Beware! Germans on the Forum! - Know their quirks!

[Noctus]

I recently, again, stumbled into a discussion which got a bit derailed. because of a slight and subtle, yet with noticeable effect, difference in discussion style.


In short:

* Germans take everything at face value. To them someone who cushions his words seems unsure of his own opinion.
Truthfulness and honesty over being nice.

* Americans love to sugarcoat and relativize everything. All the time. If they want to say something that might perhaps possibly in an occasion be uncomfortable to you, they get indirect. They say things they dont mean, and mean things they dont say.
Being nice and super-polite over Truthfulness.





For examples some "american english- what they say" to "german english - what they mean" translations:

"I thing we should reconsider that part" --- "There is a mistake."
"I´m not sure about" --- "I´m against"
"In my opinion" -- "I know"
"There should perhaps be" --- "There has to be"
"How do you do?" --- "Welcome" (trick question, dont answer)
"I dont thing" --- "No."
"This doesnt seem to be" -- "No."
"There might be" -- "There is"
"Perhaps" -- "Definitely"








Original post from me:







It's the tone, some of us Americans are over-sensitive to your bluntness. I'm from the NYC area and appreciate it myself.


There are not really many cultural differences when you cross the big pond. Much less than say when you drive just over the border to the "cheese-eating surrender monkeys" :rolleyes: It is just conversational style. But this is one of the "biggest" cultural differences between The States and Germany. Not in spite of, but precisely because it is so subtle.

* Not being direct to the point and honest is considered bad style in Germany.

* Not trying to politely sugarcoating "unpleasant for the other side" statements is considered bad style in the US. Even up to the concept of "little white lie" (which is unknown in germany - and even will make people upset at you if they found out as you are being untruthful).




For example recently i read an essay from an american professor of finance and he kept interjecting his statements with "i thing" , "in my opinion", "it should be", "most probably". I was just about to dismiss his paper from my relevant-works-stack as he obviously himself wasnt even really sure of his own conclusions, when i remembered that americans always like to cushion everything up. And as he was holding a minority view he went with extra cushioning topping.

His position has merit, yet i almost dismissed it because he wasnt direct to the point and he was relativizeing his statements, instead of saying them "boldly", even as many people on the conference held another opinion.






Companies train their people to be aware of this difference in discussion style:


Germany 4


This segment portrays two of the most common problems that arise when Americans and Germans negotiate. (1) According to Germans, Americans tend to deliver “hype” rather than the data and details the Germans want. From the American point of view, if the customer needs great detail, it will be delivered when they ask for it. (2) German bluntness offends Americans, “This has been a waste of our time.” From the German point of view they are just delivering an honest and accurate evaluation – no “cushioning” is involved in the German, low context style of communication. Americans use conversational cushioning and expect it to be used, even by Germans. This conflict in conversational style can cause great friction in otherwise cooperative business negotiations across the Atlantic.

The lesson here is two-fold – “don’t expect diplomacy” and “deliver details and data.” Try to appreciate German frankness.[1] (http://forums.ddo.com/#_ftn1) It is efficient. The key here is to back up all claims with data and references. Expect the German customers to ask for much more information than typically required in the States. For example, if you make a claim about your market share, show them the data you used to calculate it.

[1] (http://forums.ddo.com/#_ftnref1) Checking the dictionary for the derivation of the word “frank” is quite interesting – apparently bluntness is an historical, cultural trait for Germans.

[Micron]

I'm Czech, thus a stone's throw away, and I had the same problem when I worked for Rheinisch-Westfählisches Elektrizitätswerk aka RWE. When I said something that would be considered a joke in the Czech Republic, my German colleagues would stare at me trying to figure out if I'm mocking them or what the hell I'm actually on about. It's quite common for Czech people to use metaphors, sarcasms and to say things indirectly but to the Germans it probably just seems that we avoid telling the truth. Over the year and a half or so I spent working for them, I don't think any of them ever made me laugh, I mean genuinely, and I'm pretty sure this was mutual. :p Also they drank beer from 0.3l glasses and seldom had more than one, which puzzled me greatly.
Nice people, honest and hard working but I'm not sure I can imagine living among them, hanging out etc.

