you're not. You constantly attack anything that ggoes against your beleif. I mean attack. You are so immature its not even funny. Not all HP cloaks are blur cloaks and not all blur cloaks are HP cloaks or tiems of any type. Depends who makes it. I even said I was mistaken on the 10%

Zachski

09-18-2010, 01:20 AM

Lacking is not saying subpar, and because most my toons are human doesnt make my monk human. My misinformation? You said the concealment stacks LMAO... So dont act like you are the DDO god of everything because you're not. You constantly attack anything that ggoes against your beleif. I mean attack. You are so immature its not even funny. Not all HP cloaks are blur cloaks and not all blur cloaks are HP cloaks or tiems of any type. Depends who makes it. I even said I was mistaken on the 10%

Actually, the Concealment and incorporeal DO stack. Go read my post detailing the math on how them being two separate rolls is still an advantage.

Mobeius

09-18-2010, 01:25 AM

Actually, the Concealment and incorporeality DO stack. Go read my post detailing the math on how them being two separate rolls is an advantage.

Ok if they stacked it would be 45% giving you a 55% hit chance... What was it someone mentioned. 67%????

Zachski

09-18-2010, 01:39 AM

Ok if they stacked it would be 45% giving you a 55% hit chance... What was it someone mentioned. 67%????

...Okay, you don't even know what stacking means.

Stacking is when a +2 morale bonus to attack coexists and does not override a +2 luck bonus to attack.

A concealment miss chance coexists and does not override an incorporeal miss chance.

That is what stacking means. When they co-exist without overriding each other.

Furthermore, those monks who ToD every 15 seconds and do nothing else...

Let me put it this way. Those are the exception, not the rule.

Mobeius

09-18-2010, 01:43 AM

...Okay, you don't even know what stacking means.

Stacking is when a +2 morale bonus to attack coexists and does not override a +2 luck bonus to attack.

A concealment miss chance coexists and does not override an incorporeal miss chance.

That is what stacking means. When they co-exist without overriding each other.

Furthermore, those monks who ToD every 15 seconds and do nothing else...

Let me put it this way. Those are the exception, not the rule.

Ok well from PNP days stacking ALWAYS meant the added together for a combined total. Sue me.

Odin's_Hugin

09-18-2010, 01:47 AM

[....]

Listen man, I'm glad you like your human light monk, and I'm sorry your ego gets crushed every time someone says its gimp. But the fact of the matter is, your human light monk is inferior than a wf or halfling dark monk in regards survivabilty [NO, read my posts please] and more importantly DPS [YES, if you consider that more important]. Period. This is coming from someone that has played 2 monks, one light to end game, and switched to dark. You have clearly showed your lack of knowledge on the subject and your bias in regards to YOUR toon, ignoring everything else.

Edits on Red.

p.s.1. Also, Im curious - can you show me a dark monk build with Void Strikes + Ninja Spy II + ToD?

p.s.2. Incorporeal stacks with blur in a multiplicative way. So it's not 20% + 25% = 45%, but 20% x 1.25 = 25% total. There are many threads speaking about this.

Mobeius

09-18-2010, 01:50 AM

Edits on Red.

Also, Im curious - can you show me a dark monk build with Void Strikes + Ninja Spy II + ToD?

Me too... :rolleyes:

Taimasan

09-18-2010, 02:22 AM

p.s.1. Also, Im curious - can you show me a dark monk build with Void Strikes + Ninja Spy II + ToD?

My current build here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=274411

has void strikes + ninja spy II + tod

SINIBYTE

09-18-2010, 02:27 AM

My current build here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=274411

has void strikes + ninja spy II + tod

You can also do it with 2 GM stances, Crane IV and only requires a supreme +2 tome. (Little easier to build)

WF 15 15 16 8 14 6

PA, Dodge, Path of Inevitable Dominion

Enhancement: Monk Serenity
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane I
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane II
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane III
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane IV
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy II
Enhancement: Touch of Death
Enhancement: Fists of Iron
Enhancement: Porous Soul
Enhancement: All-Consuming Flame
Enhancement: Void Strike I
Enhancement: Void Strike II
Enhancement: Void Strike III
Enhancement: Void Strike IV
Enhancement: Winter's TTouch
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Master of Thunder
Enhancement: Adept of Rock
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Mountains
Enhancement: Master of Stone
Enhancement: Adept of Flame
Enhancement: Grandmaster of the Sun
Enhancement: Master of Bonfires
Enhancement: Adept of Rain
Enhancement: Master of the Sea
Enhancement: Monk Jump I
Enhancement: Monk Jump II
Enhancement: Monk Tumble I
Enhancement: Monk Tumble II
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack II

Me too... :rolleyes:
:rolleyes:

Odin's_Hugin

09-18-2010, 02:34 AM

You can also do it with 2 GM stances, Crane IV and only requires a supreme +2 tome. (Little easier to build)

WF 15 15 16 8 14 6

PA, Dodge, Path of Inevitable Dominion

Enhancement: Monk Serenity
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane I
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane II
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane III
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane IV
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy II
Enhancement: Touch of Death
Enhancement: Fists of Iron
Enhancement: Porous Soul
Enhancement: All-Consuming Flame
Enhancement: Void Strike I
Enhancement: Void Strike II
Enhancement: Void Strike III
Enhancement: Void Strike IV
Enhancement: Winter's TTouch
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Master of Thunder
Enhancement: Adept of Rock
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Mountains
Enhancement: Master of Stone
Enhancement: Adept of Flame
Enhancement: Grandmaster of the Sun
Enhancement: Master of Bonfires
Enhancement: Adept of Rain
Enhancement: Master of the Sea
Enhancement: Monk Jump I
Enhancement: Monk Jump II
Enhancement: Monk Tumble I
Enhancement: Monk Tumble II
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack II

:rolleyes:

I see no Racial Toughness, no stat bonuses, and no Monk Wisdom I, II or III.

But yes, I was doing on character build program. It's possible to do it. But you'll lose things that a Light Monk wont. Also you get almost no healing amp. You can hardly defend this build as having more "survival" than a light monk with healing shield, fists of light, higher DC on stun and curses, more HP, and way more healing amp.

edit: actually, that build is impossible. After you take Monk Tumble I, Monk Jump I, Warforged's Healer Friend I, Void Strike I, Static Charge and Way of Crane I, you cant choose any of your other enhancements that you posted. Try it on character creation program.

Progression = 8

Available AP = 72.

However, all of those things you posted require more progression than 8. So you'll have to spend AP on other things.

edit2: Yup, you dont have AP for all that. If I spend any other 2 ap to unlock the other stuff you mentioned in your post, then you dont have, at lv20, AP to get neither Monk Serenity, Void Strike IV or Fists of Iron.

Taimasan

09-18-2010, 02:46 AM

lol, http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=274411

Odin's_Hugin

09-18-2010, 02:54 AM

My current build here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=274411

has void strikes + ninja spy II + tod

Indeed. You sacrificed 1 toughness enhancement, 1 monk wisdom enhanc., 2 animal path enhanc., you needed 2 +4's tomes (str and wis) and you still have bad wisdom at lv20.

Sure, that's a very cool pure dps build. But little more than that.

My point, which is survivality of Light being superior to Dark, still stand strong. But nice build overall. I can do, with a +36-stat, a dark monk build with all Void IV, Ninja II and ToD, but in my oppinion, it's still lacking things that help, like higher AC, higher dc, higher recovery, a lil more life, and such.

edit: Things like ( feat: Quick Draw ) and (Enhancement: Ten Thousand Stars ) made me lol a bit, though.

SINIBYTE

09-18-2010, 02:57 AM

I see no Racial Toughness, no stat bonuses, and no Monk Wisdom I, II or III.

But yes, I was doing on character build program. It's possible to do it. But you'll lose things that a Light Monk wont. Also you get almost no healing amp. You can hardly defend this build as having more "survival" than a light monk with healing shield, fists of light, higher DC on stun and curses, more HP, and way more healing amp.

edit: actually, that build is impossible. After you take Monk Tumble I, Monk Jump I, Warforged's Healer Friend I, Void Strike I, Static Charge and Way of Crane I, you cant choose any of your other enhancements that you posted. Try it on character creation program.

Progression = 8

Available AP = 72.

However, all of those things you posted require more progression than 8. So you'll have to spend AP on other things.

edit2: Yup, you dont have AP for all that. If I spend any other 2 ap to unlock the other stuff you mentioned in your post, then you dont have, at lv20, AP to get neither Monk Serenity, Void Strike IV or Fists of Iron.

I just modded another build I had already in there(when I had up to Void II), it must've allowed me to swap without recalculating, but here, it's easy enough, even 2 AP leftover for whatever you want (WF CON was the dependant Enh that stopped the progression). So yeh here you go, more hotbar **** than you could possibly throw out in a single fight, but hey, properly geared, in fire stance with crane going... you shoud have enough Ki for it. ;)

So yeh, I'm bored, and whipped this up from scratch in about 5 minutes... would I build it? Not really, not exactly my play style, is it possible, could someone tweak it and make a substantial viable build out of it, absolutely. Might take awhile to work out a good strike rotation, but as was said earlier, since TOD is no longer the instakill, Void could take care of the instakill I suppose, while still allowing TOD for sustained damage in prolonged fights (treating instakill as a form of survivability). So yeh, not a completely thought-out build, I'm sure it can do with some tweaking, but the foundation is there... Anyway, this is just in response to those saying "As a light monk, I get Void strikes and you dont!" or whatever....

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Warforged Male
(20 Monk)
Hit Points: 334
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 15
Will: 15

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 15 22 22
Dexterity 15 17 17
Constitution 16 18 20
Intelligence 8 10 10
Wisdom 14 16 16
Charisma 6 8 8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Balance 2 3 3
Bluff -2 -1 -1
Concentration 3 5 15
Diplomacy -2 -1 3
Disable Device n/a n/a n/a
Haggle -2 -1 -1
Heal 2 3 3
Hide 2 3 3
Intimidate -2 -1 -1
Jump 2 6 8
Listen 2 3 3
Move Silently 2 3 3
Open Lock n/a n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair -1 0 0
Search -1 0 0
Spot 2 3 3
Swim 2 6 6
Tumble n/a n/a n/a
Use Magic Device 0 2.5 2.5

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Fist
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting

Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack

Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 4 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR

Level 5 (Monk)

Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness

Level 7 (Monk)

Level 8 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR

Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting

Level 10 (Monk)

Level 11 (Monk)

Level 12 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons

Level 13 (Monk)

Level 14 (Monk)

Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting

Level 16 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR

Level 17 (Monk)

Level 18 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow

Level 19 (Monk)

Level 20 (Monk)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Monk Serenity
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane I
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane II
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane III
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane IV
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy II
Enhancement: Touch of Death
Enhancement: Porous Soul
Enhancement: All-Consuming Flame
Enhancement: Void Strike I
Enhancement: Void Strike II
Enhancement: Void Strike III
Enhancement: Void Strike IV
Enhancement: Winter's Touch
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Master of Thunder
Enhancement: Adept of Rock
Enhancement: Master of Stone
Enhancement: Adept of Flame
Enhancement: Grandmaster of the Sun
Enhancement: Master of Bonfires
Enhancement: Adept of Rain
Enhancement: Master of the Sea
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Monk Jump I
Enhancement: Monk Jump II
Enhancement: Monk Tumble I
Enhancement: Monk Tumble II
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack I

B0ltdrag0n

09-18-2010, 03:12 AM

Edits on Red.

p.s.2. Incorporeal stacks with blur in a multiplicative way. So it's not 20% + 25% = 45%, but 20% x 1.25 = 25% total. There are many threads speaking about this.

From what I understand:

That math isn't right.

20% + 25%* (1-.20) = 40% miss chance.

Since each miss chance is calculated on a seperate roll then only 80% hits after the blur effect and then of that 25% or an additional 20 in 80 strikes will miss which should be a 40% additive miss rate.

Zachski

09-18-2010, 03:16 AM

That math isn't right.

20% + 25%* (1-.20) = 40% miss chance.

Exactly, the enemy has a 60% chance to hit, like my math earlier showed.

Odin's_Hugin

09-18-2010, 03:17 AM

I just modded another build I had already in there(when I had up to Void II), it must've allowed me to swap without recalculating, but here, it's easy enough, even 2 AP leftover for whatever you want (WF CON was the dependant Enh that stopped the progression). So yeh here you go, more hotbar **** than you could possibly throw out in a single fight, but hey, properly geared, in fire stance with crane going... you shoud have enough Ki for it. ;)

Enhancement: Monk Serenity
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane I
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane II
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane III
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane IV
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy II
Enhancement: Touch of Death
Enhancement: Porous Soul
Enhancement: All-Consuming Flame
Enhancement: Void Strike I
Enhancement: Void Strike II
Enhancement: Void Strike III
Enhancement: Void Strike IV
Enhancement: Winter's Touch
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Master of Thunder
Enhancement: Adept of Rock
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Mountains
Enhancement: Master of Stone
Enhancement: Adept of Flame
Enhancement: Grandmaster of the Sun
Enhancement: Master of Bonfires
Enhancement: Adept of Rain
Enhancement: Master of the Sea
Enhancement: Monk Jump I
Enhancement: Monk Jump II
Enhancement: Monk Tumble I
Enhancement: Monk Tumble II
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I

I checked. True, you could still get unbalancing strike and fists of Iron with leftover AP.

The point is the same, though - you do get good dps, but both buids showed are Fire-stanced (meaning poorer Solo ability since no haste-like attack) and have low AC and low healing amp. Also have lower reflex, lower DC on stuns (your build way more than the previous one) and low healing up on WoB.

