Drow Rgr12/Pal6/Rog2 - Will it work?

[-Zyxas-]

I currently play a 14 Pal/ 6 Rgr for good TWF DPS, and I really like the character because of the Pally saves and other abilities. They can self heal somewhat, but I feel they're still missing something.
So this is the build I've had brewing for a few weeks... I haven't thought of EVERYTHING, but I do believe there isn't anything I did wrong that will ruin the build. The idea behind it is to be a good melee DPS person with decent defenses (saves and Evasion to name two notable ones) and do traps so you don't need to use up a party slot for a trapmonkey. They will also be able to cast (mainly buffing) spells once they get a +3 or more WIS item. Another note, I'm starting the character at level 4 because of veteran status, the skills at the beginning may look bad. Anyway, here it is:



Basic information -
Drow
Ranger 12/Paladin 6/Rogue 2
Lawful Good


Starting Stats (28-point, also TR'ed stats) -
28-Point/30/32
STR 14 /14/14
DEX 14 /14/16
CON 14 /14/14
INT 14 /14/14
WIS 8 / 8/ 8
CHA 14 /16/16
All level up points will go into strength. I doubt 14 strength will hurt the character too much since there are Str-based rogues running around with 14 base Strength. It's not ideal but it should still work well. They will get +2 to DEX and CHA from enhancements.


Final unbuffed skills -
Skill:Rank/Enhancements/Stat bonus/Racial/Feat=Total
DD:23/1/3/0/0=27
OL:4/0/2/0/0=6 <- a note, I will ALWAYS be playing with a Sorcerer who has Knock
Srch:23/6/2/2/0=33
Spt:4/0/-1/2/0=5
Bal:23/0/3/0/0=26
Jmp:7/0/2/0/0=9 (+30 Jump Spell is basically maxed, this is without modified stats)
Tmb:4/0/3/0/0=7
MS:4/0/3/0/0=7
Hide:4/0/3/0/0=7
UMD:23/0/3-4/0/3=29-30 (depending on if there are TR's)
(My shortened versions of the skill names: Disable Device=DD, Open Lock=OL, Search=Srch, Spot=Spt, Balance=Bal, Jump=Jmp, Tumble=Tmb, Move Silently=MS, Hide=Hide, UMD=UMD)


Enhancements -
Drow Melee Damage I&II (6Pts)
Drow Melee Attack I&II (6Pts)
Drow Racial Toughness I&II (3Pts)
Drow Perception I-III (6Pts)
Rogue Disable Device I (1Pt)
Paladin Toughness I&II (3Pts)
Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I (1Pt)
Paladin Extra Smite Evil I&II (3Pts)
Paladin Knight of the Chalice I (4Pts)
Paladin Courage of Good I (1Pt)
Paladin Energy of the Templar I (1Pt)
Paladin Divine Sacrifice I (1Pt)
Paladin Charisma I&II (6Pts)
Paladin Exalted Smite I (1Pt)
Paladin Resistance of Good I (1Pt)
Paladin Bulwark of Good I (1Pt)
Ranger Favored Damage I-II (3Pts)
Ranger Sprint Boost I-IV (10Pts)
Ranger Dexterity I&II(+?) (6Pts)
Ranger Tempest I&II (6Pts)
Ranger Skill Boost I-III (6Pts)
Ranger Search I&II (3Pts)
Ranger Energy of the Wild I (1Pt)
Total = 80 Points


Level Up Progression

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skills: +4 to DD, OL, Srch, Spt, Jmp, Tmb, Bal, MS, Hide, and UMD
Feat: Toughness

Level 2 (Paladin)
Skills: +1 to DD and UMD (double points for each)

Level 3 (Paladin)
Skills: +1 to DD and UMD
Feat: Dodge
Granted Feats: Divine Grace and Lay On Hands

Level 4 (Ranger)
Skills: +1 to DD, Bal, and UMD, +2 to Srch (2 points in each of those skills)
Favored Enemy: Undead
Granted Feats: Bow Strength and Wild Empathy
Increase Stat: STR