We're talking the Ruhrgebiet here, I've been told that people are different in other parts of Germany but I haven't had a chance to find out myself.

[GunboatDiplomat]

OP I wouldn't read too much into the cultural differences. Speaking from an "anglo-saxon" perspective its very common for people in our cultures to criticise people "not for what they say but how they say it." This is rarely the case imo, certainly in business where anglo saxon culture can be every bit as blunt as german and often a lot more aggressive. It is usually "what you say" not "how you say it" that annoys people, despite their claims to the contrary.

For example, theres no fundamental difference in anglo saxon culture between saying:

"Failure to pay all monies due within seven days will result in an application for court proceedings withoutt further notice" and "Pay me the fracking money you owe or I'll sue your ass off"

Or: "The service your company is providing is terrible" and "If you guys don't sort this out I'm going to chuck your machines out the fracking window" (I actually used this line recently at work)

Oh and btw we don't say 'frack'...

[Sabberlodd]

I think this has more to do with communication skills than cultural origin.

I am German and your short summary doesn't applyto me at all. In my opinion you can be truthful and honest and nice at the same time.

I would never tell a business partner that she wasted my time, no matter if she's German or not.
Nor would I interpret phrases like "I think" or "in my opinion" as unsecurity, it just shows to me that the person is aware that her opinion might not be the only valid/true opinion.

Coincidentally I read an article (http://blog.emergenceconsulting.net/2010/08/the-similarity-bias-one-reason-why-communications-clash-at-work.html) on this topic a couple of days ago which basically sums up my opinion.

[Micron]

Wow, this Cheri is intriguing. I know many people on these forums who keep going on about pile-ons, drama queens et cetera, I think they could benefit from this webinar of hers:
Slackers, Victims, and Drama Queens - Dealing with Difficult Personalities at Work (http://blog.emergenceconsulting.net/2010/09/webinar-slackers-victims-and-drama-queens-dealing-with-difficult-personalities-at-work.html)

Just replace "workplace" with server, "co-worker" with player etc. Sort of like this:


Webinar Description:

Do you find yourself frustrated when dealing with difficult personalities on your server? Have you ever been unsure of how to respond when someone's play style is built upon role playing and flower sniffing? Whether your teammate is a difficult person or you are just annoyed with the person who sits across the corridor, working with unpleasant people can turn a great zerg into a chore. But how can you keep yourself sane in the face of someone else's inappropriate gear? How can you help someone see they are "out of line" in a way that gets them to listen?

[Sabberlodd]

Haha, I was thinking exactly the same thing when I went to the site to copy the link I posted.

She says a technique to handle drama queens is the "stink eye".



1. Immediately stop what you were saying and turn to face them.
2. Stare directly at them for 4-5 seconds. Be silent, but your facial expression can express mild annoyance.
3. Turn back to the group and continue on as if nothing had happened.


There's also a verbal version of the "stink eye" which is more appropriate for DDO gamers and includes turning to the person and saying with incredulity "Really? You really think it’s OK to act that way in our group? How strange!”

I have to try this if I ever meet a drama queen!

[Aussir]

OP I wouldn't read too much into the cultural differences. Speaking from an "anglo-saxon" perspective its very common for people in our cultures to criticise people "not for what they say but how they say it." This is rarely the case imo, certainly in business where anglo saxon culture can be every bit as blunt as german and often a lot more aggressive. It is usually "what you say" not "how you say it" that annoys people, despite their claims to the contrary.