It's a barbarian-like build. But with a ton less hp and healing amp. Problem is, like a barbarian, you dont have good AC, and things hit you a lot, and you dont have healing amp or stunning capabilities to stop them. Sure you have ToD, but when you're facing 4 barbazus on Sins or those 3 barbazus that spawn on subterrane portals while you're alone, ToD is freakingly useless. So is blur+shadow fade. You will certainly die, until proof otherwise.

Odin's_Hugin

09-18-2010, 03:28 AM

From what I understand:

That math isn't right.

20% + 25%* (1-.20) = 40% miss chance.

Since each miss chance is calculated on a seperate roll then only 80% hits after the blur effect and then of that 25% or an additional 20 in 80 strikes will miss which should be a 40% additive miss rate.

I thought I've seen threads that spoke that was a bit less %. But as I cant find them, I wont argue about it. Still, I have 66 standing ac (with only barskin pot), permanent blur + shadowfade and on shavarath Quests I get hit more than I should by a lot by ogres, barbazus and stuff. Most of that is blocked by my ac, not blur / displacement.

So if my AC goes low, like on some builds presented, I'd have no chance of doing things this well, and my survivability would skydrop.

SINIBYTE

09-18-2010, 03:31 AM

I checked. True, you could still get unbalancing strike and fists of Iron with leftover AP.

The point is the same, though - you do get good dps, but both buids showed are Fire-stanced (meaning poorer Solo ability since no haste-like attack) and have low AC and low healing amp. Also have lower reflex, lower DC on stuns (your build way more than the previous one) and low healing up on WoB.

It's a barbarian-like build. But with a ton less hp and healing amp. Problem is, like a barbarian, you dont have good AC, and things hit you a lot, and you dont have healing amp or stunning capabilities to stop them. Sure you have ToD, but when you're facing 4 barbazus on Sins or those 3 barbazus that spawn on subterrane portals while you're alone, ToD is freakingly useless. So is blur+shadow fade. You will certainly die, until proof otherwise.

That build, probably, I don't know, that's not what I roll with. I rock a 65-70 AC Wind Stance with permablur & incorporeal, good saves, good HP and +10 wraps. Very defensive, yet doesn't slack off on damage output.

Well, someone earlier stated:

Ever seen 3 EPIC mobs erased with one Void 4 strike?

So while the argument was that dark monks have less survivability because "TOD isn't an instkill" anymore, incorporating these amazing triple strike Void's should solve the problem then yeh? ;)

So seriously now... this argument is like a dog chasing it's tail. One argument is made, only to be countered, then the argument is replaced by something else, and when that is countered, the argument simply changes again. I think you, Odin came up with the only logical argument, which is true of all classes in that, the longer the fight, the larger the margin for failure, while TOD simply removes the fight from the question (much like Void's do, albeit less reliably), in extreme content, you suggest that the longer the fight the higher the survival rate of a light monk - of course thats one of those things where you'd have to measure (incoming damage vs incoming healing) VS (incoming damage VS damage avoidance). In which case, it depends on the dogs in the fight. ;)

I certaintly wouldn't give up 500-2000 damage strikes for the equivalent of a stack of serious pots. ;)

Odin's_Hugin

09-18-2010, 03:59 AM

That build, probably, I don't know, that's not what I roll with. I rock a 65-70 AC Wind Stance with permablur & incorporeal, good saves, good HP and +10 wraps. Very defensive, yet doesn't slack off on damage output.

This is what I currently run with. Im thinking on changing into light on Up. 7 though. Mostly to max out my survival skill and to get Void Strikes + healing amps without having to sacrifice my DC for epic stuff.

I think you, Odin came up with the only logical argument, which is true of all classes in that, the longer the fight, the larger the margin for failure, while TOD simply removes the fight from the question (much like Void's do, albeit less reliably), in extreme content, you suggest that the longer the fight the higher the survival rate of a light monk - of course thats one of those things where you'd have to measure (incoming damage vs incoming healing) VS (incoming damage VS damage avoidance). In which case, it depends on the dogs in the fight. ;)

Which is why I said earlier... survival line:

Monk dex/wis light > monk dex/wis dark > monks Str Light > Monk Str Dark

On the other hand, the dps line should be:

Monk Dark Str > Monk dex/wis Dark > monk Str Light > Monk Dex/wis light.

It's a trade-off. You cant be best on everything. I highly value survival skills to the extreme (Im often the savior of wiping parties, and it was why I rolled a monk). Im creating a Concordant Opposition item with superior and greater regen + Bracers of Demon's Consort and I want Fists of Light healing + Healing Curse to complete my maxed out survival skills and push it to the extremes.

Of course, while still having great Stun DC's, great AC, permanent blur (wretched twilight) and buffs like Moment of Clarity and the Flame buff which gives a little edge on epics, along with Void Strikes which can be auto-kill.

And when you say about "balancing incoming healing with incoming damage", I reply: "what incoming damage if they're stunned?". Of course, between stuns they'll hit a bit, but then they'll be stunned again and we can heal off what was damaged, without wasting any of the healer's SP while doing so.

[
]I certaintly wouldn't give up 500-2000 damage strikes for the equivalent of a stack of serious pots. ;)

I hate to dring heal pots while Im fighting, I like to solve things with my own capabilities. That's also why I use Wind IV - I dont wanna go using Haste pots all the time.

Different playstyles I guess. I'd be more than willing to give up my ToD for higher survival, Void strikes and no needing to worry about DR's for any mob in the game (plus the many other benefits coming for shintao on Update 7, such as stunning from range with awesome DC - yea, power word stun reminds you something?).

Scarecrow9

09-18-2010, 06:32 PM

first off ppl gotta save, all the immaturity and name calling in this post....just wow.
second:
each path has its strengths and weaknesses and each has a completely diff playstyle. each is gonna appeal to different ppl. it seems most of the ppl who post on these forums are ppl who have been playing forever and like to focus on dps for end game raids and forget the rest of the game. for ppl who love monks and still wanna do more damage...cool! play a dark monk! for ppl who just wanna build an uber leet raid boss killer....go make a fighter or barb. as to ppl who dont focus exclusively on end game, maybe dont play that often so they lvl slowly or enjoy the rest of the game more, to each their own but my personal preff is light path. dps....incomming dmg.... if u can one hit kill (quiv palm) or banish (dismissing strike) things reliably, theyre not gonna do dmg back and one hit....theres not anymore dps then that. as to incomming dmg....if its stunned (which both can do but shintao will soon do from afar as well, and have an extra stun to keep its target stunned) theres no incomming dmg there either. also every hit will be a critical and u can beat on them with fists of light while they arent hitting back. literally at LEAST 80% of the time i am in non raid pugs i have more then twice the kills of the next higest, including casters. no kill number dont matter so much to some ppl, but if things are dying/stunned that fast theres not much dmg bein done to the party for the healer to worry about, so lights dont only add buffs to the group.

ill say again tho, to each their own! yes dark path IS more viable for boss beating at end game and if thats the majority of wat u play, then go for it! anjoy it! no ones stopping you! if you rather spend ur time elsewhere in the game rather then raids, or dont play often enough to power level everything you make, take light and enjoy godmodeing everything.

read the signature :)

SINIBYTE

09-18-2010, 07:55 PM

To sum it up...

Pre-PrE (heh) light monks were vastly superior to dark monks. Post-PrE dark monks are vastly more common due to the insane DPS increases of the class as a whole. Once dark was not only viable, but actually an "upgrde" in compared to light, many switched. (Remeber back when everyone said most monks were gimp, and dark monks were simply laughed at?). When the next round of changes comes (*ahem* U7, check the forums), there will be new builds, new experimentation, and whole new line of "this new thing is vastly superior to the old thing(s). Everyone will dig in, and the debate will rage on.

azrael4h

09-19-2010, 01:25 AM

When you're asked that question, do you have an apologetic tone when you reply "I am a dark monk"?

I tell them I'm more of a fuchsia.

Soleran

09-19-2010, 03:09 AM

first off ppl gotta save, all the immaturity and name calling in this post....just wow.
second:
each path has its strengths and weaknesses and each has a completely diff playstyle. each is gonna appeal to different ppl. it seems most of the ppl who post on these forums are ppl who have been playing forever and like to focus on dps for end game raids and forget the rest of the game. for ppl who love monks and still wanna do more damage...cool! play a dark monk! for ppl who just wanna build an uber leet raid boss killer....go make a fighter or barb. as to ppl who dont focus exclusively on end game, maybe dont play that often so they lvl slowly or enjoy the rest of the game more, to each their own but my personal preff is light path. dps....incomming dmg.... if u can one hit kill (quiv palm) or banish (dismissing strike) things reliably, theyre not gonna do dmg back and one hit....theres not anymore dps then that. as to incomming dmg....if its stunned (which both can do but shintao will soon do from afar as well, and have an extra stun to keep its target stunned) theres no incomming dmg there either. also every hit will be a critical and u can beat on them with fists of light while they arent hitting back. literally at LEAST 80% of the time i am in non raid pugs i have more then twice the kills of the next higest, including casters. no kill number dont matter so much to some ppl, but if things are dying/stunned that fast theres not much dmg bein done to the party for the healer to worry about, so lights dont only add buffs to the group.

Yes thats been the theme it seems the entire thread, I will end my peace and say once again at 20, light is just inadequete compared to dark for most of what you said, now up to 20 yes light is handy but you get to a point monster hp is so much and your hp is so much higher light is just meh vs dark killing power,

oweieie

09-19-2010, 08:20 PM

It's a barbarian-like build. But with a ton less hp and healing amp. Problem is, like a barbarian, you dont have good AC, and things hit you a lot, and you dont have healing amp or stunning capabilities to stop them. Sure you have ToD, but when you're facing 4 barbazus on Sins or those 3 barbazus that spawn on subterrane portals while you're alone, ToD is freakingly useless. So is blur+shadow fade. You will certainly die, until proof otherwise.

Well as I've cleared the ENTIRE way to hound waiting for the group to form BY MYSELF, you have your proof. And no, ToD wasn't useless, you have a lot less chances to roll a 1 against a beholder with it.

And yes I have void 4 and ToD. And my DCs for dancing and stunning in epics are just fine, thanks. And with displacement and fade I get hit a lot less there than you probably do too.

To sum it up...

Pre-PrE (heh) light monks were vastly superior to dark monks.

But also far and away the worst melee class in the game and had a hard time getting groups because of it. "We have our token monk already, we aren't taking a second" was a very common sentiment. Light monks are last for melee DPS and get carried, they don't contribute.

Odin's_Hugin

09-19-2010, 09:08 PM

Well as I've cleared the ENTIRE way to hound waiting for the group to form BY MYSELF, you have your proof. And no, ToD wasn't useless, you have a lot less chances to roll a 1 against a beholder with it.

And yes I have void 4 and ToD. And my DCs for dancing and stunning in epics are just fine, thanks. And with displacement and fade I get hit a lot less there than you probably do too.

Get your facts straight, stranger.

1. I wasnt talking about your build, which Idk what is. Are you also a WF with less than 20 wis on lv20? Guess not.

2. Displacement clickies? Does that last through long quests? Or is it a dragonmark? If it's a dragonmark, which feats did you "waste" taking it?

3. Im a dark monk with permanent blur and use shadow fade often, so you have nothing on me, k? What Im arguing is that Light monks have better survival abilities than a dark has and I've been proven right again and again. Of course, granted they both have the same AC and equipment.

4. Light monks are more capable of not getting screwed if their lower dc doesnt stun the Beholders and they get disintegrated for a lot of damage. Even if beholders do roll a 20, they can use the shield of light to regain HPs, they can use fists of light and they can (after next update) try to stun the beholder again with Kukan-Do. Actually, they will stun that beholder from afar, not even getting the trouble to having to get into fist range first (which is prone to you getting hold/disintegrated/etc).

5. Did you try to kill the 3 barbazus that spawn when you open a "wrong" portal (which doesnt lead anywhere) on your own, not using vorpals (if you're unlucky, even vorpals wont kill them before they kill you)? Try killing the 3 of them alone and get back to me on how your "displacement" and "shadow fade" are awesome. If you manage to do it, then you have something else up your sleeve which you have not told yet. ToD is not very useful against them. I talk by my own experience.

6. Did you use wholeness of body on the way? I really doubt you didnt. A light monk with same equipment and likely higher stun DC would need it even less, IF they need it at all, doing Healing Shield on rares and Fists of Light anytime they wanted a heal.

7. What's your AC, again? Mine is 66 atm, which I doubt you have, since you probably didnt take combat expertise feat (normally dark monks do not).

8. DC for dancing landing on epics? How many points did you put on CHA?

But also far and away the worst melee class in the game and had a hard time getting groups because of it. "We have our token monk already, we aren't taking a second" was a very common sentiment. Light monks are last for melee DPS and get carried, they don't contribute.

-25% less sp while buffing 12 people doesnt contribute?
+2 to-hit, +2 to skills and +2 damage doesnt contribute?
+5 to hit and skills (read intimidate) doesnt contribute?
getting healed while you fight a boss (read Jailer and anything other than devils) doesnt contribute?
immunity to stun on ToD hard/elite doesnt contribute?

update 7:

+10% of all melee damage and +25% critical lands doesnt help?
+ stun from range doesnt help?

Fail.

I also doubt that a Light monk with 2d12 + shocking burst + holy burst + icy burst* (risia, we dont use named wraps) + flaming* or 2dmg (monk sets) + force critical + whatever else you normally have on your wraps, like greater outside bane, holy of pure good, etc + void strike IV + earth strike III + wind strike IV + stun everytime you want (read criticals) should be considered "poor" dps. It's certainly not top, but I'd say medium dps.

* granted that some bosses have immunity to ice/fire, but not all.

edit: Dont forget that Im a lv20 TR'ed dark monk, so I know exactly how far the usefulness of a dark monk goes, and how far its weakness also goes.