Level 5 (Ranger)
Skills: +1 DD, Bal, and UMD, +2 Srch
Granted Feats: Rapid Shot and Two Weapon Fighting

Level 6 (Ranger)
Skills: +1 DD, Bal, Jmp, UMD, and Srch
Feat: Mobility
Granted Feats: Diehard

Level 7 (Ranger)
Skills: +1 DD, Bal, Jmp, UMD, and Srch

Level 8 (Ranger)
Skills: +1 DD and UMD, +2 Balance (4 pts)
Favored Enemy: Giant
Increase Stat: STR

Level 9 (Ranger)
Skills: +1 DD, Bal, and UMD, +2 Srch
Feat: Spring Attack
Granted Feats: ITWF and Manyshot

Level 10 (Paladin)
Skills: +1 DD and UMD
Granted Feats: Aura of Courage, Divine Health, and Fear Immunity

Level 11 (Ranger)
Skills: +1 DD and UMD, +2 Bal
Granted Feat: Improved Wild Empathy

Level 12 (Ranger)
Skills: +1 DD, Bal, and UMD, +2 Srch
Feat: Improved Critical: Pierce
Increase Stat: STR

Level 13 (Ranger)
Skills: +1 DD and UMD, +2 Bal
Granted Feat: Evasion

Level 14 (Ranger)
Skills: +1 DD, Bal, and UMD, +2 Srch
Favored Enemy: Evil Outsider

Level 15 (Ranger)
Skills: +1 DD, Bal, and UMD, +2 Srch
Feat: Power Attack
Granted Feats: GTWF, Precise Shot, and Improved Precise Shot

Level 16 (Ranger)
Skills: +1 DD, Bal, Jmp, Srch, and UMD
Increase Stat: STR

Level 17 (Paladin)
Skills: +1 DD and Srch
Granted Feat: Turn Undead

Level 18 (Paladin)
Skills: +1 DD and Srch
Feat: Skill Focus: UMD

Level 19 (Paladin)
Skills: +1 DD and Srch
Granted Feat: Remove Disease

Level 20 (Rogue)
Skills: +1 DD and Srch, +4 Bal and UMD
Granted Feat: a repeat of Evasion
Increase Stat: STR


I believe this build will be fun to play. The only two levels that I don't get a stat increase or feat are level 2 and level 7, although I'm going to skip level 1-3 and at level 7 I get a ranger spell. Does anyone know if the small gaps in Search will affect the character much? Any other advice is also welcomed.

[-Zyxas-]

Looking for some advice yet...

[Mercureal]

My comments in point form:

- Yes, you get 80 AP in total

- For favoured enemies I'd suggest undead, giants and evil outsiders. Undead aren't as prevalent at higher levels, so you might want to switch them out for something else later. There's a variety of choices, but no one enemy type that's as common. People often take elementals or constructs, who both are harder to hurt than most mobs. Aberrations are another popular choice, mainly for beholders.

- Your Spot skill is far too low. There's no point taking trap skills if you can't spot the traps, unless you're counting on either always having another party member with spot, or on memorizing the location of every trap.

- Paladin Courage of Good isn't a great aura enhancement to take. I'd suggest Bulwark of Good - bonuses to save against fear are of limited usefulness.

- You can't take both Rogue Search and Ranger Search enhancements, taking one line rules out the other.

- A few choices are questionable: Rogue Balance 1 doesn't do much for you, and Ranger Skill boost IV costs you 4 AP for only +1 to your skills for 20 seconds, and you ignore other enhancements that could boost your damage, like Paladin Exalted Smite, or Ranger Favoured Enemy Damage.

Overall, it does look fun to play, and that's really the point of this game. You don't need to squeeze out every bit of efficiency in your character unless you really want to.

[tkneip1874]

here is just an idea im throwing out to you. you dont so much need 2 lvls of rog for evasion as you get it from 12 ranger. i do see you took at 20 to maximize skill points which is not a bad idea but also look at 7 pal 1 rog. i beleive you can take the second line of enhancements for aura saves and ac. just my 2cp (which is actually worth about 1 in this economy...)

