Noob monk question: More damage on Shortswords or Fists?

[Marmaduke]

Which one of these has better damage? How big is the disparity? Do all monk attacks/enhancements work with shortswords?

[Dan_Innella]

If you're going full monk, fists, fists and more fists.

The shortsword enhancement on a 20 Monk is useless.

[Marmaduke]

Alright, thanks. One other quick question - what abilities use the Wisdom modifier aside from Stunning Fist?

[RhapsodieInBlue]

The shortsword enhancement on a 20 Monk is useless.

Not exactly

I banish and smite twice as effectively on my 20 monk as I do with fists.

[SINIBYTE]

I dual wield Treasons and DPS the end boss in Weapons shipment... ;)

[Greyweasel]

Which one of these has better damage? How big is the disparity? Do all monk attacks/enhancements work with shortswords?

After lvl 12 for a Ninja Spy you *do* want to use short swords for banishing, smiting, enfeebling, etc. weapons : those that rely on a crit to happen because you'll crit on 17-18-19-20 with Short swords whereas it will be 20 with wraps or 19-20 with a feat.

For everything else yes you will prefer handwraps.

Touch of death and stunning fists don't work with short swords, the special element attacks and the finishers however do.

[steloro]

if you want to critic...first stun and after banish,,,,simple

[Jamma]

After lvl 12 for a Ninja Spy you *do* want to use short swords for banishing, smiting, enfeebling, etc. weapons : those that rely on a crit to happen because you'll crit on 17-18-19-20 with Short swords whereas it will be 20 with wraps or 19-20 with a feat.

For everything else yes you will prefer handwraps.

Touch of death and stunning fists don't work with short swords, the special element attacks and the finishers however do.


It will be 19-20 with these shortswords unless you feat IC: piercing, as well. On a normal build SS's and handwraps will be the same (19-20) since everyone takes IC:bludgeoning, but you'll get 10% more chances with the handwraps. If you burn an extra feat on IC:piercing, then the broader crit range would tilt the effect chance well in favor of short swords. You might also be lucky enough to get a a pair of keen smiting shortswords.

[Dandonk]

It will be 19-20 with these shortswords unless you feat IC: piercing, as well. On a normal build SS's and handwraps will be the same (19-20) since everyone takes IC:bludgeoning, but you'll get 10% more chances with the handwraps. If you burn an extra feat on IC:piercing, then the broader crit range would tilt the effect chance well in favor of short swords. You might also be lucky enough to get a a pair of keen smiting shortswords.

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Enhancement:Monk_Ninja_Spy_II

Ninja Spy II grants Improved Critical feat with short swords.

[t0r012]

19-20 with wraps is 10% crit with 10% extra rolls

ic shortsword (from Ic pierce or ninjaII) is 20% crit

to me its a wash with a slight tilt to wraps since you need a pair of SS to get the full beny and they are still only 1d6 when you aren't rolling a crit smiting or banishing where wraps are 2d10.

[unbongwah]

what abilities use the Wisdom modifier aside from Stunning Fist?
IIRC, all of the basic & dark path finishers plus Quivering Palm; Void Strike and self-buffing abilities like Shadow Fade do not.

[bandyman1]

The shortsword enhancement on a 20 Monk is useless.

Not exactly

I banish and smite twice as effectively on my 20 monk as I do with fists.


Umm....who's using banishers and smiters at level 20???

[Dartwick]

19-20 with wraps is 10% crit with 10% extra rolls

ic shortsword (from Ic pierce or ninjaII) is 20% crit

to me its a wash with a slight tilt to wraps since you need a pair of SS to get the full beny and they are still only 1d6 when you aren't rolling a crit smiting or banishing where wraps are 2d10.


Its only a wash if you dont believe in math.

[RhapsodieInBlue]

20% crit when loot whoring in the vale kills a lot faster than my fists do, even if they are 2d10 + shocking burst + pure good + power attack on as I won't miss besides a 1 with it on.

Trust me, try it sometime.

[jmonty]

20% crit when loot whoring in the vale kills a lot faster than my fists do, even if they are 2d10 + shocking burst + pure good + power attack on as I won't miss besides a 1 with it on.

Trust me, try it sometime.

quivering palm, stunning fists. ;)

[Krag]

20% crit when loot whoring in the vale kills a lot faster than my fists do, even if they are 2d10 + shocking burst + pure good + power attack on as I won't miss besides a 1 with it on.

Trust me, try it sometime.