BlackSteel

09-19-2010, 09:18 PM

5. Did you try to kill the 3 barbazus that spawn when you open a "wrong" portal (which doesnt lead anywhere) on your own? Try killing the 3 of them alone and get back to me on how your "displacement" and "shadow fade" are awesome. If you manage to do it, then you have something else up your sleeve which you have not told yet. ToD is not very useful against them. I talk by my own experience.

.

just 3 devils? thats not hard at all. Stunning Fist 1, Stunning Blow 2, ToD 3, Trip a fourth if you want. Rinse & Repeat if theres more than 4.

stunning dc's on a WF are just fine (unless they rolled a 6 wisdom). they do get a tactics line.

Xeraphim

09-19-2010, 09:37 PM

On the original subject, we might benefit from icons like

http://i52.tinypic.com/33oliev.png

for Dark and

http://i55.tinypic.com/2hyl5wz.png

for Light, size reduced for the party icon.

Yes, cheap MSPaint versions in this thread.

That, or stick a moon behind or on the dark and the cleric icon behind or on the light monk.

Odin's_Hugin

09-19-2010, 09:44 PM

Yes thats been the theme it seems the entire thread, I will end my peace and say once again at 20, light is just inadequete compared to dark for most of what you said, now up to 20 yes light is handy but you get to a point monster hp is so much and your hp is so much higher light is just meh vs dark killing power,

Light monks should be providing Stun + Void Strike IV + Situational buffs to aid the fight, not being the "barbarian" of the party. That spot should be for some other class. Twisting that should be twisting the whole monk class into a barbarian. That's the same of you picking an AA to do be the main DPS/tanker of the party. Classes have roles. Monk role is support dps (higher support if dark) and support buffing or stunning (in which light monk excels at).

Now if you get into a party where the monk is the main dps-dealer (that means he'll be getting all agro, remember that), then your party is what is wrong. Monks getting agro should not be the rule, even if it is very common at the moment.

They (dark monks) dont get the higher hp of the barbs, nor get the healing amp and GS guards that they normally will have. They also dont get a high DR as some other dps/tanking classes. The only thing that saves a dark monk is its AC (IF it is a dex/wis build, which are getting rarer for darks). In quests where AC doesnt matter much, he will suck a lot of the cleric's mana if he starts tanking things up. Yes, read epics on this.

Odin's_Hugin

09-19-2010, 09:46 PM

just 3 devils? thats not hard at all. Stunning Fist 1, Stunning Blow 2, ToD 3, Trip a fourth if you want. Rinse & Repeat if theres more than 4.

stunning dc's on a WF are just fine (unless they rolled a 6 wisdom). they do get a tactics line.

They're not "just" normal barbazus. They are crazy to-hit, high damage and high Hp Barbazus. Oh, I forgot to say, they have also High Fortitude saves, to the point that a 42dc stun doesnt land as often as it should. It's not like shavarath map or quests barbazus.

edit: Ok, went again to check those portals... well, I could kill 2, but not 3 of them together, shadow fade or not. They hit for 20-30's, I think. They hit a lot, even with blur + shadow fade. Have high hp. My saves did work around 60% of the time though.

Go there and see ;D

Remember, it's when you pull the rune on the portals at subterrane which leads you to nowhere. If you go all down when you jump into sub, you should see 3 of those said portals, but there are others around. I've explored a lot of the subt with a cleric, and, frankly, without her heals those 3 barbazus would have eaten me alive, shadow fade or not. I can kill 1, maybe 2, but definitely not 3, without having my hp depleted first.

* If you spent enough AP to tactics to matter (+3 or +4), you cant get Void IV, which they both said to have taken on their builds. Look higher on the page. That also presumes they have spent ability raises to make their wisdom higher, which I dont see WF's doing, but hey, I might be wrong.

Soleran

09-19-2010, 10:28 PM

Light monks should be providing Stun + Void Strike IV + Situational buffs to aid the fight, not being the "barbarian" of the party. That spot should be for some other class. Twisting that should be twisting the whole monk class into a barbarian. That's the same of you picking an AA to do be the main DPS/tanker of the party. Classes have roles. Monk role is support dps (higher support if dark) and support buffing or stunning (in which light monk excels at).

Now if you get into a party where the monk is the main dps-dealer (that means he'll be getting all agro, remember that), then your party is what is wrong. Monks getting agro should not be the rule, even if it is very common at the moment.

They (dark monks) dont get the higher hp of the barbs, nor get the healing amp and GS guards that they normally will have. They also dont get a high DR as some other dps/tanking classes. The only thing that saves a dark monk is its AC (IF it is a dex/wis build, which are getting rarer for darks). In quests where AC doesnt matter much, he will suck a lot of the cleric's mana if he starts tanking things up. Yes, read epics on this.

Why on earth would you even bring barbarian into this at all.......hey look fighters dont get barb hp, hey look monks dont get barb hp either......or bring up an AA whose DPS outside of manyshot is not even worth mentioning on single targets.

Hey look light monks do significantly less dps then dark monks and gain marginal survivability in exchange atm, thats how it is. The rest of barbs, rangers, etc is moot it has nothing to do with light vs dark.

Most normally geared ppl even in epic wont have enough heal amp to make light worth while, plus 5 to hit for what 10 seconds .....really? I find all of that hard to be of more value then 500-2500 damage every 15 seconds plus sa.

I've been light and dark and atm really light is just flavor its not a strong path even with void 4 (really roll for 20's to beat dungeons while using your ki to buff or heal, I'll take tod and sa.)

This is all just a matter of opinion but if you want to make it real for ppl make sure to go apples to apples dark monks dont play like barbs (not in my experience) and they tend to be top dps aside for a pure build.

Odin's_Hugin

09-20-2010, 12:04 AM

Hey look light monks do significantly less dps then dark monks and gain [good] marginal survivability in exchange [plus a good sp reduce, a situational stun immunity, no DR's and a cool to-hit buffs] atm, thats how it is.

That's what I've trying to say all along. Sure, it's flavour. But after update 7, it'll be even more flavoured.

The big question to having a huge dps is - can you tank (high hp, high DR, high amp)? If you cant really handle agro well, then why have so much dps? To screw party when you get agro from Horoth or Shadowfiend?

Of course, there may be inti-tanks, but it's not always the case.

Dont get me wrong. Im a dark monk. I'll probably switch to light on my next TR due to update7 and for tasting a bit of the flavour (and have even more survivability).

gott_ist_tot

09-20-2010, 04:57 AM

The big question to having a huge dps is - can you tank (high hp, high DR, high amp)? If you cant really handle agro well, then why have so much dps? To screw party when you get agro from Horoth or Shadowfiend?

For a moment here I thought I'm reading the rogue forums.

Btw. it so happens monks have 10/EPIC constant passive DR so yeah.

And *not* striving for maximum DPS on a melee class is something I have trouble imagining as a good thing to do. What should a dark monk concentracte on improving if not dps?

My vote is dark. Against the grain I've recently started playing a light monk too, but have had troubles justifying the decision to myself. Then I thought 'eh what the heck I just want to play this'. But it shouldn't be this way. Light monk should be viable dps-er or bring some more variety to the game. 1 minute light buffs are not enough, and can be performed by anyone with 3 levels of monk.

Thorzian

09-20-2010, 04:57 AM

Edits on Red.

p.s.1. Also, Im curious - can you show me a dark monk build with Void Strikes + Ninja Spy II + ToD?

p.s.2. Incorporeal stacks with blur in a multiplicative way. So it's not 20% + 25% = 45%, but 20% x 1.25 = 25% total. There are many threads speaking about this.

give me 2 weeks.. he's level 11 atm. will have a 68 ac, GM in fire/wind. ninja 2, void 4, ToD. my 3rd dark monk. the other 2 have 3 GM stances and do not void. they all ninja 2 and ToD.

haclya

09-20-2010, 06:17 AM

Halfling whit void IV

Enhancement: Monk Serenity
Enhancement: Halfling Dexterity I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning I
Enhancement: Halfling Cunning II
Enhancement: Halfling Guile I
Enhancement: Halfling Guile II Enhancement: Halfling Luck (Fortitude) I
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise II
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise III
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy II
Enhancement: Porous Soul
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Void Strike I
Enhancement: Void Strike II
Enhancement: Void Strike III
Enhancement: Void Strike IV
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Storms
Enhancement: Master of Thunder
Enhancement: Adept of Rock
Enhancement: Master of Stone
Enhancement: Adept of Flame
Enhancement: Master of Bonfires
Enhancement: Adept of Rain
Enhancement: Master of the Sea
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Monk Jump I
Enhancement: Monk Jump II
Enhancement: Monk Tumble I
Enhancement: Monk Tumble II
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II

Enjoy

Crinos

09-20-2010, 06:58 AM

They (dark monks) dont get the higher hp of the barbs, nor get the healing amp and GS guards that they normally will have. They also dont get a high DR as some other dps/tanking classes. The only thing that saves a dark monk is its AC (IF it is a dex/wis build, which are getting rarer for darks). In quests where AC doesnt matter much, he will suck a lot of the cleric's mana if he starts tanking things up. Yes, read epics on this.

I disagree with you here on several points.

My dark monk has just under 600HP unbuffed. Not quite fully raged barb levels, but couple that with improved evasion and it's plenty to tank anything.
He also has 275% healing amp, so I don't know why you would think that a dark monk doesn't get the healing amp of a barb. In fact I doubt any barb in the game has that much healing amp.
He certainly doesn't rely on his AC to save him as that's a pitiful 45 or so. Shadow fade and evasion coupled with huge healing amp and a decent pool of HP work very well for tanking and certainly does not suck a lot of the cleric's mana.

Odin's_Hugin

09-20-2010, 07:30 AM

I disagree with you here on several points.

My dark monk has just under 600HP unbuffed. Not quite fully raged barb levels, but couple that with improved evasion and it's plenty to tank anything.
He also has 275% healing amp, so I don't know why you would think that a dark monk doesn't get the healing amp of a barb. In fact I doubt any barb in the game has that much healing amp.
He certainly doesn't rely on his AC to save him as that's a pitiful 45 or so. Shadow fade and evasion coupled with huge healing amp and a decent pool of HP work very well for tanking and certainly does not suck a lot of the cleric's mana.

Ya, there are exceptions, I know. ^^

_______________

Thorzian:

Just curious, how can you have 68 ac without taking any dex enhancement? Since if you're getting GM in fire/air and void IV, I bet there wont be much points left.

rimble

09-20-2010, 11:43 AM

I leveled up to 20 as Light (Strength-based Halfling), and what irritated me the most was all the time you waste.

When I do Water-Light-Water-Aligning the Heavens, that's a significant amount of time I'm doing less damage on many things since the Cold damage is ignored, the Light damage is ignored, and Aligning the Heavens was me doing the 'I Dream of Genie' head nod, wasting more time.

Doing Fire-Light-Fire-Walk of the Sun worked out the same. Fire damage ignored, Light damage ignored, waste-of-time head nod to do the Finishing move.

Regardless of the big Light-vs-Dark debate, regardless of what is 'more effective' (which is somewhat subjective), I was just really irritated at the attacks I had to execute that added damage that was ignored, and then the time wasted doing head nods.

Light-Light-Light-Healing Ki was by far the worst. Not only did I need to wait a significant amount of time between each Light strike (the added damage which was ignored by most things, and during which time I couldn't do more useful strikes) but then I had to waste time on a head nod...and after all that time, usually someone else in the group caused a healer to drop a Mass Cure. So then my Healing Ki is either wasted, or now I'm standing there doing NO STRIKES holding the Healing Ki waiting for 10 - 15 seconds until it's a good time to use it...and fire it off just as another Mass Cure comes in.

Heaven forbid you 'lose' any of the Finishing Moves...TALK ABOUT IRRITATING!

I was running at full speed and going nowhere. At the end, the casters still had plenty of spell points, so I didn't feel like my -25% mattered, and although I could never quantify it, I never really felt like the +2 ToHit mattered or was noticed by anyone. Even the Intimitanks would build for no-fail Intimdate not counting my buff, so adding the buff didn't even matter to them.

I hope they continue trying to make Light more useful...but then again, if there's a good portion of Monks that think Dark is awesome, and a good portion that think Light is awesome, well then I guess they actually did a pretty great job.

I only urge everyone to try both, at least for a few weeks. I don't mean to pick on Mobeius too unnecessarily, but his lack of understanding of the other side of things was painful to read. It's one thing for a Cleric to really have no idea how a Monk works, but for a Light Monk to have no idea how a Dark Monk works is much less understandable to me.

You can't rely on how you perform against other Monks, you have to measure yourself against yourself. Maybe I've grouped with and compared myself to the BEST Light Monk that ever existed, and felt like I outperformed him by 50%. Maybe you've grouped with the WORST Dark Monk that ever existed, and felt like you outperformed him by 50%. It makes any sort of "Well when I grouped with these other Monks..." type statements completely irrelevant.

However, if you could show things you could now do as Light that you couldn't do as Dark, or vice versa, then you've got a good starting point. For me, I can do much more, and much more easily, as Dark than I ever did as Light. However, I also changed other things, so I'm not sure if it can be solely attributed to that change.

(PS - Current Character Overview: Halfling, Dark / Ninja Spy II, Weapon Finesse)

Mobeius

09-20-2010, 12:09 PM

DethTrip

09-20-2010, 04:00 PM

You have no idea what you're talking about. We ARE soloing! Right now. And you're standing there going "well, I s'pose it might work...barely..." Hello!? McFly!? Here I am! Doing it! Easily!

How can you say "We ARE soloing" and mean you are soloing? That doesn't make any sense at all. And I would love to see you solo IQ or above.

rimble

09-20-2010, 04:18 PM

How can you say "We ARE soloing" and mean you are soloing? That doesn't make any sense at all. And I would love to see you solo IQ or above.