[-Zyxas-]

My comments in point form:

- Yes, you get 80 AP in total

- For favoured enemies I'd suggest undead, giants and evil outsiders. Undead aren't as prevalent at higher levels, so you might want to switch them out for something else later. There's a variety of choices, but no one enemy type that's as common. People often take elementals or constructs, who both are harder to hurt than most mobs. Aberrations are another popular choice, mainly for beholders.

- Your Spot skill is far too low. There's no point taking trap skills if you can't spot the traps, unless you're counting on either always having another party member with spot, or on memorizing the location of every trap.

- Paladin Courage of Good isn't a great aura enhancement to take. I'd suggest Bulwark of Good - bonuses to save against fear are of limited usefulness.

- You can't take both Rogue Search and Ranger Search enhancements, taking one line rules out the other.

- A few choices are questionable: Rogue Balance 1 doesn't do much for you, and Ranger Skill boost IV costs you 4 AP for only +1 to your skills for 20 seconds, and you ignore other enhancements that could boost your damage, like Paladin Exalted Smite, or Ranger Favoured Enemy Damage.

Overall, it does look fun to play, and that's really the point of this game. You don't need to squeeze out every bit of efficiency in your character unless you really want to.

1. Thank you.

2. Again thank you. I'll start with undead, then take giant, then Evil Outsider.

3. Even though I'll miss some traps, I know most of them. I do NOT feel that spot is an issue, as I'm also careful and won't run into the traps.... (If I do, saves and evasion.)

4. Paladin Courage of Good I is required for Knight of the Chalice I. End of discussion.

5. Ok, I'll fix it.

6. Yes I disagree with Balance, I threw it in because there was nothing better. Do you really think I should take off Skill Boost IV, and if so should I put on Favored Damage I+II and Bulwark of Good? I agree with having Exalted Smite, it's just that I forgot about it when I was looking up the enhancements in the Compendium. Favored enemy enhancements don't do much in my opinion (yes some but not enough... I'll consider it when I redo the enhancements)

7. Yeah I know it sounds fun, but do you think it'll be efficient enough for endgame/raids/epic?

Thanks for your input.

[krud]

These are just a few tweaks. Nothing major, but something to consider.

You could drop 4 points of dex and put the points into cha. You won't need it for twf since you are 12 ranger. You will lose 2 reflex save, but gain it right back from paladin divine grace, along with +2 to fort and will save. It will also boost your umd, and help your LoHs a little bit.

You could even drop 2 points of con and put it into strength. With a higher cha, as outlined above, you might be able to switch sf:umd for another toughness feat to make up for the lower con. Or just keep the con and drop sf:umd for the extra toughness once you get a shroud cha skill item.

[Mercureal]

I haven't run epic, so I can't tell you anything about that. In my experience from the other high-level content (Shroud, Vision of Destruction, Hound of Xoriat, Reaver's Reach), you should be fine, though as is probably obvious I'm hardly expert. Effectiveness at those levels is as much about gear as it is build.

I'd say that the following are some of the generic benchmarks you should be looking for to successfully run the quests I mention above.

- HP of 400 or above
- To-hit bonus of +44 or so
- Sustainable damage bonus, meaning from weapon +, Strength, feats and enhancements, of around 30

I'm going based on my character, who isn't a powerhouse by any means, but contributes just fine to those quests/raids. I started running Shroud when I had HP in the low 300s and could get through it, but I died a lot. I'm at 417 now and I generally get through raids without dying, assuming I play smart and with good healing coverage in case of a bit of bad luck.

All of the above included gear: I have the Minos Helm, a belt of Greater False life, a CON +6 belt and gloves of +6 STR. And good (but not great) weapons, including what's needed to get through boss damage resistance.


