How will U7 affect THF DPS?

[mediocresurgeon]

This thread contains information that is inaccurate. It should no longer be used as a reference. If you are looking for semi-accurate DPS estimates for a barbarian, a better thread can be found here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=277424).



Glancing Blows no longer scale with Base Attack Bonus, and start at a base of 20% weapon damage.

Enhancements and feats that modify the Glancing Blow damage multiplier now function.

The Two Handed Fighting chain has been modified to add 10% to glancing blow weapon damage per tier, and the chance to produce special weapon effects has been increased to 3% per tier. They no longer grant to-hit bonuses for Glancing Blows.

The Barbarian capstone, “Might”, now correctly grants +10% glancing blow weapon damage and 5% chance to produce special weapon effects in addition to its +2 Strength bonus. (A half-orc or warforged barbarian with all three THF feats, Great Weapon Aptitude, and Might will have deal 60% weapon damage with their glancing blows, with a 20% chance to produce special weapon effects.)

The Frenzied Berserker and Great Weapon Aptitude enhancements now give full information on their effects on two handed combat.


“This is good news for THF, but I have some further questions. When THF was changed to not apply on attacks while moving, part of the reason for taking GTHF was removed, as the feat was applying glancing blows on mobile attacks. What’s being done in that regard?"

- No changes at this time.

"Also, are glancing blows triggering on ALL attacks now, or just on certain attacks in the chain? I’m assuming the former, but it would be good for this information to be explicitly stated."

- Same as before!

"Also, will effects such as the Frenzied Berserker’s vicious damage, paladin capstone and KotC damage all continue to apply to glancing blows 100% of the time, or will those be counted in the 20% chance for special effects?”

- Didn’t change this. They should be considered special effects, the 100% proc rate is considered a bug.

Summary:
Glancing Blows now deal 60% of the physical damage portion of your weapon if you are a THF-specialized barbarian, but the added vicious damage from Frenzy/Deathless Frenzy will only proc on 20% of your glancing blows. Glancing blows will continue to work on 3/4 on attacks while standing still, and not at all while moving.

This is different from how glancing blows currently work:
-Glancing blow physical damage equation is unknown; only way to figure it out is by using experimental data. Currently, it is less than 40% (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3195665#post3195665) of physical damage.
-Vicious damage from Frenzy/Deathless Frenzy proc on 100% of glancing blows
-Damage from special effects has such a small proc rate that the damage increase is virtually negligible

Implications:
Our physical glancing blow damage will increased, our Vicious damage will be reduced, and special weapon effects (like Holy and Slicing) will have a 20% proc rate on glancing blows.


How this affects our DPS:

Maximum sustainable strength: 64 (+27)
18 base
5 levels
4 tome
6 enhancement
1 exceptional
2 exceptional
2 capstone
2 Frenzied Berserker ToD set
12 barbarian rage
4 deathless frenzy
2 frenzy
2 rage spell
2 yugoloth potion
2 Madstone
Total Strength to Damage: +40

Other Damage Bonuses:
+22 Power Attack
+2 Frenzied Berserker Set
+2 Shintao Set
+9 Warchanter songs
+1 Prayer
+4d6 Deathless Frenzy
+2d6 Frenzy
Bloodstone (non-epic)
Total Static Damage: 4d6+2d6+76

Epic Sword of Shadows (http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5666/screenshot00047vu.jpg) (force damage ritual) vs no DR, 0% Fortification:
Average Damage Per Second: 463.661
Damage Change: +8.061 DPS (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3195665#post3195665)

Glancing Blows: (.75)*[(0.6)*(5d6+86) + (0.2)*(4d6+2d6+1)] = 49.875 damage per main swing
(2-14) Non-critical: 5d6+4d6+2d6+87 + glancing blow = 175.375 damage
(15-18) Critical: 15d6+4d6+2d6+259+18 + glancing blow = 400.375 damage
(19-20) Super-Critical: 30d6+4d6+2d6+517+36 + glancing blow = 728.875 damage
Average Damage Per Attack: 281.007
Attacks Per Minute: 99


Epic Sword of Shadows (http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5666/screenshot00047vu.jpg) (force damage ritual) vs 15 DR, 50% Fortification:
Average Damage Per Second: 333.202
Damage Change: +8.002 DPS (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3195665#post3195665)

Glancing Blows: (.75)*[(0.6)*(5d6+86) + (0.2)*(4d6+2d6+1) - 15] = 38.625 damage per main swing
(2-14) Non-critical: 5d6+4d6+2d6+87-15 + glancing blow = 149.125 damage
(15-18) Critical: 15d6+4d6+2d6+259+18-15 + glancing blow = 374.125 damage
(19-20) Super-Critical: 30d6+4d6+2d6+517+36-15 + glancing blow = 702.625 damage
Average Damage Per Attack: 201.941
Attacks Per Minute: 99