Are you serious? Those of us collectively claiming we can solo, are soloing...not together. Seriously...? :confused:

I've done all of IQ and Amrath (not Tower of Despair) solo on Normal (hireling required for Genesis Point). Some day you'll learn how mediocre of a claim to fame that is. I'm not a very elite geared out super player, there are plenty of Monks that can claim greater accomplishments than I have.

Anyways, if you stop arbitrarily limiting yourself and stick with it you'll figure it out. I hope you do, it's fun.

BoBo2020

09-20-2010, 04:24 PM

Jamma

09-20-2010, 04:47 PM

Too bad Void 4 is so utterly useless everywhere else. But epic... its priceless.

Mobeius

09-20-2010, 04:55 PM

Too bad Void 4 is so utterly useless everywhere else. But epic... its priceless.

I disagree with that statement as its still very damaging force attack and not many mobs are immune to it including raid bosses. Although trash mobs are typically not a problem in any quest/raid when the void goes off saves time and resources for all in your group. Not to mention the earsure can do multiple procs and erase multiple mobs from one strike. Finally, the easure works on ALL mobs with exception to red or puple named mobs, that includes constructs and undead and death warded mobs.

The biggest draw back heavy requirments and point cost.

Odin's_Hugin

09-21-2010, 09:50 AM

Just posting to say I re-spec'ed to Light path yesterday and I regret so much not having done it sooner. Seriously, I can really truly solo quests out now, even Sins or quests with a lot of mobs or/and with hard-to-kill red bosses.

Healing Shield is way too **** awesome. There are no words to describe how much I love having full HP AND Ki bar everytime (elegant crane... but with dark I obviously couldnt heal in-fight while fighting off a rare or a red-named in a quest, depending on my dps to kill it before it killed me).

In short..

- Fists of Lightness. Cost: 1 Feat.
- Shintao Monk Pre. Cost: 3 ap.
- Being able to kill Aspidon alone, with 10 starting Hp, 7 neg. levels and exhausted - Priceless

Carpone

09-21-2010, 12:42 PM

When you're asked that question, do you have an apologetic tone when you reply "I am a dark monk"?
It's only relevant in once place: ToD. It's not even an issue now since Waves of Exhaustion works on bosses. Stun immunity will be relevant once again in U7 when the slow portion of Waves of Exhaustion no longer affects bosses.

Carpone

09-21-2010, 12:52 PM

My dark monk has just under 600HP unbuffed. Not quite fully raged barb levels, but couple that with improved evasion and it's plenty to tank anything.
600 HP is not enough for tanking elite Horoth, especially in U7 when Waves of Exhaustion will have little effect on bosses. You will eventually roll a 1 and eat a 500 point disintegrate, and die. Barb hate tanks with larger HP pools are much more likely to survive.

Jamma

09-21-2010, 01:41 PM

600 HP is not enough for tanking elite Horoth, especially in U7 when Waves of Exhaustion will have little effect on bosses. You will eventually roll a 1 and eat a 500 point disintegrate, and die. Barb hate tanks with larger HP pools are much more likely to survive.

Improved evasion for the win. That 500 point disintigrate will hit the monk for 250 hp, leaving him 350 hp for cushion.

Jamma

09-21-2010, 01:47 PM

I disagree with that statement as its still very damaging force attack and not many mobs are immune to it including raid bosses. Although trash mobs are typically not a problem in any quest/raid when the void goes off saves time and resources for all in your group. Not to mention the earsure can do multiple procs and erase multiple mobs from one strike. Finally, the easure works on ALL mobs with exception to red or puple named mobs, that includes constructs and undead and death warded mobs.

The biggest draw back heavy requirments and point cost.

I don't see it working very often in non-epic scenarios. I'm usually using vorpal kamas, the monsters die too fast, etc. If I didn't have it, I wouldn't miss it, I'd just be spamming Earth 4/earth 3 instead of void 4/void 3. Hence useless OUTSIDE epic for me.

Also, I have seen it not work on numerous monsters, for example, umbral gargoyles. I've killed thousands of those things in Shadow Crypt and have never successfully erased one. The crit confirmation (up to a score of 65 at least) always fails.

Now Epic, touching a zillion hp whatever and watching it just melt away... priceless. I still remember my first erase, a hobgoblin had broken through our wall and beelined for our wizard. I ran back, hit him with Void 4 just before he got to the wizzie, and ..... he just poofed. Everybody was 'what the hell was that???

Ripper_WL

09-21-2010, 02:36 PM

Fine dont beleive me... You want to see proof about my light monk, come run with me on Khyber... I am more than willing to put my monk up against criticism on raids/epics...

Like I said before, I dont see light monks coming to make a thread about how people dont use dark monks and stuff. Do light monks need some work? Absolutely, but coming here and say they suck to make your dark monk feel better is wrong. Period.

FYI, the only time I do monk buffs is before a combat or while the team is on the run during the raid/ epic quest. I do agree with Rimble there, that the light side buffs and executables do suck for the most part. Pretty much all I use for light side is Fists of Light and the times TOD raids they want Grasp of the Earth Dragon. Align the Heavens during buffing or Pauses. But Rimble is absolutely right they need to be reworked, mainly the "I Dream of Jeanie" animations could be dropped.

You know suprisiningly, many confuse or forget that Mobeius is a light monk and think he's a dark monk.

My last post on this topic, period. You can be a support group and hug and pat each other and comfort how dark monks are so awesome and amazing and trash talk and bash me. Enjoy. Incidently someone else also neg repped me again in this thread and they cant even man up and say it and why.

Well, i´m on Khyber and saw ur monk on raids. The problem is that ppl like u get confused about "being able to run raids with 11 other players" and "make a difference as a party member". Ur monk doesnt add, he´s just carried by 11 other ppl. Saying that Void IV is good cause it just doesn´t work on bosses is lame, cause bosses r the only challenge on raids and exactly where u need dps the most. Again, u r mistaken when u suppose dark monks have Ki issues to use another strikes besides ToD. The problem about u, Mobeius, is that u assume what ppl can or cannot do based on ur weak build. Statements like "shadow fade gives 10% concealment", ignoring bonuses over a GS blur cloak and others proves u know little about the game. BTW, shadow fade doesnt exactly stack with blur or displacement, it´s a different roll because it´s incorporeality (not concealment). BUT, get a math book and u´ll be able to calculate the increase over a chance of ur enemy to miss u.

Stop living in denial...

P.S: Guy who posted his light monk keeps stealing agro from barb: I laughed... Next time warn the barb not to go afk while tanking

Mobeius

09-21-2010, 02:49 PM

Well, i´m on Khyber and saw ur monk on raids. The problem is that ppl like u get confused about "being able to run raids with 11 other players" and "make a difference as a party member". Ur monk doesnt add, he´s just carried by 11 other ppl. Saying that Void IV is good cause it just doesn´t work on bosses is lame, cause bosses r the only challenge on raids and exactly where u need dps the most. Again, u r mistaken when u suppose dark monks have Ki issues to use another strikes besides ToD. The problem about u, Mobeius, is that u assume what ppl can or cannot do based on ur weak build. Statements like "shadow fade gives 10% concealment", ignoring bonuses over a GS blur cloak and others proves u know little about the game. BTW, shadow fade doesnt exactly stack with blur or displacement, it´s a different roll because it´s incorporeality (not concealment). BUT, get a math book and u´ll be able to calculate the increase over a chance of ur enemy to miss u.

Stop living in denial...

P.S: Guy who posted his light monk keeps stealing agro from barb: I laughed... Next time warn the barb not to go afk while tanking

Hmmmmmm who is your toons, You know me but I dont know you. I dont hide from the shadows and talk trash. Carried by the 11 other players? Really? Did VOD last night soloed and cleared the entire path to the quest zone, tanked Sulu for the raid, held agro easily and still had 18 kills. Too bad you are too ashamed of yourself to say who you are. Get a math book? How much math have you actually done here or are you borrowing others math and experiences. Like I said, I knew coming in this thread dark monks for the most part would want to trash me to make themselves feel better.

KoboldKiller

09-21-2010, 02:55 PM

Ssmooth

09-21-2010, 02:57 PM

I'm impressed about how angry the light monk players are getting. Sure you can do dps, it's simply not comparable to a dark monk. I've had one. LR'd to the dark side.

As far as survivability goes, with same ac the light monk will only have a very slight advantage with healing curse and light finisher.

For dex/wis builds, stun dc is the same.

Please stop saying your dex light monk can out-dps a barb...really, it's just not funny. A dark monk with a lead can, a light monk has no chance, unless that is if everyone turns off PA, haste boost, surge, smites and gives a 2 minute lead.

KoboldKiller

09-21-2010, 02:58 PM

Hmmmmmm who is your toons, You know me but I dont know you. I dont hide from the shadows and talk trash. Carried by the 11 other players? Really? Did VOD last night soloed and cleared the entire path to the quest zone, tanked Sulu for the raid, held agro easily and still had 18 kills. Too bad you are too ashamed of yourself to say who you are. Get a math book? How much math have you actually done here or are you borrowing others math and experiences. Like I said, I knew coming in this thread dark monks for the most part would want to trash me to make themselves feel better.

I play a Dark Monk and I haven't trashed you one bit, but your blustering defense of your Light Monk gives the impression your trying to cover for something.

What do you care what Dark Monk players think anyway? If your happy with your build then move along.

SINIBYTE

09-21-2010, 03:00 PM

I dont hide from the shadows

Maybe if you had Ninja Spy you could... lol? lol. lol indeed.

Ripper_WL

09-21-2010, 03:07 PM

Hmmmmmm who is your toons, You know me but I dont know you. I dont hide from the shadows and talk trash. Carried by the 11 other players? Really? Did VOD last night soloed and cleared the entire path to the quest zone, tanked Sulu for the raid, held agro easily and still had 18 kills. Too bad you are too ashamed of yourself to say who you are. Get a math book? How much math have you actually done here or are you borrowing others math and experiences. Like I said, I knew coming in this thread dark monks for the most part would want to trash me to make themselves feel better.

Cleared the way to VoD... omg thats uber, man... I think i see ppl doing this everytime i run that "tough" lvl 16 raid, with different classes. I wonder what happened once quest started: "Ok guys, everyone turn off PA and don´t use uber weapons, we have a light monk as main tank! No rage, barbs!"

Ripper_WL

09-21-2010, 03:10 PM

i'm Impressed About How Angry The Light Monk Players Are Getting. Sure You Can Do Dps, It's Simply Not Comparable To A Dark Monk. I've Had One. Lr'd To The Dark Side.

As Far As Survivability Goes, With Same Ac The Light Monk Will Only Have A Very Slight Advantage With Healing Curse And Light Finisher.

For Dex/wis Builds, Stun Dc Is The Same.

Please Stop Saying Your Dex Light Monk Can Out-dps A Barb...really, It's Just Not Funny. A Dark Monk With A Lead Can, A Light Monk Has No Chance, Unless That Is If Everyone Turns Off Pa, Haste Boost, Surge, Smites And Gives A 2 Minute Lead.

This ^

Mobeius

09-21-2010, 03:13 PM

Amazing how this thread deteriorated into who's path is better.

Simple fact is both serve a roll and their effectiveness relies more on build, equip and the player behind them more than the path chosen.

I have seen good and bad on both sides.

I have known people who solo quite effectively on either.

ToD does in fact give the Dark Monk a dps boost over Light. That doesn't mean Dark is superior or light is inferior, it just is.

No you dont seem to understand, I have no qualm over dark monks have better DPS than light monks. What I do have a quandry with is dark monks saying light side monks suck and have no DPS. Really go back through the thread and you will see them say "Lightside monks are the suck", etc...

+1 rep for you for being civil

I'm impressed about how angry the light monk players are getting. Sure you can do dps, it's simply not comparable to a dark monk. I've had one. LR'd to the dark side.

As far as survivability goes, with same ac the light monk will only have a very slight advantage with healing curse and light finisher.

For dex/wis builds, stun dc is the same.

Please stop saying your dex light monk can out-dps a barb...really, it's just not funny. A dark monk with a lead can, a light monk has no chance, unless that is if everyone turns off PA, haste boost, surge, smites and gives a 2 minute lead.

Which you being a LR to dark you are going to be in defense of it, and look, you dont beleive me stealing agro from barbs, thats fine, I know I have and there are others have seen me do it. Do I steal agro from all Barbs, no I dont, the exceptional barbs can hold the agro. I dont need a 2 minute lead either, I do 30 seconds lead. If someone keeps stealing agro from me, I tell them to turn off power attack and thats its. A majority of the time I am good at holding agro and saying a light monk has no chance is plain wrong. I do it all the time.

I play a Dark Monk and I haven't trashed you one bit, but your blustering defense of your Light Monk gives the impression your trying to cover for something.

What do you care what Dark Monk players think anyway? If your happy with your build then move along.

Because, what is said on the forums usually translates to the game, dark monks here saying light monks suck and zero DPS could and will translate to in game groups disallowing light side monks. These prejudices hold true on opinion and not facts. Now if they come in talk about how they do great DPS and dont trash light monks thats different. Like I said before, go read the thread.. You will see posts "light monks are the suck" and have no DPS. Which is absolute lie. Anyone who played a light monk and thinks their DPS sucks simply a bad player and doesnt know how to twitch the light monk correctly and wanted the easy button with TOD.

Crinos

09-21-2010, 03:13 PM

Mobeius

09-21-2010, 03:15 PM

Cleared the way to VoD... omg thats uber, man... I think i see ppl doing this everytime i run that "tough" lvl 16 raid, with different classes. I wonder what happened once quest started: "Ok guys, everyone turn off PA and don´t use uber weapons, we have a light monk as main tank! No rage, barbs!"