Or just invite caster and pike at the entrance. It's not like a monk can make any difference :p

[t0r012]

Its only a wash if you dont believe in math.

yep flubbed that one pretty good didn't I?

in reality 18-20 on a d20 is 3 or 15% crit chance
so on say in a given time frame there are 100 attacks w/ SS so 15 chances

so with fist giving 10% more (actually more like 12% but lets use the 10)
so that is a base 10% crit chance but it would be in the same time it would be 110 attacks. so it would be (100 * 1.1) * .1 so 11 chances in the same time.
======================

still though losing ToD, QP and SF plus having to actually get a second banishing/smiting SS to me still weighs in favor of wraps.

[Vengenance]

if you want to critic...first stun and after banish,,,,simple

What he said; I just stun then banish. This conversation should really only be about mobs that can't be stunned like Golems. With them you just pound, pound, TOD move to next target.

[Taimasan]

What he said; I just stun then banish. This conversation should really only be about mobs that can't be stunned like Golems. With them you just pound, pound, TOD move to next target.

Void Strike II ftw for stunning elementals and undead =)

[bandyman1]

20% crit when loot whoring in the vale kills a lot faster than my fists do, even if they are 2d10 + shocking burst + pure good + power attack on as I won't miss besides a 1 with it on.

Trust me, try it sometime.

Loot-whoring in the vale???

Ahh. So you find them more effective when running level 14-16 content on your level 20. Gottcha ;)

[Persnoody]

As a pure 20 monk, you should just about always be using wraps, the only time I use any other weapon type is vorp with kamas and wop with short swords. Oh, and there should be no monk with IC bludgeon, since stunning fist is an auto crit.

Also a bit of advice, if you missed last rasta ice games, next time it comes around you should put icy burst on all of your wraps, the extra 1d6 is totally worth it, sure devils and some other mobs are resistant to it, but the extra 1d6 doesn't hurt.

my biggest dmg output wraps: +1 acid wraps of stun +10 with frost, icy burst*, force crit, hb (shintao) and sb (ninja spy) rings, with a sneak dmg of around 20-30. Hand wraps totally own, I do like 11 dmg types when crting, and I could get an extra 1d6 fire when I get the oremis ring.

*When the ice games first came out there was a bug that allowed you to apply the resipies in a particular order that allowed you to get frost and icy burst, they fixed the bug on all weapons other than wraps that already had it done, the bug is impossible now.

I hope my impute helps.

[Zachski]

As a pure 20 monk, you should just about always be using wraps, the only time I use any other weapon type is vorp with kamas and wop with short swords. Oh, and there should be no monk with IC bludgeon, since stunning fist is an auto crit.

Also a bit of advice, if you missed last rasta ice games, next time it comes around you should put icy burst on all of your wraps, the extra 1d6 is totally worth it, sure devils and some other mobs are resistant to it, but the extra 1d6 doesn't hurt.

my biggest dmg output wraps: +1 acid wraps of stun +10 with frost, icy burst*, force crit, hb (shintao) and sb (ninja spy) rings, with a sneak dmg of around 20-30. Hand wraps totally own, I do like 11 dmg types when crting, and I could get an extra 1d6 fire when I get the oremis ring.

*When the ice games first came out there was a bug that allowed you to apply the resipies in a particular order that allowed you to get frost and icy burst, they fixed the bug on all weapons other than wraps that already had it done, the bug is impossible now.

I hope my impute helps.

Not all mobs can be stunned. That's why you need IC: Bludgeon.

[DevilButcher]

Not all mobs can be stunned. That's why you need IC: Bludgeon.

IC Bludgeon only improves your damage by 5%, you might as well get weapon focus Bludgeon insted.

[Zachski]

IC Bludgeon only improves your damage by 5%, you might as well get weapon focus Bludgeon insted.

Not quite correct. What it actually does double your chance to crit.

A fist monk with twice as many crits would actually be dealing a lot more than 5% more DPS, especially with how quickly they attack. On a mob that can't be stunned, this can be a big difference.

[DevilButcher]

Not quite correct. What it actually does double your chance to hit.

A fist monk with twice as many crits would actually be dealing a lot more than 5% more DPS, especially with how quickly they attack. On a mob that can't be stunned, this can be a big difference.

See your cought in your own logic, IF the target can be stun, then monk can use stunning fist and not waste a feat on IC that would be pretty much moot.

And yes getting IC Blunt would only give you an extra chance of 1:20 that 5% basicly the same as getting a +1 to hit.