Re: Point 6, I won't belabour it but I'll mention it once more. You spend 6 AP to get Ranger Skill Boost III, and another 4 AP for RSB IV that only gives you an additional +1. The reality of higher levels is that you won't be using skills a lot. There aren't many quests with traps, and when there are you probably won't need 1 more point of search or disable. Of the skills you listed, RSB doesn't really make a difference, except *maybe* UMD on occasion. For those same 4 AP, you could get 2 more points of damage against your FEs, or +3 damage to sneak attacks, or Rogue Damage Boost for situational +3 damage, or Rogue Haste Boost for situational +20% attack speed. All of which are going to more valuable to you at the higher levels than a situational +1 to your search and disable device skills.

Okay, maybe I belaboured it a little.

[-Zyxas-]

Ok, so now I fixed the enhancements some more (Took off Skill Boost IV, added Bulwark I and Favored Damage I+II). I calculated the ending HP for the character and it can get up to 465 fully equipped, although some items aren't reasonable so it'll probably sit at 445 by downgrading the Superior False Life to Greater, or maybe an even 400 HP without a greensteel HP item either. krud - I do need the dex, maybe not 16 but I need at least 13 for prereq feats for Tempest I. I think I'll keep the stats; I don't feel like using a tome especially really early on.

[krud]

krud - I do need the dex, maybe not 16 but I need at least 13 for prereq feats for Tempest I. I think I'll keep the stats; I don't feel like using a tome especially really early on.
Then drop enough to hit the prerqs and put the points into cha. You could start at 14dex, 14cha.

[-Zyxas-]

Then drop enough to hit the prerqs and put the points into cha. You could start at 14dex, 14cha.
That's actually a good idea lol I didn't even think of that. Fixed.

[drsmooth]

Definitely a workable build. I would probably front-load the Paladin levels, as you can skimp on Rogue skills a bit at the lower levels. You could lower Dex a bit as you get the TWF line for free regardless of Dex. Rogue Haste Boost is also too handy to pass up.

Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Male
(6 Paladin / 2 Rogue / 12 Ranger)
Hit Points: 310
Spell Points: 160

BAB: 19/19/24/2929
Fortitude: 20
Reflex: 22
Will: 10

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 16 23
Dexterity 14 21
Constitution 14 16
Intelligence 12 14
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 12 16

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Dodge

Level 2 (Paladin)

Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Mobility

Level 4 (Paladin)

Level 5 (Paladin)

Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Spring Attack

Level 7 (Paladin)

Level 8 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Giant

Level 9 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons

Level 10 (Ranger)

Level 11 (Ranger)

Level 12 (Ranger)
Feat: (Favored Enemy) Favored Enemy: Construct
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 13 (Ranger)

Level 14 (Ranger)

Level 15 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack

Level 16 (Ranger)

Level 17 (Ranger)

Level 18 (Ranger)
Feat: (Selected) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting

Level 19 (Ranger)

Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Ranger Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack II
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Elven Enchantment Resistance I
Enhancement: Follower of Vulkoor
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Attack II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage I
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage II
Enhancement: Ranger Favored Damage III
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest I
Enhancement: Ranger Tempest II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attaack Training I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma II
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity I
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity II
Enhancement: Ranger Dexterity III
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning I

[-Zyxas-]

drsmooth - in my opinion that is terrible. I need the 12 int from the start to have enough skills instead of waiting for the tome. The Paladin levels can wait, the first two are right away for the saves and the third is a bit later for immunities, the rest are perfectly fine sitting at the end. There NEED to be two ranger levels fairly early on so I have TWF, which is the point of the build. And the dodge/mobility/spring attack can wait because they're mainly for tempest which I don't get at level 6-8 anyway. I'd prefer not having to get +2 tomes, as the best way to get them is via the DDO Store and if you buy enough tomes for all the people you make you'll be broke... I also want some extra trap ability on this build, which is why I took some enhancements for that. Also, I really do NOT need that much Dex... I already fixed the base Dex, which you said I messed up on and you put the same number... You kind of ruined the point of this build working well over all of its levels. The only thing I learned from you is to consider Haste Boost.

Thank you to Mercureal and krud for giving constructive criticizm instead of taking it apart and puting it back together...