See you're still too skerred to even admit your toons.. Still more trash talking.. Clear the way to VOD, Hmmmmm 99% of the time I see people waiting for the entire group to zone in and grab buffs before even attemtping to clear to VOD or Hound.

Hi Welcome

Soleran

09-21-2010, 03:20 PM

Mobeius

09-21-2010, 03:25 PM

I haven't seen alot of threads where people say light monks suck but their buffs are a bit meh at 20 to say the least with 1 minute timers as opposed to some of the dps that dark monks provide for faster kills as well as survival tools with stun and the fact concealment works on bosses.

Just look through this thread about "light" sucking... I agree the light side buffs could use some serious reworking but it has uses. I have not once said dark monks suck, subpar DPS, DPS lower than light monks. I have agreed that dark monks DPS is greater than light side monks. I never said anything otherwise. The only thing I ever said is light side monks dont suck and I have been personally attacked over and over for that. Including one that says he has seen me in raids and I get carried and I suck but cant even man up and say who his toons are that did this.

KoboldKiller

09-21-2010, 03:32 PM

I think I can shed some light (no pun intended) on the belief that Light Monks have no DPS.

It has been my experience as well as many of the build posts I have seen that Light Monks tend to lean towards dex/wis while Dark Monks lean towards str being a primary stat thus leading to higher DPS. The Light Monk seems to have been pigeon holed into the "high ac high survivability" category.

This may not hold true with ALL builds.

A Light Monk is able to DPS but as has been mentioned will be behind the Dark for the simple reason they have ToD.

Regardless, as I mentioned before for those who are using this thread as a way to decide which path to take, your build, equipment and player skill is going to determine how effective your Monk will be, the paths just give you different options and abilities.

I will chime in on Void strike, while it is awesome IF you roll a 20, being able to do 500+ points of damage every time your cool down resets can't be matched by a Light Monk.

rimble

09-21-2010, 03:49 PM

I think I can shed some light (no pun intended) on the belief that Light Monks have no DPS.

The only real basic difference between Dark and Light is ToD and the basic Dark attack, Fists of Darkness (Light's only works on Undead which I personally rarely encounter at end game, so just going to say that's not contributing to damage most of the time).

So all things being equal, Dark DPS = Light DPS + ToD + Fists of Darkness + Ninja Spy II (when applicable)

So sure, Dark has more DPS, but it's not in some other cosmic level of awesomness that utterly blows Light away.

The problem comes in the playstyle. Dark has nothing to worry about other than DPS. There are no buffs to bother with, and no debuffs are really worthwhile (and of course pointless on bosses). So Dark DPS is something like this:

Dark DPS = Base Damage + ToD + Earth Strikes + Wind Strikes + Fists of Darkness (Void Strike, Fists of Iron, whatever your rotation is) + Ninja Spy II

Now, Light has spent all these resources going down this path that provide buffs. They want to execute these buffs because hopefully they will be beneficial to the group, and, well, they invested resources in them, they're vested in seeing them used. Unfortunately, the common buffs are built up off of strikes that are ignored in a pretty decent amount of content. So while building up Water-Light-Water, Fire-Light-Fire, and Light-Light-Light, in immune content, their DPS is:

Light DPS = Base Damage

Then, of course, there is time wasted executing the 'head nod' on those buffs. And now although Light subtracted a bunch of things from their DPS calculation (-Earth Strikes, -Wind Strikes, -Void Strikes) to build up these Finishing Moves, the Finishing Moves themselves aren't making a comparably significant bonus to some other equation. And if you AREN'T keeping these Finishing Moves up, then why did you go Light?

As it turns out, nobody needed that +2 ToHit or Skills.

The quest is over, and the casters still have plenty of spell points.

Nobody noticed your healing, because it was easily overriden by the FvS.

So Light took all these minuses, but didn't provide equally significant pluses. In theory, Light DPS isn't so off from Dark DPS...in practice, it is, because Light is compelled to waste time doing things that don't contribute in a significant way. Light achieves it's greatest potential by avoiding all things Light related...so why go Light?

I hope that Shintao can make these tradeoffs more beneficial, but on paper it doesn't look like it to me.

Ripper_WL

09-21-2010, 03:52 PM

Ssmooth

09-21-2010, 03:57 PM

Which you being a LR to dark you are going to be in defense of it, and look, you dont beleive me stealing agro from barbs, thats fine, I know I have and there are others have seen me do it. Do I steal agro from all Barbs, no I dont, the exceptional barbs can hold the agro. I dont need a 2 minute lead either, I do 30 seconds lead. If someone keeps stealing agro from me, I tell them to turn off power attack and thats its. A majority of the time I am good at holding agro and saying a light monk has no chance is plain wrong. I do it all the time.

Please don't misunderstand me, I tanked VOD while still a light monk and it was easy. I'm not saying that you can't/haven't done it. If you have pulled aggro from a barb, I guess all I can say is I feel sorry for that barb.

You probably do have decent dps and most likely know your monk very well.

I am biased. I leveled light, TR'd into light to cap and tried shintao. At cap, I stopped using the buffs. They weren't worth the ki spent for them. Having almost identical survivability on the dark side vs light and adding in ToD was just too huge for me.

When you have to use ToD with care because you might 'accidently' do 2500 damage, you've got powa. I guess I just couldn't resist the dark side :D

Mobeius

09-21-2010, 04:00 PM

"Which you being a LR to dark you are going to be in defense of it, and look, you dont beleive me stealing agro from barbs, thats fine, I know I have and there are others have seen me do it. Do I steal agro from all Barbs, no I dont, the exceptional barbs can hold the agro. I dont need a 2 minute lead either, I do 30 seconds lead. If someone keeps stealing agro from me, I TELL THEM TO TURN OFF POWER ATTACK and thats its. A majority of the time I am good at holding agro."

Turn PA off = lower overall dps = longer quest duration = more resources spent = I rest my case

About the "light monks stealing agro from barbs", there´s only a few explanations 4 that:

- Monk was drunk and imagined he was stealing agro from barb, but he was hitting a kobold
- Barb was drunk and was swinging weapon on a pillar
- Barb was afk and forgot to toggle autoattack on
- Someone´s cat/dog managed to jump on keyboard while player was afk, joined a party and typed "i can be main tank" by accident

There you go taking me out of context again thinking I request EVERYONE to turn of PA and/or I always ask them to turn of PA. I said IF someone keeps stealing agro I will ask them. More claims of knowing how it is or how my monk fights and STILL you can't even admit who your toons are. :rolleyes: Yes I am calling you out, either man up or shut up.

FYI, I never volunteer to tank, I am usually requested or suggested to do so.

Soleran

09-21-2010, 04:01 PM

Right that was exactly my reason for leaving light after having spent months at 20 playing that way, lets see what shintao can bring to the table because it is just dr bypassing really thats not a big deal after you get tod rings.

Setting up marginally useful buffs for ppl that really don't expect it or base their playstyle on it while losing even more dps to me was frustrating, Rimble you said it well in your post.

Mobeius

09-21-2010, 04:05 PM

Please don't misunderstand me, I tanked VOD while still a light monk and it was easy. I'm not saying that you can't/haven't done it. If you have pulled aggro from a barb, I guess all I can say is I feel sorry for that barb.

You probably do have decent dps and most likely know your monk very well.

I am biased. I leveled light, TR'd into light to cap and tried shintao. At cap, I stopped using the buffs. They weren't worth the ki spent for them. Having almost identical survivability on the dark side vs light and adding in ToD was just too huge for me.

When you have to use ToD with care because you might 'accidently' do 2500 damage, you've got powa. I guess I just couldn't resist the dark side :D

Nothing wrong with that, I have contemplated going dark myself several times. Heck I still do, but my point is that light side monks dont suck and their DPS is not subpar as with everything, if built right and has the right tools.

Maybe thats my Difference, I didnt go Dex/Ws I went Strength and Con. I didnt go Shintao either and more than likely wont even with the new update. I went light, void 4/3, stuns, and elemental strikes. At maximum I can hit a 48 Strength (dont have exceptional strength item either) and maybe that helps a lot.

Ripper_WL

09-21-2010, 04:10 PM

There you go taking me out of context again thinking I request EVERYONE to turn of PA and/or I always ask them to turn of PA. I said IF someone keeps stealing agro I will ask them. More claims of knowing how it is or how my monk fights and STILL you can't even admit who your toons are. :rolleyes: Yes I am calling you out, either man up or shut up.

FYI, I never volunteer to tank, I am usually requested or suggested to do so.

1. A good tank shouldnt have to ask ppl to turn off dps, unless under specific circunstances. Yes, u can tank, i´m not questioning it. Now imagine ur monk using ToD and tell me which 1 is better FOR THAT PURPOSE. Now tell me which light buff is better than ToD if u wanna be main tank.

2. Lemme guess... Ur monk is WF? If so, u still cant figure out why ppl ask u to tank Suulo? Really? No clue at all?

Ssmooth

09-21-2010, 04:12 PM

Nothing wrong with that, I have contemplated going dark myself several times. Heck I still do, but my point is that light side monks dont suck and their DPS is not subpar as with everything, if built right and has the right tools.

Maybe thats my Difference, I didnt go Dex/Ws I went Strength and Con. I didnt go Shintao either and more than likely wont even with the new update. I went light, void 4/3, stuns, and elemental strikes. At maximum I can hit a 48 Strength (dont have exceptional strength item either) and maybe that helps a lot.

I think your build/play-style is probably what sets you apart from 'most' light monks and contributes greatly to your dps.

Realistically, if you did end up going dark, you would have all of the same abilities(minus a couple of buffs) and a significant increase in dps, which you undoubtedly know.

rimble

09-21-2010, 04:26 PM

Realistically, if you did end up going dark, you would have all of the same abilities(minus a couple of buffs) and a significant increase in dps, which you undoubtedly know.

Yup, go from usually having aggro to always having aggro. WF Dark tanks are bombastic! ToD for aggro goodness, 25% Incorporeality, +20% (is that right?) Healing Amp from Jid'z Teka bracers in Fire stance...great googly moogly!

Mobeius

09-21-2010, 04:41 PM

I think your build/play-style is probably what sets you apart from 'most' light monks and contributes greatly to your dps.

Realistically, if you did end up going dark, you would have all of the same abilities(minus a couple of buffs) and a significant increase in dps, which you undoubtedly know.

Well, I am a fan of Void 4/3 and IDK, maybe because I do things differently it is a little more reliable. I tried something different and took power critical as a feat choice and while I know it has limited usefullness, it does sure stick the void 4 erasure when they hit. I love seeing three heavy HP mobs, Epic, Undead all being void striked and erased as well. I just cant reasonably see going ninja and gving up void 4...

I love healing curse as well and I love the challenge of proving people wrong. Could I do more DPS, sure, but as of right now, I do enough DPS and have enough tools to carry my own weight.

However, I do see MANY MANY dark monks now and coming up through the ranks and wonder how long till they do a balance check for monks, light and dark. Especially when they do research pass and see a glaring disparity somewhere.

I guess really, my monk would be considered a neutral monk with light tendacies.

rimble

09-21-2010, 04:44 PM

Well, I am a fan of Void 4/3 and IDK, maybe because I do things differently it is a little more reliable. I tried something different and took power critical as a feat choice

#1) *snicker*

and while I know it has limited usefullness, it does sure stick the void 4 erasure when they hit. I love seeing three heavy HP mobs, Epic, Undead all being void striked and erased as well. I just cant reasonably see going ninja and gving up void 4...

#2) You don't have to go Ninja...although 25% Incorporeality on a tank is incredible. There are a vast number of other ways to receive healing (or repairing as the case may be), but no one can give you Incorporeality.

Slam

09-21-2010, 07:02 PM

1. A good tank shouldnt have to ask ppl to turn off dps

I don't know what kind of groups you run with, but if you run with 2 or 3 of some of the best DPS tanks in the game, you *need* to ask some to take of PA. I've seen Horroth change agro 2-3 times between the same people. Nobody can predict the outcome of the random number generator, nor the specifc DPS output of any given tank during a given fight.

My only point here is that if you have *one* tank that's so uber he can't ever lose agro in any situation, *** is wrong with the rest of the melee???

Ripper_WL

09-21-2010, 08:11 PM

I don't know what kind of groups you run with, but if you run with 2 or 3 of some of the best DPS tanks in the game, you *need* to ask some to take of PA. I've seen Horroth change agro 2-3 times between the same people. Nobody can predict the outcome of the random number generator, nor the specifc DPS output of any given tank during a given fight.

My only point here is that if you have *one* tank that's so uber he can't ever lose agro in any situation, *** is wrong with the rest of the melee???

I see ur point, but let's be realistic regarding ToD. If u have really high dps in ur party, all u gotta do is give main tank 1 min to establish agro. Hell, if u have that many uber dps ppl, give main tank 2 mins who cares? After that, all he gotta do is hold agro till Suulo drops, then he'll have all the time he needs to generate enough hate while others r killing Suulo. If u do that and ur main tank still looses agro, i'm sorry but u chose the wrong main tank 4 that party config.

I have A LOT of ToD completions and i gotta be honest with u when i say the situation u described is very rare. I only saw this kind of agro swap when ppl were trying to intimidate Horoth (must add i hate this style) and either lag or intimifail happened.

Now tell me how annoying it is to have a secondary tank (i.e. Suulo tank) constantly loosing agro while healers r focused or main tank? That's - according to my experience - when most failed runs happen.

Odin's_Hugin

09-22-2010, 10:27 AM

Having almost identical survivability on the dark side vs light and adding in ToD was just too huge for me.

No. Definitely not. At all. Unless you're talking about trash mobs with poor to-hit, and even so it wont have same survivability unless you're using a hugely amount of pots in-quest or running away and using WoB when you're in danger.