If your IC made you go from 10% to a 20% chance, then you getting 10% to damage from IC > 5% from weapon focus

[Bunker]

Loot-whoring in the vale???

Ahh. So you find them more effective when running level 14-16 content on your level 20. Gottcha ;)

This is where ninja spy lacks as a prc. Ninja spy gives the benefit of SS yet the best special attacks from the same prc can only be done using wraps.

So basically, ninja spy gives strong advantages on dps but not with a weapon that is suppose to setup for the pre.

Op.....stick with wraps till the devs make sense of giving free weapon proficiency to a class with no.special attacks.

[khaldan]

See your cought in your own logic, IF the target can be stun, then monk can use stunning fist and not waste a feat on IC that would be pretty much moot.

And yes getting IC Blunt would only give you an extra chance of 1:20 that 5% basicly the same as getting a +1 to hit.

If your IC made you go from 10% to a 20% chance, then you getting 10% to damage from IC > 5% from weapon focus

<insert long stream of no's here>

Red nameds and purple nameds can't be stunned. If you can't think of why you want IC:B for bosses, you probably should play the game.

And just to catch you in your own logic: Why does everyone wait for IC, instead of taking WF?

[Zachski]

See your cought in your own logic, IF the target can be stun, then monk can use stunning fist and not waste a feat on IC that would be pretty much moot.

And yes getting IC Blunt would only give you an extra chance of 1:20 that 5% basicly the same as getting a +1 to hit.

If your IC made you go from 10% to a 20% chance, then you getting 10% to damage from IC > 5% from weapon focus

Double chance to crit* by the way. I made a misstype.

And I don't see how I'm caught in my own logic. There are enemies that can be stunned and enemies that can't be stunned. You want both stunning fist and IC: Bludgeon.

By the way, your math is way off. Increasing your chance to crit by 5% (which raises it to 10%) is NOT the same thing as increasing your damage by 5%. Biiiig difference.

[RhapsodieInBlue]

I only have 1 20, so I have to rotate my ransacks when "loot whoring."

Desert -> Vale -> Reavers/Amrath if I feel like using the resources it takes to stay alive out there for long periods of time.

I can run the devil circuit in the vale for rares faster than it takes to reset.

Sorry I don't have 5-8 ToD ready characters like most of you do who can all but solo end game content, but one should not mock someone else's play style.

I just pointed out the pluses of shortswords. I use wraps everywhere else except in the vale.

*yawn*

[CrimsonEagle]

I only have 1 20, so I have to rotate my ransacks when "loot whoring."

Desert -> Vale -> Reavers/Amrath if I feel like using the resources it takes to stay alive out there for long periods of time.

I can run the devil circuit in the vale for rares faster than it takes to reset.

Sorry I don't have 5-8 ToD ready characters like most of you do who can all but solo end game content, but one should not mock someone else's play style.

I just pointed out the pluses of shortswords. I use wraps everywhere else except in the vale.

*yawn*

I dont find much anywhere in the vale that I can not stun. Stun+banishing handwraps = auto banish, no need to rely upon a roll of the shortsword.

Stun/banish>shortwords.

*yawn*

[DevilButcher]

IC:B w/ hand wraps IS equal to getting WF:B w/ handwraps
Ok, fine I'll explain it from how I observe it, so please don't tell me it's BS.

With out IC- you attack 20 times with hand wraps, once will be a critical so it's like attacking 21 times in 20swings

With IC- you attack 20 times with hand wraps, twice will be a critical so it's like attacking 22 times in 20swings

What's the difference? 22-21=1
1 in 20 is the same as 5%.

Now about WF:B
lets say you miss unless you roll 3 or better on a 1d20 roll, if you had weapon focus you will hit on a 4 with a 1d20 roll. That's an increase of hitting 5% more often.

So,
IC:B gives 5% more chance of doubling the damage
WF:B gives a 5% more chance of another attack that would have missed
You see where I am coming from?

IC is not worth getting on a weapon that has a critical of x2 on a 20roll, it needs to be a multiplier of x3 and better or a wider threat rang then a base 5%.

The only advantage taking IC:B~handwraps is you double how often you get criticals and trigger weapon effect connected to that fact.
But since the Monk has an advantage of a way better chance to stunning fist his target rather than waiting for a random 5%~10% critical to come up that's where I call moot on that fact.

I hope this clears up why I see IC:B is not that great a feat for a monk with hand wraps as it is for other classes and weapon choices.