For example, theres no fundamental difference in anglo saxon culture between saying:

"Failure to pay all monies due within seven days will result in an application for court proceedings withoutt further notice" and "Pay me the fracking money you owe or I'll sue your ass off"

Or: "The service your company is providing is terrible" and "If you guys don't sort this out I'm going to chuck your machines out the fracking window" (I actually used this line recently at work)

Oh and btw we don't say 'frack'...

No, you guys say something resembling "fook" or some such, which cracks me up completely :D *waves from somewhere in Co. Wexford*

And yes, I've noticed the thing with "how you say it". This poses all kinds of problems for me as I tend to blurt out things without fluffing them out. I'm more prone to say "you look like a clown in those clothes" than "I think you should wear something else".

Having lived for over 2 years in Germany and having a German as a house mate, I know how they are and how often I would find myself wondering if they just lack tact. I came to the conclusion that they just tend to take things at face value and don't go around "stepping on eggs" to say things. They just things as they are, no embellishments. This can also some across as lack of tack or sensitivity, aggressiveness or flame baiting.

I see clearly how, in these forums where the vast majority is affected by "how things are said", such a thing than turn discussions into a flame fest even when there was no intention to start one. This can also be very bad to people that say things as they are, without cushioning them as they can be wrongly labeled as trolls, flamers, etc.

I don't know what is Turbine's stance on this, as cultural differences can and do influence the style of posting. For example, I like people that speak things directly, without going about in little circles to make them pretty so this doesn't phase me at all. At the same time, I've noticed that the lack of knowledge about cultural backgrounds, often leads to people mislabeling others as trolls and flamers. I am, myself, at risk of being labeled a flamer because of the way I "speak" and it's frustrating.

[Karlak]

Interesting read. 'Course, there's probably widely different styles of communication within a country as well, but it's interesting to read your experiences.

Regardless of nationality, I find it's usually a good idea to try to include suggestions for improvements in any criticism.

[Natashaelle]

I find it's usually a good idea to try to include suggestions for improvements in any criticism.

No it isn't !!!

---

hehe :p

[stoerm]

Often non-natives come across as blunt or even coarse simply because they don't have the vocabulary to use subtleties, or get their vocab and phrases from popular media. Having absorbed some Anglo-American influence it often makes me cringe to hear my countrymen make conversation in English. Sometimes it's just their monosyllabic "conversation": "No". "Yes", other times the use of the f-word in polite conversation.

Disclaimer: I'm not German but also European.

[GreyRevan]

For example, I like people that speak things directly, without going about in little circles to make them pretty so this doesn't phase me at all. At the same time, I've noticed that the lack of knowledge about cultural backgrounds, often leads to people mislabeling others as trolls and flamers. I am, myself, at risk of being labeled a flamer because of the way I "speak" and it's frustrating.
Absolutely agree with you! That's why we have been given our own, separate forums :D

[Aussir]

Absolutely agree with you! That's why we have been given our own, separate forums :D

I see you like Paulo Coelho, or at least, The Manual of the Warrior of Light :)
I would recognize the sentences you have on your signature anywhere as I own the book.

And yeah, I think I'll stick to "our" forum because on the rest, I feel as if I'm in a desert full of quick sand and one wrong step will kill me... <_<


Often non-natives come across as blunt or even coarse simply because they don't have the vocabulary to use subtleties, or get their vocab and phrases from popular media. Having absorbed some Anglo-American influence it often makes me cringe to hear my countrymen make conversation in English. Sometimes it's just their monosyllabic "conversation": "No". "Yes", other times the use of the f-word in polite conversation.

Disclaimer: I'm not German but also European.

Well, that's the thing... I do have the vocabulary, English is my second language since I was a little kid. The problem lies in the fact that I wasn't taught to go around masquerading my opinions in order not to offend more sensitive people. I was brought up to be honest and direct.
I do know how to be courteous (for example, eat a little and say I'm not very hungry if I'm invited for dinner and I'm stuck with some food I hate) but I wasn't taught to go around saying "You look good but I think that maybe this would look even better" instead of "You look horrid in that".
This is a major difference in communication that can end pretty badly because a lot of people in this forum don't know the difference between a troll/flamer and someone who simply doesn't go around beautifying what they say.