Light monks have way higher survivability. I just changed from dark to light, and I had/have 66 ac + permanent blur. Shadow fade cant compare with the tons of +1/+2's you get while using Wind IV on a red-named/rare/boss.

Question:
- show me a Dark Monk "tanking" the Paladin Boss at Running with the Devils, and making him unable to kill you (although you cant kill it as well unless you have Unholy Burst, but even with ToD I remember being unable to out-dps his frequent Self-Heal).
- Show me a dark monk tanking and killing Aspidon rare at Amrath without running away.
- Show me a dark monk soloing Sins of Attrition without WoB or pots.
- etc.

* Sure Dark is awesome when you're with a group and have no worries about survivability - just care about your DPS outcome. But only dps-outcome does not cut it for most times while solo'ing.

And with Update7, the 10% damage increase and the -25% fortification that a light monk will be able to land on Raid bosses, it will very likely offer an even higher increase to dps than Touch of Death does.

So a light monk would outcome dark in both
- Higher survival
- Helping dps raid bosses (although you'll increase the overall damage, not specifically yours) - which was the sole purpose of going dark.

However that's valid only if you have 1 monk in your party. If you have 2 or more, just 1 should be a light monk.

Shyver

09-22-2010, 10:29 AM

I play a light monk, but I solo 90% of the time and the survivability that I feel it gives me fits my playstyle.

SINIBYTE

09-22-2010, 10:49 AM

Well, I am a fan of Void 4/3 and IDK, maybe because I do things differently it is a little more reliable. I tried something different and took power critical as a feat choice and while I know it has limited usefullness, it does sure stick the void 4 erasure when they hit. I love seeing three heavy HP mobs, Epic, Undead all being void striked and erased as well. I just cant reasonably see going ninja and gving up void 4...

Void has nothing to do with being a light monk. It is not exclusive to light monks.

I love healing curse as well and I love the challenge of proving people wrong. Could I do more DPS, sure, but as of right now, I do enough DPS and have enough tools to carry my own weight.

When grinding on lowbies, I like having light monks in my parties. When I was grinding my own monks, I was light. When I started raiding endgame, I went dark. When I raid endgame, I like having dark monks in the party. The more DPS, the faster things die, the shorter the fight, the less opportunity for mistakes and the less resources are required. The longer the fight, the longer the opportunity for failure (this goes for all classes).

However, I do see MANY MANY dark monks now and coming up through the ranks and wonder how long till they do a balance check for monks, light and dark. Especially when they do research pass and see a glaring disparity somewhere.

There is a disparity. That being, light monks do less DPS. Period.

I guess really, my monk would be considered a neutral monk with light tendacies.
There's no grey area with this, you choose your feat, you get certain abilities...

Odin's_Hugin

09-22-2010, 11:36 AM

When grinding on lowbies, I like having light monks in my parties. When I was grinding my own monks, I was light. When I started raiding endgame, I went dark. When I raid endgame, I like having dark monks in the party. The more DPS, the faster things die, the shorter the fight, the less opportunity for mistakes and the less resources are required. The longer the fight, the longer the opportunity for failure (this goes for all classes).

There is a disparity. That being, light monks do less DPS. Period.

That might be so. However, consider this:

1. Light Monks can give a -25% sp cost for both clerics and mages, making it more easily for their sp to last for a longer time and, thus, lessening the "resources required".

2. Light monks can do Grasp of the Earth dragon for Horoth, which sometimes greatly reduces the "resources required", specially after update 7 (with no slowness or tendon slice).

3. Light monk will be able, after Update 7, to increase in 10% all the party's melee output, plus reduce in 25% the Raid Boss fortification, and thus allowing for an insane amount of more criticals.

I do think that light, pos-update7, will be very, very useful for lessening resources required. As I said on my other post, that is mostly valid for 1 light monk vs 1 dark monk in your party. If you have more than 1 monk, the more Dark Monks, the better.

rimble

09-22-2010, 11:50 AM

- Show me a dark monk soloing Sins of Attrition without WoB or pots.

Such arbitrary limitations are absolutely pointless to the argument.

Can Light do it? Yes.

Can Dark do it ? Yes.

HOW you do it is irrelevant. Perhaps, how easily or how quickly you do it is something to wave your e-peen over, but 'without outside resources' is just dumb. Resources are there to be used.

It's been a while since I've done it, so if I find the time/inclination I'll see how my Dark does at these random tasks.

Oh, and another thing against Light self-healing soloing...I can bring a Cleric Hireling. You can argue over that not being solo all you want, doesn't matter to me, but this is the basic problem with Light. What it provides I can get from SOOO many other places (potions, scrolls, wands, dragonmarks, hirelings, WoB, and on and on) that it's pointless to provide it myself.

Of course, I'm fabulously wealthy, so conservation of resources is an irrelevant metric to me.

I agree Update 7 will improve the situation, I hope it's enough for me to more appreciate what a Light Monk brings (it certainly won't be enough to make me switch back).

MikeyMang

09-22-2010, 12:10 PM

Shyver

09-22-2010, 12:16 PM

OK.
Now lets think here. By the time you get the 50 Ki or w/e it costs, that light monk that you are bagging on already hit his Void 4, Wind 4, Fire 4, Earth 4, and Water 4 punches 2 times each. So.... hmmmmmm.... lets think. Light monk was in the lead with the damage counter and when the dark punch hit his Touch of Death, all he did was catch back up.

While I like what you're trying to do here, I feel I must point out that the Fire 4 and Water 4 pops IMMUNE on a lot of end game (and other) content. Also, not going to do the math, but I'm pretty sure that even hitting all those attacks twice will still not add up to 500 dmg, even less so if it doublestrikes or more.

SINIBYTE

09-22-2010, 12:19 PM

OK.
First of all, Ripper, youre monk is terrible. With that said, your opinion on Monks means nothing IMHO.

Now, for the Light Path/Dark path arguement, the DPS is the same. The only difference between the 2 is that the Light monk is more survivable and has better buffs. The dark monk can lower Fortification tho!!! LOL When you can lower the fort of shroud portals then my arguement may change to Dark. But that hasn't happened yet.

I understand that the dark monk has the Touch of death. Yay. 500 point hit.

Now lets think here. By the time you get the 50 Ki or w/e it costs, that light monk that you are bagging on already hit his Void 4, Wind 4, Fire 4, Earth 4, and Water 4 punches 2 times each. So.... hmmmmmm.... lets think. Light monk was in the lead with the damage counter and when the dark punch hit his Touch of Death, all he did was catch back up.

Oh, but i'm sure ill have some kind of absurd, tunnel visioned, arguement that light monks are still somehow less DPS. Lets get real here. The speed that monks hit, dark path is useless. Light path I can solo all day. And light actually has usefull buffs

OH OH BUT I CAN BLIND AN OPPONENT(LOL @ DARK MONKS THAT USE THAT). all i have to say for you, gimpy dark monk is, yay.

And one more thing. Player's builds mean nothing. It's all about the player. If you are a good player then you toon will do good no matter what. Bad players will be sitting in my backpack collecting dust.

I suppose we could backtrack here, even thought we already had this discussion.

Dark monks do not AFK while tapping TOD every 15 seconds. It's not just "500 damage", it's 500 untyped damage that can proc multiple times (up to 2500, I *very* often get double and triple procs). Dark monks have plenty of Ki (I run with a full yellow bar quite often), and cycle in Earth strikes as part of normal rotation without any Ki issues whatsoever. Earth strikes are, again, untyped damage. Untyped damage>Elemental Damage. And the last point, Dark monks solo all day, too. Player skill aside, as for raw numbers, equal player on equal footing with equivalent gear... Dark out-DPS's Light.

KoboldKiller

09-22-2010, 12:25 PM

OK.
First of all, Ripper, youre monk is terrible. With that said, your opinion on Monks means nothing IMHO.

Now, for the Light Path/Dark path arguement, the DPS is the same. The only difference between the 2 is that the Light monk is more survivable and has better buffs. The dark monk can lower Fortification tho!!! LOL When you can lower the fort of shroud portals then my arguement may change to Dark. But that hasn't happened yet.

I understand that the dark monk has the Touch of death. Yay. 500 point hit.

Now lets think here. By the time you get the 50 Ki or w/e it costs, that light monk that you are bagging on already hit his Void 4, Wind 4, Fire 4, Earth 4, and Water 4 punches 2 times each. So.... hmmmmmm.... lets think. Light monk was in the lead with the damage counter and when the dark punch hit his Touch of Death, all he did was catch back up.

Oh, but i'm sure ill have some kind of absurd, tunnel visioned, arguement that light monks are still somehow less DPS. Lets get real here. The speed that monks hit, dark path is useless. Light path I can solo all day. And light actually has usefull buffs

OH OH BUT I CAN BLIND AN OPPONENT(LOL @ DARK MONKS THAT USE THAT). all i have to say for you, gimpy dark monk is, yay.

You might have had a valid argument until you decided to put that little tidbit in.

For the record if I cycle my ToD then through my earth strikes twice I am cycling my ToD again . Oh and as for the Dark Monk catching back up when hitting ToD unless your Light monk just managed to pull off 500+ damage with those 2 cycles he is still behind a Dark Monk's ToD as the Dark monk has also cycled twice through their strike sequence. I am not saying Light Monks can't DPS as I have said several times in this thread but for you to assume the Dark monk isn't cycling through their DPS sequence before they use ToD shows your lack of knowledge on the subject. One last thing I find it amusing you think it will take that much time for a Dark Monk to build the 50 ki needed for ToD. You do realize that most Dark Monk's are actually waiting for the timer to reset and not for the ki needed?

rimble

09-22-2010, 12:31 PM

OK.
First of all, Ripper, youre monk is terrible. With that said, your opinion on Monks means nothing IMHO.

This is quite possibly the most useless post in this thread. Aside from that snippy comment I just made, I'll try and respond intelligently.

To me, the only opinion that holds less value are from those who haven't spent a decent amount of time playing both ways, both Light and Dark. Fortunately, those peoples comments really make them stand out as such a person, so it's relatively easy to weigh their opinion accordingly.

Now, for the Light Path/Dark path arguement, the DPS is the same. The only difference between the 2 is that the Light monk is more survivable and has better buffs. The dark monk can lower Fortification tho!!! LOL When you can lower the fort of shroud portals then my arguement may change to Dark. But that hasn't happened yet.

I've outlined previously why the DPS is not the same, above and beyond just ToD. Oh, and you can lower Fortification on portals it's just hard, they have a high Fortitude save. I usually don't bother, but maybe a Wis-focused Dark Monk could do it more reliably. Anyways, they're just effin' passive objects that just sit there, who cares?

I understand that the dark monk has the Touch of death. Yay. 500 point hit.

Now lets think here. By the time you get the 50 Ki or w/e it costs, that light monk that you are bagging on already hit his Void 4, Wind 4, Fire 4, Earth 4, and Water 4 punches 2 times each. So.... hmmmmmm.... lets think. Light monk was in the lead with the damage counter and when the dark punch hit his Touch of Death, all he did was catch back up.

Oh, but i'm sure ill have some kind of absurd, tunnel visioned, arguement that light monks are still somehow less DPS. Lets get real here. The speed that monks hit, dark path is useless. Light path I can solo all day. And light actually has usefull buffs

First, Dark has plenty of Ki when it matters to constantly cycle attacks and hit ToD every 15 seconds. This is a fact, I do it constantly.

Second, you don't have Void 4, Wind 4, Earth 4, and Water 4, and if you really do...well, I guess I just go back to the first statement of my response.

Third, the Fire and Water strike damage is ignored by many things, why are you doing that?

Fourth, if you're cycling all those attacks, how are you firing off your buffs? At some point you need to throw in your Water-Light-Water, Fire-Light-Fire, and Light-Light-Light (which is particularly slow to build up) attacks...all of which add damage that are frequently ignored. All of which require a 'waste of time' head nod to execute the finisher.

OH OH BUT I CAN BLIND AN OPPONENT(LOL @ DARK MONKS THAT USE THAT). all i have to say for you, gimpy dark monk is, yay.

Right, they don't. They're too busy cycling raw damaging attacks to bother.

And one more thing. Player's builds mean nothing. It's all about the player. If you are a good player then you toon will do good no matter what. Bad players will be sitting in my backpack collecting dust.

Eh, mostly true. So if you take two builds, Light and Dark, with good player, good equipment, and good build, and I had to choose one, I'd always take Dark, and anyone who knows anything about Monks would.

It shouldn't be so cut and dry like that. I WANT Light to bring more, but right now it just doesn't.

Please realize we're not TRYING to attack YOU (or anyone specifically). We're trying to point out why we think Light is weaker than Dark, and unfortunately that implies that we feel superior. That's not the point. This isn't e-peen waving, it's trying to get Light improved. Why don't Light Monks want that?

Odin's_Hugin

09-22-2010, 12:39 PM

Such arbitrary limitations are absolutely pointless to the argument.

Can Light do it? Yes.

Can Dark do it ? Yes.

HOW you do it is irrelevant. Perhaps, how easily or how quickly you do it is something to wave your e-peen over, but 'without outside resources' is just dumb. Resources are there to be used.

It's been a while since I've done it, so if I find the time/inclination I'll see how my Dark does at these random tasks.

Oh, and another thing against Light self-healing soloing...I can bring a Cleric Hireling. You can argue over that not being solo all you want, doesn't matter to me, but this is the basic problem with Light. What it provides I can get from SOOO many other places (potions, scrolls, wands, dragonmarks, hirelings, WoB, and on and on) that it's pointless to provide it myself.

Of course, I'm fabulously wealthy, so conservation of resources is an irrelevant metric to me.

I agree Update 7 will improve the situation, I hope it's enough for me to more appreciate what a Light Monk brings (it certainly won't be enough to make me switch back).