Someone please understand I'm not crazy to think this way....

[khaldan]

IC:B w/ hand wraps IS equal to getting WF:B w/ handwraps
Ok, fine I'll explain it from how I observe it, so please don't tell me it's BS.

With out IC- you attack 20 times with hand wraps, once will be a critical so it's like attacking 21 times in 20swings

With IC- you attack 20 times with hand wraps, twice will be a critical so it's like attacking 22 times in 20swings

What's the difference? 22-21=1
1 in 20 is the same as 5%.

Now about WF:B
lets say you miss unless you roll 3 or better on a 1d20 roll, if you had weapon focus you will hit on a 4 with a 1d20 roll. That's an increase of hitting 5% more often.

So,
IC:B gives 5% more chance of doubling the damage
WF:B gives a 5% more chance of another attack that would have missed
You see where I am coming from?

IC is not worth getting on a weapon that does not have a critical multiplier of x3 and better or a wider threat rang then a base 5%.
The only advantage taking IC:B~handwraps is you double how often you get criticals and trigger weapon effect connected to that fact.
But since the Monk has an advantage of a way better chance to stunning fist his target rather than waiting for a random 5%~10% critical to come up that's where I call moot on that fact.

I hope this clears up why I see IC:B is not that great a feat for a monk with hand wraps as it is for other classes and weapon choices.

Someone please understand I'm not crazy to think this way....

Icy burst shocking burst flaming burst holy burst force burst handwraps of pure good, using a bloodstone.

IC:B is more important by far for those :D

[DevilButcher]

<insert long stream of no's here>
And just to catch you in your own logic: Why does everyone wait for IC, instead of taking WF?
Tha's not catching me in my own logic, Because most people who get IC use weapons that arn't x2 on a 20.

We are so use to taking it with other classes that we use the same logic for a monk with handwraps and hard to break the habbit.

But as I keep saying with hand wraps it's only 5% increse in damage output and doubles activating effect that trigger on criticals. Using a feat to get a 5% increse in damage is ok, but there are other feats that can do that amount as well. Take IC if you feel you have feat space for it. Every 5% adds up right?

[DevilButcher]

Icy burst shocking burst flaming burst holy burst force burst handwraps of pure good, using a bloodstone.

IC:B is more important by far for those :D

Haha, ok you got me I forgot effects that activate on criticals don't have to have the critical double damage. That does make a small difference.
You are right there.

But still it's only going to trigger %5 more often... if that's justifiable sure.
IC:B > WF:B

[khaldan]

Tha's not catching me in my own logic, Because most people who get IC use weapons that arn't x2 on a 20.

We are so use to taking it with other classes that we use the same logic for a monk with handwraps and hard to break the habbit.

But as I keep saying with hand wraps it's only 5% increse in damage output and doubles activating effect that trigger on criticals. Using a feat to get a 5% increse in damage is ok, but there are other feats that can do that amount as well. Take IC if you feel you have feat space for it. Every 5% adds up right?

Look at the post above this. IC:B is a huge dps gain, WF:B isn't, unless you built wrong.

[DevilButcher]

Look at the post above this. IC:B is a huge dps gain, WF:B isn't, unless you built wrong.

Huge dps gain? 1d10cold damage +12 DMG from bloodstone 5% more often = 0.85 more damage on average per swing. No that's not huge dps increse at all...

I'm being fair. I am taking into account what you are telling me. but the numbers seem to say other wise.

[khaldan]

Huge dps gain? 1d10cold damage +12 DMG from bloodstone 5% more often = 0.85 more damage on average per swing. No that's not huge dps increse at all...

1d10 cold+1d10 fire+1d10 shocking+(whatever holy burst and force burst are)+12 is a bit more than .85 damage.

[DevilButcher]

1d10 cold+1d10 fire+1d10 shocking+(whatever holy burst and force burst are)+12 is a bit more than .85 damage.

ok that seems more justifiable

[5.5+5.5+5.5+7+3.5+12]*0.05= 1.95 damage per swing. about twice as good now... but still not even equal to Damage Boost I +2 for 20 sec. lol

Even with uber upgrades at level 20 that still kind or low don't you think? Just admit handwraps IC just does not have the wow effect as other weapons...

[khaldan]

ok that seems more justifiable

[5.5+5.5+5.5+7+3.5+12]*0.05= 1.95 damage per swing. about twice as good now... but still not even equal to Damage Boost I +2 for 20 sec. lol

Even with uber upgrades at level 20 that still kind or low don't you think?