[GreyRevan]

I see you like Paulo Coelho, or at least, The Manual of the Warrior of Light :)
I would recognize the sentences you have on your signature anywhere as I own the book.

I do like P.Coelho, besides Hesse, Castaneda, Bach etc., and sentences from the Manual in my sig are here to confirm my life/forum code: no one is perfect and everyone can learn new things and improve her/himself if there is will to do it :)


And yeah, I think I'll stick to "our" forum because on the rest, I feel as if I'm in a desert full of quick sand and one wrong step will kill me... <_<
Agree again! Few people here understood some very clearly presented facts - not to mention sarcasm and read-between-the-lines in some posts of mine, including Forum Master, who sent me an owl :D

PS Give my love to Brida if you happen to run into her, there on the Emerald Isle ;)

[Aussir]

I do like P.Coelho, besides Hesse, Castaneda, Bach etc., and sentences from the Manual in my sig are here to confirm my life/forum code: no one is perfect and everyone can learn new things and improve her/himself if there is will to do it :)

I take it you mean Hermann Hesse?
If so, my absolute favorite book from him has this quote on it ;):

“The bird fights its way out of the egg. The egg is the world.
Who would be born first must destroy a world. The bird flies to God. The God's name is Abraxas”
I also like Hesse's "Pictor's Metaqmorphoses and Other Fantasies" from which, Lulu is my favorite story.


Agree again! Few people here understood some very clearly presented facts - not to mention sarcasm and read-between-the-lines in some posts of mine, including Forum Master, who sent me an owl :D

Oh, I know how that goes... long before I started playing DDO, I was playing other MMO's already and believe me, sarcasm, in-between-the-lines and being blunt, are things that seem to fly past our "cousins" and are only perceived as trolling/flaming.


PS Give my love to Brida if you happen to run into her, there on the Emerald Isle ;)

Haven't seen her this time but Veronica sends her regards ;)

[GreyRevan]

I take it you mean Hermann Hesse?
Yeah, it was Him :) So, to add some more German quirks, as this is an appropriate thread for it, here are some of his quotes (http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/1113469.Hermann_Hesse), a food for thought for trolls/flame-throwers:

"Every man is more than just himself; he also represents the unique, the very special and always significant and remarkable point at which the world's phenomena intersect, only once in this way, and never again."

"If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part of yourself. What isn't part of ourselves doesn't disturb us."

"Three things can not hide for long: the Moon, the Sun and the Truth."

"People with courage and character always seem sinister to the rest."


Haven't seen her this time but Veronica sends her regards ;)
Brida's story is, in some weird way, my own life's episode. Luckily, stumbling upon Two Paths, made her not discover Life the hard way, as Veronica did...

[quintuss]

Well, i can only speak for myself. I am german and suffering from a phenomenon our english teacher used to name "go,get,give english". ;)

He meant that often in discussions we tend to go back to the most simple words we learned because it's sometimes difficult to think about a topic and at the same time struggle for the best words to express your opinion on it in a foreign language.
So instead of saying "That is very interesting but i'd like to add a different point of view" its easier to just say "No, i don't think so".

That might make people think that i'm often very blunt. But really i'm not.

At least when using the ingame chat, i try to help myself with the excessive use of smileys to soften what i say. ;)

[darthtidgit]

i am british but i am also welsh, i speak go, get, give english every day, its called getting straight to the point with no bull **** :D

[Aussir]

i am british but i am also welsh, i speak go, get, give english every day, its called getting straight to the point with no bull **** :D

Same on the "go, get, give english" part. I never saw what's the point of going in little circles to say things.
If people don't have the stomach to take things to their face, well... get some Rennie or Eno to help digest. :D