Mineral II Greataxe (http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5518/mineralii.jpg) (force damage ritual) vs Evil, Acid-Resistant, 0 DR, 50% Fortification:
Average Damage Per Second: 326.739
Damage Change: +11.639 DPS (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3195665#post3195665)

Glancing Blows: (.75)*[(0.6)*(5d6+81) + (0.2)*(4d6+2d6+1+2d6+1d4)] = 49.050 damage per main swing
(2-18) Non-critical: 3d6+2d6+1d4+4d6+2d6+82 + glancing blow = 172.050 damage
(19-20) Super-Critical: 18d6+2d6+1d4+4d6+2d6+487+36 + glancing blow = 665.550 damage
Average Damage Per Attack: 198.024
Attacks per Minute: 99


Conclusions:
-THF will receive a very slight (almost unnoticeable) bonus to DPS
-Barbarians will take slightly less vicious damage.
-Epic Sword of Shadows (http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5666/screenshot00047vu.jpg) still overtakes Mineral II Greataxe (http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5518/mineralii.jpg) for Pit Fiends and Cornugons ("Horned Devils").

[rimble]

maximum Sustainable Strength: 64 (+26)

+27

[mediocresurgeon]

+27

Thanks for the catch! +rep

EDIT:
All calculations are now accurate, including calculations on the linked pages.

[grodon9999]

You have Bard-song in that calc?

[mediocresurgeon]

+9 Warchanter songs



Yes.

[krud]

Glancing Blow damage? I thought all self-respecting THFs twitch. :p

[Sweyn]

"Also, will effects such as the Frenzied Berserker’s vicious damage, paladin capstone and KotC damage all continue to apply to glancing blows 100% of the time, or will those be counted in the 20% chance for special effects?”

- Didn’t change this. They should be considered special effects, the 100% proc rate is considered a bug.

The way I'm reading this is, is that the 100% proc rate is a bug, but it is not getting fixed next update.

[quityourjobs]

The way I'm reading this is, is that the 100% proc rate is a bug, but it is not getting fixed next update.

Exactly. Hopefully they'll find a way to balance DPS again once that change is made.

I'm guessing the proc rate on special effects may end up higher than we're seeing now.

[mediocresurgeon]

Glancing Blow damage? I thought all self-respecting THFs twitch. :p

Twitching lowers your DPS now, unless you are getting auto-criticals.

[quityourjobs]

Implications:
Our physical glancing blow damage will increased, our Vicious damage will be reduced, and special weapon effects (like Holy and Slicing) will have a 20% proc rate on glancing blows.

Eladrin's post about weapon effect proc rates overlooked the bonuses applied by the Frenzied Berzerker I,II, and III enhancements. Unless those bonuses are to be removed, we must think that they will add anywhere from 6-15% proc rate on top of that 20%, in line with feats and other enhancements.


Barbarian Frenzied Berserker I: Passive Benefit: you gain the effects of the diehard feat while raging. Your two-handed weapon glancing blows have an increased chance of applying magical weapon effects such as flaming. Active Benefit: expend 10 hp to frenzy.

Barbarian Frenzied Berserker II: Passive Benefit: critical multiplier of all weapons is increased by 1 on natural 19 or 20 while raging. Your two-handed weapon glancing blows get an increased chance of applying magical weapon effects. Active Benefit: expend 10 hp to Supreme Cleave.

Barbarian Frenzied Berserker III: Passive Benefit: critical multiplier of all weapons is increased by an additional 1 on natural 19 or 20 while raging. Your two-handed weapon glancing blows get an additional increase chance of applying magical weapon effects. Active Benefit: expend 20 hp to Death Frenzy.

[mediocresurgeon]

The way I'm reading this is, is that the 100% proc rate is a bug, but it is not getting fixed next update.


Eladrin's post about weapon effect proc rates overlooked the bonuses applied by the Frenzied Berzerker I,II, and III enhancements. Unless those bonuses are to be removed, we must think that they will add anywhere from 6-15% proc rate on top of that 20%, in line with feats and other enhancements.

Those are good points. I guess what I posted was a worst-case scenario--and even then, barbarians stand to benefit.

[Cetus]

Those are good points. I guess what I posted was a worst-case scenario--and even then, barbarians stand to benefit.

Kensai 1 and 2 also increase the effectiveness of glancing blows and special effects, I'd like figures for the fighter analog as well.

[Khanyth]

An update where barbs benefit....

unpossible!

[ColinQ]

Based on current math, what would be the tipping point point where eSOS out DPS Min2 GA on harry? +2 from Vul Might set? (+4 epic set)? 2 dmg airship buff? 4 more str somewhere from LotD/red helm/airship buff


What about Min2 Falcion/Lit2 GA/Lit2 Falcion?


Why would Min2 gain more DPS than eSOS on Harry/Sully/Horoth as it would gain less from glacing blow due to lower base damage?