That's before all the other nice stuff(which I probably should have included earlier), like 2d10 fists+str bonus+5 PA, or any monk strikes. Or how crits give ki which gives more monk strikes.

It's a better feat than WF:B, which can be 0% more dps if you hit on a 1.

[DevilButcher]

That's before all the other nice stuff(which I probably should have included earlier), like 2d10 fists+str bonus+5 PA, or any monk strikes. Or how crits give ki which gives more monk strikes.

It's a better feat than WF:B, which can be 0% more dps if you hit on a 1.

Moot~ your getting to worked up.
yes all the other neat stuff you din't include, but it did not matter since it's still the same monk with the same handwraps...

You are really just tring to find anything now... I already said IC:B > WF:B
I don't know what your tring to prove right now?

[Persnoody]

Well with those red and purple named bosses you also have to consider the lvl of fortification they have, there is also a flaw in calculation that I am seeing, the 5%/10% to crit is applied each swing, after each swing the odds are reset, sure 1:20/2:20 average is a good basis to compare 5% with 10% (basically the same thing), but without the IC I've had 4 back to back crits, there is a lvl of random occurrence since each roll is different and has no effect on the next roll. With that said, IC isn't bad (I retract my total distaste), but I just don't feel it is worth taking since most monk builds are feat starved, but everyone has their own play style.

I for one like to have a balanced defense and offence, Shortpop has an unbuffed ac of 60 and can self buff into the the 70's and have been raid buffed into the 80's, and has a unbuffed dex of 42-44 as a finness build so I've got a great attack and reflex mod, and on the side of offense I have a very decent collection of handwraps with a stunning dc of 30 without stunning wraps (I would think thats average for a stunning monk), another thing to add.. I took all 3 healing marks and so far I haven't found any reason to get rid of them. Everyone has their own play style and I am not trying to imply that mine is the best.

Well I see I have gone very off topic, but ehh I feel sharing my incite is better than saying nothing :)

[bandyman1]

I only have 1 20, so I have to rotate my ransacks when "loot whoring."

Desert -> Vale -> Reavers/Amrath if I feel like using the resources it takes to stay alive out there for long periods of time.

I can run the devil circuit in the vale for rares faster than it takes to reset.

Sorry I don't have 5-8 ToD ready characters like most of you do who can all but solo end game content, but one should not mock someone else's play style.

I just pointed out the pluses of shortswords. I use wraps everywhere else except in the vale.

*yawn*

No one was mocking your playstyle. *yawn*

I asked " who's using banishers and smiters at level 20 ? ".

You responded that you do.....

When you're running level 14-16 content.

Nothing wrong with that. My point was, that at endgame content ( which is what most level 20s will be doing ) ...

They're worthless ;).

[Mobeius]

Icy burst shocking burst flaming burst holy burst force burst handwraps of pure good, using a bloodstone.

IC:B is more important by far for those :D

I agreed with most of your comments and gave you +1 Rep for this as a crux of the arguement.

I use +3 Icy Burst, Force Handwraps of Stunning +10 with Force Critical ior +5 Force Burst, Icy Burst with force damage in conjuction with my Holy and Shocking Burst rings as my primary handwraps. I have many other handwraps for differing situations too, like Metalline, Greater Bane, etc...


No one was mocking your playstyle. *yawn*

I asked " who's using banishers and smiters at level 20 ? ".

You responded that you do.....

When you're running level 14-16 content.

Nothing wrong with that. My point was, that at endgame content ( which is what most level 20s will be doing ) ...

They're worthless ;).

I actually still use my +1 Imp Cursespewing HW of Smiting, Banishers I only use when first entering the vale and the subsequent quests.


Truth be told, there are many strategies, play styles, builds, gear, etc... You have to do what works for you and your character. If works for you and you are satisfied, who cares what someone else does? Their style might not work for you.

With that said, WF = Weapon Focus right? If so, I fail to see how a +1 to hit is that much better than many other feat choices? Did they make a change to this feat for DDO recently I am unaware of?

Secondly, I am different, I took Power Critical as well and strongly feel that assists in a great many things I do, including stengthing my void strikes.

[Taimasan]

WF = Weapon Finesse?

[khaldan]

WF = Weapon Finesse?

WF: (insert letter here) is weapon focus.
WF by itself is finesse, although it's generally shortened to just finesse.