Well, that might be true on some aspects. But on some quests, like Sins, your Hireling Cleric will be killed if you bring her to heal you. The devils/barbazus have a particular taste to killing hirelings. That's the same in the subterrane, when you back-click a portal you just used. Hirelings would (if they could be summoned) not last there either.

Basically, when you need them the most (i.e. when you're fighting a lot of mobs at the same time) is when they have less usefulness (they will die most of the times, leaving you alone anyway).

Needless to say, you cant WoB while fighting rares or red-bosses. You can drink pots, but they have a cooldown, you're greatly slowing your dps and well, I dont think pots can heal you for that much to fight a boss drinking them. Try fighting Aspidon on Amrath and you'll understand why not.

Shyver

09-22-2010, 12:40 PM

DPS: Dark > Light
Survivability: Light > Dark
Buffs: Light > Dark

It's not to say that Light can't do DPS, or Dark doesn't have survivability. One is just ahead of the other in each catagory, which catagory is more important is up to the player and their style.

But that Dark puts out more DPS than Light is just a fact, and it's not even all that close really. Hopefully some of the changes to the Shintao PrE will help in this regard, but they will still behind Dark, and they should be. Dark monks are all about the bad ju-ju, even their PrE is sneaky and evil sounding, and as such should do more DPS.

What light monks need is some work in the survivability department. While it's true that they are ahead of dark monks in this respect with their buffs, those buffs are pretty much useless after greensteel comes a calling. As the biggest one to the monk survivability is the blur, and a greensteel item takes care of that.

Not to mention the "I dream of Genie" head nod further reduces DPS for what, more than not, is a so so benefit.

Anti-stun: Helpful in one or two quests.

+2 hit/dmg: Sure it's helpful, but requires using fire strikes twice which a lot of mobs are immune to.

SP reduction: Nice in raids and epic, but it doesn't benefit the monk himself. Also with the ease that spellcasters can get back SP, I don't ever recall hearing "Gee I really wish we would have had a light monk to help with my sp's."

Blur: Already covered above.

Carpone

09-22-2010, 01:11 PM

Improved evasion for the win. That 500 point disintigrate will hit the monk for 250 hp, leaving him 350 hp for cushion.
Evasion triggers for reflex saves, not fort saves. Disintegrate is a fort save.

rimble

09-22-2010, 01:15 PM

Needless to say, you cant WoB while fighting rares or red-bosses. You can drink pots, but they have a cooldown, you're greatly slowing your dps and well, I dont think pots can heal you for that much to fight a boss drinking them. Try fighting Aspidon on Amrath and you'll understand why not.

Sure. I've been doing 'easy' solo stuff for a long time since I don't need anything out of those harder quests anymore. Level 20 Cleric hirelings are pretty darn tough as long as you don't let them get utterly swarmed though. I'll go poke Aspidon if I get the time/inclination to get a fresher perspective. Not gonna record it or anything, but I'll try and pay particular attention to the things we've been discussing.

Still, I don't think there's anything to look into to change my perspective about grouping with Light. I did that, for a long time. Up to level 20, and then at level 20 for quite awhile. All my opinions in this thread are based on a lot of experience there (although pre-Shintao).

EDIT: Based on potentially significant Update 7 changes (re: ToD change) I'm not gonna bother benchmarking/testing something that may very well change in a few weeks.

KoboldKiller

09-22-2010, 07:31 PM

Thanks to U7 looks like I am going to be a deleted Monk now.

rimble

09-22-2010, 07:34 PM

Thanks to U7 looks like I am going to be a deleted Monk now.

It's incredibly ironic to me that after all my pro-Dark talk in this thread, I may actually go back to Light. I'm sure people don't 'follow' my posts, but one overriding theme, one repeating aspect to my playstyle, is I really dislike situational abilities. It's why I've never gotten into Rogues--Sneak Attack is too situational. Paladin KotC, got him to 18 and got tired of it--too situational. On and on...oh, and Rangers I can handle because at least they have 5 mutable restrictions.

I just solo alot, and I don't like choosing what I want to do based on the restrictive abilities of my character being totally negated depending on the content.

Anyways, if you're buffing yourself or retributively healing yourself, that always works (well, I guess aside from the few things that can't be cursed). I'm big on things always working. Anyways, probably time to focus more on my TR'd Wizard (Archmage is looking really good) and let the Monk simmer for awhile.

BlackSteel

09-22-2010, 07:39 PM

Question:
- show me a Dark Monk "tanking" the Paladin Boss at Running with the Devils, and making him unable to kill you (although you cant kill it as well unless you have Unholy Burst, but even with ToD I remember being unable to out-dps his frequent Self-Heal).
- Show me a dark monk tanking and killing Aspidon rare at Amrath without running away.
- Show me a dark monk soloing Sins of Attrition without WoB or pots.
- etc.

1) done it just fine
2) i dont do much rare hunting, but I'll guess thats probably the horned devil. New Invasion count?
3) did it w/o any problems on hard with a hireling for out of combat heals. The ambushes were easily survivable between Triple HP procs up to 90 temp HP, 10-20 DR, and the stacking of blur/ninja. Didnt bother with elite, as my monk didnt have any bursting rings before I TR'd him back to lvl 1 again.

Scarecrow9

09-22-2010, 07:40 PM

is this thread seriously still going? if ppl actually read it all through im sure they would find that all these 'new' arguments they're bringing to the table were discussed already and this thread really has been summed up multiple times now in a fashion like this:
its ur toon. play wat u like. let everyone else play wat they like.

Auriljr

09-22-2010, 08:04 PM

i'm Confused; Why Was Someone Asking You Questions While You Solo'd? ;)

Rolf

rimble

09-22-2010, 11:21 PM

Mobeius

09-22-2010, 11:28 PM

People skipping to the last page and not reading the few posts before this, please realize ToD seems to be up for a significant change in Update 7. It noticeably changes the whole argument. This thread is effectively moot as we'll all be re-evaluating the Light and Dark situation soon.

I think it goes from one side switching their thought from light monks suck to maybe dark monks suck less? :-P LOL

Those that dont know, U7 will have this change.

Effect Changes

The Touch of Death damage effect is now classified as Negative Energy and possesses a Fortitude Save for half damage.

Honestly with the possbility of triple to quintriple procs its still a very viable and powerful attack. Just not AS uber as before. I am sure the TOD lovers will now switch their arguements about how awesome it is because the x3 to x5 procs to reducing their arguement why it shouldnt be nerfed in a one attack equation.

Odin's_Hugin

09-22-2010, 11:29 PM

1) done it just fine
2) i dont do much rare hunting, but I'll guess thats probably the horned devil. New Invasion count?
3) did it w/o any problems on hard with a hireling for out of combat heals. The ambushes were easily survivable between Triple HP procs up to 90 temp HP, 10-20 DR, and the stacking of blur/ninja. Didnt bother with elite, as my monk didnt have any bursting rings before I TR'd him back to lvl 1 again.

Not everyone has Bracers of Demon's Consort, you know. Anyways, this thread is kinda dead now as ToD got hugely nerfed.

- Not that I didnt see it coming.

edit to the post above: It's corrected, no x4 or x5 procs anymore. Just x2 procs, with x3 with Wind Stance.

Doganpc

09-23-2010, 01:08 PM

I'm getting quite a kick about how this thread foreshadowed the changes to the Touch of Death exploit. Everyone will have to come to terms with the changes as it was an exploit. The Dark Path is about negative energy and the change simply brings it back in line with the overall philosophy. Sorry, it borked you new DPS toy. Regarding the original topic, it seems the choice between Light and Dark just got tougher.

Dogan
Booyah!

Red_Knight

09-24-2010, 11:26 PM

Wow, the nerdrage in this thread is high And frankly, I don't understand it. People seem to think that light monks are super gimped. Why, I'm not really sure. Also not sure where people are getting 2500+ damage from Touch of Death.

I've got a level 13 (currently) light monk, and a dark monk I'm working on. And so far I'm finding the light monk more survivable. Yeah the dark monk does more damage. Big whoop. I fight undead a lot, in which case Fist of Darkness is kinda pointless. And even when my dark monk can do full damage, I'm frequently wishing I had the fist of light finisher. Yeah, it's not a huge heal. But it does help. And when used frequently, it's good at keeping the team up.

Not to mention, having a 'free' remove curse available. I've had many a cleric thankful to have my monk around. And in a stormcleave elite run I ended up being the main healer frequently when the cleric got low on SP.

As for claims that light monks do bad DPS? Yeah, it's not top end dps. However it CAN drop mobs on elite fairly quickly. And if your using elemental strikes which the enemy is immune to, lower dps is your fault.

So please, can someone explain in a clear manner why light monks are so 'gimped'? And without the nerdrage please.

~Joker89

09-25-2010, 12:51 AM

Mobeius

09-25-2010, 01:12 AM

Are they really going to put a save on the dark monks touch of death in update 7 ? Cuz if they did that would be the worst thing that they could do because then monks DPS would drop but a huge amout!!!

Yes... Basically at level 20 it will a DC 30 + Wis Mod, Will save that does Neg Energy damage.

Doctahg

09-25-2010, 01:15 AM

I'm really sick of people, most who aren't end game monks by the way, continually stating that Monks cause 2500 poitns of damage every 15 seconds....it deosn't hapen that much my friends..at least not for me or the 5-6 other dark monks I know. Exaggeration everywhere.

Red_Knight

09-25-2010, 05:25 PM

Yes... Basically at level 20 it will a DC 30 + Wis Mod, Will save that does Neg Energy damage.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the patch notes say it's a FORT save, not a will save?

Mobeius

09-25-2010, 05:48 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the patch notes say it's a FORT save, not a will save?

No you are right, I misquoted it.. its a Fort save...

Doctahg

09-25-2010, 07:01 PM

another misquote or misspell.You are very good at those ion all your posts by the way

Mobeius

09-25-2010, 07:14 PM

another misquote or misspell.You are very good at those ion all your posts by the way

Well thank you! I am not ashamed to admit I am human do make mistakes but also more than man enough to admit when I make a mistake.

You?

I made a mistake on something thats not even live yet.. IM SO SORRY. Some people are very petty you know?

BTW how do I place ion's on my posts?

If you look a few posts just above that, I actually post it as a fort save.

Red_Knight

09-25-2010, 08:24 PM

Mobeius

09-25-2010, 08:49 PM

I think all the nerdrage over fixing something that was clearly broken is... sad. You see it in every MMO when something gets fixed though. And I've been known to complain about a change without really knowing how it'll affect me. But can someone please explain something?

Why is it the community as a while thinks light monks are so gimped?

Because they break it done simply to one ratio... fists are x2 20 crit

They never include everything else in the break down of a light monk. Then ToD became broken and thus started the myth of light monks are gimped.

sweez

09-25-2010, 09:20 PM

Why is it the community as a while thinks light monks are so gimped?

I'd guess because they're melee but not fully 100% dps oriented. I could be wrong, but most of the attitude on the forums concerning melee builds that arent 100% dps (for example stalwart builds, defender builds, even exploiters and the like from what I've seen lately) boils down to one word: gimp.

Red_Knight

09-25-2010, 10:35 PM

Because they break it done simply to one ratio... fists are x2 20 crit

They never include everything else in the break down of a light monk. Then ToD became broken and thus started the myth of light monks are gimped.

Which makes absolutely no sense to me. Yeah, fists only crit on a natural 20. BUT monks do some seriously good damage once they get some levels. I no longer have to worry about most undead. Even zombies go down in 3 or 4 punches each. And that's after their DR takes effect. Beholders? Yeah, I can overwhelm their DR too without the appropriate weapon. Might only do 6 to 9 damage per hit to one, but it's a sign of my damage capabilities I can even do that.

Yes, some mobs give me trouble. Vampires being a big one. Give me a metalline or silver handwrap though, and that vamp will go down really fast. When your doing an average of 22 damage per hit without critical while using vanilla +5 handwraps, your damage isn't gimped. Especially since that's without elemental strikes too. Name another character type that can reliably do that. Especially at level 13.

Many of the high crit chance weapons have low crit multipliers. They also tend to be lower base damage to make up for the higher crit chance. And the weapons with high crit multipliers tend to only crit on a 20. Not all of them, but most. Not to mention the fact that relying on critical hits for your DPS, you get seriously penalized whenever you fight something that can't be crit. Such as undead or constructs.

Burst weapons I notice are highly favored. But don't they require you to crit to get the max damage from them? And if an enemy is immune to crits, wouldn't that negate the Burst effect too? I'd rather build a good solid character who doesn't have to rely on a gimmick.

JollySwagMan

09-25-2010, 10:52 PM

Many of the high crit chance weapons have low crit multipliers. They also tend to be lower base damage to make up for the higher crit chance. And the weapons with high crit multipliers tend to only crit on a 20. Not all of them, but most. Not to mention the fact that relying on critical hits for your DPS, you get seriously penalized whenever you fight something that can't be crit. Such as undead or constructs.

Burst weapons I notice are highly favored. But don't they require you to crit to get the max damage from them? And if an enemy is immune to crits, wouldn't that negate the Burst effect too? I'd rather build a good solid character who doesn't have to rely on a gimmick.

Have you actually tried using a Rapier of Smiting? Although you are attacking a construct, the on-crit effect triggers, you just don't get to multiply your base damage.

Red_Knight

09-25-2010, 10:56 PM

Not really. Haven't gotten any high crit chance weapons with a burst effect. I've gotten plenty of longbows with a burst effect though. haven't seen the 'on crit' effects take place on constructs either.

EDIT: Saw a Smiting weapon. Of course it's 'on crit' effect works on constructs. it's effect is ONLY for constructs.

JollySwagMan

09-25-2010, 11:10 PM

I agree with the rest of your analysis however.