Whats the dps change for average shroud puggers with min2 GA and 18+5lv+6item+2 tome + 2 capstone + 12 rage + 6 frnzy + 2 rage + 1 airship = 56STR without bard/TOD/force ritual set?




Maximum sustainable strength: 64 (+27)
18 base
5 levels
4 tome
6 enhancement
1 exceptional
2 exceptional
2 capstone
12 barbarian rage
4 deathless frenzy
2 frenzy
2 rage spell
2 yugoloth potion
2 Madstone
Total Strength to Damage: +40

Other Damage Bonuses:
+22 Power Attack
+2 Frenzied Berserker Set
+2 Shintao Set
+9 Warchanter songs
+1 Prayer
+4d6 Deathless Frenzy
+2d6 Frenzy
Bloodstone (non-epic)


I see FB set bonus to dmg but not to STR

[mediocresurgeon]

Why would Min2 gain more DPS than eSOS on Harry/Sully/Horoth as it would gain less from glacing blow due to lower base damage?

Mineral II has a substantial chance to proc Holy and Slicing on glancing blows now, whereas the eSOS doesn't have any special effects like that. I'll get back to your other questions when I'm not in the Shroud :)


I see FB set bonus to dmg but not to STR

The total was correct; I just forgot to write it in the list (it's in there now). +rep for the catch!

[ColinQ]

Mineral II has a substantial chance to proc Holy and Slicing on glancing blows now, whereas the eSOS doesn't have any special effects like that. I'll get back to your other questions when I'm not in the Shroud :)


Min 2 glancing went up by 8.6dmg/swing
eSOS glancing went up by 2.175
holy / slicing should only account for (2d6+1d4)*.75*.2=1.425 dmg increase






New eSOS
Glancing Blows: (.75)*(0.6)*(5d6+86) + (0.2)*(4d6+2d6+1) - 15 = 35.975 damage per main swing

Should be (.75)*((0.6)*(5d6+86) + (0.2)*(4d6+2d6+1) – 15)
Ie. Only .75*.2 chance of magical effect, and DR only apply when glancing blow procs



ALSO


New Min2 GA
Glancing Blows: (.75)*(0.6)*(5d6+81) + (0.2)*(4d6+2d6+1+2d6+1d4) = 50.625 damage per main swing


Like wise (.75)*((0.6)*(5d6+81) + (0.2)*(4d6+2d6+1+2d6+1d4))
Ie. Only .75*.2 chance of magical effect


On a side note
Weapon Aptitude would provide 2% chance per tier (20% max – 5% cap – 9% THF feats)/3
6AP point for extra (2d6+1d4)*.75*.06 = 0.4 dmg per hit seems marginable

[lord_of_rage]

Summary:
Glancing Blows now deal 60% of the physical damage portion of your weapon if you are a THF-specialized barbarian, but the added vicious damage from Frenzy/Deathless Frenzy will only proc on 20% of your glancing blows. Glancing blows will continue to work on 3/4 on attacks while standing still, and not at all while moving.

This is different from how glancing blows currently work:
-Glancing blow physical damage equation is unknown; only way to figure it out is by using experimental data. Currently, it is less than 40% (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3195665#post3195665) of physical damage.
-Vicious damage from Frenzy/Deathless Frenzy proc on 100% of glancing blows
-Damage from special effects has such a small proc rate that the damage increase is virtually negligible

Implications:
Our physical glancing blow damage will increased, our Vicious damage will be reduced, and special weapon effects (like Holy and Slicing) will have a 20% proc rate on glancing blows.


How this affects our DPS:

Maximum sustainable strength: 64 (+27)
18 base
5 levels
4 tome
6 enhancement
1 exceptional
2 exceptional
2 capstone
2 Frenzied Berserker ToD set
12 barbarian rage
4 deathless frenzy
2 frenzy
2 rage spell
2 yugoloth potion
2 Madstone
Total Strength to Damage: +40

Other Damage Bonuses:
+22 Power Attack
+2 Frenzied Berserker Set
+2 Shintao Set
+9 Warchanter songs
+1 Prayer
+4d6 Deathless Frenzy
+2d6 Frenzy
Bloodstone (non-epic)
Total Static Damage: 4d6+2d6+76

Epic Sword of Shadows (force damage ritual) vs no DR, 0% Fortification:
Average Damage Per Second: 465.476
Damage Change: +9.9 DPS (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3195665#post3195665)



Epic Sword of Shadows (force damage ritual) vs 15 DR, 50% Fortification:
Average Damage Per Second: 328.830
Damage Change: +3.6 DPS (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3195665#post3195665)


Mineral II Greataxe (force damage ritual) vs Evil, Acid-Resistant, 0 DR, 50% Fortification:
Average Damage Per Second: 329.338
Damage Change: +14.2 DPS (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3195665#post3195665)



Conclusions:
-THF will receive a very slight (almost unnoticeable) bonus to DPS
-Barbarians will take slightly less vicious damage.
-Mineral II Greataxes now out-DPS eSOS versus Arratraekos, Suulomades, and Horoth (previously this was only the case if you were missing +2 strength somewhere, Prayer, or full Warchanter songs)

Not sure why the Eantique greataxe isnt in these calcs.

[Vanshilar]

Eh just a quick note here, the glancing blow damage formula is pretty much known (except for one part). It is:

(damage + THF feats) * BAB multiplier

damage = non-crit damage, i.e. weapon dice + enhancement + str modifier (1.5x since THF) + power attack (2x since THF) etc., basically the damage your main hit does on a non-crit, not including magical effects nor sneak
THF feats = 10 * number of THF feats. Note that some people say that it's 10 for THF, 30 (total) for ITHF, and 30 (total) for GTHF, i.e. GTHF just adds an extra glancing blow on the 3rd animation but doesn't increase the glancing blow damage, while ITHF gives a lot more damage. I keep meaning to level a trash char up to 8 to test this, but never get around to doing so, but this is the only point of contention. If the character has GTHF though it's 30 for sure, what's not known is whether it's 20 or 30 total for ITHF. Again, I've heard people say both, but haven't tested this myself. I have tested that THF is 10 and GTHF is 30 though. Note that currently, the barbarian capstone doesn't affect this, even though it's supposed to.
BAB multiplier = 0.20 for BAB 1-10, 0.25 for BAB 11-15, 0.30 for BAB 16-20. I tested this before. This is affected by that divine power spell thingy by the way (i.e. if you're BAB 13 and you click the clickie and become BAB 16, the glancing blow damage will increase because the multiplier increases). Note that the multiplier is *0.3 not /3.

The biggest thing hinges on whether or not they remove the 100% proc on frenzy/death frenzy and KotC. If they do, then I don't think THF barbarians are necessarily in any better shape than before U7, and THF paladins will become even weaker (as if they're not already weak enough as it is). Hence why they may or may not change it for U7, I'm sure in their internal calculations they know that it'd be a pretty substantial nerf for THF if they remove them.

[Cetus]

Eh just a quick note here, the glancing blow damage formula is pretty much known (except for one part). It is:

(damage + THF feats) * BAB multiplier

damage = non-crit damage, i.e. weapon dice + enhancement + str modifier (1.5x since THF) + power attack (2x since THF) etc., basically the damage your main hit does on a non-crit, not including magical effects nor sneak
THF feats = 10 * number of THF feats. Note that some people say that it's 10 for THF, 30 (total) for ITHF, and 30 (total) for GTHF, i.e. GTHF just adds an extra glancing blow on the 3rd animation but doesn't increase the glancing blow damage, while ITHF gives a lot more damage. I keep meaning to level a trash char up to 8 to test this, but never get around to doing so, but this is the only point of contention. If the character has GTHF though it's 30 for sure, what's not known is whether it's 20 or 30 total for ITHF. Again, I've heard people say both, but haven't tested this myself. I have tested that THF is 10 and GTHF is 30 though. Note that currently, the barbarian capstone doesn't affect this, even though it's supposed to.
BAB multiplier = 0.20 for BAB 1-10, 0.25 for BAB 11-15, 0.30 for BAB 16-20. I tested this before. This is affected by that divine power spell thingy by the way (i.e. if you're BAB 13 and you click the clickie and become BAB 16, the glancing blow damage will increase because the multiplier increases). Note that the multiplier is *0.3 not /3.

The biggest thing hinges on whether or not they remove the 100% proc on frenzy/death frenzy and KotC. If they do, then I don't think THF barbarians are necessarily in any better shape than before U7, and THF paladins will become even weaker (as if they're not already weak enough as it is). Hence why they may or may not change it for U7, I'm sure in their internal calculations they know that it'd be a pretty substantial nerf for THF if they remove them.

Frenzy damage is vicious damage. Vicious is a magical effect. The fact that it procs 100% of the time is obviously a bug. Frenzy damage is no different than a randomly generated GA with vicious on it.

[justagame]

If they're going to remove it for KOTC pally's might as well make it simple, and prohibit THF for any class but fighters and barbs. Pally THF is already a bit gimped from recent changes -- the only thing left for it is the kotc and capstone damage on glancing blows. Without that, and no big STR bonus like fighters and barbs, there is no sense whatsoever in it.

Some might say "there shouldn't be any THF pally's anyway", but I strongly disagree.

The more changes and nerfs narrow the options for solid builds, the more I think it weakens the game. We're already pretty close to that right now in many cases. Right now TWF paladin (gutted as it is), is clearly superior to THF paladin, a THF can still put out respectable dps against the right foes. This will mean that the ONLY dps option for a pally is TWF. Anyone think that adds flavor to the game? It's already close to the point where high level quests are a swarm of dual-wielding min2 khopesh users and fire-specced casters.