This thread reminds me of the "Radiant Servant is Overpowered" one over at the Cleric forums. The one that we're afraid to bump in case it leads to more nerfage :P

(I think in the Radiant Servant case it worked out pretty well, the only loss being extended Auras and the change to a 'crit on cast or no crit at all' effect, which hurt my crit-specced Light Clonk but allows more gear switching)

Zachski

09-25-2010, 11:26 PM

While I am happy about ToD getting fixed, I am not happy with the method. DDO Devs have proven that it's possible take something OP and make it weaker than it needs to be. The pendulum is swinging a little too far the other way, that is.

Wouldn't the solution have been to make it only proc once regardless of double-strike and off-hand?

Mobeius

09-25-2010, 11:36 PM

Which makes absolutely no sense to me. Yeah, fists only crit on a natural 20. BUT monks do some seriously good damage once they get some levels. I no longer have to worry about most undead. Even zombies go down in 3 or 4 punches each. And that's after their DR takes effect. Beholders? Yeah, I can overwhelm their DR too without the appropriate weapon. Might only do 6 to 9 damage per hit to one, but it's a sign of my damage capabilities I can even do that.

Yes, some mobs give me trouble. Vampires being a big one. Give me a metalline or silver handwrap though, and that vamp will go down really fast. When your doing an average of 22 damage per hit without critical while using vanilla +5 handwraps, your damage isn't gimped. Especially since that's without elemental strikes too. Name another character type that can reliably do that. Especially at level 13.

Many of the high crit chance weapons have low crit multipliers. They also tend to be lower base damage to make up for the higher crit chance. And the weapons with high crit multipliers tend to only crit on a 20. Not all of them, but most. Not to mention the fact that relying on critical hits for your DPS, you get seriously penalized whenever you fight something that can't be crit. Such as undead or constructs.

Burst weapons I notice are highly favored. But don't they require you to crit to get the max damage from them? And if an enemy is immune to crits, wouldn't that negate the Burst effect too? I'd rather build a good solid character who doesn't have to rely on a gimmick.

I am not defending the logic of light monks suck, but this what their logic is for a few things...

Smiting goes off a lot more the larger the crit range. Get a spmiting rapier in the hands of someone that has imp crit piercing...

Burst effect weapons will still proc on crits even on un critable mobs.

Burst Effect weapons do more dmage the higher crit multiplier you have.

So in effect min-maxing means you have the highest crit range weapon or a weapon good crit range and high crit multiplier.

What they fail to mention is that a bad player behind the greatest of built toons is still a bad player. Next, that DPS numbers not going the most optimal routes are not THAT significant.

So when the get to the monks 19-20 X2 fists they dont include everything like the fists damage and elemental strikes nor the fact that monks can hot swap their handwraps in a split second and modify their weapons on the fly.

Then there are the monks who dont play to their full potential and just run and swing and when that happens they look at their old chars and goes OH this sucks... Unless they run ToD then they go oh maybe its comparable.

Red_Knight

09-26-2010, 12:02 AM

I am not defending the logic of light monks suck, but this what their logic is for a few things...

Smiting goes off a lot more the larger the crit range. Get a spmiting rapier in the hands of someone that has imp crit piercing...

Burst effect weapons will still proc on crits even on un critable mobs.

Burst Effect weapons do more dmage the higher crit multiplier you have.

So in effect min-maxing means you have the highest crit range weapon or a weapon good crit range and high crit multiplier.

What they fail to mention is that a bad player behind the greatest of built toons is still a bad player. Next, that DPS numbers not going the most optimal routes are not THAT significant.

So when the get to the monks 18-20 X2 fists they dont include everything like the fists damage and elemental strikes nor the fact that monks can hot swap their handwraps in a split second and modify their weapons on the fly.

Then there are the monks who dont play to their full potential and just run and swing and when that happens they look at their old chars and goes OH this sucks... Unless they run ToD then they go oh maybe its comparable.

And that's where their damage calculations fall apart in my opinion. Let's say the benchmark of a good damage build is using a 18-20/x2 weapon with burst effect. Burst adds what, 2d6 to a critical if the mod is x2? And let's go with a kopash since that's long been considered the best weapon. So 1d8+2d6 is the benchmark. Let's throw in power attack, the weapon being +5, and a strength of 20. End damage is 34-58 damage on a crit But base damage is 16-23 This is considered optimal right?

As a level 13 monk I can deal 2d6 base damage. I crit on a 20 without feats, true. But my standard damage with the same types of equipment would be 17-27. On a crit with the same burst type, I'd do 36-60. Correct? And then I can add in an elemental strike on top of that, doing at 13 either 1d6 or 2d10 damage extra depending on the elemental strike. My crit range isn't as high, but I can do comparable damage. Plus deal said damage faster then someone else could without haste. Even with haste applied to both, I'd be a bit faster.

Of course, DPS means squat in DDO. The nasty foes aren't going to just stand there and let you hit them. They move around, so you have to move around. The true test is burst damage usually. And even there, monks compare favorably. The elemental strikes can be fired off rapidly for burst damage spikes when needed.

EDIT: Of course, monk unarmed damage keeps going up. While the damage of a kopash for example stays pretty much the same.

Rog

09-26-2010, 10:38 PM

Light monk = moderate to low dps, good solo ability.
Dark monk = awesome dps, moderate to low solo ability.

If you like to kill things on your own, go light.
If you like to make a big impact in party/raid groups, go dark.
Simple.

i am scared to tell you the truth! i heard the dark side is getting smacked with the nerf bat. but my 32 point dark monk proir to tr could solo loot run epic which quest is up to you to figue out lol cant solo with a standing 68 ac non buffed self heal invis corpal are you out of your freaking mind man?
feel the power of the dark side of the force before you nerf it with crappy green steel weopons that is.
mojomuscle

BlackSteel

09-26-2010, 10:51 PM

So when the get to the monks 19-20 X2 fists they dont include everything like the fists damage and elemental strikes nor the fact that monks can hot swap their handwraps in a split second and modify their weapons on the fly.

Then there are the monks who dont play to their full potential and just run and swing and when that happens they look at their old chars and goes OH this sucks... Unless they run ToD then they go oh maybe its comparable.

and then you have people that can incorporate a stun or an earth strike on pretty much every single swing. And guess what? yes monks own, but they still dont add up to the potential of other class combinations (this is in regards to pure damage, disregarding utility here)

Red_Knight

10-03-2010, 04:03 AM

Because they don't have a x19-20/3 crit rating? Or because people think that crits are everything? I don't have to crit with every other attack to drop things quickly. I'm not using a weapon that does 1d8 damage on enemies with hundreds of health. And I'm not 'requiring' Haste to be cast on me to have a decent attack rate.

My pally uses longswords. And to be honest, he feels incredibly weak when on Elite. If it wasn't for Smite Evil he'd have trouble defeating anything fast enough to conserve health. Unlike my monk that beats things down in 3 to 5 hits on Elite usually. More if I can't bypass the DR. But even if DR is affecting my damage, I'm still doing respectable damage. And that's before elemental strikes, crits, or stunning the enemy.

Modinator0

10-03-2010, 09:56 AM

And that's where their damage calculations fall apart in my opinion. Let's say the benchmark of a good damage build is using a 18-20/x2 weapon with burst effect. Burst adds what, 2d6 to a critical if the mod is x2? And let's go with a kopash since that's long been considered the best weapon. So 1d8+2d6 is the benchmark. Let's throw in power attack, the weapon being +5, and a strength of 20. End damage is 34-58 damage on a crit But base damage is 16-23 This is considered optimal right?

As a level 13 monk I can deal 2d6 base damage. I crit on a 20 without feats, true. But my standard damage with the same types of equipment would be 17-27. On a crit with the same burst type, I'd do 36-60. Correct? And then I can add in an elemental strike on top of that, doing at 13 either 1d6 or 2d10 damage extra depending on the elemental strike. My crit range isn't as high, but I can do comparable damage. Plus deal said damage faster then someone else could without haste. Even with haste applied to both, I'd be a bit faster.

Of course, DPS means squat in DDO. The nasty foes aren't going to just stand there and let you hit them. They move around, so you have to move around. The true test is burst damage usually. And even there, monks compare favorably. The elemental strikes can be fired off rapidly for burst damage spikes when needed.

EDIT: Of course, monk unarmed damage keeps going up. While the damage of a kopash for example stays pretty much the same.

khopesh is 19-20/x3, 17-20/x3 with keen/IC:slashing, 16-20/x3 for a kensei. That also means twice as much damage from a burst effect.
Or in the hands of a berserker, that becomes 17-20/x4 I believe. Thats now double the crit multiplier of monk unarmed, and triple damage from bursts, with double the threat range.
Plus greensteel weapons, which start to show up around your level, increases khopesh to 1d10.
Then if you're talking 2h weapons you get double power attack bonus to damage, and weapons like a greensteel greatsword or greataxe will provide a similar base damage profile to monk unarmed. greatswords have lower crit mult than khopesh and greataxes have lower threat range, but both weapons still have better crit profiles than unarmed.
And with higher crit multipliers and threat ranges, that means even more bang for your buck when you get higher strength. For khopesh on a kensei, we're talking two extra damage per 2 strength 25% of the time compared to the unarmed one extra damage per 2 strength 10% of the time.

an example...
say three lv 20 characters, all have 30 str, power attack, improved critical, +5 acid burst weapons, and for the sake of simplification no enhancements or seeker. We'll assume average roll on each damage die, rounded up.

first character is a monk with handwraps. 2d10 base damage, 19-20/x2.
12 damage +10 strength, +5 weapon, +5 power attack. 32 damage. 10% chance to make that 64dmg +6 acid, total 70 damage.
offhand damage is the same.

second character is using dual khopesh. 1d8 base damage, 17-20/x3.
5 damage + 10 strength +5 weapon +5 power attack. 25 damage. 20% chance to make that 75 damage +12 acid, total 87 damage.
offhand receives half strength mod, so 20 damage with 20% chance to make it 60.

third character is using a greataxe. 1d12 base damage, 19-20/x3
7 damage +10 strength +5 weapon +10 power attack. 32 damage. 10% chance to make that 96 damage +12 acid, total 108 damage.

Once you add in enhancements and seeker damage, and more strength, the difference becomes exponentially larger.

Finally, you have this baby that just completely screws the chart...
Its obviously a bit harder to get than the weapons we've been comparing, but I'll include it just for giggles.

sword of shadow, 2d6 base damage, 15-20/x3.
8 damage + 10 strength + 5 weapon + 10 power attack. 33 damage. 30% chance to make that 99 damage.
epic sword of shadow, 5d6 base damage, 15-20/x3.
20 damage + 10 strength + 10 weapon + 10 power attack. 50 damage. 30% chance to make that 150 damage.

again more str, enhancements, and seeker make that even more of a difference.

until you introduce sword of shadows or greensteel weapons monks generally have the highest base damage while having the lowest crit damage AND crit chance, but once powerful weapons enter the fray base damage evens out while crit damage continues to grow farther and farther above handwraps.
Different monk strikes, paladin smites, etc also play a major role in the dps a character does, but I don't have the numbers for those handy and its now morning so its time to quit this and go to sleep :p

Nevthial

10-03-2010, 11:15 AM

http://thumbnails.hulu.com/14/765/69839_512x288_generated__7jMvevtkOkKUY7mwTyYbpA.jp g

Dark Monk FTW Baby!!

Red_Knight

10-03-2010, 11:22 AM

I understand all that. And I think only looking at crit rating is rather dumb. Yes, a monk wont have as good of a crit rating, and will only do twice the damage on a crit. Assuming that an enemy can be affected by crits.

And looking just at crit range ignores base damage. No matter how high your crit range, a kopesh is still a 1d8 weapon. If your strength is 20 (reasonable if your not doing a max strength build or for leveling) and your running power attack, that means even with a crit you do 13-34 damage with a crit.

My level 13 monk with 18 strength does 16-26 damage on a normal hit when running power attack. If I crit that's 32-52 damage. And when I get to 20 I'll do 16-34 damage without a crit. It would take a strength score of 24 minimum on a crit to equal or beat a strength 18 monk's base damage. And if the enemy isn't susceptible to crits, the kopesh flat out can't come close without really high strength. And my monk started out with only 12 strength.

Even if your assuming it's a X Burst kopesh, with 20 stength and power attack it still does 15-54. Yes, that's more damage then a monk does at level 13 with 18 strength at base. Oh, wait. I forgot about elemental strikes that monks can get. Elec damage seems to be infrequently resisted. And I just so happen to have Greater Wind Stance. which does an extra 2d10 elec damage for seven ki. Which means it's spammable. Got greater water stance too, so a cold damage strike that does +2d10 damage as well. I can pull these off about as often as your kopesh user is expecting to crit.

So, how much damage could a someone do if they had 32 strength, used a bursting kopesh, and run power attack expect do do vs a monk with the same strength and bursting damage handwrap?

Base damage-Kopesh
16-23
Critical Damage-Kopesh
20-59

Base damage-level 20 monk (no elemental strikes)
17-35
Base Damage-level 20 monk (with greater elemental strike)
19-55
Critical Damage
34-70

Unless I've done my math wrong somehow, looks to me like monks manage to keep up with a kopesh damage wise despite having a lower crit rating and lower crit multiplier. And for comparison, what about a bastard sword with the same strength? Granted, the bastard sword wont crit as often. But then, disregarding it because of a lower crit range is something only a power gamer would do.

Base Damage-Bastard Sword
16-25
Critical
32-50

Power gamers are looking just at crit range and disregarding anything without 19-20 crit range. And touting the kopesh as the best weapon cause it also does x3 damage. But it's not that clear cut. A high base damage can make up for a lower crit rating. Just as a high crit rating can make up for low damage. And monks get one of the, if not the best base damage.