IMO, anything that furthers the gap between the best build for a class and all other options really hurts the game.

[krud]

Twitching lowers your DPS now, unless you are getting auto-criticals.
Is it really true?

ding dong the twitch is dead...

[Midgavia]

Should i stay pure or go 18/2 now when capstone is fixed?

[mediocresurgeon]

Should i stay pure or go 18/2 now when capstone is fixed?

I would make your builds based on what is currently viable, and use Reincarnations to adjust.

[Monkey_Archer]

Glancing Blows: (.75)*(0.6)*(5d6+86) + (0.2)*(4d6+2d6+1) = 50.975 damage per main swing

The effects portion of glancing blows should also be multiplied by the 0.75 glancing blow rate.

Also to note: a significant portion of the dps gain shown in these calcs (especially for the min 2) is from the fixed barbarian capstone and not just the THF change. If you subtract the capstone bonus (or add a working capstone to the old glancing blow system) you get a net dps loss from the THF change alone.

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Am I the only one who notice the new THF animations in the half-orc showcase video?

Bottom line, half-orcs and maybe all races have a new animation for thf, which probably can't be twitched. Now, this is the real THF change. It might be incredibly fast and thus make barbarians standing still the best dps, or it can be twitched even easier, making fighters the best. Or it's just the same twitch speed like now (twitch for ~+20% speed), which means nothing will really change.

[mediocresurgeon]

Not sure why the antique greataxe isn't in these calcs.
I rarely see players on my server using the Epic Antique Greataxe (http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/1449/epicantiquegreataxe.jpg) and assumed that was the case for other servers as well, so I didn't bother. If there is a strong interest (shown through comments on this thread) I will calculate eAG stats.


Should be (.75)*((0.6)*(5d6+86) + (0.2)*(4d6+2d6+1) – 15)
Ie. Only .75*.2 chance of magical effect, and DR only apply when glancing blow procs

ALSO


Like wise (.75)*((0.6)*(5d6+81) + (0.2)*(4d6+2d6+1+2d6+1d4))
Ie. Only .75*.2 chance of magical effect

The effects portion of glancing blows should also be multiplied by the 0.75 glancing blow rate.
Fixed, and recalculated. Thanks and +rep!

eSOS (http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5666/screenshot00047vu.jpg) has now pulled ahead of Mineral II greataxe (http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5518/mineralii.jpg) (again). Just make sure you have your strength maxed, full bard songs, and Prayer or the MinII will still be better.


Am I the only one who notice the new THF animations in the half-orc showcase video?
Link please? I'd like to see how many swings per minute they get while hasted.

[Vanshilar]

By the way vicious self-damage shouldn't change. Currently, the barbarian takes vicious self-damage from frenzy and death frenzy only on glancing blows that proc magical effects (and the main hit of course), not all glancing blows, even though they do vicious damage to targets on all glancing blows. Presumably the self-damage part will stay the same, regardless of if they change the frenzy/death frenzy damage to tagets, since this portion of it is working as intended (i.e. on procs).

[Absolute-Omniscience]

Link please? I'd like to see how many swings per minute they get while hasted.

Can't remember where I saw it, it was in the video with Fer-whatshisname, when he gave a glance on the new raid, and half-orc / half-elf.

Bottom line, when he was swinging at the boss (and other stuff) you could clearly see a new attack animation for the thf Ga he was using (completely different).
Now the questions are:
Is it faster?
Is it twitchable?
Is it THF only?
Is it GA only?
Is it half-orc only?

[Hanam]

Can't remember where I saw it, it was in the video with Fer-whatshisname, when he gave a glance on the new raid, and half-orc / half-elf.

Bottom line, when he was swinging at the boss (and other stuff) you could clearly see a new attack animation for the thf Ga he was using (completely different).
Now the questions are:
Is it faster?
Is it twitchable?
Is it THF only?
Is it GA only?
Is it half-orc only?

Yes, I too noticed the attack animations. From what I saw, it looks like the Half-Orc THF animation uses a "hilt strike" as the first swing.

*edit* If a Dev could shed some light on the new animations, that would be great.

I also thought it may be a universal change, but we shall see I guess.

[mediocresurgeon]

Fernando Paiz confirmed via live interview on DDOCast that half orcs have a unique THF swing animation.

Is it faster? Is it slower? The world may never know, until we see a video. Anyone have a link?

[Boromirs]

Wow, whats the point of min2's now? The devs seem to be saying if you're a barb the ONLY weapon you need is eSoS.

[grodon9999]

Wow, whats the point of min2's now? The devs seem to be saying if you're a barb the ONLY weapon you need is eSoS.

You gonna play raids on anything harder than Normal?

[Boromirs]

You gonna play raids on anything harder than Normal?

Argument is moot I think even in those aspects.

Most people raid harry on normal (almost always normal). And ToD, well sure you can do it on something harder but again probably the majority raid it on normal. Further, really the difference even with higher fort is minute that I would probably still keep using eSoS for higher DR. What is it? Like 5-10pts more dps if you switch to min2's on anything higher then normal?

For Epic, eSoS is probably far far more useful especially on trash. That sword for the amount of work it takes versus the benefit is too powerful. They should increase the base damage even more and make it a +12 weapon but double the requirements for ingredients with the last ingredient being droppable only once per week.

[grodon9999]

Argument is moot I think even in those aspects.

Most people raid harry on normal (almost always normal). And ToD, well sure you can do it on something harder but again probably the majority raid it on normal. Further, really the difference even with higher fort is minute that I would probably still keep using eSoS for higher DR. What is it? Like 5-10pts more dps if you switch to min2's on anything higher then normal?

For Epic, eSoS is probably far far more useful especially on trash. That sword for the amount of work it takes versus the benefit is too powerful. They should increase the base damage even more and make it a +12 weapon but double the requirements for ingredients with the last ingredient being droppable only once per week.

Shroud yes, there is NO reason to run that other than normal except once in a while for favor and an adreneline rush.

VoD should be run on Hard at all times if the group is competent capped-toons. It's is factory-outlet of +3 tomes lately.

ToD is about to get the Sulu Chest fixed on hard/Elite and it drops +4 tomes with allegedly better chances on hard/elite. Right now we mostly do normal runs killing Sulu, that'll change to hard once that gets fixed.

Besides, Minerall II is so 2008, all the cool kids have Epice Antique Great-axes now anyway.

If you're losing 15 points a swing you'll be out-DPSd by a Ranger/fighter/monk who breaks DR. What self-respecting barb will allow that to happen? :)

[LookingForABentoBox]

ATM Divine Might (p. sure) KoTC and the paladin capstone all work 100% on glancing blows, anyone know if this will change? What about the ToD ring sets? I've only tried the tempest 1d4 slicing damage (it says slashing but it's slicing) and that works 100% on glancing blows also.

[Boromirs]

Epic Antique Greataxes... no need for Min2 Greataxes then? Would it better to replace min2 greataxe with a min2 maul? For Black abbot raid?

[BlackSteel]

Epic Antique Greataxes... no need for Min2 Greataxes then? Would it better to replace min2 greataxe with a min2 maul? For Black abbot raid?

yeh a min 2 maul works on the abbott, but if you just want a lich beater theres far better GS you could craft. (or pick up a holy/greater bane)

[Boromirs]

So then what is the absolute best greensteel one can craft if not a min2 greataxe, and I just looked at the stats for Epic Antique greataxe, I don't think this outdoes a min2 greataxe especially against higher DR bosses... or am I wrong and the numbers have already been done out?

[PopeJual]

yeh a min 2 maul works on the abbott, but if you just want a lich beater theres far better GS you could craft. (or pick up a holy/greater bane)

Since making a GS item isn't that hard, the only significant costs to a GS item are the small shards and the large ingredients. If you happen to get an extra small shard and don't feel like using up extra larges, then a Holy/Good Burst Maul would be very nice for both the Raise Dead clicky and as a skelly/lich beater.

[supp3nhuhn]

To me that looks like a nerf to not optimally geared and teamed thfer, only the really high end get a boost from that change, the others are sol. :/

[Xeraphim]

DDO Store STR pot(stacks with yugo pot too). 66 STR.

[BlackSteel]

To me that looks like a nerf to not optimally geared and teamed thfer, only the really high end get a boost from that change, the others are sol. :/

anyone can craft a min 2, unless you're a F2P w/o the vale. and then you dont really have any reason to complain.

[supp3nhuhn]

anyone can craft a min 2, unless you're a F2P w/o the vale. and then you dont really have any reason to complain.

This has nothing to do with being f2p and being able to craft min 2 weapons.

You loose 19 dps just from your vicious not proccing on every glancing blow, you have to make up for that with weapon effects and high base damage.

If you use esos and are not a warforged, soloing will be enough to lower your dps compared to as is in the same situation.

You can't balance everything around people that basically have won the game years ago, not every barb has a +4 tome, not every barb has a fb and a shintao set, not every barb is warforged and so on; the majority of barbs will loose dps.

[Boromirs]

Just curious and a wrapup WILL WE or WILL WE NOT do MORE damage by twitching rather then getting the full line of THF?

[Shamurai]

Admitedly I get lost in all these Min/ Max calcs of DPS I have none of the uber epic stuff.. but what I read that I didn't realize was possible (first page) it sayd force ritual on his Min II axe.. can we do those rituals on Greensteels? and if so.. which really is the better one.. the ON crit.. or the standard +1 Dam?

[Hokonoso]

better question, add lit 2 falchion to the dps calcs at a 5% proc rate (be generous) to see what lesser geared ppl might be getting. even lower the str down to say 56 etc...

i also see no reason to make a min 2 gaxe, i made a maul cause it makes sense, dr beater and lich/skeleton beater all in one weapon, saves on larges for a very small loss in dps, get esos and aGA for the other stuff. i still like lit 2s tho, the random procs are fun and pull aggro even on hard difficulty.

[mediocresurgeon]

The speculative DPS calculations I posted in the OP are irrelivent, because glancing blows still proc Vicious 100% of the time.

Here are some updated DPS estimates and comparisons for U7 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=277424), but they only apply to very well-geared half-orc barbarians.



force ritual on his Min II axe.. can we do those rituals on Greensteels? and if so.. which really is the better one.. the ON crit.. or the standard +1 Dam?
Yes, you can put the force damage/force critical rituals on ANY weapon, even raid loot and green steel. If you want higher autocritical damage for epic, use Force Critical. If you want overall better DPS, use Force Damage. (My preference is Force Damage.)


better question, add lit 2 falchion to the dps calcs at a 5% proc rate (be generous) to see what lesser geared ppl might be getting. even lower the str down to say 56 etc...
5% proc rate is waaaaaay too high. Probably three times as high as at actually is, though there is no way to say for sure. I don't do DPS calculations for Lightning II weapons because even a small adjustment in proc rate changes the average DPS of the weapon too dramatically to give a useful estimate. And 56 strength is unrealistically small for a barbarian, especially a barbarian wielding an eSOS.


i also see no reason to make a min 2 gaxe, i made a maul cause it makes sense, dr beater and lich/skeleton beater all in one weapon, saves on larges for a very small loss in dps,
Or use x2 Pos Maul for an undead beater (it can do better DPS than a Min II GAxe versus undead), since x2 pos costs no larges. Min II greataxes do the best DPS versus raid bosses UNLESS you have full warchanter songs, Prayer, and 68 strength (in which case the falchion pulls ahead slightly). Don't quote me on the 68 strength though, because I'm too lazy right now to go find the breakingpoint between MinII GAxe and MinII Falchion.

[Boromirs]

The speculative DPS calculations I posted in the OP are irrelivent, because glancing blows still proc Vicious 100% of the time.

Here are some updated DPS estimates and comparisons for U7 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=277424), but they only apply to very well-geared half-orc barbarians.



Yes, you can put the force damage/force critical rituals on ANY weapon, even raid loot and green steel. If you want higher autocritical damage for epic, use Force Critical. If you want overall better DPS, use Force Damage. (My preference is Force Damage.)


5% proc rate is waaaaaay too high. Probably three times as high as at actually is, though there is no way to say for sure. I don't do DPS calculations for Lightning II weapons because even a small adjustment in proc rate changes the average DPS of the weapon too dramatically to give a useful estimate. And 56 strength is unrealistically small for a barbarian, especially a barbarian wielding an eSOS.


Or use x2 Pos Maul for an undead beater (it can do better DPS than a Min II GAxe versus undead), since x2 pos costs no larges. Min II greataxes do the best DPS versus raid bosses UNLESS you have full warchanter songs, Prayer, and 68 strength (in which case the falchion pulls ahead slightly). Don't quote me on the 68 strength though, because I'm too lazy right now to go find the breakingpoint between MinII GAxe and MinII Falchion.

Soo... get all THF lines? For twitching is now officially dead?

[mediocresurgeon]

Soo... get all THF lines? For twitching is now officially dead?

Get the THF lines, but know how to twitch for (a) autocrit situations and (b) when you are chasing after opponents. If you find that all you do is hit helpless epic mobs or chase after opponents, drop the THF feats and just twitch all the time.

[domecek1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AgrNQ0hND0 - twitching barb orc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFTN7L5kDnc - nontwitching


i think, this guy has good twich skill, so you can rly easily compare, that twiching is better again:D

[mediocresurgeon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AgrNQ0hND0 - twitching barb orc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFTN7L5kDnc - nontwitching


i think, this guy has good twich skill, so you can rly easily compare, that twiching is better again:D

Impressive twitch skills!

His non-twitch attack chain with the greataxe is missing an attack from the full animation, though.

Half orcs have a completely different animation depending on whether you use a greatsword or greataxe. Any idea if there is a way to twitch with a greatsword?

[domecek1]

Impressive twitch skills!

His non-twitch attack chain with the greataxe is missing an attack from the full animation, though.

Half orcs have a completely different animation depending on whether you use a greatsword or greataxe. Any idea if there is a way to twitch with a greatsword?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tzSkGItFUQ - gs twich

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b9PpdTO2Xo&feature=related - non

[mediocresurgeon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tzSkGItFUQ - gs twich

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b9PpdTO2Xo&feature=related - non

Thanks!

[domecek1]

But I dont know, guys... Yep twitching probably does more dmg to a single target, but with two and more targets around? This game is not only boss fights :/ Have a dilema with my thf bard now if TR into bard with full thf chain or without and take something else...:P

[Vanshilar]

His non-twitch attack chain with the greataxe is missing an attack from the full animation, though.

Actually, the full animation is there -- the 1st animation is the "pommel" with the weapon that you see before the 2nd animation. When you see the upper right to lower left diagonal swing, that's actually the 2nd animation; the 1st animation is just before that.

[Boromirs]

So,basically the rundown is this.

[Trash (especially multiple trash)]

-You will do more damage by standing still and getting off glancing blows.

[Boss]

-You will do more damage by twitching.

[mediocresurgeon]

So,basically the rundown is this.

[Trash (especially multiple trash)]

-You will do more damage by standing still and getting off glancing blows.

[Boss]

-You will do more damage by twitching.

I think you have it backwards.

Since monsters remain fully functional until completely destroyed, it's far better to use twitch against autocrit monsters and not steal aggro from your kiter by dishing out glancing blow damage. (This results in less damage received by the party, quicker single-target DPS*, and a smoother run.) Against bosses and named, you want glancing blows in order to up your non-autocrit DPS and take it out faster**.

If you aren't on Epic difficulty tho, none of this really matters... you'll kill things either way, and probably have resources to spare.

*Twitching gives faster critical hits per second against Held/Stoned/Stunned/Earthgrabbed mobs, which is usually more added DPS than glancing blows.
**If you're attacking a named opponent that moves around a lot (most of them!) you're not going to be getting glancing blows anyway, so go ahead and twitch until your party has them boxed in. Just don't move around so much as to make this task difficult or time-consuming.

[Wraith_Sarevok]

These numbers are slightly off.

Barbarian Frenzied Berserker III enhancement gives an additional 6% chance to apply magical weapon effects to glancing blows (2% for each rank). This is not taken into account on the front page.

Glancing Blows should deal 60% of total static weapon damage with a 26% chance to apply magical weapon effect damage. This is assuming you are a Half-Orc or Warforged Barbarian with Frenzied Berserker III, Might, Greater Two-Handed Fighting, and Great Weapon Aptitude III.

Also, from what I can gather from the very last interview quote, they have not yet changed the "vicious damage applying on glancing blows" bug with this update. Thus, vicious damage should still be applying on all glancing blow hits after Update 7. I don't care to go through leveling up a barbarian to find out. If someone else from Lamannia can confirm this, it would be nice.

All of this information has been personally verified unless there is some not-obvious bug that I am unaware of.

[Hokonoso]

Or use x2 Pos Maul for an undead beater (it can do better DPS than a Min II GAxe versus undead), since x2 pos costs no larges. Min II greataxes do the best DPS versus raid bosses UNLESS you have full warchanter songs, Prayer, and 68 strength (in which case the falchion pulls ahead slightly). Don't quote me on the 68 strength though, because I'm too lazy right now to go find the breakingpoint between MinII GAxe and MinII Falchion.

making an x2 pos maul for undead and a min 2 gaxe for bosses vs making a min 2 maul and no gaxe at all is the issue. sure if you have more small shards and gs blanks that idea makes sense, but if you dont wanna farm more gs mats the min 2 maul makes the most since imo. i also perfer lit 2 falchion for bosses on everything but elite cause even on hard ive pulled off other barbs using min 2 in tod part 2. tho i cant say anything now since i switched to twf so dunno what the new changes really bring to the table, now i just afk and auto atk and profit :D

no idea on the proc'rate on lit 2 but i do know it can go off many times in a row and ruin your tanks day! sure it may not be reliable for tanking but it sure is for dps.

[chloe5819]

I'm not sure if this was mentioned or not but having a jorgundals collar along with haste will increase the DPS just dont know what the number crunches out to be.

[PopeJual]

I'm not sure if this was mentioned or not but having a jorgundals collar along with haste will increase the DPS just dont know what the number crunches out to be.

Is this new in U7? Because Jorgundal's Collar does nto stack with Haste as far as I know in current game functionality.

[Perspicacity]

Wow, whats the point of min2's now? The devs seem to be saying if you're a barb the ONLY weapon you need is eSoS.
Min II GA will always have a use, you need it to get ESoS. Can't run an epic raid unarmed. :p

[mediocresurgeon]

I hadn't realized people were still using this thread as a reference. I wrote this before U7 Llamaland went live and my calculations were based on assumptions that were later shown to be inaccurate. (I've updated the OP to reflect this.)
If you are looking for DPS estimates, this thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=277424) can give you a better idea of what you might be able to expect.

Is this new in U7? Because Jorgundal's Collar does nto stack with Haste as far as I know in current game functionality.
The most recent testing (U5) I have done with Jorg's Collar indicates that it does not stack with Haste or Madstone (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=255542). I haven't tested it since U5 but I have serious doubts that anything has changed regarding alacrity since then.